Clinic with two doors, a symbol of two-tier care

We are all going to see two or more doors real soon...the people who can pay will continue to seek and find care. All this bs coming out about pap smears and breast exams is only the beginning.

When will libs learn you can't force but just so much on a free society until something snaps.......

We should have the same health benefits as do the Politicians, teachers, etc... Why not, it is we the people who pay for everything in the first place......

The Government is nothing but a Legalized Mafia......

This will become the norm. It is already how it works in England, France, and Canada but to a higher degree. I have experience care in all three as well as the private and public care system in England and France. The private system is like it is in the US today. Public system sucks...rationed and uncaring. Are you ready America???

I don't know what part of England and Canada you went to, but I have relatives living in BOTH of those countries who have had serious medical issues recently and are all doing fine, thank you very much. I'm talking cancer in England and a broken hip in Canada. I've been through cancer treatments here in the states (I'm a US citizen), and trust me, the care my British counterpart received was much more caring and quick than the care I received. Her case was discussed by a panel of doctors...My doctor (after 6 years) still can't remember that I'd rather be called by my informal name than my legal name.

I'm not sure why the article talks about this like it's a bad thing. If you are willing and able to pay for it, why shouldn't you get better service? If the Democrats disastrous plans to collectivize health care go through, a healthy private system that still lets you pay to get the service you need is going to be the only way to maintain the relative level of medical progress and high standards of care we are accustomed to today while the public system goes about bankrupting itself and the country. If you don't want your care rationed, and to be hit with massive waits for free care, then you're going to have to engage the only system that's left, much like public/private school systems. At least the high level of care we expect today will still be available somewhere if the Democrats succeed.

Regardless, the MOST prosperous countries have a homogeneous population.

Diversity (heterogeneity) equals ruin.

This includes a homogeneous religion and ethnicity. Both have been necessary for prosperity within the country.

But, THEY know all this. It all comes down to natural selection (survival of the fittest).

Being or getting fit MAY be the solution but THEY always have had ways to exclude. It's all about clubbing. Perhaps one day THEY will meet my club. I live for it (they call this tri-polar, penta-polar or some other political disease).

Get Real,

You are completely wrong. Countries with gov't run systems are 1 Tier. Everyone is treated completely equally. Doctors do not pay favorites b/c they are all paid by the same payer--the gov't.

You clearly only know what you hear on Faux. Don't come here telling lies.

John

I grew up in Canada and I know their health care system WORKS.

If all these countries with gov't healthcare had bad care, why aren't they turning private and why are their citizens healthier than us?

And why do we spend more than them on healthcare?

well duh, yeah, doctors are public servants... it is a part of their oath. You prefer the business model, I presume. How's that working for you? Wall Street, banks, automobile manufacturers, newspapers, small businesses... ok, Walmart is doing well by it. Is that the kind of health care we want? Greed as the supreme human motivator, eh?

If you are willing and able to pay for it, shouldn't you get better protection from the police and fire departments? Shouldn't you get better teachers and better jobs and better EVERYTHING? Shouldn't you be allowed to express your opinions more often, shouldn't you get better equal justice and better equal rights???What if the only reason you CAN pay for it is because you stole it? Or because you cheated someone out of it? Or your great grandfather stole it from someone and you just inherited it while you sit on your lazy butt drinking martinis and watching polo matches?

Oh. Health care is a product, a commodity... not a right. I get it. Let's stop pretending then. Let's just kill all the poor and sick that can't produce stuff for us, stop sending them aid and stop pretending there is a right to anything, including life. After all, what does health have to do with life?

What do we do with people who care nothing for collecting and storing up the treasures of this world and yet commit their lives to helping others... the Mother Theresas of the world... no health care? Let 'em die and decrease the surplus population... HUMBUG.

The Democrats have a habit off pushing things they know will be unpopular through in the dead of night on holiday weekends to try to sneak their socialist policies past as many people they know will be outraged as possible. The Senate bringing their "health scare" bill to the floor for debate Saturday night was just another sneaky move to push through a bill they haven't even read yet. The Sunday news pundits managed to get some Dems to admit they won't vote for the final bill if it's in the same form as the one they just moved forward. Why can't they do the heavy lifting before tying up the entire senate that should be focused on our economy with a bill that better be doomed if any one of these clowns wants to be reelected. IT'S THE ECONOMY YOU POMPOUS JERKS! putting forward a bill that will cost us all more and denigrate the quality of service is criminal. I've got no problem paying more for better service, but paying more for worse service is the path the Democrats have choosen and they need to be held accountable. First step, a grass roots movement to cancel the life time pensions and medical benefits of Congressmen and Senators that serve as little as one term. Make these bastards pay like the rest of us.

kc

Nice post. Apparently this is the new America.

Welcome to the Selfish State.

...divided we fall...

People should have to pay,

And if they can't?

Your solution is what? Let them remain untreated for illness or injuries?

Kim

Haven't you noticed? We don't help each other out in this country unless there's money involved.

Regardless, the MOST prosperous countries have a homogeneous population.

Diversity (heterogeneity) equals ruin.

This includes a homogeneous religion and ethnicity. Both have been necessary for prosperity within the country.

But, THEY know all this. It all comes down to natural selection (survival of the fittest).

Being or getting fit MAY be the solution but THEY always have had ways to exclude. It's all about clubbing. Perhaps one day THEY will meet my club. I live for it (they call this tri-polar, penta-polar or some other political disease).

So, are you mentally ill, or just an evil racist? Not that one excludes the other.

The only reason Insurance companies get their way is through government intervention. Government should stop protecting them through regulation designed to keep competition out. They should stop helping them by looking away at their collusive practices. Then, maybe, the insurance companies would have to act like real businesses in a competitive industry unprotected by government regulation and the customers would get their money's worth.

For now, government intervention into the business is letting the companies get away with murder.

If you REALLY want to let your Senators and Representative know where you stand on the Health Care Bills, CALL THEM and tell them how THEIR next vote may affect YOUR next vote in 2010. Here's how;

For your Senator, call (202) 234-3121 and ask to speak with your Senators.

For your Representative, call (202) 235-3121 and ask to speak to your Representative.

These are the phone numbers of their Washington Offices. If you wish to write, their address is; Washington, D.C., 20510

If you pass this information on to 10 other people by letter or e-mail or phone or twitter, and encourage each of them to pass it on to 10 other people, you could make a huge difference.

don't like it? Get a different doctor. The dems have their way, you will have no choice in the matter. The rich will go to another country just like they do now in the socialized med countries. They come here!!!! You will see doctors and clinics move elsewhere.

KC dad is an idiot. No where in the Hippocratic oath do they declare to be public servants. Try reading it!!!!!!!!!!!

Firemen, police, teachers etc. get paid by the gov't. Doctors are in PRIVATE PRACTICE! You are just another socialist who wants everything for nothing. What you are going to get is nothing and it will cost you everything. your freedom and that of your children and grandchildren. If you want to live in a socialist country, MOVE TO FRANCE!!!

Michael,

Where did you get that info?

Name one country with a homogeneous population and gov't healthcare...there are only small ones, such as Ireland...UK, Canada, France all have seen immigration in recent decades make their populous quite mixed. That's the way it is. If you don't like it, buy an island...

Two doors pretty much signifies what this new healthcare bill is..........The one on the Right will be free premium healthcare for the politicians and the one on the left will be pay your $3000 retainer before you enter or go away. The poliiticians will make sure that people have insurance cards but who's going to treat them? ER's will double their prices due to that fat 40% tax on drug companies and medical equipment and to pay for Cap & Trade Emissions causing electricity and food cost to rise. They are not tell the taxpayers about all the prices increase this healthcare will cause and it's going to cause a lot of people to fall over the line into the poverty level from the middle class.

You know I hear a lot of people yelling the doctors are greedy but they have to pay their school loans and horribly high liability insurance. A lot of doctors still treat patients they know are hurting financially for reduced rates but many people don't realize that at one time doctors receiving box after box of free samples and the drug companies don't do that anymore. Those samples were given to people who could not pay for medicines. As a child I used to go with a relative who was a doctor to pick up their mail.......it would be crammed full of samples and free stuff but as the years passed by those started to disappear until they became rare.

And someone is surprised?

Question - how does the current insurance bill change any of this.

Answer - it doesn't - it just makes it a certainty that it will happen all over America.

The bottom line is that we have a constituion in place, no where on there does it say you have right to health care. If you dont like what we have and admire another countries health care. Feel free to move!

medical/ health care is not affordable for most Americans..insurance is Greed, medical is Greed..there is no Salvation there, unless you have lots of money..Americans must be taught at a young age through Home and School Life to learn about taking care of their Bodies...an ounce of basic preventive maintenance is worth a pound of cure..while physicians will always be needed..our interest and searching for answers are there..it has helped me, I lived a very healthy, long life with minimum physician care..the Key to Good Health is Education of Health..with Schools and personal interest, costs can be kept at a minimum...

The health insurance plan being created by Congress will overfill those already full waiting rooms. Anyone who has been to an emergency room knows that there are people waiting with everything ranging from major emergencies to those who with colds shouldn't be there in the first place.

It will be kind of like buying a ticket to Disneyland. You are guaranteed the chance to ride the rides but you might have to wait in line for several hours.

Tell your reps that if they really want to fix healthcare, they will focus on getting enough providers and medicines in place to drive the costs down. Insurance doesn't do much good if you die while you're waiting in line.

In this article we find the crux of health care reform in congress. The liberals are trying to force feed a system that takes individuality out of the system and forces all to be treated the same. If the quality of care is the same for both sides ( as the radiologist seemed to think), then the only difference here is service and piece of mind. The choice should be left to the patient as to which they prefer, just like flying on a major airline. You have the choice of first/business class or coach, each providing you with different levels of comfort and service on the same flight. If a person should choose to go to a provider that offers a higher level of service and is willing to pay for it, then there should be no interference from government or anyone else. The choice is theirs and theirs alone.

“What is happening with concierge medicine,” Caplan said, “based on what you discovered, is that we're biting into the quality of care if you're not paying a premium. That's unethical. It's immoral. It's just flat-out wrong.”

It's also reality. Doctors are like anybody else. If they get paid more for a service, they will give it more attention.

I see there was no mention that the plans the government wants us to fit into will all be the "managed care" type, where you wait a long time for an appointment and to get the results. Welcome to the "public option".

This is the biggest complaint of those in other countries that have only "universal coverage".

The typical insurance reimbursement rate is about 2/3 or 3/4 of the "Normal Rate", so it's all about maximizing volume to make up the difference.

Based on the way the government runs everything else, when they take over healthcare, the services will be horrific!

To those liberals that think that the government is the end all, beat all to all social problems you really live in a dream world.

When the government takes over all your healthcare needs, you will be truly needy. I don't know where you get the idea that socialized medicine is so good, probably from the government run news agencies - CNN, ABC, NBC and CBS. They tout the wonderful care other socialized countries get, but when you actually take a hard look at what those countries provide to the people, you will find that it is inadequate to the needs of the American people. We live in a McDonalds type country where we expect things to happen real fast. When the government takes control of healthcare, we will be going into the stone age.

Long gone will be the days of research, development and new innovations. The government just can't afford such luxuries. Private enterprise is the driving force behind what is new and great, and the government just isn't interested in developing new things. This is what has made American the leader and now the government wants to take it all away.

So liberals, I really hope this government healthcare falls apart. I don't care what you believe because it's WRONG! It's wrong for this country, our people and for our society! As you sit there receiving all the benefits innovation has created, stuff those innovations down your throats because if you get your wish of government controlled healthcare, they will all dissapear!

Carol, I agree with you. If you want a BMW 7 series, pay for it. If you can only afford the 3, that's what you get. These are people that want more than they can afford. ...By the way, I'd love a 7 Series, but it probably won't happen.

SteveYo "Get Real, You clearly only know what you hear on Faux. Don't come here telling lies."

So are you saying that the New York Times is in bed with "Faux" to spread lies????

Good luck with that argument.

Don't worry. When all is said and done and congress gets finished with their health care takeover, we will all get the equally crappy, government medical service run just like the Post Office. mmmm....mmmmm....mmmm!!!

The USA spends more money on health care, per person, than any nation on Earth.

We spend 90% more than Canada per capita, and we only have 9% more doctors per capita.

Based on evidence, our system is clearly inferior to universal public systems, when you look at the costs involved.

So, if you're a Faux News fan, go on believing our system is better. American businesses would be happy to keep moving to Canada and Europe where they can pay $10k in taxes to the public system, instead of $15k in private insurance premiums per employee.

Health care is a drag on the USA economy. We spend far more that any other country in the world, and we still ration care based on your insurance and financial status.

We spend 25% more on health care than France, but they have 50% more doctors per capita. How does this happen if our system is "better"? Go ahead, bring on the Hannity talking points...

Let's fix the system. Let's go single-payer.

Or let the Repugnicans block reform and keep a status quo that works really well for the top fifth of income earners. whatev.

Based on evidence, our system is clearly inferior to universal public systems, when you look at the costs involved.

Really Carl W?! What evidence is that?! The only empirical evidence I see is a flood of Canadians coming to America for their health care and Britains cramming charter flights to India for theirs. Then again, after congress gets finished destroying our health care, we will be flying to the Carribean to get ours. I guess that will make our health care just like the rest of the single-payer, government run systems.

Keep drinking the Kool-Aid Carl W. Obama has it by the gallons for people just like you.

The government doesn't do ANYTHING right. They have a terrible history of corruption, waste and overspending. Government run healthcare will be no different. Will you be satisfied when our government goes bankrupt?

Right on kcdad! Medical care should not be a for-profit industry.

Time is money. Even when your paying a J.A.? Too many doctors and nurses are literally J.A.'s. If money, or time was important, people like Carol Ann-2461951 would not be in such a hurry to pay them extra. Good capitalists do not pay for crap.

"We should have the same health benefits as do the Politicians, teachers, etc... Why not, it is we the people who pay for everything in the first place..." 'Oh my God, but that's socialism!!!'

This article really doesn't provide much in the way of useful information, since there are very few numbers.

The only numbers quoted are the doctor's assertion that it costs $100 to do a mammogram, but they only get paid $50, which is obvious BS, they wouldn't be in business if that was the case.

If you multiply even the $29 dollar figure, the lowest payment mentioned, by the 500 customers a day that she says they see, you get $14,500. Judging by the floor plan included in the article, I'd say they have about 10 people working there. That's $1,450 per employee per day, at the lowest rate. If you average that and the $50 payment, you come up with just under $2,000 per employee per day.

That seems like a pretty healthy cash flow to me, but isn't enough for the good doctor. This is the root of the problem, the medical industry and insurers just expect too damned much money.

A fact is: The business model for medicine='blood money'.

With the attitude that you should only get better treatment cause you payed more, You better not have a serious accident or condition happen to you before you you can afford to pay more for your coverage or you may not have the chance to ever earn enough to get you out of dept.

Unless you are born into wealth your first car is usually a cheaper used model, it is not until your financially set that you can afford that caddie , or Lincoln.

We should all have just a little more concern for the net generation.

When are they going to construct the FEMA camps/prisons for those of us whom refuse to partake in the expanded welfare program? It's going to be an unparalleled police state of unprecedented proportion. Good, hard working Americans will be imprisoned for refusing this govt handout. This is the America we now live in. And yet we stand idly by and let this happen.

There is no flood of Canadians coming here for health care. It would be nice if the right told the truth, but who am I kidding, we can only expect to get what we've gotten in the past.

This practice of two tier health care rationing is exactly what the right is saying will happen with reform. No, it's here now and always has been. Once this gets through (hopefully in a meaningful form, although I'm not so confident) and we see how much better and cheaper it is the right will find something else to distort. It's funny how they were all agains medicare (a single payer system) in the past and now talk about not letting the "dems" tamper with medicare. Incredible!!

Americans can't see the writing on the wall. This government doesn't care about you or me. Over the years, it has been one thing or another. With the bail out crap, americans didn't want that, but YOUR congress people knew what was best. Now, they know what is best again when most americans don't want this. What will be next? How many children you can have? If your baby is born with a deformed nose, will they decide, like old nazi germany that the baby is fit to live. Come on, call and write these creeps in berlin washington that if they vote for this, they are out. This country is nothing but....and it is up to the american people to take this place and fix it, not those people in washington. They are wrong, they don't care, it is all about what goes in their pockets. Washington lets you think you have a word and rights, but you are wrong. When so many countries tell that president and congress how bad national health care is, why won't they listen? Believe me, little babies with illnesses will die, old people with illnesses with die, because there will be the guide lines who lives and who doesn't. This is turning into Big Brother country.

I have posted all over the internet for years what was coming and you people can't see pass your nose. I'm a dem, so I vote dem and so on. You should have gone to the government web site and read what the candidates have voted for in the past and see what they have done for americans instead of themselves. Good old Nancy, god's little joke, what has she done? She cut off water farms so a minnow could live. The list goes on and on. Wait up and get rid of Big Brother!!!

When are they going to construct the FEMA camps/prisons for those of us whom refuse to partake in the expanded welfare program? It's going to be an unparalleled police state of unprecedented proportion. Good, hard working Americans will be imprisoned for refusing this govt handout.

Insanity.

Funny how G.E. has a huge advertisement on this report my CSNBC? Media outlets who are still under control of the Big Bucks are launching the "The Big Push" part of getting this bill through the Senate. This is evidenced by watching those who have received loads of cash from the stimulus debacle and its "Gray Areas" and "Slush Funds" that are beginning to be found, but still have managed to be kept at the lowest amount of exposure possible. It will all come out soon... and one or two guys will become the "Sacrificial Lambs" for getting this huge mistake happen. They will in essence have "Taken one for their team" whomever they may be.

Those who have received these funds either by honest or underhanded politics... Are now without hesitation or complaint expected to use the money and use it for one thing and one thing only. "What is that?" You ask. they are to back and agree with all of Obama's Agenda and do it without question or thought of what the majority of Americans want. It is true American want to make Health Care better, it is true we need changes. But, turning over this much power to the federal Government, a institution that by definition is plagued and riddled with corruption and mismanagement... Is foolish and fool hearty.

... Even our National Banker, the Chinese, have looked at this bill and with their heads shaking in stunned disbelief merely pointed out... "Its a bit pricey, where will all the money come from?" Good question don't you guys think.

... We are plowing into the unknown when we should be making corrections to what we already understand...There's no evidence that Government sponsored or provided care will be better than the current system. Other countries have been guinea pigs, and there's no evidence there, either. There are ways to regulate and control costs. Putting a cap on malpractice would be a great start. Shifting research into the private sector would be smart, too.

... The figure quoted most is that 46 million people in America are uninsured. I'm fairly certain that number easily could be reduced by jobs being restored, individuals knowing about and signing up for current programs through their employers and the government and twenty-somethings realizing they really do need insurance. There's the whole thing about illegal immigrants, too, but I digress. Oh, wait - and the price tag is so large. One trillion dollars over the next decade alone.

...The President's general plan is to get as many of those 46 million covered, by expanding eligibility for government insurance for the poor or elderly, by forcing employers to offer health insurance or pay a tax to fund public insurance for workers, and by requiring healthy middle class individuals to purchase insurance if they don't fall into the first two categories. And he is going make the whole thing affordable by making care more efficient. How those efficiencies supposedly work is a topic for another day. As to is where the Jobs and employers are supposed to come from.

In essence... its the old "cart before the horse" Liberal Politics.... always prepared to spend... because OUR money is of no OBJECT TO THEM....

Tell me another Country that people leave America by the Thousands and go to for their health care?... Now... ask your self... Where do most who can afford the trip go to???

Clean up the current system, deal with the stupid law suits, allow small businesses to group together and buy at the same rates as large companies... And One thing above all else...

The best way to get people better health care and happier lives is to stick to your promises of rebuilding the infrastructure of America... we now know that was bull@!$%# and what you were most interested in is the same ole radical Liberal Agenda of Huge Government, out of control spending and entitlement programs that border Marxism and fall well into Socialism.

What is the worst part to me... Obama will have been out of office for some time when all this starts taking effect. He will not have to answer for ints inevitable failure... and he will will unlikely have to pay for most of its cost... his daughters, however... will not be so lucky.

Get smart America.... show me one... just one Liberally ran State that in half the shape of Texas, or other Conservative States. You may say all the quips you wish... but you cannot change the truth with your "Change you cannot believe in"....

Carol Ann- You must be truly ignorant! How can you expect people to pay up front for a medical emergency and later get reimbursed? What do you think insurance is for? To have the ability to carry a decorative card? Lets see... you are involved in a serious motor vehicle crash and require emergency treatment at your local ER, gee- you don't have the 10 grand in you pocket to pay up front. So in your fantasy world this would mean you are kicked to the curb! Medicine should not be for profit period! I fully support the health care bill in its entirety and I have insurance.

Getreal has alot of experience on Canada and England, he read Sarah's book about the evil of socialism. Or as the Europeans call it, taking care of all of their people, not their corporations.

One thing I noticed from the story was that insurance companies continue to raise their rates while continuing to lower what they pay to the doctors as they also continue to complain about the rising costs of health care.

Somebody is lying somewhere.

Oh, if somebody in your area is being paid by the government such as a police officer or a fireman or a teacher, or if a road is built with funds provided from anywhere outside your immediate area, then that is socialism. Don't like it? Fire everyone getting paid that way and build your own roads. At least the American people are getting something out of it, unlike the fascism of the previous misadnistration.

RE SteveYo's reply to GetReal,

I have to agree with Get Real. I grew up in Europe before I came to the States and my dentist had his "private" patients entrance. I was 8 years old and had braces which need to be adjusted every week - I had to wait a minimum of 2 hours each week until I got to see the dentist for 10 seconds. He looked at the front teeth and adjusted the braces. Never looked inside my mouth for 2 years. Result - cavities which were not attended to. His private patients rang the same door bell but never entered the waiting room. They were taken by his assistant straight to the back where he had a nice sitting area with coffee and anything they needed set up - even their own bathrooms. I found this out from his daughter who was in the same school/class as I was. He spent a lot of time with them. And this was 1972. So the 2 door system is nothing new to me.

Kay

maybe you had a lousy dentist.

What about this?

I am reading way too much about how a socialistic health care will fail because it does not work. It works in Europe and Canada but for some reason can't work here. You say our government can't even run a business without running it into the ground, so they will f'up healthcare too.

Maybe instead of redoing healthcare maybe we as the people should concentrate our efforts on redoing the Government.

Find a government body that can do it right and then hold them accountable for their achievement and their failures.

Until then, nothing will ever change no matter who you elect into office. There should be a balance between socialism and capitalism to keep each other in check.

One thing I am getting out of this , is that there are people, mostly liberals, that think if the plan goes through that health care will be free. IT will not. Those that are not buying insurance now will be FORCED to do so. Care will be worse , that is only common sense. If there is no private insurance, which is the govts. plan then not only will care get rationed even more than it is now, but there will be fewer doctors. I grew up with national health care and it is crap. NO more private or semi private rooms, no more over night stays. IT will run like an assembly line except it will be very slow. I can remember waiting in a waiting room for up to 8 hours to see a doctor and half the time it was someone not in the field I needed. Taxes will be raised and when the govt. puts the private insurance companies out of business unemployment will sky rocket. I also wonder about how the left is going to explain when every one's payroll taxes go up. And one last thing. Now it is 46 million uninsured, last week it was 30million, and if you take off illegals and those that choose not to buy insurance I think it goes down to 10 million. For that little amount the govt. could just as easily bought them some insurance. It would have been a whole lot cheaper.

Wow, there'll be someone else to blame besides Bush???? What shall the Bush-haters do???

Where's the line - both systems are on the brink of failure due to lack of money. You don't hear about that in the main stream media because they are backing Obama. Truth has become a distant memory in the media. If you do you own research, you will find what I am saying to be correct.

We are about to launch into another government failed program. We cannot afford to pay for insurance to all those lazy people that expect the government to provide them everything.

Eglide - Your comment is really rediculous about the police and other government agencies equalizing socialism. I think your mind is blurred on what conservatives think. All the protection we pay for in taxes is required and mandated by the constitution. Maybe you should read up on the document to become better informed. Although I do have to admit, paying into the social security system for as long as I have, without any benefit is definitely a redistrubution of my wealth. That is truly a socialist program. Just as government controlled healthcare will be.

Guess which door the politicians will enter?

Brian.

I am talking about a redo of the government not healthcare. And even though we can't afford to pay for those "lazy" people healthcare, we can still manage welfare for those "lazy" people who lost their job and Insurance.

My wife has a job that does not provide health insurance. Is she in that same boat of those so called "lazy" people? What about her rights? (You will probably say she can find a job that provides health insurance, right?) This goes back to small business that can't afford health insurance for their employees. So should these small business go under because people want jobs that supply health insurance?

Where's the line???

jimsoutlook...says........

Right on kcdad! Medical care should not be a for-profit industry.

_______________________________________________________________

Just a quick question.... Jim. Why would anyone sit through 8 years of Med school and 3 to 6 years of residency plus training courses and up to date yearly education classesclases.... If there is nothing in it for them.

In the words of Keyshawn Johnson on NFL Prime time.....

>>>>>>Come'on Man!!!

What the hell are you thinking?

****Should Teachers teach for free?... it perhaps the most important job there is....

****Should lawyers work cases for free ? without them innocent people could go to jail...

**** Should Policeman work for free? without them... anarchy....

**** Should religious ministers do their jobs for free? ... They may have families if not Catholic, and even if they are Catholic, having money to live is necessary...

**** Should Nursing home workers work for free? They are also in the medical field... but they have to pay rent and car payments...

Huh... why should Health care be.....FREE?... most people don't have any trouble blowing $50 to $100 bucks at the bar on a FridaynIGHT . Or $100 on a Nice dinner or two and movies with a girl friend. Its no problem spending hundreds on stupid ass video games but "God Forbid" you have to take responsibility for YOUR OWN LIFE. I see idiots walking around loaded with Jewelry... Having two car payments, a rent payment, five to seven credit card payments, Auto insurance payments, 1000 channel Football package having cable systems they pay $130 to $150 a months for, High Speed Internet, service... Two Cell Phones with every single application that money can buy on them, Hand held video games, 26 Inch Rims on their car that is supposed to have 14 inch wheels. Stereo systems in those cars that rattle the gates ofHades and on and on and on.....

BUT... Tell that guy or Girl to go and spend $100 or $175 bucks a month on some quality health insurance and they lose their frigging minds... They start in with the I'm getting ripped off ( but not by the cell phone company who charges $130 for their Maximo phone program) They belch out how its too expensive to get a check up... (But never too expensive to pay two car payments instead of one newer car and a cheaper used one that's paid for)... Nope the "Cash for Clunkers" solved all those paid for car problems...didn't they?... Smart move Bam Bam.....

I could go on for an hour with comparisons..... Bottom line is this...

"People either will... or will not... except personal responsibility for their own lives, their families and what it costs each to live... Some, would rather just piss away that responsibility while expecting the Government or some other group to pick up their sorry asses slack. These people still live like Mommy and Daddy are taking care of everything and their only worry is to have fun and enjoy life.... While the rest of us take responsibility and act and spend like adults who have responsible minds and habits. Unfortunately it is those of us who have learned these life lessons that have to pick up the tab for those who cannot or will not manage their own lives. Then... they even have theun-flinching gall to get mouthy and pissed off when some of us stand up and say..."ENOUGH ALREADY WITH THE HANDOUT LIVING"... That is what the argument is all about when talking about Liberals and Conservatives. Who is... and who is not going to except responsibility for theirs and their Kids lives... And who gets to pay for those who are unwilling to stop pumping out kids and stop buying everything in sight... This conversation and this National Suicide agendaObama is calling a "Health Care Overhaul" would not even be necessary if we never allowed people to stop taking personal responsibility to begin with. Slowing the tide of this movement until we break the chains of Governmental handouts that enslave those who take them.... NOTHING WILL EVER GET ANY BETTER... But it seems we are more interested in getting farther and farther away from living in responsibility... and closer to just sitting back and letting Uncle Sam run it all while we run around like stupid kids wondering when the next party starts...

Everything else is semantics.... it all about personal responsibility and the persons decision to have it or expect it for free from some where they don't have to worry about....

Wow, Derek, I was going to post a comment, but no need to - you said it all. Great post!

And those without insurance? I know many people who work and simply cannot afford the premiums, it's either get insurance or buy food for the month.

And what about those with insurance that do not cover preventitive testing?

Your attitude is rather disgusting, I am guessing you are a Republican. Health Care is not a privelage only for the rich or well employeed, it's a right for everyone.

Every other civilized nation believes this.... But not in the gold ole U. S. of screw you if your poor A. We have the highest prescription costs in the WORLD... it cost more here for basic medicines then in Cuba, France, Canada, Denmark, Sweden, Norway, England and the list goes on and on.

My prescriptions cost $20 in Cananda, here? Over $200 a month. As Penn & Teller would say.... that's BULL@!$%#!

Great post Derek

The article stated:

“What is happening with concierge medicine,” Caplan said, “based on what you discovered, is that we're biting into the quality of care if you're not paying a premium. That's unethical. It's immoral. It's just flat-out wrong.”

I disagree. The whole system should be concierge-based with indiviiduals going into yearly contracts directly with their health care provider. Eliminate the insurance company on health maintenance altogether. Only have catastophic health insurance which is cheap. Then pay as you go to maintain health. If you have healthy habits you save money. If you live an unhealthy lifestyle you pay. Easy as that.

We don't buy car insurance for tires and oil changes do we? We don't buy home insurance on a mortgage for plumbing repairs or painting. Doctor visits should be on a cash basis.

Where do you get $175/month? My last bill, if I would have kept the health care and not changed in my new job would have been about $1000/month.

Actually, while I appreciate the vitriol because Derek makes it fun, it is a bad post.

I'd make the arguement a bit different. Teachers, lawyers, policeman, religious ministers all get paid but none by the public. So to the public, they ARE free. Except obviously they aren't because we all pay taxes. That's why they get paychecks deposited to their bank accounts.

So its all about how do people want to pay for healthcare. Through taxes or through personal checks. The reason the radicals on either side of this arguement need to get their head out of their asses:

1. If you believe in 100% privatized healthcare, you'll live in a nation where those who can afford to pay are completely outnumbered by those who can't....meaning the only way you are going to get that with healthcare is to live in a tyranical (i.e. non-represantation democratic) state. You have a better chance of taking your money and moving to Russia than getting your way here.

2. If you believe in 100% public healthcare, you can't do math. It's like believing everyone will have social security benefits 20 years from now no matter how many people retire and no matter how long they'll live. Privatization of part of the system is necessary to keep the costs of elective care separate from necessary care. And we're not talking cosmetic surgery. The bottom line is the bestest experimental drugs for the hardest to cure diseases are expensive and will never be covered by insurance. Which means they also won't be covered by government care. So get over it.

Somewhere, thinking people are trying to come up with a solution and right now, thankfully, those thinking people have all the power because of the knucklehead radicals. Brick-for-brains Republicans will say no to reform even if it is better, because they would rather ostracize the thinkers in their party and feel good about screaming their heads off to get nothing done. Brick-for-brains Democrats would rather insist on an unworkable public option and ostracize those in their own party who happen to want to balance budgets AND come up with a solution. These brickhead Democrats think that somehow the election meant they can do whatever they want, even though they blamed the Republicans for that kind of thinking only about 3 years ago.

Dereck

What the hell are you thinking?

****Should Teachers teach for free?... it perhaps the most important job there is....

****Should lawyers work cases for free ? without them innocent people could go to jail...

**** Should Policeman work for free? without them... anarchy....

**** Should religious ministers do their jobs for free? ... They may have families if not Catholic, and even if they are Catholic, having money to live is necessary...

**** Should Nursing home workers work for free? They are also in the medical field... but they have to pay rent and car payments...

For free? No, of course not. We should all have our needs met. In fact, I suggested that those people you listed would have tax exempt status, free parking and discounted prices on everything just like senior citizen discounts. They should get to go to the front of all lines (grocery store, theaters, whatever) and they should be bowed to by all the lesser peoples who work simply to get rich, eat at McDonalds and buy x boxes.(I mean really, when does serving humanity become serving and not profiting?)

All of the above except of course ministers. They are totally unnecessary. If you serve God, your reward is in heaven. Didn't even Paul have an outside job? Jesus a carpenter? (Pay someone to preach the word of God... hmmm... I think you get what you pay for... a money devouring bureaucracy)

you must have alot of money right? your pathetic lady

I believe a critical bit of information is missing in everyone's argument, and that is the fact that INSURANCE INDUSTRY IS INCREASING OUR PREMIUM WHILE REDUCING PAYMENT TO DOCTORS.

Now, the insurance industry (or the media) pitts the patients against the doctors? We keep this up, and we will loose the war on HEALTH CARE REFORM. The reform is about getting more for your buck, while improving productivity per American Capita.

Stay focus, we are trying to trim an industry that is getting fat by squeezing the patients and the suppliers (doctors) using questionable tactics. What we see is a byprduct of the severe polarization.

First off not all Insurance is for profit -Blue Cross in Michigan is a not-for-profit insurance plan. Must take everyone who applies. Still expensive.

If a "profit" is bad for a service we should have a right to - then where do we stop. How about food - how dare anyone make a profit off of such a basic human "right" as food. How about shelter - how dare anyone make a profit off of such a basic right as a place to live. How about heat ........ ... The list goes on. Where does the government stop? If you use the current them for government health insurance then you do not stop - you have socialism.

If the government does it's thing - REGULATE - then we can see a better system. But because government can't properly REGULATE they blame industries. They can't REGULATE because they are corrupt and because they are ignorant. This is a bad thing that they are doing. Lastly, we have built the best economy the world has ever seen. We have created a great standard of living. Why would we want to copy some other country in how they handle things? Maybe we could, if we thought about it, create the best health system in world and do it our way.

So what you are saying...Derek....

Is that I am wrong for wanting to chose who my doctor is. I am wrong for earning and paying my way... and I am wrong for not wanting to pick up yet another Entitlement program for a ass grabbing bunch of Liberals who are hell bent on relinquishing any shape nor form of personal responsibility?

Okay... I.m good with that.....

You are in error thinking me Republican or GOP (if indeed that's what you think) The last President made plenty of really bad moves... But.... He did not hire Communists in his cabinet. And, he was at the very least experience at being in an executive role. His choices were not ones that I would have made. Neither are Bam Bam's...

Simply put...Derek... I believe in Constitutionalism as the best way to guide this Nation. If you feel a need to tag my political leaning.. I believe the only thing we have left in our Two way split mess of a Government right now is that Document... I believed in that Document enough to fight in Desert Storm for it, In Somalia For it, In Afghanistan for it and in Iraq two separate tours for it.

I am disgusted when I here some ass grabbing liberal telling me that I should be more sensitive to people who don't have much... Guess what, I have done all a man should have to do in service and honoring his Country... A whole lot more than many clowns who have done nothing yet want everything. I have done everything I could and want NOTHING... but peace and freedom from this or any other facet of Governmental control in my life. If you cannot wrap your mind around that...Derek... I cant help you... I pay my taxes... allot of them... I don't get a "Refund" put it that way. I also am not afraid of the "PC" people that I will not say it like I see it... There are entire groups and segments of our population that do nothing but leach from this Nation. They were taught by their parents and their parents taught by theirs. Some are white some are black some are other colors or creeds... but they are all takers and project their responsibility for life and its realities onto others under the guise of having the mans foot on their neck.

I have watched in the past 10 months as we have let Afghanistan slip into another Vietnam style last one out grab the flag situation... it was not anywhere near that when I got there or when I left... I have at least 20 friends in that region and have been told by them it has gotten much worse in the past 7 months then it EVER has been... guess who is in charge over there.,..Derek? It ain't Bush.That's for damn sure...

I have fought and have bled for this Nation and do not feel I own some clown sitting on his ass with 14 kids and a barefoot old lady a lifestyle... If you feel like you should take care of him and his mistakes... have at it.

I also believe that if instead of completely revamping the entire system that we just fixed what was broke... it would be far less expensive, people would still get what they want. Start with Tort Reform... then get small businesses the right to group together to get same prices as large companies... I can go on but listen... Its talking to brick walls.... Most people just want a free ride... Maybe some want it for the right reasons... Some just want it because it the Stupid Liberal thing to do...

You just tell me how we pay for it...Derek... That's the question that is still stinking up the room...

Eglide - Your comment is really rediculous about the police and other government agencies equalizing socialism. I think your mind is blurred on what conservatives think. All the protection we pay for in taxes is required and mandated by the constitution. Maybe you should read up on the document to become better informed. Although I do have to admit, paying into the social security system for as long as I have, without any benefit is definitely a redistrubution of my wealth. That is truly a socialist program. Just as government controlled healthcare will be.

What do you think socialism is? It is everybody contributing for the good of all, as compared to fascism which is everybody contributing for the good of a few( see the George W. Bush misadministration). That's what police and fire protection is. That's what roads are. Socialism. Maybe it's just that you think these things are good and therefore can't be socialism because anything from that is bad.

If Repubbies want to call it socialism, tell Sarah to back to Alaska and buid that "bridge to nowhere" all by her lonesome since she's against socialism.

And for the U.S. Constitution, that's on the federal level. The U.S. Constitution has absolutely nothing to do with government on the local level.

Anybody who thinks time is money has never run out of time. I can ALWAYS get money...time? NO. If we sucumb to the two tiered system in health care, we will become just like every two bit tin horn banana republic. Is that what we want from America? People can already design their babies for looks, personality, health and intelligence through genetic engineering.... all for the tidy sum of $ 100,000.00. That by itself will eventually create a permanant underclass whose parents lacked the money to buy them the best genes. Do we really want to have this kind of society that devalues the individual? Dont medicaid mills already do enough of that?

Carol Ann-2461951,

The statement made in your posting is flawed on at least two different counts:

1. Because the health of Americans rest firmly in the greedy hands of the private sector, proof of ability to pay is required before treatment will be offered;

2. Despite the pie-in-the-sky mantra being universally touted by those who stand to lose financially from any type of reform that would allow all Americans to have equal access to healthcare, many employers, are unable to provide health insurance for their employees. Thus on the highly improbable chance that someone were actually given treatment, there would be no “…insurance to get their money back…” as you so cavalierly suggest.

I don't believe you will see this Nationwide but rather as in every profession, what the market of the area will support. There are no laws prohibiting a Physician from being totally exclusive. Most of us have read that Jackson had his own as do many of the more wealthy. They also have their own lawyers, plumbers, domestic staff, etc. I would be willing to go out on a limb and say that more than likely the Wall Street and insurance companies elite have their own.

The thing that needs to be brought to the surface is what specialty are these Physicians. Having your own GP is one thing but unless you are in very poor health I doubt one would have a full time Surgeon unless they are in the Plastics business.

This article is more or less saying these particular Physicians are utilizing two different approaches to meet their market. They are using the same monetary divide that air carriers have used forever, first class and coach. You all get to the same place but at different comfort levels. They also have non stop flights that get you to your destination quicker than those that have a lay over.

There are many Primary Care Physicians that will not accept Medicaid or perhaps Medicare. This is not a new concept it have been going on for many years. Again it is what the market in your area will support. Physicians not in your Hospital settings or Emergency Rooms are not required by any thing other than an oath to serve anyone.

Anyone in a private business has that freedom. Joe the Plumber can refuse a job if he wants to watch a basketball game.

As a Surgeon I am telling you not to be alarmed by this article because there are very few areas in the Country that would support such a move and there are many of us who put our oath above all else. But like you we are only human and have our limitations. My first surgery was at 6am today and by 3:15 I had completed 6. I am tired, hungry, and want to spent some time with my family. I have to make rounds tomorrow morning but my first surgery is not until 10am. I don't have to be at work until 7:30 tomorrow, so you can say I get to sleep in unless I get a call during the middle of the night.

Oh that's nice. Tell that to your 90 year old mother who's deathly ill. Is your Doctor Feel Good going to take care of her heatlh care needs? What if you become very ill, is Nurse Good Body going to do the same, or will the Doctor she works for drop you like a hot potato? Then, since no healthcare professional wants to take care of you, will your insurance company do the same?

I agree that some competition will possibly make healthcare competative, but I am not so sure that all healthcare professionals have their patients best interest at heart. Be careful what you ask for, you might get it.

JazzJ,

If you are talking to me I am not sure what you are saying. The 6 people I performed surgery on today are in ICU at the Hospital and are in very capable hands right now. I am a Vascular Surgeon and trained at specific skills. Trust me the people taking care of these people right now are better at that element of the procedure than I am. If they need me for any reason I can be there in 10 minutes.

I have no idea of what payment method these people are using nor do I care. Right now unless something goes wrong tonight 4 of them will be released tomorrow. I am assuming because of their age two are on Medicare.

One of the two that will not be discharged tomorrow I am very concerned about because they waited too long to have the surgery either by their own doing or were not referred quickly enough.

I am not asking you for anything other than perhaps a little understanding.

mytalktoday.com/solutions

First and foremost... I am not "PO ED" at the world... as a matter of a fact... I am really enjoying my life. I own my own business that I brought out of the ground with the help of friends and family. And I take care of my own issues and family.

As far as you statement saying... "I am prideful look at me" people who know me would laugh in your face. I am not a elitist and by no means prideful... what YOU have mistaken for pride... I call confidence. I am very confident that ANYONE who decides to stand on their own two feet and make clear cut choices concerning their lives is capable of anything. Usually when I come across someone who Say's " "you are being prideful or arrogant in what you are saying" It is because that person has lived well below their capabilities and are now trying to lower others to justify their own weakness and short comings. I say what I mean... I was brought up that way. I was also brought up to take responsibility for all I do, say, and fall short in. And to never ask others to do anything I would not do myself or want done to me.

A clear example of your shortcomings is how you use the little Internet diddy...LOL.... Instead of making a reasonable comment. Are you trying to bolster MY belief in what you say? Or... Your self? Can you tell me WHY it would be a bad idea to allow small business to buy into insurance Group plans at the same rate as larger companies? Particularly since it is a win win for both sides... Or is the best you can muster...LOL...? Weak... very weak and very short sighted. If you are going to be an elitist... start reading... there are some damn good ones around these pages... they can teach you much if that is what you wish to be.

YOU SAY..."Universal single payer would cost less than half of what we are now paying."

Can you show me where I can verify that information?... Can you give me an example? Did you pull it out of the "My Opinion File"? Can you show me why having a plan ran by the Government who has to my knowledge (since I worked for then for nearly 15 years is Superior to yours) Never ran any operation inside the black tape.... Most Governmental run operations are a cluster f**k and desperately in need of being remanded to the round file. I guess we could use Social Security... Nope, it in trouble, Medicare... Nope, Overrun with to many claims and falling way short in its obligation, I have a Mother and Father... I know this. How about Medicaid? Full blow Handout service, But very much needed... How is that working out? I can tell ya... Its not... Most of those being cared for under its provisions are not cared for well enough. About the only thing Medicaid has become is where people can go when they cannot afford to pay to have their Baby... they go to medicaid... One of the reasons I support the service. Otherwise you have children not being cared for. I blame parents for not being responsible once again... Why have a child if you cannot even pay the cost of bringing them into the world... then expecting "The Gov... to do it for you"... God bless the Kids... its not their fault and its why I support the program.. the parents should be FORCIBLY sat down... and taught how to think, live, plan, purchase, Budget, etc etc etc... But NOOOO... we just give the hand out and shove them on their way... till the next time the baby is do...

My comment about Fixing what we already have was answered by you thus...

"yeah, because you wouldn't want people to be abvle to hold a broken system accountable or something."

??????? Huh... Whats this shiznit... some kind of conspiracy theory. Wake up and smell the Scotch... You are proceeding from the assumption that this Nation OWES YOU something... It owes NONE of us... It is up to EACH of us to make it operate.... But, there are those like yourself who are convinced that The United States is here to make your life roses....WRONG!!!!! it is here to PROMOTE your well being and protect your rights so that YOU can prosper through your OWN EFFORT...

See... You can run... But you cannot hide from this statement... You either believe you are responsible for yourself and the children you produce... Or you feel that the REST of are should be responsible for you and them... They call that SOCIALISM... we are not a Socialist Country... plenty exist and you are welcome to go to any you wish. But do not for a moment try to change this one into a Commune...

HEAR ME AGAIN.... this Country... and the people who work hard in it every day.. will help those in need... but it is not here to supply YOU with all you need to be able to do what you wish with you money while others pay for your responsibilities... and all the smart ass Liberal Grabasstic comments and breakdowns of my past posts will change that fact. IF you are trying as Myself and many others believe. To turn America into a Socialist or Communist State with you Entitlements and your Gimme attitudes... Get ready for one @!$%# of a fight... Cause we are not going quietly....

Take care of YOUR responsibilities... and none of this even get on the table... does it????

If Congress would have voted to use the public option themselves and require it for all government employees, the public option would not have been just for the masses.

But, they spoke with their vote - Let them eat cake.

For those of us who have employer provided healthcare, say bub-bye to it.

Your only option for great health care will be to either be rich or be President.

You just tell me how we pay for it...Derek... That's the question that is still stinking up the room...

I already answered that in saying thinking people are trying to come up with a solution. You are assuming it can't be paid for, and sure I acknowledge that it may be true. But not before someone looks at how it could be paid for.

Basically, I just agree that the answers in how it's going to be paid for have been poor so far. Are we going to be taxed by it? Are we going to borrow it from China? Probably, but of course both those solutions are stupid. Higher taxes will get politicians thrown out of office (just happened this round of elections) and borrowing it from China will again weaken the US (sadly, I predict this is what will happen anyway). The best way to pay for the program is find out where the money is being hoarded and right now it is in the insurance companies. Don't tell me they are just doing business when they reach through the phone and tell your doctor what they can prescribe. Is that the America you want to live in?

Again, don't assume that it can't work. But I have no problem with loud skeptics. After all, look at the national debt we already have.

Too Long!

And I thought I was long winded...

Why is it so hard for people to grasp that the insurance companies are middle man who mate the customers (you and I) to vendors (doctors). The insurance improves their profit by
1. increase intake (premium)
2. decrease payout to doctors (deny claims, or lower procedure payments)
3. become more selective with customers (move out of states, not cover troubled demographics, cancel policies)

Remember, this is not wrong for a company to profitable. However, as an American, I think this is too greedy.

Roberta,

Greed on who's part?? The underlying problem is with the insurance providers. They keep increasing their premiums to the patients and decreasing their payouts to the Dr.'s. That's where the greed lies.........

Pat-819592 I'm surprised at you. How do you expect the CEO's and top their top staff to make $50 -$100 million a year. People with your way of thinking have no emotions as to how these people would be able to live without 3-4 houses, lear jets, 130 foot salt water cabins, sons and daughters in Ivy League schools and a largese to leave them so they won't have to work forever. What are you thinking?

I can only assume you mean greed on the part of the people who expect a free ride from the system, right? Doctors, nurses, and health care professionals expecting to get paid commensurate to the level and quality of care they are willing and able to provide, rather than deal with rationed payments designed to underfund the work they do is rational self interest.

It's all about money, those who have it and those who don't. Those who have it, wish to keep it and continue making more of it at the expense of those who don't. They say they worship God. This is a lie, they worship money.

One word sums all of this up

"Pneumonoultramicroscopicsilicovolcanoconiosis"

and it isn't the insurance companies, it's a coalition of morticians and dentists; not the DDS kind, they're cool, its DMDs that are about to bring this nation to its knees. Oblivious Americans will just sit by as they remove all remaining copper deposits from the earth; at that point how am I supposed to afford my crack. I hate the undertaker; he's gotta be like seventy now. I know it makes about as much sense as Pat's or Yankura's posts; I think I win this contest though.

JB-1123320 - So what you're saying is that anyone who spends 25 years educating themselves then goes out and gets a high paying job is only doing it because the worship money? So what is the cutoff that defines when a person worships money? Do you get to decide? Seems like a pretty slippery slope to me...

Is it greedy that a doctor who worked from 8 to 12 years to recieve their training, and must continue to recieve education throughout their careers, want to earn the lifestyle they want? If you are unsatisfied with the wage you earn, don't you ask for a raise? Or if you own your own business when your costs or overhead rises don't you raise your prices? If the people don't want higher costs for the same service or goods then they go elsewhere. That is why Walmart is such a great success. They offer the same quality at lower prices through management of their costs and overhead just like the insurance side of the clinic in the article. The cash side adds to the personal service and comfort of the experience just like shopping at a boutique store does over Walmart. The end result is the same, you pay more for the comfort and service.

Roberta,

Greed? Again, on who's part? Everybody has to make money. Don't you? By the way, the healthcare bill will pass and we'll all get substandard care, so don't worry about it. It'll be the long lines like in Canada and the UK because we have so many people that don't even work and not enough doctors. Some people have baby after baby because the government pays for it. In California, pregnant girls go to school with their cell phones, get free breakfast, lunch, and daycare for their existing kids and never work. Oh, by the way, the people in govt. right now are considering legalizing about 12 million illegal immigrants, so let the lines form now!

By the way, the healthcare bill will pass and we'll all get substandard care, so don't worry about it. It'll be the long lines like in Canada and the UK because we have so many people that don't even work and not enough doctors.

How long are these idiots going to keep believing in their fairy-tale boogeyman "rationing"?

News flash: the USA spends 90% more on health care per person than Canada and only has 9% more doctors per capita.

We have no excuse for how little our system produces, given the massive costs.

On equal funding, a public universal system clearly outperforms a privatized one like the USA has.

We spend more money on health care than any nation on earth. Let's build a public system and actually get the universal high-quality care that we've been paying for and not getting (unless you're rich).

...

"JB-1123320 - So what you're saying is that anyone who spends 25 years educating themselves then goes out and gets a high paying job is only doing it because the worship money?"

You are very naive if you do not realize that this happens all of the time now. You must live a very sheltered life, and not in a big city either.

I like how everybody says places like canada always have long lines. I have never waited more then 20 minutes to see the doctor and I have never been rushed out just so they can move on to the next patiant. The system isn't as bad as alot of people are making it sound.

88% of those Canadians like their system, CBS news Oct/09.

Perhaps it should be clarified that public systems can be different from each other. The Canadian system is not the British system is not the French system . . .

Of course you think doctors sleep and eat in the hospitals AWAY from their families and spend all that oodles of money just to "help" people??? hmmm

You're darn right I like my Canadian system -- saved my life 8 years ago. I'd have lost my home had I been under US insurance at the time. I was diagnosed and on an operating table swithin TWO WEEKS. Followed by six months of chemo & rad and years of follow-up. I saw one bill -- for the television set I rented while in hospital for 10 days. Our horrible, Commie, wait-forever system worked pretty well, I'd say.

Do we wait longer than you for procedures? I think in some cases, yes we do, like knee surgery. It's not life-threatening so you can wait months or even a year depending on your case. Things like mammograms -- I waited 6 weeks for a routine appointment. 'Elective' surgery can have long wait times, again depending on one's case. Some people go the private route for elective surgery because of wait times, if they can afford it and the surgeries are done here in Canada, not the US.

We're certainly not perfect up here but if you are seriously ill or injured you get treated and you don't go bankrupt doing it. I haven't paid a premium in 30 years -- my employer has always done that and that includes extended benefits of dental and eyecare (Blue Cross) Blue Cross is a private extended health insurer -- how come they can offer all this coverage and still make a profit?

And who funds all this govt.-run health care? Well, I do, of course, through taxes. Do I pay more in taxes than you do? I don't know, but my rate is around 27% of income. I'm no mathematician but it seems to me that even if that is a high rate of tax, it's still a pretty good deal as opposed to some of the insurance premiums I've read about from companies that still deny care to the truly in need.

For those of you who oppose Obama'a health care reform, what's the difference between paying a pile of money in taxes, or paying a pile of money in insurance premiums?

Whodressesyou.... In a short answer to your question..

"For those of you who oppose Obama'a health care reform, what's the difference between paying a pile of money in taxes, or paying a pile of money in insurance premiums?"

The difference is CHOICE.... and Freedom.... and the Personal relationship between me and my doctor... without the Government have ANYTHING to say about what is said between us. If you really and truly believe that privacy and trust will still be the case when you are getting ANYTHING from the Government... Or when the Government is deciding if you qualify for this procedure or that. You simply have not done much business with the Government and do not know the way they justify what they do.

If you can care less... as long as its free or seems free... shame on you... If you do care... take some time and look over all the things in this Country the Government controls or runs... how do they stack up? Are they competitive? Do they have control over spending and waste? Are they reliable and trustworthy? Do they keep abuse and corruption at bay?... I would challenge you to tell me one thing our Government runs that really is a good business model for someone who wants to open a business and needs a blueprint on how to start and make it work. After that... take a peek at how far our Nation is in Debt and then decide if you would allow them to run your company if your children and Mothers and Fathers lives counted on them... because some day... they may just have to.

So what you're saying is that anyone who spends 25 years educating themselves then goes out and gets a high paying job is only doing it because the worship money?"

How much money do these people make that have spent 25 years educating themselves? I'm assuming 25 years includes k-12???

Greed?

So I would like to see everyone on this Vine that works for free type in their name. OK, how about everyone that has turned down a raise from their boss because they just did not want more money - after all it might make it look like they were working to make money.

If there was free market competition overcharging doctors would be out of business. Ever amaze you that doctors perform a service for you, then bill you months later for the service. But, you were never told how much the service cost before the service was rendered, WHY?

Derek V -- you make some valid points. Governments aren't exactly reknowned for running efficient businesses. Do you think your police, army and post office should be privatized? If your government is as corrupt and inept as you feel it is, logic would dictate that police and army would be less corrupt and inefficient if privatized. Somehow I don't think that would be the case.

But given the current state of private health care in the US, how else can the situation be fixed if government does not step in in some fashion? I mean, who else could do it? Aren't there things you'd like to see fixed?

I'm Canadian, BTW, I don't get bills from doctors. Or bills from anybody for health care. (I did get a bill for $800.00 once from a hospital in California for a visit when I had major sciatic pain. One hour, a short visit with an Emerg doc, a shot of Demoral and a scrip for some pills. Eight Hundred Dollars. You guys are being hosed! Oh yeah, my insurance took care of that bill, it just took a lot of paperwork)

I do have choice in my health care -- I don't HAVE to go to a doctor I don't like and I don't HAVE to accept a surgeon I don't trust. If I can pay for it, I can jump the line and get elective surgery faster. I can buy private health insurance and thumb my nose at MSP (Medical Services Plan which everybody is supposed to buy if their employer doesn't) What happens if I don't buy MSP? n-o-t-h-i-n-g. I'm not going to jail and I'm not fined. I'll have trouble getting anything but emergency care, mind you. What choices do you have that I don't?

Re privacy, do you think your medical records are going to be read by some snoopy anonymous government spook, and if so, to what end? Your medical records are already being read by a snoopy insurer, checking up on you and looking for loopholes. What's the diff? And call me naive, but I don't think my govt. is interested in reading my medical records. Who has the time and interest to read my tatty file, anyway?

Guys, like I said, our system sure ain't perfect but we're not labouring under some Red Yoke of Oppression up here, good grief! Do you really feel like you have 'freedom and choice' NOW? There are restrictions a'plenty with both systems, one just seems a lot less fair to the sick.

"Anyone that believes that the government is going to make things better is a bloody fool."
Anyone that believes probably could not believe that there is not something better than the current system of care.

Could you clarify that? I read it five times and I'm still not sure what you said.

I know right? lol

RhoXS

Your misunderstanding the article, the quality of care is the same,(read by the same radiologist) but the level of service is higher with the higher cost.

But the level of service is the quality of care. Duh.
Besides, if a person pays an insurance plan for years and years every month, are they not paying more than the person that walks in with cash?

In too many cases, J.A.'s are in charge of making mortal decisions.

lk in La.... actually.... No, if your paying into insurance Alot of your money is paying some middle man to save your money for you. It would be cheaper for you, and the doctor would get paid more if people would just wise up and stop stupidly buying into insurence....

And if your insurance pays out more then you pay in, well YOUR the reason insurence is too high. The rest of us(atleast some of us) dont want to subside you anymore.

All insurance plans are systems of subsidy for any one within the plan inclusive of everyone else under their insurance plan, Proud Non-arab muslim. So you imply that you want to drop your own insurance.

Dropped it MANY years ago.... Instead I "pay" into my own savings account... Cheaper in the long run and I MUCH more money then insurance would ever pay out..

And i hope no hard feelings, I didnt meant that as an attack toward you, just everyone who reads it and falls into that catagory

Agree !!!!!! It's not about health care at all but controlling the money involved. Now the real punch line is that taxpayers will begin to foot the bill for this thing next year and it won't be in place for 4 years and, sure, you betcha, those funds will be there, right? Not a chance in hades..........

Don't you mean as they do right now in the US? After all this is a story about what is happening now, in the US. Not about what will happen in the future if we switch to a one payer system.

If you can read you can succeed.

If you want top tier care do what I do, pay cash to MDs. I have a high deductible policy. So I'm covered for catastrophes, and can gain access ( most hospitals want to see that card, not a bank statement ). I have noticed that I do get better care. To bad many of you "conservatives" can't afford to do that.

So therefore the most that can be expected is a plan that will universally give everyone emergency care. But complete emergency care, not just stabilization which is guaranteed for free now, but complete treatment to the point of healing after the emergency incident. Plus a health care plan for those who are disabled, not just permanently but for those that are temporarily disabled. Everything else that anyone is asking for in a health care plan is being dismissed as requests by people who expect government to do every single little thing for them. So keep things the same and the question is why should only the well-off be able to get medical care? So better ask for just the above, or everyone will just get a 'plastic surgery' plan, because that is what the wealthy want most. And if some are trying to endorse a plan that will shift the poor out of any care at all, then what is the reason to ask for a health care plan?

Then why do we need doctors? Nurse practitioners claim that their profession is capaple of doing physician duties, use them if we are suppose to 'get what we pay for'. In fact, with your logic, some of us should only be entitled to see nurses aids.

Mickey

Very good analysis

Fool!

How much do you think the leading lawyers make that are adding to the rise in cost of medicine? I can tell you that it's much more than $500,000 per year. Get off your class warfare high horse.

Uncalled for pacman. Reported and ignored.

What's uncalled for? Doctor's deserve to make a good living. The BS degree 3 years, med school 4 years, residency 3-5 years, fellowship 1-2 years, getting a practice up and running 1-2. So the investment of 12 years at the earliest (with the more likely scenario of 14-15 years after high school) does not portend to a good wage?

What is with you all? If anyone deserves to make a decent living, it's physicians.

Why don't you report this K-444922, tattletale?

I got news for your it is your government that causes the price of healthcare to be so high.....

#1. They pay hospitals on a DRG(Drug Related Grouping) which is between 50% and 75% of what they charge so they have to make up the difference with Insurance.

#2. In order to be JCAHO accredited they have to follow all the government guidelines for patient care.....that is why it cost you $5 for a tylenol....A doctor to prescribe, a pharmacist to fill the med, a nurse to give it to you, and a clerk to document it.

#3. These people have many years of education why would you think they should work for nothing?

Suzen, I agree that the main cost of rising healthcare costs is the federal government. The legal system is up there as well. NOt just in legal fees and malpractice insurance but in tests, etc. that we all know would not be performed except to CYA.

They do not need to be boutique patients. They already recieve much better care at a lower cost than most people do. The have access to one of the best hospitals in the nation and are treated like royalty when they make an appointment. The worst part is that we pay for their luxury that they take for granted.

Yeah that pretty much sums it up. They won't answer ths question,,, never.

I totally agree.

Doctors should not be allowed to charge two different prices for the same procedure. Make that illegal, and they'll negotiate higher prices with insurance companies, lowering the out-of-pocket prices.

As long as there is a two-tiered pricing structure, there will be a two-tiered system of quality.

The additional cost was for the extra time spent by the physician to read and deliver the results immediately and the additional ammenities like only a 2 day wait for an appointment, spa robe, nicer office atmosphere, and personal service. The patient is willing to pay more for the extra comfort and service. The insurance side is all about assembly line medicine to make a profit. A new MRI machine costs the same for both sides, by seeing more patients and doing more tests to use the machine a lower price can be charged because of quantity. The old addage that Time is Money is true. In business an individuals time equals an overhead cost, the less they spend on an individual case the less the cost is likely to be. It's that simple.

O.K. time is money is true. So just how does that figure if the business model profit for the medical business=blood money? Want to admit it?

Non Physician practioners are well and good but still require training. In some cases they can adequately handle a diagnosis and treatment, but even then they are back stopped by a physician. I personally would rather have a trained physician to see at a clinic or hospital, the colds, flu, sprains, and minor injuries I can treat myself. I only go to a physician when there is a need not on a whim. Unfortunately there are people that run to the clinic or ER whenever they are feeling out of sorts, and that is where a PA or NP is perfect for the job.

Job descriptions need to be changed throughout the whole medical field. The titles of doctor and nurse need to be done away with, atleast as they are currently used. There needs to be a single career path based on a combination of experience plus school. For example, those with only a few weeks of school would be eligible to be the equivalent of nurses aids. Alittle more experience plus more school could make the equivalent of a licensed practical nurse. Proven experience, as in no work problems, plus alot more school could make the equivalent of a sugeon. It may seem trivial to bring up the subject of job descriptions. But if there really is an economic problem anywhere, as there is in health care too, then anything that could fix the system should be done. Paying people for what they are not good at, even if they can display a degree, is extremely poor economic sense.

Yeah good luck with that.

Ex Marine

While I don't care anymore for what is happenning in washington now than you do, I think it would be easier to steal a B-2 with a nuke on board and drop it on washington. The people you wish to sue are for the most part lawyers themselves and would tie this thing up in court for eons and find away to syphon even more money into their corrupt pockets from us than they do now.

That's another reason costs are so high. Too many people are ready to sue at the drop of a hat.

Dr Hawk,

I thank you for your post as it shows an inside view to what you and other physician's face every day. I do want to throw one thing at you and have you ponder this question even though I know the answer in part.

Could part of the blame in cost be because of the cost shift that is happening with Medicare, Medicaid, and Insurance cutting reimbursements. Wouldn't a possible solution given the chronic shortage of providers be for providers to stand up and start refusing to take insurance and any government funded program? Why is this not happening more and why are providers not vocal about it? (Or maybe they are it just isn't reported.)

I honestly see the cost of health care as an issue with providers. Both doctors and facilities like hospitals and radiology centers. The problem is that they haven't put their foot down against the government and insurance. The patients are the last line of defense. It is the provider that is the first line of defense. This line has been broken for over 30 years. I do realize that in some cases this could potentially curtail practice size, but given the demand and the weakened supply is it not possible to continue without taking insurance? This article seems to illustrate that it is possible.

Your math dosent add up!

It sure doesn't....doctor.

Given that public systems produce more doctors than the USA system (France spends less on health care per capita and has 37 doctors per 10,000 people, compared to 23 in the USA. Also, Canada spends 55% of what the USA spends on health care, but has 92% as many doctors), what would we rather have...

A. 200 overworked doctors earning $300,000 per year?

or

B. 300 doctors earning $200,000 per year?

I'd go with "B" myself.

Carl W

The populations of France and Canada don't come close to adding up to the 300,000,000 plus of the US. Not to mention that in the US there are a couple million poorly educated illegal immegrants that soak up benefits and creates costs that someone else has to pick up. That is the cost that being one of the most powerful economies and least restrictive nations brings. People flock here because of our freedoms and the opportunities that are available to everyone. The problem with comparing other countries with single payer or socialized medicine to the US is that your comparing apples to plums. Besides your figures don't reflect the cost to their own citizens only in relation to per capita expendatures here. In Canada for example, every tax dollar collected at present spends 40 cents on health care with the number to rise to almost 60 cents by 2012. The Canadian government is encouraging a return to private clinics as a way to ease the burden on their system which is already over stressed. Is the quality the same or better there than here? Yes it is about the same depending on where you go and which doctors you see. Is their lifestyle different from ours? Yes it is along with the health concerns that plague them. The big difference is in the wait for treatment. In Canada for example, the wait for a proceedure can be months or years on a regular basis, here it is measured in days or weeks. Yes we pay more for our care but then our system is different from all those others just like our health concerns, lifestyle and population size as well. Statistics can be a good measure when applied correctly but only when used to full extent otherwise it can be blinding as a bright light in the darkness.

drhawk, I wish to God I could quit making use of doctors services. Do you think that just because I am not a physician, I do not know how much treatments are being diced up and diluted? Often I have tried alternative care with success. I would drop all insurance this second if it was not for the possible emergency room conundrum.

I would just like to suggest that anyone who thinks they have to wait longer in Canada to see a doctor than they do in America to just research Canadian health care on Google and see what people who have experienced both systems have to say.

The truth is that the Canadian system is the one that everyone seems to prefer, hands down, and this stuff about waiting longer is simply not true.

It would sure be nice if we could lose all the death panel type scare tactics out of this, but I know that isn't going to happen.

The insurance companies, though paying less, always pay. Cash customers that enter payment plans carry risk that now the doctor or clinic has to now assume. If they don't pay it becomes the clinics job to collect and that costs significantly more.

I always prepay or pay right before I leave the office.........cash price is still out of balance with insurance. Like flylowguy, I get the indigent routine from the financial counselors. My response is always, "Lady. I work , live within my means, and have too much money in the bank to be talking to you." Cash is indeed rare these days when so much credit is being used to just "survive".

Caplan is an elitist jacka$$, thinking that you can get something for nothing, or that doctors should work for peanuts. Insurance reimbursement rates are below provider costs and it's only going to get worse. When Congress cuts Medicare reimbursement rates to fund their socialist medical system, doctors will bail from taking Medicare for payment, and rightly so. If you wanted me to sign a contract that bound me to accept $100 as full payment for a service that cost $150 to deliver, I'd politely tell you to go take a flying leap. You wouldn't expect to pay your auto mechanic $100 for a repair that took him or her 4 hours and $100 in parts, would you?

Sorry Zeke, but much of America has their fingers in their ears and are singing "la-la-la."

Your probably correct Zeke, and most Americans would agree that something needs to be done. But polls show that most Americans also DO NOT WANT OUR GOVERMENT running our health care! There are many ways to correct the problem. Sweeny, the people with their fingers in their ears are people like you that actually believe the politicians are doing anything for you! This is a power play!

And yet, public universal systems produce far more doctors per dollar spent, and far less medical bankruptcy than the USA's system.

the USA spends 90% more on health care than Canada (per capita) and only has 9% more doctors. They also don't bankrupt people for getting injured when they lost their job and insurance.

So yes, a public system is better.

You can say "I don't want the gov't running health care", but when every country on Earth with gov't run health care gets more and better care per dollar spent than the USA, then you (conservatives out there) are hoping, based on disproven conjecture, that we don't fix our broken system.

Zeke

I recently lost my sister in law to a massive infection. She went in to be diagnosed on a tuesday and by thursday would probably have been gone had a respirator not been connected to keep her alive until family arrived. But that is not my point. She had been sick at home for about 10 days prior to her husband calling an ambulance to take her to the hospital. If she had gone to the doctor claiming abdominal pain when she first felt it,something not normally serious, could she have waited 10 days or 6weeks or 6 months for the test results? Remember from onset to death was about 12 days total. What a lovely sympathy card for my family it would have been to open the test results weeks later to find she had a massive abdominal infection and could have been saved by imediate doses of broad spectrum antibiotics.

And @$$holes, I mean, people are getting what they voted for. A kick in the @$$.

Pretty much my sentiments, Zeke.

Crazy -- OK, if not the government running health care, then WHO?? We can see what a mess private insurers have made, so WHO ELSE?

Mark

Remember this was set up as an impartial test to see what the outcome would be and the differences involved. Knowing what your doctor will do and walking into a clinic for the first time are two different things. The point of this article was to illustrate the difference in service as the justification for the additional cost. To read anymore into this article would be silly.

To me what your post illustrates is that the patient is willing to pay more for personal service, less wait time, and greater peace of mind. That the impersonality of assembly line medicine is unacceptable to those who want something more personal. The affordability doesn't really come into play because I am sure there are people who are sacrificing other things to afford the better health care service they recieve even though it's quality may be the same.

Tim,

I made this comment earlier in my question posed to another doctor or purported doctor above. To put it more bluntly in your post.

Providers can stand together and reject medicare/medicaid and insurance. Or they can die separately. It all comes down to an organized provider rebellion against these things. Without one, you are correct, practices will close and the few survivors that remain will be all the more pressed to keep up if not cease altogether to exist.

People will always get sick. Doctors will always be needed. The issue is that doctors are going to have to organize and fight beaurocrats setting what doctors are paid for their labor.

Wow Bartman, you really nailed it, well said Sir!

Bartman, I dont have health insurance and do not plan on getting it. I pay cash for services! Under new system I will be fined if I dont sign up. Now tell me how this is better then where I am now?

liberalism is a mental disorder!

Well Crazy, unless you are multi millionaire, if you get a million dollar diagnosis, you're bankrupt.

And if you are a millionaire, you won't be anymore.

But no worries, after all, if you don't get really sick with the big C or something, don't conservatives say that the rich always get better care no matter what?

Bartman

Having read a few of your posts you seem to have trouble following any type of logic.

Bartman, What the Repubs suggested was voted out and the news media never picked it up. Why was it done behind closed doors with only democrats? If it was so good, why doesn't everyone want it? Why didn't they just fix what was broken? This was about control--control healthcare, education, energy--and then you control the country. It's a done deal so we are wasting our breath. You can be sure from the president on down, they won't have the regular people's healthcare.

Bartman

What they are saying, and in my opinion rightly so, is that the reforms before the house and senate will make things worse overall in the long term. Especially when you consider the current state of our economy and national debt.