Bruising debate awaits health bill in Senate

I agree with you 100% telmom32! When all the wealth runs out, who is going to pay? I have no idea how these socialist Dems think it is going to save us money. The money is coming from the middle and upper class. Before Obama, my family income was considered upper middle class, since he took office, we are slowly declining to lower middle class. It has been incremental increases in federal taxes. And for those Dem supporters, it is not an error in accounting. Congress needs to open thier ears, the working Americans do NOT want this healthcare bill. We need to vote all those who vote for this bill out next November. That's how we make change, get rid of all the reps and senators who have had thier seat in Congress for more than 10 years. We need to start over, fresh and not too liberal and not too conservative. That's the change we need.

Not to mention the unconstitutional nature of mandating coverage.

It's laughable that the whole intent was to reduce costs of health care. Once again our politicians take a good idea and get it decidedly wrong.

One thing needs to be added to this bill and that's to include Congress, not exempt them from the coverage. Then and only then can a real debate start.

This is where the Democrats will really do themselves damage. The truth will surface and they will will show themselves to be power hungry fools they are...

I am in the luxury end sales and service. we deal in private yachts, jets, real estate etc.... I can tell you the truly rich are well protected. The "so called" rich, what the Obama administration says making a combined income of 250k a year are soon to be extinct. the ridiculous thing is that 250k in new york is equivalent to 75K in chatanooga... you can barely get by on 100K in fort Lauderdale and then in Blackwater MO. you would be like a millionaire... the whole premise that there is a certain amount of income that has the same wealth "factor everywhere in the country is so incredibly flawed, it is wrong to begin with.

Regarding wealth and this insurance debate what our government is propsing to do effectively takes a huge chuck of it out of the "upper" middle class and redistributes it to the working poor AND the others in the middle class than can afford to pay a premium but simply do not want to! Okay that's their choice but now to have the government mandate YOU MUST BUY this insurance or you will be fined or TAXED AGAIN is absolute taxation without representation... considering that congress and others in government are exempt from this and fica... there are too many double standards.

The current regime is so corrupt we have just begun to see it... the recovery.gov website has been investigated but the media has turned and looked the other way... there are huge amounts of funds going to fictitious congressional districts.... it is absolutely blatant incompetence or theft on a scale never seen at the federal level .... so now you jelly brains want the feds to run health care? are you kidding?

It's hard to change the direction of a nation that's been adrift for at least eight years.

I agree we've been adrift...but blowing a couple bigger holes in the hull at the waterline is only going to take us one direction. This is not the time nor the method we should be using for health care reform.

If the democrats really want to invoke Kennedy's memory on this one, maybe they should just do a bunch of cocaine, drink to excess, have sex with anyone except their spouse, and 'sort of' be responsible for the death of someone else. That should be all that's needed for this man's memory.

Time to show these Democrats that are pushing this garbage the door. They are hell hell bent on pushing this through regardless of what we their bosses think. Our taxes will increase and our premiums will sky rocket. Time to vote all of their self-serving a$$es out!

Well, while theCrooks are trying to steal more out of everyone's paycheck, this could actually turn around and bite them in their arses. The doctors in this country don't have to let anyone into their offices or treat anyone they don't want to but if the government wants to limit their fees for treatment for everyone but themselves they are about to get what they deserve. Yep, Retainer Fees are not paid by insurance coverage- not even full coverage insurance will pay those.

Think of this way - the average MD is already sending out letters with a $3000 yearly retainer required of his present patient list. That will not be paid by your insurance company.........no way. So, the DC Crooks will sudden have to pay out of their own pockets for their specialist's retainer that are called in to consult at Walter Reed because their full coverage insurance won't pay for it and their expense accounts will have to be used for it instead of booze and lobsters. Botox Mama will have to pay for a fat retainer fee to get into her Plastic Surgeon's office and you can bet that the Specialis will be charging high retainer fees upfront just to sit in their plush waiting rooms.

Socialism is Slavery! But in this case the fat cats will have to pay too!

And after they cram this down our throats they have a VAT bill they are trying to slide through silently. Federal Sales Tax on everything!

telmom, The problem with going to debate is that now it is actually a done deal..the Republicans do not have enough votes to add any ammendments to it...sooo we can pretty much kiss America goodbye...........................Thos dems have just signed the death warrent of the USA as we have known itit is now going to be changed to......with liberty and justice for some!

Hows the change working for you America....... only thing I can hope for now, is that some of the democratic congressman do not return after the holiday!

Doctors are quitting in droves... in Pennsylvania, "specialized" medicine has ceased to exist! It is a fact that Fast Eddie Rendell, the governor there has not faced up to. He has drunk the kool-Aid and the voters will put him on the street in Pennsy .. all you have to do is ask anyone from there that WORKS for a living or wants to work.

let the debate begin. thankfully the republican effort to derail reform without a public debate in the senate crashed and burned. round one to the democrats, on the basis of motivation. democrats want to debate the issue, republicans to hide from it. clearly debating health care reform is the proper thing to do.
on mandated coverage, everyone is at risk of requiring medical treatment unless they are dead. Those who do not pay for coverage are transferring responsibility to pay for that treatment to the general public. People who won't pay for treatment are freeloading off those who do. The public (ME) has a right to require people who are able to pay their way. opponents of the mandate are supporting people who think someone else should be responsible for their medical treatment.

Quit spending money on wars and pass the Health Care bill! My family has spent 18,000.00 this year alone in medical and dental coverages, with premiums and all the co-pays we need relief! Go Dem's pass the bill.

beanne....Debate can change the bill. It can take out Louisiana's payoff. It can add items to be taxed to support the effort in areas that affect those who will use this coverage. If they pass this with harm to those on social security we will see a serious public backlash.

If anything can come of this bill that is worth while it will be consumer protections from insurance companies. Those who pay for private will be getting golden care for less of an investment.

Am I happy about what this costs me. NO, our insurance for next year has already changed based on debate before the bill.

As this bill is debated and discussed employment will continue to drop. Our economy will further slide. Companies will tighten up their purse strings. Charities will continue to suffer because if the Government is going to pay for and support all needs charity becomes unnecessary.

What will change is that need to be PC. I have no problem calling someone living off a system they do no contribute to a leach and others will find the PC world slipping away.

I understand why our so-called representatives support this massive power grab being passed under the guise of health care. They are receiving bribes as reported by MSNBC and Fox. It was also reported yesterday that much of the so-called stimulus package was used to buy support from our elected officials. I understand why they support health care... they are corrupt. Let's not make bones about it... it is the Democrats that are selling us out. It's the Democrats that are the health care pimps. Congress does not fall under it's own bill. Everyone that votes for this economy busting, freedom stealing, government dependency creating, Marxist bill, need to be voted out of office ASAP. Yes, I understand why the liberals in congress support this bill. I just can't understand why anyone else would support it.

We should have the same health benefits as do the Politicians,teachers etc..

Why not, it is we the people who pay for everything......

Actually, I live in Louisiana and I, for one, will not be helped by this fiasco. Luckily, our other senator did not vote for it (he's Republican). While he's no better than Landrieu, he at least did the right thing in this case.

This being said, I think that she'll be voted out of office when she comes up for re-election. Too bad it won't be next year. She is not doing a very good job of representing her constituency if she caves in on something that is so obviously wrong for thie people of this country.

Yes it needs debate but the transparency is only in the fact that Reid says no work on unemployment extension of benefits till the debate is over and health care passed- in other words he is blackmailing the unemployed and congress with giving him his healthcare reform no matter how bad or seeing millions lose their benefits and what little they have managed to survive with in this "recovering economy" Yep he and the Democrats are really looking out for the voters welfare -with this kind of help will be nothing but homeless to vote

An additional item - someone mentioned backlash. I think that the people of this country are getting fed up with a congress that keeps on taking from those who are doing what they need to do to support themselves to give to those who can't or won't do for themselves. One of the things I can see coming out of replacing congress is a total rework of the welfare system. We need to get those who are on welfare off of the government dole. Yes, there is a need for unemployment insurance, especially in today's job market, but AFDC, food stamps, and the like need to be totally reworked. When we have 3 and 4 generations of families on welfare, there is something wrong with the system. The only people who deserve to be on welfare are those with a genuine need - not those who are just too lazy to work and take care of their own needs. Yes, children must be cared for, but the women who have another kid just to keep from having to go to work need to have her children removed from the household until she proves that she can support them. And the father needs to be involved in the children's lives as well. It needs to go back to the standard of a 2-parent family. AFDC was meant to be a safety net, not a way of life.

Anyone care to guess the dollar value of all the time, paper, money used to "bribe" other Democrats, electric, etc etc that has been spent to create the end of of our society as we know it?

ribery and blackmail at the highest level - that is all this is. But why? We soon will be no better than the France's, Britain's,Germany's of the world when it comes to our healthcare and the economy---is this a way for them to continue to implement their new world order? It is scary to contemplate that our government is working to kill our economy and make us all serfs but that is how it appears to be going. At some point you have to say that this in not accidental, buta deliberate sabatoge of our economy.

I , as a business person, when faced with fines for not providing health insurance to employees will simply lay off our 5 employees and just run the business ourself! Then the employee will not have insurance or a job! I would imagine that thousands of businesses will do the same thing! This is insanity and will lead to a lot of people out of work and lower tax revenues and higher costs for their precious insurance program!

Demand Term Limits on Congress now!

Vote the Bums out in 2010 & 2012!

The problem with your plan is that Harry Reid will not allow real debate to happen. He want to continue to kiss up to the President at the expense of the American people and America that I knew as a kid.

THis is the first of many steps to destroying our Republic.

The vote Saturday was purely partisan and shows that the Democrats have no respect for the other side of the aisle or non-democrat aligned citizens.

Imagine a law that requires you to pay for the abortions of those irresponsible people who get knocked up, regardless of if you are pro-life or pro-choice.

Imagine a law that demands you be fined for defying an unconstitutional law. Now imagine SEIU in charge of all the Medical facilities in this country, demanding to see your loyalty card before you can enter.

Making stupid decisions like that will put you out of business quickly anyway. If you have 5 employees that can be laid off and your business will not suffer you are stupid to have them on the payroll anyway. Your post makes no sense ata all.

logdump...his post makes absolute sense. He can reduce the size and scope of his business. He can reduce his clientele to a preferred customer base, require a premium for a job he does himself and probably make more money annually which will allow him the latitude to purchase insurance for only his family. This will probably also allow him to carry a more comprehensive coverage than he could afford to offer employees.

Any of the employees he lays off can feel free to go into business for themselves and pick up the slack...if that is they are capable of operating a business.

I don't believe the proposal that was presented for debate will pass without some major revisions that will more than likely basically keep things as they currently are. The insurance companies are large enough that they will be able to buy a few of the Democrats also. That teamed with the intentional distortions will more or less kill the proposal.

DLP,

You said that you have gone from upper middle class to lower middle class since Obama took office. Please explain what you are paying now that you did not pay before. You may be the only person in the Country that is paying more taxes. To date I have not paid a penny more under Obama than I did under Bush. Be honest people, how many of you are paying any more now than you did 10 months ago?

Joe Killian,

You said that Doctors are quitting in groves....In Pennsylvania "specialized" medicine has ceased to exist. What are these Doctors and specialist doing now, drawing unemployment?

How many of you have seen this in other areas? The only ones I have seen quit are those retiring or being forced to move to larger areas because of mal-practice insurance.

Dennis,

You said that it was reported that much of the so call stimulus money was being used to buy support from our elected officials. I read that La had received medicaid money but where else was this reported?

I believe this proposal will run into some problems because of the problems it may have. We really don't need the intentional political distortions.

I'm sure the Republicans will bring up their proposal that will be totally correct. We all know they are against the current proposal because they have the people in mind and are not playing a political power game. None of them are being funded by the insurance companies are they?

Even though every one of both the Democrats and Republicans Senators are on record saying we need Health Care reform we need to leave it just as it is don't we?

there's a BIG difference between healthcare reform and the government takeover of healthcare...BIG DIFFERENCE!

Joe Mota,
(you) the public have no such rights to make demands on individuals, infinging on thier rights. That IS the basis for our constitution. You don't have any real understanding of the country you live in. You are in the crowd that want to change our basic foundations of protecting the individual from the will of the so called majority. Perhpas someday the "majority" decides a certain race of people are "bad" and they say it is in the best interest of the majority to take thier property and deport them.... or as in the case of 1930 nd 40s Europe eliminate them. You see Joe Mota, this is the slippery slope of the "greater good" over the individual and what our genius founders understood.

They are quitting in DROVES not groves... in Pennsylvania. Ask your Pal chris Matthews on MSNBC who said it Friday night on his program.... I didn't come up with that on my own... It was conceded by the Left wing on msnbc. Not by me, NBC....

Where are they going? Into administration, back to LAW school etc... they are quitting. Condescention is not your forte by the way... if you're going to do it then do it well!

Here's a great idea.

If each person that really is upset about this became informed on the real meaning of this issue and made a commitment to inform just 5 other people, and asked those 5 other people to inform 5 others, etc., etc., etc., then you could make a real difference. It could be as simple as 5 phone calls, or 5 letters (even to strangers), etc.

You could give them the information below, plus information on the phone numbers of your elected Senators and Representatives and encouragement to call them with a suggestion that THEIR next vote might affect YOUR next vote in 2010, or later.

The following might be interesting to share;

Are you concerned about the National Debt?

I took a look at Obama's 2010 Federal Budget issued by the Office of Management and Budget (OMB) for the next 10 years and I noticed some interesting things.

First – It projects rather unrealistic growth in revenues from a robust economy of about 7.5% per year, when the average growth rate for the last 20 years has been about 5.4%.

Second – It projects interest rates on the National Debt averaging about 2.4% per year, when the average interest rate over the last 30 years has been about 6.2% per year.

After adjusting for these rather unrealistic rates to the historical averages, I found some alarming results, which you are welcome to verify for yourself by reviewing the 2010 Budget, Table S – 4.

Results;

Obama projects the National Debt will increase from $10 Trillion under Bush's last Fiscal Year (2008) to over $23 Trillion. This is Obama's own projection. If you make the adjustments that I made above, (after adjusting the Fiscal Year results for 2008 and 2009 to ACTUAL), the National Debt will actually increase to almost $38 Trillion in 10 years, and the interest will devastate our economy.

While the average interest paid on the National Debt was only $28 Billion per month under Clinton, and $31 Billion per month under Bush, interest will increase to about $195 Billion per month, or about $2.3 Trillion per year in 10 years.

That increase would amount to a tax increase of about $23,000 per year, or $1,900 per month for an average family of 4 – Just to pay the INCREASE in the interest on the National Debt.

This will make our children and grandchildren slaves to debt payments to foreigners for their entire lives.

THE PROPOSED “HEALTH INSURANCE REFORMS” WILL ADD AN ADDITIONAL $2 TRILLION TO THE NATIONAL DEBT ON TOP OF THIS.

Is this the “Change we can believe in” that you expected???????

telmom,

logdump...his post makes absolute sense.

Now you've done it; interjected logic; you may have fried logdump's hard drive.

If we're all lucky, the House version will not reconcile with the Senate version and the thing will be dropped. The public option, abortion funding, illegal alien access ( its back! ) taxation strategies and overall cost, if we're REALLY lucky will cause the House to shed 3 votes and the Senate to shed 1.

The main thing that irritates me is that I'm going to be hit to pay for a bunch of other people, including illegals. That isn't reform, thats communism.

Vote for a regime change in 2012.

Read : this bill goes way beyond health reform; Sec: 4205 pg. 1229; Food czar

restaurants,fast food, vending machines, buffet's, must publish on the menu all information about every food item sold, calories, nutrition,fat content, any known warnings; the Government board on Nutrition also will require any other information they deem necessary. In plain words, every restaurant, etc, any one selling food at retail must re due their menu's. A restaurant menu will be the size of a small phone book. Health reform is needed; this bill is a wish list of every radical group that has influence in Washington.

Two points about this bill.

1. An additional 31-46 million ( or who really knows ) will now have "healthcare coverage." Since this group does NOT pay for coverage now, WHO do you think will get the bill??????????? They will be lumped together in a MEDICAID state-federal program that has the poorest record of efficiency, and pays somewhere in the vicinity of 70% of actual costs of delivering a health care service. Most of the States are nearly broke and will only be able to pay for this MEDICAID onslaught with INCREASED taxes on ALL taxpayors.

2. Hospitals, physicians, home healthcare, Hospice, nursing homes will be flooded with the LOW-PAYOR patients. Essentially, the Government invokes wage and price controls on healthcare delivery..........where even Keynes would agree creates shortages of services and and eventually raises prices, and lowers accessability to the service.

Now, if that is what you want, then Okay...........but understand this is what you really get:

1. Increased taxes- State and Federal

2. Long waits for service because ten people ahead of you receive FREE healthcare courtesy of your new taxes.

3. Loss of access because many "small businesses" ( doctors offices ) will close because their costs will not be balanced by the MEDICAID wage and price controls.

4. TIME RATIONING of services which is not amenable by any government mandates....i.e., you get sick, your doctor can see you in 3-6 months, and you hope you don't have a terminal disease that will kill you 2 months.............

5. Do not expect the Emergency Room to treat you any sooner.......ER's are NOT primary care entities, they serve FIRST those patients who have life-threatening illnesses....the rest wait until they have time to see you. Please bring food, blankets and sleeping bags, as these will not be provided at the ER doors...........

6. In summary, you will pay more for less, if you pay taxes. You will pay nothing for less if you don't pay taxes.............and that is the definition of MEDIOCRITY.............

If this bill goes through uemployment will rise significantly due to increased tax burden on individuals who are struggling and on small businesses. Foreclosure rates will continue to soar and the country will go into a depression. I predict there will be massive civil unrest and millions of people will refuse to enroll in the govt plan. What can they do when several million people refuse to go along with the plan cooked up to control people? I will refuse to enroll and I'm sure I am not the only one.

SOmeone wanted the republican bills that were propsed... from policitco .. and Marsha Blackburn. Even the Beltway-savvy readers of POLITICO are surprised when they hear references to H.R. 3400, the Republican Study Committee’s Empowering Patients First Act, which allows for the purchase of insurance across state lines. Fewer still have heard conservatives hailing H.R. 3218, Arizona Republican Rep. John Shadegg’s bill that empowers consumers by allowing them to pool together and offer competitive plans. H.R. 3713, the American Health Care Solutions Act of Rep. Mike Rogers (R-Mich.), employs free-market solutions to address the reform priorities President Barack Obama outlined in his joint address last month; it just doesn’t build a new federal bureaucracy to do it. These are only three of a series of comprehensive bills that conservative members have offered to directly address the problems in our health care system.

You want to read the bills go to Marsha's site.. she has them all up there. http://blackburn.house.gov/Issues/Issue/?IssueID=3646 The mammogram story is particulary interesting.. and the links to all the bills that have been added are there.

THEN if you want to do something a FAX your congressman or ALL of congress you can go here... they have all the phone numbers listed. I have already sent my faxes, maybe everyone else should too..

http://www.libertyaction.org/3298/targets.htm?CID=297&RID=18950291

Joe Killian,

I am both a Conservative and a Physician. Most of the medical field I am around do very much support reform. The insurance companies are hurting all of us.

I do however believe things should pass or fail on their own merit not on distortions. I without a doubt believe we need Health Care reform. Is the Obama plan what we need? I'm not sure. Perhaps that is what the debate procedure should be about

I do know that our politicians using Health Care as a political game is about the lowest thing I can remember them doing. If we had term limits on Congress we wouldn't have this power game they are playing now. Both parties are at a new low. If you don't believe all Democrats voting yes and all Republicans voting no is a game then I feel sorry for you.

Those of you distorting in the name of politics are just as low.

GOP warns of ‘unsustainable debt’

I think I remember Bush, Cheney, Wolfowitz telling us their damn endless war was going to pay for itself, cost a couple of billion $ and take about 6 months.

So, they have no problem spending on endless war rather than what our tax money should go for- US

have not all great empires ended over failed wars?

Roger.......doctor,

As a healthcare bureaucrat, this is what I am going to do with you:

1. Mandate that you see every patient who calls for an appointment.

2. Mandate you see these patients regardless of their insurance type, i.e., Medicaid,Medicare, Public option, or private.

3. Refusal to care for all patients will result in a 10 % reduction in your re-imbursement ( remember medicare participation or non-participation???)

4. Mandate that you see any patient calling for an appointment WITHIN 10 days scheduling ( get more staff, I don't care how you do it )

5. Electing to retire before age 65, or simply quitting medicine will result in an immediate penalty tax on your pension plan, to be paid in 10 business days....your Medicare and Social Security eligibility will be extended to ten years after you quit or retire.

6. Your diploma from medical school will be declared null and void, and continued use of the prefix "Dr." will be considered fraud, prosecuted to the full extent of the law, with fines of $250,000.

Now sir, hunker down, move your bedroom to your office, 'cause you are not going to have time to have dinner at home anymore...........

Roger - You are no Conservative or Physician. You are just another socialist trying to act big shot. All real doctors are against Abomination Care.

And quit the lying

Take a good look america.

Democrats have stabbed you in the back all in the name of grabbing power.

Time for a revolution.

Republicans eager to inflict a punishing defeat on President Barack Obama.

Ya think? (ref all posts, above)

What ever happened to "work hard and contribute and success will come your way"? The reason the Republicans have no coherent message is because all they can think of is defeating the Democrats.

Remarkable. Most of us ARE conservative. Come up with a consistent and logical plan and stick to it and even I would join them... but not now. Not with their mixed messages of hate and despair and oppression combined with constantly twisting the truth.

If you never like anything and complain about everything, how can a reasonable person tell what is real and what is not? Answer: They can't.

Oh, I almost forgot, Roger............doctor,

As part of the health care czar bureacracy, I will dictate your income.....Most of you doctors make too much money, as I see it.....you need to get off your high horses and start living like the rest of us----no more million dollar homes, no more BMWs and Mercedes, no more private schools for your kids, no more countryclub memberships and no more filet mignon.........your extremes of wealth are an embarrassment to the common folk, who have joined the wagon train of hope and change, and joined the team........

You can begin by making a taxable donation to the " New Health Team" managed by those bureaucrats who also manage the Post Office.............

DaneLover,

Show me that language in the bill and we can discuss.

Not in the bill L Marc T......

And that is the scary part,.........the administration of the bill.

Dane Lover; Nothing wrong with a little hostility at this point of the game; however your comments would have been well received by Lenin and Stalin.

It's hard to change the direction of a nation that's been adrift for at least eight years.

Eight years?!

NOT!!!!

Try more like, ever since judiciary wanted to legislate from the bench (early-mid 1800s) and has considered the Constitution to be a "Living Document" and not the contractual Framework Document it is!!!

The Founding Fathers gave us INSTRUCTIONS on "how-to" run this Country. Instructions, by their very nature, constitute a Framework. Always be wary of those who proclaim that the Constitution is a "Living Document" as they are only seeking justification to violate it!

I agree Telemom32!

This article starts out with the hint of how the Dems and the new media are going to proceed with publicizing this bad bill:

... over the opposition of Republicans eager to inflict a punishing defeat on President Barack Obama

They'll try the old "they're picking on Barack because he's black" line. Is it possible ... just possible ... just maybe a consideration for the news media to just once get it that many middle Americans think the policy and the bill and the cost and the motive STINK? If there is a Senator with a concscience and a concern for our next generation as an independent nation, they'll change this bill from a new entitlement to a "fix what's broke" bill.

I doubt if the word debate covers any of this, the word graft and vote buying are more appropriate, a lot o' hooey and blather by a bunch of crooks who have predetermined the outcome for how they are going to steal more of your tax money and keep their control is a better description for this fiasco.

They want to pay for abortion with your tax money, bar you from private insurance but keep their own cadillac plan for the congress, fine you for not having insurance but not give you the right to buy your own across state lines. Does this seem to be a bit of BS to anyone but me?

I have a plan, since they seem to want me to reach old age and make my life as miserable and burdened with lousy health care and heavy taxes before they decide to eradicate me as a tax liability, I have one for the congress.

Here's how it works for the congress and any others that fall under special care groups, they will live better than you and I and while they work under a term limit, public audit and moratoriums, upon leaving office they recieve no retirement but are committed to euthanasia and their families are to recieve no further government benefit. They will live well while they are in office, when their terms are completed and they are of no use, they pass on voluntarily. Now I call that a good trade off, it might be two tier still but they get theirs, just as it has been decided that you and I will be put out of our misery. Let's make running for public office and serving as not being a public servant a hazzard to their health.

All you FOX tongue waggers out there, pass it around and get a opinion poll on this.

saxon.........your comment adds about as much contribution to this thread as your migration from France to the British Isles.........NONE.

# 1.38 and 1.42 are SATIRE on inconvenient truths of this bill.

Lenin and Stalin would have assassinated me for these thoughts....is that what you were really thinking??????????????

"White House press secretary Robert Gibbs said the president was gratified by the vote, which he says "brings us one step closer to ending insurance company abuses, reining in spiraling health care costs, providing stability and security to those with health insurance, and extending quality health coverage to those who lack it.""

We are now one step closer to governmental abuse of our health services, spiraling taxes, constant worry for those who now have health insurance about when the government will take it over, and extension of quality health insurance for those who are governmental or union employees.

George,

It is very difficult to respond to your post because you have decided to label me without knowing anything about me. I would suggest you understand the extent of your knowledge is coming from George not any factual data.

As far as your statement, "All real Doctors are against Obomination care" The AMA has endorsed the plan, now you name one Medical group that has come out against it.

DaneLover,

I will ask you the same question as LMarcT, where is that language you are claiming to be in the proposal? Is that the language or your interpretation?

As far as your second post to me perhaps you should understand how the current system works. When we accept to be in an insurance network we also accept their payment schedule per procedure. We accept the rate they will pay. If you have ever received a EOB from your insurance company you will notice in the statement both the charges and the reduction based off of the insurance. If we feel our services are worth more than they are willing to pay then we will not be in their network. Some plans cover many more Specialistsand Surgeons than others. Those that have the means to private pay or the much more than average plans have access to all.

I am a Vascular Surgeon and most of my referrals come from networked Primary Care Physicians. Our Clinic is not affiliated with any Hospitals but we have privileges at several. Under the current system we can only utilize the Hospitals we have contracts of privilege. As per the insurance a patient wanting our services must do so in Hospital we have privileges.

I have no idea what you are calling "extremes of wealth" that you feel are an embarrassment to the "common folk", That would be relative to the person. Although I will be taxed more under the Democratic proposal I am not even close to the income of the average Wall Street or insurance executives bonuses much less their salary. As far as donations I do make several as well as volunteer my services at least twice a month to the local VA Hospital. I am a Veteran.

I'm sure you and George also do all that you can in your relative wealth to help those less fortunate or in need of your skills.

There was a WW2 Correspondent named Ernie Pyle who is quoted as saying, "It's not the things you don't know that makes you a fool, It's the things you know that ain't so"

Hey Roger... I am sorry, I am not sure where I read that. I had a busy day yesterday. I was off and on the computer, I was in and out of the car (I listen to talk radio in the car). I ended up with a late night watching UFC 106. I can't even remember if I read it or heard it. I just remember it aggravated me. Sorry, I wish I could be a better source, but I can't this time.

Dane Lover;whoops, I read your comment to fast, missed the satire, sorry. speed reading sometimes miss the point.

Dennis,

Not a problem, we are all in the same boat. We hear so many different and confusing comments that none of us can keep track. News anymore is like watching the weather, if you don't like what you hear on one station just switch to another it will be different. Where is Walter Cronkite when we need him the most? :)

Some of my best friends are "Vascular Surgeons.............."

All of my "vascular surgeons" lack the spontaneity of understanding sarcasm and satire, as you clearly do.

You don't have to explain how PCP Networks and HMO entities function, or miserably mal-function as a result of the last government tinkering of the health delivery system, which solved nothing and created the HMO czars who make more money than you do.

I'll go along with Ernie on one thing about fools.......vascular surgeons spend about half their operating time placing arterial grafts in elderly,obese,diabetic and smoking patients, hoping to save the remaining leg on a patient who already has an amputation of the first leg.

Thanks for volunteering your time...........................

Here's a great idea.

If each person that really is upset about this became informed on the real meaning of this issue and made a commitment to inform just 10 other people, and asked those 10 other people to inform 10 others, etc., etc., etc., then you could make a real difference. It could be as simple as 10 phone calls, or letters, E-mails, etc. (even to strangers).

You could give them the information below, plus information on the phone numbers and addresses of your elected Senators and Representatives and encouragement to contact them with a suggestion that THEIR next vote might affect YOUR next vote in 2010, or later.

It would need to be dome soon to have any effect.

The following might be interesting to share;

“I have never become that politically involved in the past, but I am VERY concerned about the direction of this great Country. I see that this Health Insurance Reform bill will add a tremendous amount to the National Debt, which, according to President Obama's own 2010 Budget projections, will increase to over $23 Trillion within 10 years(excluding the cost of this “reform”). If interest rates return to normal (or worse because of inflation), the interest alone on our National Debt will create an intolerable burden on our children and grandchildren for their entire lives.

If you vote for this bill, I will do everything I can to make sure that you are defeated in the next election, and I will encourage as many other people as possible to do the same. I will contacts ten people, who will contacts ten people each, etc. so that virtually every one of your constituents will be informed that you put “Party Loyalty” above the interests of your Country.”.

Roy Wilson,

I'm in! We need to focus on the Dems and somehow overcome the leverage of their party and SEIU (key driver to keep their pension benefits at our expense).

... need more people!

Roy,

If each person that really is upset about this became informed on the real meaning of this issue and made a commitment to inform just 10 other people....

Hey, I'm game! The problem is the part about "became informed" is pretty shaky at the moment...

1) The bill is written to save costs and to lower the deficit in 10 years. The CBO agrees. The GPO doesn't believe it... so what is told to your 10 friends and who is right?

2) The bill is written to harvest known waste from Medicare. The CBO agrees with the math but cannot vouch for the savings. But although all agree (even McCain) that savings can be had without degrading service, the GOP claims that not enough will be had and that the elderly will die... so what is told to your 10 friends and who is right?

3) The bill provides for a public option to provide more competition and the CBO has determined its use to be only 1-1/2 to 2% of the insured. The GOP claims this to be a "toe in the door" and is just setting up a "government takeover of 20% of the economy"... so what is told to your 10 friends and who is right?

And if it passes? My bet is that our good friends in the GOP will do EVERYTHING in their power until their dying breath to make sure it does not work.

And if it doesn't pass? My bet is that our good friends in the GOP will celebrate, make its power gains in the House and the Senate and we will not hear a word about health care reform for another decade.

Is there any winning scenario for the American people?

You know?... you could be wrong. Your "at any price" tactics may be too expensive... again, you could be wrong.

DaneLover,

I have read your post before and thought you were very aware how the system worked. My explanation was for a few others that may not.

You are right about most of the things about my profession. There is very little creativity and sometimes it does feel like an assembly line. You do need to add the stents to the job description however.

You are also right that I have a difficult time with those capable of sarcasm and satire. I have read and heard so many distortions that people actually believe that I have become very defensive.

If this wasn't such an important issue I would love to just laugh at the lack of knowledge people have of the Medical Field and the wonderful insurance companies.

Will please tell us how it will hurt the Senior Citizens??? It will help them... I have to pay 285.00 month for a supplemental Insurance now... That They pay 20% & I pay the rest... The Insurance Companies & Hospitals are the ones that keep the coast up with our medical charges not the Doctors... By charging high prices for their services!!! We need some one to keep them in line... Social Secirty has tried to do it by themselves.. But they can't do it without other help... Now is our chance to do it... Give the President & The Congress & Senate a chance to do it... The Republicans had 6 years to do it and we still have the same mess... They have no plan... But don't want the democrats Plan to go through... Because it would make them look bad...

Roger........it really is true that some of my best friends are vascular surgeons.

I have to share time with them on the other side of the "ether screen."

I just have this internal nausea about believing anything the government does with health care will work the way they think it will............

Insurance companies are not wonderful, nor are they evil....they sell a contract to us and try to actuarially calculate the risk that the premium will cover the cost of the global contractees' healthcare. Hundreds of millions of dollars paid to CEO executives of health insurance companies is an abomination, perpetrated by the Boards of Directors and the lame stupidity of shareholders who don't seem to care.....This does not require upending the whole concept of health insurance.

As a busy surgeon, you know as well as I do, that the uninsured ( which is a diverse group-not just the poor ) now becoming insured, will add a huge demand on the present medical system.........especially, if it now appears FREE to them. Hard to imagine the present numbers of PCPs will be able to handle all the new patients; at 70% of their costs.

It is unlikely that the government will set fees anywhere near private insurance reimbursement, and since docs and hospitals have accepted this low reimbursement in the past, the government would argue they will accept it in the future...........except for one thing, ALL of their patients did not pay at the MEDICAID rate. Strange as it may be, the services we charge for, have several different levels of reimbursement and only by balancing of percentages of each payor group can most of us afford to run an office..............

And, this is the basis of my two points in # 1.33 above.

The rest was chaff for entertainment, especially the stuff about what the government could do to docs, if, after they figure how this is going down, decide to balk at how the government thinks you need to behave.

You might remember participation/non-participation in the Medicare days of the 1980's and the TEFRA legislation. The government decided to lower re-imbursement to docs and offered the docs two pay scales. If you were a good doc and participated in the new scheme, you were reimbursed more than the "bad" doc who did not want to participate......Medicare would also send the payment directly to you for being a good participating doc, but would send the payment to the patient if you were a "bad" non-participating doc.

I lived in Florida at the time, so I know Medicare real well. When the government sent payment to the patient, most of those bright, sun-tanned golfers sent their docs $ 5.00 per month and kept the rest........some of those gentle old farts lived in million dollar condos on the beach.

But, the most disturbing parts of the Senate and House bill is the MANDATE that everyone purchase insurance. Seems simple at first read. Except, I regard health insurance as a product. I can either buy it or not, MY CHOICE.

If the government is allowed to make this concept of MANDATE law, then would anyone not believe they might also do something like this:

The government owns GM. They make and sell cars. Since the government wants GM to be successful at selling cars, they MANDATE that you have at least one GM car in your driveway. Extra taxes, fines and imprisonment if you do not comply. But I don't want a GM car. Fine, says the government. Then, you will not be able to register or insure any of your cars until you own a GM car.

The Republic has now become a democracy and I am now forced to purchase something I don't want. Is that Liberty and Freedom of Choice???

I don't have a perfect or complete solution to reforming health care, but I do know the government will reduce it to a joke; just like at the Post Office, when five tellers are available for two people waiting in line, and only two tellers are available when fifty people are waiting in line. Merry Christmas................

Wall,

No I do not work among academics nor am I in any way associated with taxpayer funded grants.

My questions to you would be why in the hell are you a Physician and what is your motivation? What is the opposite of the minority of Physicians who are Socialistic, a majority that is Capitalistic driven? Did you and I take the same oath?

The greatest Health Care system on the planet you are describing is only available to a select few. The health insurance plan I have on myself, family, and employees is limited by insurance networks.

I am not a Democrat or a Republican first I am a Surgeon. I don't care what politics or how much money a patient has, my responsibility and oath is to that individual that has been fortunate enough to reach my level of expertise. Are you trying to say that everyone does?

Are you worried more about the Government making decision than you are about an insurance company bean counter? It has to be one of those because you sure don't seem to be worried about the patient.

You asked do I think Breast Cancer Research can out vote the AIDS/HIV lobby, isn't that exactly what is happening now? Aren't all research groups fighting for limited monies? What exactly does that have to do with this proposal? Are the insurance companies going to pay for that? Most of it is very similar to drug development, a very competitive business. Do you actually believe that it is the Government advertising Viagra and Cialis or any other drug you see on Television?

You need to get out of the politics and back into your profession or get out of your profession and into politics. As for me I want every person to have equal opportunity to the same quality of Health Care. Regardless of money every life is equal in my eyes and should be in yours.

Roger....hope you read my last post......Wall is ticked off right now...I am sure he is charming in person.

When I am summoned to assist you with a ruptured aneurysm in the middle of the night, I am all what you would want in a physician. No politics, no democrat/republican, no socialist/capitalist.

15 to 30 days later, when Medicare finally decides to send you and me a check for our late night efforts to salvage a life, we will find the government values our efforts at about $ 100 an hour......I pay my plumber more than that to fix a crapper...........Medicare made no decision as to whether we treat the aneurysm or not, the government just values our services less than your local plumber.......it's going to get worse...........

I think Medicare paid for for Viagra and Cialis, from 2005 to 2007. My wife has been trying to get them to pay for her Victoria Secrets' babydolls, but nothing yet.

"Regardless of money every life is equal in my eyes and should be in yours."

This I can agree with you, Roger. I am Pro-Life. However, both House and Senate bill contains language which, although not mentioning abortion, provides for taxpayer subsidies to those entities that perform this "service........."

DaneLover,

The option I like but I in no way will support a mandate . Your GM example is good and would be something that we all should be careful with. I believe if the proposal passes at all it will look much different than it does now. Actually what I am hoping for would be some regulations on insurance. People want to believe that there are as many underwriters as there are agents but that is not the case. We will have to watch the monopoly move by these underwriters very carefully.

I liked your Florida millionaires paying $5.00 per month because we have a few of those. I have to admit that I am somewhat sheltered against that because of the referral network. Most insurances require a Primary Care Physician to refer to us. We then have insurance approval before any surgery is scheduled.

Let's see what develops out of this proposal before we over react. The insurance companies are out of control now, if nothing else we may get some concessions. They weren't going to slow down on their rate increases and exclusions without a scare like this. Happy Thanksgiving

We're having ham this year........I don't want to even think about "turkeys"

NY GasDoc trying to retire on 5-cents per day...................

Imk02.......

Didn't want to leave you totally out of this thread, but your plea reveals much about your understanding of the insurance problem.

The price of high quality medical care is expensive.....the politicians have tried to demonize medical care, calling it a failure or "broken." Never do they compare it to their offering of VA medicine, which mostly defies description....

Your belief that government can manage business is pure fantasy.....please name ONE government program that is not bankrupt or underfunded, that in any way could compete in an open and free market......The answer is none.

Why do you think the government managing your healthcare would fare better???

Social Security has nothing to do with how Medicare functions---might have the same office, but different administrations.

If you want cheap healthcare, it is available in Cuba,France, Great Britain and Canada right now. Each system is underfunded and bankrupt. Nice history on socialized medicine.....foreigners wouldn't trade it for anything, until they really get sick and need the Mayo Clinic to save them........

Be careful what you wish for.....................

Dane,

I assume that is Great Danes. I have two English Bulldogs that I believe sometimes are GasDocs, their digestive tract is at best questionable, They can run you out of a room at times.

One funny story to show you I do have at least a small sense of humor. I am a Former Marine (Viet Nam) and was stenting a retired Navy man at the Local VA free. When he woke up and I was talking to him he said GD Doc you do pretty good work. I told him thank you and that he would be fine in a day or so. He started telling me war stories and I told him I was a former Marine. He looked at me with panic in his eyes and said I'll be GD I didn't think you stupid SOBs could do anything. He then asked me if I would get him some cigarettes. I brought him a carton and gave them to him as he was leaving. He said what was that for Jarhead and I told him so that I could see him again in about a year I liked his war stories.

I did read your post and understood what you were saying. My assembly line starts again at 6am tomorrow and won't end until 3pm. I have two kids in Med School and I hope there are many in their classes because we are sure going to need them.

I have nothing to do with abortions and try to stay out of that discussion. I have a Daughter that I hope never uses that option but if she does she should pay for it out of her pocket.

Like I said before I hope this proposal works as leverage on the insurance companies. I don't believe there is a chance of it passing as it now stands. I don't believe either party expects it to. They are at a point of saving face and a deal will be coming down where they both can claim they won. I hope they consider the people and not just their ego and their jobs.

I hear you on the retirement I hope I don't have to die working.

"Senate Democrats on Sunday sparred with each other over how to fix the nation's troubled health care system."

Would be nice if the proposed bill fixed ANYTHING which of course it does not.

King Oba Mao, Queen Pelosi and Court Jester Reid think big you can tell.

Obamacare is the biggest Government power grab and real tax increase in the history of America.

The belt parkway aristocracy will dictate who, what, when, where, why and how of our health.

Is this what we want Government Command and Control from our new Kings, Queens and Czars???

I say that this "new" health care system should be scraped! Lets fix whats wrong w/ what's already in place, as well as social security.

To start this country must STOP helping all of the foreign nations (giving away money and military support) and CLOSE our borders (just a few years). Go through our population and rid ourselves of all illegal citizens.By doing so we could save enough money to pull us out of debt and once again we'd be a nation to be reckoned with.

This may sound extreme, but I think it would turn our much better than where Scum-Bama is taking us!!!

WAKE UP AMERICA!!

The democrats will wine and cry. 95 per cent certain that they will pass it in the end. I did not this in the bill. It was best i could do.

Imeant to say. I did not like this in the bill. It was the best I could do.

I disagree with you. This should not even have gone to debate. To me and more that 90% of people that already pay for private medical insurance this bill should have been DOA. I am sorry if a bill has more than 10 pages it is too large and has not been read though. So that means that no one in Congress or the Senate has actually read the bill so what the Hell are they debating. Also just to get off topic for a second I think perhaps we now know that Obama and all his czars and talk of going green is a crock of Sh!t considering how much paper is being used to draw up these massive bills. Perhaps Congress and the Senate should go green and let me continue driving gas guzzling SUVs.

oldcavscout-If the democrats really want to invoke Kennedy's memory on this one, maybe they should just do a bunch of cocaine, drink to excess, have sex with anyone except their spouse, and 'sort of' be responsible for the death of someone else. That should be all that's needed for this man's memory.

This is great stuff. The truth plain and simple.

DEBATE? WE'LL SEE. IT WILL PROBABLY BE MORE LIKE A DANCE CONTEST ON TV FOR THE DEMOCRATS!

I never thought that we would be put in the position of threatening each one of these so-called representatives with their political careers. I just hope the American public that has heard the ALARM will get moving and put the pressure on each one of these people. We are the ones that must rise to the task... and we must rise now, before it's too late!

I was speaking with an acquaintance that thinks this Health Care is the greatest thing since the invention of the wheel. She was telling me how her friends from Canada say that public health care works great. As long as she gets her piece of the pie... she's fine with it. Oh, did I mention that she had worked for the government most of her American life! Figures! She's also collecting a great severance from the USPS. Those government benefits sure help to get votes!

This whole issue is the wrong one at the wrong time. How bass-ackwards have we become that we are talking about mandatory inclusion at a time that almost 20% of the workforce is out of a job?

And how out of touch with the people are those who sit on the Ivory Thrones? They have blown almost every program that they get ahold of and now magically it's going to change.

For those of you STILL ranting about how the Republicans are only fighting this to defeat Obama, I would refer you back to Kath's post 1.35. They have offered hundreds of amendments throughout the process, and maybe a handful have been accepted.

They are not, and never were, included in this debate in any meaningful way. The Democrats claiming "their hand was out" is bull crap. Their hand was out for the Republicans to either agree with their pillaging of the American health care system in their unaffordable, ideology driven way, or NOT.

That is fascism. Do it our way, or shut up. Of course the Republicans are opposing this legislation, they're FINALLY doing what they're supposed to be doing - opposing legislation that spends too much and creates bigger government. That is, after all, the purpose of a two-party system - the parties may agree on an issue but disagree totally about how to attempt to fix it.

And for six years of the Bush administration, the Democrats did basically the same thing the Republicans are doing now. And they'll be doing it again next year after they loose their majorities due to this debacle. Holding job creation bills hostage for the sake of ramming through a bill that only about a third of the people in this country support will have that effect.

I am NOT defending the Republicans, they deserve every bit of disrespect that is now coming their way for behaving like Democrats for the past 8 years. But to say they've offered no ideas, no options, just said no? Is a LIE.

"Congressional budget analysts put the legislation's cost at $979 billion over a decade and say it would reduce deficits over the same period"

What that means is that your taxes will be raised by MORE than $979 Billion over the next 10 years, and the National Debt will increase by that amount over the next 10 years.

It also ASSUMES that they will cut out $500 Billion from Medicare (fat chance), and excludes the "Dr. Fix" for another $240 Billion. When you include these expenses, the ACTUAL increase in the National Debt will be $979 + $500 + $240 = $1.719 TRILLION, all for a plan that doesn't accomplish anything, except to let the government take over our health care system so they can run it as "inefficiently" as the Post Office or Medicare or Social Security.

Obama's own Budget projections show increasing the National Debt to over $23 Trillion in 10 years WITHOUT this increase. This will make it over $25 TRILLION, making sure that our children and grandchildren are hopelessly in debt their entire lives.

Is this the "Change we can believe in" that you voted for??????????????

LMarcT " Roy, You know?... you could be wrong. Your "at any price" tactics may be too expensive... again, you could be wrong."

I don't think so. Look at my post at #1.78.

The only way that the bill could cost $979 Billion over 10 years but not increase the Deficit at the same time is by raising taxes by more than $979 Billion, putting it into a "Health Care Trust Fund" and "borrowing" that money to "reduce the Deficit", just like they do with Social Security. It will INCREASE the National Debt by that amount (just like it does with Social Security). And the $500 Billion "savings" from Medicare is "pie in the sky", because Congress tried to cut just $6 Billion from Medicare a few years ago and had to drop that plan when seniors jumped on them.

This will be a multi-$Trillion boondogle.

"Sen. Dick Durbin of Illinois, the No. 2 Democrat in the Senate, said the health care bill must be passed by the end of the year so that President Barack Obama and lawmakers can shift their attention to the economy and improving employment rates."

Hahahahahahahaha!!!! This is the mentality we're dealing with! WTF!? Paying attention to the economy and improving employment rates (whatever that is) should be their first priority! Instead they sit around in a circle jerk cooking up ways to spend more of OUR money! Dick Durbin, retard extraordinaire.

I was surprised to learn Social Security payments and Disability payments will not increase this year. The SSDI payments are too low to support ones self, and we as consumers of either stated programs should remain alert to what Government is doing. The last thing I want is the quick fix - change - demand - pay - as what did happen under Bush with Medicare Drug Plan. Unfortunate people, unknowing, signed up and needed to spend a few thousand dollars to even be covered, gosh!!!! They didn't even have the money for the drugs in the first place. Look around you, elected officials and please remember people first, since they elected you to stand up for them, don't jump and land without water. SO Slow down, and listen. The old adage from grade school.

All this posturing, and puffing up, for what? They are only trying to make it look like they actually care, in the end, this bill will PASS, good or bad, so they can say, see we did it! Its all about, "looking good", not doing good, welcome to America!

"Republicans have already made clear they aren't supporting the [American people]."

Fixed the article for ya. Here's a fun pastime: When the GOP talking heads are on TV, count how many times they say "government takeover".

The Republican Party: Leading through fear and xenophobia for over 100 years.

Flippin' amazing. MSNBC runs an article on health care right below an article saying our national debt is not sustainable. Now there are true melon heads out there who believe that health care reform, the way it is written, will actually lower the national debt. Can anyone point to a government program that actually has lower administrative costs than the benefit it provides???

Mark Twain observed a bar fight with two men going at it with fists and knives and observed, "That's just two Democrats agreeing."

Will Rogers said, "I'm not a member of any organized party. I'm a Democrat."

The Democrats have always done this because it ia part and parcel of being an inclusive party. Contrast what is happening here with the Democrats and what is happening in the Republican party. GOP'ers who are not "true believers" are being labeled RINO's and drummed out of the party, even if they know that it will cost them an election (NY-23.)

Remember, however that:

1) Social Security was passed without a single vote by any Congressman who was a Republican at the time of the vote.

2) Medicare was passed without a single Republican vote.

3) The Civil Rights Act was passed with only a handful of Republican votes and no Southern Democrat (Dixiecrat) votes.

Social legislation does not historically have Republican support and passes anyway. Republicans now go back and lie about their secret support of social legislation, because programs like Social Security, Medicare, and Civil Rights are well-liked and generally acknowledged as necessary once the legislation has been passed.

Luckily even though this bill is coming to debate, it's still dead in the water so long as the public option is in it. No Republican support and a pledge by independent Joe Lieberman to not vote for cloture so long as the public option is in the mix means it won't pass any Republican filibuster attempts.

I'm all for health care reform, real reform that has a chance to increase actual competition in the private market rather than the faux-government "competition" that's nothing more than subsidized entitlement expansions. We do need health care reform. We need tort reform, allowing insurance companies to compete across state lines - as well as stopping the use of pre-existing conditions and rescission to discriminate against people. But this monster in the making is not the answer we need. We don't need a plan that will put us on the path towards eventual collectivist socialized medicine.

Strip the public option out of this and there are some good things left. There's still an awful lot that should be fixed and remain unaddressed in the bill, but so long as the public option dies a quick death and saves the country from that disaster waiting to happen, we might be able to salvage the system and get some good reform.

If you REALLY want to let your Senators and Representative know where you stand on the Health Care Bills, CALL THEM and tell them how THEIR next vote may affect YOUR next vote in 2010. Here's how;

For your Senator, call (202) 234-3121 and ask to speak with your Senators.

For your Representative, call (202) 235-3121 and ask to speak to your Representative.

These are the phone numbers of their Washington Offices. If you wish to write, their address is; Washington, D.C., 20510

If you pass this information on to 10 other people by letter or e-mail or phone or twitter, and encourage each of them to pass it on to 10 other people, you could make a huge difference.

Nancy,

"I was surprised to learn Social Security payments and Disability payments will not increase this year. The SSDI payments are too low to support ones self, and we as consumers of either stated programs should remain alert to what Government is doing."

Why were you surprised Nancy? There was basically no inflation this past year. Should you get a COLA increase when there was no inflation? Social Security was not meant to support someone it was meant to supplement your retirement savings. God! I'm sick of this gimme, gimme, gimme attitude.

with surgeons making up to $25,000. per day and dentists up to $l,000. per hour..not to mention the absorbent, astronomical costs of hospital and technology services, we are doomed.. we must learn how to care for Bodies at a young age..through home and school life.. Health Education is the Key, to keep the costs down..you are what you Eat; Mental or Physical, please do your body right..It's Very WRONG to make Healthy people pay for the unhealthy or people that do not care for their body properly.....

From the article:

Congressional budget analysts put the legislation's cost at $979 billion over a decade and say it would reduce deficits over the same period

I do believe that guy just admitted they plan on using the "insurance" $$ to spend on deficit costs not related to health care. No wonder they want it so bad and arent' listening to the public. It's a trillion dollars for them to spend!

Chris:

"1) Social Security was passed without a single vote by any Congressman who was a Republican at the time of the vote."

I'm assuming you're referring to 'the New Deal' that had many parts declared unconstitutional and shut down? The right doesn't like to pass laws that are unconstitutional but the democrats did it anyway. Note that it includes FHA and Fannie May in that deal. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Deal

"2) Medicare was passed without a single Republican vote." - I wouldn't be bragging about that failing version of the current one being proposed. It's so bad that they refuse to discuss fixing it and just tell us this new one is a new idea. Also, if you read up on it, it's an amendment to your first example which contained many illegal portions. Again, Democrats voted for illegal and socialism even back then.

"3) The Civil Rights Act was passed with only a handful of Republican votes and no Southern Democrat (Dixiecrat) votes." - The Democrats (Richard Russell (D-GA) and Robert Byrd (D-W.Va.)) were filibustering this act and 2 Republicans and a single Democrat made the provision to end the filibuster. Again, I wouldn't be trying to spin this to your party's favor. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_Rights_Act_of_1964

All of your examples include unconstitutional activity, Democrats trying to stop passage of the bill you're in favor of, and all but 1 include failing Socialism attempts.

sickenRestored

Quit spending money on wars and pass the Health Care bill! My family has spent 18,000.00 this year alone in medical and dental coverages, with premiums and all the co-pays we need relief! Go Dem's pass the bill

I've spent approx. $3,000 this year on medical. Last year I spent about $3500 with dental, all without insurance, if I can get a plan that costs the same, sign me up, if not, y'all go ahead and keep your HC reform.

Jeeesus...........

Your first line is pure fantasy and a prevarication, obviously created during a recovery from intoxication...............

Since your premise is false, your conclusions and recommendations are also faulty..............

Try a little harder next time.............

Yeah, he should do the math. There are few doctors making $7,500,000 a year or dentists making $2,400,000 a year!

Dr Roger and Dane Lover
Thanks for some reasonable debate, questioning etc.... First Roger, I never said reform was not needed. I actually have insurance. In one year both my kids were in the hospital and both for nearly 3 weeks. One injured serverely at a city park when a concrete bench fell over and crushed her foot, lost some toes nearly lost he foot and her life (due by the way to a negligent orthopedic surgeon who put a cast on her foot and toes to "stabilize".) the other child was suffering a neurological problem and required observation and testing) and I ended up in the hospital myself! Okay even with insurance I was out of pocket nearly 28,000 dollars! this is more than our national per capita income! So I am not happy about the way things are. But I have to say that if the government actually implements this bill, this take over, this power grab... it will NOT solve our problems and it will deepen our fiscal emergency exponentially!

I urge Americans that this is an unprecented opportunity to see what our government is all about and make a change that will in the long run help solve ALL the pressing problems. We can't keep the people we have now ... we need to clean the slate. Obama was a fraud on this issue, promise etc... kust look at his administration and be honest, non partisan and you will have to admit it!

Livingwill.........

It is unfortunate that you think you could have the last word on this thread.

There are some baseball and football players making even more money than your example.

Might I suggest the next time you have a brain tumor, that you call on ARON to fix it for you.

Until then, please check your posts with a chimpanzee for accuracy and veracity...................

What have the salaries of sports figures have to do with anything? If you mean their doctors I said FEW not NONE. As for them who cares? There are only a few thousand celebritiestotal. That means that only a few dozen doctors could take care of them all if they all went to celebrity doctors.

The people will continue to fight. The majority dont want this brand of health care overhaul, without more careful deliberation. That is who this is about, not the insurance companies.

But democrats are obedient little voles-and cant think 'out of the box' of what big Government says- and will help to throw our freedoms and $ at this, for the party. Just like the stimulus. Which they also didnt read or understand...and what a great job they did. Nice.

I think that you are wrong about the insurance companies. The insurance industry will benefit from this bill. There will be more "Medigap" policies sold , that's why AARP endorsed this bill they are the largest medi-gap policy writers in the country. It is estimated that the premiums for "the public option" will be higher than those offered by the insurance industry. If you look at the numbers you will find that Democrats also receive money from the insurance industry. Bribes? What about the 100 million going to LA to coerce Sen Landieu (sp) to vote for cloture?

Not Kidding...you must be kidding! The federal government "manages" thousands of programs, spending billions of dollars and one of the most corrupt, poorly managed of these programs is Medicare. Billions of dollars in fraudulent claims and subsequent payouts for such things as artificial limbs for long dead enrollees, wheelchairs, scooters, and bath aids for people who don't need them and don't even know they were paid for on their medicare account. The feds couldn't manage a ten cent lemonade stand and now they want US to give them nearly a trillion dollars to see what they can do with national healthcare? This has little to do with Obama. It has to do with common sense and fiscal responsibility. The system needs to be changed, everyone agrees. What we don't need is the inefficient and poorly run federal government involved in the management of the program. If this bill is so good, why is money being taken from the elderly (Medicare) to help pay for the program? Not Kidding...better do some more research!

Not Kidding - you haven't been keeping up if you think this will help people reduce their health costs. Doctors have already begun to send out notices to their patients that there will be a yearly retainer fee charged and drug companies are raising their prices the highest percentage in years to cover what Obama claims will be the largest reduction in medical cost in years. Hospital will have no choice but to raise their rates due to the 40% tax Obama is going to hit drug companies and medical equipment & supply companies. These won't be eaten by those companies and all of it will be passed onto the end user -the patient. Just because the government runs it doesn't mean you won't have to copay on bills..........Medicare/Medicaid does not come close to paying the bills for the elderly and most have to pay for supplemental policies to cover the rest plus pay what neither cover(I handled all this crap with my mother)

Meanwhile your elected official who only has your welfare at heart(yeah, right) is not going to be paying for their health insurance for the rest of their life.

Now, while you're gleefully awaiting passage of this bill, let's consider your weekly paycheck. If you have anything on your paystub listed under "cafeteria plan" it is currently tax-exempt but that will immediately change to an empty category because everything in that will be charged a min. of 10% tax each. Now look & check out what you pay into Social Security and Unemployment Benefits and double it --and while you do consider that your employer has to do the same thing. Where do I get this information? I have a CPA in the family and their national org. has already dropped the information in their laps that this is what to expect at MINIMUM. So now you have your paycheck hit upfront. Next consider that everyone who has min. wage workers on their payroll will be required to pay for their insurance......who cares?........you better because every product they sell will go up in price to cover that expense. No big deal? Well, think again because most people are struggling to pay their weekly/monthly bills already and they are going up is this passes big time! Groceries, gasoline, fast food, clothing..........you name it and it will increase. Food because the farmers pay min. wages to their workers, gasoline because the station attendents are min. wages, and fast food for the same reason.

So while you might be able to find a way to decrease your medical bills, our HMO sent out a notice this week and it contained a list of drugs that it will now only pay for if the generic can't be ordered or supplied. So good luck with that saving on healthcare idea.

And the stupid argument that the bill will cost taxpayers is silly since your tax dollars already pay for people without insurance through medicaid! Also Medicaid is the most expensive way to pay for their health care as they use emergency rooms etc and wait until they are really sick to go there. Common sense tells you the HC and Insurance industrues are behind trying to supress needed reform because they are making billions with the present situation.

Do not believe what you read on the message boards. Our tracking of this issue is not as bad as it looks where their trolls can get on and skew the opinions.

Do not believe what you read on the message boards

Excellent advice log. Out of curiosity, whom are you referring to when you refer to "Our tracking of this issue"?

The trouble with socialism is sooner or later you run out of other peoples money!! This bill will just speed up the process. None of the dim bulbs in the Democratic party in Washington seem to be able to comprehend this. It wiil never come close to saving money & will cost more jobs just like their misguided cap & tax.

insurance companies are our death panels- accountable to profit and shareholders, not ethics

same apply to the CONgress and Snaketors

And this is where the real value of the public option will show up. The insurance industry ONLY truly services large corporate clients. They are their bread and butter. They will do anything to hold on to a large corporate accounts, including pricing below cost.

At this point I would bet NOBODY really knows the real price of any medical service. Hospitals inflate EVERYTHING to play to a "list price" mentality and so they can make up their "losses" to corporate insurers... we've all seen the list price versus negotiated price, right? They charge as much as possible to whoever they can to stay afloat, with books that are nearly impossible to wade through.

Doctors, labs, service providers, nurses... virtually everyone has a list price mentality and structure. And if nobody knows REAL costs, how can one possibly determine legitimate cost saving processes? They can't... impossible.

So we enact a little public option that serves two purposes... 1) It provides a guaranteed place to insure the "tough ones", and 2) It provides direct visibility into the insurance game with the possibilityto see real costs and real processes. It presents propably the ONLY opportunity to finally get into cost savings without degrading service.

It could work.

In the debates on Saturday, Republicans brought the following to our attention:

In 2002, the AMA found that 62% of bankruptcies were related to health care costs. Of that 62%, 80% of bankruptcies involved WORKING people. That's 45% of all bankruptcies by working people smothered by health care costs.

They called Medicaid a cesspool, and stressed repeatedly that those on Medicaid do not receive equal or even adequate care - about 50% more die using Medicaid.

40% of doctors across the nation do not even accept Medicaid. More doctors are refusing to accept either Medicaid or Medicare.

So my questions are, since this information existed long before the health care reform push, since it existed when Republicans were in control of Congress, WHY has it existed in this state of being for so long? WHY didn't they do something to fix it sooner? And while what they said is true as far as it goes, how is it that the Republicans previously ignored all this but are bringing this up just now to try and disparage the health care reform project?

Current Medicaid coverage rules are as follows: Only minor children, people with minor children in the home between the ages of 19-64, and people with government-determined disabilities between the ages of 19-64 are covered. Put another way, NO ONE between 19-64 is covered under Medicaid unless either a minor child lives with them or they have a disability. Also, those with End Stage Renal Disease, a government-determined eligibility disease, can be covered specifically by Medicare before age 65.

Some states - not all - have some form of limited health coverage for those over 100% of poverty. Most states still exclude, or make it too difficult to access, people in the above age group.

Now let's go to the distribution of wealth in this country. Almost 90% of wealth is controlled by only 20% of the population. The last-ranked quintile - the lowest 20% - controls about 3.4% of wealth.

A lot of that has to do with the fact that these workers are not paid living wages, and in the case of women, are not paid equal wages for equal or equivalent work. But they are WORKING.

Then consider that the current unemployment rate - that means WORKING PEOPLE - is 10.2%. The under-/unemployment rate is, in fact, around 17.5%. Note the correlation between 17.5% of people under/unemployed and the lowest 20% who control so little wealth.

So when I see these posts about how the 'poor' are costing everybody, I have to say this: Pay people enough so they can afford to pay their own bills - then government (taxpayer) costs will go down. Much of the wealth is either passed down or accumulated through investment. No one is doing any work to get that part of the money/wealth.

At a time when 10s of millions of Americans are out of work through no fault of their own - we now know that the movers and shakers who controlled the finances and economics in this country squandered much of the 'wealth' and ability to employ people - it is immoral to talk about the poor sucking up all the resources. Those resources disappeared into thin air when the Goldmans, AIGs, and other TBTFs screwed everything up.

People without insurance, and those on Medicaid, are more likely to die without insurance coverage or access to health care. Millions more are facing the very circumstances, because unemployment doesn't provide enough and it runs out, that people with means are complaining about. A poster above stated s/he has slipped from upper middle to middle class. Let me say this: if you think THAT'S tough, wait til you get to the other 37%'s level.

The person who said he'd fire the 5 employees he has and do all the work himself, well, if all businesses do that, 1) no one's going to have any money to spend at any business, 2) you will help to increase the very public option you rail against, and 3) you'll either work yourself into exhaustion (requiring more health care) or your business will shrink. None of that sounds like a goal to strive for.

Congress hasn't done a great job with this bill. No one is happy with it, from all accounts. But if we leave the current situation in place, insurance companies are either going to (literally) suck the life out of American business or price themselves out of the market. Back to public option.

Others have raised the Constitutionality question. Well, think about this: When Medicare and Medicaid were legislated, implemented, and run by the government, the government established an intended right to medical care for citizens, and by making these programs the way they did, they made medical care a RIGHT. So good luck with that 'mandatory' argument. We have mandatory seat belts, mandatory speed limits, mandatory school attendance (education is another RIGHT), and a lot of other mandatory things. These are things deemed important and necessary for the good of all. Whether we agree with anything 'mandatory' or not, it exists. It isn't going away.

Finally, here's a question for everyone: These bills offer an OPT-OUT for individual states. WHY isn't there an OPT-OUT for INDIVIDUALS in all this? How will the 10th Amendment play into the whole 'mandatory versus opt-out' argument?

Not Kidding,

"The insurance industry will continue to fight. Twenty years ago they got 5 percent of the insurance premium as their fee. Today they get about 20 percent."

You must be kidding. Fee? I think you just post to improve your self-esteem. "Look how many responded to my post. I'm somebody!" You are truly clueless.

skeptic,

"In 2002, the AMA found that 62% of bankruptcies were related to health care costs. Of that 62%, 80% of bankruptcies involved WORKING people. That's 45% of all bankruptcies by working people smothered by health care costs."

Yeah, I read that study from Harvard. Funny thing about this study. It also mentioned that the average amount of medical debt was $13,460 for those that have insurance. Now let's take a look at the reality of it. What are the chances that these individuals had debt other than medical? Hmmmm? What came first the chicken or the egg? Did they have a ton of credit card and other unsecured debt prior to their illness? Ya think there was a chance these people didn't have a clue how to handle their finances prior to getting ill like, I don't know, a majority of Americans? This was one of the biggest BS studies I've seen in a long time.

Conservatives screamed about socialism too many times in the past to be taken seriously by any except their faithful lemmings.

Social Secuirty

Minimum Wage

Medicare

Even in 1986, the "anti-dumping" statute that prohibits hospital emergency rooms from refusing to help anyone needing emergency care. Nowadays, most accept it as a good thing. But back then, conservatives were angry that the government was forcing private hospitals (who accept federal funds) to treat everyone, regardless of insurance coverage, if they were medically unstable.

If anyone has a disagreement that does not include government takeovers or socialism (i.e. based in reality), please let's discuss it.

Clotho,

"Even in 1986, the "anti-dumping" statute that prohibits hospital emergency rooms from refusing to help anyone needing emergency care."

Tell that to Michelle Obama. Go ahead. Google Michelle Obama and patient dumping. LOL! You brought it up genius.

Sven, did YOU ever stop to ask how the average medical debt in these cases exceeded $13,000 when these people had INSURANCE?

Clotho, private hospitals have to stabilize patients, but then are allowed to transport them. Read the recent study that found that the uninsured are much more likely to die as the result of no insurance and measures NOT taken to provide care. "Downwardly Mobile: The Accidental Cost of Being Uninsured"

The Republicans were asked for input and they could have helped cut costs - such as through tort reform, but they chose to just wait til the end fighting Obama for political reasons instead of fighting for the good of the country. Their last minute alternative is just an effort to kill the reform, not a real effort to enact legislation. Actually some states have limits on lawsuits and that is still possible.

Where was the transparency. From the media, they stated that the Democrats worked this bill in a partisan manner behind closed democratic doors.

If you think there has been bipartisanship or "the taxpayers" interests seriously considered in this, you must not be paying attention. The Congress has not even read what they are voting on. Like the Stimulus. Dont you get it? We are all being used here.

And of course, the congress won't use their own big Government health care for their own family. They will be exempt. What does that tell you? If you still are marching with the other mice on this, Im wasting my time.

To NOTKIDDING:

What sort of cave were you hiding in over the past few months? MSNBC would be my choice for that answer. The democrat party did not allow the republicans any input to this bill or the house bill. NO republican amendments were allowed in either house. Get a clue! Your party is ramming this down our throats.

Car- The democrats version of working in a bipartisan manner is them saying what they want the Republicans to want, not actually what the Republicans want.

Ok Not Kidding. First let me say that it speaks volumes that you are pretty much the lone libby voice in here. And this on libby site.

Republicans do have ideas on Health Care Reform but the point is you don't ram in a bill this fast. This is major change with huge ramifications. The bill is not supposed to take affect until 2013(so as not to affect Obama's run in 2012). This thing should be in committees until 2013. Why the rush to jamb it through. Oh I know. If you give it time it will be picked apart for what it really is. Big Govt. takeover.

Nonsense;

This bill has been debated for yeears you must have been asleep since before Clinton.

"If this bill is so good, why is money being taken from the elderly (Medicare) to help pay for the program?"

Simple fact of the matter is it is not. Money for one program which will not be needed will be directed. You drank the Kool aid!

Don't worry. They are not really going to cut medicare. Not while the elderly can still vote. The cutting of medicare by 500 billion dollars is just smoke and mirrors to hide the true cost of this bill. That will come out after it is passed. Along with all the other things put in just to appease some of the sceptics and swing votes. I hope they take out the 100+ million that gave to that ginch from LA.

FYI the stimulus worked just like predicted so be quiet.

Stimulus worked how and where?

Could someone please direct me to the Republican draft bill that I keep reading about? I would like to know firsthand what their proposals are rather than the key talking points by newsvine contributors. I have read that the Republicans have not presented a bill, then others talk about the Republican version. Please send a link.

WhatNow -

it speaks volumes that you are pretty much the lone libby voice in here. And this on libby site.

Nonsense.

This is little more than a site where cons come to rant. If there are fewer libs commenting than there used to be, it's probably because they got tired of banging their heads against a brick wall here and decided to find more productive ways to use their time.

Totally understandable.

Border City -

Could someone please direct me to the Republican draft bill that I keep reading about?

I have a related question.

I'd like to know if Republicans have ever at any time, on their own, initiated any serious efforts towards healthcare reform.

The reason I would like to know that is so that I will know whether I should take seriously anything they are now proposing with regard to healthcare.

Anyone?

Thanks.

log,

FYI the stimulus worked just like predicted so be quiet.

I, for one, would find a post where everyone was completely in agreement with me nonsensical and boring. Why are you telling people to be quiet. Sounds rather childish to me. Also, please provide something substantive; ie. how did the stimulus work just like predicted? I sincerely would like to know because evidently I am missing something.

logdump, in typical liberal fashion, is telling you to be quiet because he doesn't want you to question the almighty government.

The almighty government who spent $18 million constructing a website that I could have built in my basement for a buck two-eighty. A website that credits the stimulus for creating thousands of jobs in congressional districts that .... DO NOT EXIST. That Obama says is just a "side issue".

A side issue? Mr. President, you took $787 BILLION from my children's children, to squander, saying it was IMPERATIVE or else unemployment would go above 8%!!!! Well, it's at 10.2% and rising. Okay, things are worse than you thought, fine. But, where is that money being spent? Oh, that's a side issue, never mind, go away, WE KNOW WHAT WE'RE DOING.

So, yes, do be quiet, put on your brown shirt today and get in line.

OH, and by the way, refer to kath's post 1.35 for links to the (non-existant) Republican bills that were never allowed to come up for discussion. Bi-partisan does NOT equal "do it our way, or GTFO".

It's very convenient for the liberal left to say, the Republicans offered nothing. Too bad it's a LIE.

Roger and Dane, I am a day late and a dollar short but wanted to add my 2 cents. First off Roger let me Thank-You for you service to our country. I have a son that is a marine and one that is in the Infantry...God bless them all. I am aslo an RN X 22 years and I have worked OB, Peds, Med surg, ER x 8 years, home health and now I am with Tricare family care. And I have got to say that I have not met one physician who thinks this plan is going to be good for the country or good for the Docs. They all agree we need reform but it needs to start with Tort reform and as far as I can tell all 2000 pages there is no mention of this. So far as working with the gov I can honestly say that, and Roger correct me if you think I am wrong, the right hand does not know what the left is doing. If the gov thinks they can take over health care we are in big big trouble. I am not talking about the Docs or the nurses we have alot of great providers, I am taliking about all the other stuff. The patients get the run around all the time and I truly feel sorry for them. This is not how we should treat those who have sacrificed so much.

Just yesterday I was looking at my fathers WW2 scrapbook ( yes he kept a scrapbook) I was looking at a picture of the OmneyBay ( a Carrier) after a Kamakazi attack and I recalled my fathers story of that day in Jan 1945. He was on the USS bell a destroyer. He was a gunnersmate 2nd class.They were in the Sulu sea. After the attack their were hundreds of sailors in the water and not a plane in site so he called radioed Captain Gabbert and volunteered to go on the life saving mission, he told the Captain that he was one hell of a swimmer. My father was able to help save many lives but 47 souls were lost to sea that day. Later that month the Captain called for my father to come to the ships deck. there in front of the entire crew he presented my father with a hand writte letter of commendation on rice paper,which I have in my posession, and he told my father, " Edge, your one helluv a Sailor" My Father could never tell this story without a tear in his eyes. He never expected anything in return for his service. Infact he never even picked up his medals cause he was afraid they would want him to surrender that hand written letter from Captain Gabbert. He was only 17 y/o when he joined, he went in a boy and came out a man. He was always very proud of his service to our Country. ( I am writing a book about his life cause later on he became very good friends with Rocky Marciano and traveled with him all across this country......have I got some great stories to tell) any way after he passed, ( 2 days before he was to give an interview about Rocky which was almost 25 years to the day Rocky was killed in the plane crash..ps my father had promised the Rock that he would never give an interview..Rocky use to tell him " not even if I die cause I'll come out of the grave and give ya my left hook)any way after my Dad passed my mother was presented with those medals. This, the greatest generation is now leaving us and I worry for my country. I worry for those who have sacrificed so much, that this country is heading on a disasterous course.

But no matter what happens with this bill we can all be Thankful that we were born or that we are now citizens of America.

God bless and have a wonderful and restful Thanksgiving.

logdump,

"FYI the stimulus worked just like predicted so be quiet."

Is that why I'm walking funny?

Every other developed country has affordable insurance for everyone (most of them with private doctors and hospitals, not socialized medicine). We pay over 17 percent of our GDP for health care and other countries pay less than 10 percent. We are making American labor non-competitive (more outsourcing to other countries for labor). Most people don't see the full cost - about $8,000/employee because their employers pay most of it. Federal employees pay about $4,000 per insured employee (their employer picks up the rest) and large company employees pay about 2,200/year out of the $10,200/year total cost of the big company plans, with almost 80 percent of the cost paid by the company. Without reform, more and more companies will move to contracting and other means to stop providing health insurance for their employees. The reform is essential. If it costs $1 trillion over 10 years (which is much more than estimated), that is 0.7 percent of our GDP compared to over 17 percent we are paying totally for health care - moving toward 20 percent. If we do nothing - more companies will stop contributing to health insurance and more uninsured people will go bankrupt or to the Emergency rooms with exacerbated conditions and high expenses ultimately charged to everyone else. The reform doesn't solve everything but it is a good change (except it will decrease for the huge salaries and lobbying cash treasure troves of the top executive of the large insurance companies).

Not, now even worth responding. Your math is way off.

not kiddig,

I will respond to that...

most socialized helthcare systems have one thng in common..thier hospitals are broke and closing down as they can not afford to stay open......so where are you going to go in case of an emergency? Where will you go when you are really sick.....welcome to the USSA!

Not Kidding... we're not "every other country" are we?
We can do it better but not with marxism and socialism. we can do it with cooperation of health care industry, private business and government... that is NOT what the sheisters in Wash. DC are giving us now.

Yea, ask those other countries how that is working out. Overwellming response would be not so much.

Communist? You are clueless on what Communism/socialism is. Stop infesting the discussion with left over Hannity quotes.

"We can do it better but not with marxism and socialism. we can do it with cooperation of health care industry, private business and government"

Has to be the most stupid comment I have read in any forum this year.

Fact: If this were true we would not be paying an average of 15% per year increses in health care and would not even need a bill to fix it.

Agree with Logdump.

The so-called "cooperation of health care industry, private business and government" that WhatNow refers to is exactly the system we have had in place for years. And it's the same system that has brought us to where we are now.

More of the same? We've already seen how that's worked out.

Log- Clueless about communism? I think not.

From the Communist Manifesto, commonly known as the 10 Pillars of Communism:

1. Abolition of property in land and application of all rents of land to public purposes. The government has a huge hand in the majority of mortgages in our country. Fannie and Freddie sound familiar? The government is now allowing those struggling with their mortgage to 'rent' the homes from the federal government. How about the polar bears and the horses? Is the federal government not confiscating land and disallowing any form of use from this land?

2. A heavy progressive or graduated income tax. Tax the rich! The rich are evil! Those greedy corporations! Sound familiar?

3. Abolition of all rights of inheritance. Ever hear of the death tax? Large portions of inheritance being stripped away by the government.

4. Confiscation of the property of all emigrants and rebels. The government has recently forced those with off-shore tax havens to claim those amounts or be fined/imprisoned. When the wealthy start leaving our country in a effort to escape the government and retain what they earn, how long before the government starts seizing their assets remaining here?

5. Centralization of credit in the banks of the state, by means of a national bank with state capital and an exclusive monopoly. No comment needed here. I think you can figure this one out.

6. Centralization of the means of communication and transport in the hands of the state. Hmmm. Have you heard about net neutrality or the Fairness Doctrine? Why would the government want control of the means of communication? To silence dissent. How long before the government takes over the railways and airlines because they are 'too big to fail'?

7. Extension of factories and instruments of production owned by the state; the bringing into cultivation of waste lands, and the improvement of the soil generally in accordance with a common plan. The government now owns two of the auto companies, owns nearly all banks, the federal government now runs all of the student loans, farming is controlled by the government (what to grow), and the government is controlling the pay of industries that took bailout funds. Maybe the bailouts were a power grab, not a means to 'save' the economy?

8. Equal obligation of all to work. Establishment of industrial armies, especially for agriculture. Work ten years for the federal government and your student loans will be forgiven? Obama's plan to create civilian security forces? Serve.gov? Social Security?

9. Combination of agriculture with manufacturing industries; gradual abolition of all the distinction between town and country by a more equable distribution of the populace over the country. Alternative energy reforms? Ethanol, biofuels, etc. Taking away of state's rights. Forcing states to take stimulus funds to exert control over the states. When states are powerless against the federal government, you lose the distinction of states.

10. Free education for all children in public schools. Abolition of children's factory labor in its present form. Combination of education with industrial production, etc By disallowing vouchers and school choice, the government ensures that the Department of Education has complete control over lesson plans and the obiliagtion of schools to meet the requirements of "No Child Left Behind."

I know, I know. It's crazy talk, huh? None of this is happening. The administration and congress have no members that believe any of this crazy talk from Karl Marx. Not Van Jones, not Anita Dunn, not Mark Lloyd, not Cass Sunstein, not Pelosi, not Reid...none of them.

Logdump -

"FYI the stimulus worked just like predicted so be quiet."

You have a serious mental problem

George, I gathered ur are either blind or senile...where are 3 millions jobs promised? Do you realize a lot of brother and sisters in this country is suffering? Obuma only fatten the pocket of BIG wall street...

Log head,

we are using models of socialist countries for this so called reform... stupid is as stupid does .... I agree with George that you're ill. Seek help. The Gov already has a program for people like you.

Doesn't every business want a profit? Have you ever owned a business? No profits mean no business. With profit you reinvest and build a better product. No profits? What country do you live in?

Larry Parker, you are the complete moron I never hoped to encounter! Here you are, I found you on news vine and will never forget you.

"they want profits" GD, you made me spill my coffee

Most; although not all, hospitals, clinics, and doctors have a goal of making a profit just as much (if not moreso) as the insurance companies. I want reform as much as the next guy but what's being debated in the Senate is not reform. They want to make insurance companies out to be the enemies seeking the high dollar profits but they fail to address the other large costs of medical care that insurance premiums and deductibles pale in comparison to. I bet most of the people in favor for this bill have either never took a close look at what their insurance was paying for or are just partisan talking heads who can see no wrong in what their party chooses for the American people.

Yes the Democrats are bankrupting this country to destroy the $$$$$$$$$$ and they can careless what the American people say. Only 35 % want this bill and those are the lazy, welfare people don't want to work and pull their own weight. So, the rest of those who are working and do have healthcare have to help them out its called " SPREAD THE WEALTH AROUND"

What is pitiful is Harry Reid bribing a few Democrats to vote his way like the (D)of Louisiana which is shameful, that she could stoop that low, and in her state the politicians waste their money so much. You all can see that money being flushed down the toilet quick. The Democrats can careless of the consequences and backlash of this Obamacare, just like the stimulus bill right or cash for clunkers? Even China told Obama don't do it do to the cost well, he don't care. So for any of you who support this bill you,& everyone will pay for it, in taxes even the middle class, poor or rich will suffer even the small businesses,big businesses. Jobs will be cut, high deficit, illegal's will get a piece of the pie do to lobbyist involved, premiums will go up more then what we are paying now to cover this cost, the elderly will also suffer. The Democrats are the most corrupted,biggest liars and if you all believe their nonsense then I hope you all get what you deserve. The republicans are no different but in this case at least they have more common sense to say no on this bill do to the recession, people out of work and struggling. WAKE UP PEOPLE!

I suspect MOST of the DAMocrats didn't even touch the bill

Steven K is right on!

Blame Bush! Blame Bush! Blame Bush!

Moron.

no Blame Obama !! for everything....10 months in.

genius

We don't blame Obama, the blame lies with you.

Idiot

Bush may not have been the best with the money nut you don't throw good money after bad. That is what Obama is doing. What was the deficit on Nov. 22 2008? What is it today? Enough said.

Sorry, not enough said. What will it be on Nov. 22 2019? Now enough said.

What has Bush got to do with the health care bill? Can't you people get out of your emotions for a minute?

This is Obama's treat to the American people. Health care does NOT need to be overhauled, it needs to be cost effective, distributed better, more focused on preventative care and administratively streamlined. The Government doesn't run anything within a BUDGET!

What planet are some of you living on?

They live in OBUMA hell hole

Hey Larry, I hope for your sake that it covers knee pads and bibs!

Hey cmon! He has a point, Bush handed us over to the marxists... he was not a true conservative and now we have the libs throwing it back in our face then electing a damn marxist!
Bush screwed the pooch big time.

Phillyboy...don't forget Pelosi and her band of cronies in the house!!! One of the wealthiest woman in congress, the money came from a very successful capitalistic business, and even with all her wealth she believes the taxpayers owe her a Boeing 757 so she doesn't have to stop for gas on her way home every few days to California. Screwing the American public with their own hard earned money ought to be a crime. If it were, half of these people would be in jail.

Everyone stop buying Starkist Tuna, I have.

We all need to stop buying whatever it is that lines these maroons pockets.

What about Fast Eddie Rendell? He is practically dismantling Pennsylvania single handedly... doctors are running from that state... remember how he left them haning out to dry with tort reform. Eddie has to take care of his fellow lawyers and so does Obama and biden.... more of the same

let's start a 'For Out People party' - balance of power is crucial.

Who will head this genius party, joker? You? How will you rule? Mob? We elected these people to speak for us. There are 100 voices in the US Senate. They are our voices. If you stop screaming and threatening people, maybe someone will listen. I, for one am 63 years old and would simply die if my grandchildren were faced with being dropped from insurance because of pre-existing conditions - or because BCBS says they spent the life-time cap and so now MUST DIE because they won't pay...Mortgaging our children's future, you say. Whether you know it or not, they may have no future...without healthcare reform. Did you know BCBS President took home $6,000,000 in BONUS last year and his employees PAY THEIR OWN INSURANCE...OMG! You may continue to shout out against HC reform, that is your right. But I have the right to pursue a quality life for my grandchildren. When my heirs open the history book, they will recognize that if I erred - if this administration erred - it erred trying to do RIGHT for PEOPLE...We did not sell our souls to big oil. I did not stand with the evil ones who would deny me and mine the chance to live healthy and happy lives...AND, YES I AM STILL WORKING and have worked in great jobs from Capitol Hill to IBM to Federal and State government since 1963. Am not lazy, never been lazy - so save that crap for someone who will entertain the likes of you. You soooo try my patience, but I am trying to love you as God does....I'm just not that good year.

Love my country not my government and that is why we can vote them out but we have to actually DO IT!

Another obedient and fearful mouse. How is the global warming going, my brave little one?

bytheway,

I hope Palin does get the nod. So does President Obama and every other Democrat in the House and Senate!

How is the global warming going, my brave little one?

Actually, it's a beautiful day for Nov. 22. Never seen a November so mild and sunny. If this is the effects of global warming, I'll take a whole bunch more, please!!

Border City -

Actually, it's a beautiful day for Nov. 22

It is here, too. In fact, my jasmine, which normally blooms only in early summer, is starting a second round of bloom. Never seen that before.

However, your neighbors in the West, who are witnessing the decimation of their lodgepole pine forests and spruce forests by mountain pine bark beetles and spruce bark beetles, likely feel differently about global warming than you do.

So might California's agricultural community, these days.

And people in a whole host of other places.

But enjoy your beautiful day.

Forget Palin ... we need a regular american and she is not so much. She is an eveangelical extremist... she is not a bad person but this is not an electable platform. sorry but she is not.

This is ONLY beneficial to people who relish the milk of the government teat.

You mean the dems, don't you?

Landrieu failed New Orleans during Katrina. True, the Corps of Engineers has responsibility, but a governor has the ultimate responsibility to protect the citizens etc. She should have been reviewing what the Corps was doing all along instead of assuming that everything was okay. She had no plan for a catastrophic event and now the poor people of her state will be hurt again because she has again failed to protect the state. Maybe 100 mil will go to her state but ultimately the state will have to increase its budget to make up for the lost medicare/medicaid dollars which will be cut. Hopefully, the people of this Southern State will not be fooled again. Landrieu is the biggest welfare recipient of them all (i.e., governor/senate pension when she is out of office) with Congressional healthcare which is the cadillac of cadillacs healthcare. The Congress, President and all government employees should have healthcare which is similar to what we commoners have.

Landrieu wasn't governor, Blanco was. A senator cannot call in the National Guard.

I stand corrected. As a senator, she still has a responsibility to her state. Why not look at how the Corps was doing back then. She should have requested a 100 mil back then and maybe Katrina would not have been an issue.

actually she was quite brazen about the whole thing and even said this from the Senate floor before casting her vote but she wasn't the only one who got concessions:

And so it came to pass that Landrieu walked onto the Senate floor midafternoon Saturday to announce her aye vote -- and to trumpet the financial "fix" she had arranged for Louisiana. "I am not going to be defensive," she declared. "And it's not a $100 million fix. It's a $300 million fix."

She even said she held out for more as did some other senators!! From the Wahington Post - link:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/11/21/AR2009112102272_pf.html

Ultimately, the whole Katrina incident is because the government failed these people = they were taught to rely on the government for everything instead of taking care of themselves and getting a bus ticket, catching a ride, and getting out. There were AMPLE warnings given DAYS ahead which were not heeded!! It was their own fault and those who made them dependent on the government for everything - local, state and national gov'ts...

And the people said, "Amen."

The people want Health Care Reform just not rectally you moron.

Beev, problem is too many of them are in states and districts that are locks for re-election. The only solution is term limits which they will not vote for.

Then I believe the people need to demand that the issue of term limits be put on the state ballots and be made into a constitutional amendment. Just because the congressmen don't want term limits doesn't mean they can't be force fed them. Too many people have forgotten that the people hold the power.

Just $.02 from the Porkbevr.....

We may not be able to take votes away from them but we can hit them where it hurts. Find out who funds them and boycott their products and services.

I can add a few more suggestions:

Fast track trained doctors from other countries to be US qualified. Forgive student loans for doctors who work in family practice at 10% of debt per year, rather than have them all immediately head to a specialty. Force AMA to raise the number of new doctors allowed to train each year. Make the medical system more competitive by increasing competition.

Jim, we had our say in the voting booth...now it is up to the officials we elected. and our right to try and keep them honest...in other words I have to agree with No Spin Here, despite their over the top pelomic...we (working America) are probably screwed again...

Jim D, you are 100% right. But that is exactly where this country is going. And they don't care one wit. This was suppose to be about cutting costs in healthcare. As usual, these idiots have ruined what was originially a good idea. Now, it is all about control. And God help the older people, they will pay the price. That's where the "real" savings begins. The rich will be able to pay for this new healthcare, the poor will get help, and guess what, the middle class,or what's left of it, gets stuck paying the bill! How on earth is that fair OR constitutional?

And what are your "own" thoughts on this topic?

Wow you are funny.

Not because McCain/Palin lost....because you can read a story that clearly said a deciding vote was paid for by extra funding offered to a welfare state and there is no outrage from those on the right.

And you, my brave little comical mouse, are a toadie for the plastic faced Pelosi, the hair plugged Biden, the emporer with no clothes Obama.

I don't find anything funny about your post Comedian...do you really believe this is just about not liking Obama or being a die hard right wing nut? Get off the vine..many of us are so sick of being called a right wing nut just because we dare to oppose something that has the possibility of destroying our ability of supporting our families without government help...or interference.

reread the article, we lose transparency by step four of the debate...I don't know about you but that scares the crap out of me.

You are not very funny. If you were not blindly following the liars in Washington and doing you OWN research, you would see that this is NOT sour grapes, this is outrage over blatant corruption and taxes so high that we cannot pay them. If this healthcare bill manages to pass, you will not be exempt from paying your share. You will have to make 10 people laugh before you get paid for one!! HA HA! It won't be so funny then. I am a nurse and my job will be lost if this bill passes. My doctor will not be able to afford to pay me. If you think doctors and nurses are making too much money anyway, well our salaries don't compare to what the crooks in Washington make.

Maybe you need to get your news from someplace other than MSNBC.

Listen to yourself!

Just because they said it doesn't make in wrong!
Your giving the messengers too much credit or blame depending how you look at it. The fact is that Beck, hannity and Ingrahm are wright about much of this... the heart of this... their own "repulicanistic" spin is another thing but government can't run to the store for milk... Right? We all know it!

Glenn Beck is so transparent, he is a wannabe televangelist, that does nothing but start crap. He has no idea what he is talking about, he is an embarrassment to Fox news. He is nothing but a freak side show that belongs in a circus!

Ah yes even you 'so called comodian' secretly can't stand your own party. That is why you listen to Hannity and Limbaugh and the rest. Otherwise you would not know that these are just reitterations of their work. You listen to them because you just need to hear the truth once in a while. Don't worry you are safe. If you are a good comedian you may have a job in future America. Emperor Obama will need a court jester. We shal call you Comicus the stand up philosopher( Bull$#!! artist).

WhatNow: listening to them , and being impregnated by them is two different things , the way you are talking and the way your head is beginning to swell, makes one realise that you have been impregnated by, one of them, I don't believe in abortion except when it is life threatening to the mother, but in your case and because you really don't know who the dad is I will make an exception, if you continue to listen to them in the future have responsible radio with them and avoid allowing them to trust their retorick into that precious resource that is located between your ears!!!

Comedien - wow! So you think all these people (nearly everyone posting) all listen to these few people? Maybe you give the radio people way too much credit. Maybe it is because we have a mind and can easily discern between a pile of horse crap and the truth...something you should try doing!

Maybe what we need is a comedy Czar.

Please advise a Canadian why everyone is so adverse to allowing debate on this bill? It would seem to me that an open debate, with minutes and live video feed would allow everyone a chance to see exactly what this bill is about. At this point, I don't think anyone has a clue what this bill will or wont do other than the political talking-heads opinions. I want to hear arguments from both political parties. What are the Republican alternatives? Everyone seems to agree that reform is needed. What reforms would reduce costs that the majority would favor? Most of what I read is partisan BS.

Very well put!

I agree vote them all out.

But then, who do we vote in? Aren't they all the same?

We could institute a draft for people to serve as senators and representatives. Serve the country by serving in public office just like those of us who have served our country by serving in the military.

Please don't vote out Ron Paul though! He is not a liar, and wants to see the end of the Fed and Health Care take over!

How does it feel to be a whore, Sen. Landrieu? The head pimp in charge (Reid) is the most repulsive bastard there is in congress. Actually, Pelosi is even with him. Giving Louisiana 400 mil. of our taxpayer money by tying it to a vote (as bait) for a bill that more than half of America is adamantly opposed to, is devious and corruption in congress at it's very best. F.U. Senator! By the way, seeing Senator Dodd standing beside Reid in the picture taking ceremony after the vote makes me want to throw up. This guy is a repulsive, arrogant self-serving douche bag. You know what he is all about - getting this crap bill through so he can dedicate it to Ted Kennedy's memory (who was another equal douche bag). By the way Dodd, how is the prostrate cancer going? You need to be on the new healthcare plan that you are proposing for the rest of us, which by the way Ted Kennedy made sure that you elite congress bastards was exempted from. By being on that plan, maybe you wouldn't be around as long - would you?

My thoughts exactly and any senator that doesn't speak up about this is an accomplice.

I hope that anyone that votes for this death care to get it on the floor gets voted out of office. This so called health care has not changed one bit since its creation by hitler it is geared to save money not lives. I have seen what communist countries look like two room apartments cheaply built with a tiny bathroom. This is nothing but communisum and the perfict way to destroy the wealth of this country.

Communisum assures one thing the wealthiest people leave because they can. The second teir of wealthy people who cannot leave give up. Really whats in it for them? Why should they even try? Sit and home and relax we will all be thrird world anyways. There is no incentive. The truely greedy in the USA will never get the fact you can collect more from more rich people then you can from none.

People will be so angry if this bill comes to the floor you will see even bigger protests than the millions of people at the whitehouses doorsteps. I see hands across america. This is clearly the worst administration in the history of this country and all of the signers of this bill will go down in history as the worst blight in this countries history. Your names will not be forgotten and it will be MUDD.

I know, blame Bush.

We don't blame Obama, we just blame the people that voted for him.

/P>

Thank you Speaker Pelosi for your obvious biased insight. One thing you failed to note. The Stimulus "Funds for Friends" Bill was all Obama all they time. Nice try.. but no bonus points for you.

If the issue is reform and lobbyist corruption then why does the far-left shoot down tort reform and defensive medicine. Could it be the American Trial Lawyers Association? Look at their contributions over the years.

Uh! Yeah! So Obama's solution! Send more stimulus checks! You are so stupid to think that more stimulus checks will work. You are just regurgitating what the radically left media wants you to! And it is clearly showing in your failure to use logic in your argument!

well said navynuke...!!!!!!!!!!

Nancy how long has Pelosi been speaker of the house and WHO voted to funnd the war, etc?

Oh and wait till the American people have to pay and earned income tax on the stimulus money they got.