I agree. It leaves the reader a little confused as to who the writer is mentioning in any particular paragraph. I had to go back to the top of the article to re-read the names of the individuals to get a sense of who he was talking about.

The quote was from the Delaware County Daily Times. The Ap on the other hand was unable to contact the family to verify.

I think most of the Associated Press should be fired. They are not reporters. It is quite simple.

I first heard this story from my best friend Micki who is the 1st cousin of the victom Gina and it sent more chills down my spine reading this patheticly cold and harsh report. These are two real people for whom unfortunately have no voice and lets please be a lil more sensitive to these girls and their families.

You can know about the depression and seek all the help on earth, but you cannot commit a person to treatment unless you can prove that they are a threat to themselves or others. It is very easy for a depressed person to "act" normal and cheerful.

That is probably not the case with these girls. They were under the age of 18 and something could have been done.

Juno, although I didn't concur with many of its attitudes, did in fact, deal with the consequences of teen pregnancy and the difficulties it often entails. Death from a suicide is essentially a death due to clinical depression. IF these children had died of cancer, would any of you laugh?

Teens didn't get pregnant from watching Juno-they got pregnant because they either wanted a baby, wanted to trap a boy with a baby, or weren't educated by family and the school in proper methods of birth control. That's like saying you're obese from watching someone else eat a Big Mac. These kids had serious mental/emotional problems, which has nothing to do with the pregnancy pact.

For me, a suicide pact is far more disturbing than planned teenage pregnancies.

they both are disturbing i agree, however the solution to every problem with a child seems to be a pill if they seek help. if not at a doctors request, at times a parent, because the parent can't deal with whatever. This i think all lies in how kids are brought up these days. Teens, as adults, look at 1 thing as the end of of the world, and go into a pity bag.There are lot of parents, who cant seem to teach their kids to "suck it up, life go's on." we over coddle our children, or let them run the streets, and miss out on the real issues of what is going on inside their heads. Like the mother who denies her child would do such a thing. My heart goes out to these parents and all, but let's face it, there was a problem. Kids dont just kill themselves because it's the "in thing to do", they do it because they dont know how to move past the problem they are facing mentally.

Some people maybe flipping in their seat over what i just said, that's fine, but it's also the truth. Who here has never ever given the thought of just saying to heck with it? Well what did you do, in the end? you may have had to force yourself to face the next day, over and over, even if you sought help from a doctor, still the event remains, you sucked it up, and kept going, despite the effort it took. to me killing yourself, is a selfish act. you take the feeling of yourself, over how others may be affected by your choice. Poor me.... well what about those you leave behind with your problem? What about the people that need to scoop you up off the ground, and so on? Those people that decide they want to kill themselves, should put the shoe on the other foot, and see the people who are affected by such an act, from the moegue, all the way down to the families affected. Maybe then, it might help them to think before doing whatever it is they were thinking of.

I have to agree 100% with you!! And for whoever this offends then you're the one who needs to sit down face reality an do some serious soul searching, Ur probably that teacher that suggested the child in your kinder garden or first grade class should be tested an medicated for ADD or ADHD!! Hello PEOPLE WHAT IN THE HELL ARE U THINKING!! An for u parents out there who agree with this "teachers advise" ur just as bad an in serious need of counseling an parenting advise!!

I say this because my younger bother, now 20 years old, was tested at age 3 an diagnosed at age 4 with ADHD!! His entire life has been TRIAL and ERROR with EVERY single medication possible for ADHA children and adolescents, and of course nothing worked. Some made him sick, some made him unresponsive, others made him sleep too much, others made him like a zombie, and some LITERALLY MADE HIM EVIL..... What does all this mean, "same thing I said the first time I heard the words from his teachers mouth," He was NEVER or EVER had ADHD!! He had 1 hell of a time growing up labeled as that kid or the problem child, never getting the attention he needed from teachers and staff, always being passed off to SPECIAL teachers and classes!! If something happened he was automaticly to blame!! Countless times i stood up for him and literally fought principals an staff an other students as well, because he WAS in the right!! I know my brother, I know when hes lying, I now that look in his eyes!!

He was still seeing doctors at the age of 18 and the day he turned 18 years old he went to a psychiatrist on his own terms wanting to know what was wrong with him why nothing ever works, why he was always angry and why he thought the things he did!! U know what he was told!!?? He was never ADHD and the medications had some sever adverse effects because he was taking some pretty serious medications that were to corrct or alter "A CHEMICAL IMBALANCE IN HIS BRAIN" that did not exist!!

Gee I wounder what happens next, of course it made himm irratable, angry, confused, tiered, MOODY ect ect ect........ The boy could hace Killed somebody an never knew why he did it.....

Do u people honestly think this is right????? Children are children, some more hyper than others and some are just a product of BAD PARENTING!! if parents would slow down an actually take the time to TEACH there children right from wrong, spent time with them, talked to them they wouldn't act out half as much... Same for those teachers if u have thoughts of medicating a kid YOU SERIOUSLY NEED TO FIND ANOTHER JOB, Or you could try a confrence with the parents, talk about the childs behavior and try to come to some kind of compromise about how to correct his/her behavior. Sometimes its even just a simple as a discapline issue at home, but as their teacher, that's part of your job, to befriend them, talk to them find out whats going on at home, CONFIRM WHAT THEY SAY, before you go and start pointing fingers a calling DHS!!

I doubt anything I have said will be taking seriously or even paid attention too but if it saves even one child the heartache an nonsense titling like my baby brother then maybe there's hope yet that these problems of suicide and COLUMNBINE SHOOTING could sees to exist... one could only hope and pray!!

I don't see suicide as a selfish act. I've always thought people who make that claim are -- perhaps unconsciously -- being manipulative. Imagine trying to belittle and shame someone who already feels so worthless that they are considering killing themselves. Tearing someone down is not the way to show support.

It's not about the people who are left behind. Talk about selfish! Maybe that total lack of validation is a big part of the reason a child thinks of suicide in the first place.

If your child talks of suicide, please don't try to make it all about you and your potential suffering.

Diane...I am not saying you say to the kid, that THEY are selfish. I am saying IT is a selfish act. I understand wanting to end it, but I also understand my actions, in anything I do, effect others. I say that because IMO the person cannot see past themselves, they are so engrossed with how THEY feel, they don't stop to think about the aftermath and how that would effect the ones they love. Being loving and understanding is the only way to go. If someone I loved committed suicide, it certainly wouldn't be about me. I would be devastated and I would be sad, but it would be ALL about the other person.

I myself know a girl who's brother committed suicide and she will be effected for the rest of her life. If a person commits suicide, they have ended their pain, the loved one's suffering is just beginning and they have to live with that for the rest of their life. To me, in certain situations, a person who knows they are loved, but do it anyway, committed a selfish act. Because it is NOT all about them. I am not saying THEY are selfish, I am saying SUICIDE is a selfish act.

Mary J 0604..."but I also understand my actions, in anything I do, effect others."

that's great, but the people who commit suicide probably don't understand this. If they did feel that their actions effected others they probably wouldn't feel so worthless and sad.

"they have ended their pain, the loved one's suffering"

again, they probably don't know that, a lot of people feel that they're actually making their loved one's lives better and that there will be no suffering.

I think suicide is more of an ignorant act rather than a selfish act..... which is why we need to tell our loved ones we love them and how much they mean to us every single day.

Diane - If suicide is not a selfish act then what is it? One is either selfish or selfless. Suicide is certainly not a selfless act; the only individual who is considered by suicide's first victim is the self. I am not being manipulative, sub-consciously or otherwise, when I say that suicide is an ultimately selfish act. As a suicide survivor, I own up to my selfishness. No one belittled, shamed, or tore me down, except me, before or after my suicide attempt. I was thoughtless, careless, reckless, and desperate.

What I did to my family and friends is inexcusable and there is no way to get around my selfishness. I did not want their validation or their love, all I wanted was for my pain to cease. Nothing else mattered but ending my pain. The doctors convinced my mother that I was not aware of what was going on around me and that she should go home and rest so she could be there for me when/if I woke up the next morning. I was aware of everything going on around me, but I was unable to move, to speak, or to open my eyes. One of my brothers sat by my bed for most of the night and he blamed himself. He begged God to keep me alive and in return, he would be a better person, he would change. They all blamed themselves for the choice I had made, never once did they blame me (in the 19 years since) or attempt to make it about them or their suffering. Of course, it is about the people left behind, they are the secondary (and involuntary) victims of suicide. The first victim is no longer around to receive any kind of help, but the secondary victims have to learn how to live through this tragedy.

Desperate acts are always done out of selfishness. This life is not all about our pain and the self, people who choose suicide do not understand that, or they just do not care. It took me 18 years to fully understand that my escape from pain does not trump the consequences my voluntary extermination inflicts upon other people. I got lucky when I survived my suicide attempt; I was given another chance to learn that lesson.

again, they probably don't know that, a lot of people feel that they're actually making their loved one's lives better and that there will be no suffering.

I think suicide is more of an ignorant act rather than a selfish act.....

In that case, yes, I agree. :o)

which is why we need to tell our loved ones we love them and how much they mean to us every single day.

I live by that rule. :o) Which is probably why my POV was leaning towards selfish act. Which is why I said in an earlier post, "To me, in certain situations, a person who knows they are loved, but do it anyway, committed a selfish act." Certain situations, not all. But either way, it is heartbreaking.

Remember that children of this age are fueled by emotions and sometimes the smallest event can put them over the edge. They are not mature enough to reason through an event such as suicide nor use logic to see it is not the answer to whatever is bothering them. I believe we need to be very vigilant with young teens and take them serious as sometimes we have a tendency to allow them too much freedom and with this they feel separated from family and lost. I found that my three at this age needed much more attention than K-6 and almost as much as a toddler. I believe they are building identities and when something goes awry they make huge mistakes in judgment.

js...You are absolutely right. :o) I agree.

Obviously, you DON'T understand depression and suicidal feelings as well as you think you do. If 2 people are close, and in the same place in their depression, then it might lead them to something like this. Maybe one of them DID reach out to the other, but she too had a bleak outlook, and it started the ball rolling for what eventually happened.If you reach out to someone, and they are coming from a place with no positive outlook, how are they going to help you?

Apparently this happens a lot in Japan.

I agree with acidrain.

It's extremely hard to talk to people who are depressed and suicidal.

They are convinced there really is no other way, and any little thing that goes wrong is intensified tenfold for them; making things worse.

The biggest problem is that most of them don't want to die; they want help. They want love. But they go to doctors or counselors, and they're alienated and sedated.

In some cases, depression is a chemical imbalance; but in most, it's because of trauma. Trauma they can't find a way to deal with. And medication won't cure mental barriers from a past trauma. I've personally endured 10 years of PTSD, coupled with horrific nightmares nightly. Nobody understood, and I always felt alone. Doctors never helped.

I've known many suicidal people...some, with help from their friends, got better...they're happy now, able to work past their sadness. The others will always be remembered...the best any of us can do for the ones that are alive and need help...we can try to understand what they go through. Empathy is our strongest weapon against suicides.

These are the quiet ones; the ones that don't always speak their mind. The misunderstood, the shunned of society. By being harsh with them only makes them more distrustful and bitter. You must help them with finding a reason to live- they don't care for themselves, but they oftentimes wouldn't want to hurt the ones they love.

These people can be extremely strong if given the chance. I know so many who have changed my life for the better because they stayed. We shouldn't give up on them because it's difficult to reach them.

Anathema ~ You are right about trauma being a main contributing factor for depression. Mental health professionals are too quick to dope a patient and then tell them everything will be better now without helping them through the trauma. At age 17 I was diagnosed with manic-depression (bipolar I) and PTSD. It is believed that trauma (physical or mental, good or bad) triggers the predisposition one has genetically for bipolar. The psychiatric staff diagnosed me, drugged me, gave me a self-help book about incest, rape, and sexual abuse, and sent me on my way. When I would try to talk about the trauma these professionals would change the subject because they were uncomfortable. Not one of them tried to find a professional who specialized in PTSD. At age 34 the one person who was willing to listen and help me through the entirety of the trauma I experienced, not just the recent trauma, diagnosed me with Chronic PTSD. Chronic PTSD occurs when one is repeatedly traumatized at different periods in their life. Medication did not work, and in fact increased my issues, because that is not what I needed, I needed someone to listen even when the subject matter was horribly uncomfortable for them.

You are also correct that these individuals do not care about themselves but they are not out to intentionally hurt the ones they love. Ending the suffering is all they care about because they cannot see further, where the pain no longer exists, and some of them know that the suffering will be life-long. Telling them that you understand what they are experiencing can back fire unless you first listen big, then clarify narrow, look wide and plan small.

Yes; the pain is what tore me apart, and often what blinds others that I knew.

Imagine being in complete agony every minute of the day, where mental pain translates into physical pain, it is so severe. Now imagine people that don't understand/ don't care slamming it down your throat that you're insane or sick, alienating you for trying to find someone who understands.

My nightmares were horrific; always manifestations of past traumatic experiences. I would relive every gruesome detail, coupled with the dream-like surrealism every time I closed my eyes. I often woke up covered in scratches and cuts, or someplace completely different from where I fell asleep. I was so scared to fall asleep, I soon became an insomniac.

The hallucinations due to lack of sleep made things even worse. I always felt like I just wanted to die. It was constant mental torture. Of course, when people see your arms covered in scars, they get scared. Mine weren't on purpose...but they didn't care to listen. They labeled me a freak. When I went to a counselor, he gave me a list of the things that may contribute to trauma; I had checked off most of them. When I started talking, I couldn't stop, I had pent all of it up for so long. His eyes grew to the size of saucers. He was frightened too, and that scared me.

I once went to the doctor, and after doing a checkup, suggested I go to a hospital; they couldn't believe I was still standing.

*sigh* It's always hard to share this with people; mostly because there are harsh and callous people out there that I know will never understand...but I feel this should be mentioned; alot of these comments here ask how they could do this kind of thing...

what would drive them to something that extreme...they say they should find help...but it's hard to find help when nobody is on your side. When they don't want you to get better; they just want you to keep your trauma out of their life.

What you said about empathizing can be dangerous, that's true. Not everyone is the same; so you can't treat everyone the same- you have to get to know who they are, from a deeper perspective than just an acquaintance. You can't just simply say "I know how you feel."

You have to genuinely understand their predicament and suggest better solutions to the problems that they're facing. And yes, LISTENING is probably the best thing you could do, if nothing else.

I know that's all I ever wanted, and just to get all that off your chest is therapeutical in itself.

Just by that simple gesture, it showed me that somebody actually cared about what I thought and felt.

It felt like I was human, and not the monster I thought I was.

I agree with most of this. I've always said that those who commit suicide are selfish in the fact that they have not considered the pain that those who love them will go through due to their actions. At the same time, it is important to recognize that these teenagers needed help they weren't getting. It is also important not to point fingers and placed blame on others, because even professional help may not have worked. Even if they were getting help, 16-year-olds are often not mature enough to accept the consequences of their actions or to realize the severity of their actions. I agree that parents should reinforce several times that suicide is NOT an option and things will get better. Everyone goes through hard times and we get through it. However, we all need help sometimes. I feel for the families and friends of these teenagers.

PW-

At the age of 16, having your boyfriend or anyone real close to you die IS the end of the world. I remember being 16 and so wrapped up in a guy. At that time in my life, I considered him "my everything." When we broke up, I was crushed and it affected me for many years, even though I had other relationships. At 16, you haven't experienced enough of life to make good rationalizations and judgments. It's very much living in the here and now and the what has already come along in your short life. The suicide was not the answer, but at that age, many times it feels like the only answer.

I have to wonder about the girls' parents. Especially the one whose boyfriend was killed. Did they talk to their daughter, get her professional help, reach out to her in every way even when she didn't want anyone reaching out to her? Like I said, to her his death was the end of her world. I hope the parents did everything and anything to be a strong, loving, understanding presence in her life at such a vulnerable time.

And as for the other girl who was showing signs of depression, this just goes to show that teenage depression is not something that will go away or the kids will grow out of. Yes, many teenagers exhibit withdrawn behaviors, but it isn't always "being a typical teenager." It is very real to them and parents really need to make extra efforts to reach them.

If mental health professionals are saying things like "this is the cowards way out" then they need to reconsider their career choices. For the person who suffers from depression self-worth is a huge part of it and often people who feel this way, feel as though they are doing their loved ones a favor. It is not selfishness. It's an inability to comprehend that their life has value to others when it is something they can't find inside themselves. It's so very sad that anyone should ever feel that way and it is insensitive as hell that anyone should call people who suffer this way, cowards.

sfs --

At the age of 16, having your boyfriend or anyone real close to you die IS the end of the world. I remember being 16 and so wrapped up in a guy.

Most adults don't remember that young people have a different perspective. When two people have such a wide difference in their concept of reality, it becomes very difficult to communicate.

Here is what I would suggest as a way to bridge the gap for the young person. Remember when you were 10 and something really bad happened? Maybe your best friend stopped playing with you and you were devastated. Now, at 16, it doesn't matter at all.

Obviously, the death of a boyfriend is an entirely different category of pain. But time will dull this pain also, as it does all pain. When you are 26, you will look back on it and be glad you chose to live. Glad you chose the senior prom, your first car, going to college, your first apartment, your first job, your wedding day.

For now, you have to choose to do things to support yourself, whether you feel like it or not. You have to keep busy, stay engaged with friends and family, and start something new in your life -- a new occupation, sport, hobby, whatever. Move yourself on, even though it doesn't feel like the right thing to do. Give it 30 days. Then re-evaluate.

It is not selfishness. It's an inability to comprehend that their life has value to others when it is something they can't find inside themselves.

Very well said, Eris.

And this is so often the case. And by calling them cowards or insensitive for feeling as they do only makes them worse.

To PW-667632:

Depression like that is a serious mental condition. If you are so depressed that you are considering suicide, you cannot rationalize and make decisions the same way you could if you did not have depression. When you have that condition, your perception of reality is completely altered, so it is impossible to try to put your feelings and situation into perspective. I don't think anyone really knows what they would do or how they would perceive things until they are actually in that state of mind. I've never considered suicide, but I do know it is a lot harder for me to think rationally and clearly when I'm depressed. I can't imagine what it was like for Vanessa and Gina.

What?! You make no sense at all. This has nothing to do with a god that probably doesn't exist. But nicely done with your crazy discussion.

what the f*** wat do u mean god doesnt exist who ever you r should get a reality check or read cuz if u dont believe in god then u dont no ur history.......!!!!!!!!

Religion is religion, it is his belief and it is completely irrelevant in this conversation. so one.. stfu. and 2, JJ333, if what i got from your text is correct, you are saying that you believe that it is the parents responsibility to of cheered the children up and that is so wrong. My girlfriend has attempted suicide 3 times each by over dose and of all of those times, her mom had absolutely no idea that she at that level of depression. Parents don't know all the time, exspecially with their teenagers. I dont think any one is to blame. Not even the teenagers themselfs. as some one already posted here "It is not selfishness. It's an inability to comprehend that their life has value to others when it is something they can't find inside themselves.". There is no one to blame.

Teenagers are teens and don't tell their parents anything other that what they want to tell them. Some parents do try to talk to their kids, but a lot are busy telling other people on the internet how they should be raising THEIR kids. How many of you parents know what music your kids are listening to? Have you ever showed them a book you read that you liked. Take a minute (or a day) and find out what they like to do. I grew up teaching myself guitar and bass. My dad thought music was stupid, and that musicans lived in junky apartments, and drove junky cars. (His exact words) We were never really close because I had a passion for music that he couldn't see or understand. We didn't have a lot to talk about. I often feel I raised myself more than he was involved in. My girlfriend on the other hand, also had a talent for music. Her parents got her a flute, she had lessons, went to the Conservatory of Music in Kansas City, graduated, and taught/ still teaches flute for about twenty five years or so. When we would visit her parents, the interaction between father/daughter was really nice. Something I had never really had. I'm good at music. Didn't play pro, but played the bar scene for thirty years. My dad never saw my play, and I never asked him, because I knew he wasn't interested, and didn't really approve of me playing in smokey bars with drunk people. This may sound extremely cold, but sometimes I miss my GF father more than mine. You fathers out there. READ THAT LAST SENTENCE BACK TO YOURSELF. I don't have kids. I love kids. Just never thought to because I was working in the day and playing music at night. That's not how to raise kids. Your life has to be about them.

i agree with u 100 percent......students should not base there high school year on "POPULARITY" cuz thatz wat half the time cause teens to get depressed......

Oh, I'm sure if they thought . . . 'hey, what about the conductor?' . . that would have stopped them!?!?!!? They were only thinking of themselves and their pain. Sort of what we all do, isn't it? If you can't or never walked in their shoes, how in the world can you give advise?

I totally agree with the comments that what you do in life effects everyone around you, postiviely or negatively. Again, at 16 you basically have a very small circle and world in making your decisions.

May their families find some peace some day.

ur a jackass......thats nothing to make a joke out off............wat if that happen to one of ur friends???

One of my friends did commit suicide in high school. He hung himself off his bunk bed with a belt. It was a very sad day. On a lighter note you need to get a sense of humor

Bravo, there IS someone with a brain on these newsweek boards.

Very well said man. And you are completely right. my girlfriend attempted suicide 3 times, and after each time her family kept f***ing with her over and over again the same stuff "if you kill yourself you hurt every one around you" and "it is a cowards way out" and every thing and that @!$%# just brought her down even more and made her feel useless and invaluable. The only way she was able to get back on to her feet were she is now was honistly me which was able to make her feel love and support. So yes, you are right. if any one is suffering from depression the best answer is friendship.

...yaaaahhhh

Nicely said. My sister-in-law committed suicide on Oct 23, 2008. I know exactly what you mean about feeling like you were kicked in the stomach and stabbed in the back.

My sister-in-law was one of my best friends and I live with the guilt of not being able to help her everyday. I watched her struggle for years with depression and no amount of medication could take it away. She was super hard on herself. I wish to this day I would have told her more often how much I loved her and how much she meant to me and my family. But I know it would have never changed the outcome of that night.

People who sit in judgement of others only make it harder for those who are hurting in this way to get help. I truly think that being there, really being there is much more important than calling someone selfish. Suicide stinks! It leaves a whole in the hearts and lives that are left behind, but I know my sister-in-law was in so much pain she could see no other way out. Mental illness is no different than cancer, AIDS or epilepsy. She was sick, and she died of her disease. But society will call her selfish and point the finger at her even in death.

When life gets far too painful some try or accomplish the act of suicide. There is no one guilty or responsible or even able to stop this if the person is serious. Only the person who is distressed knows why this act is of their choice. We should never blame or say the act is selfish, as we do not know what goes on in the suicidal person's mind. What we must do is continually show compassion and hope in some way we may be able to arrest the person's need to kill themselves.

Thank you. My heart just goes out to anyone who has to suffer with something like this, especially if it involves the death of a child. I just hope that one day we will turn the corner in the fight against mental illness so fewer families will be forced to endure this tragedy. Take care.

The point is that unpopularity doesn't mean depression, and popularity doesn't mean lack of depression. The two things are unrelated.

You'd think you suddenly jumped into a stephen king novel.

Depression does not have to be synonymous with insanity. There are certainly some insane people who are depressed.

As another poster pointed out, most of the responses here are cliches. Newsvine is probably a reasonably diverse group, so this is probably representative of the tools people have to deal with a loved one's depression. Obviously, we need better tools.

It sounds like they DID reach out to a peer, but they found each other, and it led to both their deaths. It's kind of a self-fulfilling prophesy; you reach out to someone, and they feel just as bad as you do. If you're already suffering from depression, you aren't going to say "Hmm, maybe something's wrong with this person, I should talk to someone else".

acidrain: Yes, I didn't view it that way. You're right. Clinical depression runs in my family, and you're absolutely right. I posted my comment based from emotion as opposed to logic. When a person is depressed in such a way, they are not thinking clearly anyway and feel miserable. The ones they reach out to (e.g. the case of another depressed peer/friend), may lead to their ultimate destruction. Thanks for posting.