The sector of individual decision to be self insured is very small. It has already been proven in many studies. Majority of the uninsured still like to be insured (at a much affordable rate). It is simply see how large of a pool that a newly formed National insurance pool can be formed to balance out the sick and healthy, while remaining in the black. By forcing the group to be public or goverment backed, the group can then retain the not-for-profit to offer an alternative to that of the current private insurances.

What is stopping the insurance company forming a similar group????? If you don't want to compete against the public pool, then form your own or create an even better service group. WHAT ARE they scared of??? Especially when the insurance companies are continuing to insist that government can't run anything....

Keep in mind there is no option for me to take the money my employer pays for health insurance and buy my own plan or do without, so the numbers are currently skewed. If my employer gave me the money it pays toward health insurance, I could buy my own catastrophic plan with a high deductible, pocket the rest in an emergency fund that collects interest and have enough money to cover the high deductible in a year while paying cash for a doctors visit of a couple hundred dollars.

I'm just shocked that the liberal MSNBC even covered this aspect of health coverage as it's been a discussion point for a long time.

thturd - I have not been able to find any group claiming to identify the number of self insureds. But regardless, I do not believe those that can not afford insurance today will be able to afford what the government would offer. United Healthcare made $3 billion in 2008 on $81 billion in sales, roughly 4%. Not alot of room to come up with a low cost plan for the poor. I'm not defending them, I'm only saying there is not a lot of room to compete or for the government to have a plan without major deficits. I think the insurance companies are afraid of the same thing most of us our afraid of - it can't be done as proposed.

Reduce the cost of healthcare- fix existing federal programs - bring on torte reform - open insurance sales - develop wellness programs. 1/10th the cost and probably most effective.

When insurance companies want us to all be insured - we are. All motorists must carry insurance. All drivers must wear seatbelts......

No one asked folks how they felt about that! But now, as the insurance companies and healthcare providers reap record profits - they don't want universal coverage. So - they tout the virtues of opting out of insurance because they know the unisured would be less profitable to take on.

Your article seems to do the same. Looks like the mainstream media is quietly trying to keep their advertising $$ by taking the side of the insurance companies.

All bought and paid for - the media. too. Sigh.....

I don't want government insurance. I don't want private insurance. I don't like insurance. I think insurance drives up costs. I believe that forced insurance (of any kind) is wrong.

I will not participate.

DeeToo - Motorist are required to carry insurance to protect other motorists that may be harmed, not neccessarily to protect us. Seatbelts were a big issue, but again when public safety is at stake, generally the law will provide.

Although I would agree with you if insurance companies were fighting this legislation, but it appears organizations like United Healthcare and AARP are supporting it. Forcing all Americans to have health insurance will probably boost sales at most insurance companies.

Gary - do you have car insurance? Do you wear a seatbelt?

My sister's employer drop group coverage in favor of a stipend so that each employee could buy their own private policy. My sister can't insure her daughter who has a kidney disease that does not exist on either side of the family. Luckily her father works for the government so he can cover his child. The best my sister could do was a policy with a $5000 deductible that resets every calender year. In October of last year she had emergency surgery and was out almost $5K for something that again no one in our family has every had. When the condition came back in January she spend several hours in the hospital explaining that she didn't have a $5000 retainer to give them. They argued with her even though she was in so much pain she was heaving. They eventually did the surgery a second time and now she's on the hook for another almost $4000. Sister hasn't been able to see her primary care physician because they demand $ up front and all her extra $ is going to the hospital. She doesn't live in a mansion, have a big screen tv or designer anything.

Going without health insurance is great if you like stealing from others to cover your costs in the event of large bills. It also requires health insurers to undergo expensive background checks and denying coverage to pre-existing conditions to prevent such deadbeats from jumping onto insurance only when they need it, creating losses for the insurers. Finally, it also encourages insurers to undertake selective recruiting to avoid such deadbeats altogether!

The latest poll numbers for Obamacare are showing just how much support the President has from the population.

Intensity has been with the opposition from the beginning of the public debate. Currently, among all voters 23% Strongly Favor the legislative effort and 43% are Strongly Opposed.

All in all only 41% of America actually believes that Obamacare is the answer to reforming health care. Looks to me like the plan needs to be written by the average American instead of out of touch groups who want socialized medicine.

My family is one that has chosen not to have conventional insurance. We are braking out of the poverty level but would not be able to if we had to pay insurance premiums. We are very healthy and don't run to the doctor unless it is really needed. I am an emergency health care professional and I see people who are on the government dole or even with regular insurance go to the hospital for simple things like a nose bleed because they aren't paying the bill. Unless there in an incentive to care for yourself and use discretion, health care costs will continue to rise.

I think seat belt laws are stupid, but I wear one because I believe it is safer.

I only carry liability insurance for my car to cover the damage and injury to others (not myself). In this regard I believe that immunizations should be mandatory -- but not medical insurance.

Charles - United Healthcare would lose a lot of their supplemental coverage clients - their gravy - if all had better insurance. Their rates would be controlled, and their profits would drop. AARP directly works with United Healthcare providing that insurance. United Healthcare is their Medicare partner - so they want United to stay happy.

Public saftey is at stake when people with contagious illnesses are not properly treated, when kids come to school sick, co-workers come to work ill, sneezing and spreading germs....

My safety is also at risk if every person without insurance ends up in the emergency room instead of preventing illness with their physician. I can't get emergency care for a real emergency while they get their cold treated. And when they can't afford a real illness - what then? Ignore them? No. We all end up paying for them instead.

50 nations in this world have beeter ranked healthcare than us. How are they so smart and we are not? Why is it that they can manage this and we are too dumb? If they can regulate their healthcare industries (and they are structured many ways - some nationalized, some single payer, some "exchanges" with a private option as proposed here, or very highly regulated cost controlled privately insured), why is it impossible for us to get it done?

I personally think this country can do anything it sets its mind to. The problem is not feasability, but getting people to focus on how to do it, not on how to shoot it down. We should be trying to improve proposals so we can make this happen - not tear them apart so we can destroy a chance to join the other leaders of the world in caring for our people.

Sister hasn't been able to see her primary care physician because they demand $ up front and all her extra $ is going to the hospital.

liz-294151 - I am not sure where you live, but hospitals and doctors cannot turn people away due to inability to pay, this is against the law. The most the Doctor can ask for is the co-pay on entry to the facility.

The latest healthcare bill (Baucus) proposes that it will be mandatory to have insurance. If you don't comply you can spend a year in jail, or be fined $25,000.00!! So much for the folks who are young, healthy and perhaps do not want to buy insurance........you won't have a choice! Welcome to the new Republic of Obama!

It's unknown how many of the nearly 50 million uninsured in the United States voluntarily go without coverage.

So let's recount. It's gone from 45 million to 47 million to 50 million to 30 million to 29 million...

....And now it looks like we're back to "50 million" again. What's the deal?

Obama can dispute this healthcare is just another tax on the middle class but when he takes away the middle classes's tax exemption for insurance premiums, 401K, and health savings, the government gets more tax money!

Truthfully, how can they force someone who shows no source of income into paying for insurance? A lot of these people work for cash and they can't trace that income so how can they figure out what they'd owe? They can't and will no doubt hand them free health insurance!

They can pay for my health insurance in jail, if they really dare send me there for that. And since I will make myself poor ---- well you can't squeeze blood from a turnip!

benramz2 doctors in private practice don't have to see anyone and they have every legal right to demand payment before they deliver services. If you have a $5000 deductible, they can demand that mean you have to pay 100% of cost up to that $5000 before they will will accept you.

The only place a doctor has to treat you is in the emergency room and good luck with that one when you need non emergency care. Walk in to an emergency room, ask for a mammogram and see what happens.

One thing that no one seems to be mentioning is that part of young people opting out of health insurance is an unintended consequence of bankruptcy "reform" and the recession.

The financial and for-profit medical industries were among the loudest voices advocating for bankruptcy reform. They wanted to make it harder to declare bankruptcy and when you did, they wanted to be able to claim more and more of your assets, especially your house. They spend millions on lobbying and got what they wanted --- or did they?

Last year 60% of all bankruptcies were caused by unanticipated medical expenses (and 40% of the people declaring bankruptcy for this reason had health insurance.) But housing prices had fallen to the point that the banks got the houses back and the for-profit medical industry got virtually nothing.

But a new class of irresponsible young people has arisen from the "new" bankruptcy laws and the recession. They graduate from college and the jobs they thought would be there 4 or 5 years ago are simply not there. They owe a lot in student loans. They are back home living with Mom and Dad (I know of a bunch of them myself.) So they don't have their dream job, but they have no assets (except a beer bong, a car and a cell phone) and lots of debts. They have no house to lose and no plans to stay in their current job any longer than they have to. Forgetting about insurance is a no-brainer. If something happens, they just declare bankruptcy. If nothing happens, they probably declare bankruptcy anyway. After all, what do they have to lose if they don't have anything?

Not the financial and for-profit medical industries are at it again. Behind the curtain, they are again lobbying for bankruptcy reform. Not they want to forbid bankrupting out of certain types of loans (including student loans) and they want to be able to attach 401k's and social security checks (including future checks.) Hmmmmm .....

Charles P said:  Therefore lets fix Medicare/Medicaid, allow insurance companies to sell in all states direct to insureds, impliment torte reform, and develop wellness programs. And lastly and most important reduce the current cost of health care.

Very well said.  I agree with you 100%.  I am in the bracket that cannot afford health insurance.  My employer does not offer coverage and I have pre-existing conditions that make the cost staggering.  When you get down to it, a lot of folks in my position have a choice between paying our bills and eating or paying for insurance.  I would love to be able to make enough money to pay the $800/month premium, but I just don't.  Those of you who have coverage through work should really check with your HR departments to see what they are forking out for you every month.  You'd be surprised at how expensive health insurance is.

ABC News Teddy Davis reports:

The debate over whether the federal government should require all Americans to carry health insurance is heating up.

The latest spark is a letter that Thomas Barthold, the chief of staff to the nonpartisan Joint Committee on Taxation, sent Thursday to Sen. John Ensign, R-Nev.

Given that the health-care bill written by Finance Committee Chairman Max Baucus contains a $1,900 fee (or excise tax) for not buying health insurance, Ensign wanted to know what would happen if an American didn’t pay the penalty.

In a handwritten letter, Barthold told Ensign that under an existing provision of the Internal Revenue Code, willful failure to pay a fine can result in being charged with a misdemeanor which could carry a penalty of up to $25,000, or up to a year in jail, or both. The handwritten letter was a follow-up to an answer that Barthold gave Ensign during Thursday’s mark-up of the Baucus bill.

Screw you Loyd Esklidson. I guess I am destined to be a "deadbeat". Though, I have a "do not resuscitate" tatooed on my chest and will sue the hell out of any doctor that thinks he has the right to break my ribs to extort a couple of hundred thousand from me. I don't want catastrophic care if I am messed up, if I am messed up I want to die. And why the hell do you think you have the right to enslave me so your god damned medical bills will be cheaper. Stay the hell out of my life you f**k face.

To ease fears of an unexpected medical crisis, registered nurse Mary Pitman of Vero Beach, Fla., refuses health insurance and takes the extra cash in her paycheck. Pitman, 54, puts $3,000 per year into a pretax flexible spending account for routine care and another $300 per month in an emergency fund in the event of a major illness.

"I have more control over my money this way, and there's a tax advantage," she said.

Pretty good spin there, MSNBC, showing a nurse at the top of your article, talking about her not having insurance and then having "the rest of the story" at the end of the article. It is a great way to draw in the readers, but it is still spinning. At least she has a plan, and can probably do this for some time, as long as she stays healthy.

Why hasn't anyone challenged the constitutionality of the Massachusetts law requiring 100% participation?

The argument that all states require auto insurance does not hold water. Not all people licensed to operate a motor vehicle are required to carry auto insurance. Only the vehicle has to have liability coverage. It is the vehicle's owner who is responsible for ensuring coverage.

While still in college I became too old to be covered in my parent's policy, but could simply not afford insurance despite loans and working full time. I had a catastrophic policy and was able to buy a very small insurance policy ($200 a year) through the health clinic at the school that covered all my basic needs for a relatively healthy woman in her 20's.

Despite that coverage, the stress of not having insurance was very high. I worried all the time that I might break a bone. And in fact, I was in a car accident but was not hurt. I didn't care for that stress and was very happy when I got my job and was insured. (Our company's insurance policy was mandatory - you could not opt out.)

I think as an adult, if you opt out, that's your business. But to not insure your children? That's nonsense. You might skip vaccines, well-baby checks, and your child could become sicker by NOT taking them in when they are sick. That's reckless parenting, at best.

People are always putting down insurance companies. Thankfully we had it when my babies were born and one of them has a heart condition that will require a specialists' care for life. We would have lost our house had it not been for the insurance.

You NEVER know when you are going to get sick or hurt. You can avoid factors, sure, but believe me, I was more surprised than anyone when, at age 31 and a chronic exerciser (spinning, running, etc) I was diagnosed with high cholesterol. Despite diet and exercise, my gene pool was the deciding factor.

Without insurance, you might skip regular health checks and not even know that you have a chronic disease. You could feel really good and still have a chronic disease - or cancer.

As a personal decision, I would NEVER go without insurance. You never know when you're going to need it, despite your best efforts to care.

And I'm a little confused by this whole health care bill anyway. In my state, ALL children, despite income, are eligible to get the state's insurance. All pregnant women are similarly covered.

Like my good friend recently said to me, "We already have government funded health insurance. Some people just choose to purchase it." At least in my state. And the benefits are great. I know a woman on the state funded insurance and her coverage is better than mine. She has a shrink, goes to a pain clinic, has her regular doctor. In fact, the coverage is SO good she is currently a state-funded drug addict. And we're all paying for her very healthy pill supply.

Should we allow people to play Russian Roulette when we end up picking up the bill for the lossers. Hell no! The only way they should be allow to play this game is if they lose they will pay for it with their life. Hardly likely!

Allowing people to play Russian Roulette with their health is out right stupid, considering that we end up paying for their poor choice. There are many of you that did not agree bailing out big business for their stupid choices. Make up you mind what is it that you really want. CONFUSED? IT IS ILLOGICAL TO ALLOW THIS TO CONTINUE. HOW MUCH HAVE WE PAID ALREADY FOR ALLOWING PEOPLE TO PLAY THIS GAME WITH THEIR HEALTH CARE? HOW LONG WILL WE ALLOW PEOPLE TO PLAY THIS GAME BEFORE THEY MUST STOP?

4% is high, the normal range for healthcare profits is .5% to 1.5%. There reason the profit is higher is because of people losing their insurance from layoffs. When they see the whole cost of the insurance they refuse it and go without.

When I lost my job today, I didn't lose my insurance because I took the difference in wages and paid for the whole thing all these years. I have more than I need back in retirement right now, because that got me more wages to get 401K contributions on.

GaryRoot: Because you want to be a deadbeat, the rest of us has to pick up your tab. When you die, you wil cost the rest of us $, because an ambulance will be at your door step, who will transfer your ignorant rearend to country general. If you die, you will cost the rest of us $, because you will not be able to pay for funeral. Even if we keep your carcas for medical study, we will not be able to balance your over due bills. That is why you will cost us money.

OBAMA CARE: So many of you seem to have already know what is in the OBAMA CARE bill. I would be interested to know what is in it!!! It is now obvious that many of you right wing Nut Jobs HAVE ADVANCE LEVEL OF ESP. Wished you guys used it the previous 25 years.

Charles you make a goo point.

Well, an article on health care that hits home for me. I have not had health insurance for nearly 10 years, initially as a result of trying unsuccessfully to change health insurance plans, but ultimately by my own choice. I have been near death and have refused to go to a hospital because of the expense it would impose on my family, something that others would call foolish but which I call honorable. It is indeed the only honorable thing to do if I have opted out of participating in the insurance industry's complicity in seeing to it that medical professionals are guaranteed that they will continue to earn whatever they wish to bill for. The high cost of insurance is not the cost of insurance premiums; it is the $5 Tylenol, the $100 office visits where you get to see a doctor for less than five minutes, and the nurse taking the blood sample in less than three minutes at a rate of $85. I just don't happen to believe that holding a nation hostage for health care should be rewarded with a Mercedes for someone who has been out of med school for only five years. What would we think of grocers who charge $50 for hamburger because we are hungry and are willing to pay the price?

I have found that if I live in a healthy way, don't circulate among people who insist on coughing in everyone else's faces, don't overeat, get exercise, and don't drive like a wreckless fool, then I am not likely to be subject to the risks that others take. The only risks I will take are the development of diseases like cancer, diabetes, and the like which have a number of genetic components that determine the likelihood of whether I will contract them or not. In such an event, I would have to pay for it myself until my savings are exhausted, and then I have to face the inevitable.

Insurance would be a wonderful panacea for health care were it not for the fact that physicians and hospitals limit those who can experience their services by virtue of the conditions they place on the possible acceptance of new patients. I don't know about you, but the first words I hear from the desk attendant in the doctor's office are, "Do you have insurance?" not "How do you feel," "Do you have a fever," or "How long have you been feeling ill?" Insurance is the prequalifier for admission to the sacred halls of the practitioners who are supposedly governed by the Hippocratic Oath. It is only if one chimes up and says, "I am paying cash," that one is admitted.

We need to be a little bit up front about this and stop dancing around the subject of physician's and hospital's fees as if they are sacrosanct. Nothing in either the House or Senate versions of health care legislation discusses medical providers' fee schedules. Those pieces of legislation are simply bullets aimed squarely at the backs of insurers as if it were they who perform surgery, administer medications, and provide other forms of direct care. What nonsense!

Can you imagine going to city hall to complain about the amount one has to pay for a loan as being too high when what was purchased with the bank loan was a Ferrari? Sure it's expensive because the thing purchased was expensive. Had one bought a Ford Fusion, the loan payment would have been a lot smaller.

Let's take off the gloves, be a little bit honest about all this, and start calling a spade a spade. Forcing people to sign up for insurance while doing ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to shrink the mega prices for simple medical tasks is nothing short of a usurpation of personal freedom.

Doctors do have expenses, yes that is true. They have to pay for malpractice insurance, but that could be largely eliminated with some genuine tort reform. They have to pay for the transfer of medical records and the re-entry of the data into their own systems, but that could be eliminated by compelling all medical office software system to produce medical records in a single standardized format.

Isn't that what electronic personal health records is supposed to do? Yes and no. Each state seems to want to define what a valid health record's format should look like. So, if you move from Los Angeles to Boston, and you have to have your medical records transferred, there is still a built in inefficiency mandated by law.

Curiously enough, the entire medical profession would have been quite happy to let things go as they were had it not been for the national discussion of health care. Now, it would seem, we have been greeted with the scene of a medical profession now composed of electronic health care true believers when only a few months ago, the hodge podge of faxes, often illegible photocopied medical records, and noted from telephone calls was standard operating procedure. What a transformation when the threat of forcible, coercive change loomed on the horizon.

So, I don't have insurance, and this charade of proposed health care "reform" doesn't change my mind about getting it any time soon. The government decided that it was okay to fire the CEO of GM, to compel GM to produce a business plan in 90 days, and to castigate the business executives of the three major automobile companies for flying in private jets to a congressional hearing. Are they too cowardly to shake up the AMA with some top end firings, to compel physicians and hospitals to revise downward the schedule of fees they use and to publish them, and to castigate them based on the number of Mercedes-Benz automobiles that populate the Doctors Parking Area at most medical buildings? After all, if it was good enough for Detroit, it should be good enough for Beverly Hills.

One other thing. A person does not exist in order to guarantee the existence and ease of living of another person or other people. My continued existence, as long as I am willing to accept the consequences of my choices, should not have to be something that someone else must guarantee by that person being required to pay for insurance that he does not use and which would be used by me, instead. Or to put it differently, children are not conceived because they are comprised of a number of vital organs that could be harvested to keep an old drunk or an obese person alive. Does the idea sound repulsive and offensive? Of course, but that is exactly what coerced participation in a health insurance scheme is. You pay so another person can get fixed. Even if you don't believe that you need insurance, too bad, you have to and that's that.

That is the precise nature of compulsory participation in national health insurance. It is like being conscripted into the army, forced to join a union just to get a job, having to paint your house gray because your neighbors belong to a homeowners' association where the rules are that all houses must be gray. This whole group-think process that suppresses the traditional individuality of American life, the individuality that made this country the innovative country that it is, is being sacrificed on the altar of economic efficiency with the thought that somehow saving money is better than saving one's dignity and freedom. I don't thinnk so.

rdefazio:

Rather than stigmatize physicians on the basis of stereotypes, you need to do some research on primary care physician's salaries which along with the rest of us have decreased in the past few years.

rdefazio,

your "one other thing" post ----- ABSOLUTELY INCREDIBLE!

Long Live Freedom!

The real problem with healthcare is liability insurance. Liability insurance came about because medical professionals make mistakes, usually unintentional. Once they health professionals started getting sued, because of their income, they needed to cover for errors so they wouldn't have to fear losing everything.

The bad news is that once insurance companies started to insure, lawyers figured out there is now a money supply. 35% of all medical costs is over defensive medicine. 3.6% of all medical costs is from jury awards, hidden in raised liability insurance rates that are factored into medical costs. No cost has ever been assigned to the cost of doctors and insurance companies for defending themselves.

REAL reform would be to minimize the impact of malpractice. More regulating won't, it will only give the lawyers a stronger case for awards.

Exactly. If you choose not to have insurance then you choose to refuse care.

It really is not that much of a risk. Most of us do not need medical care until we die, and we don't need medical care if we are dead. The human body will fight off most illness without any medical care at all. Please don't force me to spend my children's inheritance for 1-5 extra years of poor health at the end of my life.

Well put Gary!

A new mandated expense is another name for a tax.

Josh-683880

Well put Gary!

A new mandated expense is another name for a tax.

Agree, except the mandated expense will will not be a new tax. It will go to the insurance companies as new profits. They have no problem "gambling" on sure bets - those who are healthy.

A new mandated expense is another name for a tax.

You people have no compassion for human life. It is obviously only about you and your money and/or things. We are all in this together, as in, we are all made from the same stuff and will face the same end result. You want to let people die in the streets because you are so selfish?? The same wil eventually happen to you. Just remember this day.

Gary - Easy to say when you are healthy. When you suddenly have that big stroke or need a heart bypass, you will perhaps better understand that none of us can forsee when we will be ill, how ill, or for how long. Can't forsee a car accident either. But you have insurance for that. Why? Because insurance companies found that it was cheaper to have everyone insured than just those who wished to be. The insurance companies decided this, then sold it to us all. That's when "ambulance chaser" lawyers really popped up.....

Same for healthcare. Difference is that the insurance companies think they do better with 10% premium increases annually on fewer folks than if they changed it to 2% increases on all folks.

I didn't need healthcare either - until I did - never had a doctor, never missed a day of work, always felt great and had high energy for 45 years..... Then out of the blue I had what everyone thought was a heart attack. I had bunches of tests, MRI's, EEG's, medications, specialists, blah blah.....Later I was diagnosed with panic disorder (from toxic fumes from my new vinyl siding...found out later), and this passed after 3 years. I had insurance - 80% coverage. I paid thousands out of pocket. Without the insurance I would have really suffered financially.

Last year another situation came up again - a polyp. Minor surgery and many appointments later - I was fine, but all of it cost over $16,000. I paid $1,500 out of pocket. Without insurance I would have had to dip into savings. What happens to those who have no insurance and no savings?

No need to lecture me about savings - we save over 15% every year, pay cash for our cars, and have a very small mortgage that will be paid off in a few years. I am financially responsible - but not in denial.

I think you should have a rider on your drivers license that says you will not be allowed medical treatment that you do not pay for. I pay for people like you every day when my car insurance charges me for uninsured motorists.... Are you expecting me to cover when you do get sick?????

ABC News’ Teddt Davis reports:

The debate over whether the federal government should require all Americans to carry health insurance is heating up.

The latest spark is a letter that Thomas Barthold, the chief of staff to the nonpartisan Joint Committee on Taxation, sent Thursday to Sen. John Ensign, R-Nev.

Given that the health-care bill written by Finance Committee Chairman Max Baucus contains a $1,900 fee (or excise tax) for not buying health insurance, Ensign wanted to know what would happen if an American didn’t pay the penalty.

In a handwritten letter, Barthold told Ensign that under an existing provision of the Internal Revenue Code, willful failure to pay a fine can result in being charged with a misdemeanor which could carry a penalty of up to $25,000, or up to a year in jail, or both. The handwritten letter was a follow-up to an answer that Barthold gave Ensign during Thursday’s mark-up of the Baucus bill.

You all protested DEATH PANELS, yet want to deny care to those who choose not to be insured.

You can't have it both ways.

I call this hypocrisy. A refusal to accept facts and deal with it.

To be or not to be is not always a "choice". I am currently on Cobra, premiums are higher that my mortgage, because new employer refuses to provide group coverage. I can't acquire, let alone afford, private coverage due to my husband's pre-existing medical issues (gout, type-2 diabetes, I therefore can't afford NOT to be covered). I can't afford to be self-insured due to lack of jobs that currently offer a living wage, most are barely above minimum wage let alone provide health benefits. Cobra expires in six months, what do I do then? I just want something to be done so that I can get off this merry-go-round. I guess I'm already part of my own death panel.

Unless your husband is on insulin, type 2 diabetes and gout do not really require a doctors care. I have both diseases and do not see a doctor for either. They are both primarily treated with diet anyway, and tons of information is available for free on how to plan an appropriate diet and great cook books are available to make the diet palatable. Get your husband on a good diet and maybe you can cut back on those doctor visits.

Donald - you're too funny!

Dopey. Donald - illegal immigrants did not get this country into the mess it's in. White males primarily did. On Wall Street. At mortgage companies. Landevelopers. Defense contractors. War profiteers. Greedy people who borrowed too much because they wanted more than they could afford.

These people are also the folks you probably elected to make laws. There was no constructive legislation during the last 10 years to address the immigration issue. 8 of those 10 years the majority in Congress was Republican.

Illegal immigrants work hard, ask for little, are paid little, and many wealthy folks love having them mow their lawns, clean their hotels, build their houses and care for their kids. They were allowed to keep coming to pick our fruit and other crops too - jobs the anglo community did not want to do (and still doesn't). Many illegals masquerade as legal residents, and pay insurance, employment taxes, and school taxes. Most pay their way.

We pay very little in taxes. And get very little in return. We support wars, but not taxes to support education or healthcare. The wars we support we do not wish to pay for. I have a solution....

1. Next election have a check off box on the ballot that asks if you support the wars. If you say yes - then an invoice for $5000 will be sent for you to help pay for the war you want.
2. Then we ask if you are a government employee or contractor. If you say no, you get a deduction from your taxes.
3. Then we ask if you support a tax increase to cover the debt. If you say no, and you said you worked for the government, an automatic pink slip would spit out of the ballot box. You no longer working for the government would be your contribution to reducing the debt.....

I've heard lots of obssessing about illegals - but no responsibility from the complainers themselves

No dumb DeeToo, Medicaid fraud and abuse by trash put us here. Stop putting the blame for government failure on the white man. I don't feel guilty because I have worked hard and earned what I have. I'm sick and tired of picking up the tab for laziness. As for those who feel they don't need insurance, perhaps they just expect someone else to bail them out. You go ahead and send in your contribution today as I'm sure all of those who abuse the system will use your money so very wisely. I'll be sure to let my family member serving overseas know how much liberals like you show your support for them over illegals. You're a joke, just not a funny one.

Dee Too

Here we go, the white male on wall street. Um the head of Citigroup was what? No minorities profitted from or worked there Wall Street? I'd say you are a racist but because I am a white man I'd probably be charge with a hate crime so I won't.

Illegal immigrants work hard, ask for little, are paid little- true but that does not matter they are illegal. If you were at home having diner with your family and I kicked in your door and helped myself to whatever I wanted, you called the police they refuse to doing anything. I ate the food you set aside for your children and they had nothing now to eat. You don't have money to buy more and even if you did , your not sure I won't eat that too. They are aren't immigrants they are invaders without guns bleeding institutions meant to serve citizens. I suspect your are probably on the dole anyway and are real liberal with my money.

Option to go it alone = refusal to receive treatment you cannot afford. These people are not gambling. They are playing poker with your chips. They are ahead if they don't need treatment but if they do lose big time - so what?

I don't think that's quite it, Thomas. It isn't about people refusing treatment they can't afford - it's about health care providers being granted the right to turn you away, no matter what, if you can't afford to pay (either by insurance, cash, or qualifying for a loan/payment plan).

Millions of people, U.S. citizens and the illegals - show up to get care they can't afford and expect to get that care for free, and they do. Paying customers invoices are jacked up to cover their free treatment. Right now hospitals have to take them, or at least stabilize them and send them to a public hospital than has to take them.

Option to go it alone = refusal to receive treatment you cannot afford.

Everyone who takes more out more in benefits than they pay in premiums is playing with other people's money, and by definition receiving treatments THEY cannot afford.

The reason single payer makes sense is that it take the vigorish out of the crap shoot of health care, and puts everyone into the same risk pool.

Would you deny me care, even if I can pay for it?

Not at all. Would you want to play poker with me if I could use your chips?

If I pay for it myself out of pocket, then I am not using your chips.

Oh, I forgot, you socialists think that all blessings come from the government, and that everything that is mine is yours. If that is the way the world works then I will no longer produce over $100,000 per year in productivity. Instead, I will become a burden. I will not contribute to my own enslavement.

And I said I would NOT deny you care. But if you can't pay for it and you CHOOSE not to have insurance - you are playing with my chips.

If I don't have insurance and cannot pay, then I should not receive the service.

It is mostly a service I don't want anyway.

Gary, people never say that after their car accident and they are bleeding to death......

I hate socialism too. Let's eliminate the VA, Medicare and Medicade. I would like to thank you for not saying "bless you" because I would rather be lucky.

Well, your'e getting closer. You said POPULACE. That's the problem. Too many people, If we don't want to take care of all the folks we got NOW. Then we can't have any MORE!

You have a cellphone?

Pat, I for one am not living nor will I ever support a scialist society. I do not beleive in welfare... only freedom to choose your life. People have made their choice and they chose to sit on their ass and collect welfare. I for one chose a career in the military and I am now a small business owner. I chose to get of my ass and work for a living, save, an afford what I want. NO ONE can tell me I need to support the weak and the lazy. NO ONE! Their life is a result of a string of decisions they made, not me. So I have no sympathy for aynone who cannot afford insurance. I have lived in Europe and experienced socalized medicine first hand... which I am sure is more than you can say... and you know what???? It sucked. It was the worst medical system I have ever seen. I would rather pay more for better treatment than get piss poor treatment by the government.

The real issue is Obama "Hussein" has taken over 90% of the mortgage industry, the banking and financial systems, 2 of the major automotive companies, all of the educational assistance loans... and numerous other aspects of our lives in 8 short months. This is the systemic take over of OUR country. The same one I fought for in the Middle East and the same one I WILL FIGHT FOR HERE ON OUR OWN SOIL if this continues. We could be looking at a revolution in this country very shortly because of the ignorant, arrogant politicians who do not listen to the populace... and it is time we throw them all out and start over. I recommend you start doing some research, finding out the facts (somewhere other than MSNBC, CBS...) and figure out which side you are on.

Well, American Dad, I did move to another country where I am an alien, and I get better and cheaper health care than I ever did in the USA. I will never go back.

Your choice, just don't show up at the hospital looking for care. I nor anyone else should have to pay for it

ok then quit your job and let someone who wants it have it. then the "socialist" system will support you. probably won't mind that will you? by the way its called socialised/ or national health care. There's a big difference in my opinion. Socialism is an entirley different thing.

heck if it comes to that what the HC lobbyist are doing is socialism.

Gary---Ut oh...I don't think you're going to fit the mold in the new Amerika. Resistance is not tolerated. Watch for any suspicious vans parked in front of your home or helicopters hovering overhead. Listen for strange clicks on your phone. Pull your shades and turn out the lights at night. You may need an attitude correction when the New World Order begins...just kidding

I am optimistic to the end. I am not materialistic. I don't need the stuff. And a prolonged vacation doing things I love rather than serving the almighty dollar seems like a very attractive opportunity in this environment.

If this passes and I can't afford the health care we're then enslaved to purchase, I refuse to pay a fine. I will spend any extra money on my right to bear arms and they can come and find out what I'm willing to sacrifice to avoid being a slave from birth.

Being fined to just exist, the alternative to be criminalized, is nothing short of slavery.

You work now to support a "socialist" system. IF you have a job, then you pay into Social Security AND Medicare--both of which you be glad to have when you get older and need medical care & medications. You people are such morons--afraid of socialism--you don't even know the meaning of the word but all of those Republicans & special interest groups say that it is evil so therefore it truly must be.

Tonya,

I spent my life studying socialism. I have read more books by Marxists than by Capitalists. I hate socialism and will fight it until I die. I certainly don't pay for socialism because I want to, I hide all the income I can from the tax man, and take every tax break I can legally take. But the end comes with my body, I will let the government take my money, but they cannot have my body. My body is mine. Thwart the invasion of the body snatchers!

Choosing to work and choosing to participate in a system are a freedom. Being charged by a government for just being born and having the audacity to continue living, or else being penalized, is flat out slavery.

I will fight to be free. At the very least, spitting in the eye of tyranny can cause an opressor to blink. I would rather die free than continue down the path of government instituted slavery. Slavery doesn't always consist of physical chains...

Gary,

I think you have made your point - repeatedly ! It is bordering on boring and you moved to the Paranoid column a few posts back.

I think it is great that YOU refuse to have insurance under any circumstances. If you want to opt for the "Ice flow" method of taking care of seriously ill persons, be my guest.

However, the current system used by Insurance carriers cherry picks their enrollees and is aimed at reducing THEIR risk. It needs reform, and perhaps a governmental scare or hard slap across the head is what is needed.

Your personal choice has NO bearing in this argument since you opt OUT.

So - paddle out to that Ice flow, climb on and drift into the sunset.

It has quite an impact, because they are talking about imposing fines and penalties for those who opt out. And in spite of saying it repeatedly, people still don't seem to understand that my position is not up for argument. I am trying to tell them that in truth the government cannot really make this program mandatory. They can, however, turn it into a program that creates new black markets, new criminal enterprises, a new segment of social outcasts -- because they want to impose services on people who (mostly for religious reasons) DO NOT BELIEVE IN MEDICAL CARE. Some of us will not sacrifice our principles no matter how we are persecuted.

Liz- I believe you will have similar problems with a government solution in the form of rationing or selective care - then try to sue the government.

the best way to fix health care and the economy and to get people working again is to cut health care from all business and corp. and ins. companies, and give it to the people as an ins. pool, this would bring down the cost, and free up money that the business and corp. would not have to pay out, it would free up enough money to get people working again, every month business and corp, would have billions of dollars left to hire workers with and the need for more hospital workers would almost double, new const. etc, this is hard but better than financial failure!

I like idealists Dale, but to be honest - businesses are crooked. They will not use the savings for the worker, they will simply shift that money into their management and CEO pockets. It's a rare company that actually cares about it's pool of employees.

I'm an idealist also and wish the world worked the way we see it. Unfortunately, Capitalism spawns greed as that is what it means to capitalize.

Capitalism is the only system that provides both wealth and individual freedom. Nothing is perfect, especially the many versions of socialism (market socialism, national socialism (NAZIism), and communism. All versions of socialism place the needs of the state above the rights of individuals. I believe in freedom, and if there is a cost in comfort and security to remain a free man, then that cost, that sacrifice, must be made. Nanny state medicine is an affront to the freedom of individuals and it should not exist, even if some individuals will not receive medical care as a result. Freedom trumps medical care.

Gary

Surely you realized that capitalism only provides you the freedeom you can afford and justice is just that "just us". Just say.

The only freedom we ever really have is freedom we pay for ourselves. Otherwise it is stolen freedom, bought with the slavery of others, and rights that enslave other will eventually enslave you as well.

money=freedom=power to do what you want

so what? if you got no money you got no freedom

poverty's just another word for nothing left to lose

cyfi - you are correct we need torte reform everywhere asap - but it won't happen, the Dems are tied to close to the trial lawyers association - ask Howard Dean, he will tell you why we can't have torte reform now, " too difficult to tackle right now".

Time Magazine (June 9, 2003) reported a Weiss Ratings study that found that in the preceding decade states with caps on non-economic damage awards saw doctor's malpractice premiums rise 48 percent while states without caps saw rises of only 36 percent. The median premium was about the same in both groups of states.

Insurance exec save $ from tort reform, but unless you regulate what they can charge doctors, docotrs will be paying as much as ever for malpractice insurance.

In 2003, Texas lawmakers enacted a cap on malpractice awards like California's. There was a marked drop in malpractice suits filed. Within a few months, however, the nation's largest medical malpractice insurer, GE Medical Protective, raised its premiums in Texas.

Fair lawsuit payout is acceptable. Excessive payouts - to make attorneys richer - is the exact reason why many doctors are leaving the system or opting out of liability insurance.

The reason democrats (and ambulance chasers) don't want tort reform is that it will lower their individual incomes.

My son had an accident 2 yrs ago and went to the ER. He didn't have insurance. When he got the bill from the ER it was over $1,000 but stated that if paid w/i 30 days it would be $500.

I had the same experience. The pharmacy had a three tier system. Insurance, Medicaid and Cash. Paying in cash cost the most.

That's vile!!

How about if the government formed a group of all the people who could afford the group premiums and then bought group insurance for them? This wouldn't solve everybody's problem because a lot of people can't afford the group premiums; but it would reduce the size of the problem, and then we could argue about what to do about those who were left over. Is there anything like this in the Obamacare plan? I hear something about "pools".