“It just would have added to the pain of what is already a difficult decision,” she said later.

Pain? How about the pain of the one being murdered?

Shhhhhh, they're not supposed to be real.

Choose life! Please!

If I don't look at the screen, I can pretend it isn't really a life in there!

So a child who has been raped by a family member has to be subjected to this? It's sick. Whoever thought that one up should have been aborted.

This whole thing is a clear violation of women's rights. The public nor the government has any business making decisions on what should happen between a patient and a doctor. I hope to see this hit the Supreme Court and get knocked down. One day it will.

It figures it would happen in those states anyway. They rank among the lowest on the Most Educated States Index.

These women should be making an INFORMED decision. That means seeing what they are having removed. If they are satisfied that they are doing the right thing and doing nothing wrong then that shouldn't bother them. The people who this will bother is people who want to be in DENIAL because they feel they may be doing something wrong.

ms: I suggest you take a look at this photo, and tell me what sort of "life" this child would have.

http://www.radiologycases.com/index.php/radiologycases/article/viewArticle/271

What real good would it do to show a woman photos like this and then expect her to carry it to term? Or is it just the use of the handy tool of guilt that it is your true goal?

Eris. I am generally against abortion. However, no, a woman raped by a family member should of course not be subjected to this. She should receive medical care and counseling paid for by the government and the perpetrator should receive what he deserves as well. These special cases are not what I'm talking about in my arguments against the procedure.

However, no, a woman raped by a family member should of course not be subjected to this. She should receive medical care and counseling paid for by the government and the perpetrator

Robert I respect your opinion on this but this is what happens when the state is allowed into the doctor's office and exactly why it is wrong. Where do they draw the line? Te lines keep getting bigger and bigger depending on OTHER people's opinions. This is a personal decision and one that should not be up for public debate. We don't know what is going on in those women's lives. It's not our business.

It's barbaric. It's not okay to do this to any woman.

How would you feel if when you get older and are unable to have sex if they pushed for a law ending Viagra for men stating that sex should only be for procreation.

So you had to take a sperm count before you could even be considered and if you don't hit the required number you just go without.

How would you feel about the government deciding how many kids you can have or mandating a Vasectomy if you have no kids by a certain age?

These women are being treated like state property and these actions are cruel and communist.

Here comes the religious right again!! They will NEVER let us alone, respect OUR wishes or even give us FREEDOM from their views. So why don't we tax the heck out of the churches??

I'm against the state intruding into lives. My argument here is that there be intervention to save one. I understand that you want to spare these women in a horrible situation from suffering. It is a very difficult situation. It would be nice if all these pregnancies were avoided through contraception. We are stuck with these decisions and they do entail some very unpleasant consequences. Life does that. I don't relish the notion that these poor women go through this, I wish it weren't so. We have some very difficult decision to make. I don't think pretending that the life doesn't exist is a viable option. I don't like it. It's just the way it is.

grunt

Why are you bringing religion into it? There is no mention of any church in the article. A sonogram is a medical test, used for a whole range of reasons.

Why would you deny a woman the right to such a diagnostic procedure?

Forcing a woman to undergo a medical procedure against her will is assault and violates medical ethics guidelines. The law is bloody ridiculous. If people want to see what their fetus looks like all they have to do is google pre-natal development. The vast majority of abortions take place in the first eight weeks when the embryo looks more like a jellybean than anything else anyway, so all it does is force women to pay for a procedure they didn't want. It makes more sense to demand a smoker have an x-ray of his lungs before they buy each pack of cigarettes than it does to force a woman to have an ultrasound before an abortion.

Robert, it would be nice if all of these pregnancies were avoided through contraception, but the anti-choice crowd is just as virulent against birth control and sex education as they are abortion! This has nothing to do with respect for life. If anti-choicers actually gave a damn about women and about preventing pregnancy, they would be in full support of birth control, sex, ed, etc. But they aren't, so all of their "this is about life" arguments ring pretty damn hollow.

I'm against the state intruding into lives. My argument here is that there be intervention to save one. I understand that you want to spare these women in a horrible situation from suffering. It is a very difficult situation. It would be nice if all these pregnancies were avoided through contraception.

These same people fight against the morning after pill. They fight against women's rights to even protect themselves.

We are stuck with these decisions and they do entail some very unpleasant consequences.

No we are not. You're not the one involved and neither am I. This does not concern you or me or the government.

Life does that. I don't relish the notion that these poor women go through this, I wish it weren't so. We have some very difficult decision to make. I don't think pretending that the life doesn't exist is a viable option. I don't like it. It's just the way it is.

Again with the we.... How is this your business? It isn't. Is it our job to go into your personal life and make sure you are making all the morally sound decisions "we" feel you should?

Since when was communism okay in this country and are we really going back to the days when we treated people like property?

Is killing an unborn baby murder? Is terminating the life of a child morally acceptable? There are exceptions where abortion, although abhorrent, should still be allowed. Those exceptions should be few and far between. The only way the Supreme Court got away with Roe is that they argued that the fetus is essentially not yet a human being. The problem is this distinction is unintelligent and smacks of scientific naivete. Of course the fetus is a human being. We have got to stop being stupid. It has nothing to do with any constitutional rights. You have no constitutional right to kill a human being. At some point our society, and human beings, will have evolved sufficiently to understand this. We are obviously not there yet. I wonder how long it will take us to stop dragging our knuckles on the ground like some primitive ape-like ancestor. We have so very far to go. My god, this is 2010 and we still cling to medieval ideas. We need to get out of the tree and walk upright.

It is wrong for the government to require any woman to undergo an unwanted medical procedure!

Is killing an unborn baby murder? Is terminating the life of a child morally acceptable? There are exceptions where abortion, although abhorrent, should still be allowed.

Really? So you think you should get to decide when it is acceptable?

Isn't that hypocritical?

Why do you and the government get to decide when it is okay? If it isn't okay then it isn't okay. You people can't have it both ways but you're trying.

Scientific naiveté? As opposed to what? Moral supremacy?

Exactly Andrew! I can't strap my patients down to the bed and force a medication in them or a procedure on them when they refuse, so why should it be ok to essentially do the same thing to a woman because you want to bully her out of getting a legal medical procedure she is well within her rights to have. And considering the majority of abortions are done in the first eight weeks, which means a trans-vaginal ultrasound, this is nothing more than rape by foreign object. That is bad enough for any woman to have to endure, and since victims of rape or incest are not exempt, now the state is saying you have to rape them all over again! How utterly sickening.

An embryo may be human but it is not a person. A first trimester embryo, where the majority of abortions occur, has no ability to feel, no ability to think. It has none of the qualities that make you a person. What gives us value isn't a unique strand of DNA - it's functioning upper brains - something you won't find in a first or second trimester fetus.

“It just would have added to the pain of what is already a difficult decision,”

That is pretty much all that needs to be said.

What a stupid law.

Aren't these the same people who were furious with the government over trying to get between a patient and their doctor. Glad to know that they're in favor of it as long as it coincides with their moral views.

I don't have a vagina, but even if I did, it's not my place for me to tell someone else what they can do with their body.

Why the outrage? Maybe it's because a picture is worth a thousand words...

Andrew...

And how would you know? ...were you ever bathed in saline or hacked up by sharp instruments during your first or second trimester? Any of the kids that have, haven't lived to tell about it...

Why the outrage? Because there is NO need for ultrasounds. This is just another attempt by the anti-choice crowd to impose their wants on other women. Keep your nose in your OWN uterus.

And how would you know? ...were you ever bathed in saline or hacked up by sharp instruments during your first or second trimester?

Do you remember your time in your mothers uterus? No? I wonder why that is. Maybe you were missing something like upper brain function until the end of the pregnancy that would have allowed you to create memories or develop perception.

Oh and Andrew...

To compare an ultrasound for a pregnant woman to having an xray for each pack of cigarettes you may smoke is outright immature. What kind of person are you? You're a heartless, uncaring, and quite disgusting individual...

cantakamore, as someone who has had a vaginal untrasound (which is what is required if the pregnancy is fewer than 10 weeks along), trust me, it is more than seeing a picture. It is hardly a pleasant procedure. It is invasive. If it's necessary fine ... but it isn't necessary in order to perform an abortion.

Again, a picture is worth a thousand words. Many of these women are ignorant as to what they are doing. When there's nothing to see...it really isn't there. Hopefully, these women will see the life that exists in them and realize this "blob" is actually a living, growing, human inside her. Many will change their mind...and this is what the anger is over. The baby killers just want to go on killing babies in the name of personal rights. Well, someone has to speak for the soon to be born...

Myopinion,

I saw nothing about vaginal ultrasounds...and the picture of Laura showed the standard belly rubbing ultrasound. Please tell me you aren't against the tummy-type?

There's nothing to distinguish one ultrasound from another at this stage of pregnancy. How about just showing them a picture rather than vaginally raping them?

OMG...I guess when I go in for colon cancer screening and get the wand, I'm being sexually assaulted?

cantakenomore

This is what is in Oklahoma's law:

The law states that, one hour prior to beginning the abortion procedure, the provider must “Perform an obstetric ultrasound on the pregnant woman, using either a vaginal transducer or an abdominal transducer,whichever would display the embryo or fetus more clearly.”

It is institutionalized rape. Forcing a woman to have something shoved inside of her vagina is RAPE.

In Oklahoma incest and rape victims are not excluded from this. So they get raped twice. People who support this are sick.

I see a lawsuit coming! I can't wait to see this go to the supreme court!

Informed consent is a law in ALL 50 states; these women have the right, according to the law, to refuse these ultrasounds. These states cannot have a law that requires these ultrasounds before an abortion-ABORTION IS LEGAL and there is no other reason to have these ultrasounds other than to persuade them to change their minds. Hence, their rights, are being violated! This is illegal, and from the medical perspective it is UNETHICAL. I don't care where you stand on abortion-the laws clearly say that we can refuse any treatment or procedure as long as we aren't incapacitated.

How far will these jerks go to advance their agenda? Honestly, most of you that are protesting abortion are the same ones that have been calling Obama a socialist. But then, because you believe it is justified, you're going to support a communist law?!?! If you want to force people to do things they don't want to do-THEN MOVE TO CHINA.

Eris...

That's Oklahoma, there's 49 others, however...would you be against using only the abdominal?

OMG...I guess when I go in for colon cancer screening and get the wand, I'm being sexually assaulted?

If you were forced against your will to get the wand up your keester you sure would be.

Cantakenomore... Neither form of ultrasound should be forced upon any woman if she does not want it.....it is illegal in this country to force a citizen to undergo a medical procedure they do not want. Yet this law does just that....... someone else said it.. I can't wait for the lawsuit.... and I bet there are a bunch of lawyers lining up for their hands in this pocket.

If you are if you are being told that in order for you to have your tonsils taken removed you have to submit to someone shoving something up your butt then you are being raped.

It's like a kidnapper telling a woman I will let you go, if you LET me have sex with you. It's rape.

In order to get her treatment she has to submit to rape. It's DISGUSTING

cantakenomore I agree with bnbreilly completely

it is illegal in this country to force a citizen to undergo a medical procedure they do not want.

This is a clear overreach by government.

And I have asked Megladon and I will ask you. How do you feel about mandated insurance? I take it you're fine with that part of the health care bill? You don't feel that violates anyone's rights?

Let me first say that I'm a guy, so please take this commentary for what you think it's worth. Yes, yes....I know....what would I know about what a woman goes through who's agonizing over whether or not to abort a pregnancy? All I can say is what I would do if ever put into that situation myself.

I personally would only consider abortion only in cases of incest, rape or if the mother's life is in danger if she carried the baby full term. But, that's my own view, and it's not my place to counsel others as to what they should do or how they should feel. It's a personal decision they have to make, and it's not the government's place to regulate what a woman does with her own body, even when it's another living thing that's involved.

For those who believe that abortion amounts to murder of an innocent living human, I ask you this - you would like to have the abortion doctors prosecuted for premeditated murder, but how do you feel about prosecuting the mothers for involuntary manslaughter if they somehow do something to cause a miscarriage? Oh sure, one is premeditated and one was an accident. But, in the real world, if I run a red light and t-bone a minivan that's carrying children, and I end up killing a couple of them, I would be rightfully prosecuted for involuntary manslaughter. Hey, I didn't mean to hit that vehicle, to kill those kids!!

You "right to lifers" who would like to force your views and beliefs on the rest of the world can't have it one way for abortion doctors and then choose to look the other way when pregnant mothers play softball during their first trimester and cause the miscarriage of their pregnancy while sliding into third base. Would you, seriously, consider bringing these moms-to-be up on charges of involuntary manslaughter? Of course you wouldn't!

Forcing pregnant women to have ultrasounds for the sole reason of trying to persuade them against abortion is cruel and unnecessary. You think these women make the decision to abort lightly?? It must be gutwrenchingly emotional for them! I could not even fathom what kind of torture most of these women go through while considering the possibilities. And you would put them through even more of that kind of torture, because you think that what you believe should be forced on others who may not feel like you do.

cantakenomore I am against the government mandating ANY treatment for anyone when it is not necessary.

How about when the government decides for parents when a child requires medical treatment? For example, a child has cancer and the parents wish to use holistic medicines. Should the government step in?

"Raise Bar"......poor choice of words.

I don't have issues with abortions under certain circumstances, but there are people out there who would give up an appendage to have a child of their own.

what if the tables were turned?China for example have 1 child per couple rule. some women and teens aren't ready for the serious responsibility of raising a child, the money, the dedications and self sacrifices they would have to make. Unless pro lifers are willing to pay, care, and help the baby then how is it their business? someone explain why someone who doesn't know a dame thing about the person having an abortion or considering it has the right to have ANY say in her choice to keep the fetus? I respect their opinion but when they're getting the government to make/change laws, laws that will affect women personally that's where they're crossing the line. you don't know them or their situation or what led up to their pregnancy. You're not going to help raise that child. once the baby is born and you'll disappear because in fact you don't care about the quality of life the child will have Just about proving your point, but the women who chose to have an abortion are thinking about what will happen if they keep the fetus, the quality of life the baby will have, education, health, food, etc. Not your fetus, None of your business.

How about when the government decides for parents when a child requires medical treatment? For example, a child has cancer and the parents wish to use holistic medicines. Should the government step in?

No. If the parent feels holistic treatment is the best for their child then they should have that right to make that decision.

However that right stops if they refuse any treatment. Then it becomes a case of neglect. They CHOSE to have the kid. It is their responsibility to see that it is taken care of.

And you still didn't answer my question about the health care bill. Do you feel it is a violation of people's rights to force them to buy insurance?

Eris 2010 : Comment 1.9 First of equating viagra, communism and even a vasectomy in the same argument about the right and wrong of abortion is a little stretch. Viagra no "life" question is involved only performance. Communism, in a number of communist countries abortion is perfectly legal and has been for years. Vasectomy, again that "procreation" argument is at this stage not present.

This whole debate on abortion is highly emotional and both sides believe firmly in their viewpoints. What seems to be missing from much of this discussion is the the "moral question". Just because a law states it's OK doesn't make something moral. At one point slavery was lawful in this country whereas now we consider it unlawful and immoral.

Don't confuse confuse morality as being the same as what is the conventional wisdom or acceptance of a society at a given time.

Truthfully my heart goes out to most women who find themselves having to make this moral decision, in most cases it can't be easy.

While I find abortion repulsive...I do understand there are circumstances where it is necessary. What about if a woman is going to have a baby with congenital/genetic defects? What about a woman/family who can't afford to have another child? What if the woman suffers from mental issues where she would cause the child harm.

As for "Focus on the Family" (they focus more on the politics of power/money...more than actually wanting to help those in need)...what if they had spent that money on helping women/families who are all ready here...rather than grabbing power? What about setting up a home to help these women keep the babies or helping with adopting them out to parents who want them? For being a "christian" organization...they don't follow/believe the teachings of Christ.

Comment 1.9 First of equating viagra, communism and even a vasectomy in the same argument about the right and wrong of abortion is a little stretch. Viagra no "life" question is involved

That is your opinion, it is not the law. Abortion is legal and it is against the law for government to force people to have medical treatments they do not want.

The moral question? People are autonomous and what one believes to be moral does not mean another believes the same. Are we to impose our beliefs on everyone else now?

I believe organized religion is a breeding ground for bigotry and hate and often leads to wars and death. I believe that because it costs people their lives we should abolish it. That sound about right to you?

Communism... you're right this is more like fascism. Much worse.

Vasectomy, again that "procreation" argument is at this stage not present.

The argument for when life begins is purely based on a belief. Some people believe that sex should ONLY occur with the intent of procreation. What if some people decided this would be a good law to pass because it is in line with what they believe? I am sure you would accept that right?

Where does the line get drawn on forcing others to recognize what someone else believes to be moral or not?

Andrew, you don't make sense, AN embryo may be HUMAN BUT IT IS NOT A PERSON.

When the Women's EGG and the MAN'S SPERM UNITE it is the start of a HUMAN BEING. In other words, it is not an APPLE tree until it bares an Apple?

You see the LIBERALS changed the wording , When it first started it was Called ABORTION but that was not what the LIBERALS wanted to hear , IT made some of them feel GUILTY,( if that is Possible) so they CHANGED IT TO CHOICE. Don't sound so MEAN.

It is just like the words HOMOSEXUAL, years ago people called them Queers, Which was because

it was ODD for TWO MEN to LOVE ONE ANOTHER as MAN AND WOMEN, so they changed it to GAY, and HUMAN RIGHTS. It's all in the WORDING.

And you still didn't answer my question about the health care bill. Do you feel it is a violation of people's rights to force them to buy insurance?

Yes I do...quite honestly, I'm against government intrusion on many levels. This subject is different. It's not about religion with me...maybe there are far right wing Christians who use the Bible to justify their position. I simply believe life begins at conception and no matter what stage of development that life is at...it's still a human life. Therefore, I will try my best to speak for the ones who cannot speak yet themselves. Do you believe in the 1st amendment? If you were to believe life begins at conception, wouldn't you stand behind the unborn's right to be heard? Therefore, it really comes down to when you believe life begins. Just because at the first trimester, that "blob" doesn't look human, doesn't mean they're not. I've seen awful deformities from people who have been born. If looking "human" is the only criteria, we'd have to exterminate them as well.

Sooo sick of the religious taliban trying to invade a person's right to personal choice and medical decisions. What is next? Will there be pickets outside of dentist's office for tooth extractions? Outside of bathrooms for major BM's? These small minded individuals should get real and worry about themselves.

(loved the keester comment Andrew, lol)

Andrew, you don't make sense, AN embryo may be HUMAN BUT IT IS NOT A PERSON.

How do I not make sense? Is eating a handful of pinenuts the same as cutting down a forest? No. There's concrete distinctions between things at different stages of development which affect the value we place upon them. A pine nut is not a pine tree and an embryo is not a thinking feeling person.

Vooda...

For you to compare abortions to tooth extractions or major BM's, you lose ALL credibility. If you are going to take a position, why not offer something useful to the discussion, otherwise keep your mindless dribble to yourself...

Yes I do...quite honestly, I'm against government intrusion on many levels. This subject is different. It's not about religion with me..

I didn't say it was about religion. This is about when you believe life begins. Not everyone shares that belief.

Do you believe in the 1st amendment? If you were to believe life begins at conception, wouldn't you stand behind the unborn's right to be heard?

I believe in all the amendments and you have every right to speak up about it. But I also firmly believe in the civil liberties rights.

Civil liberties are rights and freedoms that protect an individual from the state. Civil liberties set limits on the government so that its agents cannot abuse their power and interfere unduly with the lives of private citizens.

I am not for abortion believe it or not. But there is no way in this world I'd want someone telling me what I have to do based upon what they believe and I would not force my belief on anyone else.

You can not claim the government is violating your rights by forcing you to take responsibility for one thing and then yell it is unfair when they do it in another way just because of what you believe. You either believe the government has no rights to make personal decisions for you or not.

There is no ifs. Abortion is already legal and what these people are doing is a clear violation of law.

What do you want to bet that the people that are just fine with this government intervention are of the same ilk that have been whining about big government take over of healthcare. It is ok is the government intervenes on their issues, but not on issues that they do not go along with.

There is something really jarring to watch the right wing ask for government intervention without seeing their own hypocrisy. They are just so used to their inconsistencies.

Many of these women are ignorant as to what they are doing. When there's nothing to see...it really isn't there. Hopefully, these women will see the life that exists in them and realize this "blob" is actually a living, growing, human inside her. Many will change their mind...

This is what pro-choicers are mad about. The assumption that the pro-life side makes that women are ignorant. That women are too stupid to realize what is involved in a pregnancy and abortion. But contrary to your suggestion, the article states that even when women opt to see the ultrasound, they do not choose to stop the procedure. In fact:

In some instances, the ultrasounds have affected women in ways not intended by anti-abortion strategists. Because human features may barely be detectable during much of the first trimester, when 9 of 10 abortions are performed, some women find viewing the images reassuring.

"It just looked like a little egg, and I couldn't see arms or legs or a face," said Tiesha, 27, who chose to view her 8-week-old embryo before aborting it at the Birmingham clinic. "It was really the picture of the ultrasound that made me feel it was O.K."

The option to see an ultrasound is always available. So why bother inserting government regulation into a procedure that does not require it?

Not one women changed her mind!!!!!!

Money well spent you. You people need to just butt out of other lives. And while you're all entitled to your opinions when you start forcing your beliefs on others is when you deserve a boot in your ass. Furthermore, while those of you are on here crying its murder another 500 women just walked out of clinics after having the procedure done. And guess what? None of them were wearing handcuffs so obviously our federal government doesn't agree with your warped definition of murder. All you losers who stand in front of the clinics protesting should get real jobs and actually contribute something to society.

You're correct, just because the state says something is legal, does not mean it is moral. However, as far as I am concerned, the government has no business deciding what is moral. My body, my values, my decision. They only have a responsibility to make laws that are "good" for society or as a whole.

The way I see it-abortion is very, very good for society.

Oh lighten up cantakenomore....listen Missy or Mister....I am just pointing out how ludicrous it is to put such stipulations on what a patient has to/can't do......It is insane that someone else thinks they are so powerful that they get to decide what is best for that person.

And as far as lack of credibility goes you should refrain from accusing someone of that when you are so judgemental, resort to name calling, and obviously lack the educational background for much of this discussion.

If I run over and kill a pregnant woman in the cross walk I'll get 2 charges, not just one. Sorry but you liberals can't have it both ways. Either a fetus is alive or it isn't.

The problem with our society is it views children as women's property. This is why every attempt was made to sympathize and get Andrea Yates off for killing her kids but any man who does the same thing is on the short track to the slammer.

This is why the conversation always turns to the woman's rights, what they can do with their bodies. They've never adequately explained away the rights of the unborn so they just dug up a couple doctors and lawyers with an agenda to say it's not really a human life and expect the rest of us to shut up now, just like global warming.

The debate is closed. Consensus has been reached. If only they'd canonize the Supreme Court's campaign finance decision the same way.

My wife just had one of these vaginal ultrasounds. You could clearly see the heart beat at 9 weeks. Don't try and tell me my baby isn't a living person.

Okay Vooda...

Let's review what you've posted on the subject...'nuff said!

Your posts sound incredibly intelligent as well, (sar. intended)...

Eris,

I didn't say it was about religion. This is about when you believe life begins. Not everyone shares that belief.

You may not have but read all the posts that talk about right-wing Christian lunatics... I'm not a right wing Christian lunatic but I can sure come up with some colorful words for the liberal left as well!

If you don't understand why you would be charged with 2 murders, then you don't understand how the justice system in this country works. So that example, does not PROVE that a fetus is a person. All it proves, is that the prosecuter wants to sentence a murderer to the hilt and get a longer sentence.

My wife just had one of these vaginal ultrasounds. You could clearly see the heart beat at 9 weeks. Don't try and tell me my baby isn't a living person.

That's just your emotions speaking, it is not scientific proof that a fetus is a autonomous living being.

It seems to me Smarty Pants that you've had to wrap yourself up in a couple delusions to support your immoral beliefs.

We live in a country where if you mistreat a cat you'll get jail time but a heart beating is not proof of life, therefore we'll vacuum out the parts and throw them in the garbage and go have a sandwich.

My emotions are working the way they're supposed to. It's you that's f***** up.

cantakenomore I have not said a word about Christians or even right wing people. So I don't know why you're bringing that issue up with me and why you suggested that I said so.

Maybe those comments are best directed at someone who did.

Yeah its absolutely rediculous for a human being to even be able to look at a image of there umborn child and be able to kill it... just because its not born yet doent mean its not a living thing. Not to mention its a part of you/ your own child!!! if you didnt want it you shouldnt have spread you legs in the first place!!! its really nobody but you own stupid fault!!!

Eris...

You may not have but read all the posts that talk about right-wing Christian lunatics...

Did you even read what I posted? You obviously don't bring religion into it but most others taking your position do. Voodo calls them religious taliban. There are many others as well. I respect your position since we both agree what the real matter is. It's when you believe life begins. I happen to believe it begins at conception and you must believe it's at the 2nd trimester or some time around there...

Hey Lyss. A large number of them women are girls between the age of 15 and 20 being brought to these places buy their mothers. But I guess you think a 16 year old girl is ready to be a mother huh? Maybe in your family but not the rest of the U.S. sorry.

ms397461 and all of your self-righteous fools and I don't use that word lightly are going to to be so surprised when Jesus sends you sinful souls to hell because of acts like this.

You fail to understand that Christians are not supposed to be of the world but in the world just traveling through.

I know that you sing the songs but you fail to understand that as you judge so shall you be judged.

Your hate filled venom is matched by the Muslims extremest who have the same goal that you have and I say a pox on both of your houses

Yes I did read your post but you're still directing it to me. Why not address those posts specifically is what I am asking. :)

I have no opinions on when life begins. My only opinion is that I myself would never have one and if the pregnancy is late term enough then perhaps the fetus should be removed and incubated and given whatever chance it has and the woman go her way. Someone would surely adopt it if it survives.

But even then it is the mother's choice because of what procedures would have to be done. She has the right to direct what is done to her body.

I just don't think it is my place to put my nose in someone else's personal life and certainly I won't pretend to know when life begins.

Oh isnt't that a nice post, People's_Republic_of_Seattle! I'm f#cked up? Angry much? Did I hit a "Soft spot", lmao!

If you think you have the right to tell me what is wrong/right or moral/immoral, you don't understand a lot more than just the justice system! Perhaps, you should consider moving to a communist country where it is perfectly acceptable to dictate what others HAVE to believe.

Anti-choice fanatics aka religious Taliban are close minded people that threaten living breathing human beings because their views (ironically regarding life) are not the same or want to impose their belief's on others. These people are complete hypocrites!

I could give a care when cantakenomore or anyone else believe's life begins because that is an opinion not fact.

And some people should not judge other people's lifestyles and choices. Sometimes those judgements have a way of coming back a biting one in ones keester.

bopdaddy,

What Jesus are you talking about? Go to Mexico and you will see pictures of Jesus in tie-dyed T-shirts. They all have a different vision of what Jesus is just like many people have different faiths. I myself have never read the bible and will not run my life based on something PEOPLE who do not represent my beliefs wrote in a book many years ago. This is about freedom of choice period! A right for all Americans!!!!!!

Eris,

You said it, not me...

"...perhaps the fetus should be removed and incubated and given whatever chance it has and the woman go her way. Someone would surely adopt it if it survives."

"if it survives..." assumes it's living and possibly could. Wouldn't you agree this is a person who simply needs assistance to grow towards the next phase in life? Should they be allowed to? If you agree, then doesn't this individual deserve the same rights as you and me? At what point does this person have rights, in your opinion? Only when they can fend for themselves?

Your point about adoption is indeed fact. There are plenty of people willing and able!

thanks for the conversation. I have to go and purchase my veggie plants for my garden. Just getting out of winter and moving towards spring!

Until it attains personhood it is property. The mother retains ther right over that property to have it gestated or disposed of. The Supreme Court puts the distinction at the third trimester. Scientifically it's more complicated, but the first trimester embryo certainly isn't a person in any meaningful way.

How sadistic is it to force someone who is already under stress from having made such a momentous decision to look at the ultrasound image??? Everyone needs to mind their own business and leave these issues to the patient and physician. Believe me, people of means can have an abortion wherever and whenever they want with no interference from the rabid rabble... These laws are directed at the disadvantaged and less fortunate.

cantakenomore,

"if it survives..." assumes it's living and possibly could. Wouldn't you agree this is a person who simply needs assistance to grow towards the next phase in life? Should they be allowed to? If you agree, then doesn't this individual deserve the same rights as you and me? At what point does this person have rights, in your opinion? Only when they can fend for themselves?

Your point about adoption is indeed fact. There are plenty of people willing and able!

First, your view on "if it survives" actually proves that it is not a living person. A fetus has all the properties of a parasite, NOT a self-sustaining life. In order to grow and "live" it must feed off the nutrients of its host organism. Thus, an abortion is the removal of a parasite from a woman. When it becomes a self-sustaining life, then it is a person.

Second, the fact that you say "There are plenty of people willing and able" to adopt shows that you know little to nothing about the foster care system in this country. In fact, there are too many children currently in the program, and many will never find a home. People like you don't seem to understand, or care, what happens to the child after they are born. You believe they go to a magical place called "adoption" where they are immediately snatched up by loving parents. Unfortunately reality does not match your rose-colored glasses. The demand for adopting children does not come close to satisfying the over-flowing supply of children in the system. So what shall we do with all these unwanted kids? Will you take care of them all? Will the other anti-abortion activists step in and help? Not likely.

I find it odd that the state would FORCE a medical procedure on a woman whether she wants it or not. Who pays for it? Who wants government making medical decisions? Who wants to TAKE AWAY personal freedoms? Who wants to add to our healthcare costs (already the highest in the world)?

Thoughts...

Thus, an abortion is the removal of a parasite from a woman. When it becomes a self-sustaining life, then it is a person.

A woman's parasite turns into her child...at the 3rd trimester, I suppose? What's your definition of self-sustaining? Newly born infants would die if not for them being a "parasite" to the care giver...so what's your point?

You are also wrong about adoptions. There is a long line for those waiting for newborns. Why do you think there is so much adopting of African and Chinese babies?

Why can't there be an incentive offered from the government to pregnant women who don't want their child?

How about a legal possibility to get your child adopted and not make this deathly decision?

The government should not only focus on more prevention campaigns, but also invest into finding alternatives for women to be able to see an incentive why it would be a better choice to give your child to someone that for ex. can't have children of their own.....!

Aside of that I do believe that women who have more than 2 abortions in 2 years should really go on a prepaid longterm prevention program paid by the government which does not have to be taken orally but is implemented in the body!!!

Stop taking life for granted and live Life with Intent and Purpose :-) God bless!

This law is abhorrent. It is tantamount to bullying, forcing a woman to undergo an ultrasound before having a perfectly legal procedure which she made up her mind to have.

Diisgusting!!

cantnomore

Eris,

You said it, not me...

"...perhaps the fetus should be removed and incubated and given whatever chance it has and the woman go her way. Someone would surely adopt it if it survives."

It is my opinion but not one I think needs enforced. Just because that is how I feel about it, still does not make it right for me to assume that someone else should accept that.

"if it survives..." assumes it's living and possibly could. Wouldn't you agree this is a person who simply needs assistance to grow towards the next phase in life? Should they be allowed to?

Again, in order for this "person" as you put it to get out it has to go through someone else's body. I am not willing to shove aside the rights for one for another. That is not my decision to make nor is it anyone else's. There are two people here and you are neglecting one of these "people's" rights. You feel like the woman's rights should be given less consideration because she had the misfortune to get pregnant. But who are you to decide that or I, for that matter or anyone?

If you agree, then doesn't this individual deserve the same rights as you and me? At what point does this person have rights, in your opinion? Only when they can fend for themselves?

In a perfect world I would agree but this is an imperfect world.

I can't give you a good argument for why a woman shouldn't opt to do this instead of abort because I am not in her shoes and I don't know what it is doing to her mentally, physically or emotionally. No one does. That is why these decisions should be made by her and her alone.

Though, these days the law states that if a fetus is old enough to be viable then instead of being aborted a doctor has an obligation to try and save it even if the woman doesn't want it. So we may be arguing a moot point.

Late term abortion is very rare and in most cases is only done to save a mother's life. The other rarity might be a woman that had no idea she was pregnant and that has happened. No two pregnancies are alike.

Excuse me for rambling I am high on allergy meds. LOL

Anti-abortion groups argue that pre-abortion sonograms can help persuade women to preserve pregnancies.

For the last @!$%#ing time,

It is not your choice!

it is not your decision!

I am sick to death of anti-abortion groups shoving their god damn beliefs down the female throat!

AMEN! How f*&^%$ condescending, "we know what's best for you"

Bulls&%$!!!!!

People's_Republic_of_Seattle

there is a difference in a woman that is carrying a child and a woman that is carrying a fetus. A woman that is carrying a child actually WANTS the baby and is caring for and is planning to have this child. a woman that is carrying a fetus may or may not want to have the child, that is her decision and her decision alone. that is why i call them maybe babies ~~~ maybe the mother wants the child and a maybe she doesn't.

Also, for it being a woman's right, it IS her right and her right alone. a man does not have to go through the turmoil of pregnancy and labor. a man, for all intents and purposes, can up and leave whenever he wants. he doesn't HAVE to pay child support if he doesn't stick around unless you take him to court, he doesn't HAVE to be around. if a man decides he doesn't want to be a dad, he's just a deadbeat. if a WOMAN decides she doesn't wan her child she is called a bad mother and can even be charged with abandonment! the double standards are never ending. NO ONE has the right to tell a woman what to do with her body. if she happens to get pregnant and the man wants the child then, if she wants, she can have the baby, sign over all rights and obligations and go on her merry way, then the man can have the responsibility all his own!

Anti-Abortion groups always try pushing legislation like requiring women to build a nursery and name the fetus before being eligible to get a abortion. Even when they get lucky and a road inconvenience gets put into place they still don't stop. If they can't control what women do with their bodies then they want to make it as inconvenient as possible for them to.

77% of Anti-Abortionists are Men. If these men spent as much time educating young men on Protection, choosing their partners smartly and how they can't control women any longer than abortions would drop drastically. If your dating a women that believes women should have control over their bodies then obviously that's the type of lady you shouldn't be sleeping with. If your uncomfortable asking a women these questions then your not mentally mature enough to be having sex with another person, buy a Fleshlight to keep yourself satisfied until your brain catches up with your body.

People's_Republic_of_Seattle--

If I run over and kill a pregnant woman in the cross walk I'll get 2 charges, not just one. Sorry but you liberals can't have it both ways. Either a fetus is alive or it isn't.

BACK WAY WAY WAY UP HERE.

It was NOT the liberals that put that into law it was BUSH, a Republican/Conservative that PUT the Laci Peterson Law aka the Unborn Victims of Violence Act 2004 into Law. NOT Liberals. Liberals are also NOT the ones defining when life starts again that belongs to the Conservatives.

MY definition of life for a fetus is when it is OUTSIDE THE WOMB, BORN.

The problem with our society is it views children as women's property. This is why every attempt was made to sympathize and get Andrea Yates off for killing her kids but any man who does the same thing is on the short track to the slammer.

You have got to be a male with that comment. Andrea Yates was being used by her husband to be a BABY FACTORY and she suffered from severe postpartum depression and psychosis, she tried to commit suicide a couple of times and was committed to psych wards then discharged and less than 2 months post discharge she got pregnant. But hey since you want to split hairs of her getting off for killing her kids well remember John Hinckley Jr. got off pleading insanity for shooting Reagan, and he was obsessed with Jodie Foster.

This is why the conversation always turns to the woman's rights, what they can do with their bodies. They've never adequately explained away the rights of the unborn so they just dug up a couple doctors and lawyers with an agenda to say it's not really a human life and expect the rest of us to shut up now, just like global warming.

The debate is closed. Consensus has been reached. If only they'd canonize the Supreme Court's campaign finance decision the same way.

My wife just had one of these vaginal ultrasounds. You could clearly see the heart beat at 9 weeks. Don't try and tell me my baby isn't a living person.

Because it is a woman's right. WE carry the fetus for 9 months YOU DON'T. When YOU can actually give birth to a baby then you can have a say.

Ok guess what smart guy, if that 9 week old fetus was removed from the uterus it would NOT survive on its own. THAT is why it is NOT living. It cannot survive without the mother.

Eris your comment from 1.47 is a pure "relativism" argument. Relativism holds that Truth is a individual interpretation. Society rejects this argument on so many issues. Does society accept murder. We you claim as individuals are autonomous? do you drive in the opposite lane to all others? Relativism is impractical in a the society have chosen, our society must have laws and ethical standards to function.

Fascism as a definition is an ideology which attempts to combine authoritarian nationalism with a corporate economic system. Hard to see how this is relevant to the present discussion!

taken away by asked if you want to see the fetus you are about to kill? lol, thats crazy.

How about this, given the chance to look someone in the eye, before you kill them, and the picture to take home with you you can even show your friends.... like someone who got a deer on hunting season, a pic you can look back, and remember, just how great your rights are?

You just cannot have it both ways. You want the government to butt out, but yet you are perfectly ok with it intefering with other people's private decisions. Once born, you don't want the government to be involved at all.

You don't believe in abortion? Fine - that is you choice. Do not have one. Don't you dare butt into my business - I will make my own choices.

taken away by asked if you want to see the fetus you are about to kill? lol, thats crazy.

Forcing someone to have a medical procedure against their will is absolutely a violation of their rights.

BJ's

I'll bet your ancestors said, "Don't believe in slavery? Fine, then don't own one. Don't you dare butt into my business..."

Microm.... you are onto something with BJ's! I am all for more of that and less vaginal intercourse. I am pro choice on that....

Patrick-513884

Microm.... you are onto something with BJ's! I am all for more of that and less vaginal intercourse. I am pro choice on that....

Less vaginal intercourse? So you prefer BJ's and anal? How good for her. Sounds damn selfish to me.

Again,,,, money well spent. As you have read in the article if you read it. Not one woman changed her mind.

Megaladon-

taken away by asked if you want to see the fetus you are about to kill? lol, thats crazy.

No, it's not crazy. By killing late term abortion doctors, it affects who has access to those services. It is possible that a woman may die because there is not a doctor in her area, or anywhere near her, that is qualified to perform a life-saving abortion.

All because people like you cheer on these fanatics-another hypocrisy on the pro-life side. Abortion is immoral but murdering someone who already exists is justified if they have performed abortions?

the object here is not of those in need of a life saving abortion, it the topic of abortion under healthy circumstance.

Oh really? Well that may be the topic HERE-but the consequences of the pro-life view reach much farther. People like you encourage those fanatics.

micrometer--

Slavery and abortion are not the same get over that ridiculous comparison.

Kshark

Slavery and abortion share some common ideas. If you cannot figure them out, just ask, and I, or someone else here will be glad to explain them to you.

Absolutely. No more backfitting!

What is 'backfitting?

VV - tell that to the anti-choice crowd who has (very successfully in many places) done everything they can to prevent education about sex, birth control and pregnancy prevention.

Bressus tell me about it.

I once took my daughter to go get birth control and some pro-birther freak standing outside the clinic grabber her by the arm and jerked her off the sidewalk and started shouting in her face for even going to the clinic.

I almost "aborted" him right there on the spot. They told us inside the clinic he is always out there and is not supposed to be on the property. They had called the cops on him multiple times but he stays out there and harasses women all the time.

I'm all for free speech but if that ever happened to me, ooh I would have punched that guy for laying a hand on my daughter! The pro-life side definitely crosses the "peaceful protest" and "right to free speech" line by a mile!

We have the same problem where I live-whenever I drive to our downtown area, I pass the Planned Parenthood clinic-and sometimes there are a couple of people protesting on the sidewalk. It gives me a good laugh when I see them-they're always "shady" looking types.

I didn't have to. I wanted to but she did it before I could get to her. I was not that close to her when it occurred. My daughter is not a small girl and she is quite scrappy. She took care of it. He couldn't do anything about it either. He got what he deserved.

OMG Eris2010 I would've beat his butt, their not allowed to touch, yell, over all harass someone. I give you credit for not "aborting" him and i would've pressed charges. Its one thing to stand their and talk it's another to harass. I had an abortion i was 3 weeks people were outside and we had an old woman "bodyguard" who walked us to the door. Those pro lifers knew better than to harass and we walked by like they were ordinary people on the street. BUT to be honest i was upset because they made me feel ashamed of what i was doing though a part of me wanted to keep the fetus a bigger part of me knew in no way we or my family was ready to raise a child. I don't regret doing it because i am where i am today but ill always live with the question what if but that's the sacrifice i made because it was the best decision for all people who actually would've been involved my boyfriend and both our families. I did however noticed NO strangers or pro lifers were personally effected so it all goes back to it's my body my life my business

By the time I got to her the man was on his ass on the ground. She's a big girl with a short fuse. He grabbed the wrong lady and he wasn't expecting it. lol

As I said, I'd have done it but she beat me to it.

LOL that's great!

Eris, Good for your daughter!!!

ASH1440301 I'm not blaming anyone, i choose to have an abortion because me and boyfriend weren't ready, the pro lifers out there made me feel uncomfortable. Which is normal when you're making a ruff decision and people who have no idea who you are, are telling you that though what I'm doing ISN'T against the law I'm still a monster, going to hell, etc. Just like gays trying to get married or back in the day when African Americans wanted freedom, all people know know to do is HATE well guess what, we have no more slaves, gays are making progress and women will still have the right to their bodies and to decide if they are capable of bringing and raising a child. Unless you over there where ever you are are going to help me raise the baby and give it a quality of life that i cant at this time then stay the heck out of my uterus.

Ines-401267, it was your decision to make and no one knows what all you had to consider to reach that decision. It is so easy for a stranger to look at one piece and ignore the whole of the person and all of the lives involved. Only you know what was best for you and damn the ignorant and judgmental bystanders.

Thank you SW i appreciate the support but your right dame those judgmental bystanders like i said before those people need to stay out of other women's uterus

why is it wrong??? because you get to hear what little there will be known for the life that is about to be taken? Because you can actually face what you are about to do with a sence of reality? or when you get a pic of the ultrasound look back and be so so proud of your rights? c'mon, it breaks no laws, and it gives a person one last chance to try... as well, a reason to think twice before letting it happen again.

reply to #4 - Please Danica, How do you know that no woman is changing her mind about having an abortion, once she sees the picture of the fetus she is carrying...her baby, a REAL little person?

uvuvuv You have hit the Crux of the problem right on the head. "a woman should have the right to control her body and that of her baby". I am sorry but a baby is not property even though women would have us all believe such. If it is then she,not her husband or boyfriend, should be responsible for it including 100% financially. women would have us all believe that there is a special bond between their baby and them and based on this they, in over 95% of the cases win custody in a divorce. The mans only responsibility is to pay and pay, and pay. You, women have even taken away the ability of men to even be consulted when you kill our children and yet we are responsible to pay, and pay, and pay. You, women, forget that it takes two people to produce that child and yet in many cases we, men, aren't even told of the existence of the child. Now because you, women, can't find some sap to impregnate you in time have turned to artificial insemination at sperm centers. You talk of inflicting psychological pain on someone, you even want only those donors that have signed a paper saying that you can tell the child who his or her father is when they are grown. Imagine the guy who finally finds someone he trusts enough to share a life with who opens the door and a 20 something says, Daddy. No you, women want everything one sided. You, women, are the ones that can't make a commitment. You instead go to bars to find a donor and have a one night stand. That child you are producing or killing is not your property. You are the guardians of that life. It is not some disease you have been infected with. I am sorry but you may have the right to control your body but you still have no right to make your womb the most dangerous place a child will ever exist in. That's right, the major cause of death for children is their mothers choice to kill them and now you are killing them after the fact and expecting the rest of us to have sympathy for you when you decide to drowned them or throw them away in garbage cans. No you will never convince me that you are anything but uncaring murders and you should either be sterilized or executed. Row Vs Wade was wrong when the supreme Court ruled and it is still wrong. Just because something is legal does not make it right. You don't want kids, use birth control. It works and no one dies.

Dave @4.4 -

A one-night stand from a bar creates a variety of problems for women and men who engage in such practices: abortion if a pregnancy results, proof of the father's identity for child support if the child is taken to term, problems from STDs, etc. Furthermore, birth control is not the responsibility of women only. Women and men should also practice birth control, even more important, safe sex which includes birth control.

why is it wrong???

Because it is a mandated procedure by a bunch of old white men and not one based upon the needs and what is good for the doctor's patient.

First do no harm. That is the doctor's job. If he is harming patients in any way, then his job is being interfered with.

We don't allow cruel and unusual punishment to rapists in prison but we'll sure rake women over the coals won't we.

How about you, Dave Smith, carrying the child to term and giving birth the natural, not caesarian, way?

No man has a right to say anything about abortion until they start doing just that.

Btw: you sound terribly bitter. There is help for that, you know.

Vintage Viner: My statement "No one is changing their mind" was based on the story, as stated in the line I wrote previous to that statement "And, it isn't working anyway, according to this story". The writer of the story said that 84% of women who come in to have an abortion and are forced to have an ultrasound and a description of the fetus STILL have the abortion immediately following. Yes 84% is not all, but it is the majority. It's more that 3/4 of the women who go in who choose not to change their mind. That confirms that the new laws do NOT affect abortion rates. Having looked up information after reading this story, I found that that is exactly on par with the amount of women who choose to continue their abortion after arriving at clinic's in states that do NOT have this law. With laws, 84% STILL have an abortion. Without the law, 89% still have an abortion. A 5% difference is NOT a win.

Dave - a man has a choice to use a condom every single time he has sex. If he does not exercise his right to choose then, then he must face the consequences of his actions.

This amounts to a state-imposed tax on a medical procedure.

An ultrasound adds a couple of hundred bucks to the cost of an abortion. Seems like a clever way of trying to price out low income people and stress the non-profits that provide abortions.

Especially after health insurance stops covering abortions thanks to the new health care bill. Low income women will also have to take more time off from work, which they can't afford, or be forced to have children which they really can't afford. Christian Sharia law at work.

happytoseeya:

may not be the sole responsibility of the woman but in the end, it is their choice. drunk and stupid, or teen in love no matter. people were crying about sex ed being taught in school, and the same people are the ones who are pro choice imo. it all comes down to this people. every sec of the day we all make a choice, and it swings a door one way or another, and by action, or inaction, something always happens, even if you lock yourself in a room for the rest of your life, you still have made a change in the world. With each choice and door that opens we take the responsibility for the action to come. You practice safe sex, and or wait till you are rdy to have a child, you have made a choice, just like someone who didnt have safe sex, and has an unwanted pregnancy.

To say that a child from an unwanted pregnancy can not have a good life, is just wrong. Me, i was an unwanted pregancy. i didnt have the best parents by any means. I was beat when i was a kid, got teased at school, and so on. Here's the catch tho. My daughter calls me every day, whenever she has time. (she was an unplanned child as well). I am a great welder, and have proven myself to be productive in life, and feel i have good to share with others. I am a kind person who would give you the shirt off my back, even if i didnt like you much. My kids are the same way, even tho un planned. I am still a single parent, and pay my support for my children. The story goes on, but lets just say the crying about how bad a kid will be, only starts from home, and how it is raised, not planned. It is how WE choose to raise our children that make a diffrence, and as loong as any child has some support that assures them, they can make a diffrence, they have the world at their fingers.

It isnt so much a matter of rights, how much $ one makes, or how 1 person thinks anothers life will be like. Those are cop out feelings we want to believe in to think we made the right choice, thats all. The fact is, there are a lot of people and kids, that dont even know who their real fathers are, i am 1, who can be a good influence on others. Who can make something out of themselves despite short commings, and show people yes, you have a right, and a choice. Time to make it, and make it count. I was also supposed to be aborted, but i wasnt. My grandmother gave my mother a tea, to miscarry, almost happend i guess. Guess you could say im a fighter, who knows.

Those of you tho who want to say your crap how unwanted children become ... what ever, your talking out your pie hole is all, and you are wrong, and i am that proof, as well my children. My oldest daughter just got her 1st job. I set her up with a nice acct. My youngest is still working hard for college to be in the ochestra. So you see, it isnt a matter if a child is planned, or wanted at the the time they are created, its a matter of who we are, to be there for them that counts. No, ill be the 1st to say it isnt a bed of roses, and if i had a choice to do things a bit diffrently i would, but not 1 of those would be not to have my kids when i did.

Megalodon-358694, no one said anything about how the unwanted child turns out. It was the shared responsibility of the man for birth control. If the man does not use birth control and the woman gets pregnant and carries to term, the man is responsible for child support. He has no say on whether she carries to term or aborts.

you are wrong, he has a say, as i did. it is something that goes along with a relationship, you both have a say, and discuss the problem. maybe thats part of the problem too... you say a man should wear a condom? well how about saying no if he doesnt? you have a say right there, right from from the start, and try to put it all on the male when its your no no he's going to put into your no no? see, you can try and dump it ALL on the male all you want to, but its your body, as all you pro choicer's are crying about. well if its YOUR BODY, and you want a say, SAY IT! dont be comming on here trying to dump blame, all on one person, and then cry "its my body...waaa waaaa!" when if you thought that from the start you wouldnt be getting an abortion, or even here talking about it. because if you are so it's "my body", then what you are saying is, its ok to have unprotected sex, get knocked up, and have an abortion just because you can. if thats the case, you have none, and are just a pos that like to pass the responsibilty off on the next person, untill it affects you directly, and practice what you preach.

Cause if you were so "its my body", you'd have a lot moore respect for it than before you had to run in and get your body taken care of. i got words for people like you who want to push blame, and lay claim its not your fault, but boy ofh boy! would i be f'ing banned.

Ya, now you got me going....because here's the deal, all the little "my body, my right" people.... have a little self respect once, cause if you did you would be sitting here crying about it as you are. if your body is dam important to you, do what it takes on your own end to take care of it rather than put it off on someone else. YOUR BODY??? if you felt that way to begin with you would have made sure to practce safe sex right from the start.

Megladon

You had the right to choose to have your baby. What if that right was taken away? Would that be okay with you?

You still haven't answered my question about where you stand on mandated health insurance. Do you think anyone's rights are being violated there?

i dont believe in the HCR bill that was passed, no. it's a crock of crap. As far as someone saying i have no rights to have a baby no, i dont believe that should happen like it does in china either. I also dont believe when you have an abortion, the unborn is given a say in the matter. Thing is, its a matter of taking care of buisness. i hear "its my body, my right", but see, fact is, we all have a choice. does 2 wrongs make 1 right? No, of course not.

A woman has a say, of course, but to wait till after the fact, kind of defeats the whole argument if you ask me. If 2 concenting adults decide its ok to not take precautions, then it is up to them to follow thru with the reprecussions. If i as a male say no condom tonight baby, and you say yay! go for it, you dont think there might be a possibility you can get pregnant, just like the male? Perhaps you both think at the time you were meant for each other, and want a baby, or if it happens its sign or some garbage... maybe it is... a sign to wake up, grow up, and buckle down because your whole world is about to change. scary stuff i know, i been there... and i wouldnt change it for ANYTHING. If you knew just some of the hell i been thru, and think its been some cake walk for me think again. Still, i held my ground, and scared sh!tless or not, i kept right on going.

so yes if that right was taken away, altho i am a male i'd be fine with that. Why someone else should have to pay for someone's abortion i am not. Altho it has bee so called scrapped from the bill, not to worry, i am sure it will wiggle its way back in somehow.

As far as me surviving a forced miscarriage, i'll also tell you something, all of you pro choicer's here..... if you think for one second, i would have wished i had been miscarried, or aborted think again! I am glad i was brought into this sh!t hole of a world, despite all the filth and famine, and on it all goes. The best part about it is this. Maybe i almost didnt make it, perhaps there is a god, and gaurdian angle out there, or some reason i walk the earth to this day, i have no idea.... but i do know this. i'm still glad i made it. despite all the bad things in this world, i still am able to see the good. Still able to exstend a hand and help someone who doesnt have it so good when i can, and above all else, even if it is so small, like the size of an atom in a sea of stars, i have, and can still make a diffence. That is something a child who is aborted will never ever have the chance to do, and if you want to claim its your right, and so on, your right begins with being responsible, if you cant handle that maybe you are right, you dont deserve to have kids in the 1st place, and are in every right as well to hang your head in shame.

Meg, I am not crying. Why are you so angry with me? Who are "people like" me? Have we met? Do you even know how old I am? Did I say "it's my body"?

Cause if you were so "its my body", you'd have a lot moore respect for it than before you had to run in and get your body taken care of. i got words for people like you who want to push blame, and lay claim its not your fault, but boy ofh boy! would i be f'ing banned.

You seem to have anger issues. Perhaps you are too emotionally vested in this for a reasonable and rational conversation. If you are concerned about getting banned, go cool off before you come back.

Megalodon

So you don't believe it is constitutional to force people to take responsibility for their own health care but you feel it is constitutional to force women to have treatments that are not necessary to their health care or force women to have babies they don't want? It's not okay for the government to tell you what to do with your money but it is okay for the government to decide what you do with your life and your health and your emotional and mental well-being? This also affects people's financial decisions. So all that is okay as long as they don't tell you what to spend your money on. Yet you'd take away other people's rights to that decision.

No offense but that is extremely hypocritical. This all boils down to what you believe and you want your beliefs legislated even if it is not constitutional.

Are you also okay with abortion being performed to save the woman's life? If so then aren't you deciding when it is okay or not okay to abort a fetus? Aren't you deciding who has more rights then?

Why is that okay? If the fetus's rights are all important than shouldn't we just take away a family's right to decide who lives and who dies in their family?

Nobody has mentioned the fact that people still take the responsibility of using birth control and still end up pregnant. Nothing in 100% except not doing it at all. And honestly if feminist hadn't come along and demanded they wanted to be men, it still may be easier to teach our children to save themselves for marriage and to create a family out of love, not lust.

Although I could not ever terminate a pregnancy because the end result of a pregnancy is this little person you helped create and love more than you ever thought possible. But my stance on abortion is just because it's not an option for me doesn't mean I have the right to make someone else think or feel the same way I do. Although I think they should always consider adoption first, who the heck am I to say what they should or should not do?

no need.... and yes, maybe it is a personal issue... what gets under my skin is people who can sit back and point the finger in every direction other than themselves. Then insread of if even ABLE to admit you they have made a mistake, take the ez way out. The same people who can not face the fact, that they might have to be resposible for their actions, and then bail. It isnt much diffrent than if you rob someone. you made a choice, you face the music. it isnt a matter of being responsible just on one persons behalf, but both, yet when it comes right down to it, all the people here crying about how it is their body, just lost the argument from the start. yes, they are right it is their body, of course it is.... but it is also their responsibility to see it thru, not run and hide in the abortion clinic, and THEN, come out say it's their body. As i said before its putting the cart before the horse after that.

if more people on this earth acted more responsible for their actions, and lived up to mistakes they have made, dont you think it might be a better place? look at our gov... its ok to lie, and decieve, and manipulate, steal, and so on...who's gonna do anything? Who takes responsibility when they get caught in a lie, and does nothing but point a finger, or say they misspoke? when someone goes before a judge and says they killed someone, but it was because of how they were raised, and yes, when you agree with someone to have unprotected sex, get pregnant, run to the first clinic you see? Who do we blame? Of course we dont accept that we made a mistake, and maybe to do right is to do whats right.

you can say a baby out of wed lock or in for that matter cant have love as a reason, but its a copout, and if you feel so strong about it there is adoption, or mental help for you....thats a right as well you know? To me tho...its murder... it taking a life, a growing entity inside, and snuffing it out. if its not living it wouldnt grow. just like a plant, or any other living entity on this planet. it may not understand, or know, but it still is living.

So yes, when people fail to accept what happens from their actions, i do have issues, becaue it is those actions that people dont want to face, and pass the buck on, that makes the world as it is this day. Its up to us as people to be accountable for our actions, be it a mistake or not, it is up to us.

So yes, when people fail to accept what happens from their actions, i do have issues, becaue it is those actions that people dont want to face, and pass the buck on, that makes the world as it is this day. Its up to us as people to be accountable for our actions, be it a mistake or not, it is up to us.

So then why are you against the health care bill? It does pretty much the same thing though it doesn't require you to have anything shoved up your hoo-hah. It requires you to take personal responsibility so that your health care bills don't become someone else's or - passing the buck on to others as you say.

actually, the HCR is passing the buck. its an insurance program the economy (that cant even sustain its own self atm), that passes that buck back to the taxpayor. when in reality you look at it its the same thing as SSI, Medicare, Medicaid, with a clause employers cant refuse someone, and EVERYONE has to be a part of.

The bill itself isnt aimed at just making sure insurance providers cant drop or refuse you, it gives those that shouldnt qualify, it allows people to go whine at the doctors office for a simple cold, or bruise, or scrape, and if no insurance other than gov provided, those who pay taxes soak up the bills. THAT is why i am against it.

The bill itself isnt aimed at just making sure insurance providers cant drop or refuse you, it gives those that shouldnt qualify, it allows people to go whine at the doctors office for a simple cold, or bruise, or scrape, and if no insurance other than gov provided, those who pay taxes soak up the bills. THAT is why i am against it.

It gives it to those that shouldn't qualify? I am a tax payer and prior to this my injury couldn't be covered because it is due to a pre-existing condition and one I was born with.

Yet my tax payer dollars gets handed to insurance in the form of subsidies. How is that fair? Why should any of my money go to an industry that offers services that I don't "qualify for"?

Why should I pay for something I am not allowed to have? Why should any of us? I'm not the only one.

I have to run. I do appreciate a civil debate even if I don't agree with you. You have a great day. :)

Meg, I think you are the only one crying because I have not read anyone else say they didn't take responsibility. Are you sure you are happy with your decision? It sounds like you are projecting your anger on others who believe it is a woman's right. Perhaps the burden was too much after all. I am sorry you want others to suffer.

Meg I wouldn't worry about what these meat rockets say. People should mind their own business. Abortions are not going anywhere and nobody can tell you what to do. And they are cheap. Much less then what their tax dollars will be paying for if they didn't have it. And while they are all on here crying about it,,,,,, oooooppppsss there goes another one. And another, and another, and another, and another, and another, and another, and another etc, etc, etc. America, Home Of The Free!!!!!!!

oh plz! you know here's the thing, and you said it yourself.... you are not forced to see what is about to be killed, just asked, altho i think you should be forced. you are given a description... so you know and are safe at the same time for your procedure. When its all over, you even get a pic you can toss on your way out the door, or pin on your fridge with a name, whatever you like, more options. YOUR problem is, you like many others who dont choose to look, are afraid if you do, you might change your mind.

Actually, you should be jumping up and down over this...it makes a point about your ability to maintain your rights. It also gives you proof that you women are always right no matter what too... i mean so whats your beef?

oooh i know, the fact that if you look you mighht be haunted even more after its all over right? well, gee i dont get it then... i mean if it is so in your right, you should be yanking the monitor from the nurse anxious to see for yourself. so what is it, a nothing or a something? sounds to me like its a something, and like most women with a certain streak, of needing to be right all the time, and knowing it all, cant look, because it shows you that your not right perhaps? that the little bean sized person inside you is a living thing, a being, not a wad of sh!t like you are about to treat it as?

Wow Megalodon.. after having to read your horrible grammer I will address this.... Woman do not go to abortion clinics to find out how well their fetus is doing. If doing an ultrasound as a safety procedure is required, (don't forget your tax dollars pay for that procedure) then so be it... HOWEVER, there is absolutely NO necessity for a nurse or doctor to go into some graffic description of what the ultrasound shows. There is NO need for the technician to turn the volume up so that the woman has to hear the indescernable noises coming from her gut. I've had 3 pregnacies and let me tell you there is no clear cut point where you hear a heartbeat or the rumblings of stomach gas until later in mid-term of the pregnancy... If a woman is at that point see my other posts. To force a woman to go through this is just cruel. Especially if the pregancy was the result of a violent act such as rape or incest.

People who are "for" abortion always bring up "especially if she is pregnant due to rape or incest". What are the percentages of such cases, as opposed to those who just don't want the baby, period, I wonder?

What about late-term abortions, partial-birth abortions? Those are all legal now, does that make them any less horrendous? Less vicious? Less callous? Less cruel?

Your tax dollars at work...how's this working out for the people?

Nobody is "for abortion".

The key word here is CHOICE. You obviously do not trust a woman to be able to make her own decisions. Gee, way to go.

speaking of grammar?...lol

People who are "for" abortion always bring up "especially if she is pregnant due to rape or incest". What are the percentages of such cases, as opposed to those who just don't want the baby, period, I wonder?

If it is even one it is one too many.

What about late-term abortions, partial-birth abortions? Those are all legal now, does that make them any less horrendous? Less vicious? Less callous? Less cruel?

The overwhelming majority of late term abortions are done to save the life of the mother. You think you should get to decide for that family who lives?

Your tax dollars at work...how's this working out for the people?

Not worth a spit because a government is supposed to protect people not subject them to unnecessary treatments in their doctors' offices to try and punish them with guilt.

punish with guilt, or give them a chance to face reality? the article in a sence said it all of the woman getting the abortion. asked to look at the monitor...didnt want to. why? because if she did, she would have to face the fact, that she is ending a life. just because someone is born in poverty, or without a father does not mean they are going to be damaged goods, never to be a member of sociatey that will do some kind of good in the world.

Maybe the doctor should also be forced to describe the actual embryonic development, i.e. at this stage in the pregnancy the embryo has no nerve function, the central nervous system isn't developed, there's no brain function to speak of and zero upper brain function. Your embryo is thus no more capable of thought or feeling than a raisin.

To be fair this explanation should be given to all pregnant women, as should the option to abort with the explanation that it is a simple procedure which now has virtually no complications. Doctors should also describe the average life time costs of raising a child and the likelihood a child will succeed based on their parents economic status. If the goal is to actually help women make an informed choice it would seem only fair. Or... we could trust women are aware of or can discover this information for themselves, and ask questions they want to know the answers to and not force them into medical procedures they don't want.

punish with guilt, or give them a chance to face reality?

They know what the reality is. For a lot of women this is a tough decision and not one made lightly. These women don't need your idea of reality. For the ones that don't care this makes no difference anyway.

just because someone is born in poverty, or without a father does not mean they are going to be damaged goods

This isn't about damaged goods. This about the right of people to make a choice about the direction of their lives without interference from other people.

If the government mandated you had to buy a car when you couldn't afford one, do you think that would be okay? Everyone is screaming about being FORCED to buy insurance. They are yelling their rights are being taken away. The hypocrisy is unreal here.

actually, maybe you need to be forced into a retake of college biology, even HS level teaches that once the nerve cells form, they are active, and at 3 weeks, they are the 1st to stary forming. Small very small yes, but present.

"i exsist, therefore i am"

it still does not deal with the fact that if people are so concerned over the rights of thier bodies, why they dont enforce safe sex in the 1st place. i mean really! your putting the cart before the horse on this one....lol.

its kind of like saying, i want to eat chocolate all the time, but i dont want to get fat, or have any type of health issues that go with it. you know what will happen if you eat nothing but that all the time, so you dont do it. common sence....

maybe if people showed they could practice being responsable by having safe sex in the 1st place, there would be no need for debate how your right is, to have an abortion at your own free will, when you dont use the rights you have in place without any to very little debate to prevent it in the 1st place! hahahaaa! i mean really! dont want to have kids use protection. how stupid can people be when they have a preventive measure, yet look for a cure?

A proto-nerve cell can send a signal, but without any upper brain function to process that signal, which you don't have until late in the third trimester, it is pretty useless. It's like saying because I have an ethernet cable somewhere in my house I need to worry about my kids watching porn on my non-existent computer.

"i exsist, therefore i am"

The doctor is obligated to treat his patient. The fetus is not the patient. Every decision made between a doctor and a pregnant woman is about her and IF she wants to keep it the fetus the fetus as well but by law the doctor is expected to protect the woman first unless she chooses to put her own life at risk. This is always about her decision and should be.

it still does not deal with the fact that if people are so concerned over the rights of thier bodies, why they dont enforce safe sex in the 1st place. i mean really! your putting the cart before the horse on this one....lol.

The people who want kids kept stupid and not on birth control are the problem here. The ones against the morning after pill are the problem here.

maybe if people showed they could practice being responsable by having safe sex in the 1st place, there would be no need for debate how your right is, to have an abortion at your own free will, when you dont use the rights you have in place without any to very little debate to prevent it in the 1st place! hahahaaa! i mean really! dont want to have kids use protection. how stupid can people be when they have a preventive measure, yet look for a cure?

Mistakes happen. Should you be forced pay for a mistake you made for the rest of your life?

So I take it you are okay with mandated insurance. After all it is just forcing people to take responsibility isn't it?

Go back to school, folks.

The Latin is cogito ergo sum. It means "I think, therefore I am." NOT "I exist, therefore I am."

Think = upper brain function. NOT in existence in early and mid-term fetus development.

I agree about birth control-a high school where I live wanted to make it available to students without the consent of their parents. Of course, it didn't happen because people had such a fit about it. I am sure those are the same people that when one of those girls gets pregnant, would subject her to an unnecessary ultrasound before she aborted her pregnancy.

ERIS i must say you are my hero against people who in my opinion have no clue about what the heck their talking about. AND to all people out their on on here thank you THANK YOU because some who are pro life and fellow pro choosers still have the respect to know and understand that it's not your fetus that women who choose to have an abortion know that it isn't a day at the spa and that women do know the reality of their decision like women who choose to have a baby know the reality and understand the responsibility of raising a baby. Women considering abortion talk to doctors, get the fact, weigh their decision and try to see how having or aborting a baby will do to them. We already saw the pictures, learned about the procedure, the risks, the options, the Facts. We already talked to our families, our school, our boss. We have cried, kicked, screamed, prayed over the decision on what should we do. AND when there was no more tears we saw our answer to keep or abort. You see I understand that women who get pregnant go threw the almost the same process of deciding to keep their baby, they get information, talk to doctors, their boss, and family and depending how things will work out if they can work out is what leads all women to THEIR choice to keep or to abort. In the end pro lifers & pro choicer, their is no divide amongst women because once you get pregnant you go threw the same process that every woman who has even been pregnant goes threw and YOU make the your decision to keep or abort based on what you feel is best for you and the fetus because no one and nothing else matters. I knew a pro lifer we always butted heads on this topic until one day she got pregnant and went threw the same thought process as all women go threw and she realized in no way was she personally ready to raise a child. Things change when it happens to you and not a stranger.

as far as being ASKED if the woman wants to look at the monitor, its is her choice. she doent HAVE to look. She should tho. why not? its your body right, you have a right to see whats going to be scraped, or forced from it. every right. You also have the right to see what life, be it you want to admit it or not if it wasnt a life, it would not be growing, to see it before it dies, to hear the sound it makes, even if you have nooo idea what it is, and YES to hear it's heart beating if that far along! YES you should hear it, because then YOU or THAT person knows, and can get your head back in reality, and maybe wake you up, maybe not stop the abortion, but give you something to think about the next time you allow someone inside you, without using protection, and just "pass the buck" off to someone else to do YOUR dirty work, because YOU cant accept what YOU did, and be held accountable!

Sure Megaladon-

And when the government requires that YOU have a procedure that you don't want done-DON'T WORRY-you don't have to look.

as far as being ASKED if the woman wants to look at the monitor, its is her choice.

She should not be forced to get one in the first place.

You should not be forced to get any treatment that you do not want. Especially when it is not medically necessary.

Especially when it is not medically necessary.

is every abortion necessary? really? then why not face what your next action is? why no know about what it is that is going to be removed? you are asked if you want to see a tumor when you have the same ultra sound right? or any other abnormality with the body when they check you out, why is this any diffrent?

they go ever the description of the tumor or abnormaliy with you in the room, most while talking into a recorder of some sort to take notes later, or have someone describe what is going on in the ultra sound while you are being exsamined....what's your point then? WHY should this be any diffrent than a tumor, when it is being treated as such?

If men could get pregnant, abortion would be a sacrament.

Megalodon

Comparing an abortion to a tumor is a good one, but here's the rub. Male or Female nobody ever wants to keep a tumor around for nine months. Pregnancy is something that only effects the Female populace.

Most people who think abortion should be illegal believe that abortions are only ever performed on loose, irresponsible, and immoral women. From your previous comments on responsibility and the like I can see that you fall into this category.

I used to feel the way you do, but then guess what I had a baby. Unless you are a woman you will never ever be able to understand the drastic amount of change your body goes though, puberty's got nothing on it. If you have children you then know how much that changed your life.

Not all women that get abortions are using it as birth control, not all of them are immoral, nor or they trying to shirk their responsibility. In spite of what you might think for some of these women their choice not to keep their child was the most responsible choice they have ever made. It is a heavy and weighted decision that in the end is their decision.

Humans are hardwired to desire sex, its a survival of the species imperative. Nobody is perfect and contraception can fail, says so on the box. And if you think that people are going to stop having sex...well we can wait and see how that works out.

You equate having an unwanted child to a punishment. A child is a gift that not all are ready to receive...yet. Having a child is a great responsibility, one that not all people are ready for. A child is not an inanimate object, it is a living breathing entity that as a parent you are to mold into the best possible adult they can be.

Making a person have a child simply based on the punishment and forced responsibility standard is the worst decision we can make as a society.

So funny my husband just said it so succinctly...its never been about abortion or saving lives its about control, if you lock up a woman's thighs you lock up the object of temptation.

Casual sex is for men only...because if a woman has casual sex she can get pregnant and therefore may have an abortion, a social stigma that can never be placed on a man.

re: #6. Robert Erickson - Well said. ^ ^

Fine. Because of its life safing potential then you should be forced by government to have a colonoscopy every year, even if it's against your will. Not for that? What are you, pro-colon cancer or something?

Good point Robert. We shouldn't dehumanize life. We should respect these women enough to know that they have come to the decision to have an abortion and not have to be forced to view an ultrasound. Women do have upper brain function at this time of their lives so they are quite capable of making the correct decisions for themselves and their own bodies.

Abortion clinics already have their patients undergo ultrasound testing to identify stage of pregnancy. What is not done is sharing this image with the patient for a multitude of reasons.

Voted up, Robert Erikson

I guess you people must be for universal healthcare then. That has been proven to save lives. And war? That would definitely be a NO.

Having your life snuffed out without anyone speaking up is quite an intrusion Dave. Being so morally numb, that's what is stunning.

Robert.... at the gestational age of these fetuses there is NO life.. NO sentiencense whatsoever. These fetus's cannot live outside the mother.. Therefore they are nothing more then any other parasitic organisim that requires a host to survive. I am against late term abortions execpt in cases where mother or fetus or both would not survive the birth process. I also am against mid-term abortions. If a woman doesn't know she's pregnant by 15 weeks or so she's an idiot or in denial. At that point resources should be available to help her bring that baby sucessfully to term and help her place the baby for adoption. However, if a woman discovers that she is pregnant (usually after missing a period) at roughly 6-10 weeks and chooses to have an abortion I believe she should have the ability to get that abortion safely and with dignity.

BTW --- I'm the Stepparent of a micro-preemie. My step son was born at 26 weeks....and survived. What a young man he is now.

i am for a person taking responsability for their own actions. if a victim of rape or incest, that person didnt have too much choice did they? However as an adult, we have to learn to be resposibile. look at kids today once... they see responsibility as a tool, something they can avoid to be at all cost till the age of 18, then what? The gov forces them to be wit laws that try them as adults. Yet at the same time, strips parents the right to punish them, when harsh punshment is warranted. Yet when it comes to being responsible for our own actions, where does that leave us?

Abortion is just a tool, one tha women can jump up and down over as a special right only THEY can have, and so be it. Everyone wants to have a special something, even if it is a law just for them, like a dozen roses from her sweetie. The law however should be reseved for those that are a victim, not ones who chose to put themselves there. be it any case. last thing i need is one more child, hard to afford the ones i have now, but then for 16 yrs, i have taken the steps to make sure it doesnt happen again. No reason why a woman cant. There are plenty of options out there for both sex's that can prevent pregnancy, perhaps using them, before hand despite whatever romantic feelings you have for eachother, is being more responsible, and putting your "god given right" to a better use. You have a right if you dont want to get pregnant, to use protection. You also fail to see that with that right, it makes you more responsable than going in for an abortion, and is a lot cheaper, and less emotional.

They are living inside the mother. That is, until they are ripped out. They are the first steps in the joy of another human life. Shall we kill all mutes, simply because they cannot speak? What's that, ridiculous? Of course it is. If you are intelligent enough to construct that convoluted logic leading to the death of an innocent, then you have the mental capacity to reason out how wrong it it. Use it.

Robert... when a fetus gets to the point that it could survive without it's host parent then by all means feel the joy... However, up until that point keep your personal religious views out of a womans body.... Pro-lifers like to use the harshest words imaginable such as you using the term 'ripped'. Also, pro-lifers nearly always come up with a connection between abortion and the Nazi's systematically exterminating 22 million people during WWII. I find that disgraceful.

I wish that prolifers would put half as much effort into protesting the abusive treatment of animals, which by the way is against the law, then they do harassing women who find themselves having to make a very hard decision.

My views are not based on religion. They are also not subject to you or your attempted censorship. It's encouraging that you are capable of seeing mass exterminations as wrong. Hopefully, you'll someday be able to complete that though process.

Wow Robert seems you do not like when people disagree with you....

I've done nothing to try to 'censor' you in anyway.... I've replied to your posts. After insluting me and my inteligence I will still ask you this.. IF your views are not religious based then on what basis do you base your opinions on? Is it on a scientific basis? If it is a moral basis on which or who's morals do you base your opinion on? Where or by whom where your morals instilled?

I believe that you began the negative language. If you wish to proceed without it, I would find that preferable. However, I will respond in kind.

I wish the people who care so much about a woman's decision to end her pregnancy gave half as much attention tot he actual born, living people of the world. You know, the people we kill in all those invasions overseas, all the people homeless, living on welfare, domestic violence victims...the religious right supports these wars, is against any sort of social safety net and think that a woman's place is in the home subservient to her husband. But they'll go to any length necessary to prevent the "slaughter" of an embryo.

Robert.... I did ask you in my previous post on which basis to you base your opinion on. And will eagerly await your answer.

Moral beliefs (including those one might have against abortion) are not the exclusive property of religion. I am agnostic, and I have a very firm set of moral standards and beliefs that guide my life and my actions. I'm not saying I agree with Robert here, but I don't see how the basis of his morals matter.

hmmmm....tell me does something that is dead grow? of course not, altho things may grow from it.

so if it grows, it lives, would be a safe guess, but lets over look that 1 little concept about life... never seen a dead thing, or a nothing grow. a ftus must be alive, right of course it is, no dispute on that so lets not twist it too much pro choicers....starting to look bad....on your own part, like grasping for straws or some thing....lol.

fact is with every little want to be fact, i can come up with reality, as well many of others here can. simple reality is tho, abortion is nothing more than being a coward, unable to face the responsibility they already knew what the outcome was for not taking precaustions, and then bailing.... simple, all too simple. personally, no diffrent than murder, legally.

Megalo,

A blade of grass grows too. Should all grass be protected from the murderers who would mow all the innocent victims down?

For all your "reality," we can come up with facts that refute it. There's nothing cowardly about having an abortion but since you're a man, it's easy for you to call women who exercise their choice names. Sometimes birth control fails. Sometimes people (women and men) make bad decisions when they're h*rny. But, as a man, you're all in favor in ruining women's lives for those failures and bad decisions. Nice! You must be so proud of yourself.

somtimes, maybe it does, but only can you say that if you use it, and willing to bet that 99.9% of the abortions/ births are because of not using it, or any other means to PREVENT it from happening. you talk of grass....ok yes it is a living thing, you can kill it, and not be punished by law, of course. becuase what funtion after all does grass serve other than basic need other than to exsist? The point of putting a blde of grass next to a fetus is irrelevant in its nature for the fact, the grass is not something that has any type of real effect on how our daily lives go by letting it make a choice.

Fact is fact, 1st you want to say it feels nothing (proven plant life can essentially feel pain), yet referr to it as a parasite, rather than a being. It however is a being, just like any other creature on this earth, who needs a parent to bring it to a point where it can survive on its own. As our children grow, they can still be considered a parasite, they NEED the partent, or A parent to survive, to teach them and to learn skills, without that they would most likely die. Once a baby is born does it obtain food on its own, automatically learn right from wrong, or know the skills it needs to make in the world? So then it is still a parasite that feeds off the have of others. just because it has left your body, does not change the nature of its survival. it is in a stage that no longer needs your PROTECTION inside you, id the only diffrence when it leaves the womb, a stage of life to be put easier to understand.

"The point of putting a blde of grass next to a fetus is irrelevant in its nature for the fact, the grass is not something that has any type of real effect on how our daily lives go by letting it make a choice."

I thought it would be obvious why I put a "blde of grass next to a fetus." You have previously put great emphasis on the fact that a fetus grows, therefore it is a life. I'm just pointing out that lots of things grow. It doesn't give those things any special status.

After that, your second paragraph just got bizarre. You attributed things to me I never said. I can't unravel the "logic" in your paragraph, so I'm not even going to try to deal with that.

Megalo,

A blade of grass grows too. Should all grass be protected from the murderers who would mow all the innocent victims down?

For all your "reality," we can come up with facts that refute it. There's nothing cowardly about having an abortion but since you're a man, it's easy for you to call women who exercise their choice names. Sometimes birth control fails. Sometimes people (women and men) make bad decisions when they're h*rny. But, as a man, you're all in favor in ruining women's lives for those failures and bad decisions. Nice! You must be so proud of yourself.

Well said, plus one for you CaroJay :)

And Megalo- don't we all "just exist" or are you insinuating that we have some greater purpose? A lot of people would disagree with that.

can believe as you like...just like you can choose to be responsible for your actions, or hide from the result. it isnt about rights to your body, its about rights of another body, despite the fact it lives inside someone, it is still a body, an entity, an exsistance. That much you cant argue over, because it is there, therfore it is.

What the actual problem is accepting the consequence of your actions, obviously, haveing an abortion is the result of someone who has not the courage, common sence, or the power to acceot what they have done, and hope nothing more to have it scraped away, so they can forget about it. If you care about yourself, prove it, dont get pregnant. if you do, take care of it, because it no matter how you want to look at it, is still your responsibility. it needs you to live for longer than 9 mos, it needs you for yrs.... after it leaves the body. therefore when conception happens, its a living being, just starting to grow.

No courage, common sense, or accountability? I think an abortion is a pretty good reality check-who are you to judge those women that have been in that position. I'm sure most of them have more balls than you ever will.

Not that I disagree that preventing pregnancy is easier-and more responsible. However, you cannot expect perfection from people, we are all human, we all have our faults and we all make mistakes. So just because these women have done something that YOU deem "immoral" they must be held to a higher standard? Get off your high horse megalo!

Robert, Meglo

You're men right? If so that means you will never have to go through an abortion or the even have to entertain the thought. So how can you judge?

Let he who is without sin cast the first stone. There are always circumstances that you will never understand until you are faced with those same tough choices.

@ bnbreilly,

saying that a woman is an idiot or in denial for not knowing she is pregnant by 15 weeks is NOT fair at all. with my youngest daughter I had my menstrual for 5 months, never gain weight and had no pregnancy symptoms whatsoever. The ONLY reason I found out that I was pregnant was because I went to get my tubes tied as a birthday present to myself, go figure huh? And before people wanna get crazy, i was on Depo and we used condoms, we are just VERY fertile people I suppose!!!

Yolie.... I am not saying that some women don't know.... But in reality women such as yourself are a rareity... Some deny the possibility of being pregnant too long... some just don't understand the signs their body is putting out..... A vast majority of women ( 15-29 I believe is the majority of women who seek abortion) miss a period, wait to see if the missed period is from stress and then see doctor... total elapsed time 8-10 weeks when the most abortions take place.

@ bnbreilly , a girl that I went to school with had morning sickness her entire 9 months and had her period the entire 9 months as well, really sucked

Amazing ain't it?

They feel it's ok because it doesn't affect THEM.

Make your case. Who, when, where and how?

Make your case. Who, when, where and how?

Mandated insurance.

Look at all the people calling Obama communist because of it. A lot of these are the exact same people that are for this abomination of institutional rape.

no, because as far as someone who was raped, or as incest goes, we all know it is wrong, and the woman had no choice in the matter, of what happend. it was a forced pregnancy, and over all, almost everyone here, including myself can understand that....despite, morals, or what have you.

As has been pointed out already, women who are raped or become pregnant from incest are not exempted under the law. They are forced, probably against their will, to have the ultrasound. If you do not support this then you should be against this law, plain and simple.

So Meglo, woman should not be able to have sex because she might get pregnant? Even married woman have abortions, should married women not have sex?

No phillip you aren't.... You are 'killing' a mass of cells that more resemble a tadpole then a human.... go take a biology class.... That is the biggest misconception pro-lifers extole.... Human life doesn't start till BIRTH.... While I am against mid and late term abortions (see post above) if a woman chooses to terminate a pregnancy at 6-10 weeks leave her the heck alone, it's her decision to make and her consequences to deal with.

Twisted!! 28 years in NICU I have held babies 23 wks and 11 oz in my palm! keep telling yourself it is not a baby helps soothe the guilt of 35 million dead babies! sooooo twisted.

lol did take biology class...and looking at a tadpole, you will see it has a spine, nerves, and so on, meaning that it is a living essence.

These are people who will ruin California's agricultural industry to save a guppy, and then turn around and snuff out a human life without a second thought.

Human life had to begin at conception, a living essence that grew into the baby that became you, and you, and you, and me.

Father God, please give people the wisdom to save the babies and please help people take responsibility for their own sexuality. In Jesus' name I pray. Amen. Vi Vi ^ ^ CoH please.

Robert - much of the pro lifers / christian right run around to meddle in a womans right to choose as if you all are "better people" and have such care for human life, yet much of the message from the christian right is of intolerance and hate towards humanity as well. Hate Gays, hate muslims, hate non believers, in general, just HATE. So yes save the guppies... stop using your one sided arguments on one issue, and then be the most hateful disgraceful group i know in this country towards humanity.

I don't hate any of those people or you. I hear a great deal of it in your comment, however. Have you spent a lot of time with me that I am somehow unaware of?

yes robert i have. I sneak into your bedroom at night and sometimes just cuddle with you.

The would explain the rash. (:

lol

Ok... really bad mental image from Robert and Patrick... LOL

Phillip my step-son is a micro-preemie now 14 years old. He's a wonderful kid with thankfully few residual problems from his early birth. I agree abortions at 20 weeks or more should be banned unless to save the life of the mother. And that only after doctors know that the child could not survive (i.e other medical complications). However I do realize that the costs of treating micro preemies is astronomical at best, it is a cost worth baring. Prior to the ability of the fetus to survive outside the womb (conception to say 10weeks) the decision should be left up to the woman and her doctor alone. I would even go so far to say that from 10 weeks until viability (20 weeks) a woman should be counseled as to ALL her options by her doctor and at minimum an on staff psychologist. I would also say that from 15 weeks to that 20week timeframe a woman be required to inform the potential father unless in case of rape, incest, or (so-called) one night stand. Should the potential father be against the woman having an abortion then he should be required to pay all medical expense to bring the baby to term, and be required to register for automatic child support payments.

I'm sure alot of women will be against me for this attitude. But as an adoptee I do not take 'life' lightly and agree that all measures should be taken to preserve life. But ultimately up until viability it is the woman's choice. I just don't see what making it difficult to use abortion as 'birth control' has to be demeaning to woman across the board. I bet if there are more stringent protocols in place regarding how, when and where an abortion can be performed alot more women and men will take responsibility for unwanted pregnacies. Prevention education is also a must as well and more relaxed adoption laws that allow good women and men to adopt a child.

You are killing a baby. This is what you have to justify.

If it is a living essence then we should allow it to be taken out to live on it's own.

It should be able to after all shouldn't it? It's a person.

And if it's 3 weeks out of the womb, we'll tell it to go out and play, but watch the cars, please!

Eris, that stupid remard doesnt even deserve comment....lol

Neither does the "killing a baby" crap.

lol..... says you tho right?

Well said.....

If the pro-lifers want to abolish abortion then they should step up and offer to personally adobt these children when they are born....

Many do, so do some pro-abortioners.

You are absolutely right. While I would not encourage a woman to have an abortion. If a woman of sound mind decides to get and abortion an it meets the legal requirements then government should stay out of it. Theses pro lifers don't want to pay taxes to fund public schools, or social welfare agencies or any of the things that these unfortunate children will need to be productive citizens. Then to make matters worse. They block the teaching of meaningful sex education to young people who have these babies out of ignorance.

Robert... please tell me WHERE...

I'm adopted, I do alot of volunteer work with Adoptees and Adoptive parents.... and NEVER have I come across a pro-life activist who has stepped up to help a pregnant women bring an unwanted pregnancy to term and personally adopt the resulting baby....

AMEN!!!!

(unfairbala) As much as i understand the point you are making, i will object to the insinuation or characterization that this is an inner city projects problem. The abortions are done across the board in all communities. I fully support the womans right to choose, but again, your comments about having prolifers support and adopt etc are very good. But the projects and depiction of low lifes is tainted with a racist view it sounds like. So if that is not the intent, thought i would just give my opinion and correction.

bnbreilly. My oldest son's girlfriend. They plan to do the same when married. There are also several at the church I attend. Just for starters. Is it possible that the circles we travel in will impact the people we meet? Seriously, that's not a negative comment.

lol.... you guys kill me, seriouisly....

for starters... you all want the respoibility to make your own choices, when you cant make the right ones to begin with. You want the responsibility to make your own choice? Make it where it counts, BEFORE YOU GET PREGNANT! YOU have a choice, not to have sex without the proper contraceptives to prevent getting pregnant. for male and female both. His and hers condoms, gels, pills, this that, and what have you? Yet when it comes down to it, when all you have to say is no sexy sexy till you wrap your willy, or i do this, you ignore it, and skip the part where responsibility counts.

You can rant up whatever excuse you want to about how condoms break, and this and that, but heres the deal.... you dont use them anyway, so why even try to exsplain it?

YOU want to gripe about rights, and responsibility? Then do the gieping where it counts, when you have all these other options to prevent getting pregnant, you'd rather get an abortion than use them, is what i see in these posts.

Soon it will follow, "some relgions dont let you use those things like spermicide and so on". if thats the case, you shouldnt be having sex till your married either then. Sure it goes both ways... but here's the deal... if you want to have sex, you NEED to be responsible. Laying on your back getting a life scraped out of you isnt that way. Useing what people have to offer so it doesnt get to that point is! plain and simple. Yet here we are all pissing and moaning in eachothers wheaties, skipping the main reason why it happens in the 1st place.

Because people fail to take responsibility .... you want to show how your rights are being violated, when you dont even use the ones you have at hand as it is? c'mon...

mega - some of the highest teenage/ single mom pregnancy and births is in the red states south. So is the highest level of divorce. So is the highest level of ignorance. So yes it is nice to say be responsible, but it is more real to realize that our bodies are geared to arousal and in the heat of passion often times we lose rationale thinking. So, yes, i agree, much effort needs to go into education about using protection - but abstinence is really a silly approach to try and consider.

i said nothing about abstinence did i? nope, not one time other than just now. i did say taking responsibility, and you yourself just acted like the word meant less than the right to an abortion. heat of passion or not, it is time for people to take account for their own actions, and the only way to do it, is to realise what it is you did in the 1st place. Practice what you preach.... if you want the responsibilty to make a choice for an abortion, you should have started with the responsibility to use protection, or to say NO. You have the right to say NO, with more laws that protect you, when you say it than the right to have an abortion, but dont use it. passion or not, it is a lack of being responsible from the start, and want to fix it later after the fact, yet not face the life you are about to end is just silly. Want your cake, there it is, look at it on the monitor....

Robert... I wish them luck in adopting. It is not an easy process. One thing they will have to do before an adoption is allowed is to prove their complete health record. If your son's girlfriend is anything like me, there is little if absolutely NO information. And what information there maybe is askewed. I was adopted through Catholic Charities.. my adoptive parents were lied to as to my origins... As I grew older and had a medical necessity to find out my medical history it became clear that I was not the product of the so called union that Catholic Charities represented.

I have people I counsel who would gladly adopt and be able to afford any number of children... However, current adoption laws prohibit them from doing so because of a complete health history or because of medical problems in the past that prevents them from being able to have their own children.

MEGA - here is an excerpt of YOUR words... (if thats the case, you shouldnt be having sex till your married either then)

To me this sure sounds like abstinence......

Let all the free choicers join in and say abortion should never be used for convenience or as a type of birth control.

As a matter of fact, no-one has the moral right to sex outside of marriage.

As a matter of fact, no-one has the moral right to sex outside of marriage.

And who are you to tell people that? What gives you the right to tell someone what they can't do with their body, according to your own morals?

Self-centered people like you who won't learn what the word 'no' means, even when it is nature saying it, have tossed over the reigns(?) and created a world where consequences of licentious behavior have caused this issue.

"And who are you to tell people that? What gives you the right to tell someone what they can't do with their body, according to your own morals?"

and what planet do you live on.....guess what...having unprotected sex is going to get you pregnant....thats a fact of biology...read a book....i agree if you were being responsable....and empowered about your body and health...you would not have an unwanted preganacy....but noooo....you want to be as irresponsible as possible...and not have to deal with the consiquences......abortion is not only anti life,,,,its anti women...and illustrative of blatant ignorance and stupidity ....women who have unwanted pregnancies are self absorbed morons.....with the exception of the very few extreme cases of rape and incest and a severely handicapped fetus,..there is no excuse.....its irresponsibility to the core....shame on you, shame on you.

and tom343....you're being completely disengenuous....as if any pro-choicers out there are saying abortion should not be used as birth control....the vast majority of abortions are used as birth control...thanks to folks like you.

women who have unwanted pregnancies are self absorbed morons...

Might want to read the fine print on your next pack of Trojans. Short of abstinence no birth control is 100% and there are many legitimate reasons why a woman may not want to carry a pregnancy to term. Personally I think women who unintentionally become pregnant and don't at least consider abortion are morons. The decision to bring a child into this world shouldn't be taken lightly.

"no birth control is 100 percent effective"...crap.....you want to pass out condoms at school....and claim that teaching abstinence doesn't work....but when it comes to abortion you idiots suddenly are like...."ohhh but birth control doesn't work".....booo-hooo.....dont have sex....and you wont get pregnant....and read a dam biology book....morons.

ok so im gay., do you personally have to worry about getting pregnant? I would think with a name like "ok so im gay" would indicate that pregnancy should not be a concern.

Birth control with limited effectiveness is better than no birth control at all. Don't have sex? We're biologically driven to have sex. Unintended pregnancies happen even with responsible people. I know plenty of responsible married women who've unintentionally become pregnant. Abortion can be a responsible option for people who find themselves unintentionally pregnant.

"do you personally have to worry about getting pregnant?"

no....because im not an idiot....i happen to understand that when a man and a woman have unprotected sex that there is a high likelyhood of pregnacy....only stupid people have unwated pregnancies.

"We're biologically driven to have sex"

duhhh...because we are biolgically driven to breed....and if you cannot figure out that having sex is goiung to result in a sucessfull breeding then you need a lobotomy...you actually can control yourself...believe it or not...and as shocking as it might seem....outside of rape...sex is not accidental....its an intentional act that has consiquences, ,...one of which is an unintended pregnancy.....the others are risk of HIV infection...HPV infection..syphilis...etc etc....and some of these diseases are now immune to any medications....if you want to play Russian roulett....then you're an idiot....idoits should not be allowed to breed...or have sex....because all they do is spread their death around.

....idoits should not be allowed to breed...or have sex....

But since idiots do have sex and get pregnant, by your own logic of not allowing them to breed you seem to support forced abortion.

"by your own logic of not allowing them to breed you seem to support forced abortion."

no....but by your logic you should have no problem with forced abortions, why the concern?.....my alternative would be forced sterilizations.

by your logic you should have no problem with forced abortions, why the concern?.....

No, I'm all for choice. Choose to have sex or not, choose to have an abortion or not, choose to give it up for adoption or not. I'm against women forced to have ultrasounds or forced to carry a pregnancy to term. I'm not sure what in any of my postings could lead you to believe I think the government should be able to force a woman to do anything with her body.

because people are stupid....and irresponsable...someone with a brain, has to step in, or you idiots will just kill your stupid selves off.....anyone who is stupid enough to need an abortion should be sterilized perminantly.....then you can all do the viral load death march like the lemmings that you are.

someone with a brain, has to step in, or you idiots will just kill your stupid selves off.....

You really think readily allowing abortion will kill off the human race? In the thirty years since Roe. v. Wade the U.S. population has increased by fifty percent, adding another 100 million people to the mix. I don't think abortion will result in us killing ourselves off anytime soon, though ironically exponential population growth certainly might.

"You really think readily allowing abortion will kill off the human race?"

no ....only the stupid abourtion advocates will kill themselves off....the rest will continue to have children.

Yeah, the religious right pro-life crowd really represent the height of intellect in our society, good thing only those stupid pro-choicers have abortions. <sarc> The movie Idiocracy comes to mind.

HAHAHA Idiocracy is the scariest movie ever made.

ok so im gay

do you engage in carnal relations? Are you married or have a civil union since you are gay? Are you male? And since people of the same sex cannot procreate why are you so inflamed by this discussion? There are certainly more than enough children already here if you are concerned about adoption.

If the plan B pill was readily available without having to jump through about a million hoops then maybe there would not be as many clinical abortions.

Really this all goes back to women having sex before marriage. You ask people to be perfect, but look in the mirror as you say "It would never happen to me".

Equating a child to a consequence of one action, as if they are a punishment is vile. A child is a gift that not all are ready to receive.

see there ya go..... nobody said that victims of rape or incest should. but here id the thing....

YOUR RIGHTS??? you have them... there is the condom, spermicide, bc, and much more, you have a RIGHT to use them. YOU have a RIGHT to say no sex uless you have something, and you dont use it!?!? yet you want to cry about rights for aborting a perfectly healty baby....lmao!

what you mean is... YOU have a right to have unprotected sex, anytime you feel like it, and at the same time, if you get pregnant, have the right to abort, without having to see what you are about to do, and not have that reminder to help you think twice about having unsafe sex again in the future? is that it?

Megalodon-358694 - Well said and AMEN!

taken from the article: not my words at all

Many leave in tears
Oklahoma’s new law exempts women who need an abortion for emergency medical reasons. But it does not allow exceptions for victims of rape or incest. Sorry i had to copy and paste this part of the article. It seems that you two above have not understood or thoroughly read the article nor takin into account what was just said it's plain english so i hope you can now understand.

It's much easier to read the whole thing than to comment and not even be correct about what your saying amen to that.

By the way Megalodon what is a persons sex life have to do with you or me? I don't care what goes behind closed doors.

"By the way Megalodon what is a persons sex life have to do with you or me? I don't care what goes behind closed doors."

because sex is what causes pregnancy.....duhh....if you want to avoid the hassle of an abortion then use protection....if you want to avoid an HIV infection then use protection....and stop crying about how your rights are being violated....as i see it....if you don't use protection during sex...then you own the consiquences,...instead of killing the baby....they should make you greedy ignorant self absorbed morons....take a test before you have sex to see if your mentally able to understand how to put a dam condom on....and if you still refuse to protect your self then you should be forced to carry to term...then give the child up...then have your tubes tied permanently because stupid people shouldn't be allowed to breed....there are very few excuses for unwanted pregancies....otherwise its just plan and simple ignorance....smart people don't have unwanted pregnancies....only stupid people.

Wow this coming from someone who thinks they know a lot. First in order to get your tubes tied you have to pass a series of questions, second you already must have a child ( sometimes more than one).There are stipulations regarding age. Oh and the doctor must approve of it. Lets see and you have to be mentally stable to go through this process and have no regrets. Oh and having your tubes cut, tied and burned has no guaranty of permanent birth control after a couple of years they can grow back ( also know as a tubal-ligation). So we will add you to the mix of not breeding. I know the stipulations that go with the procedure because i had to beg to have it done being 31 years of age with children and married.

And Smart people do still wind up having unwanted pregnancy's they just pay to have an abortion out of pocket so no one will know. which i have no problem with that either.

.

"And Smart people do still wind up having unwanted pregnancy's they just pay to have an abortion out of pocket so no one will know. which i have no problem with that either."

not smart...they just have money to pay for thier irresponsability.

if you read a few of my other posts on this, you can see, i have all the room in the world to talk. See, it's like this.... you walk up to any person who had only one parent, and ask them, if your mom had aborted you, would you be ok with that? silly question, but yet still, why not ask? a miscarriage was tried when i was in the womb, and altho i dont like a lot of the things in this world, starting from when i am able to remember, there is this.... i have a lot more good things that take the bad away, than one can imagine. i got to live and exsperiance a full life, well ahead of my time, and see, and do things others could only dream of. i have beautiful kids, who want to do good in the world, see other people happy, and will exstend a hand to someone if they need it and can help.

despite my hardships, i can see where they have taught me to be a better person, who actually turned out better than his brothers, who had both natural parents as children growing up. Sure i can sit and cry about stuff, just like anyone here, about rights and so on. i didnt have a choice being brought into this world, it happend tho, and i personally am glad it did.

This is faulty logic. Practically anyone who is born and develops sentience appreciates it, but that doesn't give those of us who are alive any responsibility to create as many lives as possible. If that were the case we'd all have to breed non stop so that we could make as many little potential people as possible come to fruition.

we are all here capable of understanding, to know what is right what is wrong, and that our actions or inactions, make us who we are, agreed? That as a being, oart of our role is to know right, from wrong, with the brain given to us, and that what are actions, no matter what they maybe, have an effect on our lives as we live them each day. If i choose with my partner to not practice birth control, then i assume the responsibility that goes with it. Just as i would if i had chose to use it.

If we both decided not to use it, we both know or assume if she gets pergnant, abortion is not really an option, because we have an option to not let that happen. Therefore we accept the responsibility for our actions, as adults. As 2 people that are ready to have sex, know what risks are involved to go with it, protected, or not, and taking that seriously.

If you choose not to use protection, you cant tell me you dont know ahead of time the risks that go with it can you? if you do, you have to be a complete idiot, uneducated moron. This is something we are aware of before we even hit puberty for crying out loud, but still, ignore it. So then you want someone to take earnest in what you say when you make claims as to how its "your body"? lol give me a break. you have a choice, we all do....the diffrence is, when you get an abortion, your choice is to be a coward, or self centerd, and use the "its my body" thing as a protective wall. if you were so concerned, about it....well you get the point, but if you dont, just goes to show your own mentality when it comes to useing the brain you have, over the self centerd little world you live in, thats my opinion any way.

Ok so I'm Gay-

How about we pass a law that requires all gay people to be tested for HIV and every other STD on a yearly basis? I mean, since you gays can't be responsible and use protection.

Yea, I bet you'd be marching in Washington to protest that, now wouldn't you?

Perhaps YOU are responsible-but hey, you're gay so we'll just judge you based on all the other gays actions. That's no different than you saying all of these women are "morons" based on the irresponsible actions of some. I'm disappointed, I would think that being GAY, you'd have an open mind-but hey, like I pointed out, not everyone is the same.

Megalo,

"if your mom had aborted you, would you be ok with that?" Well, I have 2 parents but yes, (even though stupid question... which means you shouldn't be allowed to breed) I would theoretically be OK with it if my mother had theoretically decided to abort me. Sounds pretty good to me! No pain. No sadness. My life isn't bad, but every person that's ever born has to endure pain and loss. Seems to me that not having to experience any of that would be bliss (theoretically).

no, actually i wouldnt have, she had a chance to and backed out of it. my grandmother then tried an attempt to have her miscarry, failed. Do i wish ever that she would have gone thru with it, or my grandmoother successful? f* no. as crappy as i think of how my life was, or is, doesnt make up for the things i have got to see and exsperiance for my own. Had i been robbed of that and able to kick someone's azz from here to hell and back i would.... good....and...hard too trust me. but sad as it is, those little ones cant fight for themselves. good thing i imagine....

Megalodon... thing is with your arguement... Had either your mother or grandmother been successful.... YOU would no nothing of it... the fact that they weren't and proceeded to tell you all about their dirty little secret... well that tells me they want/wanted you to be way too grateful to them.....

Abortion is the root of evil? Nice that you gave us your opinion, but it's YOUR opinion and you have no right to shove your opinion down anyone's throat.

Since CaroJay has pointed out how ridiculous it is to claim an opinion as fact, I'll tear into your "abortion is harmful for society".

First, in another post, I cited, from the CDC, that in 2005 82% of women who had abortions were UNMARRIED. So, if those women had decided not to have an abortion, most of them probably would be single mothers. In 2006, 12.9 million families were single parent families-80% of those were headed by a female. Single parent families are at a higher risk for poverty, generally a single mother has poorer health, and although a lot of children from a single parent home will do just fine-studies have shown that there is a strong association between single parent homes and range of negative social, behavioral, and emotional outcomes. Are you prepared to use your tax dollars to pay for the welfare they would receive? Or to pay for the prisons, if the child doesn't become a good citizen? Point being, it costs us much more in money as a country and also has a social impact when those children grow up and aren't educated, contributing members.

I won't even mention how it would affect adoption. We all know that's a screwed up system-why would we want to add more children to it? Another steep cost at the expense of our whole society.

Secondly, how many more damn people do we need? Think of this like an unsubsidized student loan-they ask you, would you like to pay the interest as it accrues, or would you like it added to the principal? Well, everyone knows, that when it is added to the principle, that principle keeps increasing and so does the interest that is added to it. Thus, you pay WAY more. This is the same thing. +6 billion is our principle-the 170 babies born every minute is our interest. Our principle will keep increasing, and so will our interest-which in turn makes our principle and the interest increase at faster and faster rate.

Everyone better be concerned about that-the planet is only so big-there are only so many resources. I don't need to go into detail-if you can add 1+1 I think you can figure out what the outcome will be.

If we don't halt population growth with justice and compassion, it will be done for us by nature, brutally and without pity - and will leave a ravaged world.
Nobel Laureate Dr. Henry W. Kendall

Hmm...who could disagree with a Nobel Laureate. Could it be there are some things you just haven't put enough thought into? For all of those that cry abortion is "immoral" I say there are more important things than morality-you know, like our exsistence.

I hate to tell you this millermkw but those who are looking for babies to adopt are looking for that perfect newborn baby.... most women who choose abortion come of low income areas, have little or no medical history or education (i.e teenagers) many young girls who might decide to give the child up for adoption by LAW have to notify the potential father. If they do not and give the child up for adoption by LAW the father can come to claim the child. Most states do not recognize a statute of limitations for father's rights because they assume that the potential father was intentionally left out by the birth mother for whatever reason. Thereby increasing a father's right to reclaim his 'child' even years after that child has been placed for adoption.

Because of the poor conditions these children would more then likely be born into they face health issues which can bring long term monetary expence to treat. There are both physical and mental illness that are associated with poor prenatal care which is more often seen in low income areas.

Would you adopt a baby that could be taken away from you after a year or more, could have life long health issues that you would have to pay for? If your answer is yes.. Go down to your local adoption agency.... there are hundreds of thousands of children (mostly older not newborns) who would love to have a forever home....

i hate to tell you, but you are so full of it! there are plenty of people who adopt babies with defects, or from poverty stricken areas. To provit, here is the proof.

When a child is up for adoption, the mother, and the adopting parents are forbidden by law to know eachother, and where those people originate. So if you adopt a baby, you wont know who the parents were, where that child was born outside of state, or area of the state. so all that is just bs about your rating of adopting. Now if you want to talk about responsibility....lets go.

Megalodon you're incorrect. In every state in the country there are "Open Adoption" laws on the books. There are also laws now allowing adoptees to have access to their birth records once they reach the age of 18. You have surogates who have to formally place the child they carry up for adoption to the parent's they specify ( i.e. the people who hired the surrogate).

Please go read the adoption laws. As an Adoptee I am very very familiar with them....

bnbreilly

thank you for being knowledgeable in this area. It's easier to post without knowledge and act like you know something than admit you don't.

Where do you people get your adoption information? First of all, you do not have to present complete medical records. All we had to do was fill out a simple form that our doctor signed and have an HIV test to make sure we were not HIV positive.

We met our baby's birth mother. We sat with her in the hospital and talked to her. She has our full names, our address and our phone number. We have her full name and address. We exchange pictures and letters.

There are hundreds and hundreds of couples out there who are waiting to adopt a child -- not the perfect baby -- a child. Our son is bi-racial and was born from his birth mother being raped. He is the cutest, most precious thing on the planet. Right now at the agency we used there are 185 couples who will adopt a poor person's baby.

And in almost every state the father's rights are terminated by the court at the time of adoption. For example, in Missouri the father has to register on the putative father's registry before the birth or he has no rights. We had to run ads in the local newspapers for the birth father to come forth even though he was a rapist.

I really wish people would get the true facts instead of misleading people.

sorry Patrick I can't help this..... But AMEN!!!!

Take a look at history and you will see that with the creation of religion woman LOST all rights and priveldges that they had earned and held up until then.

im for pro choice, starting from the pro choice you have the right to practice safe sex. after that it drops to if you were a victim of rape, or incest, thats it. falls into what you have at your disposal to prevent letting yourself be in the position to get an abortion.

well Mega, if you are still in favor of abortion in favor of incest cases, then you still are talking about almost all pregnancies in the south. Down there they think the move "Deliverance" is a love story.

Pro-life is not a right/left battle. Religion in America has become rather leftist. View religion's avowed positions on such left/right issues as illegal immigration, firearms laws, etc. Learn before ranting.

Patrick, you are just something... i been in the south already, and i know better.

If a man doesn't want an abortion, he needs to keep it in his pants. Oh, he doesn't have to worry about that. So any man who is pro-life and has ever had unprotected sex, especially out of wedlock, needs to STFU.
For those men who are pro-choice, thank you.

want to go there? again? fine...

its your body, respect it rather than knowing full well what the outcome of having unprotected sex can lead to, then cry my body 50 times per post. it boild down to the same thing, no matter how you look at it. suuure you have rights, but use THEM! you have the right to have protected sex right? to say wrap oll willy or no for you? to add in theres a million other forms of protected sx out there USE THEM!

WHY sit there and point a finger at someone saying they dont do it, when you dont do it yourself??? wtf kind of bs is that? and you want people to go along with abortion with that kind of thinking, you nuts!?!?

when it comes right down to it, WE ALL KNOW the risks of unprotected sex, ALL OF US! Yet when it comes down to it, its a matter of not being responsible, and getting the easy way out. Morals, beliefs, what ever, it dont matter. What does matter is this... you want to point fingers go stand in the mirror and point away...because thats right where the fault lies dead square on the shoulders, is with you, and that goes for males as well. Live up to your actions, and face your path you made, and accept your OWN responsibility for what happend. If you think getting an abortion is a right, think again, its your cowards way out, nothing more, or less. You are too afraid to live up to your own obligations from that point on, to have a child. Too afraid to let something into your life, that "might hold you down" from going out, and having the same thing happen again, because of being an idiot in the 1st place, and not doing something from the start even tho we all aready know.

Do you realize no contraception is 100%?

Meg, are you a man? You said you were an unwanted pregnancy. You said your child was unplanned? Does my previous post apply to you?

. So any man who is pro-life and has ever had unprotected sex, especially out of wedlock, needs to STFU.

I love how meg is soooooo wrapped up in unprotected sex! here's a good one for you then dear. my FIRST child, was married by the by, I was on the pill and used condoms.....WHOOPS got pregnant. Second child, in a relationship with the same man for 5 years, on Depo (hell, i thought that that was as potent a birth control as you could get) AND used condoms and, can you guess? had my second daughter...... never missed a pill, never missed a shot and use a condom EVERY TIME!

I don't believe ANY person that is pro-choice likes abortion used as a method of birth control, what we ARE for is a woman's right to choose what to do with her own body. You don't want to have an abortion, fine don't have one.

as for having your tubes tied, i was 21 (divorced with a 3 yr old) when I wanted to get my tubes tied. They told me I was too young, come back when you're 22. Came back at 22, AGAIN, you're too young and you don't have enough kids, come back at 25. went BACK at 25 and, don't you know it, 5 months pregnant! I SHOULD be able to sue them! OH and my cousin, who was married and had 3 children already, went and had her tubes tied and fried, 18 months later she had her 4th child............

Congratulations!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

funny you talk of responsibility tho.... sure showed that by getting pregnant in the 1st place right?

Still let me fill ya in on something. I, and both my children were not planned on. My mother was going to abort me, changed her mind. My grandmother tried to force a miscarriage, failed. My mother married a man(not my father) for the sake of having a husband, who beat me bad a lot. That started at the grand ol age of 2.

i am i feel a productive member on this planet, as are my children. I do what i can to help others, and do what i can that is right, as do my children. When you talk about other people taking responsibility, you fail to look at how you didnt, or your boyfreind. Dont get me wrong, i am not ranking on you, but pointing out your wrong.

Just because YOU didnt plan on something does not mean YOU can just drop out of being responsible. Was it that life inside you that made a mistake? no, it was you. it was your boyfreind as well, but it all came down to you, because you didnt practice safe sex. So your unborn child paid the price, whats that compaired to being responsible right?

i mean, at least you didnt have to deal with dirty diapers, and feedings, and having as well to make sure you kept up on studies. Your bf, well he got to go on his merry way, and live his own life too, and so on, but at least the both of you didnt suffer, and thats so good to hear, really it is. I mean if being responsible for ones actions means to suffer, maybe you can tell me something.... do you know for a fact, when the feeding tube from inside you was torn from your fetus as it was being crushed against its wall of security, then pulled out in most likely more than one piece, do you think maybe it suffered a little too?

Megalodon-358694, If I knew you for a few years, don't you think I could judge your sins and morals? I had an abortion, too. Not for birth control but for other reasons. My reasons. Well thought out. Your story is yours and good for you. But leave others to their own. HiWoods decision worked for her with no regrets. My decision worked for me with no regrets. Your decision worked for you with no regrets. See, we are all happy.

Now quit singing that same sad song 'cause you ain't changing any minds here.

not saying i am, because i know if you cant look at the fetus you are going to abort, without having an issue over it, it's because you feel threatend, and will hold onto that, for self service.

Fact is tho, you made a choice you have to live with it. If you dont see what that choice is going to have an affect on, or refuse to look at it, then your a coward. if you without any regret, you are selfish, and concieted. just my opinion, yet still, true to test. see, theres a diffrence between people like me and you, can tell it just the way you put yourself. Me, i face my problems, head on. dont burn my bridges, i wear them out, and move onto the next one. I take what life has to offer, and look for the best, no matter what it throws in my face, or wipes away from it. unlike some i guess....

Best decision I made in my whole life. As to seeing what a fetus looks like, I have links to see all stages of development.

http://www.hss.state.ak.us/dph/wcfh/informedconsent/1sttri.htm

http://www.wpclinic.org/parenting/fetal-development/

http://swmule.newsvine.com/_news/2010/02/01/3833437-my-name-is-gail-and-i-had-an-abortion

you lost me at "fox news poll"

FOX? Are they still on the air?

That was no rant, Robert. She sounded very calm. Those of us who are at peace share our stories in the hope that those like you might understand how personal the decision is. Here is my story:

http://swmule.newsvine.com/_news/2010/02/01/3833437-my-name-is-gail-and-i-had-an-abortion

Phillip, Robert & TW how many babies have you adopted so far????

None I'll bet.

how many have you killed??

Sick because you say so? Or do you have an actual reason to call her sick?

better question the them is how many babies have they given BIRTH to? Nursed? Carried in their wombs? none? then keep YOUR morals off MY ovaries

How can anyone with any sense of reason at all compare Nazi killings with abortion.? One was trying to exterminate a whole living race while the other is getting rid of an embryo that could not live outside of a womans body on its own. This is just an over emotional rant that we are sick of hearing. Funny how it is usually men that make the most noise over this issue.

Really now? Just where did you come up with that number? Hmm?

Linky dinky please, and it had better be legitimate.

Bill O reilly fox news poll. ''it had better be legitimate'' too late to abort me. do you think 35 million abortions being commited is moral??

Forty percent of Americans believe in creationism, which just goes to show we're a nation with a lot of religious half wits.

O'Really?!? Fox News Poll??! Oh....then that legitimizes that poll.......

(sarcasm)

LOL That is not a legitimate poll! What a joke!

Shame on all of you who have killed your babies,soooo guilty!!!!!

phillip easton, shame on you to judge all of us baby killers, soooo not Christ-like!!!!!

no only those that commit or support abortion,I guess that makes you''christlike'' you sound so religous?

phillip

no only those that commit or support abortion,I guess that makes you''christlike'' you sound so religous?

Mr. Sanctimonious, you may want to know how to spell religious if you want to be representing!

Get off your high horse, buddy. You have no right to put your beliefs or condemnations on anyone!

I guess you are another ''christ like'' abortion supporter and you have the nerve.Stop killing babies''evildoers''

Perhaps I made an assumtion about you, phillip. Are you a Christian? Is this what drives your "baby killing" judgement? Or is this your own moral judgement and nothing to do with God or Christ?

Christian by faith, but this is a matter of right and wrong and to bring religion into the topic is not necessary. Does it matter? Really an atheist can understand right from wrong.

SW Mule & Vooda,

Give up already on phillip, he is just a raving lunatic and you won't be able to change that. In his world he doesn't have to make any sense. He sure isn't a mouth piece for God. No God would want to be associated with him. He had me almost falling off my chair laughing when Vooda told him to use spellcheck and he called her an "evil doer".

wow I guess that respecting human life now makes me a ''raving lunatic'' and what I have heard is that a large percentage of women who ''choose to kill their babies are wracked with guilt and requiring therapy, sam4ever??

phillip, if you would respect those of us trying to discuss the subject... oh, never mind.

A fetus does not become a baby until it emerges from the uterus.

As for guilt, I have yet to meet a woman who is "wracked with guilt" over an abortion. I did meet one woman who felt great loss because she was not the one to make the decision. It was the same loss one might feel with the death of an infant or toddler. Don't interrupt me. I know there are all those horror stories on the anti-choice-female-torture sites. I also know that those same stories are used over and over on every possible site because there are so few actual sufferers. That is not to say that anyone takes the decision lightly. There is a great deal of thought put into the decision. Once the decision is made and you understand it is the best for all involved, there is no guilt, only quiet acceptance.

Quiet acceptance is something you don't know about.

And why are you not in favor of reducing the number of abortions which this measure would surely do?? too many babies?? Intercept the little buggers before they pop out????? Just because you are a mule let other women enjoy a new life coming into the world!! Please do not be so bitter about your situation maybe you could adopt one.

phillip easton: I have heard is that a large percentage of women who ''choose to kill their babies are wracked with guilt and requiring therapy, sam4ever??

I know that's what your anti-choice propaganda mind controlling terrorist group leads you to believe but that is incorrect. In actuality women that have reached this decision to abort are quite relieved once the procedure is done. It is only when the "do gooders" religious freaks put their counsel with guilt on a small percentage of these women will you hear of remorse and guilt.

Get over it and get a life........if this cause means so much to you make sure you put a sock (as in condom) on it....... the world will be better for it. =^)

phillip, could you explain what this means?

Just because you are a mule let other women enjoy a new life coming into the world!! Please do not be so bitter about your situation maybe you could adopt one.

I am not stopping or denying anyone having a child. Why would I? Where have I indicated this? Or that I am "bitter" about my "situation." What situation have I to be bitter about? I have a wonderful life and seem to be happier than you. I don't tell people how to handle their private business. I don't get my nose all up in their vagina to tell them they should keep that baby in there. I don't drag them to the clinic to tell them to get that thing out of there. I let them CHOOSE the way they think is best for them. I support them whatever their choice is.

"...maybe you could adopt one." Why? You are the one insisted it stay there. Why don't you adopt one. I want to educate young people on how to prevent pregnancy and STDs. I want to tell them how incredable it feels by waiting and by being with someone you truly love. I want them to know that having sex early only ruins the wonder that is waiting for them when they are a little older.

phillip, pregnancy is for 9 months. Raising a child is for 20 years. Some STDs last a lifetime, have no cure, no effective treatment, are very painful, can cause serious nerve damage as well as insanity. You keep worrying about those precious little cells. I think I'll worry about prevention and the already born.

Thats enough goodbye for now.

Diane, Greatpost. I don't want my tax dollars going to pay for unneeded costly medical proceedures just to make a moral point. Women have a legal right to an abortion under certain conditions. If those conditions are met the govt. should stay out of it.

Cheap!

yes Jeanine, but you are talking about a very few compared to the number of abortions. So there is no way you can say that if a woman goes through a full term to appease a pro lifer, that there are plenty of them lined up to lovingly take that child in. Most would not have that home to go to, and our society would be overun with unwanted unloved children growing up angered and dejected and there would be much bigger issues to contend with. I recently joined a pilot group to volunteer as a mentor for kids coming out of the foster care system. I am sure i will have a further education on just how painful that world is for many unwanted kids....

What about all the "un-adoptable" babies that can't find loving homes - the babies born with disabilities, minority babies, and older children in foster care?

Healthy white infants are easy to find homes for. Beyond that, a lot of these kids end up in foster care or worse.

"What about all the "un-adoptable" babies that can't find loving homes - the babies born with disabilities, minority babies, and older children in foster care?"

so.....there are old people who are unwated to....should we kill them ?

and btw the way...children do grow up...and can overcome thier circumstances and be productive....some of the most intelligant and productive people in this world were unwated as children,....so your point is reason to fix the adoption system...not reason to kill babies.

But they aren't babies. They are fetuses.

Anyway the point of my post was not to start another thread on when life begins. We will always disagree about that, which is why this should always be a personal decision, not a governmental one.

The point of my post is that adoption is not some easy cure-all - for a lot of reasons, only one of which I mentioned above. A lot of pro-lifers think it is but facts show it just isn't.

calling a developing child a fetus in an effort to dehumanize it...and to make yourself feel better about killiing it....is sadly misguilded and delusional.....but regardless....abortion is not a cure all either....for every woman who has one is potentially exposed to HIV or hepB/C or some other STDs....do the math.

I can't think of one adopted individual who would have preferred their mother had an abortion rather than give them up for adoption.

I can't think of one aborted zygote or fetus that would have preferred to be adopted rather than aborted.

The medical term is fetus. It is not considered baby until 3rd trimester although, medically, it is still called a fetus.

calling a developing child a fetus in an effort to dehumanize it...and to make yourself feel better about killiing it....is sadly misguilded and delusional.....

That's it's proper name. Is calling a sperm sperm dehumanizing it? Should I call it a potential person? If it's post embryo and pre-birth it's proper name is a fetus, whether you like it or not. Most abortions occur when it is in fact an embryo not a fetus, anyway, but I'm sure you're as irrationally opposed to that nomenclature as well.

I can't think of one adopted individual who would have preferred their mother had an abortion rather than give them up for adoption.

By this logic women should be forced to be breeding mares, reproducing as quickly as possible so that every potential human being that we can have born is born. It's simply idiotic.

a sperm is not a life, moron....by its self it will not ever be a human...it must fertilize an egg to become a life....once the egg is fertilized everything beyond that point, is a stage of development which does not stop at birth.....it continues on until well into adulthood.....classifying developmental stages is useful in science....but not useful for idiots who use the terms to ease their guilt....because they refuse to be responsible.

By itself an embryo won't ever be a person either. It needs sustenance from an outside source. As for being a life - bacteria is life, a blade of grass is life. It's not unique human DNA that gives us personhood and value, it's the functioning upper bain, something that in the stages of development we're talking about simply isn't present.

Calling it a fetus is not an effort to dehumanize it. It is the proper legal and medical term. I don't go around calling a woman's breast boobies, or calling a man's penis a dick, or any other slang terminology. If you have a problem with the legal and medical terms, perhaps you should take on those establishments and have them change their wording. Until you successfully do that I will call it what it is.

"By itself an embryo won't ever be a person either"

no...only human intervention will cause a zygote to not adhere to the uterine wall...either by chemical or mechanical means....that does not change the fact that it is still genetically and uniquely an individual human in its earliest stage of development....upper brain function is not necessary for the classification of a human life....we do not exterminate the mentally incapable or mentally handicapped because they lack certain brain funtionality.....that is unless you are a NAZI!!!....and further, a bacteria is not a human life...nor is a bade of grass......but if you want to compare your self to a bacteria then who am i to stop you?....it only serves illustrate why you shouldn't breed either.

If it doesn't attach to the wall of the uterus, that so called life dies and is flushed out with the period. Oh No, it's an abortion! Natural but an abortion non the less. And it happens all the time, maybe month after month. It might even attach and stay there for a few weeks or a couple months and decide to let go. Poor little life-begins-at conception just didn't want to be born. It is not a baby.

I never said it wasn't human, I said it wasn't a person. It's not. It doesn't have the unique traits which give us the transcendent qualities of personhood. Unique DNA and cell mitosis aren't what give us value. As far as comparing an embryo to a bacteria or piece of grass. Absolutely. They're self replicating multicellular organisms that are unfeeling and unthinking.

no its a misscarrage....not an abortion which is an intentional act to destroy a developing life...a miscarriage is a biological mishap and is not intentional.

"Unique DNA and cell mitosis aren't what give us value"

says you....hower genetics can determine a multitude of propensities...not just your physical apearance...but how you will think...the types of things you will be drawn toward....certain abilities including but not limited to, athletic ability intelligence, artistic ability...and so on.....that my friend has value.....blades of grass and bacteria are unfeeling....so what?...they will always remain unfeeling and unthinking....not true of an embryo...which if all things are normal....and the mother doesn't kill it....it will become a living human being capable of love and happyness....why should you want to prevent that from occurring is beyond me.....its delsuional...but i find it mildly entertaining the mental gymnastics that are going on here to justify abortion.......dont get me wrong...im not saying that extreme hardship cases should not have the option.....what i am saying however is that these cases are rare compared to the number of healthy developing children that are snuffed out by stupid selfish thoughtless people.

well it been a blast pulling your strings and making you squirm....but Ive got to drive my girl friend to the clinic....to have her 8 month old unfeeling pile of lifeless tissue looked at by the doctor to make sure its a healthy lifeless pile of tissue.

Be glad the doctor isn't forcing her to have a procedure against her will while she's there as you think should be a requirement for other women.

http://www.bing.com/Dictionary/search?q=define+abortion&FORM=DTPDIA
abortion
Definition

a·bor·tion[ ə báwrsh'n ]

a·bor·tions

Plural

NOUN

1. operation to end pregnancy: an operation or other intervention to end a pregnancy by removing an embryo or fetus from the womb

2. medicine ( technical )
Same as miscarriage (sense 1)

3. offensive term: an offensive term for something so badly done or made that it is a complete failure

4. aerospace cancellation of mission: the ending of a flight or mission before it is completed

Thesaurus
NOUN
Synonyms: death of a fetus, miscarriage, death of a baby, abortion, dead fetus, dead baby
http://www.answers.com/topic/abortion

1. 1. Induced termination of a pregnancy with destruction of the embryo or fetus.
   2. Any of various procedures resulting in the termination of a pregnancy. Also called induced abortion.
2. See miscarriage (sense 1).
3. Cessation of normal growth, especially of an organ or other body part, prior to full development or maturation.
4. The premature ending or abandonment of an undertaking.
5. Something that is regarded as poorly made or done.

Spontaneous abortion

Spontaneous abortion is defined in the UK as a pregnancy loss occurring before 24 completed weeks of pregnancy. Approximately 50-70% of pregnancies end in spontaneous abortion. Most of these losses are unrecognized because they occur before or at the time of the next expected menstrual period. About 15-20% of clinically diagnosed pregnancies are lost by 16 weeks. Recurrent abortion, defined as the loss of three or more consecutive pregnancies, occurs in 0.5-1% of pregnant women. Causes of spontaneous abortion may relate to the fetus, the placenta, or the uterus. Genetic factors, developmental problems, placental problems, and infection are known causes, but in a quarter of all spontaneous abortions the cause is unknown. This may be due to lack of ability to investigate these cases.

It is generally accepted that 50% of all recognized pregnancy losses in the first 3 months are due to a genetic abnormality. Abnormalities of the placenta have probably greater importance than is realized, but information on this aspect is scanty. A number of organisms have been associated with spontaneous abortion, such as listeria, brucella infection from animals, and the rubella virus. In isolated instances fetal or placental infection with various organisms may result in spontaneous abortion, but there is no evidence of their involvement in a recurrent problem. Some cases of recurrent abortion are due to congenital abnormalities of the uterus and these may be corrected surgically; 70-80% of women with the most frequent abnormalities have successful pregnancies following surgery.

This has nothing in the world to do with democracy. Abortion is termination of the life of a human being. People should be made aware of what they are doing before they are allowed to do it. Don't be daft.

So the unborn baby is not alive? You are kidding, right?

When most abortions are performed, it's a ball of cells. It's not a baby. But you knew that and don't care, right? Women's bodies must be controlled, so we'll lie to be able to do it?

"Patriotic to what?"

That Jesus-Constitution-My-Personal-Opinion-So-It's-Right Thingie.

Here is the data on abortions:

The highest percentages of reported abortions were for women aged <25 years (52%), women who were white (57%), and unmarried women (81%). Fifty-eight percent of all abortions for which gestational age was reported were performed at <8 weeks of gestation, and 88% were performed before 13 weeks. From 1992 (when detailed data regarding early abortions were first collected) through 2000, steady increases have occurred in the percentage of abortions performed at <6 weeks of gestation. Few abortions were performed after 15 weeks of gestation; 4.3% were obtained at 16--20 weeks and 1.4% were obtained at >21 weeks. A total of 31 reporting areas submitted data stating that they performed medical (nonsurgical) procedures, making up 1.0% of all reported procedures from the 42 areas with adequate reporting on type of procedure.

So Tracy, it is not always just a bag of cells as you put it. Remember one thing. At one time you were just a bag of cells.

It's not about data. It's about the right of a woman to control her own body.

What about the rights of the unborn baby.

Here is the data on abortions:

The highest percentages of reported abortions were for women aged <25 years (52%), women who were white (57%), and unmarried women (81%). Fifty-eight percent of all abortions for which gestational age was reported were performed at <8 weeks of gestation, and 88% were performed before 13 weeks. From 1992 (when detailed data regarding early abortions were first collected) through 2000, steady increases have occurred in the percentage of abortions performed at <6 weeks of gestation. Few abortions were performed after 15 weeks of gestation; 4.3% were obtained at 16--20 weeks and 1.4% were obtained at >21 weeks. A total of 31 reporting areas submitted data stating that they performed medical (nonsurgical) procedures, making up 1.0% of all reported procedures from the 42 areas with adequate reporting on type of procedure.

So Tracy, it is not always just a bag of cells as you put it. Remember one thing. At one time you were just a bag of cells.

so please enlighten us as to the conditions/terms of all of those late term abortions, were they because there was a life threatening disease to either the child or mother. doctor's won't just perform an abortion after the fetus is mature for the hell of it. there must be reasons.

You assume there are reasons other than the desire of the mother to abort? Yes, there are doctors who will do abortions as late in the pregnancy as the law allows. I personally know people who had an abortion just because they were young and did not want their life to be "RUINED" by having a baby. They were not raped. They got pregnant from their boyfriends. Give me a break. Again I will ask about the rights of the unborn child. A life that could and would have been. Why are more people not upset about that I wonder. Consider yourself enlightened.

OK, what tickles my fancy here is all this talk of the UNBORN baby's rights. Until the baby is a living BREATHING human being it has no rights, unless the woman gives it to them while she is pregnant. the fetus is nothing more than a parasite, feeding off the host mother for nourishment, kinda like a tapeworm

You believe a child growing inside the womb is nothing more than a parasite? That would mean you were once nothing more than a parasite yourself. Funny how things really don't change much over time. Your comments are uneducated and unenlightened. The fact of the matter is the real debate centers on why the unborn baby seems to have no rights that need protecting That society as a whole fails to understand that unborn children should be entitled to constitutional protection will be or biggest mistake as a culture. This failure allows us to justify murdering innocent children every day. Human life is unbelievably precious and should be terminated only in the most dire of circumstances.

It is a fetus until it is out of the uterus. Then it is a baby. It has no rights as an individual until it is an INDIVIDUAL.

1. specific person: a specific person, distinct from others in a group
belief in the individual's right to self-expression

2. any person: a human being, or a person of a specified type
a panel consisting of four individuals
a very unfortunate individual

3. separate thing: a separate entity or thing

4. biology separate organism: an independent organism separate from a group
http://encarta.msn.com/dictionary_1861620964/individual.html

So a child in its mother's womb is not a person of a specific type? You are arguing semantics, not common sense. An unborn child is still a child. He or she is still a human being. One day our intellect will have evolved sufficiently to understand this on a cultural level. In reading some of these posts I see that some of you are not there yet.

We dehumanize ourselves when when we dehumanize unborn children. Your arguments are designed to make you feel better. They fail utterly to tear through the veil of ignorance and inhumanity. As a society we have so very far to go. When you support abortion you support murder. Feel better about that?

For those that believe that a mother's right to choose sounds about right-know this. The Donner party was not as misguided.

That is not semantics. You are trying to play the emotional side. Does a woman who wants her fetus to be born a healthy baby? Sure she does. She will call it a baby from the time she decides she wants to "make one." Calling it a baby does not make it so.

The fetus in the woman's uterus is not a person of any type. It is not a human being. It is not even a being.

DICTIONARY
human being
Definition

NOUN

1. member of human species: a member of the species to which men and women belong. Latin name Homo sapiens.

2. person: a person, viewed especially as having imperfections and weaknesses

"I'm a human being, not a machine."

Thesaurus
NOUN
Synonyms: person, human, being, individual, creature, homo sapiens, hominid

being
Definition

1. Present participle of be¹

NOUN

be·ings

plural

1. person: a human individual

2. existence: the state of existing

"the turbulent years during which the new nation came into being"

3. essential nature: somebody's essential nature or character

"loved the child with all her being"

4. living thing: a living thing, especially one conceived of as supernatural or not living on Earth

Thesaurus
NOUN
Synonyms: existence, life, actuality, presence, animation
Synonyms: self, soul, essence, spirit, core, heart, nature, personality, consciousness, mind
Synonyms: life form, organism, creature, living being, human being, person, individual, mortal
NOUN
Antonyms: nothingness

It can not be a being until it is a seperate unit. It can not be a seperate unit until it can survive on its own and is outside of the uterus. When You understand the science and not the "god and soul" of the issue, you will understand the individual rights of the woman over the fetus. Until then it is a womans choice to abort, adopt out or keep. Her choice, her decision, and no one else.

A fetus is an unborn offspring from the 8th week after conception (after the major structures have formed) up until birth. If you want to kill these, fine. Just have the honesty to say so. Let's not pretend it's isn't a human when it clearly is. I suppose one could term Hitler as pro-choice. His "abortions" were simply quite "late-term" in nature.

Get the Hitler out of here.

I have stated the science. I have given the links. Even the definitions. If you want to call it MURDER that is on you. It is not a person. It is human tissue. It is not a human. It does not have muscles, skeleton or organs yet. Not until the 10th week after the last period which is when the doctors count.

6 WEEKS AFTER CONCEPTION
(8 WEEKS AFTER THE LAST MENSTRUAL PERIOD)

• The embryo is now about ½ to 5/8 inches long. Click here for picture
• Eyes, ears, and facial features begin to develop.
• Fingers and toes are more distinct.
  http://www.hss.state.ak.us/dph/wcfh/informedconsent/1sttri.htm

If you'll could get your facts straight it would greatly help your argument. Fighting with emotions and misinformation is a looser.

What I gave is the medical definition. Just say what you mean. Don't pee on everyone's leg and tell them it's raining. That won't f ly.