Obama warns of tough health care battle ahead

Blah Blah Blah...Hey Republicans, your time has come, it's time to stop protecting the Insurance companies and actually look out of the tax payers for a change. If you don't you will be the ones losing your cushy health care coverage.

Actually, I think it's going to be easy to pass health care reform. Remember, it only takes 51 votes to pass the actual legislation. It just takes 60 to invoke cloture to end the likely filibuster. Not all 60 of those cloture votes need to be in favor of health care reform. It may be that conservative Dems who don't support current reform legislation ALSO don't support the idea of the GOP minority holding up the will of a majority of lawmakers, even if they don't agree with the legislation 100% themselves. It gives them the political "out" to not stand in the way of their own party, but they still won't actually have to vote for a reform package they do not fully support.

I would encourage legislative Dems to keep up the pressure, but when push comes to shove, Congress already has the votes to pass reform right now. Some of you are just looking at the wrong set of numbers, and that includes the media, I guess.

Moderate senators can decide to vote against reform on their principles, but those same principles may apply

Please ignore my last partial sentence above. I meant to delete it but forgot, sorry.

Two cents is about right because that is about all you will have left after you are taxed.

It is not about protecting the insurance compaines. It is about actually making change that will work and not running the US into the ground.

Medicare is set to go broke what makes people think the government can run another health care system. Fix medicare first, get the budget under control then lets talk about the public option. If this administration can prove they can help the medicare system then I bet more people may listen.

Also if this administration would put some term limits in place overhaul congress then that is change I could believe in.

Olympia Snow may have finally woken up and realized, the "government option" in her own home state is a fiscal failure.

Obama promise: If you make less than $250k, your taxes will not increase.

Truth: The bulk of the funding for this, and the major impact of the taxes on the insurance industry via premium increases, will be passed on. 95% of the people in this country earn less than $250k and all of them will pay. Promise broken.

Obama promise: If you like what you have, you keep it.

Truth: Not if you can't afford it, you can't. The premium increases alone stand to drive millions of people out of the market that make $1 or more too much for subsidies but not enough to absorb the increased costs, in addition to the increased taxation that is inevitable. Promise broken.

Obama statement: Obama said that America has no choice but to overhaul the health care system to make insurance cheaper for families, businesses and the government. (from this article)

Truth: Costs will increase for virtually everyone, not decrease. Later, he goes on to attack the lobbyists for "protecting their profits" and further attempts to demonize the insurance industry. Meanwhile, the Senate bill removes any ability for government to negotiate with pharma for Medicare rates, since they already "gave" $80 billion.

Reality: One third of health care spending is wasted. In a story on MSNBC yesterday,

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/33480141

which was quickly buried tells the tale. But it's not wasted at the insurance companies alone, its wasted by excessive testing, double, triple etc. paperwork, AND care directed specifically towards protecting the Dr. from malpractice accounted for a whopping 37% of the waste. Where is the tort reform in this legislation? Nowhere.

Assumption: A government run insurance option will force competition.

Reality: This has been tried, and failed, in MA, TN and ME. All three states are drowning in cost overruns. If the costs in ME to cover their uninsured are projected nationally? A public option could cost this country $10 TRILLION.

Meanwhile, true competition could be forced by insituting a national standard of coverage, and forcing insurance companies - whether 100 or 1300 - to compete across state lines. Tort reform, obviously, could save billions. The Republicans (not defending them, just pointing out fact) have supported these measures from the start of this debate, and in fact have a handful of bills that have never seen the light of day much less been debated on the floor of either chamber. And yet, the media and the Democrats continuously call them the party of "no"? Well, could that because they agree with the goal, but disagree entirely on how to achieve it?

So let them pass it, and they will get voted out. Because here's two last facts:

Taxation, fees and premium increases start almost immediately.

No one, not one single person, that actually needs help, is helped for at least three years.

One Cent Worth

I thought Odumbo & Crew bailed out the Autos/Banks/Insurance Co. all off the backs of the U.S. tax payers and so far it has failed, now you want them to dictate health care also???

Here are a few things for you dims/libs to think about (if you can) understand the efficiencies of our Government'

Gov. has had since 1775 to get the U.S. postal service runing to at least even but it is broke.

Social Security is broke after 75 years of trying to get it right.

Medicare and Medicaid was started in about 1965 so after 44 years it is broke. Do I need to go on & on?

pj thornton

I think you are right about one thing, it is all politic for the democrats. They will vote the party line regardless of the issue, same with the republicans. If their party said nuke the country, their responce would be to the american people, well, I am just like you, I don't like it, but I have to support my party, we can't let the other side destroy us. They are all bums.

One thing's for sure, the GOP hasn't protected the taxpayers from much of anything, even though they had literally decades of control to do whatever they wanted. They made the very financial mess that Obama and the Dems have now tried to clean up. Obama is doing so for the good of ALL of us, not just the wealthy like Bush with his high flyin', rich-boy tax cuts - DURING TWO WARS!

Yeah, those tax-cuts REALLY paid off for the country, didn't they? JUST LOOK where we are! AMAZING, huh? Trickle, trickle, trickle! Only thing is, that trickle is just the wealthy peeing on you. And then some of you are like "Thank you sir! May I have another?".

I'm reminded of those folks that say "Satan's greatest trick is convincing humans he doesn't exist." The GOP's greatest trick is convincing working-class folks that the party is actually looking out for them. Nothing could be further from the truth, and our current economic struggles prove it. But something tells me the rich will be able to muddle through it all, and pretty damn comfortably at that. Maybe it was all those extra tax cuts! Oh, what the hell, they deserved 'em. Right?

The real deal being that the one who is really doing the bullying is Obama and Big Union!!! These are the people who are pushing for Health Care Change. Reality is I'm the true liberal. Free the people so they have a choice. Free the people to make and keep their hard earned money and can plan a future for their children. Free the people to do what is necessary to feed their families. Thats true liberty. Enabling those who do not want to work is not liberty. It is placing a thumb on the back of their necks and keeping them in line!!! The non-workers may not like it, but a baby doesn't like having to give up momma's teet either. Stop the sucking off of the workers!!!!

More liberal talking points, pjthornton, and no substance.

While I will not defend the GOP because I also find them largely indefensible, I would point out to you - again -

That the bulk of the funding for this health care legislation will be extracted from the middle class. There is only one of five of the bills currently being "melded" that uses taxation of the wealthy to provide funding.

So how's that supposed Democratic protection of the little guy working out for you? Not so well, it looks like. Meanwhile, they've all, Obama and Congress and all his czars, got more in their left pocket than you'll make in your life.

pj thornton regarding your comment 1.2,

"Dems... ALSO don't support the idea of the GOP minority holding up the will of a majority of lawmakers,”

This is the typical liberal thought process regarding holding up the will of the lawmakers. It is not about them it is about the will of the people, not the will of a majority of lawmakers. Because of this some Democrats are also worried about their jobs. If this passes there will be a major backlash against those who supported it. This will also occur if an Obama Immigration Reform (AKA: Amnesty) program should be come to a vote. The American people are tired of having this liberal scam agenda foisted on them.

rucous: This administration (or any other) does not have the authority to put term limits in place. That would require an act of Congress. The executive branch is equal to the legislative branch is equal to the judicial branch. Our Constitution outlines three separate but equal branches of government. The duties and responsibilities of each are delineated as well. The president has no power or authority over the US Congress.

The insurance industry profits total only 1% of the health care costs in this contry. Agree its a large amount of money but peanuts in the entire scheme of things...

This administration and Congress are NOT addressing the issue here. They are using smoke and mirrors to drive their agenda of power and control.

The fight is not with the industry, it is with America...

None of this really matters anyway.

The moderate Dems will never vote for anything "public". Their constituents are against it, and they know it.

It's still DEAD no matter what Reid says.

hmmm... I thought the reform was suppose to REDUCE medical insurance costs, rather, it will cause an increase in medical and insurance costs because of the large increase in taxes that will be passed on to the consumer.

Should your State "opt out", the citizens will still have to pay greater taxes that will support those that "opt in".

Man we need to change Congress ASAP! Vote out ALL incumbents that vote YES to this bill!

Who ever voted for Obama gets what they deserve. This smooth operator who is inexperienced and associates with Chicago thugs who are corrupted like Jarrett,Jones ect... who tells me different about this Presidents character that he is no different then any other stinking politician who is corrupted and breaks the promises to the American people. Well, I will prey & hope that this healthcare reform bill passes and it will tax the sh*%#@ out of everyone just to teach everyone a huge lesson that the Democrats are just as bad as the other party.

I say to Obama you can stick you Healthcare reform bill up your A@#*% and you know damb well it will raise taxes up the yeng yang and it will add to the deficit. STOP LYING TO THE AMERICAN PEOPLE OF YOUR SMOOTH TALKING.!!!!!!!!! Obama your a hypocrite and huge double tongue idiot.

Just curious,how can they get cost estimate on this plan,now that they want to have a program that allows states to "opt out" of the plan? How can the CBO give an accurate cost estimate,when they have no idea how many states will "opt" in or out? This has now become a large "shell game" that they seem to be content to make up as they go.So the Postal Service has cost taxpayers 7 billion this year,Amtrack reports losing 32$ for every passenger it takes,anyone want to guess what they have in common......both run by the government,doesn't really inspire alot of confidence!

Hey 2 cents worth.. The banks he is going to adjust their pay have a bigger profit margin than the Insurance Industry.. Medicare is losing money hand over fist with over 100 BILLION in FRAUD a year. Tricare the Military Health care System sucks. AMTRAK not making money.. POST OFFICE NOT MAKING Money.. and now you want to create another welfare program? Get real America.. Stop letting the Dems create another welfare program. Stand up and say no BY God you are aiding and abetting them in the destruction of this country.. And don't think the Republicans get a break. They aided and abetted in the destruction also by doing nothing..

First, this is not health care reform, it is health insurance reform. Health care reform would work to improve the quality of care by increasing the number of health care providers/professionals, increase the number of hospitals, the size of emergency rooms to end over-crowding and waiting times in the emergency rooms, and accept alternative methods for healing with cancer and other diseases.

Second, if there is to be a public option to bring competition to the market place, the public option needs to operate independently of the white house, senate, and house of representatives. The public option cannot use tax dollars to subsidize costs. The government cannot use excess (read profits) for other things. Any excess (profits) would have to be used to reduce the costs even further. If these conditions are not met, you do not have an option, but the beginning of a single payer system designed to drive the health insurers out of business. It would be easier to allow health insurers to compete across state lines and and mandate a range insurance companies could charge for policies.

In the end, this is about control. There is no other reason to mandate everyone get health insurance. The government wants to control your lives. They failed to grab control when they couldn't take over the entire banking industry (which would have given them control over our money). So they go after the next best thing, our health care. If this fluke of a bill passes the senate, then it may be time to reconsider our government model and devise something new which would guarantee our freedoms that this administration and congress want to strip away.

If you doubt me, then prove me wrong. Where in the bill is there any cost cutting measures to reduce the cost of health care (not insurance)? How are they going to reduce the cost of medicine/drugs? How are they going to reduce the costs of hospital stays, surgeries, doctor offices visits, emergency care? Is any of that in the bill? I have read most of the bill, and have not seen it. There is a mandate to buy health insurance or pay a penalty of 2.5% of your gross income. To me, that is a loss of freedom, the ability to chose for myself. Basically, it is another tax. So much for no new taxes.

he warned of tough battles ahead as major industries such as insurance companies fight hard to preserve their profits.

Oh my, those big bad profits that we now all know are not that big in the first place. Imagine someone wanting to protect their jobs. What should they do, just roll over and die? Once and for all, government CAN NOT do a better job...!

And by the way when was making a profit in business a bad thing? This is America not Russia!!!

Obama and Congress are making this a tough fight and it need not be so. All they have to do is the following and sit back and watch America's free Enterprise system do it's job.

(1) Stop trying to FORCE health care on those who don't want it.

(2) Allow current health care companies to compete across state lines.

(3) Fix what is wrong with Medicare and allow those who truly can not afford health care to qualify for it.

(4) Appoint qualified people to oversee Medicare to ensure that fraud is stopped (and coverage gaps are filled) and that those who commit it are punished to the fullest extent of the law and that includes people who can really afford to purchase health care but attempt to take advantage of the system by getting on free health care.

Of course nothing this simple will be considered, much less done because it would be difficult to hide the pork in something this simple and something like this could have been accomplished a long time ago giving them nothing important (in their minds) to do.

Last but certainly not least. Doing something like this would not give them the CONTROL over the day to day lives of the American people that they want like forced health care. What better way to CONTROL people that to control their health care?

FORCED health care. FORCED concentration camps. FORCED sterilization. FORCED labor. Does any of this sound familiar to anyone?

How about FORCED enrolment into this health care system by members of Congress, their families and staff as well as POTUS Obama his family and staff?

In case anyone doesn't know it, the current bill excludes the above mentioned people from the health care bill. This makes me wonder. If it is such a good thing why is it that they want no part of it?

that will be all that is left in your pocket 2 CENTS

They might just have the votes to pass this Health Care Bill but we'll have the votes to remove them from office after it's done!

You can bet on that !

Term Limits on Congress!

Since the last public option medicare was so successful at reducing prices lets do it again. The per capita health care cost has increased around 900% from 1960 to 2006.Guess we are doomed to repeat history because we sure have not learned from it.

molemanisalive & Ernie - Good points. Anyone with any sense will read your posts. Keep up the valiant effort. This isn't about helping people it is about control and who has it, dress it up to look like they are doing you a favor, then take political credit.

What a total farce this has turned into....by the way, really great "leadership" on this, Mr. Obama.

Ms. Pelosi says they will call it smething else...other than the "public option", so people will accept it more easily.

We're told that this won't create a big government bureaucracy, but now individual state governments can supposedly "opt out" for each state's population....just more government in the mix.

The president was the person who turned the key "on" for all this, yet his involvement is minimal.

Take a good long look at Mr. Reid and Dame Pelosi....would anyone even put these two in charge of purchasing household groceries ???

Maybe "farce" is too mild a word.

Did we really expect anything innovative or things that resemble solutions from the Right Wing Tools???

Please bring it on... It is time for your party to start pandering to the corporations for political donations so that your representatives can remain in office, to fight the changes that people want. You are no different than those that fought FDR on Social Security and National Healthcare....

If you are a Democratic representative that vote against your people, we will make certain that we will contribute to your Democratic oppositions during your next local primary.

the more the dems overreach, the faster it flits through their fingers.

I guess th turd never heard of the trial lawyers who give millions to the dems to make sure they get to sue doctors, hospitals and health clinics and drive up health care costs so they can make millions and donate to the dems who will continue to ensure the lawyers make millions etc, etc, etc

Once and for all, government CAN NOT do a better job...!1.23

Yea i guess it was government security guards that allowed the 9/11 hijackers on the planes with box cutters too right? You people were duped by Regan when he told you that government was the problem. It wasn't government over regulation that caused the great depression it was the lack of and it wasn't the Private sectors intervention that brought us out of it. Strong Government intervention helped us then and it will help us now.

PLEASE, PLEASE READ THIS ARTICLE VERY CAREFULLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

BOTH DEMOCRATS AND REPUBLICANS, READ IT AND LOOK FOR THE MOST IMPORTANT STATEMENT IN IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Read it word for word, line by line and paragraph by paragraph. Look for what should be the most important statement in this whole Health Care Redistribution debate. It should jump right out at you. It should smack you right betwee the eyes.

BUT YOU KNOW WHAT? IT WON'T!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

WHY NOT??????

BECAUSE IT'S NOWHERE TO BE FOUND IN ALL THESE WORDS, LINES AND PARAGRAPHS!!!!

The most important statement should be,,,,

WE ARE DOING WHATEVER IS IN THE AMERICAN CITIZENS BEST INTEREST!!!!!

Read it. Look for it. Read it again. It's NOT there. WHY????

Because these Democrats DON'T CARE!!!! They only care about what THEY WANT it to be. Another government social program paid for by you, me and our children. Look at the discussion. This Senator wants this, this one wants that. This one doesn't like this but does like that!!!!!!!!!

NOWHERE is it stated, "we are doing this in the best effort for the citizens of the United States of America"!!!!!!

Here you have OUR government working for THEIR best interest. For their individual party agenda. For their bias regarding the largest government takeover of private industry in our HISTORY!!!!!

HERE WE HAVE THE GOVERNMENT WORKING FOR THEIR LEGACY!!!!

THEY JUST WANT THEIR NAME ON THIS, SUCCESS OR FAILURE BE DAMNED!!!!!

Lawmakers must meld the House and Senate versions of the health care bills.

Why does every story require this sentence? We all know they have to come up with a compromise bill, and frankly, that's weeks or even months away. Let's get these bills out of the House and shut down the filibuster in the Senate. Then we can talk about compromise in conference. If Pelosi can't get to 218, you have to think she loses her speaker position. If Reid can't get to 60, well...he'll not only lose his position. He won't be in the Senate by the end of 2010.

All this time wasted on something that will not pass. The moderates will not vote for this boondoggle because they like their job. Only an idiot like reid, pelosi, and the few stupid members of congress that don't care if they get elected will vote for this crap.

Schwannomin

If Pelosi can't get to 218, you have to think she loses her speaker position. If Reid can't get to 60, well...he'll not only lose his position. He won't be in the Senate by the end of 2010.

That's the plan.

Schwannomin

If Pelosi can't get to 218, you have to think she loses her speaker position. If Reid can't get to 60, well...he'll not only lose his position. He won't be in the Senate by the end of 2010.

That's the plan.

At least you're honest about your goal. These Repubs who act like they're fighting for the average American don't have the audacity to simply say what you just said. I commend your honesty. Only Jim DeMint has been willing to say it publicly.

All this time wasted on something that will not pass. The moderates will not vote for this boondoggle because they like their job. Only an idiot like reid, pelosi, and the few stupid members of congress that don't care if they get elected will vote for this crap.

You might not be old enough to remember. In 1994, the very Democratic defeat you speak of happened. That loss in particular cost the Dems more congressional defeats than passing literally any bill would have cost them. The only way to avoid Jim DeMint and USAWolf's plan is to pass some kind of law on health care. The Senators don't have to vote for it if their constituents don't like it, but they would certainly lose their seats if they uphold a Republican filibuster like they did in 1994. That track has already been tried and it was disastrous.

Bigfoot62,

Sounds like the usual sour grapes coming from your side.

At least you and other righties are smart enough to realize that the GOP doesn't have anyone worthy of running against Obama in 2012. You haters are all out of ideas. Without your master Bush, you folks are lost. All you have is your Obama hate and bitterness for 2012.

Alright. So will government healthcare be run like the post office? That will be cool when your doctor goes postal. No one even knows what is in this bill in it's entirety. Anyone who believes anything any of these political fools have to say is a fool themselves. Leave my money and my body alone. No to socialism, yes to Freedom! Vote these intellectual apes out of office.

Oh noooooooo, you mean when 64% of the American people dont want this bill rammed down our throats, even some democrats are listening!!! Wow, do you think they may be looking towards November 2010, and LOSING their jobs?? When two Demos and one liberial Republican have already come out and said they cant support this bill...think that might be a clue? Someone needs to inform Pelosi and Reid they are 30 pts behind in their state of California to REPUBLICANS running against them. The tide is turning and we will take back America.

To all of the dipsticks in the congress and morons that post in here against the health care reform.....you are the minority when it comes to health care reform, and are a pathetic bunch. All senators and congressmen that vote against it will prove they are in bed with insurance and drug companies, and will be voted out. Thousands of people die each year because they cannot afford coverage, and those that do get treatment and live drive up the premiums of those of us that do have insurance. Get a brain. I don't hear anyone @!$%#ing about the billions we have spent in Iraq and Afghanistan, but something like this will break us for years to come? It just shows you that we have money for what we Want to have money for. Get some gonads democrats.

Actually 2 cents our desire is not to protect ourselves from the Insurance Co., it's more to protect us from a government that wants to take over this great Country. This bill doesn't even cover the 30 million they said was uninsured, and at the end of this vote, they will vote in another 2 billion to cover the those people and illegals. Does the blatant spending of our money ever cease from these peoples heads. Don't you understand that the reason the Senate and Congress want to vote for public health is because they could care less about your health, this health bill doesn't apply to them. THEY WILL ALWAYS HAVE WONDERFUL INSURANCE at a much greater of OUR money than we spend now!

Hospitals are jammed full of people and there aren't enough Drs. and Nurses to take care of what we have now, and I can garren darn teeit that after seeing it in the hospital where I worked for 25 years the quality and quantity will get worse.

it's amazing that the ideas voiced by the lobbyists above led to a catastrophic recession and yet the song remains the same...if only we could have less regulations and let Wall Street do whatever it wants then we'll be A-OK...what you have is a minority of Americans with the majority of the wealth who have always gotten their way and now there is a glimmer of a possibility that they may not get their way and they're crying and throwing tantrums like 3-year-olds...it's been fascinating to watch what happens when the lobbyists think they may actually not get exactly what they want...it seems to be blowing your minds...just...does...not...compute....well start computing @!$%#es...LOL

Bigfoot 62:: and that coming from the party with a 25% approval rating!!! I cant wait for 2012 to when you do nothings get the biggest surprise of you political careers!!! when we kick you`all out the second time mayby then you`all will get over it!!!

Ahhhh shucks, you tell em BigFoot.

I think America owes the founding fathers a debt of grattitude. They knew that government could not be trusted, that to force something down the peoples throats with a simple majority would not be good. Most times cloture is not a good thing, but sometimes it's a great thing.

For God's sake don't listen to those who prefer
to pay trillions for war and zero for healthcare.

They are knee jerk Bush types that have no way
of understanding how much we'll spend on this
issue without any change let alone with a well
thought out plan that may cost alittle more now
but will actually save our grandchildren, not burden
them with the Chinese debt say from the wars...

Don't wait for the insurance companies to buy off
all those whose soul's are pliable like Cheney. Those
Dems who vote against this should not win another
term. If money is more important to them, then let
them go back to work as attorneys which most were
trained as.

Obama's "number one top domestic priority"? What happened to his pledge that the Economy would take top priority and get fixed? FAILURE # 1

The Republicans don't have to do anything because the Democrats are fighting among themselves so bad that Reid can't get 60 votes and even Olympia Snow won't vote for his plan now.

Hey Lemmings, Obama isn't going to take care of you after all. Oops, he lied!

Does anyone know the answer to the following question?......

Pres. Obama says if you like the plan and/or doctors you have now you can keep them.

Question: If you go on the government plan and don't like it can you drop their plan and go back to private healthcare instead? Or is it that once you are on the government plan are you on it for life?

Does anyone know?

Healthcare to pass?? Get rid of the public option!!!!

Portability of insurance! No coverage for ILLEGAL immigrants!

Damn, it's pretty easy to get it through......you'd have thought that they learned their lesson Round #1!

This chicken manure debacle of Health Care financing is one of the most fun thing I have watched since 1994. If a Republican votes for this monstrosity, he or she will probably not be returning to the Great Food Fight Arena sometimes referred to as Congress. For the democrats it's lose/lose however you sway the current congressional desk monkeys. If they garner enough to pass it in the House some will be returned to their cages. If they don't pass it, read the previous sentence. So much for the astroturf tea readers.

I think I'll have my celebratory drink right now. Get out the chips and beer.

WATCH THIS IMMEDIATELY ALL OF YOU!!! This is far more important that what they are telling

http://www.youtube.com/watch?=PMe5dOgbu40

It is difficult to believe that obama and his thugs are trying to shove this down our throats after the tea parties, town hall meetings, polls taken. It is obvious that the citizens do not want this. It is obvious that obama and his thugs DONT CARE what the taxpayers want. obama and his thugs dont care about our health. The health care bill is about power, money and control.

and it's going to lower costs, provide better health insurance coverage and cover ... and reform the health insurance market."

Really? Is this not the same tactics they used in Massachusetts? And why was the statement edited to a point that stopped right after the words "insurance coverage and cover..." Cover who? Illegals? You can damn well bet on it!

But I digress, here is the real truth of a government run health care system: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703298004574454893530315578.html

If this happens in such a small state as Mass., what makes you think that it is not going to be even worse when the Fed's get hold of your checking accounts? And believe you me, they are after nothing but your money...and the continued pandering to the welfare state and illegal immigrant voters!!!

Everyone had better start bombarding your Representatives and stop this madness. Dems, Pubs, Libs, Inde's, get together for a change and put an end to these tyrants in Washington. They are only working for their benefit, not ours. Don't believe me, then why have they exempted themselves from a 'public option?"

WAKE UP AMERICA...WE ARE ABOUT TO LOSE OUR INDEPENDANCE!!!

But Mkwildcat(love your name!!). What do we do? Congress and obama WILL NOT listen to us! The teaparties, townhalls, etc. they just called us names , nasty ones. And ignored us. What can we do? Yes, we are losing our independance.

Jimmiesgirl,

We do what our forefathers did: KICK THE KINGS MEN AND WOMEN OUT OF OUR GOVERNMENT! This can be achieved. As a nation, it is our duty to our country, and our Constitution, to protect our country. Remember, we have the power, all we need to do is enforce it: Protect from enemies, both foreign, and DOMESTIC.

This means we stop being sheep, stop tolerating the cowards, and march on Washington as a nation, and remove these tyrants from office!

The politicians are only able to do what they are doing so long as we allow them to. How could they possibly continue if we remove them? Look at our past...We as a nation, when united, are unstoppable. IT IS TIME TO UNITE!!!

For far too long, we have allowed these thieves to control us, to place mandates on us, to violate our rights under he Constitution. ENOUGH IS ENOUGH! It is time to clean up our house.

And it is not about them listening to us anymore, the premise they they would even begin to fails on the pure logic that once they have placated us, they will continue to do the same. No, we must rule ourselves. We must fight back with every means possible. Together, they can not harm us.

Yet, the notion that we are doing something wrong is in complete violation to our rights as a free people. We MUST stand up against this tyranny and remove these imperial dictators. March, scream, and be heard. If that does not work, then grab your pitch forks and storm the hill...This is America, land of the FREE...not the land of the servants. Get your brothers, sisters, neighbors, and everyone else that you meet with and organise. Get off of the couch and take to the streets. If only by yourself, you will fail, but banded together, unstoppable!!! Our country was founded on this principle...

mrkwildcat, Great post! Very powerful and i agree with every bit of it. Some say, vote them out, but I fear that we dont have that much time. But think about it, even the march on WashDC they ignored it. That was so many people , and they were still called names. You are right, tho, we need to act before it is too late. I love your spirit.

I don't mind debating any Republican, but do you always have to resort to name calling. Look at some of the message boards and those that call the most names and say the meanest things are you so call conservatives who are actually sore losers or racist. We can spend billions of dollars on wars, on the bs CIA, or FBI, Homeland Security which is worthless, buying our Chinese made goods, giving countries billions of dollars in aid, and on and on - yet we can't possibly spend the money to make sure all Americans have good heath care. Way to go - Americans - right down the tube! Another hundred years and this will look like another third world country with our outdated electronics, poor infrastructure, poor health care, no decent jobs, and undereducated society. Not so many years back a Russian ruler said to bring the US down, just seed dissent and we would destroy ourselves from within. Looks like he was right. Perhaps rather than taking to the streets with pitchforks against this "tyranny" (as if we know what that is like) maybe we should go to the ballot box and vote the whole bunch of them out. But we don't, do we? we vote party lines, our favorite guy, the one that agrees with us and to heck with everyone else. We the people are at fault for putting up with this bs. So continue to fight with one another and see where that gets you.

If you don't mind supporting Wall Street or the Dems and GOP with your health insurance dollars. Fine. But if you don't want to be robbed blind, you need to do two things. First of all, support Obama's health care proposals, particularly the public option. Secondly, do not vote for any GOP candidate and get rid of the Blue Dog Democrats in the primaries. That's the one and only way you can guarantee health care for yourself, family, your children after they grow up and try to find a job and everybody else who has been denied or dropped from health care so called providers.

BIGFOOD 62 - try the honorable Independent Senator from Connecticut. He gets about a million bucks from the insurance companies. He should be able to afford a run for the White House since you seem to think no "better" candidate could afford it. I think he may be idiot enough to want the job. And there certainly are idiots that put him in Congress - and the Dems were idiot enough to trust him.

BeBe, The health care bill is not about health care, it is about power money and control. The politicians couldnt care less about our health. They want to control another one sixth of the economy, and they want to control everything about our health care and lives. they will probably take the health ins. premiums that we pay them, and use the money to pay other things in the budget, just like they have robbed the social security money. And now the SS"trust fune" is nothing but a bunch of fed. govt. ILUs. Why do you think they are pushing so hard for health care? They need the money!!!! And the control.

BeBe, The health care bill is not about health care, it is about power money and control. The politicians couldnt care less about our health. They want to control another one sixth of the economy, and they want to control everything about our health care and lives. they will probably take the health ins. premiums that we pay them, and use the money to pay other things in the budget, just like they have robbed the social security money. And now the SS"trust fund" is nothing but a bunch of fed. govt. ILUs. Why do you think they are pushing so hard for health care? They need the money!!!! And the control.

I believe the Democrat leadership is crafting a health care bill behind closed doors that will include tax payer funded abortions and all the illegals having free health care. They dont care what American wants or needs, they will lie, cover up, use whatever means they can to try and pass a bill. We all need to keep the pressure on all members of Congress to tell us the truth and be open as Mr Obama promised transparency, and openness in his administration,

Sorry, I did not mean to post that post twice.

pj thornton

You make a good point.

The real battle won't be getting a bill to pass, it will be getting past the procedural vote on a filibuster, which requires 60 votes. If the Democrats get it past the filibuster procedure, a simple 51 votes will pass it in the Senate.

The problem for moderate Democrats is that a vote for the procedure may amount to the same as a vote for the bill when it comes time to defend where they stand in the next election. It will be tough for them to say "I voted to allow it through, but I didn't actually support it".

Harry Reid is just hoping he get's past the procedural vote, and then he's home free - except with his own voters in Nevada next year.

It should be interesting to see what happens in Virginia and New Jersey next week - If the Democrats lose both races, it will make it very hard for Senators and Congressmen to fall in line with the liberal agenda. They may fear the meaning of the words;

MENE, MENE, TEKEL, PARSIN.

Rasmussen polls (the only accurate polling system) says that the majority of people do NOT want Government run health care. Mores specifically, as of today 57% believe their cost will go up if the Gov. gets involved and 53% think quality will go down. Rationing is inevitable. In Vancouver BC, just north of me, they have had to stop doing neurosurgery and other surgical procedures because their government run care is bankrupt.

Look up Claude Gastonguay--father of Canadian Gov. single payer health care on Google. He says their system is bankrupt and the only hope is privatization to "give people more choice." Ooops! that is what we already have!

pj--

It might not be that simple. A large number of congressmen and Senators are from states that are very vulnerable. They basically ran as Republicans--on the idea of budgetary discretion (Blue Dogs) and they should know from what they heard this summer break that Obama is pushing them to vote for this awful bill but they will be walking the plank.

When the majority of people are against something you vote for Legislators, this time you will be signing your own death knell (speaking of your longevity in Congress/Senate).

State Opt Out--

Not really. This means they can opt out of benefits but still have to pay the taxes. Who will pay for someone elses medical care and then say "on the house--our state is opting out!" This is just a stupid ruse to rebrand government sindle payer care starting with a public option.

I'm a business person. The rest of you who are, how long could you stay in business if you had to compete with a competitor who was subsidized by the US government by 20% and could underpric you that much?

That is the "competition" envisioned by the Government Option. They will offer a plan we will all have to subsidize then tell us we have a choice to pay 20% (or whatever) more for the privilege of also having our private care. BUNK!

juno, Scott Rasmussen was a paid consultant for the 2004 George W. Bush campaign.

The only accurate poll? ...and the delusion of adequacy continues.

rfernandez

juno, Scott Rasmussen was a paid consultant for the 2004 George W. Bush campaign.

The only accurate poll? ...and the delusion of adequacy continues.

Prove it. Prove Bush paid them.

here is gallup's

http://www.gallup.com/tag/Healthcare.aspx

Prove that Bush paid rasmussen's.

Juno..Your a business person. How many employees do you have? Who is your current health care provider and what makes you happy about your current provider? How are you coming up with 20% more for having private care when nothing is written in stone yet? I honestly have a hard time digesting some of the posts on this board. Especially from posters who claim to be professionals.

Bigfoot,

You know the saying, Bullsh!t can get you to the top, but you will not be there very long.

demitrix, dubya lives only about five miles away from me in Preston Hollow. I'll run over and ask him for a copy of his receipt, hows that?

You can find that criticism of Rasmussen on line just as I did along with the criticism that they samples likely voters.

The last and most important issue in my cosideration of Rasmussen as impartial, conservative media frequently refers to Rasmussen, praising them for being the first to ask about a relevant issue or to ask questions that other pollsters do not, that is enough to convince me of the lack of value in their polls.

Conversely, the Gallup Poll, named after its inventor, the American statistician, George Gallup, Dr. Gallup founded the American Institute of Public Opinion, the precursor of The Gallup Organization, in Princeton, New Jersey, in 1935. To ensure his independence and objectivity, Dr. Gallup resolved that he would undertake no polling that was paid for or sponsored in any way by special interest groups such as the Republican and Democratic parties, a commitment that Gallup upholds to this day.

Rasmussen has been commissioned to do many different polls for special interest groups, answer your question, demitrix?

Crash and burn baby. The left is almost beyond comprehension when their "leaders" are a never ending parade of buffoons! Harry Reid, Nancy Pelosi, Barney Fwank, John Kerry, Howard Dean. That's just five and I thought it was only supposed to be the three stooges. It's like the freak show at the circus.

Prove that Bush paid rasmussen's.

Rasmussen was also within a point of predicting Obama's electoral margin. The Dems just don't want to deal with the emotional trauma required to accept that Obama is in negative double digits popularity-wise.

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/obama_administration/daily_presidential_tracking_poll

rfernandez " Rasmussen was ...The only accurate poll? ...and the delusion of adequacy continues."

It's easy to find extraneous things to criticize a pollster for, but the bottom line is how accurate they are.

In the last Presidential election, Rasmussen got it almost exactly right, while Gallup missed big time.

I'll go with the guy that gets it right for my info.

By the way, the latest from Rasmussen;

"For the first time in recent years, voters trust Republicans more than Democrats on all 10 key electoral issues regularly tracked by Rasmussen Reports. The GOP holds double-digit advantages on five of them."

Obama is the cow that kicked over the lantern. You may blame the cow for what he did. But you must remember he is only a cow. Look deeper look at the liberals in the democratic party and see who's supporting them

Any 'public' option that allows states to opt out is NOT a true public option. Should the sick, uninsured, or uninsurable have to move to have the option of health insurance?

If all insurance companies (health, life, liability/malpractice to name a few) were non-profit (as it should be), this crisis would likely not even exist.

The Democrats want to create competition as their main argument supporting the public option. Then why haven't they included the ability of ALL insurance companies competing across ALL 50 states in this bill? After all, the public plan will be offered across all 50 states should this bill be passed. Sounds to me like our government wants private insurance to fail putting 100's of thousands of more people out of work. Looks like unemployment will continue to increase under this administration for years to come.

The guy has not even been in office for a year and has done a pretty good job of cleaning up the disgusting mess left by the previous religous nut jobs, as for goverment insurance I am on it in the form of car insurance USAA and they are the cheapest and best insurer out there.. if they don't spend all the money they take in it gets mailed back to me! Yes thats right I don't have to fill out pages and pages of forms I just recieve a check instead of getting used for bonuses for the corporate elite who's daddy's play golf together and went to yale together back in the day!!

Moderate hypocrites. Let them go private and see how they like it. They'd get hosed like the rest of us.

Moderate Dems and Reps are in bed with the Health Insurance Companies and would not do anything to upset their Lobbiests.

The money will be theirs as a lobbiest as soon as they try and stop this overhaul and relenguest theis spot in Washington. They care not for the people of this country it is quite obvious.

Public option is the only way to stop all these Insurance Blood Suckers to get in-line with the real costs.

VFW American

I disagree. All our government needs to do is open it up for ALL insurance companies to compete across state lines like car insurance. That would keep the "blood sucking" to a minimum since the free market would resolve the issue. The only "blood suckers" here is our government. The only reason why lobbyists have any power is because our government chose to give them the power. So, stop blaming "big insurance" companies. Our government is to blame for ALL of this.

All our government needs to do is open it up for ALL insurance companies to compete across state lines like car insurance.

WHAT A CROCK. Go ahead, we'll have national monopolies as opposed to regional monopolies. Great, should save us a fortune....

I am sure that the benefit of the policyholders will be first and foremost in the minds of the insurance cartel CEOs when they price-fix, price gouge and collude against the general public.

The market doesn't solve everything. The fundamental assumptions of capitalism result in monopolies. My gosh, it needs to be required that every American citizen study Econ 101.

Without anti-trust legislation and involvement from the federal govt, there would be no choice at all.

Jerryf11: "The market doesn't solve everything..." very good point.

Jimmiesgirl & RoyWilson: also very good point on the political moves by Harry Reid.

Although the current Nev Poll shows that people think Harry Reid is weak, they support Public Option. Hence Harry Reid making such strong stand. In addition, Harry Reid is also calling out the legislators to come forth and identify themselves if they attempt to fillabust. Finally, there is a State Opt-Out option, which is a very smart pill for all the legislators who wants out despite their state voters. This is straight shot at those hidding behind the political shield for the corporations.

I believe Lieberman will be called out by his state voters soon... I can understand some of the position for the Republicans in Republican states, but in Blue states... these guys who will oppose will be labled not as heros, but as corporate lackeys.

I believe this is a very suprising, strong, crafty, and unexpected move by Harry Reid. Looks like he is learning from his counter part.

popeyethesailor

DUDE: Really the free market will heal all, do all, be the fix it all ,for everything, a free unregulated market left to itself DUDE will screw the consumer upside down and backwards, where in the blazes do you live? Mars!!! Surly your not that ill informed. Wht y is it that you idiot conservatives always forget what caused the regulations to begin with???? Conservative greed for more money...The desire to conserve it all for yourselves..../P>

The government should do their job which is to produce and enforce regulations to keep the free market fair for all. Taking an extreme position like you did would be like me making a statement that all you want is for our government to give you everything free because you don't want to work for a living. That would be as off base as your absurd remark about a free market.

Jerry,

You are correct that government should regulate. The free market is what made us a great Country, not socialism.

We are far from Socialism. If you travel to the Far East or to Europe and ask where is USA in terms of polictics. They will tell you how FAR RIGHT we are in respect to their countries. What is more, they are glad that we have moved away from EXTREME RIGHT...

By keep the economic condition stable and fair, our national economy will come out swinging. That portion of it, I am not worry. I am worry about the the ability of our government keeping our economy stable and fair. It has not been consistent in many years.

TWO CENT WORTH

go to charity hospital if you do not have insurance. it is free if you do not have a job. do not expect the rest of us to support you while you sit on your couch doing drugs.

WAKE UP AMERICA!!!

GO USA This administration (or any other) does not have the authority to put term limits in place. That would require an act of Congress. The executive branch is equal to the legislative branch is equal to the judicial branch. Our Constitution outlines three separate but equal branches of government. The duties and responsibilities of each are delineated as well. The president has no power or authority over the US Congress.

SO if the this administration does not have the authority to enact term limits how in the world do we have a health care bill????? This adminstration asked for that did they not? Are they not asking for congress to look at immigration? And any other items that they may decide they want? Why can not this administration ask for congress to put term limits in place.

Does this satify your desire to have every i dotted and t crossed.

Here's an interesting take.

The Constitution guarantees "equal protection" to all residents in the United States, which means that any laws passed by Congress must apply equally to illegal immigrants.

This means that any "health care" bills cannot exclude illegal immigrants from qualifying for coverage.

This is something that the media has not picked up on, but the Supreme Court would require - no matter what was called an "exclusion" in the bill.

Something to consider.

Our president has an UNCANNY GRASP FOR THE OBVIOUS. Let's give him a round of applause....CLAP, CLAP.

Of course it will be a tough health care battle ahead....

The bill isn't even written, government is voting on an etherbill that affects each American citizen (but we don't know to what extent), no matter what the outcome - it will cost each of us more than we are paying today....and the best part about this is that Congress, Senate and President don't really give a s$%^ what the American people are telling them.

Life is good when you're an imbecile at the top!!

Tough Healthcare Battle is Obamanese for "Tough Elections upcoming".

State Opt out is another load of Obamanure. The way it is written will give states the right to opt out with permission from the Federal Government. What do you suppose the odds are that approval will be given?

Just say NO to the public option and NO to the current health care bills, ALL OF THEM!

PLEASE, PLEASE READ THIS ARTICLE VERY CAREFULLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

BOTH DEMOCRATS AND REPUBLICANS, READ IT AND LOOK FOR THE MOST IMPORTANT STATEMENT IN IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Read it word for word, line by line and paragraph by paragraph. Look for what should be the most important statement in this whole Health Care Redistribution debate. It should jump right out at you. It should smack you right betwee the eyes.

BUT YOU KNOW WHAT? IT WON'T!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

WHY NOT??????

BECAUSE IT'S NOWHERE TO BE FOUND IN ALL THESE WORDS, LINES AND PARAGRAPHS!!!!

The most important statement should be,,,,

WE ARE DOING WHATEVER IS IN THE AMERICAN CITIZENS BEST INTEREST!!!!!

Read it. Look for it. Read it again. It's NOT there. WHY????

Because these Democrats DON'T CARE!!!! They only care about what THEY WANT it to be. Another government social program paid for by you, me and our children. Look at the discussion. This Senator wants this, this one wants that. This one doesn't like this but does like that!!!!!!!!!

NOWHERE is it stated, "we are doing this in the best effort for the citizens of the United States of America"!!!!!!

Here you have OUR government working for THEIR best interest. For their individual party agenda. For their bias regarding the largest government takeover of private industry in our HISTORY!!!!!

HERE WE HAVE THE GOVERNMENT WORKING FOR THEIR LEGACY!!!!

THEY JUST WANT THEIR NAME ON THIS, SUCCESS OR FAILURE BE DAMNED!!!!!

"...health care legislation is posing problems for moderate senators whose votes are critical to passing the bill....."

Dear Senators :

You have two options: One: You can either resign now or Number Two: wait a couple of months so WE THE PEOPLE CAN KICK YOU OUT.

You have your choice, congress.

Harry Reid is a moron! He thinks we will fall for the old bait and switch? An opt out version, really? Like the states are going to say, "we'll pay for it, but we won't use it." DUH

I live in a trailer with a 12 year old car, but I have insurance. And you want me to feel sorry for the irresponsible ones who are getting kicked out of their 500,000 homes because they got sick and didn't get insurance? I don't! If you feel benevolent and want to help them out, go right ahead, but don't mandate me to!

Kick them all out, they are so out of touch with reality its pathetic! No career politicians. They are like diapers, they need to be changed often and for the same reason!

Drop this dam health-care, When have millions of people who are hurting with out jobs it the economy first you fools

Since the last public option medicare was so successful at reducing prices lets do it again. The per capita health care cost has increased around 900% from 1960 to 2006.Guess we are doomed to repeat history because we sure have not learned from it.

Mandating Health Insurance on everyone is un-Constitutional and if it passes we will vote put every one of those scums in Washington!

Term Limits on Congress!

Doo-Doo, you are exactly right. But, the socialist agenda that allows these hipocrites to spend and waste YOUR MONEY is different.

When it comes to voting for this Health Care Reform, watch the majority of Democrats back out.

New Health Care Reform is just an "Idea", one that Obama thinks overrules in importance over the Wars,deaths of soldiers, our economy, unemployment, foreclosures here, right at home.

Table the Health Care Bill, President Obama. President, keep your priority, dissing Fox News.

It's much safer than this cockamamie Bill..

There won't be enough votes after next Tuesday. The focus will be on the the 2010 elections. If the election were held tomorrow, the Democrats would lose up to 10 seats.

They want to cram this bill though now because the possiblity of republicans being able to reverse with a majority in the house and 60 reliable votes in the Senate even in 4 years is very slim to none. Once it gets started in 2013, it will be like social security, medicare, and medicaid - stuck with a red heron that no one will even want to touch to try to fix.

I see the insurance shills are out in force today. Getting a little worried are you?

Anyone who thinks health care will cost more only if we enact health care reform is an idiot! It goes up every year by double digits. How can you possible think it's going to be worse with reform? It can't get much worse! It affects our economy, it affects business and it affects the number of jobs we have. Without health care cost reform, we can't rebuild the economy.

Let's look at it from another point of view: how much will it cost to continue the status quo? Currently we are paying $2.9trillion a year for health care costs. That's 17% of our GDP! By the 2017, that is estimated to become $4.3trillion. The cost of coverage for a family of four will be $25,000 annually. How is this sustainable?

We're the only industrialized nation in the world that does not offer health care to our citizens, yet we rank 37th in world for quality of health care. This includes longevity, infant mortality, etc. where we also rank dismally in comparison. Other countries do this and spend less of their GDP than we do. Are they so much smarter than we are?

http://tiny.cc/RAND185

http://www.nchc.org/facts/cost.shtml

http://www.familiesusa.org/assets/pdfs/unemployed-and-uninsured.pdf

http://www.photius.com/rankings/healthranks.html

Doctors, nurses, hospitals, medical researchers, drug manufacturers will all become slaves of the government under the government option!

You loose any credibility you might have, which is minimal anyway because of your overall tone, by starting out accusing anyone who disagrees with you of being an insurance company shill.

Typical liberal attack mode, and I didn't read anything else.

I don't think many are saying that there shouldn't be reform. It's how the dems are going about it. Their idea is to make higher earners and companies pick up the tab, but all this will do is increase costs to consumers in other ways. We can all pull references and numbers to back up our positions, but do you really think the government is going to do the best job. You read about all of the waste in the current medicare & medicade systems. Well. how did that happen? From government run operations! Think! Competition is the best answer to lowering costs. Open things up and you'll see companies compete for business.

Brandon, YOU LIE!!

Throw the BUMS OUT, vote out any so called representative that votes for this SOCIALIST piece of crap of a "reform" bill. If the coverage is not good enough for our representatives, it isn't good enough for the tax payers! Do not let them ram this disaster down our throats.

Remember NO INCUMBENTS !!! Make this your pledge.

Who did that poll, moveon.org?

I would think that something this huge, something this massive, should be left to the voters. How can politicians vote something like this in without a constitutional vote?

It had to be move on.

As much as I have been reading most people do not like any of this health insurance crap. It was created by the Obama Administration. I often wonder why? When they first started this mess 85% of the people that had insurance were satisfied with what they had. Others fell under other plans set in place as a safety net created by our votes. Obama and others said that we lose over $700 billion dollars a year with fraud and waste. Fix that first then come back when you are finished. In the mean time can you please ask Congress why they haven't done their jobs by preventing this great loss of our money? As for the new proposed program, stick it!!

We all know that the insurance companies have the interest of the people in mind. They will bend over backwards to help every person they can. I don't know why these silly people think every child needs insurance.

It's not our fault people are losing their jobs and insurance. Let them die we don't care do we guys? Call your Senator and tell them to keep up the good work, vote no on everything. We don't want to hurt the poor insurance companies. They are good to us they, sometimes keep their increases down as low as 10% per year. Hell my company pays for it they will just raise costs or lay a few deadbeats off. Health Care for everyone, what a crock. Next thing you know they will be trying to say their live is as good as mine.

Let me help you Roger. People lose their health insurance for following reasons.

1) Lose their job - this is a bad one for someone who has developed a potentially uninsurable condition that will may not be picked up by another company or an insurance company that will not write policies for certain conditions.

2) The lifetime maximum payout has been reached

3) Lie about medical conditions

4) Clerical Error

5) Insurance company goes bankrupt

6) Insurance company is not very reputable - there ARE several really bad ones.

2 of the 6 are eliminated by breaking the employer link. One additional problem can go away - less people will be left off insurance plans with uninsurable pre-existing conditions.

People will get real upset when they have to pay the whole bill, but then they will go find ways to pay less such as HSA's.

You know you have one hell of a porker with lipstick when Snowe and Collins will not support it.

Storm,

Really? Well, try these facts compared to your biased foot soldiers:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703298004574454893530315578.html

Hmmm funny - they get private and government options but I can't have the same courtesy???

To hear Obama tell it, his push for Government Option (eventually single payer) Healthcare is to help the poor and oppressed. To do it for Humanity!

One of my favorite philosophers, HL Mencken must have known Obama (though far before his time)or at least knew the true motivation of his ilk:

"The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule." I would add to "rule" the more modern word, "control."

Obama is only about control of our minds, bodies and spirits!

Maybe if congress had to live on the average Joe's health care instead of their PLATINUM PLAN, they might understand why we don't trust them to handle our health care. They were voted in (by those of us who voted) based on what they SAID they stood for, not what the party told them we said we wanted. I've lived at my address for 20+yrs...no one has asked me what I wanted them to work for, yet I repeatedly hear in the media what I and the rest of us want congress to do...BULL, the key Dems are going to ram this down our throats without out consent because Obama-san wants it, got elected on it and be damned if we're not going to get it for HIM...regardless of what is the BEST way for US. Don't allow us free access to any insurance company we want in any state. That just might make companies compete, maybe even lower prices. Don't investigate the BIG health care providers to see where their $$$ goes and to whom. And most definitely do not go after the waste in the current programs. No, just pass another law, that no one has explaind to us yet, and then tell us how much they are doing for us...BULL!!! We all got the $250. kiss...now we get the rest of the story.

I see the insurance shills are out in force today.

If I admit that I'm an insurance shill, will you admit that you're a card-carrying Communist? I mean we can both play this game, right?

StormAZ and others,

First of all, your attempts to paint the US as the"37th rated" blaming it on our health CARE system show your inadequacy in truly discussion the issue rather than just name calling and lying.

Longevity, etc are not primarily different due to our health care system. In fact, it is only the quality of our health care system that prevents it from being worse. Why is our nation #1 in terms of survivability of serious diseases but far worse in longevity?

Because of lifestyle. Anyone with more brain cells than an amoeba having a shred of honesty would appreciate this. It is patently impossible for our health care system to be both the cause of shorter life expectency (a metric including people who never ever see a doctor) yet higher success and survivability for serious diseases?

It is crap like this that kill the conversation. IF and I mean IF this marxist administration really wanted to FIX and IMPROVE things, they would first look to preserve the things that we are best at. They have not. This is nothing but another grab for power. Another unethical "redistribution of wealth". And yet another opportunity for the weak and mindless liberals to avoid discussing the facts and merits of this issue, and instead fall back on "bush bashing".

PLEASE, PLEASE READ THIS ARTICLE VERY CAREFULLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Hey Wolf, how many times are you going to repeat your mindless drivel that was spoon-fed to you by the whackjob Beckerhead? Just curious.

Say yes, to health care reform and stop whining just because your candidate did not win the election. By the time the Tea Party lands in Orlando, the deal will be done. Go Mr. Obama, we still support you.

Dennis, if you could see past party lines, you would see his post for the truth that it contains.

The taxation, fees and premium increases to pay for this (which is questionable that it is sufficient) will start almost immediately.

No one, no matter how much they need it, will be helped for at least three years.

No matter how much of a rabid liberal you are, you have to be able to see the problem with that. And with the fact that the bulk of the costs for this will be taken from the middle class.

Please, try to view this objectively and not through party-tinted glasses. It doesn't matter who's pushing legislation, if the legislation is bad.

Dennis, this isn't whining. This is the American People (Democrats, Republicans, Libertarians) speaking out and voicing their opinions. Just because you do not agree doesn't make it whining. This is what happens when liberties get threatened!! Americans speak out!! Its a true shame you cannot see that.

Another issue to ponder and I have not heard any of the supporters of Obamacare address. Fees, taxes, surcharges etc will be collect 3 years in advance of giving government health care. Can we trust the politicians (crooks) in Washington not to spend that money on pork projects by putting IOU's (which they can't pay back) in the healthcare account. This is exactly what they have done to social security which is on the verge going bankrupt. Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me.

Easy to explain. They don't want it in place until AFTER the next Presidential election. 'Cause when people actually see that, with Obamacare in place, they are, with Federal taxes, FICA, etc, plus Obamacare, giving 50% of their hard-earned money directly to the Federal Govt every month .. the current Admin wouldn't be elected dog-catcher.

I agree, Dennis. I voted for this, and I am happy that it may actually go through against the efforts of the insurance and drug companies. 40,000 Americans die each year because they can't afford health coverage. That is embarrassing. This is a moral issue, not an economic or political issue. We are the only industrialized nation in the world without some form of universal health care.

No, what they can't afford is health CARE. The cost of health CARE is through the roof, and one major reason?

Government meddling. Via underpaying through Medicare/Caid, inconsistent regulation, anti-trust exemption, pandering to special interest group and lobbies ie insurance and pharma, etc etc etc.

40,000 people, out of 307,000,000, barely 1/1000 of a percent of the population in this country?

You justify breaking the system for 85% of the people in this country, for 1/1000th of a percent?

How about breaking it for 85%, for the 8 million people that legitmately can't get insurance? At least that's 2% of the population, but really, do 260,000,000 have to get screwed to help 8,040,000? Isn't there a BETTER WAY!?!?

Yes, there are dozens of better ways, but this Congress won't do them because this isn't about that 2.0001% of the population that actually NEED help. It's about control.

And, there is no help for three years.

The big lie. If it is so critical to pass health care right now in order to cover and save ~40 million people (illegals as well) please explain why it does not go into effect until 2012. The BS coming out of this administration knows no limits. It makes the Bush administration look like amateurs. We the People can't afford it, We the Peolpe don't want it. Just Say No!!! to the Obama care lie.

I actually agree. If this gets passed, we should go ahead and implement it. There's no reason people should continue to die for the next two years because they can't afford their health care.

Hey,

Here's a really scary article that I read about the White House Health Care Advisor. None other than Rahm Emanuel's brother. And, oh boy, what he has to say is truly shocking. If you're old, too bad. You had your chance. Health care has to be rationed, and it's going to the younger ones first.

This really just confirms to me what the current administration is all about : A bunch of thugs are running the country.

http://www.washingtonpolicy.org/Centers/healthcare/opinioneditorials/chilling_view_healthcare_advisors.html

Mike--

You are sadly mistaken. No 40K a year die because they don't have healthcare or even insurance. There aren't even 40K uninsured. Where is your source--didn't think you had one as that is a trick right out of "Rules for Radicals" by Obama's mentor, Saul Alinsky (Dedicated, by the way, to Satan, the first Radical). Just make something up and repeat it and repeat it until it seems true.

In the US we already have Medicaid to help the poorest citizens and the rest not on Medicaid can go to any emergency room and have to be treated!

The bogus figure I think you are using here is Obama's 40K are uninsured. That has been proven untrue too. Most of those who don't have insurance counted in this number are either young folks and others who would rather buy something else like a boat (make $70K or more but choose not to insure) or illegal aliens. The real number is around 14K. We should give them health stamps like food stamps if they aren't on Medicaid--don't mess with the nearly 80% of Americans who are happy with their healthcare and don't want to change. (check Rasmussen--a real poll not just numbers pulled out of thin air).

Mike in FLA,

If 40,000 people dieing a year is a moral issue because they can not afford health insurance, why would you support this bill which will pay for abortions?

http://www.time.com/time/politics/article/0,8599,1909178,00.html

This article shows how the government has already paid for over 300,000 of them. Lift the blinders, planned parent hood will be the new school nurse. Children will have abortions without parental knowledge or consent.

http://prolifeaction.org/faq/abortion.htm#yearly

Say yes, to health care reform and stop whining just because your candidate did not win the election.

If this is how you reduce the issue - to resentment, then you grossly misunderstand the debate.

Please, try to view this objectively and not through party-tinted glasses. It doesn't matter who's pushing legislation, if the legislation is bad.

Wow PTF, you've got some nerve considering you don't practice what you preach.

So how, praytell, could the govt, or a private entity for that matter, institute a program of this scale, with the required infrastructure, upon passage?

That's like asking a private entity to open their storefront immediately after the approval of building permits.

Nice try, keep making yourself look foolish. I can understand the conservo aspect of your view resulting in opposition to the bill, but let's try to keep your opposition based in reality.

Clearly, instead, you're going to feed everyone the Faux Noise, Glen Beckerhead talking points. Oh, but you're non-partisan.....

I was hoping to see some intelligent discussion, sadly I was mistaken

ferrosynthesis, these people have gone completely insane since Obama won the election:

• All of a sudden Government is out to get them but these same people had no problem with the patriot act that allowed the government to spy on them.

• They talk about not wanting to send the bill for healthcare reform to their grand kids but don't mind sending them a bill for Iraq

• They have a problem czars but fail to realize that we have had them for decades and Pres. Regan (their god) had them too!

so don't expect intelligent discussion from the right because you wont get it!

And we get no responsible discussion from you either.

If we did, you'd realize we're just as much against billing our unborn grandchildren for unwinnable wars as we are billing them for our diverticulitis and prostate issues.

You'd realize that it is possible to have opposed Bush's policies, voted for Obama .... and when in the fullness of time, his true agenda became clear ....

Oppose Obama.

I know, it's complicated. People that actually think about stuff and don't just follow blindly along like a sheep sometimes get that way. Sorry if you can't keep up.

You want to make sweeping generalizations about people, go ahead. Because I could make a sweeping generalization regarding all liberals that post here, that you're lazy cowards who are too afraid to compete in the real world so you want the government to nanny you from cradle to grave. But I don't make sweeping generalizations, as a generalized rule, so I want. Just saying I could, ya know.

your generalizations would be based on your own bias of what a liberal is but the statements that i made are based on what i have read right here on the vine... when did you read a post by me or anyone else for that matter saying that we don't have a job or want the Gov. to provide us with everything?

You havent but I have read posts that complain of the government being out to get people. I have read posts form ppl on the right about how bad czars are. So i can generalize because what i stated IS generally what the people on the right believe according to the posts I have read on the Vine.

Well, you're generally wrong.

Because I say so.

Commonsense--

Because this government is out to destroy us and that could be considered "out to get us!" If you are over 50 or ever will be you should be very afraid of this death panel attitude! Daschle himself said that older people won't get treated, they will just have to suffer. You might be young now, but you will be old (and I will be old) someday unless this healthscare kills us off young like some of Obama's advisors would like to "reduce the surplus population."

Well, you're generally wrong.

Because I say so.

way to go thanks for proving me and Ferrosynthesis right.

Because this government is out to destroy us. 5.6

How is the Government out to destroy you? give me facts not talking points please.

Juno, when did Tom Daschle say that? can you source that? look, once and for all there are no death panels nor will they be any once the public OPTION is passed. This crap is a fear tactic that was invented by the quitter Sara Palin.

Good for you, commonsense! Ever so often someone dares to stand up to these idiots on the vine, and it ALWAYS silences them - evidence that they don't know what they're talking about to begin with! Just a lot of imagination, paranoia, and trying to force their silly viewpoints on others.

You want to make sweeping generalizations about people, go ahead. Because I could make a sweeping generalization regarding all liberals that post here, that you're lazy cowards who are too afraid to compete in the real world so you want the government to nanny you from cradle to grave. But I don't make sweeping generalizations, as a generalized rule, so I want. Just saying I could, ya know.

Wow, where to begin. I don't disagree with the notion that people could be anti-Bush and anti-Obama. I am more of the hate-Bush, lukewarm on Obama mode.

But for you to suggest you don't make sweeping generalizations, about liberals in particular, is ridiculous. All one has to do is read a handful of your posts in various threads to see that statement is total nonsense.

Now, of course, the flip-side. You have conservos like you who practice capitalism like a dogma, act like God is going to save the day and should dictate social agenda, and believe that people should be able to rob Peter to pay themselves. Personal responsibility = I gotta get mine, f$%k everyone else.

This country is often referred to as the great experiment. In terms of population diversity, sociopolitical structure and economic policy. As someone who works as an engineer, let me assure you, if an experiment fails, you do not continue to run the same experiment.

Pure capitalist, free market dogma does not work, has never worked, and only exists in a utopia. What we have as a result, in the real world, is a crony capitalist top-down oligarchy where free trade results in fewer US jobs and depressed middle class wages.

It is the same way that Marxist socialism would only exist in a utopia, and its real-world application leads to military dictatorships found in the USSR or China.

Well, you're generally wrong.

Because I say so.

Narcissist much? It's more like because Glen Beckerhead says so, isn't it? Let's not kid ourselves, there is no original thought on your behalf. Just like your diatribe earlier in the thread about the "truth" and "lies" of Obama, those are Faux Noise talking points if I ever saw them.

Tort reform? Hah. B!tch that you don't want to limit private enterprise to gouge people and deny coverage, but you' limit a law firm's ability to earn, and an individual's right to renumeration? Hypocrite much?

And the savings, at best 1%, from the stats I have seen. Whoopdeef'ing do.

Here's the only math one needs to understand about this issue.

Medicare overhead costs - roughly 5% of monetary pool

Insurance cartel overhead costs - roughly 30% of the monetary pool

For anyone who cares about saving money, take 25% of the TRILLIONS of $$$ spent on healthcare in this country, that's the savings. Period. Any argument beyond that is obfuscation, period.

So, you either believe that the people can pool their money together, both to limit liabilities and bargain rates. Or, you believe that people should opt for private entities to do this for them, in smaller groups, with less savings and less assurance.

It's a simple debate really. People think that "oh my gosh, I don't want big brother to control my life". Guess what dumba$$, time to take your head out of the sand, they already do. But instead of DC, you should be looking at Wall St, they're the ones who rule you, me and everyone else, including DC. So I fail to see the benefit in defending Wall St profits of private insurance entities.

Notwithstanding lacking leadership skills, Barack H. Obama lacks the confidence of the people whom he has repeatedly deceived with his rhetorical jargon manipulating the minds and hearts of young adults and youth simply because of the color of his skin and the propaganda spouted about the previous administration, which Mr. Obama has himself enlisted the selfsame tactics demonstrating how hypocritical Mr. Obama truly is while also lacking truth, honor and integrity.

Hey grandpa, piss off. I am no apologist for the guy, but to suggest I voted for the guy because of the color of his skin?

Racist. You DIDN'T vote for him largely because of the color of his skin, that much I can tell you.

Oh, and the rhetoric? Perhaps I voted for Obama because McCain was a stiff, and his Veep choice was the single least-qualified, least intelligent, most divisive person he possibly could've chose. With Mc(in)Sane in office, WWIII would be in full swing as we probably would've already "bomb bomb bombed Iran". And that nutjob Palin would've been one heart attack from the Pres.

I don't see many people complaining about the trillions of dollars wasted in wars on two fronts. Those dollars could easily surpport healthcare for all. What's the matter with so many of you--destructiveness in other countries but not constructiveness in our own? Disgusting!

Maybe you'd rather wear a burqa and stay home all day because you are not allowed to work or have an opinion. The radical muslim fundamentalists are very real, very dangerous and multiplying in great numbers. They took 2 buildings down and murdered 3000 americans without firing a shot. Don't underestimate them. It's our lifestyle vs theirs - which one do you choose?

NotsoFinetuned...your OWN gov't orchestrated 911 and all you sheeple were none the wiser. Naive and eager to swallow any propaganda you're spoonfed. It's RADICAL GOP FUNDAMENTALISTS we should all be worried about.

THEY are the reason we're in the predicament we're in....catering to the greedy instead of helping the needy. To be a Republican means to have no concern for your fellow man and concern only for yourself and what benefits YOU.

GOP = party of selfishness, greed and narcissism.

I'd like to add this :

Words of Wisdom by one of the biggest proponents of healthcare reform who unfortunately will never see his dream come true:

If by a liberal, they mean someone who looks ahead and not behind:
Someone who welcomes new ideas without rigid reactions:
Someone who cares about the welfare of the people...
Their health, their housing, their schools, their jobs, their civil liberties:
Someone who believes we can break through the stalemate and suspicion that grips us;
If that is what they mean by a Liberal;
I am PROUD to be a LIBERAL.

- Sen. Edward M. Kennedy 1932-2009

The GOP is the biggest THREAT to the wellbeing of this gov't and it's citizens.

Gemini618-You are an idiot. The government did not orchestrate any such attacks-it was radical islamists. Sen. Kennedy was one of the worst Senators we have ever had. He is a perfect example of what is wrong with Washington. There too long and not doing a damn thing. His only concern was getting re-elected. Being a Republican means taking care of your own business and helping others, but not being forced to by government.

So, Dani, if 37% of the waste you accurately state comes from unnecessary testing, medications and procedures that Dr's do to protect themselves from malpractice ....

Where's the tort reform? Not in this bill, because the Dems don't want to take on the trial lawyer lobby. They've publicly admitted that.

Taking the health care system out of private hands isn't part of this legislation, not yet. They're saving that for about 8-10 years from now, when this fails - as they know it will.

They are setting us up for failure, doesn't that bother you?

Diabetes and heart disease are NOT health care industry caused issues. It is a life style issue or a genetic one. Treating them are health care industry issues. If this bill said all Americans could not ingest more than 30 grams of sugar, and had to exercise 1 hour a day, then that would help reduce these diseases.

Americans have the poorest diet in comparison to all the countries that are used to provide you with those numbers.

They are betting on people not understanding things by making these spins on statistics. They are misrepresentations of the truth. I would call them lies. It just isn't true what you're repeating.

An apple is round, and banana is not. They are both fruit, but are they the same? NO.

Dani go today to a goverment runned health care hospital or community free clinic, then go to a private runned hospital, clinic then get back to me.

The reason we are so unhealthy is because of poor PERSONAL choices. We eat more fast food, more fried foods and more sugar than most contries. Its not the healthcare industry's fault that people make poor choises in their lives, and government health care cant make people change either.

Hey, maybe Obama should start getting into our personal lives now. He can tell us what to eat and when to eat it. America will have a National Exercise hour every day at noon. Be outside exercising or go on the list. lol

Dani - You are right about one thing, the US spends more per capita on health care than any other nation. However, you fail to notice that the current legislation does nothing to address the REAL costs that are driving this spending. How does providing insurance to a bunch of people who are uninsured and paying for it by taking money from insurance companies, medical professionals, the currently insured, tax payers, and that pesky national debt address the rising costs to provide care? Is that real reform?

No the next crisis will be to take over the food industry and make sure no one can sell you junk food, then the only junk food you can eat you would actually have to cook at home, at least that would burn some calories!

The six years that the GOP had complete control of government (all 3 branches), I never heard a peep about tort reform. Not that it's the answer by any means, but it's funny they start shouting this mantra once they're powerless.

Clotho---very true and very sad--not one of our finer moments--I don't believe tort reforms would solve all promblems-- but I do believe it would lower health care cost----I would like to see us try and fix what we have before going to national health care program that private insurance companies could not compete with

Dani,

That is so far over the head of most of the people who post on here, but kudos to you.

many speak about personal responsibility as if that is the only factor involved. It is not. Google "social determinants of health". If people do not have access to good food choices--don't have jobs and dollars or perhaps they live in an area with no grocery stores (this does happen in big cities) what are they going to eat? If there is no access to safe living space or clean water, what are they going to do? You must live in some isolated world of your own--because this IS happening in the great United States of America! Pockets of third world country living are here in the US and we should be outraged. Especially since our infant mortality rate is higher than some third world countries.

What percentage of the population is living in these conditions in the US?

50%?

Naw, and you know it.

3%, maybe, and I think that's a stretch.

So, once again, you're advocating breaking the health care system that works fairly well for 85% of the population, to cater to the "disadvantaged", often self imposed, of 3%?

Does that make sense? Or should the cities in which this occurs maybe use some of that awesome stimulus money to FIX THEIR WATER SUPPLY!?!?

Treat the disease, not the symptom. Health care 101.

By the way? The infant mortality bleeding heart twang has been debunked widely, based on huge variants in reporting methods, as in a 28 week premmie that dies here, counts as an infant mortality. In other countries, it doesn't. We can also frequently save that 28 week premmie, other countries can't.

Pragmatic

No one has to "break the health care system". It is broken. Maybe it works fairly well for YOU, because YOU have never had a costly illness, but don't sit there and assume that this is true for 85% of the population.

This would not even be an issue right now, if what you say were the truth. You just spout things, and don't even think what you are saying!

What in the world makes you think that the government running health care will result in less obesity, diabetes and heart disease? When you call the government health care "customer service line" in a couple of years, each nimwit you will be talking to will be a fat, lazy bureaucrat who has all three of those diseases.

Do some simple research.  The current administration has nothing to do with how fast the appropriate vaccine could be cultured, tested, and mass produced. Would you rahter of had it produced with no testing?????

Ah, yes... but it was Obama, months earlier (this year) that proclaimed H1N1 no particular problem to be worried about. Remember that? An now he proclaims it a National Health Emergency... just about the time the decision is being made on "Health Care Reform!"

Lianne

You are lying. President Obama never said that. You are making it up - as you often do. Are you a troll???

Very True!

Someone should tell him to stop lying also. Insurance companies profit is about 6%. I have heard them say profits are as high as 400%. That is just a blatent lie. It is amazing how many people just blindly believe what this guy says.

Please don't blindly believe me. Do your own fact checking!

I agree with you. There was a story earlier about the profit margins and how the numbers had been inflated to support this blatant power grab.

The 400% is the percentage that premiums have risen in the past (I believe) 10 years. This is done to protect their profits, which are 2-6%, yes.

The problem is, none of the legislation being considered, public option or otherwise, goes to the root of those increases, which is the rising cost of health care itself. Of which 1/3 is wasted, and 37% of that is spent on defensive medicine.

And there's no tort reform in this bill.

Prag,

That may be the source of the number, but a Democratic Congressperson (forgot name, but I found it via google) had used this as an attack on the insurance companies. My point is that they're lying to advance their bill.

You are absolutely correct in your second para. As I've said so often, I am not against health care reform. I am against this bill, as it is not health care reform, it is nationalization of the health care industry. It was written by the far left members of Congress in closed door meetings, and I have zero confidence that our congress (dems and repubs) are qualified to write such an extensive and far reaching program. If this was done right, there would have been research programs, think tanks, and oh yeah, experts allowed to participate in the process. ALL of these people were excluded from the process of writing the bill.

How come it is so obvious what Obama is doing to us, yet those few who undyingly support him cannot see past his shirt tail?? It is blatantly obvious that Obama is a liar and is manipulating the youth of this nation with his charisma and charm. Maybe its because I'm just not that naive anymore! Have you seen how much Big Labor has payed out to Democrats and RINOs this year alone? Its shocking. They give to the Dems at a ratio of 98% to 2%. The 2% is mostly Other parties, not Reps.

what obama is doing is saving this country from being turned into a third world country

Bob

The country isn't what you read in this blog. The real world doesn't sound like this. Obama has widespread support, although not 100% because he isn't perfect. But he's a lot more realistic than what you see here. We desperately need health care reform and single payer is by far the best, but that will never go with the gullible Americans who listen to rightist distortions and, as anyone with despotic inclinations knows, lies said enough times eventually get support.

He's trying to do the right thing and I for one hope he does get it done.

brad, me thinks you got it backwards. Sounds like you believe Chris Matthews & Oberman on the lowly rated msnbc.

Obama might have widespread support.

Congress does not. Their approval rating is 21%. 49% think we'll be better off with NO reform as opposed to this reform.

Obama wants X, and many many people agree with his utopioan principles of expanded coverage and lower cost.

Congress wants to do Y squared * M to the third power/the square root of a flecksnart +/- a booger, to accomplish X, and only 45% favor passage.

I seriously question how much attention those 45% are actually paying, or if they're just hearing Obama's words and wrongly assuming Congress is going about doing this the right way.

*All stats, Rasumussen home page, except the equation which I made up with a little help from Jimmy Neutron.

Ferro, define wide spread! His support is dropping in my area of the Country. From what I've seen people like his personality and his, um, his um..... Ok he has personality.

And all that business he's going to give GE for the healthcare "reform," cap and trade, etc. Are they NOT going to keep their profits?

By 2010 there won't be a Republican party. Latest polls show only 20% of Republicans even claim to be Republican. Also any Democrat legislator that does'nt vote for a Health Care reform bill with a public option might consider re-populating the Republican Party.

That is a crock. when the polls state that less than 25%of the population is liberal. That means you are out numbered 3 to 1. The liberals cannot win in the long run. Thank god for that. Most people still love their freedom and right to choose what they want. Vote all incumbents out in 2010 and 2012. Put this country back on the right track. The best thing they can do with their health care bill, all 2000 pages of it is to shread it.

wtfwwus

Why are you fighting for insurance companies??????????

So, instead of engaging in the same practice you seem to find so reprehensible of regurgitating party-line talking points....

Defend this bill with some facts.

Note: "Because I say so" is not a defense.

pj, I think a better wording of your point is that you find it hard to agree with their logic. I don't however see anything in your post except attacks.

Could that be because there is no logic to this bill? Logic has played no role in the Congress and Obama's plans. They want it so they have the philosophy of "hold breath for 2 minutes, jump up and down, cry a little, then repeat".

They should add up to a better health care system, that is more cost effective, and available to more people. The problem is the Democrat Congress X and Obama's Y DON'T ADD UP to that. Does that help you understand the problem many people have with this plan.

PS: Not everyone who is against this bill is against health care reform. Not everyone who is against this bill is a conservative or a Republican.

Please answer Pragmatic's request for facts on why this is a good bill, and then perhaps you can enlighten us all.

PJ, blah blah blah, Rush. Blah Blah Blah, FOX.. Your rediculous. Get a clue, most here don't have to listen to FOX or Rush to know what is going on.

pj thorton...you don't have a job do you? you don't have to support a family do you? bet you are a student who's tuition is being payed by someone else..probably one of those posters above that pays taxes. LOL, bet you don't pay taxes either...go do your homework...if you have nothing better to bring to the table than a bunch of insults you are nothing but a Obama party hack and if you haven't been paying attention many citizens of this country are tired of the same old rhetoric...Mr.Transparency is now holding meetings behind closed doors...meaning he is finally getting that "on the job training" he so desperately needs.

At least theres is some logic. All the far left dems and Obama and his croines want is power. They could care less about this country or its people. They could have done the right thing in the economy to create real jobs, but they didn't. They made sure that they jobs wouldn't be there. They are trying to destroy this country and make it a third world country. But they do not have a clue as to the resolve of the patriotic americans. If they keep up with their evil ways there will be a day of reckoning.

Pelosi will only keep her seat as Speaker of the House if the democrats retain the House. We can all work to keep that from happening. A single congressperson has very little sway.

Sorry for the double post.

Unless he quite his job halfway through his term...

But what elected official would do such a thing?

Don't worry, President Obama is doing just fine. He will finish this term and most likely a second.

I think some of the young people who got so excited about the election are realizing that real change takes some time, so the initial excitement is wearing off.

God help us all if this bozo is reelected. surely the patriotic majority of the United States love their country more than that.

Doctors will type into the government system your past medical history and then your present reason for seeking medical attention. A bureaucrat will evaluate your QALY. ( quality adjusted life years). If it appears your years left to live don't warrant money spent on a procedure, for instance a hip replacement or heart stints, you will be denied. You will be sent home with palliative care put on the death pile list and those that have the shovel ready jobs will be notified they will have another grave to dig soon.

Doctors will type into the government system your past medical history and then your present reason for seeking medical attention. A bureaucrat will evaluate your QALY. ( quality adjusted life years). If it appears your years left to live don't warrant money spent on a procedure, for instance a hip replacement or heart stints, you will be denied. You will be sent home with palliative care put on the death pile list and those that have the shovel ready jobs will be notified they will have another grave to dig soon

And what do you think the insurance companies do now?

A good friend of mine recently passed away because her insurance company wouldn't pay for her necessary post-cancer screenings and follow-up procedures.

My father cannot get insurance because of his diabetes, and pays $1500/month, out of pocket, for all his medication.

Nevada Dem, you're right. The insurance companies don't care about us, what-so-ever. They care about their bottom line.

They should dissolve them all as a public service.

Mike - most of us here agree that something needs to be done - just not this boondoggle. The Govt could pass a handful of Federal Health Insurance regs. - to go into effect in 6 months (like their credit card reg. changes) and 95% of the current problems would be solved overnight. Just make it illegal to deny coverage for pre-existing conditions, illegal to drop coverage, and illegal for courts to award more than $250 K in punitive medical damage settlements. Then put in place a tax subsidy to help low income earners afford coverage, on a sliding scale, and a Govt. arbitration board that you could go to, if an Insurance company denies a claim. Easy, and cheap. But that’s not what the Govt. wants. It wants to be able to reach into your and my wallets, and take 20% or our paychecks every month in premiums – as a new Govt. revenue stream - and provide third-world medical care in return.

Mike, what would be acceptable to you for your father to pay to stay alive? If this bill passes, and doesn't get repealed, and he gets insurance three years from now, how much should he have to pay of that $1,500 per month? Do you think he should only have to pay, say, $150? Because then 9 someone elses have to pay $150 a month too, with no medical needs, to cover his expense.

Do you think it should be free?

Do you think all the taxpayers in this country should have to foot the bill for your father, and all the other diabetics, heart patients, stroke victims, cancer patients, when the medical community is as out of control as they are with the testing and testing and testing, heroic but useless procedures, especially on the privately insured who they get paid more to treat?

I'm not asking this to be callous, I'm asking because this is the brass tacks of the issue: SOMEONE has to pay, medical care is not nor ever will be free.

I think the more valid question, based on the fact I too have an insulin dependent diabetic in my family who spends a fortune to be kept alive is ::::: Why does it cost $1,500 a month for what is basically routine medication?

And this legislation does NOTHING to address that issue.

And in fact, this legislation limits the government's ability to negotiate with pharma any further for Medicare/caid, because they supposedly already "gave" $80 billion. Who does THAT, legislates AWAY THE ABILITY TO NEGOTIATE?!?!?!? Only our Congress. And you still think they're in this for you?

Pharma is where the profits are heinous people, not insurance companies. But they're not being demonized anymore, because they "gave". Bull crap.

I was diagnosed with cancer this year and the insurance company has paid upwards of $60,000.00. I just got my renewal quote in and the premium was increased 10%; $35.00 in dollar terms. My type of cancer has a 70% chance of returning within 5 years and I'm quite sure that the insurance company is familiar with statistics, yet they renewed me and I was only with them since 1/1/09. That's right. I got the insurance in January and in April was having major surgery. No declining, no pre-existing b.s, although the doctors say the tumor has been there for about 8 years now!

I'm scared that the public option could be my only choice. They are not going to pay the higher priced doctors at cancer specialty hospitals (at least that was what was in the first draft). I've questioned the doctors at MD Anderson about this reform and I never got a verbal answer, but I got a look of disgust. They know that this reform crap would probably put them out of reach for a large majority of the public. These doctors are the top 1% in the world in their field so why should they get paid the same as anyone else? If you did your job 10x better than the next guy, wouldn't you expect to get paid more?

This bill addresses nothing but control. It does nothing to lower medical costs but if it passes it very well may lower the quality of our care along with raising our taxes and premiums. Then what.................

Maybe we can become MDs through BHOnline university to fill the gap.

61% of Americans in CNNs latest poll want a public option. So just like a majority of Americans voted for Obama when he promised to pass health care reform, a majority now support a public option. So keep dreamin. Republicans are out!!!

CNN polls are focused polls. They represents that 61% of people who read CNN support this. In no way is this representative of America. If you base your opinion on polls, FOX, CNN or any of them, you have never taken a statistics class. They are all focused to what the sponsor wants them to be. If polls were accurate, Nixon (1960), Mondale, Gore and Kerry would have been president.

But nice try. Next few elections, we'll see what Americans really want, and who will be out. Remeber elephants have an excellent memory, they will not forget all the lies and incompetence of this Administration and Congress!

I guess it depends on the poll. Pls see the Rasmussen and if I am not mistaken Gallup was similar or you may want to go to Real Clear Politics they have interesting Poll info up also.

If the health care plan proposed by President Obama and congressional Democrats passes, 57% of voters nationwide believe it will raise the cost of health care, and 53% believe the quality of care will get worse. That’s part of the reason that just 45% support the plan. The latest Rasmussen Reports national telephone survey finds that 51% are opposed to it.

Other polling released last week showed that 49% would rather see no health care legislation passed this year than see the current bill become law. Two-thirds (66%) say an increase in competition is more likely than increased government regulation to reduce the cost of health care. That’s one reason there is strong support for removing the exemption from anti-trust laws currently enjoyed by insurance companies.

double post may have been caused by computer error sorry

Remember they are keeping their health care system. The democrats made sure of that. Talk about fair play.

would you reward your kids for doing wrong. Not doing their chores,back talking,partying, reward them for having children out of wed lock. Thats exactly what the liberal democrats are doing. How do you help anyone by giving it to him for free.They are creating slaves in the name of voters. How can so many educated people believe we are helping the poor. To help the poor we should be training them and giving them jobs not handouts.

LOL so very true then watch how badly the taxpayer pay to teh merging pharacutical companys and some of the largest corperate hospitals. Then again a few of our goverment have special interest in those areas so heck.

Obama's argument seems to be that any profit motive is inherently bad. As a shareholder in several insurance companies and drug companies, I like it when they make a profit.

Isn't the entire world economy (even in communist China) based on the profit motive?

Mr. President - companies don't act on behalf of the people, or for the greater good. They make money if they can and if they don't they should go away. Give GM, AIG and all the other seized companies back to their owners and let them sink or swim.

Mr. President - companies don't act on behalf of the people, or for the greater good.

Packer, good post. It would be nice if President Obama read that, he could learn something.

I repeated a line of yours to add one thought.

It appears that our government isn't acting on the behalf of the people or for the greater good either.

That is a bigger problem than health care or company profits. They are too busy trying to run our lives than our government.

Regulation = yes; nationalization = no

If companies don't make profit, then it is called not for profit organization. And if it wasn't for the companies who make profit, then there would be no money to give to the non-profit organization. How can an insurance for profit company compete against a government "not worried about profit" company(because the gov. can create money and take money from the profit making company by way of taxes for its revenue) who does not have to compete?

What a whacked concept...if a public "option" is put into place, it will become the only option.

Plus people has seemed to have forgotten that Congress and the Pres. will not be on the plan. Once again, if it so great, then why will they not vote themselves in on the plan?

Profits for health insurance companies are normal? Any profit these companies are taking is healthcare that is being denied to someone.

Health insurance companies are an unnecessary middleman. We could cut them out of the picture completely, save hundreds of billions per year and pay for universal health care. We can lower our healthcare costs to a normal level compared to other industrialized nations which pay about half per citizen as we do. They pay half per citizen as we do and cover everyone. We pay twice per citizen as they do and don't even cover every citizen! How is that better healthcare?

That's like buying a car but not getting an engine with it. You gotta pay extra for the engine.

What's even worse is the government has already been trying to mandate the insurance companies open their books and financial records for government review. Uhm....that sounds like 'fair' competition. The entity that can change the rules to their favor to win. Uhm..that's competition? The entity that expects it's competitors to pay almost 40% of what they make to support it (meanwhile it does not pays taxes but actually uses the money from taxes from its compeitors to operate) that's competition?

To the anti-profit crowd, there are existing private non-profit insurance companies out there already. To those who say insurance companies don't have competition, ask Chuck Schumer what's happening with lifting the exemption for anti-trust laws which will allow real competition across state lines. I'm still waiting... To those who complain about those EVIL insurance companies who deny care, read the article Christina(above) posted and check out the comments by Robert Reich and Obama's czars (oops I meant advisers, or whatever it is they are) regarding their views on where cuts on healthcare will ultimately come from. (RATIONING) Have you been paying attention? States that have attempted a public option have reported their FAILURE due to deficits and having to cancel or roll back people being covered. (Hawaii, Maine, Tennessee, Massachusetts) Have you been paying attention to Germany? They are ready to try something new because their socialized method of healthcare is NOT WORKING. They are trying to introduce more private type solutions to improve their situation, and so is Canada. Krankee, if you think insurance companies are simply an in-between middle man to direct care, what do you think the government becomes? The abyss of unaccountable tax dollars. Show us a real health reform bill and Americans will support it, the current bills have nothing to do with improving health care or reducing costs, they don't attempt to target the true uninsured without trying to disrupt the whole enchilada. DO OVER.

Obama wants nothing more than to control everything....Remember he is the king

I think you mean Emperor.

Watch as he tried to kill the 22nd Amendment, he's already praising the illegal president in South America as a true visionary.

No I believe it is the behavior of a moron

No - it's the behavior of a president that can walk and chew gum at the same time. Rarely seen in the last eight years.

or maybe play basketball. Thats all he does, run his mouth with a lot of lies and play games. He doesn't care about your healthcare, only about the power he can gain over you.

Yeah they will be losing majority in Congress and then they will be losing the presidency to the republicans...The Dems are out

Good thing the bill doesn't kick in until 2012/2013. Hopefully it can be repealed before then.

Adam, Obama will be in town today to help a Democratic Candidate get voted into office as Governor. This being a primarily Democratic state for the last 8 yrs and the Republican Candidate is leading in the polls by double digits. I would say that Obama and the Dems are losing steam quickly due to their "Its my way or the highway" attitude! I'm counting the days till 2012.

Adam-1016829, hopefully both dems and repubs will be out in 2012. Framkly I'm tired of both those parties.

RABID-REPTILE-REPUBLICAN-BUG: A very large bug, 9-11 states long and 5 states wide, depending upon the time of year. In winter it's a bit smaller due to a lower food supply' It has multiple heads (Dick Cheny, Carl rove, George Bush) with the lower half of the HEAD having the appearance of a praying mantis with triangular shaped titanium teeth necessary for rending and tearing. The body shape is long and flexible like a cobra snake. Along the ground facing side are alternating battleship sized diamond shaped sucking/regurgitating orifices used to ingest the resources of SWEET MOTHER EARTH, the only inhabited/inhabitable planet of the Human Race, and regurgitate poisonous chemicals, gases, and toxins, into the water supply, the ground, the food supply of all agricultural and wild animal and plant life, and of cource human adults and children, causing cancers of various kinds and other poisons that kill adults, children and all other species of life on earth. This creature also has a mutimegaton titanium cylindrical roller 300 miles wide and 50 miles in diameter mechanically and genetically grafted onto the end of its tail with redwood sized flame-throwing torches and razor sharp blades mounted on the vertical circular sides of the cylinder. This adaptation is used to over-extend, extremely and excessively stress armed forces personnel, resulting in frequent and possibly unnessary wars in more tha one region of planet earth, and just run over, crush, and kill them, metaphorically speaking. This deadly Mother Earth Destroyer was deliberately designed to do these things by it's designers and builders. It must be exterminated by THE VOTE. If this is not done it and it's desingers/builders are allowed to continue with their philosify and goals, the United States of America will be totally destroyed internally by that philosophy and goals. This horrible bug, and it's designers/builders are anti-life, motivated only by greed, callous indiference to the safetyand security of all people not of their species. If we, the real humans of Mother Earth, do not get rid of them in all elections to come, the diastrous results will be our fault.

Ron, how typically democrat far left of you. If you cannot come up with something truthful to support your argument just start making crap up. Good writing though. I like your use of pronouns.

Bob, I hope I made you laugh. However, I do believe you should study the history of the Whigs, Republicans, Libertarians, Democrats, and why any of them goes "Independant" when they do. Party politics/philosphy/partisanship is destroying this nation. As a retired/disabled career GI, this is despicable and dishonorable to me. Not enough work together for the benefit of everybody. Study the historical data of the so-called political parties (groupings of thugs), then just THINK.

It is absolutely legal for the government to compete with private companies to provide a service it deems necessary for the public good.

Again and again, there are a series of poorly thought out scenarios about the devastating effects a "public option" or "socialized" health care to the economy of this country. All the while, nobody asks why there is $800 BILLION dollars worth of wasted health care spending every year in this country - People also don't seem capable of internalizing the fact that we are the only, ONLY, industrialized country in the world who spends so much and gets so little out of their health care system.

Something has to change and as usual, the republicans are only offering business as usual - I can't wait until this bill passes, public option or not, and actually works.

Spending an extra $100 billion a year for the next 10 years to cover everyone and reduce that $800 billion in annual wasted cost seems like a no brainer to me.

Rather than seeing it as an entitlment program, why can you look at it as something that citizens lucky enough to be born in the biggest economy in the world just have. Other countries, far less wealthy than ourselves, have figured this out. It's freaking embarrassing to me that we haven't done it yet.

BTW, it's also not just a democratic thing - Nixon actually tried to do it as well

Just ione little problem TKS - when was the last time a government "guesstimate" was actually even close to reality?

Now if they come up with a bill and include in it the fact that no more than 900 billion can be spent in 10 years i might go along...once that 900 billion is gone though, it ends even if it is only 5 years down the road.

If there is already all that waste and fraud in medicare why not fix that instead of stealing those funds (assuming they can even get them) to fund yet another program that you and I both know will have....waste and fraud?

If there are un needed labs and antibiotics to stem lawsuits why no provisions to limit lawsuits? you can't say you will fix one issue without addressing the other.

I don't agree with your statement about it being totally legal. Monopolies in general are illegal. That calls into question the Governments right to do it. This wonderful lucky thing you talk about isn't all that wonderful. I already have Government Insurance. I stand in lines, I get passed from one person to the other like meat. I don't know any of my doctors in a trusting way. It recently took me 6 months to get an ultra-sound. AN ULTRA-SOUND!!! It took 15 minutes. It took me another month and a half to get back to see my doctor to go over the results. It was a cancer threat. Thank God it didn't turn out to be cancer, because after 7 months, it could have spread throughout my entire body!!

Willie,

There is also this huge hero worship of the private sector? When are their estimates ever truly right? Private companies have no obligation to ask for public input or report each and every one of their failures - If I recall, it was public companies with no-bid government contracts that fleeced the taxpayer to the tune of billions of dollars in iraq and afghanistan - and they also endangered the lives of american soldiers in the process. It was a private company (hmmm.... Bechtel, if I recall) that screwed the pooch with the Big Dig in Boston, which leaks like a sieve and has killed people from faulty construction... The private sector messes up at least as much as the public sector....

And as far as limiting the spending to under 900 Billion, that is what people are talking about doing... And with regard to waste and fraud, it will never be completely stopped but I think it is a huge cop out to wait for reform, or the money for reform, until we recoup money my eliminating wasteful spending.

And Bob, Monopolies are Illegal but the Federal government is different. And I'm sorry to hear about your cancer scare - thank god it wasn't worse. I think your experience illustrates another fact - no matter what, getting sick and getting care is freaking HARD... it sucks for people with insurance, and afterwards, it still will suck, but - It's even worse for the millions of people who can't even wait for an ultrasound for 6-months... and, if people can get preventative care, maybe over time, we will be healthier as a country and spend less on emergency room visits.

There are a ton of valid concerns - but I haven't heard a single one yet that leads me to believe that keeping things as they are will be the best course of action.

tks

What's with the worship of gov run programs. They are all poorly run and going broke. This is what you want for health care? As for it being legal, no where in the constitution does it give the federal gov the power to create a company to compete in the private sector. None of the proposals so far do anything to reduce costs.

If you want competition then allow them to sell across state line. Try tort reform. These are easy to do and would not cost us anything. A public option could always be revisited if needed. But once in place you will never get rid of it no matter how bad it gets, it should only be considered as a last resort.

Actually, the vast majority of government programs, like social security and medicare/medicaid are not that poorly run. They are going broke because politicians have been stealing from their coffers to pay for other programs and reduce the annual budget deficit - with no thought to how that will affect the long-term solvency of the trust funds. Obama is one of the first not to do this...

TKS, so the Government run programs are going broke because the Government is mismanaging the funds? So basically your saying the Government cannot manage a social program? You also need to look deeper into what Obama does and doesn't do. lol.

LOL... And the governments that have traditionally mismanaged things have been Republican-run Bob

"They are going broke because politicians have been stealing from their coffers to pay for other programs" So you want to end up handing them 1/6th of the economy and expect they won't pilfer it too?

"There is also this huge hero worship of the private sector? When are their estimates ever truly right?"

I have a choice, if ABC says it will cost X$ and it is more I can go to ZXY company...with the government running I will have NO WHERE to go.

TK, both the Dems and the Republicans have miss-managed funds. I'm not calling either one out here. Or maybe I'm calling them both out! The fact still remains that it is the Government messing things up. I read an interesting E-Mail the other day that basically stated that since all Politicians run campaigns based on "Lower Taxes", wouldn't it make sense that we should not be paying any taxes right now?

It is quite obvious that the majority of people are against this plan.....

That is not obvious at all adam...

And people answering a question about how they think it will affect health care is not the same as asking if it's a good idea or whether or not they support reform.

Try asking the 50,000,000 people without any insurance if it will improve their health care.

50 million includes illegals. So you are saying people should support"reform" even though they think it will affect them adversely? People are for reform. This legislation is insurance reform, not health care reform.

Well, I disagree with your numbers (I've read that there are about 10,000,000 illegal immigrants) but...

There are definitely illegals there and if there is no recourse for then to get health care, then they show up in the emergency room and have to be taken care of on the hospitals dime - you can just let sick people die because they're not born here.... And, it would be a good idea not to tie health care/insurance reform to immigration reform. they are separate issues and should be handled separately.

And, the health care reform plans are budgeted to cover everyone after about 10 years and exclude illegal aliens from coverage so... maybe it will actually be cheaper... it's exceptionally hard to count all the illegal immigrants because they don't want to be counted, so, how is it possible that the census/tax collectors/authorities miss then and people counting the uninsured get the number spot on... the truth is, even if we insure everyone, there will be people off the grid who won't take advantage.

An people who don't care about insurance will be penalized in the new plan - they pay whether they like it or not. Which is fair IMO because they live in this society and their lack of health coverage will eventually lead to a costly emergency room visit that we will all be paying for eventually.

And people answering a question about how they think it will affect health care is not the same as asking if it's a good idea or whether or not they support reform.

Therein lies the problem.....your healthcare will not be better nor will it be cheaper......the government will run it. They are doing nothing to reform healthcare.....quality of life.....The government will now run health insurance and your premiums will still go up.

Healthcare in itself is not addressed.....Sad but true.

that is false Suzen - there is nothing about rising premiums for currently insured americans, if they go up for everyone, then it's a failure and should be repealed. In fact, if it were government run, there would be no "premiums".

I think that providing preventative care and basic health services to 50,000,000 people is an improvement in this countries quality of life.

Your quite the dreamer TK...but the truth of the matter is this will fix nothing...will raise taxes.....and you will be on here complaining that your now have to pay for everyone's insurance that does not take care of themselves.....They will enact a vat tax and there will be nothing you can do.....so you keep on thinking the government will take care of you....because it is just a big dream.

Healthcare reform would be ensuring doctors are doing what they need to do to get you in good health, not covering their butts because they are afraid of a lawsuit..... Your employment would give incentives for those who take care of themselves. Higher premiums for those that are reckless with their health. More diet programs and incentives for the poor. Instead of food stamps vegetable, fruit, and milk stamps....so there are no chips and soda purchased when you are government subsidized. There are tons of things that could be done to improve health....but it seems no one in the gov wants to get involved with that, after all that would drive down the cost of healthcare.

I think covering 50 million americans would be good to but there are not 50 million americans that what to be covered so they choose not to get insurance, americans that are eligible to get medicaid but do not.....and illegal aliens which I do not wish to cover.

I'm a dreamer? OK, that's fine - I imagine I'm not as synical as you are... The truth of the matter is that you don't know it won't work just as much as I think it will... but, the CBO, and an number of other people think it will help.

I also agree with a lot of your preventative care ideas in the 2nd paragraph and I don't think they should be discounted or mutually exclusive of wider reform. I do take issue with your food stamps vs. fruit and vegetable stamps... The reason that people buy junk on food stamps is because they are basically living in "food deserts" where the only place that is a reasonable commute (frequently they don't own cars) is a local convenience store with industrially produced, high-fructose corn syrup laden garbage... Getting healthy, local food to those areas would really help!!!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Food_desert

First off, when we say government-run, we really are only talking about the possibility of this public option being a part of the whole plan... a lot of the ideas about not allowing for dropping coverage, etc are included in the plan... either this bill passes with a public option or without one - either way would be a better system than the one that exists now.

TKS - How do we know that it's the "illegal aliens" getting their healthcare at the emergency room and not paying for it.  I've gone to the emergency room without insurance and paid for it.  Why is it always blamed on the illegals -

Don't buy the food deserts thing TKS - not saying they don't exist, but even the little grocery stores on the corner in NY have friuts and vegies.  In most stores they are the first step on the race track.

abitgreen, have you ever been to an emergency room in Dallas? They are filled with illegals (sorry, meant to say Future Democrat). It is manditory for them to be seen. They aren't documented so there is no legal way to get the money from them. That is how they don't pay.

No Bob. Most of my time in Dallas has been at the airport. I do wish they wouldn't change the gates so much. I've only been in emergency rooms a few times in my life.

!> It is a generalization to say it's just illegals who overload the emergency rooms nationwide and don't PAY for their care and that's the reason aspirin is $10 a pill. - I equate that to the comment "this is a crisis because people are dying in the streets". It's a sop sell to the dem white bread that don't really like those kinds of people being in the same party.

The further you get from the border areas of the country, the less dominance of an ethnicity that may or MAY NOT be illegal you would view in an emergency room. And that would be indicative of our demographics. However, there are any number (and kinds of ) people in the emergency room that won't be paying for the care that they receive.

BUT THAT is not the only reason that health care is as blasted expensive as it is! What is the expansion rate in hospitals over the last ten years, how many machines have they bought that could be multitasked but are sitting inactive and but has to be priced out as being available if it's needed because of some huge disaster. The Heart centers specializing in this and a gastro centers specializing in that. And NPR did a piece about the expense of stents that was very interesting.

How many Hospitals are for profit businesses - hypocatic oath notwithstanding. What's their profit margin? And I'm for them making a buck, but don't act all holier than thou, we have a higher calling than those evil insurance companies. We don't have attitude problems like they do.

Why does an office call at their acute care clinic cost 125.00 when under my old insurance is was 65.00 (I know the answer to that but it contradicts the idea that the insurance companies don't do anything to keep costs down.) The lab fees were comparable to what my ins paid so no gouging there.

Villifing only the insurance companies is the koolaid simple explanation for the problem and I think blaming the illegals borders on the same.

All in all, I don't care for any of these ginned up bills to fix a crisis that does not exist to fix problems that it does not address.

The only good thing that could come of this healthcare is that the 52% of the people who currently do not pay any federal income taxes in this country are finally going to have to start chipping in. It would be very refreshing if they finally had to start paying their 'fair' share. They think they are about to get something that other peoples' money will buy for them. They are about to be in for a rude awakening. I wish I could see some of the faces when paychecks are opened and mouths fall agape when the eyes reach the 'net' take home pay number.