I just like this part...

The study therefore raises the controversial question of whether men are necessary at all for successful parenting.

:D

These studies centered on lesbian parents and *expectations* that gay men would do as well. Expectations ?

As rightly pointed out in the article, it is currently popular to overlook paternal culture even though we know very well that children of single mothers are more prone to crime and do not do as well as children with both biological mother and father living in the same household.

Fathers are currently considered less crucial because they are away from the house at work. With more women working away from home, mothers are also delegating their responsibilities to day care facilities.

Ian, no ... the article right out said children raised by single mothers are LESS likely to be involved in crime, and MORE likely to go to college. Fathers are being devalued because they're relatively failing at fatherhood. If women can be good mothers and have a career, it is strange that men are unable to acheive at the same level. Men have allowed culture to excuse their indolence. They're not really less than women they're just not pulling their weight.

lady tamano wrote "he article right out said children raised by single mothers are LESS likely to be involved in crime, and MORE likely to go to college."

I don't know what you're trying to say, but if you're saying that the children of single mothers are more successful and less prone to commit crimes, even this article disagrees with you.

"If women can be good mothers and have a career, it is strange that men are unable to acheive at the same level."

Men as a whole have better careers because they work more hours than women (43 vs. 37/week, according to 2008 report from US government labor report), so it's not that strange. What we see is a maternal culture that is better in the home, and a paternal culture that is better at work outside the home.

Men as a whole have better careers because they work more hours than women (43 vs. 37/week, according to 2008 report from US government labor report), so it's not that strange. What we see is a maternal culture that is better in the home, and a paternal culture that is better at work outside the home.

If I draw only from my own experience (which logically is all I can if I'm not putting total faith in dry statistics I have not witnessed) it's not even that men have "better" careers, or work longer hours, or get paid more, etc.; or that maternal culture is better in the home and paternal culture is better at work... It's that there seems to have been a complete absence of a cultivated paternal culture at all.

That's not for a lack of trying, however. I'm not saying all fathers are slacking off, but I'm saying most of what I've seen my entire life, fathers don't really think of themselves as fathers before anything else. Some might, but most seem to think of themselves as employees first, fathers second. Historically men have prioritized their time as being best spent at work before being spent at home, and look at what it led to -- women's liberation, which ultimately led to single-parent households and men being nearly removed from the picture altogether.

For some reason, American culture still seems to dictate that this is "only normal" just because it's so common. We don't seem to expect enough out of our fathers today.

When God tells me directly it's ok then it'll be ok for them to marry and he's not changing his mind, so neither am I.

This isn't about civil rights, so please stop using that ploy.

God never said anuthing about it - however he IDS the one who created homosexuals (in thousands of species) So it is apparent that you are ignorant

Coincidentally "marriage" is not mentioned in the Bible; "Matrimony" is

When God tells me directly it's ok then it'll be ok for them to marry and he's not changing his mind, so neither am I.

God talks to you? Does he stop by for coffee or use his Blackberry? Did he tell you "directly" that he had a problem with gay marriage? Or are you just going on what that old bigot Leviticus had to say? Cause Leviticus said a lot of other stuff that I would bet the farm you ignore totally.

And you know God's mind...you know he's not changing it...wow. I'm impressed. I thought God was capable of holding all thoughts of all creatures in his mind at once...even the agonized sreams of the countless souls he was torturing in hell, and you can tell what he's thinking. You can speak for him. Amazing. Yes. Very impressive.

Not that long ago someone would have suggested medication and a rubber room for someone who claimed to know God's mind and had God talk to him "directly". My how times have changed.

I have posted this before, and I will post this again.

I have two dads. Yes.... two... married to each other!

I am a grown woman, married myself, to a man! I have a job, have worked in education since I graduated from college. I also have a Master's degree! I know... shocking right? That a person can have two dads and grow up um... normal? Healthy? Tax paying citizen?

My kids love their grandpas, and life is pretty darn good! Oh yeah, we all believe in God! I was taught Christian values from my dads and I teach the same to my kids.... love everyone the way god loves them. Love people, not judgement and hate!

They wouldn't be scorned & laughed at in school if ppl like you would raise your kids with some damn sense! You, nor your kids are like everyone else either. If you wanna raise your kids to be judgemental & hateful toward ppl with different backgrounds as themselves....be my guest. I feel sorry for the sad, lonely life they will be living though.

I happen to know many young children with SS parents who don't get made fun at all. It's funny how much more accepting young children are than their adult counterparts. Can you imagine what the world would be like without parents raising their kids to be hateful & judgemental of everyone?

BTW....there was a time, not so long ago, when kids got made fun of for having divorced parents too. Boy how that's changed. Most ppl evolve, but those of you who choose not to, are...well...ignorant by choice.

You will notice of course that this article was written by two authors who come from homosexual haven states and without a doubt a biased opinion from ho mo activists and them for obvious reasons.

Have you noticed that regardless what the researches credentials are, professional associations are, and methodology used, if they say anything positive or even neutral with regards to anything related to homosexuality, they are automatically biased.

from the MSNBC article "gay men may turn out as the best parents because of the deep commitment required for them to legally father children."

Why aren't fathers and husbands valued by American women? Why would a gay man value his male partner any more than the typical American marriage values a father? It may be difficult for gay men to parent children, but at most one of them will be the biological father. We all know that step-fathers as a rule have a weaker commitment to the children of their spouse and are more inclined to abuse them than a biological father.

The MSNBC quote implicitly states that it will be considerably more difficult for gay men to reach the state of fathering, and thus the success rate will be lower.

Why aren't fathers and husbands valued by American women?

Dunno, why aren't mothers and wives and women in general valued by American men?

solid - you haven't demonstrated this; in fact many would say the issue is that women are valued MORE by men, not equal to other things

eriq samson

solid - you haven't demonstrated this; in fact many would say the issue is that women are valued MORE by men, not equal to other things

You want a demonstration? Go by domestic violence and infidelity statistics. Men, in a much greater proportion to the inverse of the situation, brutalize women and commit acts of infidelity at greater frequency. There's also the issue of pay disparity but I'm not really citing that because there are different factors that contribute to it while acts of violence or infidelity are purely personal choices.

How do you figure women are valued more by men?

I think both sides have a point here.

For example, look at t.v. commercials and shows where the husband/father is just some dolt who has to have his wife run his life like a drill sergeant. Man-bashing is a part of popular culture these days, there's no doubt about that.

However, because many women work just as much as their husbands do and still do the majority of the traditional household and childrearing duties, I think many feel under-appreciated and over-worked.

Both sexes are at fault here if we want to go with the stereotype. More men should take more initiative to help out their wives and women should learn to be more appreciate of their husbands for the things they do. Spouses should not have to nag each other, if you want help with something or need some quality time, simply ask for it rather than stew over the fact your husband didn't unload the dishwasher or your wife is too tired to have sex.

While I agree with you for the most part, and there is strong validity to the marriage thing, it is my belief that the anti-gay rights people use this topic as a way to divert away from the much stronger CIVIL RIGHTS issue.

As long as the bigots use tactics like discussions about why gays (and LGBT's in general) should not marry, serve in the military, have children, then they have suceeded in diverting your attention away from the much bigger picture and goal...COMPLETE AND EQUAL CIVIL RIGHTS. The bigots know that once CIVIL RIGHTS have been given to ALL PEOPLE, the rest will fall into place, and they don't like, nor do they want that.

It is a matter of enforcing the hierarchy. The elite were able to say "at least I'm not black" until civil rights were extended to everyone. Now they are drawing the wagons around "at least I am not gay." Look at how they refuse to use terms like "civil rights" and "equal rights," but try to use the term "gay rights," as if the LGTB community is asking for something special rather than rights that by law should apply to everyone. Never let your opponent define the terms.

DJSF wrote "Using the previous argument, should there then be a movement to make divorce illegal for heterosexual couples with children?"

Divorce should exist only for the worst marital conditions. The problem with American divorce culture is that the *average* marriage ends in divorce. There is a currently celebration of the "independent mother", which is merely a mother that has booted the father of her children out of the house while securing two decades of child support (alimony in disguise). This means that she is independent of paternal influence on *her* children, but dependent on paternal financial support. She attempts to fill the void of the father with a lifelong string of boyfriends that occasionally do some fatherly deeds but never approach the commitment from a true biological father.

An overhaul of child custody and support awards is desperately needed to reform marriage. When the well-being of children is no longer measured by the short-term happiness of a wife, marriage has a chance. Young women are taught to raise themselves to be independent of men. Guess what? Young boys hear that message, too. What is the result when an entire generation of young men hears that they are not needed for a family?

The anti-same sex marriage movement does not understand - they are the ones trying to make marriage a special right for some heterosexual couples rather than an equal right to a strictly ciivil marriage (matrimony is the religious ceremony; marriage does not require you to have a religion nor a religious figure be present)

There's a commenter here who has posted several times with a rather intolerant view of women. Yet he cites no evidence and makes unsupported claims against the content of the article. I was, and due to the lack of presented evidence still am, under the impression that most divorce proceedings were initiated by the man. Men also are at least as unfaithful as women though their wives and girlfriends are statistically more forgiving which might suggest that more than one transgression could cause the average woman to end her marraige. Finally, children don't just stop eating or stop going to school because daddy hit mommy and had to go away for awhile. Children are awarded to the father when the father is a better parent and there is joint custody most of the time. I don't personally know of any cases at all and have heard of only a handful where wives took unreasonable "alimony" yet I personally know of and have heard numerous cases where the father abandons his children completely whether they have anyone to care for them or not. The commentor who made these outlandish, generalized, and unsupported claims must have had a very strange life.

After reading many of Ian's posts, I have come to the conclusion that he isn't real fond of women. I also will go out on a limb (not too far out) and guess that he's had a nasty divorce, or 2 & has some unresolved issues from that experience. I can't imagine why any woman wouldn't wanna be married to a woman hater?

Child support is alimony in disguise? You're crazy! Maybe that right there is the exact reason father's are looked at the way they are. You helped make them, you help pay for them! Do you know the stats on men who pay NOTHING $0000 for their kids? (Though, I gotta admit, I love my dad very much & don't think that men in general are bad parent's by any means, I know some pretty amazing father's....Ian just isn't a real good example of that!)

After reading many of Ian's posts, I have come to the conclusion that he isn't real fond of women.

You too, huh? He's not very subtle about it. He's not fond of gay people either. Actually he probably doesn't like anyone very much.

My grandfather was a bigot, a racist, a sexist and almost any other -ist you could name. But we used to say he wasn't a prejudiced person because he hated everyone equally.

hardworkinwoman wrote "You helped make them, you help pay for them!"

Agreed. But, women are regularly using the courts to strip willing fathers of their children.

"I know some pretty amazing father's....Ian just isn't a real good example of that!)"

You should stop guessing because you're wrong. Personal attacks are against forum guidelines.

No one has attacked you. It was simply an observation.

My grandfather was a bigot, a racist, a sexist and almost any other -ist you could name. But we used to say he wasn't a prejudiced person because he hated everyone equally.

Hey...mine too! Except in addition to all that he was a wife beater & basically beat my grandmother to death...but that's a whole other story. Yes, can't be prejudiced when you hate everybody equally. What a miserable life that must be!

Ian,

But, women are regularly using the courts to strip willing fathers of their children.

I am aware that this sometimes happens. I don't think it happens as often as you think it does though. When I was in middle/high school my mom was a psychologist who specialized in domestic violence cases. Very long story short, there were a few cases that will always stick out in my mind for the rest of my life. One being a cpl who had gotten divorced, they had joint custody, the father paid his child support...sounds good yes? He was suing for full custody since his ex-wife had lost her job & was struggling to make ends meat. He had a criminal record of beating his ex-wife, but never the daughter. He saved the daughter from the beatings because he chose instead to screw her.

Her name was Desiree, she was 3...almost 4yrs old. She kept telling the judge "daddy hurt my pee pee" among other disgusting things (normally kids this young don't testify & this was done in the judges chambers, not on the stand). After medical evaluation it was discovered that she had been vaginally, & anally raped. You would think this was a cut & dry case, but not so much. The mother herself didn't even wanna keep the girl from her father, she just wanted him to have supervised visitation. The judge allowed him to continue to have joint custody because the mother had a boyfriend & because the child was so young & because her language wasn't up to par (not adult enough) the court couldn't determine that it was the father abusing her & not the boyfriend. 7 months later, Desiree was diagnosed as HIV positive. Her father is now in prison because he had HIV (he wasn't diagnosed until after Desiree). I suppose her life was the best proof the court could ever wish for. This is just 1 story....I have many more if you'd like to hear them.

I empathize with the men who deal with vindictive women, I know many men who deal with that and I do feel horrible. But, I think it's the exception rather than the norm. Most mothers really do want their children to have their father's in their lives. I'm sorry you seemed to have an awful experience, but calling child support "alimony in disguise" is shameful. If you are a good father, as you claim to be, you should be happy your children are well provided for....regardless of whether their mother gets to live a better life for it too.

Brent - IT IS NORMAL

For thousands of species on this planet

Being afraid of sexuality is abnormal

How exactly can you stop gay parenting? You can't stop it any more than you can stop heterosexual parenting. Gay people have children, there is no getting around it.

Here is a fact: children grow up in a variety of circumstances. Some grow up with a mother and father, some with only a mother, some with only a father. Some have two mothers, some have two fathers. Some children grow up with a biological parent and a string of step parents, which I can't see as being in the best interest of the child (so much for the traditional heterosexual marriage being better for the child). Some kids get bounced back and forth from one parent to another. Some kids grow up with a grandparent or an aunt or uncle or even an unrelated guardian. Some kids get adopted by people who have no biological connection. Some kids never have a parent figure and live their lives in a kind of limbo.

One thing is sure, almost every child wants a parent who loves and support them.

I wish we could stop this stupid argument about which situation is better, because knowing whether one is better or another is worse is not going to change anything. So far the studies I've seen all say that divorce, gay parenting, single parenting are not necessarily going to keep kids from being successful adults. And it doesn't matter because gay people will still have kids, heterosexual couples will still get divorced, commitment challenged people will still continue to go through a string of partners thinking they will find the right one.

I have known children from all these types of home lives and more. The ones who have good strong relationships with their parent, regardless of their gender or relationship status or sexual orientation tend to do better than those who do not have a good relationship. I have seen kids of gay parents be totally successful in their lives and I have seen many kids with the traditional nuclear family who were completely miserable and struggled throughout their lives.

We need to be looking at the relationships kids have with their parents before we can really understand what makes for good child rearing.

Hey Brent....I'm straight but I'm gonna raise my kids to know that all ppl are equal, regardless of gender, race, political affiliation (I know that'll be tough lol), sexual orientation, etc. There is no such thing as "normal." Being gay is as normal as being straight & my children will be taught that too. My gay friends will more than likely babysit too! But hey....by all means, you go ahead & keep your kids in that little box you're raising them in. Check back with us in about 15yrs & let us know how well that worked out for you.....& them.

Being gay is normal for homosexuals just as is being straight is normal for heterosexuals the other way around is abnormal.

What is normal for one is not necessarily normal for another.

The difference is when reality bites you on the derriere - thousands of animal species (including man) have homosexuals so it can not be abnormal

She said "you can prove anything you want with research."

Yes, you can. But this statement goes both ways. The anti-gay rights groups do this exact thing all the time.

When I was younger there were times when I had found flyers in our neighborhood depicting the similarities between people of African descent and apes and then all the "research" they said that supported it. These items were left by white supremacists. It wasn't hard to see that it was a load of crap. The trick is to be able to sift through the crap.

you can prove anything you want with research

Almost. Depending on what side of the argument you're on, you can prove anything you want with biased research. Only the truth rests in an unbiased scientific search.

No, no one said anything about perverts. We're talking about parents.

The bible is an interesting book with a lot of stories. But it is not so unlike the weird white supremacists flyers I used to find in the neighborhood. Its stories are twisted and turned to support a specific opinion without a lot of consistency, so in my view it is not a credible source of any moral authority.

fusseltier admitted pervert... ridiculous ... its not normal to read the bible to extract only bigotry.

fusseltier

Isn't it amazing when science trumps religion! I bet that really burns your ass too huh?!

BTW....the last time I checked, the Bible said, Thou shall not Judge.....you must have missed that part though huh? Pick & choose, pick & choose.....now that's ridiculous!

David - the institution of marriage is NOT in the Bible, the Latin word is "Matrimony" which has a different root than the root of Marriage "Mas" meaning man's

Mas (Marriage) is a state institution that has legal principles attached to it like inheritance, partnership, successorship, etc.

"Matrimony" is a different thing; it has no legal rights attached to it

Our constitution can not recognize "Matrimonies" so we have "Marriage" - a civil institution that exists separately from Matrimony; it does not require you to have a religion nor a religious figure to perform it (IN fact religious figures have to have a law to allow them to be civil authorities - like notaries - to perform (sign the certificate) "Marriages"

Several Christian sects have mistranslated "Matrimony" as "Marriage" (in an anti-Catholic attempt to be better than catholics by not using Latin) And their followers want to inflict these mistranslations on a gullible public