dewydan;

Well, sir, I am a PTSD sufferer from Vietnam, and I can tell you, you DO NOT want these soldiers back "out there" because, even if you believe that being around those that also suffer is a "Best Answer", you are placing the active firearms and devices that very possibly triggered his emotional state to begin with. He will then, if not given the PROPER treatment, blame those that placed him there and the condition, even with "Anti-Depressant therapy", and just come totally, uncontrollably, unglued at some point with Devistating results possibly by Killing and wounding his own Soldier companions. I have been to war since I left Vietnam, and I can tell you that the way a PTSD sufferer is treated in Theater is to be told to "Buck up, you are a soldier and you are expected to act in a particular manner, regardless of the situation, so use your training and don't let that other Crap bother you, you're dragging down the unit." These are the typical replies from Field Supervisors, and not just Random occurances. The severe( Suicidal ) PTSD Soldier has no place on the battlefield, he belongs in serious counseling, possibly in a Hospital environment. I have seen PTSD Soldiers "Go off" and severly wound other Soldiers, also wrecking vital equipment. I have been through PTSD counseling since 2001, and every year I start new, it is the same "Workbook", group, 16 weeks, and start over. I took myself off Anti-depressants, because the VA couldn't get me an appointment with my Doc, when I called in 3 months early, and I ran out.
I feel better, I don't go to PTSD "Classes" anymore, and I for one saw a VA Counselor be sent to Baghdad on active duy come back, and when they did, they were NOT allowed to see us prior Patients, all because the Counsellor then knew what we were really talking about, and all the VA wanted to do is fill a slot for a counselor. We all missed Them very much, and when we were allowed to talk to them, OUT OF THE GROUP session, they said that they never could believe what we were saying, but now did, and they were angry because the VA wouldn't aknowledge the problem for what it REALLY was but wanted it swept under the carpet. The truth the Army and VA don't want civilians to know the actual damage and dangers of Combat PTSD, they have no way to work with it, they do studies, nothing happens.

To put that soldier back with an active Combat unit could very well Waste his mind completely, endanger others, and allow him a easy out if he is infact Suicidal. NO don't send him back, dewydan, you have no idea what you are talking about, I do, first-hand, and over many years, don't send him back. SESSION,

I am a Vietnam Vet ('67-68) and date back to before PTSD had been "discovered." Then they called it "combat fatigue." The military's answer was to limit the "involuntary" tours to 12 months and not a day more (except in a very small number of special cases.)

Now, soldiers are expected to return to war zones time and time again. The rates of suicides and divorces and dangerous behavior and PTSD are through the roof and they cannot figure out why. I can figure out why. These guys will eventually reach a psychological place where they feel they have nothing to lose because society has discarded them, and become convinced that they will continue to be sent back until they come home in a body bag.

I do not believe for a minute that the military has the soldiers' best interests at heart when then decide to "treat" them "in place." This is just a way of keeping their TOA filled despite what amount to psychological combat losses.

I really, really feel for these guys. This country has taken the coward's way out of this war because it failed to learn the primary lesson of Vietnam. Unless the American public has more "skin" in the game than it's expendable young people, it is meaningless. And America chjose to fight in Iraq and Afghanistan at no cost to the American public. Both wars are being fought on credit cards and the public has not been asked to sacrifice one dime or one tiny bit of their standard of living to back the wars.

Compare this to WWII/Korea when there was severe rationing and taxes were increased to pay for the wars and people were asked to invest their savings in "War Bonds" to show their support. Americans felt they were sharing in the sacrifice even though they were keenly aware that doing without meat is not the same as doing without a leg and foregoing butter was not equivalent to foregoing the rest of a dead soldier's life.

These people that are being "treated" by keeping them in combat are not trusted by their comrades and are subject to what amounts to "house arrest." They receive minimal treatment and a handful of pills.

But even if they come home, the Veterans' Administration is a disgrace. Facilities are old and personnel are often the dregs of the medical world. PTSD treatment is a sham with around 90% of applicants for treatment being turned down because of alcohol or marijuana use (the policy required clean and sober urine for 90 days prior to treatment.) They do this knowing that virtually 100% of PTSD sufferers try to self-medicate with alcohol and anything else they can lay their hands on.

Often PTSD sufferers are forced to participate in experiments such as one in the Atlanta VA that required them to play shoot-em-up video games several hours a day in order to receive medications. This was supposed to "de-sensitize" them to flashbacks of combat.

We can do better than this, but Americans are too lazy and self-interested to support their servicepeople with anything more than words. There will never be a war tax or any form of sharing of the ills of war. We will continue to treat our young men and women as endlessly expendable cannon fodder. We will continue to discard their broken bodies in shamelessly inadequate VA hospitals and bury them without even adequate records-keeping in our disgraceful national military cemeteries (well over half of which are no longer maintained at all.)

All you have to do is say that American citizens must pay-as-you-go for war and every American will be expected to sacrifice whenever the country goes to war. And America will always be at peace.

I don't know enough to render any kind of judgement about what is right for our soldiers suffering this way, But I really hope our our medical specialists can finally come up with something that works.

As far as getting out of this war.... yeah... okay.

BUT we will be fighting these terrorists for a couple of generations, whether we wish it or not. We need to come up with a way to win and not tear our world down at the same time.

All the best wishes to our soldiers in some damned dangerous places.

Thank you for all you have done for our country, my heart is full of gratitude but it also aches for the personal sacrifice you and your buddies have made for others. Our nation will be held accountable for the neglect of caring for our courageous, wonderful service people.

There is a technique that sometimes helps with PSTD as well as other distressing emotions we have in life. If you would like to check it out you can go to www.EFTuniverse.com for information. They have some videos that show how the technique works..you don't even have to believe it works.. I have personally seen some unbelievable results.

Please take care of your self.

Having spent the better part of their young lives conceiving, gestating, feeding, raising and educating morally, intellectually and spiritually a twenty some year old offspring which could all be ended by a lone AK-47 Bullet sending their young pride home in a body bag or in pieces left from an IED (improvised explosive device), Parents are very worried that their kids might get sucked up into this whole middle east mess and Don't KNOW What To Do????????

MOMS and DADS LISTEN UP!!! If your Son or Daughter or both have just returned from a Fun Stint at the local Army Recruiter's War Games Video Arcade, using the Latest virtual firepower equipped weapons which have them in awe and thoroughly infecting them with "War Fever" and wanting to SIGN UP -EEEEEEEKKKKKKKKKKKK!!!!!!!!! -Take it Easy Mom - Take It Easy Dad! - HERE IS WHAT YOU DO: CALMLY have Him or Her or Both sit down with you in front of your DeskTop or Laptop, whichever you have in your home, and then Go To GOOGLE and Type IN: "US Armed Forces Enlistment Contract" and Presto! Up pops the devil himself! It is Free and there for all to view and read. Now go over this contract making sure Your Kids are reading it with you. They will SOON see that the Army promises NOTHING unless an Excellent Trade and/or Professional training program IS LISTED and SIGNED to by the RECRUITER. If NO training program is listed the army can put your offspring into VERY Dangerous Parts of the world grunting around with a rifle for Year and a half long deployments of the 8 year sign-up, 4 Active and 4"Recalled Reserve" which is what these Young Men and Women are facing Now. This armed forces enlistment contract MUST be signed by anyone who Joins Up at which point they are indentured servants to the whims of the Army officers who themselves are the offspring of the wealthy elite or republican club cadre politicos. They consider your Son and/or Daughter property of the army and will do whatever they wish with them. Now Once you have gone over the Army "Contract" with your kids, you have done your job and responsibility for protecting them. If they still have The Fever and insist on "Joining The Core" Well, at Least you have made sure They KNOW What They Are Getting Themselves into. And THAT, Moms and Dads is ALL you can do to keep your kids Out Of Harms Way....

Good Luck!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Robo Troll!!

PTSD is a difficult problem to treat and also to be identified as having those type issues. I had 2 combat tours in Iraq and I suffered from what I thought was PTSD like:

1. Unable to sleep due to severe nightmares

2. Being startled at the sound of large explosions, thunder from close lightning strikes, gunfire, or the sound of any type of air raid sirens. The screaming of a small child and any movie or show that had a scence where unarmed innocent civilians were killed or wounded by weapons fire.

3. Unable to fall asleep until making several security checks around the house. Checking every door and window at least 2 or 3 times.

4. Sought fellow veterans out and drank way too much alcohol to "bury" feelings.

5. Failed marriage.

6. Extremely short tempered and not wanting to leave the confines of my house or local community.

7. Seeking a table that faces the front exit or where I could view the entire space at a local and public eating or dining facility.

It went on and on. When I went to the VA for evaluations for treatment I was told that I did not have PTSD. I had "hyper-sensitivity" and thus did not rate any treatment, disability rating, or anything? Apparently at the start of Iraq and Afghanistan the status of PTSD was given even to service members who had never been down range and entry level Soldiers were being given the title of PTSD suffering based on a training exercise? But with the VA and DOD bursting at the seam with wounded warriors the term and rating has become extremely difficult to obtain. I was granted "Tramuatic Brain Injury" from mortar rounds knocking me off a parked LMTV truck but no PTSD. Cracked spine, deaf in one ear, can't run every again, and to make matters worse, when I came home, they found a tumor at the base of my brain cord and spine? So I had that removed and treated, but no PTSD. Trust me, Jack Daniels does not work to treat PTSD, I learned that the hard way when another combat buddy and myself both went through divorces, removal of our families, and no support group to assist.

Our veterans are wondering when will the American public take 5 minutes and lend us a hand?

NO, Mac... what you have is PTSD. Any psych tech with half a brain can diagnose that one. If you are active duty... get yourself sent to a WTU/WTB. ASAP! If you are discharged, use a group like the VFW or AMVETS to help you fight with the VA.

You are welcome to PM me and talk if you think that it would help, also. I have some contacts in a few veterans groups that may be of assistance. And I also am good at listening with no judgments.

Welcome home, and thank you, for all that you have done.

@ Brite:

I appreciate the kind words and assistance. I was kicked out (temporary medically retired) from active duty, which is a whole other story on how things are screwed up in the WTU section. Actually I have been on the dreaded "TRTL" aka "the turtle list" for a year. Recently I received my notice that I will have to return to the military medical side of the house for verification and medically testing to ensure that I keep and maintain my military retirement benefits. If I drop anywhere in overall disability percentage then I lose everything (military medical benefits, retirement pay, base priviledges, etc) this whole process is keeping me up at night and it drives me crazy because if I was single I wouldn't care but my family and kids are on military tri-care insurance and if they tell me that I am "broken" but not able to return to active duty I am screwed in more ways then one.

Mac, the problem of PTSD is a widely used diagnosis and unfortunately the most abused. I am a retired vet of 21 years and now work as a civilian for the Army as a physical evaluation board liaison officer, (PEBLO), at Fort Knox Ky. and see this on a daily basis. Most soldiers who get stuck in the Warrior Transition Units,(WTU), deserver to be there and are truly injured due to their deployment to Iraq and Afghanistan, and then there are others who are there to get what they can get out of the government for injuries they do not have but fake very well. Unfortunately PTSD, which has finally been recognized as a true injury, is one of these conditions that some soldiers have learned to fake just to try to get more money out of the government. It has become so abused, and so well, that the Army started requiring sworn statements to individual incidences that happened in combat proving the soldiers claims. In addition to this, contrary so some beliefs, the Army has indeed learned from Vietnam. However in that time era where soldiers were truly patriotic and fought for their country, their country ignored their mental injuries mainly due to ignorance. Now that the times have changed from a patriotic country to a country of "I and Me" the mentality of some soldiers has followed. Even though it has been recognized that mental injuries are a legitimate injury and the services are trying to treat true cases there are many, many cases where PTSD is faked just to get more money out of the system. One soldier will tell another soldier" say this to the doctor and you will get more money", and it is this attitude that has polluted the system and made it more difficult for those with true cases of mental injury to get what they deserve. So now the current train of thought is as follows: Temporary Disability Retired List is for soldier who has unstable conditions that require long term treatment and evaluation. Soldiers with the diagnoses of PTSD have been added to this list because the current thinking is that PTSD has the potential to fade, or get better, over time. So the soldier is taken away from the military way of life, away from the helicopters and planes flying overhead, away from the training areas and firing ranges and put into the civilian life in hopes "time will heal". In some cases it does and others it does not however during this time the soldier is being re-evaluated ever 6 to 8 to 12 months monitoring progress. This is the Army trying to take care of their own, which is much better than we treated our Vietnam for fathers who we locked away in mental institutions or left them to their own device to get over it. The reason PTSD has been added to this list and put you in the fix your in is because of you undeserving peers who has faked their PTSD condition into receiving money they do not deserve. That is where you should direct your frustration instead of the Army.

To all of you serving our country, my family salutes you. Take care of each other, watch each others back. We're fighting a bit of an internal war here so that when you get home hopefully the country will have fewer politicians and more genuine representatives. Our debt to you can never be repaid but we will try one day at a time. God bless you all.

@ Freight Train:

I appreciate the insight to the methods and logic used by the PEBLO medical staff and the overall piece about why they do the things that they do. I can only speak of my own personal experience and leave it at that. Here is an example of what I am talking about.

In April 2004 I was moving equipment off of a LMTV on Camp Victory, Baghdad-Iraq. Seven Iraqi 82mm mortar shells slammed right beside me and the vehicle I was standing on. The blast sent me head over and I slammed flat on my back on the concrete. Dazed and confused I had a terrible headache, back ache, and bruised. I was sent to the on site TMC and checked out. I had a significant bruise but since no bleeding, entry wound, or severe concussion I was sent back to full duty status. I have the original paperwork still.

January 2005: I began to notice that I had a serious loss of hearing in the left ear. Did the proper military method of getting it checked out, waiting for a referral for a specialist, and then getting an assessment. I had a tumor on the 6th/7th nerve ending near the brain stem by the spinal cord and brain pushing against the left side of the brain. I had been having headaches since my first tour back in 2003. I was sent to MCG (Medical College of Georgia) here in Augusta, GA. I was stationed at FT Gordon.

June 2005: 12 hour brain surgery. 90 days of recovery to walk again and complete loss of hearing in the left ear since the operation required a more direct route to get to the tumor. Lucky for me it was not cancer. But now I had serious migraines every other day.

November 2007: While lifting weapons for a firing range my lower back went out and I could not move. Opon further investigation it was shown that back in 2004 the mortar blast caused me to crack a piece of lower back (L5/7). A bone had been pushed near the nerves and I had lost all feeling of my left leg.

May 2008: The FT Gordon medical staff was filled and I was sent to the VA at Medical College of Georgia. Treated, bones fused together, loss feeling due to significant damage to siadtic nerve. Toes numb, leg drags, can't run, can't walk.

June 2008: Placed on the Physical Eval Board to see if I retained any worth for active duty.

November 2008: Received a statement from the medical retention board at FT Sam Houston that I only rated a "temporary disability rating" of 30%.

-Loss of hearing in left ear (deemed acceptable due to Army regulations saying that a Soldier can retain active duty status with 50% hearing)

-migraines (deemed acceptable due to on-going treatment but rated a 0%. Even though my Company Commander, Section Leader, Battalion Commander, had written sworn statements that I was indeed suffering and the headaches were severe)

-PTSD (not deemed as suffering from PTSD)

-Loss of equlibrium due to brain surgery (deemed acceptable)

I was rated 20% for lower back injury and 10% for nerve damage to the left leg. Placed on the "turtle" for up to 5 years pending review to maintain military retirement status?

So if I go to some doctor and he says, "okay now two of your left toes somewhat move, I am going to now place you at a 5% rating for this disability." Then I go from 30% to 25% and the US Army revokes all retirement status? Even though I can't sit in a chair for prolonged time, headaches so bad that they are now injecting Botox to kill the pain, can't lift anything, and a list of issues. I think that there are a lot of Soldiers who may have "fake the funk" to obtain a higher rating or improve their chances for additional cash. But I was not that case and I even had a memo requesting from another officer if I rated a Purple Heart due to the serious back injury suffered in a combat zone due to indirect enemy fire. It was denied and the request was destroyed?

I know that there are a number of joes who deserve more but the system is not based on each individual it seems more like a general lump sum approach.

I feel for you. Stay on top of this and do not let go.

On the other side of the coin is this. I was sitting at the clinic on Ft Useless to get my knee looked at(annually). An 18 year old private sat down with 3 medical folders. The total amount of paperwork was at least 4 inches thick. I'm 48 and don't have 20 pages in mine. I asked him how long he'd been in the Army..."6 months". He was at Eustis for AIT. I asked him what was wrong with him that he needed that much paperwork. He told me he'd been told to go to sick-call for anything and everything from the moment he went to Basic. He was complaining because the Army wouldn't give him his medical discharge, and the disability compensation he believed he earned. He was being tossed out on an Administrative(good of the service) Discharge for being a non-hacker.

As I said, stay on top of your own case. You didn't say if you're still in, but if you are, take it up the chain. If not, go to the VA Hospital and get rolling on this.

Good luck.

I can tell you that the evaluation board system is an injury based system, not an Individual person based. For instance your back woud be rated in direct relationship to your range of motion of the affected area. However without having your case file to review I cannot tell you why you recieved the rating that you did.

@ Freight Train:

Trust me, I am not upset at you or questioning your professional role in the military medical field of the house. I guess I was a little disappointed at the outcome of my personal disability case when it came to the military and the fact that for the next few years I have to justify and fight to maintain my retirement status when I witnessed several AIT Soldiers get out-processed with say a "shoulder injury" and never have to look back? I have my final assessment from the medical board as well as the notes from the assigned JAG officer who basically said, "you get what you get and you are not going to get much more no matter how much you complain." As a retired SFC with 12 years active and another 7 in reserve it was a shock at the final assessment. My range of motion is limited as well as the total lack of nerve response say at the lower end of my leg and foot. The VA doctor did a really poor job on my back as well as insulted me and had the worst bedside manner I have ever endured which is another whole story.

Mac.. what WTU are you assigned to? Do you know? (I have friends in low places... Ft Bragg and Ft Sam, specifically) I can't promise anything, but I can promise that they will keep an eye out for you and make sure that if nothing else, you will shepherded through the system with dignity. Which is the least that you deserve.

Thing is... and this is important... you have to do your part (and I know that you know this... but I'm going to repeat it, anyway, so ignore the mouthy bitch, I should have been a DI, according to my husband) make sure that you go to ALL of your appointments, no matter HOW you feel. Document, document, document. Make copies of everything. Be as honest as you can with these people. You are in the fight of your life. The case managers are there to help you. Not to @!$%# you over. Honest.

Y'all rock. Thank you. For everything.

@ Brite:

I was stationed at FT Gordon for my last duty station. I was suppose to go to the WTU on post but orders were cut and signed by the former Brigade Commander that basically said, I would be more useful serving in my leadership role while I was awaiting the outcome from the medical board then in the WTU. Granted I was given ample time to make all appointments and trust me, I made about 10 seperate copies of all my military and dental records. I was given an honorable discharge and placed on the now infamous "temporary retired disabled list". In the WTU most people call it the "turtle list". Like I was discussing with frieght train, I have accepted that my disabilities no longer find me fit say for combat duty or to maintain on active duty, but the turtle list places an individual on a temporary retired status. Once your yearly reviews come up for however long the government may think they need to reassess your medical abilities, you are basically on borrowed time. I was placed on the Army records as 30% medically disabled due to lower back surgery mishaps that caused additional problems and residual nerve damage to the left leg and foot. 30% disabled places you on a medically retired status from active duty. This is not the same say what the VA may rate a person. This is basically the same as if you did your 20 and have the same benefits (health insurance, dental, PX, retirement pay, etc). During your reassessment, if you say improve to a certain leve where the damage may be viewed as "getting better" and the percentage becomes less then an overall 30% (say you are better and now placed at 25% disabled), then you lose everything. No insurance, no retirement pay, etc. You are bascially "kicked off" of retirement and yet most likely unable to return to active duty if your limitations prevent the basic soldiering ability (fire a weapon, wear a gas mask [pro mask], dig a fighting position, wear protective gear, etc).

I have been "temporary" retired for about 1 year and my medical reassessment is coming up. It is nerve racking because taking all the retirement benefits away would cause some issues. If I was 100% fit and ready for overseas duty, then i would have no issue returning back to active duty. But I am unable to run, walk at a fast pace, wear heavy equipment like a pack, headgear, or body armor. So I can't go back to full duty status but I could lose my retirement status? It just seems like the system is working against you then for you. That is my personal assessment. I understand that there have been former service members who may have "worked" the system and indeed may be living the good life with no real medical issues and still have all the benefits without doing their long haul required time. I have seen such cases and it ticked me off to no end. I am sure that there are plenty of people say who received a 100% disabled rating from the Veterans Administration and claimed everything under the sun and yet they are the ones heading to the beach on a jet ski with no serious complications. People get over the system like people abuse social services, food stamps, whatever, but there are many more cases of real service personnel who are suffering and who lost their retirement status but still have significant issues.

You should have been a Drill Instructor, you have the "get to it" attitude. I thank you for your concern and I do appreciate it. Many thanks.

I would be intrested in seeing you DA 199. I would like to see what the PEB rated you at and for what. Also did you take your case to the JAG office prior to signing your DA199 and marking your election?

@ Freight Train:

I will pull the DA 199 form and let you know. As to regards to the JAG office. I did not agree with the findings and sent two formal papers for a review. The JAG Officer assigned to my case at FT Sam Houston said that the 2nd deny to change the findings was pretty much it and that if I wanted to keep what I received so far that I better "play ball" and just sign the statement.

Mac... let me do some research on the PEB's... (I have my own "in house staff" LOL My husband works for the WTU as a case manager... I KNEW the Major would come in handy for SOMETHING!) Once I get a handle on those, I may be able to steer you to the best actions. In the mean time, get in touch with the VFW and AMVETS to help start the process through the VA. You can't start processing through the VA system until you have the DD214 in hand, but, if you have everything prepared, then nothing comes as a suprise. Personally... I HATE suprises. Especially when it comes to health care.

JAG is WRONG! Let me talk to the Major... See what he says. Something isn't right here.

@ Brite:

I have received notice from the VA on my disability rating per their own assessment. Trust me, I have so many copies of my DD214 I could have several book loads of military records at my house just for some of those "surprises". As far as the JAG Officer goes, I am sure he had several other cases and I was just one of many that were still pending. While I don't have any issue towards the person, I signed the agreement for retirement based on my own physical performance and the inabilities to maintain on active duty. Since I couldn't wear body armor, headgear, heavy equipment, run, walk fast, dig a fighting position...etc I had to do a "gut check" and determine if I could continue as a Senior Non-Commissioned Officer. So I signed the agreement to leave the service due to medical disabilities. No need to call out the cav' scouts...lol. I am hopeful when I go to the medical assessment process for re-evaluation for maintaining my military retirement, they will see that I am still "jacked up".

Mac... here at BAMC they are using WTU NCOs as cadre... to ride herd on the idiots that need riding. It may be something you can do, if you want to stay in, or while you are going through your MEB/PEB. I don't know if ALL WTUs are doing it. I know that BAMC is.

I know that I get very passionate about this. I hate to see good soldiers screwed out of their benefits, because it's expedient. Between that and all the contractors... and I am ALL set with "today's Military"... This isn't the military I grew up with, the one that I joined, the one that I married into. But it's the one that I cope with.

@ Brite:

They are doing the same here at FT Gordon. What they found out is that with the WTU also becoming a dumping ground for also AIT Soldiers getting out of the service on various medical claims, that they needed NCOs to ensure people were where they were suppose to be and have a little order around the group. I was earmarked to fill in that position but my former unit commander decided against it and did not move me over to the WTU and change my UIC assigned code. I was holding a billet as a SNCO in the Brigade S3 section. So I was "needed" much more then allowing me to shift to the WTU while I was going through my med-board procedures. I was allowed to go to any and all appointments but I still had to do my normal duty schedule and any other requirements. They needed all the E7s with experience in the S3 shop so I didn't go to the WTU.

So I was placed on the temporary retired list, out-processed, issued a new ID card for retired personnel, and that was a year ago. So unless I had a full recovery from the list of issues I doubt I would be much good to instructing and maintaining discipline among the younger joes out there. So my concern really is losing my retirement status if the re-evaluation goes bad. But I completely understand what you are saying and like I said, I thank you for ensuring that our voices get heard.

...And they wonder why they have such a problem with suicides in the military...

Bonnie.....so right....why should so few risk everything over and over so the rest can lounge and go about their lives as if nothing has changed. War should automatically trigger a random draft, our moto should be, "share the benifits, share the pain"

So True....

I agree...

And when the coffins of the forcefully conscripted youths start arriving back in the States, the general population starts a campaign like the Vietnam era to stop the war. I agree, drafting is the best way to make the general american public care about what your army does.

The only problem with the draft, is that those at the bottom of the economic ladder do all the fighting/dying while those at the top (like Dick Cheney ect.) find ways to get out of it.

,,bodo...The all volunteer army are mostly those at the bottom of the economic ladder born without the silver spoon, close the draft loopholes and make non-compliance a forfieture of citizenship.....One who is not willing to defend the liberty and rights they so openly flaunt, do not deserve such luxuries

Bonnie.....so right....why should so few risk everything over and over so the rest can lounge and go about their lives as if nothing has changed. War should automatically trigger a random draft, our moto should be, "share the benifits, share the pain"

Nothing they do there benefits anyone here. This is the reason why nobody here cares anymore. The ones who say they care, care least of all. They are the ones who say what they do there matters and would have them stay there forever! Those are the ones who never want our soldiers to leave! Ever in this bush created, purposely designed endless war!

As I was posting here last time, a very annoying virus software was loaded onto my computer I can't get rid of by the name of "anti viris pro." It keeps loading annoying pop ups for Viagra and porno sites which are all bogus. But each time they load, it interrupts whatever I am doing and queries me if I want to be protected and if so they will do it for a price. I will have to get one of those anti virus softwares to fight this. Basically, what they will do, I assume is stop bombarding my computer with their self generated annoying phoney pop up ads. It's like the old protection racket. Anybody familiar with this? It happened as I was here on the MSNBC message board.

Today the Dutch said they are pulling out, the first NATO country to do it. Others have pulled out before though not in NATO. Japan was one that did and said they would stay and as a sweetner offered to send more troops if the bush Administration would agree to a full no holds barred investigation into the details of 911. The bush Administration refused to do that so the Japanese pulled out. All countries that are helping us in Afghanistan should do what the Japanese did. If this country is unwilling to prove the people they say attacked us are the people who attacked us, then other countries should tell us to fight our own war.

radar -

It happened to me when I bought my Dell computer. There was a "trial" period that was free and after that you were supposed to have the option to buy it. I kept clicking on the "no" button but the P-Cillian anti-virus crap would pop up every three to four seconds.

It got so bad, I couldn't work on my computer. I have a friend who is computer-savvy who said he could get rid of it. I told him I had uninstalled it several times but it wouldn't go away.

It took him four hours to go through everything in my computer to track it down and get rid of it. It had embedded itself into everything. Every time I clicked "no", it embedded itself deeper in my system, and every time it popped up, it said I had over 100 viruses in my computer.

Protection racket.....legalized.

I know this is about as unrealistic as shutting down the drug trade, but wouldn't it be far simpler to just stop wanting to kill one another over ideologies in the first place?

I mean, I know it will never happen, but should we stop saying it?

Thanks for the info Screaminmimi. I bring this up to warn others. I don't know if they are stalking this particular message board or where they stalk. Maybe it is someone that doesn't like what I have to say. Thanks for that advice on not hitting the no button they got. I always hit it to move it along, but I am only embedding it deeper. Very clever of them! Somebody should go to jail for infecting computers with this stuff! Thanks for the info!

It is a virus that's been floating around for a while. Infected my computer in the spring. Wish I could tell you how a family member fixed it. Did not involve buying any new antivirus software.

There will never again be a draft. And there will never again be rationing or war taxes or war bonds to support war efforts. All future wars will be fought on credit by mostly rural unemployed young men and women. America wants war to be absolutely pain-free at home.

I do believe in compulsory national service (a draft) for both men and women. I think that two years would be about right. But this could take the form of a choice of service from military to being a teaching aid to being a forest firefighter to being a nursing assistant in a nursing home to many other forms of community service.

Most people believe that the military teaches discipline to young people and favor the draft for that reason. But the real advantage of the military is that they have no time for discipline. What they teach is self-discipline, perhaps the most important "adult" lesson a young person can learn.

Bonnie-404230 I agree with you. If this war isn't ended in a few years, then a draft will be the only real way to replace our soldiers stretched thin in numbers and burnt-out by this war. War is Hell. The stress has become so great that suicides in the military are at an all-time high. The budget in this recession doesn't allow for more appropriate help to go to them.

Right-wing congressmen are on this big tear to vote against anything that might sound like health care, including mental health care. If it costs money or it helps someone that's not in their party, odds are, they're against it.

Either end this war, pull them out, and send them home. Or, if this war is to continue, reinstate the draft. But this time, draft up the chicken hawks, the corporate suits, and the wealthy. America's poor, working class and minorities are disproportionately represented in this war that Bush and Cheney started up.

I recall a right-wing blogger once posted this up a few years ago and I remember it because his statement was so extreme: "Helping people is what liberals do. This nation cant afford bleeding heart libs no more, they can go to hell." (Well, 'War is Hell'). Another wingnut wrote, "latinos make me sick they should leave this country and go kill themselves." And the Tea Party that the GOP is courting, seems to despise the poor in this country. Considering who's serving, fighting and dying for our country in this war, guess those right-wing bloggers sitting all safe and comfy at home, got their wish.

Just out of curiosity, of the people on here calling for a draft, how many of you have actually served in the military... and in combat?

and Radar015... try Malwarebytes. It is free and works pretty well.

I am a Vietnam vet ('67-68 --- including the Tet Offensive) and served in the military for ten years. See my post 2.14 for my reasons. I believe in a draft for all Americans (including women) with a choice of mode of service.

I think the draft may be a worthwhile thing to reconsider, for many of the same reasons already brought up - too many are removed from what the military does, and it has become somewhat of a warrior caste within our society. Less than one percent of all Americans serve on active duty in any military service at a given time. That said, were the military to reintroduce the draft, we would have to reconsider its structure, since it is geared toward an all-volunteer force. For much the same reasons (training and equipping costs, retention, etc.), moving back to a draft force would be expensive, at least initially. Then we would also have to consider the social impacts of including those in the ranks who did not desire to serve, since the threat of administrative separation for such individuals as a form of corrective action would be all but moot.

Just out of curiosity, of the people on here calling for a draft, how many of you have actually served in the military... and in combat?

Have served for over 20 years and am a combat veteran (Mosul, Iraq), and have been back there since.

Bonnie-404230,

Oh so f**king true my men and women have been screaming to start the Selective Service again (ALL US Citizens, no exceptions). It is someone else's turn. As reflected in the April 2009 Defense Budget Cuts of the USAF and USN, this means "Drafted" into US Military Ground Combat Units, no more "cush" jobs.

What this article briefly mentions for a split second is the primary cause of the High Rate of Suicides, Depression, etc. as most of us already know (first hand experience), from the article:

and when he arrived home his wife said she was leaving. He almost killed himself that night.

Fort Carson came under scrutiny after a string of murders by returned soldiers.

Most of us are divorced after years of consecutive tours. With the US Courts leaving us broke like a joke after awarding everything to the spouses. This is after the spouse (male or female) has run off with Jodie (male or female), emptied the bank account, sold the house, moved everything out of State, maxed the credit cards (ruining our credit), etc.. The US Courts have made this really profitable for Lawyers by completely disregarding the US Servicemembers Civil Relief Act. With many States completely ignoring what the spouses are doing is a criminal act.

The second largest cause is the changing of child custody arrangements that are already in place prior to deployment. Like awarding child custody to the non servicemember alcoholic parent (failed Rehab). This happened to one of my O-5s, the O-5 has spent hundreds of thousands of dollars fighting this case in State Family Court while the State Family Court considers this as a "separate and unrelated" case from the ex's filing for divorce (that everything was awarded to the spouse, including the US Military Uniforms left Stateside.). The O-5 like the rest of us received our Divorce Hearing Papers (Dates to Appear) while deployed (typical cheap Lawyer trick) and as a double whammy Child Custody Papers, making this a win for the Courts (quick case off the books), win for the spouse (automatic win), win for the spouse's lawyer (percentage of the winnings plus fees up front), automatic loss for the US Military Servicemember (including possible UCMJ actions for being in debt).

Third, cause, Servicemembers receiving the "Dear John" or "Dear Jane" letters.

Note: You get rid of the profit for the non servicemembers, lawyers, courts, and most of this crap will stop.

And before some idiot says "not issued as spouse", if you have a penis or vagina, guess what. As the UCMJ still has on the books "Adultery", "Fornecation", etc..

radar015 - Nothing they do there benefits anyone here.

Good you volunteer and come get your lithium for your new Michigan Electric Car Battery Plant.

radar015, you were already told why everyone wants to pull out of here, AND IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH BUSH. It is because of UN Conventional Rules of Warfare during an Asymmetric War. And the Japanese Defense Force, cannot do anything here without weapons (that is how their "Combat Engineers" deployed to Iraq, as demanded by their "peace advocates" at Japan).

radar015. The least complex way to fix your computer is to, save your files (minus anything infected) to an external hard drive, wipe your internal computer hard drive (complete reformat), and reinstall your operating system (from disk not restore ("recovery") partition). As what you are talking about is in your Registery. With your computer possibly being a zombie or bot. This is what most Computer Repair Techs would do (if you are wondering how I know, most of us hold menial jobs when we return stateside, as most employers will not hire you if they know there is a chance of recall or being deployed this is irregardless of the Laws or Qualifications, Certifications, Post Graduate Degrees.).

UNA_Lion, the only "warrior" caste are those forces willing to sacrifice everything in your name (without recognition). This does not include the US Military Conventional Warfare Forces until they train up to Asymmetric Warfare (not going to happen). In the USAF that would only be the USAF Combat Air Controllers, Para Rescue Jumpers, Special Air Operations Wings, in the USN that would be the USN SEALs, in the USMC that would be the USMC MARSOC, in the USA (Army) that would be the US Army Special Forces (trained up from Rangers). This is the 3% of US Military.

UNA_Lion, the only "warrior" caste are those forces willing to sacrifice everything in your name (without recognition). This does not include the US Military Conventional Warfare Forces until they train up to Asymmetric Warfare (not going to happen). In the USAF that would only be the USAF Combat Air Controllers, Para Rescue Jumpers, Special Air Operations Wings, in the USN that would be the USN SEALs, in the USMC that would be the USMC MARSOC, in the USA (Army) that would be the US Army Special Forces (trained up from Rangers). This is the 3% of US Military.

I fear you may have misunderstood my point. By "warrior caste," I meant that multiple generations of the same family can now be found in military service, vice military service being spread throughout the population at random in the form of a draft. As to the examples you provided concerning warriors, understand your intent, though as a member of a MiTT, we served under a SF officer and conducted more asymmetrical warfare than I care to recall, which included being struck by multiple IEDs, SAF and a SVBIED. We also lived as a ten-man team within an Iraqi compound, under constant threat of outside (and inside) attack.

Slightly off-topic, but the missions and composition of SF and Ranger units are two completely separate animals, and they possess and conduct completely different mission sets. Too many think that SF draws directly from Ranger Battalions, but that is quite often not the case.

UNA_Lion,

to clarlify, we normally use US Army Ranger School as the first Assessment (before consideration to go to USA SF, USAF Special Operations, USMC MARSOC, USN SEALs). A percentage of volunteers are accepted from the Ranger "Bats" (usually 1st and 2nd). The majority of us were from the Rangers (this is how it was done "Old School"; now we get fresh off the street, immature, no experienced (no operational experience)).

So the 18X recruiting directly from the street is still in effect, eh?

As to the mission sets of SF, vice Rangers, they are (or should be) completely different. The SF LTC (now COL) under whom I served complained that SF had moved too far from their core mission of training, advising, and assisting indigenous forces and and moved too far into direct action missions.

About that draft thing... Have you taken a look at the modern American youth? They're shiftless, lazy, and wouldn't know morals or honor if they walked up and punched 'em in the face. The ones who volunteer are bad enough, but the ones who don't? Yeah. Thanks to the way they're softening up Basic Training, Drill Sergeant isn't allowed to train them to be decent soldiers anymore. I could only see the standards getting reduced if they were told they had to graduate even more people. If they instituted a draft, I'd get out of the military ASAP. I won't serve alongside draftees. I wouldn't be able to trust them.

I served in the early 70's, tail end of the draft. only time I was #1 in a lottery! American youth were called shiftless, lazy, and bunch of dopers but they made half decent soldiers after training. The all volunteer force appeals more to those lacking economic options and is less representative of the USA than draftees. I served with a college professor, a sports writer and an actuary, all draftees. The draft was stopped not to pursue higher quality recruits but to reduce the political blow-back from drafting sons to go to a war America didn't care much about. I'd like to see universal service (not all military). If you want to enjoy the benefits of a democracy you should be willing to pay the price. This should have nothing to do with Afghanistan and everything to do with the next war.

Bonnie,

My husband and I (both of us are veterans) discuss it often and think maybe it's time again for a draft.

As a Veteran who has never supported these Foreign Adventure/Boondoggle's, I wholeheartedly encourage you and your husband to shove your Draft up your Azzes!!

I served with a few draftees when I was younger and didn't notice much difference. I would like for there to be a civilian option for service though because I don't want to be downrange with anyone who doesn't want to be there (other than the fact that to an extent none of us want to be there!) !!

Those of you who want a draft can get on a plane to Iraq immediately or go @!$%# yourselves. Every swinging richard and polly over there signed up. I did 20 years ago and I accept the consequences good and bad, but I did it for me and not for a flag or a bunch of blood thisrty couch potato internet posters who want to enable this country to fight perepetual wars.

This country needs to disconnect its national identity from war and death, and do it fast.

cmcaltn72;

"As a Veteran who has never supported these Foreign Adventure/Boondoggle's, I wholeheartedly encourage you and your husband to shove your Draft up your Azzes!!

The way you speak makes me believe you, as a Veteran, were probably only in it for the Benefits, and would probably fit right in with the "I didn't sign up for this" theory of Military Service, all the while failing to uphold your promise to "Follow those appointed above me". This is the Enlistment oath that has been in effect since the WWII era, and hasn't changed a lot. So, "I wasn't in it for the Flag" of Virgo47 snd you only went for the benefits you neither wanted to fight for, if need be, just the Benefits.

You two are prime reasons we do need a draft, no deferments, no college out, no Marriage out, just everyone, EVERYONE, at 18 sign up for the number and then wait. School, Marriage, and deferments can wait, Religous reasons could be treated as they were in Vietnam, as Damn fine Medics. As for the cost, the only cost would be to re-open the Closed Bases such as Ft. Ord, CA and others that went by the wayside under the "De-Militarization" after Vietnam, to satisfy the Liberals. Each Soldier that goes to Military would be trained in a speciality, not necessarily the one they want, and kept for 2 years, then sent home to the reserves.
I also served with many Draftees, 1965-1977, and I found the cross-section of Americans that were in the Service, most didn't have a clue as to what the "Military" was all about before the Draft led them to it. They were from every ethnic and Raciail background, income status, education, etc, and we had very good units then. When the Military went "All-Vol", it was to appease the Liberals, because the Liberals wanted, and got, their free ride in our society with no cost to them, but they could still sit aside and ridicule those that still served, as goes on today. The Liberals arre the people that want this Nation to Fail, and the Republicans can pass laws to try to prevent it, but, the next election cycle, here they come again with those promises: No more War, No more guns for law abiding civilians( Thhis is the required move before the Nation is completely run down by the Government, which, by the way, is more Communist each day since Clinton/Gore raped our economy under NAFTA and GATT).

We do need a draft, it actually takes those" drug infested, lazy, drunken irresponsible" young people you are hearing about, and makes them understand what their Parents won't teach them: Respect for others, self-respect, discipline, and pride in their Nation and themselves. Yes, some won't make it, some will see War, some will die in stupid accidents, and some will come home with an entirely new outlook on themselves and Society as a whole. I Never saw a Draftee, growing up or on active duty, that came home and had a more sserious way about themselves, a real pride of accomplishment.
I also had a 23 year long Veteran on Active duty that had NEVER been to a Combat Zone, even though he was an Engineer, in Combat Engineer units, he just never got sent....

If yoou don't feel the need to Serve this Nation as a Part of your Rights as a Free American, please feel free to leave, so those of us with the Ball$ to step up can enjoy it without you bleeding it todeath, and giving nothing in return.

To refuse to Serve America, some way, puts you right up there with the Illegals flowing into Arizona, California, New Mexico, and Texas, "Want it all, but never ask me to pay for it, no siree, not me....

Ray,

Hey Bubba, spare me the Patriotic Spiel. A true Patriot refuses to wear the Blinder's, and questions his Government every step of the way. If you lack the Intelligence to understand the true reasons we are still in Iraq and Afghanistan, I would refer to that as a (Personal Problem). I served with the 82nd Airborne Division from 86' to 89'. Before you decide to pre-judge and insult someone like me, you might want to try and inject some Logic into your post you F'ing DOLT!!

Gunny Ray1033782

If yoou don't feel the need to Serve this Nation as a Part of your Rights as a Free American, please feel free to leave, so those of us with the Ball$ to step up can enjoy it without you bleeding it todeath, and giving nothing in return.

Typical bullethead "logic" - you can only serve your country by dying. Guess what @!$%#head I was born here and you don't have the right to tell me to leave. I served in combat for absolutely no benefit to "America" and maximum benefit to me (funny, they didn't say NO) and you have to @!$%#ing accept that, whether or not you agree with my reasons. Since then I have taken the money from the government, gotten 2 bachelor's degrees and "served America" as a teacher and in municipal water treatment - endeavors which are far more serving of America than shooting brown people in some other country for oil or Jeeezus.

So keep dreaming that America is the Klingon Empire and hating liberals. I hope you enjoy the ulcer and someday the " drug infested, lazy, drunken irresponsible" kids get off your lawn. I bet you still wear a high-and-tight.

Having spent the better part of their young lives conceiving, gestating, feeding, raising and educating morally, intellectually and spiritually a twenty some year old offspring which could all be ended by a lone AK-47 Bullet sending their young pride home in a body bag or in pieces left from an IED (improvised explosive device), Parents are very worried that their kids might get sucked up into this whole middle east mess and Don't KNOW What To Do????????

MOMS and DADS LISTEN UP!!! If your Son or Daughter or both have just returned from a Fun Stint at the local Army Recruiter's War Games Video Arcade, using the Latest virtual firepower equipped weapons which have them in awe and thoroughly infecting them with "War Fever" and wanting to SIGN UP -EEEEEEEKKKKKKKKKKKK!!!!!!!!! -Take it Easy Mom - Take It Easy Dad! - HERE IS WHAT YOU DO: CALMLY have Him or Her or Both sit down with you in front of your DeskTop or Laptop, whichever you have in your home, and then Go To GOOGLE and Type IN: "US Armed Forces Enlistment Contract" and Presto! Up pops the devil himself! It is Free and there for all to view and read. Now go over this contract making sure Your Kids are reading it with you. They will SOON see that the Army promises NOTHING unless an Excellent Trade and/or Professional training program IS LISTED and SIGNED to by the RECRUITER. If NO training program is listed the army can put your offspring into VERY Dangerous Parts of the world grunting around with a rifle for Year and a half long deployments of the 8 year sign-up, 4 Active and 4"Recalled Reserve" which is what these Young Men and Women are facing Now. This armed forces enlistment contract MUST be signed by anyone who Joins Up at which point they are indentured servants to the whims of the Army officers who themselves are the offspring of the wealhty elite or republican club cadre politicos. They consider your Son and/or Daughter property of the army and will do whatever they wish with them. Now Once you have gone over the Army "Contract" with your kids, you have done your job and responsibility for protecting them. If they still have The Fever and insist on "Joining The Core" Well, at Least you have made sure They KNOW What They Are Getting Themselves into. And THAT, Moms and Dads is ALL you can do to keep your kids Out Of Harms Way....

Good Luck!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Are you a recruiter? Have you served in recruiting command? I have, for the past 5 years, and have been serving my country for the past 19.

I make it a point to ensure both the applicant and parents understand fully what is about to happen. We make no bones about the war, and let the kids know they will be deployed. We don't romanticize the war, we don't glamorize the war, I show my own battle wounds.

I am proud to have served, and will continue as long as they let me. That doesn't make me a devil or a monster. I volunteered, just like everyone else in today's military. I don't allow my NCO's to lie to kids enlisting, I interview each one prior to joining, they know the deal. Some walk away, some don't.

The Army does not consider anyone "property" that is just an urban legend.

Feel free to google DD form 4, that is the enlistment contract, and all future Warriors and whomever else they chose, are briefed fully prior to enlisting. I can't speak for all recruiting stations, only mine.

-RangerONe~~Just want to thank you for trying to recruit my 17yr old out of High School. Had him all excited to join, when in fact, he had a catastrophic injury to his leg when he was 16 and didn't qualify to serve, because he couldn't WALK. Thanks for telling him "the army had ways around that", and trying to recruit him anyway. And, I am NOW patting myself on my back for steering him away from YOU, and he just started college....... This war needs to end, and recruiters in the High Schools needs to stop.......

I served two tours in Vietnam, and I also was a Basic Training Company commander for 18 months. In the latter, I heard many stories about recruiters, good and bad. I noted that it was almost always the doofus recruits who claimed they had been lied to. I'm with you, sir. This war is bad, and it will produce psychiatric casualties. The crap our government gets us into is not the fault of the recruiting command, which is trying to do a good job in a bad situation, as it has been since Abraham Lincoln was the commander-in-chief.

ah mr recruiter your contracts don't always say what they really mean mr. recruiter.the army lies through it's teeth. hell you should know that. how much of a commission do you get for each potential ah candidate.you'll recruit anything that walks talks or craps, at least that was the policy for awhile.now people are desparate for jobs so maybe you get a better selection on people, to sign your c ontracts..

time to end the bull$hit war mr. recruiter, and if your recruit these people at least you can recruit them for something a little more meaningful than a manufactured war and getting killed mr. recruiter.

I am going to try to remain civil through this. I am a retired Army soldier. I had numerous jobs in the army and a lot of training. But you, Mr. Recruiter, are a liar. Soldiers ARE property. They have many of their rights removed, i.e. freedom of speech. I have two kids who are soldiers and met with the recruiters. The recruiters LIED to my kids. I sat there and listened. That's the benefit of having a dad who spent time in some sh.tty job assignments because my recruiter LIED to me. I digress.

The Army is lead by idiots and when it comes to mental health issues, they are ignorant cave-dwellers. I have PTSD, actually at least three confirmed causes (cases). My last diagnosed PTSD case was a result of the sh...ty treatment I received when I had a recurrence of a childhood PTSD issue that I didn't even know about. When I went to counseling, I was an outcast. From my First Sgt to my Company Cmdr. These guys did a 180 on me. On a unit party, they sang my praises to my wife, but when I had this issue come up, they thought I was making it up. I even got a note from my MOTHER to verify my story.

The Army suicide rate is what it is because most of those knuckle-heads have zero compassion. They feel mental health issues are a sign of weakness. So if you have to go see someone, you're a pussy! (sorry). They ostracize you. They talk about you, they lie about you, they spread rumors, they RUIN YOUR CAREER! Soldiers still kill themselves because the Chain of Command is full of sh..! I have written to the Army at the highest rank to provide my insight (a senior NCO with more service stripes than my 1sgt). My letter was returned. No responses given.

This soldier is being kept there, not for his well-being, but because they are short of people. They are willing to put this guy on missions! WTF!?!

My kids went into the military with eyes open. I told them no lies. They both got good jobs, but even those good jobs can put a soldier in harm's way. My son returned from Afghanistan and my daughter may have to go. I have heard from both that the NCOs of their units suck! That is NOT encouraging. I know what I had to go through, and I warned them of the pitfalls. My daughter is not doing well because of superior idiots and those who treat her and other soldiers LIKE A PIECE OF PROPERTY!

My heart goes out to all the troops in that area. Obama lied. They are supposed to be coming home, not digging in! Troops who have seen their bodies blown to kingdom come are not best served by being put on antidepressants (which can take a month to titrate into the body), and put BACK in the field!

The other problem is with those treating them. If they are "company people," they will do whatever they can to keep those soldiers in action, rather than send them home. The idiot officers who believe they can be treated better by staying in the same threatening environment, is just that, an idiot.

My God, why is our government so stupid!?!

I am an Army Veteran and I am proud of the time I served, the training I received, and all the good Friends and times I had while I was in. Not everyone walks away with the same experiences that I did but it was the best thing that ever happened to me. I am forever grateful for the recruiter that helped introduce me to a way of life that I continue to cherish. One I value partially because I have spent time fighting for that way of life. For those of you, especially who posted negatively above who has not served a day in your life, you owe a debt of gratitude to every serving soldier even the recruiter. The recruiter, if he is honest which mine was, is the first person to introduce the potential soldier to a new exceptional way of life. The military is not for everyone but it will make men out of boys and Leaders out of the common man. This is more than I can say for most other institutions in society. I luckily did my time prior to 9-11 so I can't speak of soldiers experiences in the Arab theater, but I did spend two years in South Korea and the second of which I was deployed near the DMZ and was a deterrent to one crazy dictator's actions. I think that there are many liberals who talk bad about recruiters only because their offspring has a greater patriotic zeal than they do, and they choose to choose the path less taken. They choose to walk a different path one that their parents find distasteful. There are many that can not serve in the military due to personal handicaps and I applaud their desire, even if they lack the capacity, and solute their patriotism. I do believe in order to really appreciate the freedoms we share, each of us should serve for a period of time their fellow Americans according to their capacity. and I believe that a draft is a good start. Whether it be local, state, or federal service I believe this is necessary for our country to make it much further as a country. I think mandatory service would help future leaders of our country as every congressman and future president would be better able to make decisions that affect each of us.

Ranger1:
First rule is ; Don't try to BS the BSer!!! You as aRecruiter are REQUIRED to say and do what you do or your "Points" go down, and then, you have to go where you lied to these kids about. I, too, was a Recruiter, Unit Re-Up actually, and I never BSed a single Soldier, NOT about the School the could have, ( The SCHOOL ONLY, NOT THE JOB ), nor did I ever tell a Soldier that they were free. YES, I did tell every Soldier, First term to final term to Retire, "are you absolutely sure, after this last enlistment, that you really want ti sign for 2, 4, 6 more years. I had Soldiers E-6 and above and below, that when I asked the question do you really want this? Many actually left the Service, realizing I made them recall the Good and Bad times, the Soldiers I counselled, young and not so young, had an honest Career counselor, and I lasted 6 months because I would not lie to a single one, ever. YOU as a "Street Recuiter" take ignorant Moms, Dads, and Kids and run them down the Golden path, NEVER filling in the "Blanks". YOU Mr. Recuiter, only care about the Recuiting Command Quota for the Particular area you work, you DO NOT care about the Recuits, only keeping your "Safe" job, all the while promising Pie in the Sky, and growing Cannon fodder.

Yes, you have a job to do, but you forgot ONE big thing: This and other threads are riddled with Veterans, and most of those Veterans will not let you hide behind a DD form 4, that form absolves you and your Commander of any wrong doing, because you are able to tell Civilians the "Blank spots are filled in later, by the Command, and don't have a bearing on your enlistment", something that is EXTREMELY Illegal in Civilian life.

Sleep well, Mr. Recruiter, I am sure some of your "Completely Informed Recruits" got just what you wanted, a hsrd to fill quota for a hard MOS, filled, along with the Damage and Bodies sent home from your Lies.

In this day in age, there is so much information, that if you can't try to look for answers, then your doomed by your self imposed ignorance. I KNEW what I was getting into when I signed my contract. Still know what I'm getting into, everytime I re-enlist. My recruiter didn't lie to me. Didn't need to give me a lot of information. I found it before I went to talk to him.

Is there bad recruiter, yes. Is RangerOne one of them, I don't know, and neither do any of you. So stop with all of your crap.

I'm with Army Pride on this one. I went into the military with my eyes wide open, no illusions. Both my parents were military, Dad, career Navy and Mom was Air Force. I had married into the Army, before I joined.

I lucked out. I had a good recruiter. I could have had any job in the military I wanted, and I chose the one that I wanted. I knew that once I got out, that I would serve the rest of those 8 years in the IRR and that I could be called back up, and in fact, I was, for Gulf I.

Recruiters scare you? As well they should. Do some research on your own. Talk to vets. Learn about the culture that you are thinking about joining.

Callous commanders answer to stress/depression/suicide is:

It's all in your head, so suck it up.

Good commanders get their troops help.

RangerONe-:

I was a recruiter also, and it's amazing how the "My recruiter lied to me" story gets blown out of proportion. To those of you that like that song so much consider this:

Your son/daughter has every item of every document explained to them not once but several times:

1. Recruiter

2 Station NCOIC

3. MEPS counselor (1st time during enlistment)

4. MEPS counselor (2nd time before shipping out)

5. Upon arrival at basic training (During moment of Truth), where investigators review paper work again. (I sat through one at MCRD San Diego Marine Corps recruiters course)

Your sons and daughters have that chance again to speak up BEFORE training starts, and then again at:

6. Formal MOS School

7. Upon Arrival at unit

But guess what? they start whining after Mom and Dad tell them how much they are missed at home, after their girlfriend/boyfriend tells them they are leaving, or their friends tell them they miss them. Then guess what happens next? they are right back in a recruiting office trying to get back into the military, after they fail that first semester of college, or that girlfriend/boyfriend leaves them anyway, and especially after Mom and Dad tell them that it's time they got out on their own. College recruiters lie by far more than Military recruiters do. Need proof:

Do they tell the potential applicant about the chances that their hard earned credits may not transfer to the school they want to go to (Grad school)? NO

That a large number of first year students drop college before the first semester ends? NO

About the crime rate both on/off campus? NO

About the actual cost of their education? NO

That a degree is NOT a guarantee to a sucessful career? NO

That the student will be damn near retired before paying back all of the loans? NO

That loans/grants AREN'T a guarantee? NO

Because the bottom line for a college recruiter is getting warm bodies into seats period.

Army Pride hit the nail on the head. Whose fault is it if your recruiter lies to you? His. Whose fault is it if you believe his lies because you didn't bother doing the research? Yours.

Slinger-958418, I wonder where your boy got his moral fortitude. I'm pretty sure he didn't get any notions about service before self, about putting the ideals of liberty and justice for all before his own personal safety and wellbeing from you. What would you have done if he had enlisted? Would you have disowned him for serving in a war you didn't like? Would you have been one of those who claimed to support the troops but not the war, all the while voting into place politicians who promise to end the war by ending its funding? Would you have been one of those who continually undermined his morale by saying how evil this war is? Or would you, against my expectations, wholeheartedly supported him, the military, and the war against those who would rob you and others of their God-given, American-protected freedoms? You know what my parents did when I enlisted? Mind you, this was back in '07 when there was still shooting going on, so as best as most civilians knew we were being slaughtered over there. My mother was in tears. My father shook my hand. They'd never been prouder of me. They continued this support even through my deployment. When I wavered, they reminded me of what I was there for and the good I was doing for the American and Iraqi people. I'm glad your son didn't get in, for his sake. I wouldn't want you waiting for me when I came back from war.

It ain't fun having random folks attack your character over the 'Net, is it? Thought I'd show you a little taste of your own medicine.

RJ-779964, I agree with almost every point save one: We cannot quit Afghanistan. Victory is still possible, albeit increasingly unlikely thanks to the, ah, political climate in both the USA and Afghanistan, but we must defeat the jihadists there. If we cut and run yet another time, they'll increase in momentum. Don't forget, we're fighting them there so we don't have to fight them here.

Am I the only one whose recruiter didn't lie to him? He told me the Army would be rough, that I'd come away with injuries and wear-and-tear on my body far in advance of my years, and odds were pretty decent that I'd get wounded in combat if not killed outright. He warned me that we were at war. He laid out for me what jobs had good bonuses, and when the lady at MEPS tried to shoehorn me into a job I didn't want he pointed out to her that I hadn't signed any paperwork yet. I went artillery.

Guess what, folks? I'm still in the Army. I just recently re-enlisted. I got bad knees, a bad hip, a back that gets some gnarly muscle spasms every week or so from thrownig around hundred-pound shells, lungs tore up from breathing all kinds of fumes and smoke, and I look old enough that I don't get carded when I buy alcohol despite only being 22. I didn't join because I thought it would be easy. I didn't join because I wanted the GI Bill. I joined because we were attacked, and because millions of people live under tyranny and oppression. I joined because I realized they would only continue to attack us, and the only way to stop them would be to take the fight to them. They cannot be reasoned with. They cannot be bargained with. They can only be defeated by showing the undecided majority a better way of life. I grew up proud to be an American, and thankful that I live in this country. It's gone downhill, but it's still the best country on the planet. But you know what's funny? You don't hear or see Iraqis protesting against the American 'occupation'. You see Americans railing against our evil, mean troopers who're holding Iraq, but the Iraqis themselves regard us as heroes for coming halfway around the world to help sort out their mess. They'll be happy to see us go, of course, but they know far better than the average American the good we're doing for them. I don't pretend to know the future, but I do know that for right now, the Iraqis enjoy more freedom under us than they ever had under Saddam.

I've enlisted in two branches of service, in active and reserve status and yet somehow I've never been lied to by a recruiter!! As a veteran it may now be because of my prior service and that I'm not the smallest guy, but how does that explain the 6'1" 125 lb 18 (barely) year old kid who had to gain 5 lbs. (the minimum was 130) in Navy basic training (and I was probably around 115 after the first week after such events as an indoor rain shower on the second day. How can they make it rain when we're inside? We found out after an hour and a half of being smoked !!!) ?? While I don't think that means that all recruiters are honest I do believe there are far more good ones than bad.

I've seen PTSD in the field and down range and it's not a pretty site. There are some Soldiers who undoubtedly should be sent to the rear and I hope that happens , but there are also some who need to Soldier up and remember they're part of a team, and like a chain, a team is only as good as its' weakest link!!

Let me tell you my little story. Recruiters do lie. My dad did not provide me any of the information I provided my kids so I was left on my own. When I went in, there was no "internet." We got handed a packet full of propaganda of the wonders of the Army. There is nothing in this for me, so I have no reason to lie. I took my entrance exam to see what jobs I qualified for. Fortunately, I had pretty good scores and qualified for just about any job in the Army except for foreign language stuff. No surprise there. So the recruiter is telling me about these different jobs. Keep in mind, I'm an 18 y/o kid, with no money, no prospects, and a shi..ty family life. Anyway, I saw a job that sounded cool. It was called "Medical Specialist." Hmm. That sounded pretty interesting-and important. Tell me, Mr. Recruiter, about this Medical Specialist job. (This is ALL THE TRUTH). "Well, you work in a hospital. You have all these good looking nurses working with you. You learn medical procedures and so on." He then handed me a brochure with pictures of Ft. Sam, where I would do my training. I found out much later in life, that the pictures in the brochure were the SENIOR ENLISTED quarters, and NOT the barracks I would be living in. I realized I would be with a bunch of guys in basic, but wanted to know what to expect after that. I went home and told my parents I enlisted in the Army. I was 18 so I didn't need their permission. The most honest recruiter I found was a Marine. I walked into the Marine recruit station and told them I wanted to join the Marines. His words to me- "Why do you want to F..up your life?" I was 17 so I couldn't join without permission, so I had to wait.

On with the story. I finished basic, and true, it was hard being away from home. I finally got my orders to Ft Sam for AIT. After basic training, back in 1978, AIT was heaven! I loved the Army. The training was cool. Then one day they took us to the theater to show us what we really signed up for. Vietnam had just ended a year and a half prior. We got to see these videos of what our jobs would entail. I was not prepared for what I was about to watch. It was an hour video of war wounded from Vietnam, and telling us how we were expected to respond. No editing, full color. There were legs blown off, blood every where and a surgery where this doctor is pulling this bullet from out of the corner of some soldier's eye. I was sliding lower and lower into my seat, getting sicker and sicker. Mr. Recruiter NEVER said anything about any of this kind of stuff!

I found out that Medical Specialist was a fancy name for Combat Medic! I was a sick pup after that video.

Next came my first duty station. I could hardly wait to move into one of those cool houses that I saw in the brochure. My first assignment was Ft. Stewart, GA, 24th Inf Div. I was assigned to a field medical company. I didn't realize what that meant until later. I about sh..when they put me in my barracks. An open bay with about twenty guys in it. It was a WWII era barracks. The walls had giant holes in them. The restroom was unbelievable. The commodes sat right next to each other, with no seperation from you and your "buddy." We got to share all our most intimate moments. Disgusting is an understatement. WTF happened to those cool houses we were supposed to be moving into, Mr. Recruiter? We had roaches in the barracks so big I used to be able to shoot them with a BB gun. I couldn't believe it! The only time I got to see the inside of a hospital was during a 90 day rotation. Other than that I was in a friggin field unit, setting up tents, camoflage net, and a bunch of other SH... I DID NOT SIGN UP FOR!

I will leave it at that. Needless to say, for the next fourteen years, nearly every one of my assignments was with a field unit. Forget college, forget planning anything. I had to wait until I retired before I could finish my degree.

So, Mr. Recruiter, I call BS on you and all your buddies. You DON'T tell the truth. You tell enough to say that you told them, which is talking in circles. All the stuff read to soldiers in all these different locations at NO TIME tells them that they could wind up in some of the crappiest places on the face of the earth, and that it's too damn bad! All the documents say is that if necessary you will be assigned according to the needs of the Army. You no longer have a say-so. You no longer are even a say, period.

This all started over the false premise that troops are better treated by being kept in the hell they were in when they were blown to hell, or their friends were. Recruiters don't tell the kids walking in about all the crap they may have to deal with. They have a quota to make.

This nonsense over there has to stop. There is no justification for it, and keeping hurting soldiers there under the pretense that it's better for them, is just plain lying! Call a spade a spade. For all you got whatever your recruiter promised you, you were lucky, plain and simple. For those who were a little "mislead," I am truly sorry. END THIS CRAP AND BRING OUR TROOPS HOME!

thankyou for being honest

Recruiters do not lie. They tell you repeatedly that if it's not in writing, there is no guarantee. Most hear what they want to hear, and fail to read what they sign.

They hear "You may get..." and they hear "You will get...".

For all those that have called me a liar. I know none of you personally, and take exception to the fact that you will label and judge me.

You are welcome to visit one of my stations, and we can discuss anything you wish first hand. 2060 N. High St, Columbus Ohio, 43213.

We are open Monday through Friday, usually 0900hrs to 1630hrs.

I have no reason to lie to anyone, there are over 1 million service members. I find it hard to believe that all of us are ignorant and stupid, and fell for our recruitiers lies and deceptions. Many re-enlist and retire. Some folks have great tours, some don't. Not much different than any other job out there.

RJ, sir... maybe you didn't talk to the right people in your unit. You could have done correspondence courses. Or put in for a different MOS. I was a Combat Medic too. 91A was my first MOS, secondary was 71L - clerk/typist and tertiary was 35G - bio-med equipment repair.

But I'll tell you what. I was born into the military, I married into the military and I was AD. Frankly, civilians baffle me.

You Bet SOMETHING ELSE is in PLAY. Orders from Israel that WE AMERICANS are to be there and STAY there for that country's CONVENIENCE and SECURITY...........No matter what this Iraq/Afghan mess is doing to America and Our People.

This has been the treatment since the beginning of time. Treat the soldier as close to the front as possible. All of these problems were known many years ago and the repeated exposure (tours) is just making it worse. Question becomes How much can a person handle before damage is done?

Some soldiers will be able to perform all of their duties while on antidepressants while others will have problems. The CSM's comments and attitude does not make it better for his effected troops. It only makes them more isolated from everyone else and makes it harder for them to fit in.

Phantom Beast - Orders from Israel? Time to take off the foil helmut, dude.

To Steve-1090012 - No steve, I just took off the zionist blinders, like in The Motion Picture "They Live", where people put on special sunglasses to see who invaded and was REALLY in charge. People like YOU steve...

I'd actually like to see more data on this topic and less pre-formed opinions. The guy in the article reminds me a lot of GIs I knew that were trying to bail out, but the truth is I don't know enough to judge. I guess that many people would recover better in theater than being sent home as a failure. Soldiers don't generally fight for their country, they fight for their buddies. Keeping those who can recover with their units leads to less injury long term, I think. But I'm not including in this assessment the individual who has become psychotic or is in anyway a danger to his/her fellow troops. But if (metaphor here) you send home anyone who gets a severe sunburn you're going to (a) get a lot of naked people laying in the sun and (b) get a lot of resentment and morale lost by those who chose not to solar bake.

War is inhumane and unpleasant by design. Any normal human being will long to get out of the situation. (some will long to return). A good military cares for the needs troops without a need to be "nice" to individuals. That's not due to some soft liberal nature, it is how one maintains a strong force.

The guy in the article should stay in the US mopping floors for the remainder of his hitch. But many who can't sleep or who get depressed but still are part of their unit should stay with that unit if possible.

I am quite familiar with PTSD (way more than I want to be, I assure you), though not combat PTSD; and I can't imagine any possible way sending sufferers back to the situation where they were traumatized could help them. Desensitization therapy is used for PHOBIAS, not PTSD. Sending tramatized people back can only traumatize them more. They may not show it because they may start to shut down completely or dissociate! I'm not a psychologist, but I think it is even possible for someone in that state to suffer a psychotic break. Also, why can't they talk to people who understand who are not in theater? The article states they can't take all the meds available because of having to get up at night and because some have side effects of possibly increasing suicide risks. I know a side effect of ambien is that people sometimes perform actions while asleep that they don't remember in the morning, like eating, walking, even driving. People I know who have suffered this have needed a team to help them recover-ie, therapist, psychiatrist, sometimes hospital. It does not sound like that is available to these troups in theater. Also, this is NOT a matter of sucking it up or being tough! You cannot stop flashbacks no matter how tough you are! They don't know yet why some people react this way and some don't, but it is NOT a matter of weakness.

Incidentally, most of these are things I've witnessed or heard on drug commercials or learned in PTSD literature, not my opinions. Re the part about the psychotic break, I do know for sure that extremely depressed people can have psychotic breaks as part of the diagnosis.

Abreaction

By Nancy Schimelpfening, About.com Guide

Definition: An automatic, unconscious reaction that a person has in response to a stimulus which reminds the person of a situation they experienced before. As an example, consider a person who has been physically abused who responds to a raised hand by cringing even the though the other person's intent was to brush away a stray thread.

-from about.com:depression

This directly applies to PTSD, as sufferers can have abreactions (as I've seen) where they are triggered by a stimulus which may or may not be related to the traumatic event and immediately begin to "relive" the event, acting exactly as if they were still there (they later say they felt like they were back there.) You can see potential dangers of that in a war zone with weapons around, surely.

Redeployment...in a danger zone...should be the soldier's decision to make....otherwise...everyone should have their turn. That being said...Thank you to all the brave soldiers who serve our country. I appreciate YOU!

And just my two cent's worth on the Volunteer Army:

The original concept of the Volunteer Army was that it was to follow the cadre concept. In time of war, the Volunteer Army would become a nucleus force and would be spread out, a company here and a battalion there and a wing here and a squadron there among the draftee forces. That way every unit would have a "spine" of knowledgeable, experienced soldiers, sailors, or airmen or marines to "show the way" to the draftees.

In time of war, this would allow the Volunteer Army to be swelled by a factor of 4-10-fold to meet the needs of whatever force was encountered. But instead, the cadre became the largest standing army in the world. But only grew by a factor of about 2 times. The cadre concept was abandoned.

Now we still have the largest standing army in the world, but it has a maximum expansion of only about 20% of what was intended. And that 20% is not tired, suffering, and its equipment is in serious need of refurbishment and replacement. Only about 10% of our combat Army and Marine units are truly "combat ready." It is higher in the Air Force and Navy because their missions and structure of forces are different. The military likes to talk about a 40% combat-ready status, but this is done by factoring in the Air Force and Navy to get the number looking higher.

In the long run, the Volunteer Army is going to let us down because we have overused and abused it. And we have no cadre system or draft to fall back on. It would take 6 years to re-institute the draft and get the first trigger-puller online as a minimum. And that assumes that the money would be available, that public opinion would allow it, and that politicians would cooperate to see it in place.

Right on and is cheney still a beneficiary of halliburton? What a coincidence...

As long as Israel controls our governments, our slavery to the "chosen people" who have betrayed, disrespected God and crucified His Son, Letting the Romans do their DirtyWork, as they are known for down through time, Our America will continue to decline. They are Cleaning US out Socio/economically, Morally and Militarily.....They are Ruthless to serve their own profit.

I got EMDR therapy from the Veterans Administration. Even though it seems like vodoo, it helped me immediately. The good effect has lasted for years.

EMDR Therapy depends almost entirely on whether the patient believes it will help. One important thing to note is that research shows that it has almost equal placebo and nocebo effects. That is, the people who start it believing that it will not work fail at approximately the same rate as people who start it believing that it will work succeed. (I hope that made sense.)

But EMDR (and a number of other "standard" VA therapies all share one thing in common --- they are very inexpensive and represent protocols that can be used within the current VA hospital structure.

VA research supports it, but VA research is some of the sloppiest and most poorly designed, poorly conducted, and poorly evaluated around. VA research does not meet NIH standards.

I am a believer in what works for you, works for you. And I wish all the best to people who feel they are helped by such therapies. But when you start seeing it used as a treatment for everything from TMJ to premature ejaculation, to migraines, to bad divorces, to drug treatment and fear of heights, it is time to get suspicious.

The bottom line is that the placebo effect is measurable in around 30% of all treatments. This is approximately the success rate of EMDR.

And he has been out of office for nearly 2 years, yet our men and women still stand in harms way.Bush is gone, lay the blame where it belongs. Obama promised to end these wars, and hasn't.

When does it become his problem?

RangerONe - thank you for your service. I for one realize the many sacrifices made by our men and women who serve...most (the vast majority) without nary a word of what they must do and committed to. I also realize there is a cost to freedom and democracy which many here apparently don't see. As for the story, for every Sgt Riordan there are dozens of Spc Carter who, although also affected - go out courageously and do their job every day.

RangerONe- It becomes Obama's war when HE starts one. When he invades a country just because his daddy is disgraced by his war. Not until!

last i saw obama sent thousands of troops there. I gues we'll only hold him responsible for those

you've got the dem/lib talking points and theories right though

Larry.....if it is still Bush's war bring him back to finish the job.......never thought I would say this but at least I felt safer with Bush in the WH , Obama scares the he## out of me!

Ranger one- Keep up the good work! Tell the truth and let people make their own decision. As to the rest of these people who think they understand what it takes to be a service member and protect their country in war times and in peace, they could not fill half of one of your shoes. I had good recruiters in the early nineties and am proud of all that serve currently and in the past. This nation is a better place because of MEN like you. Stay safe and proud, you are appreciated.

CARV, Larry-1144526,

Afghanistan: 1980s Senator Charles Wilson, Democrat Texas. US Military Training Teams from Germany to Pakistan to train the Pro Western Afghan Muhajeen (not the same as the Iranian trained and equipped Taliban).

Iraq: 1980s US Military Training Teams from Germany during the Iran Iraq Wars.

Spoken like a true combat veteran. I'd like to know what you know about it.

Have you been to war, Robert? Has someone shot at you, tried to blow you up? It's very easy to be so brave and mocking when you're sitting behind your computer in your comfy chair, in your airconditioned apartment. If you were in the position of any of your soldiers you're calling wusses, you'd be screaming like a little girl.

well said Robert

Been there, done that Rick. I deployed several times in the Marines. I've tried to go twice with the Guard.

Yes I have Gia. I've been shot at(bullets sound like mosquitoes when they're close), stabbed, hit by shrapnel, and shelled by my own unit...TWICE. I've had a mortar hit my truck(dud) right on the hood. I have the injuries, and decorations to go along with it. My knee kept me from reenlisting with the Marines, but the Guard said I could go Aviation.

Screaming like a girl? Nope. In fact, I'm the guy who advised his troops if they have time to pray, they have time to shoot. Multitasking at it's simplest. How about you Gia? When I am done, I'll have 30 years in. How about YOU?!

I call them wussies because they are. More vets claim PTSD from this war than all others combined. The VA just made it even easier. Instead of having to actually be involved in combat(PTSD is what was called battle fatigue), all anyone has to do now is be in the same country. That means the troops "in the rear with the gear" can suck up at the compensation trough the same as someone who has actually done something dangerous.

Get ready for the absolute total bankrupting of the VA system.

Man up? Wussified? What a crock. Your going to tell me a person isn't a "man" because he doesn't want to take a bullet in thew head or be taken hostage and have his corpse hung from a bridge? How much good are all those decorations going to do you when you're dead. How are you going to explain to a parent what their son died for in Iraq, what is the real reason for that. Yes I'm sure alot of the claims are BS, but sorting that out isn't related to what people are going through over there. And yes the ww2 vets were the greates. You will never understand what they went through.

Sabrerattler- you have got to be kidding. How dare you. enough said.

here's a little info for the ignorant...PTSD is a NEW thing, it wasn't even a term in the other wars...so the current wars WOULD HAVE MORE PTSD cases...DUHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!

cball- you think? Maybe that is why he referred to Battle fatigue as what they used to call it. And it has been around more than ten years as PTSD- My father was diagnosed with it in late nineties from his tour in Vietman. It is real and does affect families but most of that generation would not admit that they had a problem. Maybe you should pay a little more attention, Oh i forgot they dont teach discipline and attention to detail in society anymore you have to go to the military for that.

It remains a sad fact of human existence that some people find life meaningless without war. That's the tragic secret here.

Bless you brother, you are so right. You have my good wishes. Hang in there and be happy.

I can only imagine what it is like...but agree and respect your comment.

blastmaster,

Thank you for your service to our country! I would suggest you stop by The American Legion post near where you live. Speak to the Service Officer. We have been there, done that, got the t-shirt, and we are there to help you! We have programs designed for returning warriors, you don't have to join, but we would be glad to have you! I know, you probably think it's the old folks place, but sooner or later, your generation will be taking over. We believe in a strong national defense, just treatment of our warriors, service to community, state, and nation, as a matter of fact, most of us consider we are still serving, that oath is a lifetime commitment, and we believe in mutual helpfulness. And we are the worlds largest veterans service organization.

Still serving,

For God and Country,

Andy

OOPS, I meant Masterblaster

You are so right. I can only hang my head for my USA.

Sorry to inform you but the people who planned this war are over there, not here and they've been attacking us for OVER 4 decades!! It took a larger body count than Pearl Harbor to wake us up (or the fact it was New York City that got attacked BY jetliners instead of jetliners being attacked overseas !!)!!

Rest assured no matter what we do,this war will continue and at some point we may get enough of a consensus from Russia (who have their own problems with Jihadists) and China (whose problems are minor compared to the rest of us, but they still have some) to make a true global effort against the JIHADISTS .

right...let's play nice

Rick:

I agree. We owe it to our troops to have no more quagmires. Afghanistan is another quagmire. Inorder for our efforts to be effective there, we need a national government with credibility. Karzai is as corrupt as Thiu in South Vietnam.

We are having an epidemic of suicides, psychiatric disorders, substance abuse, lost homes and marriages and homeless vets.

There is a real way to support them besides putting the yellow ribbon on the back of your van. Write your congressman or representative if you really want to support your soldiers. There are programs out there devoted to service members and families dealing with PTSD and a million other problems these people are having before, during, and after war. Write your congressman asking them to support these programs. The more people know whats going on, the more help and assistance these service members and families will get.

Scottie12

Sadly I live in California, not many political people or people in gerneal actually here who support soldiers or veterans. Any practical way one person can help? Personally since it is the military who is handing out the drugs...I'd rather support, contribute or volunter with someone who has a real solution or at least positive help & support. I guess there is no solution.

sweetpea,

You can volunteer at your nearest Veterans Administration Medical Center. The VA is always looking for good volunteers, and can place them according to the volunteers interest and skills. The contact person is the Volunteer Coordinator, a visit to the 'Help' or 'Information' desk at any VAMC facility can get you started with the process.

I am astonished that with what has been going on with the same Military units going back for deployment after deployment that the draft has not been reinstated.

I know that it would be so unpopular, but you can't have it both ways-living in this free country but not participating in the future of it if it inconveniances you. Like the people who scream that their right are being taken away by body screenings at the airport, but they are the first to scream when their plane is hijacked. CAN'T HAVE IT BOTH WAYS!!!

Counseling? Good Grief. These guys need to man-up. No other war in our history involved so many crybabies.

This war is nothing in comparison to ANY of our previous forays. Nine years, and about 5000 KIA's. That averages out to about 1.5 per day. More are killed every day/year in training accidents, illness, and plain stupidity than from hostile fire incidents.

This country needs more "Leaders", and fewer "Counselors".

Amen Robert

Hey Robert, it is the very same A***oles like you that end up as commanders and cause people to snap in the Army. People had it tougher in yester year, so what? Parents also disciplined their children back then and there were winners and losers back then to. Nowadays everyone has to win and kids get put in "time-out". How about you unplug your electricity from your house and go work a field in the hot sun "like they used to" and see how long you last you moron.

Hey wlogg...you just made my point. You just admitted the generation of today is a bunch of babies. Thank you.

I don't have to turn off my electricity. I do work in the hot sun. I don't sit at a desk. I don't even have a desk where I work. Never have.

Friggin Chicken Hawk.

2BCT 1AD OIF 05-06 OIF 08-09

Hey Fred, I'll compare my service in the Marines against anything you put up. Half my Boot Camp platoon blew up in Beirut. I got out of the Marines after Desert Storm. I'll have 30 years when I retire.

You?

I joined back up at 43 years old after a 15+ year break in service. Still rehabbing from my last deployment but I should get the all clear this month.

I've seen both sides of this debate. My CO snapped as soon as we got in Kuwait (he lost several of his men on the previous deployment and was a little keyed up about returning to the theater) and had to be sent back to the rear after assaulting a CWO2 who didn't know when to zip it in Iraq.

I've also seen those who need to Soldier up and drive on. But trying to say it's the whole generation doesn't fly. I don't see a lot of difference in how most of them act and how we acted when I was their age. Quite a few of the soldiers I served with and trained waived their dwell time to deploy with their new units. That hardly seems like a generation of babies to me.

Thank you for your service and dedication.

Same to you.

You say you reenlisted at 43 after 15 years out. I have news for you. So did a whole bunch of guys. The Military was calling and requesting their service again.

Even the US Military knows what's what. You and I originally joined for something other than a free college education. The majority of these kids today didn't. "I didn't sign up for this" is a recurring theme.

The Army and Marines even called back retirees. They work, but don't have to go to the rifle range or take PFT's. Pretty sweet deal for them.

It really is a generational thing. Look at WW2. EVERYONE wanted to be part of the fight. Korea? Not so much, but those in the military went in fully knowing what was expected. Vietnam, again...not so much. The people at home were on board, but the military had doubts. By the end, everyone was against it. Desert Storm brought everyone back on board again. And now this. The people are tired of it, the troops are not allowed to do what's required to win, and management is clueless.

I'll first start off by saying 30 years of service is awesome regardless of the branch, but as a Marine myself I give you extra congratulations.
However, your comments do a disservice to all your younger brothers and sisters who took up the call and deployed, something 98% of Americans do not do, and came back with problems and complaints. News flash, not everyone is the same it does not make them weak. A good leader and especially a good Marine recognizes this and builds those people up so they hopefully won't break down.
Everyone has a cracking point and multiple deployments in a short time frame can damage even the best people. I won't discount the sacrifices and tragedies you endured for 30 years of service, but just because you came out relatively okay does not mean people experiencing the same or "less" are somehow inferior.

Even the US Military knows what's what. You and I originally joined for something other than a free college education. The majority of these kids today didn't. "I didn't sign up for this" is a recurring theme.

Honestly when I was with 2nd Mar Div this was not the attitude I encountered from Marines. Granted thats a relatively small slice, but my experience. Everyone knows what is what from kids in the DEP to Marines with many years under the table looking to continue service. More deployments, more fighting, more stress etc, some have moved back to civilian life others stay, but please stop pretending this generation of Marines (and other services) are a bunch of jack @$$es out for some sweet GI Bill money. It's a fraking insult and isn't what one would expect from someone who did 30 years of honorable service.

It really is a generational thing. Look at WW2. EVERYONE wanted to be part of the fight. Korea? Not so much, but those in the military went in fully knowing what was expected. Vietnam, again...not so much. The people at home were on board, but the military had doubts. By the end, everyone was against it. Desert Storm brought everyone back on board again. And now this. The people are tired of it, the troops are not allowed to do what's required to win, and management is clueless.

Me thinks you glorify WW2 a little bit too much. They had problems then just like we have now and will have 10 years from now. The military is made up of humans and humans have issues, concerns, needs what have you. This war is happening right in our faces (for those who care) thanks to the internet and 24 hour news, so all the bad parts of war that could be swept under in previous wars are in your face constantly.
In one of your earlier posts you eluded to the number dead vs time spent in theatre to support your argument of this generation being a bunch of babies. You do realize that a huge reason the war dead is so small is the incredible advances in medical technology since WW2 and Korea right? Unlike those two wars we have way more walking wounded in the service and out than they did. If you got shot in some God forsaken island in the pacific, good luck making it back to medical before you bled out. Now anyone can reach into an IFAK and pull out the clotting agent and within seconds staunch an injury that would have killed someone 50 years ago, while his buddy calls for evac that arrives in under an hour. In other words people are still being shot, stabbed, blown up etc like in WW2, only difference is more live to tell about it.
This is a war of ideology, so troops alone will never win this war, unless we kill every man, woman and child in that country who does not adopt the beliefs we view as appropriate. If the young children of Afghan / Iraq believe that a future without Jihadist is the best one, Jihadist will cease to exist.

So again Robert, I ask that you stop selling this generation of warriors short with terms like wusses and babies. They may not have 30 years under their belt yet, but they deserve better. These men and women answered the call 98% probably can't be bothered to think about.

I live right here at Camp LeJeune. I talk to the Marines every day. Marines are a different breed, as you well know. When I was in the Marines, we did what we were told. They still do.

By your own admission, 98% of today's generation want nothing to do with the military. Glorify the WW2 generation? Yep. They had 100% trying to go. It was so much that women had to work the factory jobs. I had an Uncle at Tarawa, one in a B17 as a waist gunner, and another in the Navy as a UDT member. My grandmother built bombers. None of them ever complained, and all of my uncles had several medals, including Silver Stars, Navy Cross, and Distinguished Service. I have uncles who fought in Lorea. Same again. Vietnam? My uncle, father, and stepfather, in country.

People bled out because they wore no protective armor. They had a helmet, and that was it. Today, you can stand and shoot with little chance of being killed. It happens, but not as it would if body armor was not available. Which is more freightening? Being in a firefight with thousands of well trained enemy and no PPE, or being in a firefight with a few poorly trained enemy and covered almost entirely with bullet-proof armor? Your odds of getting killed are slim right now. We didn't use body armor when I deployed in the Marines. Flak Vests do not stop bullets. Most of us didn't wear helmets either.

The ones who signed up to be in the military are not the problem. The ones who signed up for any other reason are. You know it. The ones who signed up to be in the military suck up alot of injuries. I see them every day on Courthouse Bay at the gym. They use the gym for physical therapy. None of them complain. I lost half my Boot Camp platoon in Beirut. The ones who lived don't complain. I went to school with one on Ft Eustis(we're both Guard now) last year. He's still just as fun as he ever was. So yeah, I say it's a generational thing.

The Military seems to think that too. They keep asking us old guys to come back. The "maturity and discipline" thing is what they want.

By your own admission, 98% of today's generation want nothing to do with the military. Glorify the WW2 generation? Yep. They had 100% trying to go. It was so much that women had to work the factory jobs. I had an Uncle at Tarawa, one in a B17 as a waist gunner, and another in the Navy as a UDT member.

Today's society is different. Quite honestly at this point (being under 30) I had 0 zero to do with how things have turned out thus far. My generation inherited this from the older generation. Children learn from their parents for the most part so if the kids today are crap what does that say about the Baby Boomers? If today's kids have no desire to serve or in some cases persuaded not to serve, what does that say about the baby boomers?
Just to add in my own story; I went to a conservative college (a majority of influential alumni leaned this way and a good chunk of professors did as well) and when I told them of my plans to join the Marines they were incredulous. Not just the liberals, but the conservative war hawks as well, they apparently did not see a reason why people should join. Some of my friends got similiar reactions from teachers, ministers and parents. This is the generation that raised my generation, if we suck, well like the Marines teach us leadership is responsible.
I'm not whining, its up to us to fix this mess and I look forward to doing a much BETTER job than the boomers did and I look forward to teaching the next generation to do a better job than I did.

People bled out because they wore no protective armor. They had a helmet, and that was it. Today, you can stand and shoot with little chance of being killed. It happens, but not as it would if body armor was not available. Which is more freightening? Being in a firefight with thousands of well trained enemy and no PPE, or being in a firefight with a few poorly trained enemy and covered almost entirely with bullet-proof armor? Your odds of getting killed are slim right now. We didn't use body armor when I deployed in the Marines. Flak Vests do not stop bullets. Most of us didn't wear helmets either.

7.62 and 5.56 still penetrate SAPI armor and if anything stuff like the MTV plus a full combat load makes movement an ordeal. Add in MOPP gear like we did in the initial invasion part 2 (which in many cases was dumb and probably led to unnecessary deaths) and even the best Marines get winded fast. But that is kind of OT, armor helps but medical technology is the real life saver. 1 IFAK contains an incredible amount of lifesaving power and if you have a corpsman, unless you are blown into little chunks they can usually stabilize you for higher medicine. Don't discount those two factors.
I could make a similar argument comparing WW2 and the Civil War, but it doesnt matter. No one in WW2 was concerned with the battlefield horrors of the Civil War or WW1, they were focused on what was happening for THEIR war. So the Marines, soldiers etc of WW2 didn't have to worry about a force that didnt wear a uniform, attacked and melded back into the crowd, used $500 IEDs to destroy million dollar equipment and shielded themselves with civilians. The enemy was clear, he wore a German, Italian or Japanese uniform, now they dress up like women in an attempt to infiltrate and assassinate. Again I am not trying to have a penis measuring contest by saying who has the tougher war, but comparing the two is kind of dumb. This is 2010, the battlefield has changed because human beings have changed. The only way to victory is to acknowledge that.

So yeah, I say it's a generational thing.

I disagree, whiners are whiners and exist in every generation. They just didn't have the options they had in Korea and WW2. By the way the returning vets from WW1 who protested in front of the White House for some of the basic rights and services you, me active and vets have today were called whiners.

The Military seems to think that too. They keep asking us old guys to come back. The "maturity and discipline" thing is what they want.

Or it could be that a person with 20+ years of experience in a field in which the military needs but is short on is a very desirable person? Just for $hit$ and giggles I wish I had a time machine so I could go back and see just how mature and disciplined some of these older guys were when they were 18 - 25. My guess is they did some of the same stupid crap, they just didnt have a Facebook to post pics and videos of it.