Not even pot Bob (though I get that you may be kidding)! Doctors like this are a danger to all their patients! When money means more than common sense...

The doctor once called the people who died of overdoses "bad grapes." Wow! I'd call the doctor a lunatic or idiot or something along those lines.

Most medicare fraud is commited by Doctors as well. That white coat works wonders.

lol curious bob

Seems today they are all pill pushers if they work for a large conglomerate! I was seeing a doctor and he wanted to prescribe an anti cholesterol medicine which as it turned out to be of no benefit to anyone who took it and came with serious side effects for a level that was below the normal range. he said well you are getting along in years and this is a preventative. I shook my head walked out tossed the prescription changed my diets and he marveled at how well my level was as he wrote the next prescription I was about to throw away. Took me awhile to find another doctor that was not on the payroll of one of the HC giants but I did and I am happy with him. There is too much money being made buy these people in both private practice and the big guys on pill pushing. Pills are being prescribed for things they ar not approved for and do not work for and doctors and corporations are making a killing. Along with making that killing they are also killing some of us unfortunately.

No dispensing pot for them. They might distribute pot laced with paraquat!

There was one Doc that would prescribe muscle relaxants for pain. Isn't the heart a muscle? No way would I take some of those prescription drugs. And, now (actualy for some time) school kids are getting into medicine cabinets at home or a friends home to get "high". Lock'em up - the meds not the kids!. mj

Unfortunately - this guy does deserve time... prescribing the same meds people already overdosed on? Ridiculous.

It's unfortunate because it puts yet another damper on those of us that do take powerful medication (not drugs) to control chronic pain, for legitimate reasons. I'm a disabled veteran and was injured while on duty. The VA now takes care of my medical and I've been looked at as an "addict" constantly because of what I take for my pain. However, I also have a medical file at least a foot thick, and have a documented injury to match what I've been given. I also have to have drug tests taken every 6 months and contract that's updated yearly - as it should be.

There's always a danger of becoming addicted - it's something I worry about often. However, people do need to understand that some of us living with this kind of pain need this medication just to be able to move. I'm only 42, have a 12 yr old daughter and spend my time in a wheelchair more often than not. I would much rather have my life back than be stuck in this situation taking meds every day and being in pain. Also, most people on narcotic meds do not get 'stoned' from them, and are very careful about taking our meds - unlike addicts.

I'm thankful I am able to get the meds I do, because I wouldn't be walking without them, but every time some num-nuts overdoses on prescription meds, or a doctor goes a bit overboard on his/her prescribing methods - all the millions of people suffering from real pain are the ones who pay for it by docs being too afraid to prescribe what they need.

I also believe that all other avenues of pain relief should be used before anyone is given an ongoing script for narcotics. It shouldn't be something that's just given out like candy, as this doctor apparently did. A prescription every now and then isn't a big deal, it's when it's given constantly without other options that usually cause problems and cause addicts.

The biggest problem is that doctors are taught basically nothing about pain care during their schooling years, or internships. It's a documented fact that the majority of doctors have no clue how to help people in pain. Mostly they assume the pain is either in our heads, or we're just out for "drugs". It makes it very difficult for those of us who have tried everything possible, yet have no choice left. It's not fun being told by your doctor "you'll be in pain for the rest of your life". I've heard it too many times myself...

Try the Mayo Clinic for their Pain Clinic in Rochester, MN. It will help anyone to manage pain without meds. Takes awhile and a lot of work on your part, but it can be done. Not right away, but incredibly their methods do work on pain that other docs say "nothing to be done".

hey Bob, Do you know if Kansas has medical marijuana shops?

Lmasure, I totally understand! I also need narcotic pain medication to be able to somewhat function on a daily basis. Because I have ulcerative colitis and a history of seizures, I'm unable to take just about any other kind of pain medication. Like you said, when you actually have pain, you don't get stoned or high or dopey when you take the meds - you just don't have the pain (or don't have as much of it). You know, the kind of existence other people take for granted? Hell, I've been on the stuff for years and have yet to experience any kind of "high" from it.

I also had to sign a contract with my doctor, and I'm subject to random drug tests and pill counts to make sure that I'm not abusing or selling my meds. I've got a file that could fill a damn filing cabinet. Everything is well-documented. I'm VERY fortunate to have found a doctor who will treat my pain adequately - but it took years for me to find her. And she's mentioned to me that she hates having the DEA breathing down her neck because she doesn't want to undertreat her patients, but they could revoke her medical license if they think she's prescribing "too much" medication (exactly what "too much" is is never mentioned and apparently quite subjunctive).

Studies show that only three percent of people prescribed narcotic pain medication go on to abuse it. That means that 97% use them as intended. But the DEA doesn't care. Punish everyone because of a few bad seeds. Pisses me off.

Look, people. If addicts don't get their drugs from a doctor, they get their drugs from organized crime. Organized crime kills innocent bystanders and cops. These two doctors let people that are addicts anyway get their drugs from honest sources.

What do you fools think? Do you honestly think that shutting this clinic down will separate a bunch of addicts from their drugs? Are you kidding me?

Addicts get drugs. That is what it means to be an addict. Addicts get drugs legally or they get them illegally.

Take your pick.

If you are taking narcotics on a regular basis for chronic pain, you ARE an addict whether you get high or not. When you miss a dose or two, the horrible pain is most likely from withdrawals instead of your chronic condition. Your condition could in fact be much better, but you will never know due to fear of pain from withdrawals. You can get pain medication from your personal physician. He will do everything possible so that you don't become addicted. As another poster suggested, there are many methods of pain control available beyond narcotic addiction. You have my sympathy and God bless you, but you have walked into a trap that may never set you free.

Commonsense- There is a HUGE difference between an ADDICT and a person that is physically dependent because of chronic pain/conditions. Catch that word, "CHRONIC" as in always there and never, NEVER going to go away and likely get worse.

Much of that difference is behavior : an ADDICT will automatically hit the street looking for dope, heroin if need be, to "cure" the sick. A Physically Dependent person with a chronic condition will go to their DR to be carefully weaned safely from dependence IF another effective method of pain control should come available.

Unless you (not YOU specifically, just a general "you"...) have been in SEVERE CHRONIC pain to the point of massive restriction of any physical movement, it's really not a feeling or way of life that can be understood. Pain from surgery tends to ease over time, truly chronic, severe pain tends to get more pronounced over time.

At what point is pain considered chronic? I really don't know for other people, for me personally it was about 20 years of several pain control programs, physical therapys and I'm 5'7 and weigh about 120 average so its definately not obesity related, before I finally consented to see the pain med/addiction specialist to see if narcotics could help. During the process (yes, there IS a monitored process) to see what kind and ammount of med would help me, I CHOSE to stop raising the mg. when I got to the point I could stand and bathe without assistance. I've used the same dose for about 6 years now. Pain free? HARDLY! But THAT's the difference between addict and chronic pain dependence.

You are right Shawn. These pain clinics are a HUGE problem where I live in Florida and kids are getting hooked on prescription drugs left and right. We need to find a way to close down these illegitimate clinics and arrest these "doctors" who are nothing more than drug dealers in white coats. So scary and sad.

You know, I am not concerned. In fact, I could care less.

These people would have gotten drugs somewhere else, probably heroin. They would have paid more for it and committed crimes to get it.

And no, I don't care if drug addicts overdose either. It sounds hard-hearted, but drug addicts cause so much pain and suffering around them I just don't care. If they die, that's their business. They chose it, they didn't have to do it. That Dr. Schneider is right on, "Bad grapes" is right. Who cares?

I think they should release these two and let them continue. Just don't let them advertise. If they advertise, then they are trying to get people addicted to new stuff. If they don't it's a matter of word of mouth among people who are already addicts.

If the addicts want to get clean, they can.

If the addicts want to get clean, they can.

That is one of the stupidest statements I've seen in any discussion forum.

John Toradze, these clinics kill people and destroy families. If the terrorists had only been patient, they could operate pain clinics and kill far more people than destroying several of our major cities. The number was 68 deaths in ONE clinic. How many clinics are in Wichita? How many cities in Kansas? How many states in this country? How many cities in each state? Do the math. These clinics not only serve addicts, they create hundreds of thousands of them. You are not concerned? How much has the crime rate risen in your community since these clinics started flooding our cities? How many demands for larger or new jails and prisons? You should be concerned. Very concerned!

I'm so sorry to hear that. mj

Hey, addicts are addicts. They get their drugs - period.

The only question is, where do you want them to get their drugs?

So sorry Crystal, so what is being done now? mj

The problem is not the clinic. The problem is the addicts. Treatment of addicts can work. Shutting down clinics just makes addicts desperate and commit crimes.

Don't tell me that you think that shutting down the clinic will end addiction!

The oath they used to ascribe to means nothing to some of them today.

What is it about Doctor/Wife offices? I have read other married couples using medicare as a way to their means.

We have to research, research, and get second, third opinions, of docs and about docs. Someone was told by one doc, what no medicare? don't come back until you have medicare. hmmmmm who is getting paid? and by what?

oops, almost said something too strong. So, what happens to the doc and his wife? will it be published?

An addict will say anything to get the drug, stupid.

Exactly right "Realistic Woman".

Now, since you know this is true, do you want your local addicts supporting organized crime? Or do you want your local addicts supporting honest pharmacy employees?

You choose. If you don't want organized crime involved, then reopen the clinic.

John,

I would agree except for one thing. I don't like that my taxes are paying for these junkies to stay high. I can't stand when they come in with their medicaid/medicare card and get 180 pain pills. I know they are abusing them, and I not only have to take their abuse when they can't get them early, but i know my tax money is paying for them. I don't care how much they snort or what the outcome is, but don't make me have to pay for their addiction. Let them get a job at mcdonald's to pay for their drugs.

Rph-40, I'll let you in on a few secrets. 240 pills is the norm here. That's just for one prescription. They often get 2 or 3 of these prescriptions(in lesser amounts) for different types of narcotics . They get enough to satisfy their habit with plenty left over for a tidy income. Usually 6 or 7 thousand dollars a month. All on our dime. These narcotics are usually sold to our kids or young adults that falsely think prescription drugs are safer than street drugs. Foolish idea and foolish kids, but it happens everyday in every American community. These clinics and big pharma know that they're selling far more drugs in a week than all of the chronic pain patients could possibly use in a lifetime. I know all of this to be fact. I have battled for years with a bright young son that is now a recovering addict. I know that things are very tough right now. I would urge you seek employment elsewhere as soon as you can. This article is just the beginning. We will shut down these "Houses of Horror" before they destroy American society.

I also suffer chronic pain and have been on some form of narcotic for the last 10 years. I've had 4 surgeries and now without insurance or social security have test results that scream for yet another surgery. It is VERY SAD SO MANY DIED before these quacks were shut down. I agree with the others about the affect it has on those of US who TRULY NEED NARCOTICS to funtion. When I go to get my monthly scripts I have to wait for at least 2 hours because the clinic does a PEE test monthly. I can barely pay for the doctor and the meds. THERE HAS TO BE A SOLUTION. "Buy" Maybe not, I'm still battling Social security too with no end in sight. I guess when I get put in the wheelchair they may consider disabled or not. I just wish I knew of an employer that would hire a person taking the amount of narcotics I take a day...Just saying...180 morphine, 90 muscle relaxant...A MONTH just a fewof my drugs.

donald nelson,

You say a lot - and mention too, that most ER's will say "on a scale of one to ten - where is your pain. And that makes pain the all too important issue. Even when leaving the ER, it is asked again, and where is your pain? ( but I still don't think morons should kill them selves ) Get help, the right kind of help. Pharmacists are great people who help people. Have you noticed on TV comercials how some drugs are canvased all along certain areas? Drugs seem to be grouped and then are in the docs offices at the same time. hmmmmm

Get "rid of all controlled substances"? Yeah, that's a stupid idea. What about the people that actually take them as prescribed, and need them for their REAL pain? I'd hate to have you as a nurse.

Get "rid of all controlled substances"? Yeah, that's a stupid idea. What about the people that actually take them as prescribed, and need them for their REAL pain?

That is exactly the point. This is an argument by reductio absurdum. When a person argues that way, they take the logic to its obvious conclusion and show how absurd it is.

Lmasure and John Toradze: Nelson's comments reads: "Get rid of all controlled substance acts", meaning abolish all laws controlling them. Doing this would make them readily available to anyone, not take them off the market.

Thank you Lee, I was about to die of laughter from the absurdity of the drama before me.

Were you saying Chernobyl and dams?

THANK YOU Kellian! I echo your sentiments about absurdity!!! LMAO!

Ok - So what are you going to do then with the addicts that go buy street heroin?

What are you going to do with the addicts who commit crimes in order to get high because they can't get it legally and it costs them much more?

.....Ok.....I......think...... John Toradze is trying to get a point across here by arguing with every single poster on this page......but I can't quite figure out what it is.............

20 years ago it was addicts shooting heroin, getting AIDS, giving it to non-addicts.

20 years ago it was addicts shooting heroin, holding up stores and mugging people to get money for a fix.

Anybody who thinks that people getting pain meds don't know they are addictive is pretty darn naive.

Homer - do some homework first. Going to a pain clinic and/or pain specialist does NOT mean you're going to get narcotics. Quite the opposite really. The vast majority of doctors are very wary on prescribing anything stronger than motrin. How do I know? I've been there. I suffered from severe chronic pain from a military injury for over 10 years, went thru all the therapy, did all the tests, took all the non-narcotic meds... I tried everything, and nothing worked. Many years and several doctors later, I finally get prescribed a low dose narcotic, and lo and behold - the pain was gone! You have no idea what that's like - going from so much pain to taking a medication that actually relieves it... you have no clue what that means to people like me.

Until you've lived with pain like this, don't even pretend that a broken leg 20 years ago compares to what people with chronic pain go through on a daily basis, or that your piddly little dose of 20 pills is anything like we have to take monthly. Do you think we enjoy knowing we literally can't get through a day without them? And not because of addiction issues, but because they enable us to MOVE.

If you take narcotics on a regular basis and then you stop, yes, you go through withdrawal - and pretty much any drug, whether it's doctor prescribed or cocaine, withdrawal effects are about the same, they just vary on intensity based on the dose you usually take daily and how long you've been on them. The excess pain is only a symptom of withdrawal - so I really don't understand your point.

As far as where were all these clinics 20 years ago? There was none because none of the doctors took pain seriously and wrongly assumed that it was all in our heads or we were all addicts. Back then people just suffered through it. I've done that enough in my life thank you very much. I'll keep taking my meds for as long as they keep working, and be able to actually do things with my daughter rather than telling her "mommy can't honey, I'm in too much pain". Something I've had to do far too often, even being on narcotics. They don't take it all away.

I'm 42 years old and would be bedridden if I didn't have my medication - and I'm not exaggerating either. As it is right now, my 67 yr old mother has to live with me and my daughter because I can't do any housework, cooking, let alone work, or anything else for that matter. A simple trip to walmart is like a marathon for me. Do you seriously think I enjoy that? At my age, asking my mother to make me a sandwich... half the time I don't even bother because I feel so guilty about it, even though she'll do anything for me because she understands my situation. Sitting in a wheelchair is my favorite... getting stares from people, smart as* remarks because I parked in the handicapped spot... yeah, my life is a blast.

Lmasure, thanks for writing that out. I was going to write out a huge diatribe of my own, but figured it would be lost on someone who is so dismissive of chronic pain sufferers.

I always have a laugh when people say, "Oh, you can go to any doctor, say your back hurts, and come out with a script for 100 Vicodin!" I've certainly never experienced that, and I don't know any chronic pain patient who has. Like you said, we're usually just lectured about ZOMG, ADDICTIVE!!! and told to take Tylenol.

As much as I always say I wouldn't wish my illnesses on anyone, sometimes I wish people like Homer would get a little taste of it for a month or so. Or a week. Or a day. Then we'll see the tune they're singing.

I was team lead for a chronic pain program in the eighties, and all the time people would tell me their pain was level 10-the highest level-as they sat calmly smiling at me. I would then say, "If your pain is level 10 then we have to go to the ER because it is a medical emergency." Of course then they would back off and say, no, it was a 9 or an 8-still calmly smiling at me. I never thought they were not in pain. I did think they might be too focused on the pain. The aim of our program was to help them learn to function along with the pain. We never forced anyone to do anything they did not feel they could do. We always asked for a pain level then asked if the person could continue with the task and carefully documented everything. Most people called the type of doctor in this story "hookers."

Seen too much,

When I got hurt in Afganistan and for about a year later I don't ever remember smiling when a nurse or medic asked me what my number on the pain scale was. I don't ever remember smiling or yelling. I was tearing at times and listless but I could smile at a joke but the pain kept me from smiling.

However, I can smile now and I only have two more surgeries to go and I am walking pretty well. I can drive too.

Good for you rattus... glad to hear you're getting better.

Going into a pain clinic should give you options on care. That's kinda the whole point. Yes, there are some people who do need a strong medication, but others are able to try other things that very well may work for them. It's unfortunate that for a lot of people they have to go through all these tests and everything else the doctor suggests before they figure out that meds are the last and only viable option. For those that do get prescribed a narcotic, I fully agree it should be closely monitored.

Any person with chronic pain will not have a problem with being monitored - they're just thankful they're finally getting something that may work well for them. All they want is for the pain to lessen, or best of all, to go away. It typically takes years before you're prescribed a narcotic. Of course, you hear none of this in the news because it works the way it's supposed to and no problems happen. We only hear about the bad seeds, either the patients themselves or the doctors giving out the meds. The vast majority of people on pain meds do just fine.

Also, pain patients are usually prescribed a wide variety of medications to take along with a narcotic. It's not as easy as saying "here, have a montly of percocet and on your way"... It's more like 25-30 pills of varying types - per day. Yummy.

Rattus, I am definitely not describing patients like you. I did have some who writhed in pain. I did say that I never thought my patients were not in pain. I have also had one time personally when I was in pain so severe that even the strongest medicine was not effective in relieving it at all. My husband says that at that time (for several days) I was in a very tense fetal position with my hands over my face, my eyes clenched shut, and my teeth gritted. Apparently some of those who were treating me did not believe I was in pain despite my appearance because the doctor's admitting note described me as being "in no apparent distress" and several nurses notes listed my pain level as zero (They obviously made it up). Another doctor wrote a history for me (suppsedly from my husband) that was obviously fiction, though not fictional enough to be a different patient! Glad you're better, rattus. So am I now that I was correctly diagnosed after being discharged from that horrible place!

LittleBits, I'm glad you found the right meds. A lot of Docs learned little about pain or pain management while in med school and likely were told more about addiction as bad and their fault if they Rx it.

Pain management is a growing field and isn't wide spread. I only found it 5 yrs. ago at the University of Washington Medical school & Medical Center hospitals' "Pain Clinic."

I believe it has come into its own with the rise of "palliative care" for cancer and aids patients.