Standard practice for anyone that does not toe the line. Remove his ability to provide for hes family, denegrade the man and refuse to acknowledge the truth. the truth is that Medical pharms control the world of medicine and if a Dr oppose the Pharn he is in deep doodoo. We should all take whatever the pharms say is good and not look into the bad side effects, like kidney damage, blindness and or yeah harm the young and create lifetime issues because if is profitable to keep poisening the population. Also if the Drug creates another health issue so much the better, now they can dreate another drug to fight the problem created by the other drug and then a drug to fix the problem from the drug to fix the problem to fix the problem by the first drug. Anyone else see a pattern here?

This guy faked research, made money off of it, he is a scamer.

So I guess chemicals in our water supply, antibiotics in foods, dirty air, harsh household chemicals, and god knows what else has nothing to do with autism? Yeah, blame it on immunizations.

Wakefield faked research to support his claims. They actually founded that he not only manipulated, but outright faked the data from one of his 'studies'. This guy is dangerous because he gets people to buy into his nonsense. Wakefield should be charged with murder since his faked study data has led to children dieing from preventable diseases. Parents bought into his crap and did not get their children vaccinated. A number of these children have subsequently died from contracting one of these diseases (measles, mumps, rubella). I hope they nail his ass for practicing medicine without a license now that his license has been revoked.

Wakefield's accusations that the US Gov't has paid settlements to parents of children with autism as a result of his made up MMR-autism link is patently false. I hope the US gov't finds a way to prosecute him for making these false and irresponsible statement on the air. I also feel that that Matt Lauer and the Today show have acted irresponsibly by airing these unsupported claims. NBC does not realize the damage they are doing by airing this garbage. There are many parents who buy into any of these gov't conspiracy theories and will now not get their children needed vaccinations. It should be stressed that thimerosal has not been used by most vaccine manufacturers for many years since better alternatives became available.

Read the story of Morris Fishbein and Harry Hoxey.

We've been screwed since Fishbein.

Most of the autistic kids have lots of allergies...hmmm...wonder why? Maybe kids are getting too many vaccines too soon? There was a news story on AOL...A little girl was going to Europe with her parents and got 10 shots in one day and was autistic within the week, and the argument by the medical association is... BUT the shots save so many lives!!! Not as many lives as they've wrecked! Autism is 1 in 110 kids now. There must be some kind of correlation. This is all on the news. Also, check into the stories of how Motrin and the other pain medications (I don't think tylenol is included) can cause blindness or death. It's all on the internet. It is scary stuff.

Fraud in medical research is nothing new - see www.naturalnews.com/019353_medical_ethics_stem_cell_research.html . The sad thing is, *IF* there was any merit to this, that it will take years or confirmatory studies to refute the "bad taste" left in the mouth of the medical community.

Moral - Science is science; opinion and "belief" are opinion and "belief". Don't conflate the three.

Wakefield has no one to blame for his demise other than himself.

He is wrong, but he had far less influence than most doctors think. I may publish a manuscript about it. As far as I can tell, Wakefield had no significant effect at all on vaccination rates by objective evidence.

I think this is an overreaction. But Wakefield brought it on himself. He is hard to talk to, and won't discuss things intelligibly with other scientists. It's basic to science that you must be willing to consider the possibility that you are wrong and look at objective evidence.

That's the problem.

"They can't take away the fact I have a medical degree," he said.

Well, they COULD, but so far they just haven't. Keep it up, doc, and all bets are off.

Had-enough, it may well be a matter of multiple chemical assaults which may or may not include vaccinations. I know both my kids had very high fevers after each of their baby shots, something the doctors did NOT take seriously. (They are both on the spectrum now.) Of course it is likely that some people are born with a greater susceptibility than others, but the problem is that there's no way of knowing which children are in that category until it's too late. Hopefully someday we WILL be able to test for that.

MAW,

Was the person who wrote the story on AOL about the girl either a licensed physician or clinical psychologist? The diagnosis of autism cannot be made "within one week." I admit, I have not read the story (but would be interested to if you could provide the link) and am only responding to my understanding of it through your previous comment. The diagnosis of autism requires repeated visits with the child and family as well as the monitoring of the child's social, emotional, and intellectual progression over a period of time and in relation to other children his or her age.

It's a BIG DEAL to get your medical license yanked, and to get it revoked for unethical research/publications/possible conflict of interest is saying something. I personally fully support childhood vaccinations for ALL CHILDREN (unless contraindicated by a pre-existing MEDICAL condition, previous anaphylactic reaction, etc). Vaccinations have saved many many lives from completely PREVENTABLE childhood diseases. They have also reduced the number of children born from women who were exposed (usually unaware to the mother) to certain viruses during their pregnancy (Rubella, Varicella to name a few that are routinely vaccinated against). Vaccines have almost completely eradicated polio in developed countries and have eradicated smallpox worldwide (I think the last case was in the 1970s). Vaccines are good and the growing backlash against them is very concerning. I ask parents to make WELL-INFORMED decisions before neglecting vaccination based on flashy (and usually biased, opinionated, and not scientifically-sound) propaganda.

Js in SD,

It should be stressed that thimerosal has not been used by most vaccine manufacturers for many years since better alternatives became available.

They were forced to change because of safety concerns. They didn't just "change" because "better alternatives" came along. This is disengenuous and you know it.

Do you work in marketing? This statement reminds me of the BP executive I heard on TV yesterday morning. He was trying to put the dangerous chemicals they are using in attempting to contain the oil spill in a positive light by saying that he was "not going to use those dangerous alternatives".

Sly spinnster.

It's not that simple Reesa.

Robert,

Please enlighten us. I apologize if I have posted something scientifically or diagnostically inaccurate.

The issue is not the scientific or diagnostic accuracy in your post. It's the one sided simplicity. But you know this. Vaccines have a dark side and propaganda side.

Yes Robbie,

There are 2 sides to every story. Unfortunately, the scientific accuracy and proven medical benefits far out way the unproven propaganda from your dark side. If you have kids and they aren't vaccinated, keep them the hell away from me and my family and friends

Dr. Reesa,

Aren't you and your family vaccinated? So what's with the aversion? And don't you know what age groups are even "susceptible" for which diseases? I'm assuming you're an adult. Don't they teach you those types of stats and commons sense in medical school? Or do they make sure you perpetrate the propaganda through your practice?

If everyone in your family is vaccinated, then why would any of you feel the need to avoid the unvaccinated? If the vaccine works, then it works.

Well said. Matt is so pompous in my opinion, I used to like the man but over the years he has grown to be so full of himself... and we agree with the doctor and appreciate his courage for standing up for his beliefs and findings. WE agree with his findings.

That's the problem. Too many people are getting news from Facebook and doing their own "research" on the internet. There have been no studies that connect MMR to autism. None. The man is a quack, and as far as I am concerned, he is partially responsible for any deaths that occur because some easily confused and clearly misinformed parents refuse to vaccinate. Every dollar that goes to prove vaccines cause autism (after all the research that clearly shows it doesn't) is money that won't go to finding a real cure. The hero of the anti-vaccination movement is a fraud.

A large 12-year study of children in California between 1995 to 2007 refuted a link between autism and the mercury-based vaccine preservative thimerosal. It showed that autism cases continued to climb even after thimerosal was removed from childhood vaccines in 2001; if there was indeed a link, rates of kids with autism should have declined, researchers from the state Department of Public Health said.

But there were even more troubling aspects to Wakefield’s research. Brian Deer, a reporter for the Sunday Times in London, learned that Wakefield was paid hundreds of thousands of dollars to act as a medical expert in a class-action suit against the MMR manufacturers — and the doctor never disclosed that information. He had also paid children attending his child’s birthday party to act as a control group in his study.

It's a shame I have to waste space repeating what the morons ignored, but there it is. I wonder, does he have to give back the hundreds of thousand of dollars he was paid for smearing the MMR manufacturers if he admits that he is wrong and all the other studies that said he was wrong are correct? Boy, I guess we can't do that, so we must persist that "I'm right and the rest of the world is wrong'. Oh, to Susan Richey, here's one, the California Department of Public Health. Do the research on their research, report back.
Oh, wait, Wakefield can't be wrong, Jenny McCarthy is backing him. And we all know that if it comes down to celebrities or medical scientists, the celebrities win hands down because they get more press.

Steve, did it study the unvaccinated? How many?

Is there autism in the unvaccinated? At what rate.

Fortunately for us my son is very healthy brain-wise (an acclaimed attorney) but he did suffer a serious reaction from MMR when he was three years old. His temp wentup to 105 and he lost the hair on one side of his head. He didn't have a rash which would have been indicated if, as our Dr. first suspected, the virus had not been attenuated.

I think the jury is out on this matter. They say the rate of autism didn't go down after thermosol was removed. Well maybe it is the sensitive bodies response to the vaccine itself that is problematic for some. Viruses are just weird and one wonders if there is also an increase in autism among those who have had the Measles/Mumps in full glory.

Steve: Have you walked in Jenny McCarthy's shoes? It is a long lonely road. Celebrity or not, her child was severely hurt within hours of the injections. Too many stories with the same intense response and similar outcome.

It showed that autism cases continued to climb even after thimerosal was removed from childhood vaccines in 2001; if there was indeed a link, rates of kids with autism should have declined, researchers from the state Department of Public Health said.

That's pretty self explanatory. But you raise a very good point. If the same result was found, a continued rise in autism, among the unvaccinated, that would definitely be the final nail in Wakefield's coffin. That would prove, without a doubt, that some other factor is the cause. They SHOULD have incuded the unvaccinated just as a control group, like half the participants in blind drug studies, for example, are given sugar pills, and neither knows who gets what.

"They SHOULD have incuded the unvaccinated just as a control group, like half the participants in blind drug studies, for example, are given sugar pills, and neither knows who gets what."

But none of them have and that is what the fuss is all about.

If they did such a study, and it matched the California one, then what do they do? (Assuming of course that they don't accidentally discover an enviornmental cause during the study,)

Independent Thought Steve: Have you walked in Jenny McCarthy's shoes? It is a long lonely road. Celebrity or not, her child was severely hurt within hours of the injections. Too many stories with the same intense response and similar outcome.
I feel very sorry for Jenny and her child. But on the other hand, I can't say that she cannot be wrong, just because she is Jenny McCarthy any more than I would say I MUST be right because I'm me. Because I've been wrong even when I was absolutely sure I was right, and I'm not that vain to declare that I MUST be right.

There actually is a link being carefully shown between vaccination and autism. Only it is not the vaccination of the child, but of the mother.

This will out eventually.

"This will out eventually"? Like when? Why would there be a conspiracy regarding autism, by practically every "doctor" except one? How do you ignore the findings of all the other, large, statistically meaningful studies?

The Sarah Palin website is somewhere else. You should go there, you'll probably enjoy it a LOT.

It isn't a matter of a conspiracy. Doctors believe what they're taught, like anyone else. And it is hardly "all doctors but one". There are LOTS of doctors out there who take a biomedical approach to autism at least in terms of treatment. The bottom line is that nobody really KNOWS what causes autism. There are probably multiple causes. It isn't unreasonable to think there could be a link with the vaccination schedule at least in some susceptible children.

Aquatone, you misunderstood me. What I meant by "the truth will out" is that eventually, we will get the right answer. I did not mean that Wakefield was right.

But scientists who find they can reproduce autism (there are brain anatomy changes) in animals by vaccinating, infecting with a virus, injecting with double stranded DNA, or giving thalidomide on day 23 of gestation are cautious. Nobody wants to be accused of creating a scare like this.

That is what I consider the problem with knocking Wakefield so hard. It's like what happened to Pons and Fleischman for cold fusion. Yes, he is sticking to his guns when he should not. But when others see this, it makes them too cautious and then an explanation like this doesn't get heard and probably more kids are being made autistic.

Say what you mean.

But scientists who find they can reproduce autism (there are brain anatomy changes) in animals by vaccinating, infecting with a virus, injecting with double stranded DNA, or giving thalidomide on day 23 of gestation are cautious.

Have you seen these changes?

Steve, a big problem with that study is that thimerosal was NOT removed from vaccines in 2001. 2001 was when some vaccine manufacturers *started* making thimerosal free vaccines. No full-thimerosal vaccines were ever recalled or taken off the shelves, and they remained in use until at least 2004, and many people report 2006. Furthermore, soon after 2001, flu shots with the full amount of thimerosal were officially recommended for babies and all pregnant women. So even fetuses were being exposed. The earlier the exposure, the worse it is. Just last year, pregnant women were being injected with 50 mcg mercury, if they got both the seasonal flu and H1N1 vaccines.

Lots of money in vaccines as we have seen with the Flu "epidemic."

Lots of money can buy studes--even large 12 year ones.

I saw results tweaked at even one of our national labs to get the outcome that was desired.

I still say the jury is out until we know what does or doesn't cause autism.

I saw results tweaked at even one of our national labs to get the outcome that was desired.

Was it to try to provide an answer for a crisis that they couldn't pin a cause on (I'm thinking like the Legionnaire's Disease that had them pulling their hair out for a long time) or was it to sanction a drug for the Big Pharmaceuticals? (The latter would be a crime)

On an unrelated line, but brought up above, did they ever find out why that 'Flu Epidemic' killed so many people in Mexico, but only a handful of already extremely sick people in the USA? This was before the vaccine was available, so it wasn't because of our medical advantage in securing it. This question is not to make any backhanded point, if anybody knows the answer, I'd really like to know, it always bugged me. There was one death that was very close to me (geographically) but she had complications from another illness she was fighting.

Actuall it as a totally unrelate type of science but the lack of ethics in research is rampant. Look at the climate hooey that came out of East Anglia to support climate change--and reap lots of award money for the unethical cheaters who call themselves scientists.

The waste was watching Matt try to gain control and attention of the entire interview... GREAT DOCTOR.. WE APPRECIATE YOUR EFFORTS!!

DinW, there is certainly a genetic component to SOME forms of autism, but it is equally true that there is no such thing as a "genetic epidemic". Some environmental factor has obviously caused the tremendous increase in cases, even it isn't necessarily the vaccine.

The "genetic cause" is a distraction to the cause. It is promoted and supported by the pro mass vaccination group. There is no such thing as a genetic epidemic. It is biologically implausible. To the parents who have been duped by this distraction, you should know that it is SOMETHING in the environment that is triggering this. For some it IS vaccines. For other it may not be. It may be a combination of multiple environmental insults couples with susceptible individuals. No way to find out until after the fact.

Vaccines are NOT a neccesary part of life like most have been dogmatically and sytematically taught.

Prior to the fraudulent study Wakefield published in 1998, the UK had a 92 % innoculation rate and 56 cases of measles. By 2008, innoculation rates had dropped to 80%, and there were 1348 cases of measles. A 12% drop in innoculation resulted in almost 1300 cases of measles.

Oh yeah, with two confirmed deaths.

Meanwhile, every attempt to confirm this fraudulent study has failed, and places that have acted on it before confirmation (UK, California, Japan) had their autism rates continue rising just like before, without a blip of difference. It's not the vaccines.

And you can tell the parents of the dead children that vaccination isn't a necessary part of life.

I'll refer you to this post so you can turn that grin upside down.

http://www.hpa.org.uk/web/HPAweb&HPAwebStandard/HPAweb_C/1195733811885

How about this chart, John. It show how many measles deaths occured in the UK where these supposed "outbreaks" occured. In the 10 year vaccinating period before wakefield there were 18 deaths. From 1999-2008 there were 10 deaths. HMMM. Actually less deaths after wakefield's paper. What do you have to say about that?

You know what? if someone gets measles. They get immunity for life. The mother who acquires it naturally will pass on her antibodies to her baby(breastfeeding) for up to 18 months. She'll be lucky to get 6 months worth to her baby if she's been vaccinated. I wonder why that is?

Just based on that chart and three minutes with a pencil and scratch paper, the deaths prior to 1988 averaged just over 15 a year. After 1988, 1 and a half deaths on average.

Guess what happened in 1988?

...and I'm not John...

...and I'm not John...

Because, as I said, I "refer" you to this post. It was one already written.

This post is about wakefield's paper in 1998 and him supposedley causing deaths. So what happened in 1987? only 6 deaths? Why? No vaccine?

What is that death rate per population in the UK? .000001% I'm guessing the zeroes dont really matter. What was the medical status of those 6 those 16? Did they have compromised systems that they wouldn't have responded to vaccines in the first place. Why was the death rate so low when it was much higher in the earlier part of the century?

15 deaths per year *before* widespread vaccination.

1.5 deaths per year after. And even those deaths are complications from infections in prior years.

Read the footnotes on the chart. It doesn't help your case, it hurts it.

"All other measles deaths, since 1992, shown above are in older individuals and were caused by the late effects of measles. These infections were acquired during the 1980s or earlier, when epidemics of measles occurred."

Trying to fold the 15 deaths per year into the population at large is noted, however. Fifteen preventable deaths a year is pretty insignificant. Except to those 15 families, of course.

Vaccinations made a very visible difference, and anyone who doesn't notice that sharp decrease after vaccinations on the chart you provided is blind or willfully so.

Read the footnotes on the chart. It doesn't help your case, it hurts it. Trying to fold the 15 deaths per year into the population at large is noted, however. Fifteen preventable deaths a year is pretty insignificant. Except to those 15 families, of course.

If you're not immune compromised you may not need the MMR vaccine.

Vaccinations made a very visible difference, and anyone who doesn't notice that sharp decrease after vaccinations on the chart you provided is blind or willfully so.

How about the decades before vaccines arrived? What was the difference? Did those factors just dissappear because Mr. vaccine arrived to take all of the credit. No rates were steadily declining before vacccines. It's undeniable the reason why the death number was at 6 before vaccines were in vogue.

[[almost 1300 cases of measles. Oh yeah, with two confirmed deaths.]]

That means a tiny fraction of 1% (0.15%) of children who got measles died. We have no details, such as how long it took their parents to get them to the doctor. EVERYBODY used to get measles. When I was growing up, it was no big deal.

I would be very interested in the academic, professional, and personal (experiences with autism) backgrounds of the people on this forum (and in general) who feel strongly one way or the other on this issue. Let's do it!

For what purpose?

For the purpose of research of course! Just like MR. Wakefield. (I never thought of him as a real doctor, and now I can enjoy the fact he is no longer one!) If you support his research, then my simple inquiry shouldn't be anything to bat an eye at! Let's do it! I'll start:

BA Chemistry

MD

personal experience: both parents are clinical public school psychologists who have been in practice for 30 years.

Disclaimer: I do not have any personal experience with autism (i.e. I don't have children yet) and I voice my opinion from a solely scientific/medical/academic perspective. I have definitely been wrong in the past and am NOT trying to offend anyone or piss anyone off.

Your turn Robbie

Dr. Reesa,

For the purpose of research of course!

Newsvine research?

and I voice my opinion from a solely scientific/medical/academic perspective.

Well then, we can have a lot of fun. I love to have fun with the uncertainty in medicine and even "science". I put it in parenthesis because what some people THINK is science actually isn't science at all.

Are you a newbie to this debate? Are you looking to find some more questions? Or have you solidified your experience into hardcore beliefs and prejudices?

Studies have been done. There is no link.

Measles used to be a routine childhood disease. Complications were quite rare.

Studies have been done. There is no link.

Of the studies that have been done. The correct scientific study of including the unvaccinated has not been done. So to say that there is no link is disengenuous or blindly ignorant. The most you could honestly say is that you don't know.

Concerned - I know what you mean about the separation thing. When I get to the bottom of the non-homogenized organic crunchy peanut butter, there are no peanuts left, just lame creamy peanut butter. I feel slighted. I feel like I should sue someone. Someone is to blame! I WANT MONEY FOR MY PAIN! The big peanut butter companies must be at fault!

My how funny you are. Here's an idea.... Stop using Thimerosol! I must be brilliant! Oh wait, now look what that did to the profitability. We all know the primary concern is the bottom line.

We did stop using thimerosol.

There was no change in the rate of new diagnoses of autism.

In other words, what Doctor Whatever was saying was the cause of autism was removed from childhood vaccines, and the rate of diagnoses continued to increase as if nothing had changed at all.

He was wrong. Vaccinate your kids.

What if it isn't the thimerosol? What if its the vaccination schedule itself, including multiple vaccines simultaneously given to BABIES? Babies routinely get very sick and feverish after the vaccinations. That can't possibly be good for them.

I really hate posts like yours, when someone says "it's natural selection" or "survival of the fittest". Everyone is entitled to their opinion-it does not mean, as you so eloquently put it, that they have an idiot gene.

That's idiotic. I'm only 54 but almost everyone of my generation had measles at some time or other. It was almost unheard of for anyone to die of it.

An opinion is very different than a fact. You do get that, don't you Smarty_Pants? You do understand the difference, right? The scientific findings are that there is no connection between MMR and autism. That is the fact part. Get it? If one were to state that 1+1=3, that's the idiot part. Like saying that, despite all empirical evidence to the contrary, MMR causes autism. One cannot disagree with a fact and call it an opinion.

Your missing the point! Who funded the study that made the determination that there was no connection? Certain people will believe absolutely anything! This doctor is not alone in this belief, many doctors agree with him.

I really hate posts like yours, when someone says "it's natural selection" or "survival of the fittest". Everyone is entitled to their opinion-it does not mean, as you so eloquently put it, that they have an idiot gene.

Those who believe in the fallacy of the "science based medicine groupies" are elitists and have this philosophy of social darwinism. They believe in Neitchze's philosophy.

I am in my 60's and my gereration has measles, mumps, chickenpox and we are still here. It wasnot common to die from these CHILDHOOD diseases. These are very serious for adults but no so for the children. Murcury must be safe because it has been in shots for decades. If this "science" was used for tobacco, it would be taxed out of existance. OOOOPS the science the opposers to the good Dr are right, the tobacco actions are wrong. i smoked for 45 years and have no ill effects from it, and I dod not have the murcury based shots. Today's children haved no protection from and bug that may come around, too much protection from dirt and germs and childhood disease. Don't bring up Polio, different thing.

Ok, so you all survived mumps or rubella with no adverse events. What about the baby that was born deaf, mentally retarded, with many physical deformities, etc all because you and your germs got too close to a pregnant woman. I guess that doesn't matter because YOU are just fine. Vaccinations protect NOT just the person being vaccinated. THINK PEOPLE.

Perhaps we should just divide everyone up based on their vaccination views/status and let the ball roll. That would end the debate and make everyone happy

What about the baby that was born deaf, mentally retarded, with many physical deformities, etc all because you and your germs got too close to a pregnant woman.

Why didn't this imaginary woman get vaccinated?

[[What about the baby that was born deaf, mentally retarded, with many physical deformities, etc all because you and your germs got too close to a pregnant woman.]]]

You DO know that there are two types of "measles", correct? When I was in junior high in the late 1960s, the school sent a letter home saying that all girls who had never had German measles should be vaccinated to prevent birth defects in their future children. So they've known this for at least 40 years. Note that it wasn't necessary to vaccinate us as BABIES; they waited until we were much older and our bodies able to tolerate it without harm. These days, waiting until junior high might be too late, but you could certainly wait until the age of 8 or 9.

An opinion is very different than a fact. You do get that, don't you Smarty_Pants? You do understand the difference, right? The scientific findings are that there is no connection between MMR and autism. That is the fact part. Get it? If one were to state that 1+1=3, that's the idiot part. Like saying that, despite all empirical evidence to the contrary, MMR causes autism. One cannot disagree with a fact and call it an opinion.

Those who believe in the fallacy of the "science based medicine groupies" are elitists and have this philosophy of social darwinism. They believe in Neitchze's philosophy.

Why is it that people make assumptions? Here are two posts that were made in response to mine-both assuming that I do not believe in vaccines. I merely pointed out that I don't like it when people start screaming "it's natural selection". I just believe it is a very close minded and unintelligent thing to say. There are certainly other things to say that would be more constructive-you know, like actual facts, links, etc.

Pastol, wow, I feel attacked. Unfortunately for you, all you've done is to make an @$$ of yourself because I never stated where I stand on this subject. You do understand, Pastol, that there is a difference between reading and reading comprehension? My post was neutral. You do get that the opinion part, is that not vaccinating is "evolution, baby!", don't you?

The truth is, I feel very strongly that people SHOULD be vaccinated. I don't believe vaccinations cause autism-I have my own theory of what causes autism. However, I'm not going to run around like Chris here, flapping my gums that it's "evolution" and attacking anyone that disagrees with what I think. Like I said, it is much more constructive to put forth information rather than rant.

OomYaaqub

Are you serious? There are NOT "2 types of measles." The German Measles, of which you were referring, are also known as RUBELLA (the "R" part of MMR). It's a completely different disease. Science has come a long way since the vaccination guidelines you were familiar with in the 1960s. Please research your statements. If you want a reference for mine, here it is:

Cotran RS, Kumar V, Collins T. Pathologic Basis of Disease. Sixth Edition

you can also check here: http://search.barnesandnoble.com/Robbins-Pathologic-Basis-of-Disease/Ramzi-S-Cotran/e/9780721673356

I know that, for crying out loud. I was merely using the common terms as they were used when I was growing up. (When you're in your mid-fifties, sometimes you temporarily forget a particular word.) Frankly, I think YOU know that I knew that as well. You are nitpicking because you don't have a good argument. The point is that as long as a girl is exposed to rubella or vaccinated BEFORE she gets pregnant, there is very little risk. Why expose BABIES to unnecessary vaccinations when the risk of any serious harm is so low?

I agree...make an informed choice. It's your family, right?

WRONG. Suppose your child contracts whooping cough and passes it on to a baby that is too young for the vaccine. Suppose that baby dies. It's YOUR fault. As far as I am concerned, if an unvaccinated child comes down with a disease, the parent should be charged with child abuse. If the child dies, the parent should be charged with murder.

Chances are much greater that that baby will die for the HEB B vaccine, given at birth, rather than an unvaccinated child in its vicinity. If a baby is breastfed it will receive the moms immunity until the needles start poking again at two months.

The odd of dying of a HEB B vaccine are irrelevant to my point. By the way, I would like to see the source for those odds because I think you just made it up. Also, please give the source (scientific journals) that breast milk will protect a baby from whooping cough. Besides, some mothers can't breastfeed. If a baby dies because they have come into contact with your unvaccinated child, it will be YOUR fault, and as far as I am concerned, you should do jail time for it. The real problem is that you are not as smart as you think you are, and you don't know what the hell you are talking about.

Well the next time someone catches a cold after you sneeze and then dies of pneumonia, according to your statement you should be charged with murder and executed! Please move to a communist country, you will fit right in.

WRONG. Suppose your child contracts whooping cough and passes it on to a baby that is too young for the vaccine. Suppose that baby dies. It's YOUR fault. As far as I am concerned, if an unvaccinated child comes down with a disease, the parent should be charged with child abuse. If the child dies, the parent should be charged with murder.

You don't know much about the mechanism of action for pertussis vaccine do you, John?

What if a vaccinated child comes down with the disease and dies. Should the drug company be held liable for selling a faulty product?

Concerned: if my child dies because you made a stupid decision, then yes, it is YOUR fault. It's not communism, its personal responsibility, something that parents who choose not to vaccinate sadly lack. And no, if I get pneumonia, it is not my fault if someone else dies because I did not make a choice to not protect myself from a fully preventable disease. If you can't see the difference, I can't help you.

Robert= actually, I do know that someone who is unvaccinated can catch a disease from another person who is unvaccinated. Not a difficult concept. Do you understand???

And no, if I get pneumonia, it is not my fault if someone else dies because I did not make a choice to not protect myself from a fully preventable disease. If you can't see the difference, I can't help you.

You think YOU can prevent pneumonia by your vaccination choice?

Robert= actually, I do know that someone who is unvaccinated can catch a disease from another person who is unvaccinated. Not a difficult concept. Do you understand???

SO?? it's possible. So is getting vaccinated. The chance of vaccine failure is pretty good in some vaccines.

Did you know that the chance of dying from measles BEFORE vaccines came into play was very super duper rare?

No, I can't. That's why it's different than if I give someone measles because I am not vaccinated. I can't prevent pneumonia, I can prevent measles.

If a vaccine fails, that is not my fault. If I don't get my child vaccinated and he gives someone a disease, that is my fault.

How do you know you child doesn't "give someone disease" even though he/she is vaccinated? You obviously don't know how the pertussis vaccine works. Did you prophylatically give you child tylenol after of before their vaccines. You know to prevent fever?

Parents of autistic children are the stupidest people ever.

No, I can't. That's why it's different than if I give someone measles because I am not vaccinated. I can't prevent pneumonia, I can prevent measles.

If someone gets measles they are immune for life. It's better than a vaccine that fails and needs 3 or more boosters because it keeps failing. Death from measles is extremely rare even before vaccines.

Hay sus -

Parents of autistic children are the stupidest people ever.

Don't blame parent's for vaccinating. They only went on the information they had.

Instincts are bad for complex decision-making. Science is good for it.

And the science says there's no link between vaccines and autism, and that the risks in not vaccinating, to both your child and those around her, are far greater than the risks of vaccination.

You don't vaccinate your child, herd immunity is weakened, and you risk the life of someone else's child with a congenital immune disorder or a transplant. Your kid gets measles, which he'll shrug off, but in the process passes it on to that kid with the immune disorder who dies from it.

For people with weak immune systems, herd immunity - granted by vaccination - is the only defense against these diseases. You really want to kill someone else's kid because you listened to "instinct" over science?

You don't vaccinate your child, herd immunity is weakened, and you risk the life of someone else's child with a congenital immune disorder or a transplant. Your kid gets measles, which he'll shrug off, but in the process passes it on to that kid with the immune disorder who dies from it.

Oh I get it. We're not supposed to do what's best for OUR children. We're supposed to take the risk of vaccination for some HYPOTHETICAL child SOMEWHERE.

I see Mr. Genius. We're all stupid and you've figured it out. Could you please give us a peer-reviewed source of the children who don't respond to each individual vaccine so I'll know which one I'll need to get to save the hypothetical child 50 states away from me. And then could you please provide the double blinded placebo(no vaccine) study that show that high vaccine rates saves this hypothetical child.

Is that unreasonable to ask, MR. Parrot of propaganda.

Could you then write us an essay on the psychology of altruism?

Haven't you noticed?

The risks of vaccinating your child are, for your child, far less than the risks of not. This is what the incredible bulk of the science says.

In vaccinating your child, you're also helping to maintain the herd immunity required by people with weak immune systems - I promise, if your kid's in school, there's one in their grade level - to survive.

Vaccinating your kids is better for them AND protects other kids.

I promise, if your kid's in school, there's one in their grade level - to survive.

really? If you're so familiar with the peer review then you should be able to answer the above questions.

I promise, there's one in every school NOT vaccinated OR the vaccine FAILED . Give me the peer review that shows all the deaths and the vaccine status.

You opened up a can of unscientific worms.

Trailfoot

Instincts are bad for complex decision-making. Science is good for it.

And the science says there's no link between vaccines and autism, and that the risks in not vaccinating, to both your child and those around her, are far greater than the risks of vaccination.

You don't vaccinate your child, herd immunity is weakened, and you risk the life of someone else's child with a congenital immune disorder or a transplant. Your kid gets measles, which he'll shrug off, but in the process passes it on to that kid with the immune disorder who dies from it.

For people with weak immune systems, herd immunity - granted by vaccination - is the only defense against these diseases. You really want to kill someone else's kid because you listened to "instinct" over science?

You need another science lesson- you failed to realize, or failed to note, that if a child is given a live oral vaccine, they can also infect anyone they come into casual contact with who is immuno-comprimised.

Live polio vaccine=polio for those with cancer, etc....

Brush up on your science before accusing people of using bad instincts.

Instincts are bad for complex decision-making. Science is good for it.

This is a very immature statement. Decision making in this context involves values, morals, and ethics. Science doesn't make decisions. People do.

Uncontrolled "science" is what HITLER had the NAZIS doing. Great science, bad ethics.

If you're unconsciously letting a scientist or group of scientists make a decision for you, you might just want to know what their values and ideals are. It might not line up with yours. Or again it just might.

I don't know about you JohnC-but I haven't heard of any epidemic developing because a select few of parents didn't vaccinate their children. You can come up with any number of hypothetical situations until you're blue in the face-but it has never happened.

As for someone being held responsible for transmitting a vaccine preventable disease-that is just a ludicrous statement and it could never hold up in a court. There is no possible way, no technology available to us to determine that someone contracted a disease from some specific person.

I support vaccinations-I believe this doctor is either a quack or he has some other agenda-but I'm not going to go around on Newsvine harrassing people that don't agree with me. If you don't agree with them, rather than attacking them, why don't you put forth some useful information?

Robbie, My best friend's dad was the one who "invented" (a commonly understood for the haters out there) the pertussis vaccine. He didn't just go into the lab one day and make magic. It took years of hard work and sacrifice on many many levels, and thanks to him, the rate of kids contracting the whooping cough is significantly lower that it was before the vaccine.

JohnC, Jesus, Trailfoot: You guys have great posts. Keep up the good work:)

Dr. Reesa,

The one that also killed a lot of people, or the one they developed later because of the safety concerns but doesn't work very well?

That's absurd. For starters, you don't have to go back 100 years. There are way more cases today than there were even 20 or 30 years ago.

Wrong. The vaccination schedule has changed drastically since even one generation ago.

first shot was polio in the early 1950's, there was a real need. Polio was and is not a choldhood disease, John, if you inject your child with a disease and he or she gets ill and dies should you be charged with murder because you put a toxin in your child? The healthiest children I see today are the ones that play in the dirt and actually might eat some mud pie (not chocolate). Too much "protection" is as bad or worst than not giving shots to line the pocket of the Pharms that make $$$$$ off your child's pain and shot related illness. I have lived a good life and continue to do so by refusing to take what the Pharm Dr tells me to do. Read up and study and make an intelligent decision re: your children's health. Toxins are not a good choice.

Vaccinate your kids...pure and simple. It's your obligation to your community. If some of these nutcase parents had their way, no one would be vaccinated and diseases that once wreaked such havoc will return.

"The man who speaks to you of sacrifice, speaks of slaves and masters. And intends to be the master." - Ayn Rand

I was 9 years old before my first shot (polio) and my father was a DR. He say no need to inject poison into the bodies of children if not needed. Amazing the medical doctors in the past actually thought of the patient and not the pharm first.

Oh, great. Now some idiot has brought in Ayn Rand. Ayn Rand wrote novels people, and they weren't very good. She was, herself, the opposite of her heroes. She was a woman who made it because she had strong friends in big bureaucracy universities. She had no clue about economics, and Agatha Christie had a better grasp of human nature than Ayn Rand.

Atlas Shrugged is drivel.

There have been no studies that connect MMR to autism. None. The man is a quack, and as far as I am concerned, he is partially responsible for any deaths that occur because some easily confused and clearly misinformed parents refuse to vaccinate.

How many deaths occured, John. Tell us. Do you even know?

We won't know for years. That is the point. But I do know there have been recent outbreaks of diseases that we have vaccines for. Google it. I know you people love the internet.

http://www.hpa.org.uk/web/HPAweb&HPAwebStandard/HPAweb_C/1195733811885

How about this chart, John. It show how many measles deaths occured in the UK where these supposed "outbreaks" occured. In the 10 year vaccinating period before wakefield there were 18 deaths. From 1999-2008 there were 10 deaths. HMMM. Actually less deaths after wakefield's paper. What do you have to say about that?

You know what? if someone gets measles. They get immunity for life. The mother who acquires it naturally will pass on her antibodies to her baby(breastfeeding) for up to 18 months. She'll be lucky to get 6 months worth to her baby if she's been vaccinated. I wonder why that is?

John?

John?

I guess angry ignorant "everybody must vaccinate to protect my child or I'll sue" man went home angry.

I know hundreds of people who didn't vaccinate. We didn't vaccinate and Autism not ONCE crossed our mind in the decision not to. I'd barely even heard of Wakefield. I also don't keep my children holed up in my house because I'm afraid of germs and viruses.

Thank you Elizabeth. I have a 5 year old who is "high functioning" autistic and my 2 year old daughter was just tested 2 weeks ago with symptoms pointing the same way. Making an informed choice is great! However jumping on conspiracy theories doesn't solve this issue! This Doctor gave parents a reason to blame someone other than their genetics/environment as to why their child is on spectrum, and if history is any indicator we all know that if we can point our finger at anyone other than ourselves we will do so!

No one so far has mentioned the fact that his "study" was 12 kids! That isn't a study! They have attempted to recreate the outcome MANY times and everytime it has come back invalid.

In my opinion the rise in autism is due to a lot of things. They lump many kids into autism that used to not be autistic in the past. Everything from kids with ADD/ADHD symptoms to kids with mild retardation have been lumped into "spectrum". That is really the issue there are symptoms but they are very generalized. You can have one kid that doesn't like being touched, spins in circles, reacts negatively to noises, rocks in the corner and refuses to talk be autistic, and a kid who doesn't make eye contact and tends to play by himself instead of socially be labeled as well. The only good thing labels do is they enable you to get treatment (if your community offers such), and help in education.

Babies do not get vaccinated until two months and are not fully vaccinated for several years. If someone with measles came into contact with my baby right now, he could get measles. I intend to vaccinate, and I resent people who make "choices" that put my child or their own children at risk.

you need to get ALL of the facts straight.....You desperately need to read HOUSE RULES by Jodi Picoult. The book deals with autism and is so enlightening. I never knew what our government was really up to until i read this book.

Educate yourself.

I don't make decisions about my child's health based on Jodi Picoult books.

Im not asking you to base a decision on her book. JUst read about it. You will understand a great deal more about vaccines

My how much time you have on your hands! Exactly how much "research" have you done exactly? Got mercury? It's is so very healthy for you! Not! Remove the mercury and problem is solved!

Babies do not get vaccinated until two months and are not fully vaccinated for several years. If someone with measles came into contact with my baby right now, he could get measles. I intend to vaccinate, and I resent people who make "choices" that put my child or their own children at risk.

The fear and ignorance runs deep. How old is your child? Do you even know the statistics on measles?

Much deeper than that. Autism is still on the rise and MOST vaccines are now mercury free.

Robert: People like you are DANGEROUS. Fine-take any disease..measles, whooping cough, mumps, polio. I don't want my child exposed.I don't respect you or your so called choices because you are not putting your health on the line. It's the health of others that you are risking.

.I don't respect you or your so called choices because you are not putting your health on the line. It's the health of others that you are risking.

The health of others? really? The others put their faith in a syringe. That god should protect them. They shouldn't have to worry about me. If they are then they should take 10 doses or 10,000 doses. It's safe right? It won't hurt? There's no downside.

Babies get the HepB vaccine at 1 day old. Not all the thermerisol is out of the vaccines. Oh, by the way, maybe the kids just get too many vaccines too soon?

Where do you live that they get vaccinated at 1day old? My children were not vaccinated for HepB until they were a year old and that was the standard schedule.

USA before they leave the hospital. It was a political decision.

Natedom,

Check the babies records. Probably got it after birth.

Nope, they got their first Hep shots at 12 months old, another a month later and the final one six months after that. They did not receive any immunizations while they were still in the hospital, their first immunizations began at their 2 month visit.

where are you from? Where I live only healthcare workers and high risk individuals get the hepB vaccine.

I live in MN and all children, unless their parents choose not to, are vaccinated against Hep A and B, so are our healthcare officials, those working in the DOC and a host of others. In fact, the company I work for offers both vaccines and we are in the hospitality industry. You can be exposed in a myriad of ways.

Are you really using a fiction novel as your basis for what is and isn't really happening? I understand that research is done for a book, but often, the truth is stretched and sensationalized to sell the book. After all, she is an author looking to sell copies.

I have a brother that is autistic, his autism has been linked to lead poisoning, how many of these children lived in older houses that were being remodeled? There are a lot of possible links as to what could cause autism, to not vaccinate your children is taking a lot of unnecessary risks with your children's life.

There is still thimerosal in some injections however though not necessarily vaccinations according to my dermatologist.

First of all, I don't take parenting advice from any one who chooses not to vaccinate. Period. You have proven that you have bad judgment.

Second, you are not informed. If you were, you would know that there is not a dispute in the medical community about vaccines. The evidence overwhelmingly supports vaccination. So don't kid yourself about making an "informed" decision. It is a stupid decision based on your own hubris. You think you know better. You don't.

Third, I resent being told that I should stay in the house for two months because some irresponsible people choose not to do the right thing and vaccinate their children. In addition, I can't breastfeed, so even if what you said about breast milk were true (which it is not), your point is moot. Besides, my child will not be fully vaccinated for years. Just how long should I stay in the house?

Finally, I have read about the subject. I have not found one reputable scientist or doctor who recommends not to vaccinate.

And you have summed up the issue in a nutshell when you said:"you haven't had years of parenting wisdom to make a noteworthy opinion". It's not an opinion. It's fact. Vaccinations save lives and prevent illness. It's not up for debate. It's settled. You seem to think that you are on the same level as a doctor or scientist at the CDC because you were able to make a baby. You're not.

Am I aggressive? Yes, you people make me angry. You put my child at risk. Like I said before, if your child gets sick, I hope you are charged with child abuse. If, God forbid, he or she dies, I hope you are charged with murder.

John:

Am I aggressive? Yes, you people make me angry.

Which clouds your judgement and reasoning.

if your child gets sick, I hope you are charged with child abuse. If, God forbid, he or she dies, I hope you are charged with murder.

Which echoes the sentiments of the so called "science based" crowd. It doesn't sound too scientific to me.

my baby got whooping cough at 6 weeks,and went through a couple of weeks of suffering,thanks to selfish people like this doctor.He got the whooping cough from a baby clinic where I took him for his checkup.I never attended a baby clinic again.

REad up on pertusiss. You're speaking from ignorance. The vaccine does not prevent spread. Sorry. You should know how it works before you start making ignorant judement calls and blaming others. It is just as likely a vaccinated person's "spread" pertussis.

Wikipedia is not a credible source. It is an interesting place to visit, but I would not advise anyone to stake his or her life or the lives of their children on anything posted there.

+`Humans will never be all-knowing that is left to the power of God. However, in the name of goodness good people will always search for solutions that will help others. It is just what our species instinctively does; like it or not. Dr. W, on the other hand, has used this scientific platform to enrich himself at the expense of others. He should not be allowed to gain further profit from his misdeeds. Any further money he collects from his fiasco should be contributed to the true scientists that are truly searching for answers which will help others.

Be well, and do good things...like vaccinating your children!

Justasneezeaway, you could also go by the handle "justaplanerideaway". It makes for a good propaganda visual.