What social responsibilities would those be AC?

Paying your taxes on time, not trying to blow-up the Pentagon, obeying the Illegal drug laws and Immigration Laws, supporting the US Constitution, just to name a few....

Unlike BHO, his family, and his close friends.........

Sounds more like responsibilities to the government. I thought you said social responsibilities?

Responsibility to society.

How cool would that be?

AC Robertson sounds like a real fascist. But AC demonstrates he really doesn't understand what the constitution is about. Following laws and government rules for the sake of obedience makes you no more than a bootlicker. Our constitution gives us the right to bear arms against a tyrannical government for a reason. Our declaration of Independence enumerates the fact that the people have the right to throw off their governments and establish new governments when needed and paying taxes to the criminals that are in power or obeying unconstitutional drug and immigration laws are issues far from whether a spanking is effective or whether it just creates more violent adults.

You mean like sex with prostitutes while wearing a diaper, or hitting on a member of the same sex while in a public bathroom?

Not instilling family values and social responsibilities makes them DEMOCRATS...... Ha! Ha!

As a lifelong Democrat and a tax-paying, law-abiding citizen who does not use drugs and who believes corporal punishment is sometimes necessary, I repudiate your claim. :P

Not instilling family values and social responsibilities makes them DEMOCRATS...... Ha! Ha!

AC, #2, Sprouting off about family values and social responsibilities and then not abiding by what you are sprouting off about, i.e. paying lip service only while not living up to those same family values and social responsibilities, makes them REPUBLICANS?....... Ha Ha haaaa......

I just pointed out a few of BHO's fine family and social values, that he, his family, and friends, do NOT live up to. Doing things that would have placed law abiding citizens in JAIL or deported.......

But hey, he is the BEST that the Democrats could come-up with..... But after WJC and Bush Jr almost anything would look good.....

After you have; adopted 3 children, paid a child's way through college, and served your country for 26+years. And obeyed the Laws of the USA, unlike many Democrat Leaders and others.... Then you can get back with me....... Ha! Ha!

Clark,

Do you mean. Cutting benefits to people who have paid and supported the US Government their entire life and are now facing health care cuts, so Illegals can receive FREE health care????????? I forget that Democrats have a different value system...... {Take from the people that work for the system, to give to those not willing to work....}

Jamey, You should not talk about Barney, he will get jealous and slap you.....

Yeah, some animals eat their young as well. Care to go that route?

Hate to tell you but the kids causing trouble at stores, malls and libraries are probably spanked kids. Aggression in action. Parents that parent don't usually let their kids run amok.

Kids causing trouble at those places are kids who have no fear of discipline from thier families. That is why they don't care if they misbehave. It is sad that as a parent of a preschooler and a baby, my students' parents ask me for advice on how to control their teenage sons - they didn't discipline that little children, now they can't! Time out only works if you can physically keep your child in the corner or chair, where ever, and rationalizing with a toddler is just plain dumb. Hitting and spanking are 2 different things - spanking is always on the butt - hitting, not ever referred to when explaining someone getting spanked. I was spanked - I was always given the opportunity to change my behavior first and told I would be spanked if I did not. I was spanked - I also love my parents who are very caring and wonderful!

Hate to tell you but the kids causing trouble at stores, malls and libraries are probably spanked kids. Aggression in action. Parents that parent don't usually let their kids run amok.

I beg to differ. Children whose parents spank generally know better than to cause trouble at stores, malls, libraries, and so on. They know what's going to happen if they do -- a spanking -- and they don't want it!

So instead of properly teaching kids moral values and instilling a sense of dignity in them, just beat the ever living &!@$ out of them until the submit? Sounds barbaric.

From a logical standpoint, a child who is afraid of getting spanked in reaction to something they did would either be more timid when they grow up, not taking any chances or risks because they have been "reprogrammed" to not upset their parents, or rather to realize if they do upset them they will be spanked or they view behaving badly as something that someone should be beaten for, not consciously, but sub-consciously, and when someone does something to them or spreads a lie or something else; typical high school behaviors, they choose the fight that person rather then tell them to stop. Behavioral modification like that doesn't dissipate with age.

Also while I realize that we are just animals on a base level, we are also one of the smartest animals on this rock. Doesn't say much for the species if we can't use that intelligence to better ourselves and be rid of some instinctual behaviors that could be and probably will be deemed abusive.

The first step to learning moral values is ... what?

Learning that your actions have consequences.

Making good choices leads to positive outcomes, and making negative choices leads to negative outcomes. What do you think that all discipline (including spanking!) is for? It provides the negative outcome required to discourage the preceding behavior!

That's the cornerstone of moral behavior, really.... the knowledge that your actions have consequences. Granted, empathy can augment this, once the child is old enough to have developed that trait. Most small children are extremely self-centered, though, and it takes awhile for them to grow out of it.

But suit yourself. Good luck trying to reason with a 4 year-old who is pitching a fit in a store that yelling, screaming, running, and making a mess bothers people, and that's why he should stop.

I wish you all the luck in the world, friend, because you're going to need it. ROFL.

Well said Elistra. You take over. I'm getting tired. LOL

This is where a good rewards vs risk system should be employed.

Let's say for the sake of argument that the child in question like Power Ranges suff. Let's also say that he or she is obsessed with the show and watches it everyday.

In this situation, you could use this to your advantage and tell him or her if they don't stop goofing off that you will not let them watch the show, or will not buy them those kind of toys for X amount of weeks/months.

But I can agree that some cases are too extreme, but spanking should only be used as a last resort when everything else has failed.

And to respond to your earlier statement Shepherd, I was using "humiliation" in a broad sense, not its literal and was responding to a post somewhere in that column that said that spanking was a form of humiliation as well.

As far as I am aware, no one on either side of my family as far back as I can, four generations, tell was ever spanked.

Denial of privileges, time-out, etc. doesn't work with all children in all instances. That's unfortunate, but it's the truth.

To me, "no spanking" makes about as much sense as "no time-out". Different kids and different situations require different tools, just like different homes and different home repair projects require different tools. You can't drive a nail with a wrench, and you can't screw something in with a hammer. On the whole, it's best to have a broad selection to choose from, so you'll always have at least one thing on hand that will adequately address the problem.

At least we have some common ground, though. lol.

I have to agree. When I did something disrespectful or wrong, my arse was whipped. It works!! It made me think of my actions before acting and the outcome of those actions. My teens get away with many things I got spanked for. They are disrespectful, self centered brats, as well as many of their friends! I just put one on the wall this weekend, doesn't do much. If I could beat some hiney (sense) into them I would. This is complete stupidity not to spank children. As far as bullying, bullies should be SPANKED to curb this aggression! Right from wrong is not learned on a wall.

StangSalie,

I am right there with you, I give my kids a good swat on the bum from time to time! There are so many out of control children these days, and I believe it is because parents have gone soft and they read into these studies and all the psycho-babble too much!

So you swat them from "time to time"? For any particular reason or just for kicks? If you read all of the posts on here it is obvious that 95% say they have veaten their kids. Yet, you all say that society is going to hell in a handbasket. I thought, according to you, that beating your kids was a good, positive thing and would right the wrongs of civilization. Which is it?

Arctic, you lost control of your children a long time ago. Beating them senseless now would do no good. They simply don't respect you and that's your fault.

BEATING your children is not the right thing to do. There's big difference in getting a spanking/whuppin and getting beat. A good whuppin ain't never hurt nobody. It tends to make you think twice before doing something wrong or stupid.

Don't worry about how many people think that you're horrible-look at all of the recommends clicked by your comment.

Whuppin/beating--it doesn't matter. You're just demonstrating your own ineffectiveness as an adult. You might not be horrible, but you are also not really in charge. The day will come when they can fight back. Then what do you do?

sms29s66, Give me a break! Ask my son how ineffective I am. My teenage son with good grades, member of the football & boxing team and such a respectful young man that I get compliments from teachers and neighbors about what a good kid he is. He's NOT nor has he ever been a bully. As a matter of fact, because he is a big guy, he has often helped little guys who have been picked on. I would say that whuppin his butt every once in a while was quite effective.

realistic, he probably would have been all those things without whuppin. My daughter is all those things and was not whupped! All I am trying to suggest is that true parenting (which is harder than brute force and may take longer) is far preferable than teaching by example that fists are more effective than reason. I don't think any of us who were spanked as kids "respected" our parents at the time. We were afraid.

Jamey- There is no need for sarcasm-parents that use spanking are not sadistic monsters that get a thrill from it, despite your inaccurate and unintelligent assumptions. It is based on my belief regarding parenting and that is all that I stated-MY OPINION. No one ever said you had to believe the same thing.

As for society going to hell in a handbasket-well yes, in laymans terms it is. If you don't believe it, then perhaps you should open your eyes. Are you really so naive to believe that society is static? Or maybe you believe that society has improved? The per capita murder rate in this country doubled between 1957 and 1992-the aggravated assault rate has gone from 60 per 100,000 in 1957 to OVER 440 per 100,000 by the middle of this decade. The prison population has nearly quadrupled between 1975 and 1992. There are dozens of empirical analyses that have confirmed that America's high rate of imprisonment has averted millions of serious crimes. Of course, that does not prove any cause-but just saying-the handbasket is not imaginary.

I really do not understand why people have such a problem with instilling a little fear into a child. There are many ways society works in the same manner-as mentioned above, the high imprisonment rate averts many crimes. How? People FEAR going to prison. Religion is another good example, using the fear of hell to thwart bad behavior. Tickets, D.U.I's, the court system, police, credit-all could be said to instill a certain amount of fear to prevent someone from doing the wrong thing. It is a tried and true concept.

If you are so concerned about the children of other people, there are many other things you could pointlessly run your mouth about online that actually are responsible for creating bullies and violent children. Such as, "passive parents" or "hands-off" parenting, media violence, parents that actually ABUSE their children by locking them up, starving them, and so forth. Stop picking on parents who care about what kind of adult their child will grow up to be and start worrying about all those that just don't because THEY are the ones responsible for the societal decline.

So you swat them from "time to time"? For any particular reason or just for kicks? If you read all of the posts on here it is obvious that 95% say they have veaten their kids. Yet, you all say that society is going to hell in a handbasket. I thought, according to you, that beating your kids was a good, positive thing and would right the wrongs of civilization. Which is it?

Uh...this makes no sense at all. First of all....you're saying because people 'spank' or 'whip' thier kids that means they have 'beaten' their children. A spanking is a far cry from a beating. If you don't believe me....have someone spank you....then have someone beat you....get my point?

Stang Salie, good point!

I am sick and tired of all these absolutes over this discussion when in any other discussion even the slightest distinction makes a difference.

I have not found that to be the case, at least as a blanket statement. Discipline, yes, violence, no.

Short and sweet but gets to the point Jeff.

I can remember when I was a kid and going into a store and seeing a kid getting spanked, with their pants down, and thinking that that kid did something wrong. I never thought that that kid was being beaten or abused.

As a child, I was spanked. I never beat my kids but I have spanked them when they truly needed it. Usually I take away their computer, Playstation, or TV privileges.

That kid turned out to be Charles Manson.

As a kid seeing other kids spanked-sometimes it seemed to be working for discipline-other times it clearly looked abusive.

Clearly JameyCarothers has no children and does not work with them. I would love to witness your respectful, rational interaction with a child who is defiant - it would be a good laugh!

Jamey is really stretching things here .. I think JC needs a good spanking. Charles Manson? Aminal parents eating their young...

This problem of the self-centered actually goes beyond not spanking. There are actually parents out there now who will defend every single bit of the self-centered, entitled attitudes-the narcissism of some of society is now approaching mania.

I agree-look at what happened in the case of Phoebe Prince. The mother of one of those monsters actually had the audacity to defend her daughter!! Whatever happened to teaching your children accountability?

Exactly. We need to find out the genders and we also need to find out how many of the kids that bully have a parent that bullies. I don't think that bullying is due to spanking. I think it is due to kids seeing their parent(s) being bullies and thinking that it is normal behavior.

Being a bully and clickish is natural and is called, Pecking Order, all species have them. The advantage is that we are human beings who can learn to curb these tendencies with proper discipline. SPANK them, make them show others respect, it must be demanded! Being on a time out doesn't teach them anything, restriction of tv, computer or games doesn't teach them anything, other than to wait the problem out. A good swat with a belt makes you think about it.

Arctic............I agree, but a belt is not necessary.

I agree that little boys are much more aggressive than girls by nature, but it doesn't mean that they will grow up to be aggressive people. This so-called study is a bunch of crap.

desbley, we had a four-year-old girl in the neighborhood when my daughter was about that age who was a bully. And I remember a girl in my neighborhood when I was a teenager--she came home from kindergarten and bragged to her mother about how good she had been that day--she hadn't choked anyone!

I disagree. I think this is violence against children that has been handed down from one generation to the next. I was never hit as a child, but that doesn't mean I wasn't disciplined. I never hit my own kids and I've never once had any regrets about that. I think parents who treat their children violently, react strongly to this because they want their own behavior justified. Nobody has to hurt a child physically. Sadly, a lot of parents choose to because it was done to them and because, it's so easy to do.

Spanking is not violence-it is supposed to be done calmly, without anger, and one good swat on the behind. Hitting a child out of frustration and anger, where one could easily get carried away-THAT is violence.

Disagree again. Who on earth would hit a child when they are not angry with them? I find that chilling, very disturbing and cruel beyond belief.

I am always so thankful for the parents I had when I read articles like this. They passed great parenting skills down to me, and I passed those skills down to my kids. None of us were hit; all of us are caring, hard working people. I am very happy that my kids don't have memories of me hitting them, and that I don't have memories of my parents hitting me.

1devon-

Were you an only child? It makes a difference in the parenting style. Are your kids teens that were not spanked? Mine are, I used timeouts and restriction........and they are completely disrespectful, self centered brats I wouldn't have dreamed of being at their age! Good luck to you, I now know the difference. They will never be as productive, community oriented, team players, or respectful of elders as my brothers and I are... whom were spanked.

Well good for you.

I am one of three. I was not an only child. Two of my children are grown and have left home. They are hard working and caring people. My husband and I never tolerated disrespect. Maybe you shouldn't either. It's sad that so many people really believe physical violence is so necessary when dealing with children. I didn't learn to hit kids, because I was not hit as a child. It's as simple as that.

Devon-

While I applaud your lack of physical disciplining of your child, and your parents lack of it on you-it really comes off like your saying your better then everyone else because you've never spanked your child. I've never spanked mine, either-but that doesn't mean I won't, if it means keepig them safe (repeadedly going out into the street-I had to swat my sisters butt once when she was little-for this same reason). The fact is, you can't just be black and white about this. beleive it or not, there ARE good reasons for a parent to swat a kid on the butt.it has nothing to do with excuses, or justifying behavior. Nothing.

I take a contrary view to yours, based on my own expereinces. I think kids now a days (I'm 26, just fyi) get away with WAY too much-like all these little brats on TV hitting their parents and calling them names. When I was a kid, when I stepped out of line, my grandmother went out to the willow tree and got a switch, and swat (my) a$$ good. I never bullied, was a strat A student, graduated High School six months early with collage a quarter done, and went on to get a vocational degree and am working on my Geology and Culteral Anthropology degrees, and also was legally ordained. I am a perfectly healthy, functioning member of society, and have a very happy, healthy girl.

My sister, on the other hand, caught hold of how to work "the system" when she was very young. She got suspecded from school several times for bullying, and it got so bad they had to swtch her school once. Finally my grandmother got fed up, and told her if she got sent home one more time, she was going to get a spanking. Well, my sister decided to tell the school authorities she was being "abused". Needless to say, beings as they were required to report this, they did. CPS came out and told my poor grandmother, who is one of the sweetest little old ladies ever, that if she ever spanked my sister again, she'd go to jail.

All these years later, my sister got knocked up at 17, has the most awful, mean kid you'll ever see, who never has cloths or toys or anything nice, she has a record for being a drug addict, steals money and stuff (she got arrested once for stealing movies out of her friend's parents house), and is just an awful person all around. I chalk this up to the differences in the discipline we received. And, as a note, all the grounding and privilege revocation for her didn't do diddly. She just stole what she wanted, snuck out at night, and was a demon child from hell.

You probably meant to write "Not spanking leads to bullying."

I was being sarcastic there, lol ;)

I can tell you why, too. Which is easier?

1) Simply recommending that the child be drugged.

2) Successfully convincing parents (who are already defensive because you're implying that there's something wrong with them and their little angel) that they need to radically alter their values, lifestyle, and childrearing practices, so that little Johnny will finally learn some discipline and self-control?

It's a shame, but that's pretty much how it is.

Soemtimes you need punishment for your actions. You can spank and talk too.

Hang it up. The child beaters will always look to justify their behavior no matter what it does to children. Picking out a highly sexual body part to hit repeatedly, and many people use belts, sticks, paddles, or any object they can grab, is not parenting, it's abuse. And it's so much easier than actual parenting. Discipline should be about guiding and teaching. Kids can most certainly be disciplined without being hit and hurt over, and over, and over again. I was disciplined, but never abused. I never hit my own children either, and I hope they never hit theirs. I don't understand why people who hurt kids, have kids.

Keav? It really IS possible to punish without pain. I see this constant belief that if kids aren't smacked around routinely, they are spoiled brats. I'm sorry but that just isn't the case. I see a lot of brats who are hit all the time. They ARE angry, aggressive and act out much more than children who are treated humanely by their families.

Um, ok first things first: spanking is not intended to inflict pain, it is intended for the child to understand what will happen when they misbehave. This prevents them from doing whatever they did wrong again, because they know what will happen.

Second, parents who swat their children on the rear with their hand are not "child beaters". I say if the kid isn't listening after you've made it clear that the behavior needs to stop, then it's time for a spanking.

No parent should use belts, sticks, and paddles, that is abuse. But the back of your hand??? And you people think that's abuse? That's mild. Hell, it would be a lot less worse than an object. Also, any parent who spanks their kids on a sexual body part needs to have their child taken away, because that is just dehumanizing.

Consider this: Maybe when the discipline isn't effective then the parents need to turn it up a notch with punishment(spanking).\

Spanking doesn't make kids bullies, or make them aggressive. I was swatted on the rear a few times as a child and guess what people? I TURNED OUT JUST @!$%#ING FINE!!! I'm not violent, not a bully, not aggressive, and I'd say I'm a decent person. If I wasn't spanked I would've ended up a spoiled brat. You know, like the annoying little screamers that you hear screeching bloody murder in the store or in public whose parents never taught their kids respect for authority.

There are plenty of people who were beaten severely who turned out just fine, Isis. That doesn't make it right. And the purpose of 'spanking' IS to physically hurt the child. You are like the rest who say kids who aren't hit are never taught right from wrong. I know that's simply not the case. You CAN teach without pain. You can also punish without pain.

We won't agree on this but in my experience, there is a huge difference between a child who behaves because they want to make the parent proud, and a child who behaves, when the parent is around, because they are afraid of getting hit. One genuinely has the respect of the parent, and one is soley fearful. As this article points out, you can only hold that fear over them for so long.

I am also not so sure how 'fine' victims of childhood violence really are.

Can only hold that fear for so long? I disagree.

What do you think religion and the concept of "hell" are for? To keep you afraid so you'll behave yourself...that seems to have held up pretty well.

Well, again, some people try to do the right thing because it feels good - it makes them feel proud - not out of a fear of hell. Wow...

Michael1601

In your traffic stop analogy, I'd be willing to bet if what you depict actually happened to you, you'd probably be a whole lot more careful about obeying ALL the traffic laws, wouldn't you. That's exactly how spanking works.

As to your memories and relationship with your mother, that's tough but I'd bet my dollor to your doughnut hole that spanking probably isn't the only thing she did to you. As to your destroyed self-esteem, since you know it's been damaged, I sure hope you're doing something active about rebuilding it. That's what an adult would do.

And then this thing about spanking not being discipline but punishment, what's your point? Sometimes children need discipline and sometimes they need punishment. As I see it, a spanking can be both rolled into one.

Cops do "spank" it's called tasering...

I never said kids that aren't hit aren't taught right from wrong, I just believe that spanking will enforce that if they do wrong then they will be punished.

I know plenty of people that were spanked and they obeyed their parents, and it wasn't because they were afraid. Even when they had been spanked before, they still wanted to make their mom and dad proud of them. Spanking shouldn't instill a permanent fear of the parents, like you believe. It should instill the knowlege of what misbehaving will lead to, after the child is given a warning.

And you better not be calling me a victim of childhood violence. You sure as hell better not be telling me that I didn't turn out fine because I DID.

What if, the next time you are caught breaking a minor traffic law, you are taken from your vehicle, forced to face the patrol car, and are then "spanked" by the officer, how would you feel??? Humiliated??? Angry??? Ashamed???

This sounds like a send-up for a porno, frankly.

How would I feel personally?

Well, seeing as I believe in monogamy, could the cop be my husband? ;)

*evil grin*

...

Now that I have your full (and no doubt horrified) attention, might I point out that some things are simply different for adults, and that being spanked is one of them? :P

devon,

WOW back at you-it must be nice to live in a world where despite the increasing incidence of crime one still believes in the innate goodness of mankind. In that kind of world, there would be no need for prison, laws, religion, or a justice system (all things that instill fear into people).

You're an idealist aren't you?

So smarty.. the only thing keeping you walking the straight and narrow is fear.. Fear of hell, fear of prison, fear of fines, tickets , going to jail... nice. You are incredibly annoying, you always have to have the last word, you are all smug and smarmy and if anyone disagrees with you, you have to belittle and insult them. Maybe those kids of yours aren't the only ones needing a few "love taps" . Good luck ,esp, with your "difficult son"

And lastly Smarty pants.. the name suits you. Because you've got sh*t for brains and a big, fat, pompous, self-righteous mouth.

Metal Guitarist

How about connecting the dots on your statement. How exactly does spanking lead to resentment of authority?

Spanking creates fear of authority, which later leads to resentment of the same.

You've just restated your previous entry. How does spanking create fear of authority? I can see why getting spanked by a capricious parent, for reasons that the child cannot fathom or because there are no reasons, would make a child fear the parent and that could transfer to authority figures. But then it's not the spanking that causes the fear. It's the unpredictability of the parent.

So what's your reasoning? Connect the dots please.

How old are you???????? This is so simple a chimp can understand it!

If a child is used to getting spanked over something trivial, they will not be as willing to come to their parents when there is a real problem later for fear that they will make the parents angry.

Spanking is used as a weapon of intimidation and benefits no one.

Used as you describe, I'd have to agree: Spanking should not be used as a weapon of intimidation. And thank you for explaining further your position. However, I suspect that most of us that advocate spanking a child, do not also advocate what you describe, though I can't speak for anyone but myself here.

Spanking should be used only in cases of signifcant and obvious misbehavior that the child understands is misbehavior. (First transgression is a mistake. Second transgression is misbehavior.) It should never be done in anger and the child should be made to understand, in terms the child will understand, what it has done to warrant the spanking. Under such restrictions, spanking will probably not harm the child but enhance the child's development into a relatively functional adult.

I never threatened to hit my kids and I never did hit them. I was not hit as a child so that was not a learned behavior for me. In fact, I was taught that hitting anyone, except in self defense was wrong, and hitting someone smaller was cowardly and indeed bullying. As a child and speaking for my kids, we KNEW no meant no. You really don't have to hit little kids. People simply choose to because it makes them feel vindicated.

1devon

Are you a certifed mind reader? If not, how can you possibly know what other people think or feel when they hit a child, or when they do anything else for that matter?

Because I know a lot of people who hit their kids.

1devon

You may know 10 or 100 or 1000 people who hit their kids. That's not sufficient to make "statements of fact" about everyone who hits their kids. Even so, unless you're a mind reader or a Vulcan, how do you know what the people you know who hit their kids are thinking when they hit their kids? You didn't really answer the question.

FOFL! No question! Spanked kids also have lower IQs.

Yeah I guess that's why I was able to graduate high school with damn good marks.

She probably still does...

Discipline does not include hitting.

It does in the trailer park.

There's a real belief by people who hurt their kids, that they can ONLY be disciplined - taught anything - through violence and pain.

ROFL! Dragonwagon5 : ) And oh so true!

Dragonwagon5

Just what is it about trailer parks that make this true? Maybe you could explain the "logic" behind your comment.

Good to see your beatings didn't stifle your desire to judge other people....

Beating is when you hit a child over and over, and leave marks and bruises. A tap on the bottom is harmless.

Spanking is not just a "tap". It involves brute force and usually gets out of control.

Good to see your beatings didn't stifle your desire to judge other people....

And just a bit up the page, what did you say in reference to discipline that includes spanking?

It does in the trailer park.

Wow. Hypocrite, much?

And a socioeconomic bigot, too. What a shame.

If it gets out of control then that parent needs to learn to control their reactions, and to give the child at least two warnings before giving them a swat.

Jesus, you people act like a swat on the rear is gonna kill the kid. They're not that fragile, so ease up on the babying and other discipline methods. Better yet, combine the discipline methods and spanking. Meaning, when discipline doesn't work, a spanking is in order.

Why do people who hit and hurt their kids, not admit that they are treating them with violence? The level of denial is astounding.
You ARE hitting them. You are hitting them with the purpose of inflicting pain. I'm sorry, but that is violence toward children.

1devon,

You are putting too much on this. A spanking is NOT violence toward children. You need to learn the difference.

I disagree. I'm sorry. You ARE HITTING THE CHILD. Many people hit them REPEATEDLY as they scream and cry in PAIN. And you're going to try to convince me that's not violence? I'm sorry, I think you guys are in denial. It's cruel, it's not necessary, and it's violent parental behavior.

Some children REPEATEDLY cry and scream when you tell them "no". Is that violence too?

When a child is crying and screaming during a spanking, it's not because they are in pain. That only lasts for a moment. They scream and cry to get you to stop. The only thing that's really hurt is the child's feelings.

1devon

O.K., so spanking is violence. It's violence of a controlled type that's being put to good use.

What's with this avoidance of violence you seem to have. This happens to be a very violent world. If you attempt to deny its existence, you're likely to walk right into it because you didn't acknowledge it was there.

I believe violence should not be used against kids. Imo, it's IS violence, it is wrong, and it is bullying behavior.

I know I'm in the minority on this. Our kids are still beaten with two foot long boards in many public school systems. I think that's a disgrace. Countries that protect kids, don't have the school shootings that we do.

And RW? I had a lot of friends who were hit. They WERE in PAIN. To say that it's not violent and it's not meant to hurt is again denial.

We'll agree to disagree. I know there is no getting people who hit kids to see that there is a non-violent way. Sad, but true.

1devon

You're copping out here. Violence and pain are a parts of life on so many levels from the microscopic to the galactic. Just because you're a human being doesn't exempt you. You may be an individual who has a very low tolerance for pain and violence of all kinds. (Since I don't know you at all, I can't really say.) That doesn't make violence and pain wrong or right. In fact, attempting to label violence and pain as wrong or right is a worthless pursuit. Violence and pain just exist as a part of being alive, with or without your accord. You can choose to some degree whether to participate in violence or not but in many cases, violence and the accompanying pain visits you and it usually does so without your consent.

Every behavior of which humans are capable has a time and a place under the sun when it is appropriate for its use; violence included. The fact that you speak in terms of absolutes, i.e. never hit a child, weakens your position as the only absolute is that there are no absolute...maybe.

Spanking is a violent action which teaches children to fear rather than trust authority.

1devon I have a little guy who would strongly disagree with you. We don't spank often at our house, and it's never more than a quick swat or two on the behind (usually to get the kids attention). When our son was 4 yrs old he was in preschool. A new child came into his class, and had some real behavioural issues. My son would tell me that this kid would randomly target other children and start hitting and kicking them, and that my son would sometimes hide under the table (the child was removed after about a week). My son was telling me how afraid he was of this kid and how terrible it was that this kid would hit him. Curious, as I'd recently been having a similar discussion about spanking with some friends, I pointed out to him that he gets spanked at home. His reply was "yeah mom, but you and dad don't HIT me". While there is certainly and unfortunately those who use "spanking" as an excuse to legally beat their children, not every family operates that way and not every child perceives it that way.

I never bullied either and I had parents who would NEVER have hit me with a belt or a spoon. I am so thankful for them! Especially when I see posts like this. I raised my kids without violence as well and they're not bullies either. There was a lot of communication, no violence.

Well, i was spanked as a child but never spooned. (thank god)

1devon

Did you ever stop to think that maybe you were an easy child to raise? If that was the case, your parents never needed to resort to VIOLENCE, as you call it. Do you think all children are as you may have been growing up; that is easy to raise, never needing more than a stern word or look to know they'd transgressed? Can you accept that maybe some children are difficult, perhaps very difficult to raise and NEED a taste of controlled VIOLENCE to get their attention and make them understand, at a subliminal level, that there can be PAINFUL consequences for their misdeeds?

I had a brother and a sister too. I also had three kids of my own. Some children are more challenging than others, for sure - but there's still no excuse to use violence against a child. And as Elistra pointed out, I tend to consider it a sexual assault due to the fact that it becomes sexual with many people when they reach adulthood. Awful....

1devon

It appears that you use your experience as a template for all of society. Your siblings and progeny are not a sufficient sample to create a firm basis by which to apply your position to all of society. You also seem to be mind reading again. The fact that you consider spanking a sexual assault does not make it so. And if people who are spanked as children incorporate that act into their sexual repertoire, by what right do you call it awful and by what means to you connect the two as cause and effect? And again, you take a position that incorporates an absolute: "...there's still no excuse to use violence against a child." Unless you've captured one of the rare exceptions, there are no absolutes.

I agree-Devon has proved over and over again on this discussion thread that he/she thinks in black and white terms. (in my opinion is a strong indicator of unintelligence)

Do you understand that many kids who are not hit, still grow up to learn right from wrong? You can teach without pain and violence. You really can. Do you know how many prisoners were hit as children? Almost all of them.

The thinking by the majority of people that if a kid isn't hit routinely, he/she is not disciplined is just...sick. I'm sorry, but most of the people who claim how controlled they are because they were hit as a kid, sound very aggressive to me. You all are so sure you're fine, but you don't sound it. Spanking isn't discipline, and discipline doesn't have to have anything to do with physical pain.

1devon, there is a difference between a spanking and causing physical pain. you seem to be having a hard time realizing this.

So you're saying that no physical pain is caused during spanking? Again, a horrible case of denial. The whole point of spanking is to physically HURT the young child. I realize what it is, do you? I don't think so.

Once again-making assumptions and only thinking in black and white Devon. YES, for some children, there is NO pain because all it takes is the equivalent of a love tap to get through to them.

Gently spank a child with q diaper on - there is NO physical sensation at all - just the emotional knowledge that the parent is REALLY angry. Which is USUALLY the reason for spanking - NOT physical harm- but reenforcement of lessons taught but ignored. Been spanked as a child- most times no pain involved - just the emphasis that the rules were to be obeyed. Every one of the self serving,uncivilized, uncaring and irresponsible people I have had the misfortune to deal with was a product of a parent who failed to discipline their child with more than a "time out". Fully 60 percent (and the most aberrant) were the poor, maltreated, self-serving and unrepentant children of psychologists who failed to train them in fear of "harming" them. As a result society has nothing but damaged good foisted upon it by psychologists who are projecting their own fears and angst and inability to deal with consequences of action upon a society which now must deal with generations of clowns unable to comprehend that one's actions have consequences deserved.