Max,

"Blamed for everything", so "always right"? Wow, what a guy - you never make a mistake.

You must be quite the partner.

No, it does not mean "we are always right". I certainly don't think like that.

Men are expected to take responsibility for the situation and defend/explain their actions. Accepting responsibility means accepting responsibility for failures as well, but explaining them (defense) helps to put it in a proper perspective.

darcylu...Max didn't say anything about "always being right". He simply stated a reasonable conclusion. Men tend to wish to fix things so they become defensive in order to place their minds in the place of critical thinking.

Max if I am wrong please correct me.

Yes, you are right txmom32. It is both a tendency in men to take charge, fix things, be responsible for the outcome, as well as the expectation of others that they act in that way. Men are good at defending and managing crisis type situations, women are good at nurturing and managing normal, everyday situations. Normal role division that benefits both sides. In caveman terms: men hunt, women cook what men killed.

Max,

I am glad to hear that. It was the "blamed for everything" which sounds, to me, like playing the victim.

Did I sound a little defensive above? lol

I agree that men relish the role of fixing, but that assumes something is broken, and ...

Wow, this is really getting me going ... lol.

Thanks for being gentle ... sometimes a person just needs to acknowledge what IS, and not be fixed.

Peace :D

Yes, I thought it came from 'blamed for everything' which was a little sarcastic on my part. But it does reflect the trend. I think men resent plaing the victim and that is also how it ties with this study: getting defensive is natural for men - they refuse to be victimized.

No problem darcylu, men can be gentle too ;)

As to 'assuming something is broken'... men are usually glad to follow the principle of "if it ain't broke, don't fix it". We must be told that something is broken (or shown by body language) and only then we assume our natural defensive position.

Max makes a point that can often be true, however, I think it is important to point out that not all women are comfortable in the "Betty Crocker" role of expressing stress. I have run into many female United States Marines that would fit the articles definition of Defensive Behavior and they seem to be the better for it. As scientists (and a society) we get into serious trouble when we assume that people are easily divided into behavioral groups by sex.

Max,

I just don't get that. Surely you don't mean women aren't expected to take responsibility for their actions, or to explain themselves, or to offer solutions?

LOL... hey I do too!

Well Piggy, I'll bet you're the most relaxed person on the planet then huh?

See, Piggy - assertive! Works for guys, LOL.

Thanks for sharing! Now I understand your screen name better. Oh, and grow up and stay out of serious conversations.

I believe they told you to be "assertive" not "insertive".

JavierD...Oddly enough I reserve sex as just for fun. For instance when I have really good days and wish to sleep fulfilled well the obvious answer is a good cuddle turning into a good rumpus under the sheets. My darling dear one and I tend to plan lunch dates rather than dinner dates, saves on babysitter costs, and well a bit of afternoon delight. Then of course there are those just because we are sharing, giving, people moments.

Yoga is just for me...Sex with my darling dear one is a shared equally giving experience.

Makeup sex is hot and dirty and good.

Reason why I said " Make up sex " is because the article portrays an image from both angles of the spectrum when it comes to men and women in regards to this. lol, I always say...a dinner, dance, followed by sex( the mood will determine the type of sex) will cure all problems. People tend to be less stressful in a environment such as Miami.

Of course I agree with you @txmom32 that it MUST be a shared equally giving experience. Maybe its me, I'm extremely sexual and thats how I fix all my problems. I don't know, I'm just saying :-)

Fair enough Javier. I don't tend to have make-up sex as I don't wish to create an arena where sex is the outcome for conflict. That is not to say the morning after an argument and resolution can't start with additional connection.

Thanks for mentioning that. Large conclusions from a small study. But it sure gets people talking!

It certainly does! This topic, in a broader context, is something people enjoy talking about anyway. The differences between men and women always seem to lead to interesting conversations.

You are absolutely right. Someone else mentioned social engineering, as in this news item being that, but the engineering is already in place and merely being commented on by this study.

You guys are "ALWAYS" right ... thanks.

Stick to you guns, never compromise and never apologize. Protect your egos at all costs.

But it sounds like you already know that. You certainly don't need to here that from me; I am merely a woman.

I have an opinion on this matter but would first like to address DJM78.

I don't mind being challenged. Your defensiveness is your way of relieving stress, apparently, so I am okay with it. This is actually one of the most eye-opening newsvine threads I have read.

This is awesome. Buttons are being pushed all over the place, and I fell for it, but I am finished "playing".

I, for one, am glad to notice how/why this became so revealing, thanks to Max above. This has been a great stress-reliever, I hope it was as good for you as it was for me.

And for those of you who were, how shall I put it, "not happy" with my previous response ... It wasn't personal. My words were personal to me only, your words are not taken personally by me.

Thanks, newsvine, this is a great science experiment.

Peace.

I’m a female – just to get that point across first. I worked on Wall Street for fifteen years and I assure you that I was assertive, aggressive and confident – but charismatic and witty – in all my professional relationships. I am also very attractive, so of course this worked in my favor. If I needed a presentation drafted from my marketing team and they didn’t deliver on time – trust me – they feared the freaking consequences of me telling them to get their balls out of their wife’s purse and get the job done. I flirted with CEO’s of major corporations just to get insider information from them – which I usually did. And I would rip a new one for any hedge fund/short sellers that worked against my agenda. So for anyone out there who thinks that a female is incapable of being assertive, or cannot handle criticism – I have news for you – men are the more ordinary, more powerless and weaker beings. The thing women (and men) have yet to learn is nobody gives you power. You just take it.

So what you did was simply exploit the realities that I've outlined. You bucked the trend to your own advantage. That's cool for you, but doesn't really disprove the theory. If anything it just reinforces the feeling of such behavior being "against the norm".

Your confusion here is typical. Nobody said women weren't more powerful. You are. Men have created the world around us based on the power of women. However, this power is what makes you neurotic and makes you feel the need to act like aceholes regularly and protect your facade. I didn't make an argument against this, I made it FOR it. I'm saying stop ABUSING your power. I'm saying that, despite the fact that you think men are stupid and easily duped, they actually AREN'T.

I'm well ahead of the curve for a man who is able to express his thoughts and feelings. Most men don't have the same capacity and instead "act out". He doesn't know why he's acting like a jerk, he doesn't know why he cheats" etc.

I'm just here to inform you that it's because of these standard operating procedures that ar in place. The automatic game of psychological and emotional abuse that is considered a rite of passage has contributed to the decline of our society. If women want to see a change, it's on THEM. Since the benefits of equal lib, there have been a lot of archaic societal practices that were NOT given up. Women as a whole have not come in to their own and embraced the responsibilities of the cause. What was never discussed in the "battle for equality" is the 8th century practices that needed to be discarded...

Yeah, believe me... I could write a book today. Plenty of chapters, lots of depth!

You have NO IDEA what you are talking about!!

Just curious....what flippin' planet do you live on??

DJM- Funny. I actually agree with that one. I still don't agree with you over all, but I have to own that I just posted a response that touched on a similar theme to your last post below. The homer simpson stereotype is just as sexist and out-dated as the fifty's housewife. But do you really think that men are at the bottom of the power structure in today's society? I don't think it goes quite that far. I think we're all kind of embroiled in cycles of abuse for which there's no clear causal or effectual definitive origin. Kind of becomming a chicken/egg issue there. I would read your book... it would probably make me furious :).. but would be worth reading.

From my experience, it's the exact opposite. Women are constantly told they're wrong before they can even argue a point. They are not taken seriously. Try getting a man to GENUINELY (not in a martyr way) admit he is wrong. You'll be at that for days. A lot more is expected of women than of men, from my experience. Men have more they are allowed to get away with.

As the mother of both a son and daughter, I did my best to provide them with plenty of love, work, trucks and dolls, books, activities and tried to keep their minds open as they interact with the world. My husband was there for all of it, in his own way ...

I'm sure I/we could have done a lot of things better ... in a perfect world. We treated our kids the way we always wished we had been treated by our parents ... as best we could, with out overdoing it (too much). And it was hard, at times.

Our parents did the best they could raising us, as well. It may not have been pretty along the way, but we turned out pretty well ... I no long blame them, even though their behavior is always eye opening to our kids.

Looking back, I had a lot blame and hate for my parents, but eventually I realized that they would never change (and all of my siblings have pretty much accepted this fact). We don't know all that happened in their lives. For our peace of mind, we have "forgiven" them and travel longs was to all be together when we can. I now treat them the way I treat my kids, without any useless "lessons" from me.

But being a parent helped me get to that point, just as having a boy and a girl allows me to try to see things from both sides.

It can be so challenging and just plain hard work. Trying not to react, blame, fix, and actually listening and observing without judgement ... Sometimes I just have to take a deep breath, realize that I am reacting to something, and start over again.

But it is worth the effort, for me. I am able now to have peace.

:D

I have to agree with Angela2009. I can 't tell you how many times my wife and I have talked to a salesperson or a professional of some sort and they'll look at me, not her. And she's no shrinking violet, either. As to DJM78's reference to Al Bundy, Ray Romano, Homer Simpson--not to mention Chevy Chase in various roles--they whole point is that they're lovable goofs. They screw up and can't see beyond their nose and we love them for it, at least men do. They're basically kids that have never grown up, which is a role that our society tolerates more often for men than for women. Angela should understand, though, that when men are called on being wrong, they often take it as an attack on their identity, not just a criticism of an isolated action. And when a man loses a job (better get back to mine!), it can be like a loss of his basic worth. Men have their own set of problems.

I do understand what you mean. In the end, it's hard to be either gender and especially in this day in age, it seems every failure is crippling to everyone's identity. I think if everyone could see each other more as human beings first and - both women and men - put their egos on hold - there might be less need to be so defensive and more honest communication.

DJM78, don't put all women in one box. I'm a woman and I perform stand up comedy regularly. I have no illusions that I'm new at it but I can tell you that I AM funny. Maybe some women can't laugh at themselves or be self-deprecating to get a laugh...but a real woman laughs at herself and has no pedestal.

As far as your comment about men in sitcoms, sadly that is how most husbands seem to behave. It's horrible and immature and annoying. But also very funny. Unfair to the good husbands? Sure. But good in a comedy? Yes.

Really? I find that women in positions of authority whom I know are challenged to their faces as well as undermined behind their backs by both men and other women. Double whammy. Laughing at ourselves is essential, but let's look at reality in the world - men make the rules and some women have influence. Stress is indeed different; we are in different social locations. Add race to the mixture and the whole conversation becomes more complex. Alleviate stress? Get into a kayak...

Well, here in FL both sexes take our lumps. Pretty much everyone is aggressive here, and no one wants to admit they are wrong.

This is true. Life's not fair. We like to believe it is and claim equality, but we're not there yet and i don't really believe we ever will be. People will always have biased judgemental opinions that effect how they treat others.

Equality is a sham, period, for everything..Gender, Race, etc.. People always react differently to others based on appearance, upbringing, and their genetic tendencies, this has never and will never change, no matter how Star Trek everyone wishes the world to be. And as men and women generally percieve, react, and act differently to each other and their enviroment..

Frankly I'd blame special interest groups for the quotas and lowered bars for women where it comes to armed forces service training, public servants, and such. As for the courts, you'd have to blame your own genetics and that of other men, as another known fact is if you want more lienent treatment or a better overall chance in court get an opposite sex jury as we each generally go far easier on each other. Since most judges are male, this should not shock many that women would get easier sentencing as a rule. Not that you'd know it from some of the comments here.

Ok, this is the kind of silly sexist nonsense that is way, way off topic. (like the thrice divorced guys on this thread who actually laughingly conclude their divorces say something about the women rather than themselves.)

oop...a little defensive

Yes, but in ways we're just beginning to discover.

It's the ways we're different...and the same...that seem to cause people no end of anxiety. People do like their stereotypes.

Maybe it was the way you criticised. Three out of three can't be that wrong.

Out of curiosity, did that reply stress you out?

And yes, I would love to hear all about this mythical way to approach criticism in a healthy manner with women. There is never a good way to poke a hole in the facade of perfection...... 3 out of 3 just confirms that not one of them would stand for being less than the image of perfection. I've found the same overwhelming numbers in my experience as well.

Yes, let's pretend this is NOT obviously the case with women, and that nobody knows it, right?? Wow, ironic. This message board has become a litmus test for the reality of this theory.

I don't intend anything personal by this DJM and Clarence, but it sounds to me like you are just associating with the wrong women. Yes, there's a lot of pressure put on women in society to be "perfect". There are pressures put on men too, but I would argue that there are differences. Lots of women (yes, perhaps more than men) do turn this pressure into a really frustrating and totally unhealthy way of dealing with other people (especially men), but lots of women have figured this out. Let's face it, nobody's perfect, and no one (not men either) likes to take criticism. I've certainly been in my fair share of situations when it's the men who can't manage to handle the critique.

"Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned"

that saying is outdated and inaccurate. Men are the ones who beat and kill their wives/girlfriends when they leave/try to leave.

Refuse to be a victim. Arm yourself. If you know the danger, prepare for it.

Max, the quote is actually "Hell hath no fury like a woman's scorn." Quite different in focus, actually.

ms. hoo,

the instances of women committing violent crimes is on the rise. look at Mrs. Bobbit, just recently in my area there was a woman who shot and killed her boyfriend, not 100% sure why but there was drugs & booze involved.

DJM: ok, so obviously you've had some bad experiences with women in your life and are hurt. Got it. But your "facade of perfectionism" thing, broad generalizations of women and immediate betlittling of disagreement speaks volumes about what you've failed to learn from those experiences. Until you get that women are individuals, you're not likely to have any better luck figuring out how to get along with half the population.

When men are assertive, they are called strong. When women are assertive, we are called a *itch. Or worse.
Reading the comments, it's disheartening to see sexist stereotypes are alive and well.

Far from being challenged, many are simply being carried. If they were men they would have been fired or at least not promoted.

Alot of them just aren't very good and they're always leaning on other people to get their work done. Men put up with it because they want to help, she has nice boobs, whatever and everyone's productivity goes down.

More often than not, they don't have the problem solving ability but I guess it depends on the industry.

They work probably 2x as hard as me but they can't do the same amount of work in an hour that I can do in 15mins so it probably is stressful.

A smaller percentage women are extremely capable but they sometimes have the opposite problem.

They are always trying to prove they are just as good but they go too far and it's like "we get it".

The competent ones should probably ease back a little and let the work speak for itself.

wow godaddy72. I just really disagree with you and think that what you are saying is incredibly sexist, but I would like to hear you out. Do you think that men are just, on the whole, smarter and more capable than women? Any why do you think that? I'm actually just interested in your defense of that opinion. Those are not intended to be politicising or pointed questions. I feel that I know lots of capable women who are not constantly trying to prove themselves (unless put in a situation in which they are forced to do so). They just do their jobs effeciently and well and are satisified that they are capable within their fields. Do you dislike women in general?

wellies,

I understand that when I take the harsh road that I have, I'm not going to win any contests for favorite person, but to answer your question... Yes and no. The 'no' being that I have met some AWESOME women in my life that are cool as the other side of the pillow. Funny, sweet, self-deprecating, etc. All the traits I say don't exist. The thing is, I'm talking majority.

The problem we have here is that these few women I've known have only served to outline the severe derangement that our society suffers as outlined above.

Comments like mine are always deflected off as "woman hating" and the like so that people don't have to actually THINK about the reality that's being spewed. Believe me, I know it's not pretty. That's why I'm frustrated! If I hated women, I wouldn't care. I would just disregard. I take up the fight because I want to see improvement and I want to eventually meet my better half. But the 90% of ugliness just makes it a very tiring effort. You get the overwhelming feeling that it's only going to get worse. Just look at the numbers.

I know men aren't perfect. But that's kinda the point. We've established that... every day, all the time! Now, here in 2010... maybe it's time for the "other side" to start doing a little reflection?... Biggest problem is, women defend women out of hand. The "good ones" just operate on their own, which is ironically the very reason why they're good... the other 90% hold the party line because they believe that's what you NEED to do to get the upper hand. The effects are working against women and they need to realize it. The male of your species is a direct reflection of the female. Women set the tone and men follow suit. If you see a society full of a$$holes (which I do!) then you need to look in the mirror a little closer. The behaviors of men are a REaction... always have been from Day 1.

DJM78- I see what you're saying and would like to go on the record as saying I never called you a woman hater. I just disagree. I think that it's difficult to talk about women having always been the causative force in our society of a-holes (i.e. "the behaviors of men are a RE action") given the fact that women have only had any societal clout for such a relatively short amount of time. For hundreds of years it was total cool to beat, enslave etc... any woman as the total property of men. I'm playing the "oh what a hard road we've had to hoe card" I'm simply using the historical reference to contextualize my argument. We had to do a bit of banding together in the beginning just to get some basic human rights. And I do think that the there's plenty of that amongst men as well (think "old boy's club" etc...) that makes it very hard for women to be able to achieve an equal footing so that they don't have to be fighting tooth and nail. I do agree, sometimes women defend women who don't deserve the defense, but I think it's because they feel like they have to defend their position as women. And with all of the descrimination out there, I do think that some women play the "I was held back because I am a woman" card. And that does kind of ruin it for the rest of us by putting us in the position of defending a few women who don't deserve it just to allow us to keep the rights we've worked (and are working really hard still) to achieve. I just don't think that's the majority. And I DO think that the femenist movement needs to really look at itself, because now that we are no longer out right the property of men, and are able to achieve a degree of equality, that self reflection that you are talking about is really important. We need to wipe out the man-haters. They make us look stupid. And we need to realize that we live in a day where actually, more women than men are attending college-so we're not exactly being out right opressed, and we need to change our language accordingly. I think I can understand where you're coming from, but I have to strongly disagree.

DJM78 - you sound like someone who has been burned quite a bit in your lifetime, beginning as a boy according to what you wrote earlier.

I agree with Alicia perhaps, but I don't intend it as a slight. I think it sounds like you've met some pretty terrible women. I just don't think that that's the majority and I hope you meet more than just " you're other half" but also the rest of the cool ones out there. I think there are quite a few of us that are worth getting to know. Most of my friends have always been men, but I don't think that there's anything wrong with women. It's just a personality/hardwiring thing.

That said, your language does come across as a bit woman hating and it's difficult not to take personally. Again, not calling you a woman hater.

lola3 got it right. Women are expected to be submissive and nurturing at all costs, or else risk a permanent reputation as a "bitc*". There's a lot of stress when there's nothing you'd like better than to tell a SOB exactly what you think but you're aware of society's code for women and know you'll end up paying for it one way or the other. The result is having to keep your anger inside and take it out in other, often insidious ways. I think that's one of the reasons some of the nastiest people I've had to deal with have been women. They tend to work behind the scenes. Men are allowed to be more honest about their anger and get it over with from the start.

@Lola3 - women are mostly called b1tches by... other women.

In fact, there are over 90 identified types: http://andiamnotlying.com/2010/types-of-bitches/

@Anne - society's code for men is "go kill the bad people for us". Therefore, society's code for women is "shut up and help your man kill the bad people for us".

I'm not saying it's right, I'm just describing the phenomenon.

wellies - I think in technical fields like IT there is no contest. It's not that they're lazy but they need a lot of help.

There are some who really know their stuff without any help at all but few and far between.

Other fields I know women excel in but...

I sit here and have to answer questions about their tasks while I do my job. Seems like I should get paid more.

So you can have your opinion but that's what I do every day.

Anne - not really.

Men don't act the way women do when they're called bit**es.

You can be assertive but you can't be aggressive and tempermental.

I think when women try to be like assertive men they get it wrong and go overboard.

godaddy72 -- My comments are based on what I see every day. Very often a woman will be assertive then made to feel guilty and then she feels she has to backtrack and try to smooth things over. When women overreact it's usually because their comments are ignored or dismissed. Once in a while I'd like the freedom to not have to take the high road and be diplomatic -- and get away with it.

"This comparison isn't a problem except that sometimes, these male peers who are in every other way their equals except that they have more social currency because they are male, are no more or are maybe even less capable." - wellies

I agree with most of what you posted except for this bit. If the male is her equal (as in, equivalent) in every way except in regard to gender, then it is just as sexist to say he is less capable than her as the other way around. I will give you the benefit of the doubt and assume this was a grammatical faux pas, but I thought I'd point it out to you all the same.

"Far from being challenged, many are simply being carried. If they were men they would have been fired or at least not promoted." - godaddy72

I will not claim to be a sociologist, but you're making a very broad assumption here, and we all know that silly saying about assuming things.

Yes, it is more difficult for a company to dismiss a woman for incompetence than a man for fear of retaliation in the court system. Sadly, this is a fact. It is, however, also a necessary evil so long as there are women being wrongfully dismissed on account of discrimination. Both men and women should look forward to the day when that is no longer the case.

I am perhaps an unusual account, as I work for a company in a technical field and yet our gender ratio is roughly equal. Perhaps it is because of this "abnormal" working environment, but I have found that my respect for a coworker or superior is based on two things: 1) their individual competence, and 2) their ability to work amicably with myself. As with men, there are women who make the grade, and women who don't. Does either gender tend to fare better than the other? Not so far as I can tell, as each basket has plenty of bad eggs, but then I'm just one very limited perspective.

Closet Poster,

Yes, perhaps that was unclear. I wasn't referring to any capability based on gender ,but rather that relative capability doesn't always figure into the comparison. I didn't mean that the male peers are maybe even less capable because they are male, Simply that some people are more capable than others regardless of gender, and that that fact is highlighted when a less capable employee who happens to be male gets the promotion over any more capable employee who just happens to be female. I hope that I have been more clear here.

Go Daddy ---I hope you're not really with Go Daddy because I doubt they'd be happy about being branded by your thinking about the abilities of their female workforce--

Agreeing with your fight/flight theory...

Thank you.

Constantly telling a woman how she is different from a man only reinforces old stereotypes. Let her discover for herself what she is.

I just find most of these comments amusing really. I doubt anyone has any issue with the ridding of stereotypes. What's noted (supposedly) here is how the "average" person of the gender reacts. Individuality doesn't get ratings.

It strikes at the heart of the matter when you can note a rather backlash tone from the female comments due to the article itself and other than 1 or 2 fairly innocuous comments that becomed viewed as women-hating due to the subject matter.

I don't recall too many calls of "B.S.!" when studies into general multi-tasking, and pain tolerance were done. Since they cast a more considered favorable view for women they were exempt it seems. Other points of those test "studies" were skipped over, the limited test group for the later wasn't questioned, nor how the test was done or if it was blind or not. As many other argueable points could have been contended.

Frankly I think our society faces far more of a threat from the combined stupidity of both sexes taking what is "reported" on at face value. Journalism is also a joke, it pays to incite, excite, and stress; it does not pay for purely factual information to be presented from credible sources with proper investigation.

I think that's pretty astute mike. props.

Mike,

I agree with your opinion.

And for me (just thinking out loud here): As long as "some type of calming period where emotions can settle a bit" does not simply mean "get over it".

I am just pushing my own buttons here. :D

God bless Texas women and long live Molly Ivins!

Something to remember when you feel "belittled because you don't have a penis".

Men are treated the same way but they react to it differently.

Office bully - (derisively) Hey there ...chief.

Man - (smirks) Yeah boss

-------------------------------------

Office bully - Hey there princess

Woman - Who are you calling princess? What is your problem! That's discrimination you know.

If a man acted that way people would shun him as well.

godaddy- I completely disagree. I think that the bullying in my experience is a little bit more one-sided than that. My experience is more often that the office bullying comes from groups. And in the experiences that I'm talking about, it's groups of men bully-ing the handful of women. It's just not as overt as what you have described. I can't remember the last time I heard the kind of bullying that you are talking about. It sounds kind of outdated and these days it's considered pretty unacceptable no matter the gender you're talking to. I witness more bullying of the covert sort. Men not including women socially, men talking over women by group consent in meetings, men putting down the ideas of women in favor of those of men regardless of merit( the "bro's before ho's " mentality in the work force.) And I've heard men admit to it openly in after work discussion. With harrassment being such a buzz-word, most people won't go there, but rather they put you in a position of having to really fight for your place on a team without having anything to really legitimately complain about without sounding like the whiney brat that you portray in your previous post (I can't imagine any self-respecting woman that I personally know in the workplace that would respond the way that you portrayed "woman" above)

Go Daddy, I'm guessing again you don't have much interaction or experience with the C-suite ? Your characterizations are a bit far fetched--and you can't seem to move beyond your own experience and the stereotyping (by the way, to quote Dr. Phil: how's that working for ya?)

Wellies: One thing I've learned in life is that the higher up the ladder you go, the more self-confidence you're likely to find--the more self-confidence, the less this stuff is likely to be an issue because the focus is on whoever the hell can help get it done right.

grrrrl4ever, I hear what you're saying, but there may be a natural reason for such behavior. I love watching Animal Planet, and it seems that when males confront other males (for food, mates or territory) they instinctively know that the conflict could result in death or serious injury. Unless he's adament about it, males in the wild will seek to avoid this dangerous escalation. I wonder if human males are thus wired. With higher levels of testosterone which leads us to more aggressive behavior, maybe avoidance (postponement?) is a leftover survival strategy that pisses modern societal women off to no end?

Mike-588190

I think what you said has validity. I too watch sci-ch and I have seen the same or similar program. However, one should have the common sense to use their intellect to override biological programing when it is not productive. I've always have been a firm believer that males and females when working togeather balance each other and improve the outcome of almost any situation. Each sex needs to respect the abilities the other.

That's really interesting Mike. But then, I wonder how that carries over into conflict/escalation in men's relationships with women. Is the implication that it is the woman who is responsible for most instances of escalation? Or perhaps, as the modern societal woman has grown to emulate masculine behaviour in order to gain societal currency, she has positioned herself more as the object of, or in the trajectory of, the male avoidance/postponement instinct as opposed to her historical positioning as the victim of "male aggression"? And is it this same masculinization of the modern woman that leads to her desire for confrontation? That would explain why there seems to be the trend, at least in this discussion, of women wanting to "confront" the feelings/situation in the heat of the moment, but then feeling uncomfortable about the ensuing defensiveness(on both sides). Perhaps it's because we're operating with appropriated masculine behaviors and therefore against the "female" hard wiring?

grrrrl- I wonder if it's actually that easy to override the biological/evolutionary imperative. I often observe that men and women operate differently and can make an argument for a sort of genetic wiring at work. However, I do think it is important to use the intellect to understand why we operate the way we do on a subconscious level so that we don't always ACT on those impulses. I'm not one to excuse the behaviours, but I do think it's helpful to understand the differences. It's not only useful in avoiding the negative consequences of these wired impulses, it also allows us to exploit our strengths.

Here's where I get in trouble (feeling the need to avoid here - smiles)...

In my experience, women have been aggressors. When a woman has been angry about a topic, and I sought to avoid the discussion, I've been slapped, shoved and even spat upon. Society teaches men not to hit women. Society teaches women that they should not expect to be hit by men. Most (not all) men will walk away when the arguement escalates to this level, and because of societal norms, I believe many women feel free (freer) to express themselves both verbally and physically at the height of their anger. Men pummeling their confronter (in this case, a woman) is not accepted by society. This behavior from women seems to be the accepted norm in society if we witness the number of movies, television shows, etc. where women will tend to slap a man while angry. In that case, yes, grrrl4ever, both sexes need to resist their natural leanings in the interest of a working society. And to your point, wellies, as society as has become more accepting of women's freedoms and rights, yes, women have further engaged in behaviors more typical of men historically. Women are smoking and drinking more on average, and women have felt more comforatble engaging in/initiating casual sexual behavior. I would assume that aggression might follow these trends as well. Mind you, these are just my opinions as a layman.

OMG! were doing it! Cconversing in a civilized manner. Listening to and exploring different and sometimes opposing views without bashing each other to pieces. Now if only we can bottle and market it. Better yet just slip it into everyones favorite bevrage! Sorry couldn't help myself :)

Mike- Perhaps men mis-interpret a woman'squestioning a males behavior or decision making as aggression when she is only trying to understand the reasoning behind it. We women also need to understand a males apparently natural inclination to be defensive. Wellies- I agree it is not very easy to override genetically programmed behavior.

Grrrrl4ever, while I can't speak for all men, I remember the sense of dread I got (and still get) with my then wife (currently ex). If she brought up a controversial topic, the beginning wasn't eased into while stating "let's find a way to solve this to each other's mutual satisfaction". Instead, it often came out as a verbal attack. Divorced for 7 years, with a 12 year old son that we co-parent, and I have yet to find a way to communicate with her in a peaceful manner. LOL... in fact, I remember taking a deep breath before approaching her in the beginning of summer, to ask her to remind my son to pack 2 weeks worth of clothing for his 4 week stay with me. Sure enough, it quickly became an arguement where she chose to lash out (forgive me for stating a one-sided story. I know each tale has 2 sides). There was no need for this, but inside, I knew the outcome was very possible, and I considered not making the request at all. My stress did indeed rise as I brought up the controversial topic.

There's no way to misinterpret a woman's intent when the approach is thoughtful and solution-minded. And there definitely isn't any way to misinterpret when a woman approaches you with a slap or shove! LOL!!! I think how you interpret a woman depends on a bunch of cues (tone, body language, phrasing, etc). These are all things we can be aware of during calm moments, as opposed to an "in the heat of it" type of discussion.

She sounds like one very angry person. Some people for whatever reason are just plain jerks and nothing will ever change that. In situations like that I am all for the avoidence thing. There are way too many people who have a "its my way or nothing" attitude. I am guilty of heat of the moment explosions as much as anyone and frequently end up appologising once I've processed through the event. Emotions are a wonderful thing, but they are are often the instrument of our destuction.

I completely agree with you guys. I have been known to have a terrible temper and have had to do a lot of work on finding ways to cope in heated situations without blowing my lid. I don't lash out physically, but I can be guilty of saying some pretty nasty things. I just don't think it's gendered. I've been in relationships where there wasn't really a clear instigator (each would think the other was the "source" of the conflict, when really, by the time things got nasty, it had usually been a long build on both sides). Fortunately, unlike your ex, I have worked to develop a long fuse so in order for me to get irrational, you have to really be gunning for it. that said, I also have an ex who has a totally unpredictable and violent (though not at all physically so , thankfully) temper. Sometimes I had no idea where it came from. I would often just tell him to "take a walk" and if he still felt that way when he got back in 20 min. we could usually talk about it like people.

...and he was a man. So I think the capability is certainly there on both sides.

I wonder how much all of this is attributable to low self-esteem. The less one has the more one is apt to strike out at others. I for one used to view almost everything said that did not agree with my views as a personal attack. Once I developed self-confidence and self-esteem the less and less I felt I had to lash out and defend my position to the wall. Lack of self-esteem has long been a issue for women in the past (your just a girl, what do you know). Well actually, quite a damm lot thank you. With increasing opportunities for women and women saying out loud to the world that we count, low self-esteem caused by lack of opportunities for women will become a thing of the past. But we do need to stand up and take it for ourselves.

It was good conversing with you two ladies on these topics. The good thing is that while we may have gone through hell learning these things, we can teach our kids how to cope without them going through the trial and error phase in their own adult lives. Take care! :)

Well Mike I was going to tell you that if it's one thing you ought to learn before you go is not to judge all women by your ex...but I guess you're off to teach your kids (and I'm off to teach mine). Let's just hope they're not having the same conversations in another generation.

something tells me you're a fan of "chatroulette"