well, "totally!" was posted after jwhite's FIRST POST. now after reading many jwhite posts, i agree with MOST of what jwhite posted. time passes.

women are more than breed mares. if people were breeding dogs and cats just to have kittens and puppies to EXPERIMENT on, wouldn't PETA be screaming its head off?

An embryo is no more a puppy than it is a child.

Your argument has no substance.

Women are NOT being bred to provide embryos for research. The embryos used are leftover from fertility clinics, genius.

Give it another shot, though, you might eventually come up with some rational, factual reason to oppose this, aside from the hysterical rantings of the religious nuts that feed you your talking points. I had to laugh at how many of you are sucked in by the bigots and idiots who are making a fortune off your gullibility and naivete.

Until embryonic stem cell research is legalized, I will continue to withhold my approval for organ donation. This is because I feel there are far more ethical problems with organ donation than there are with stem cell research. I will not change my living will and become an organ donor again until the government gets out of the ethics of science research and again approve of embryonic stem cell research. I have not had organ donation on my drivers license for almost ten years now because of this issue, even though I have lost two friends to kidney disease during that time. I just wish Christians would mind their own business and quit trying to control everybody else. ------- mind your own business!

Gary- Just out of curiosity, what does withholding organ donation have to do with embyonic stem cell research? I am pro stem cell research, as well as pro organ donation. And while I approve of both, I can understand the argument that embryos don't have the opportunity to "defend" themselves, so to speak. Meaning they can't volunteer. Organ donors are people of a legal age who willingly donate their organs after they are of no use to that person (after they die). I'm just looking for a little clarification.

Well, well, guess what I found out?

The unusual suit against the National Institutes of Health, backed by some Christian groups opposed to embryo research, argued that the NIH policy violates U.S. law and takes funds from researchers seeking to work with adult stem cells.

This is not exactly true. From NPR:

A federal appeals court had ruled that two doctors who were among those bringing the lawsuit, adult stem cell researchers James Sherely of the Boston Biomedical Research Institute and Theresa Deisher of AVM Biotechnlogy, had the authority to do so, prompting Lamberth to reverse a decision he made last October.

There went the "Christians are evil" argument.

Theresa Deisher is involved in an organization called "Sound Choice Pharmaceutical Institute", a christian based research incubator that promotes small businesses that follow christian guidelines.

Not saying that's a bad thing, just putting it out there...

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v466/n7303/full/466159a.html

An editorial from Nature. Interesting...

How in the hell do you sue the national institute of health for doing biology research? Can I sue the Pentagon over Iraq? Two researchers screw everyone because they can't write decent grant proposals. If Christians don't want stem cell work done then why can't they step back and just turn down the benefits when they are dying? Or when their kids are. This is rediculous, hello dark ages.

R.O.

You might find this article interesting:

http://www.denverpost.com/dontmiss/ci_14871656?source=rsshomemiss

I posted this last week on my coloum.

"people who are always bringing up the church and state stuff, should just move out of the country"

While I understand your frustration I recommend you make a larger effort to reach out to people who feel differently and communicate about the scientific goals of this country. For reasons larger (but including) stem cell funding, many scientists are taking your advice and are leaving. Each country that has stopped science in favor of doing something else first, even with the intention of restarting science later (Germany, for example) has fallen. At heart, I suppose the scientists are capitalists, and we go where we can work. But I would hope you would want that to be here.

It also doesn't say that your narrow and bigotted opinions can be forced on the rest of us. How would you take it if we found a bigotted group of voters who took our position that Christians are second class citizens with no right to marriage, should be taxed based on the number of children the have, no tax benefits for money given to religious organizations, and that you couldn't build a religious edifice within 20 blocks of any abortion clinic, anywhere in Oklahoma and that the words "God" and "Jesus" are so offensive to us that you have to use "G-word" and "J-word" in public? All it takes is one more of us to vote and you have no rights, isn't that what you are doing to all of us?

There are too many Agnostics, Buddhists, Hindus, and Muslims for you right wing white bible thumpers to pull that crap off coninually now.

Try to deport me! You can't!

When churches in America start paying taxes is when I'll listen to what you have to say. Till then church and state are separated for a dame good reason....

There is another country that lets a religion dictate all the laws. Do you want to guess which country that is? I'll give you a hint . . . there currently many US soldiers fighting there.

Take your time.

Mr. fire letterman,

At no point, in your rambling incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having read it. I award you no points and may God have mercy on your soul.

Well fire, I'm sorry you're so upset.....that would be the exact opposite of what I wanted. Some of your points are disagreements of morality; that is, it sounds like you've made up your mind on a subjective matter and therefore there is no point arguing with you about the potential benefit of stem cell research while you have decided no amount of good can make up for what you see as its moral shortcommings.

However, I would like to respond to the anger and frustration you express. You say I speak out of both sides of my mouth? Because I make myself out to be like the average guy but then try to one up him? I think instead it is the following: I have values much the way you do, but on a few topics we differ sharply. You would be right to examine my background to understand this. I am a different type of conservative. In the hicks and sticks, as you put it, where I grew up we were more libertarian than anything. I hold many conservative values, yet we argue over stem cell research. I personally find it more disturbing to debate someone who is closer to my political leanings, which I think is why you are more angry with me than most liberals.

I wanted to comment on that because I do feel strongly that the GOP needs to strike out in a new direction, but still has a lot to offer if they could move forward, and I want to be a part of that. But now I really am off topic. Hope that relieved some of the tension.

fire letterman- First off I thought I was the most Bossy writer on the Vine. Second -Get over the David Letterman thing Sally. Third youre just pissed because you flunked out of community college and are now forced to listen to educated, intelligent people. Pathetic !!

Why is it when I read the Federalist Papers by Madison last he did not use one reference to the Bible in the very lengthly philisophical discussion of the justification for the various points of the new constitution? There were plenty of references to Greek and Roman classical authors and history and also to European history. I think that the present day Christians are a totally different sort, and they have no business claiming that America is a "Christian Nation." In fact todays Christians are one wing of the reactionary right whose politics has little to do with what the founding fathers were talking about. They have become a special interest group which undermines the democratic principles this country was founded on.

Fire Letterman- WHY are YOU yelling AT us? Life may have been better for you before people started adhering to Seperation of Church and State, (and no, I'm not moving out of the country, so deal) but it certainly wasn't better for those people who were being persecuted for not adhered to a religion that they did not believe in. That is why this nation was founded specifically to protect its citizens from religious persecution, and from religious zealots such as yourself. The church has no influence on the state, as the state has no influence on the church. They are two seperate institutions. Two seperate entities. This is not a Christian nation. Just because Christianity is the dominant religion does not make it the religion of the nation. There is *No* national religion. Don't like it? Tough it out , because that has always been the case, and it will always be the case.

And in my personal belief, most Christians fail to bring up valid rational points on anything. All they can do is fall back on an archaic and outdated text. But, that just being my own personal opinion, has no real weight on anything. Just felt like sharing. I hate Sheeple.

Mike4703, I think that most religions were meant to help men help other men. That's a good thing. Fervent fanatical hypocrites see ripe pickings in blind faith, much like taking candy from a baby, and twist it into something ugly. That is what we see far too much of in present day "Christianity". Perhaps this proverb from the Bible would lead all to better understanding:

Proverbs 9:7-8 Whoever corrects a mocker invites insult; whoever rebukes a wicked man incurs abuse. [8] Do not rebuke a mocker or he will hate you; rebuke a wise man and he will love you.

Commonsense- I like what you said, because unfortunately, Christianity *could* have been a good thing. Jesus Christ was a true activist in his own right, a forward thinking revolutionary who challenged the modern day philosophies, and opened his heart to many troubled people. If that agenda had continued in the Christian religion, the world would indeed be a much better place today. Instead, it was corrupted by hateful men and women who twisted it to fuel their own ugly agenda. Christ never turned away anyone (especially those condemned by society. He loved them the most). I refuse to conform to a religion that propogates hate, which is sadly what Christianity has ultimately become.

I'm sorry for your medical condition, but that is a human life that is being mutilated for experiment and I am happy for this outcome. No one has the right to take another life by any means.

It's not a human life, it's the possibility of a human life.

I'll take the possibility of helping disease-"mutilated" humans that already exist over a few cells any day.

Contesa:

I think you missed the point of the previous post. The human embryos that would be used are destroyed every day at fertility clinics. During the process of artificial insemination numerous embryos are produced and only one is selected for implantation. The rest of the embryos are either frozen or discarded depending on the protocols of the clinic. While this process is completely legal and common, no one seems to complain about the process as it is not stigmatized by the terms “stem cell research”.

Just for the record, there are a number of organizations (mostly Christian but not all) that try to find adoptive mothers for embryos so that unused embryos don't have to be destroyed.

Contesa,

I will agree with you ONLY when miscarriages are treated the same way. By that, I mean I want every religious woman who has a miscarriage to be brought up on manslaughter charges. Sure, she didn't murder the baby on purpose, but her actions led to the death of a "human life" (as you call it.)

Do you see the hypocrisy of Christians (and other religions)? You see, they call it murder when it's a choice . . . but they want to ignore manslaughter. Well you can't have it both ways. Either it's a human life, and manslaughter applies, or it's not. Pick one.

Give me a break!! These embryos are being poured down the drain!! What part of that do a great many of you not understand! They hold the potential promise of cure or at least relief from a myriad of conditions that are progressive and debilitating. What part of that do you not understand? Many of you are so up in arms about the "destruction of human life" but you don't get that way about all the children in this country who are already being abused, starves, beaten etc. You won't step up to parent the babies who already need help. These embryos are being destroyed in a much less dignified way so I say let them be used for research and hopefully for miraculous discoveries that only they can provide. And yes--use my tax dollars. I can think of a lot of things my taxes are used for now that are far more offensive.

ka56, yes, and they have a "club" too, right? what is the name of it? these little walking, takling, LIVE "embryos"....having a GOOD TIME in life! because they were born. (and not thrown into the garbage).

So, fire, you follow them to make sure that they're all well fed, cared for, and loved? You pay for their upbringing, college, etc?

How responsible of you! I'm so relieved that somebody is actually making sure they're cared for beyond just making sure they're born, regardless of the circumstances into which they're born

WHEW!!!!

Thoughts from Cali - According to the Mayo Clinic Guide to a Healthy pregnancy, "Except for the use of some illicit drugs, your actions can't cause a miscarriage."

Linda, Fire, Wherescommonsense - Bethany Christian Services (www.bethany.org) is just one of the many organizations that organizes embryo adoption. They also specialize in international and domestic adoptions (many of them children with special needs), foster care and raising money for single mothers and their children. So for Linda who thinks that we don't care about the children who are already suffering or for Wherescommonsense who thinks that we won't help in the long-term, I suggest that you get to know a few more Christians because the ones I know practice what they preach.

thanks, I've had more than my fill of 'Christians'.

While some of you may practice what you preach, the majority don't. Good for you, now do something about the rest who are hypocrites and control freaks, who want to tell everybody how to live their lives, rather than worrying about their own failings.

Maybe I am missing something here, but it is my understanding that fertility clinics are there to help someone get pregnant. Any embryos that are there belong to someone who has voluntarily gone there for treatment. Those embryos belong to someone, and therefore the decision should belong to that person as to what happens to them. If they choose to have any remaining destroyed, frozen, or donated for research, it should be up to them.

To ka56, "... there are a number of organizations (mostly Christian but not all) that try to find adoptive mothers for embryos so that unused embryos don't have to be destroyed."

That's not even legal. You can't use another person's embryos to have a child (without their permission, at least). So are these organizations harassing these poor women who are at these clinics getting treatments? Trying to convince them to donate their remaining embryos to other women. That's the most ridiculous thing I have read in a long time, if it is true.

That's not even legal. You can't use another person's embryos to have a child (without their permission, at least).

That's why it is adoption of the embryo, i.e. it is done with the woman's permission.

So are these organizations harassing these poor women who are at these clinics getting treatments?

Wow, this is a loaded statement... ("have you stopped beating your wife?") It just might be possible that someone who went through an IVF procedure and doesn't want more children might actually want to donate their excess embryos to infertile couples.

I have no problem with adoption of embryos as long as it is done within the law etc. Problem is that there is no way that takes care of all the embryos that are disposed of every day. My argument is that I would prefer seeing those used in research which dignifies their existence as opposed to thrown down the drain as if they are trash. An embryo has the potential of viability but is not a viable being as yet. That is a huge distinction. Truth is that every woman sheds most of the eggs she produces and men flush sperm by the millions. All of those put together have the potential to create life. Nature provides the mechanism which does not allow that to happen. Using the embryos created for in vitro and then not used for that is giving them a new purpose. It is insane to prefer that they be dumped down the drain.

Wherescommonsense - I can't do any more about self-righteous Christians than the average Muslim can do about terrorists. I think they're in the minority but like most extremists, they tend to be more vocal and obviously more memorable. We would call this sort of stereotyping bigottry if it were towards any other group of people but somehow it's acceptable and even popular when it's towards Christians.

Anyway, my original point was that many of the people who oppose using embryos for testing are trying to find alternatives to seeing them destroyed. And one of these alternatives is embryo adoption.

That is true. However, the alternative use of embryos should not preclude the scientific use of those which will be discarded anyway. As I have said, scientific use is far more dignified than simply being poured down the drain. The embryos contain the potential to be a human being but are not yet that. To view them the same way one views a newborn baby is ridiculous.

www.creationmoments.org

www.creationmoments.com

check it out.

read that for a year,or a few days, and you WON'T be saying "anti-science" again. ENJOY!

jcbwell: It is wounderful you know what is writen in the First Amendment of the Constitution. It would appear from the content of your writing, you might be misguided in the meaning; of that, which so elegantly quoted. Any court ruling or statue law, which seeks to establish preemptive redress based upon a religious belief, against the actions of American citizens; is in fact, the establishment of religiom.

Science has nothing to do with this. God let that embryo be created to sustain a life and just because it was "extra" has nothing to do with science. Only science destroys living cells for their own benefit. God has the last word on this and his Word says it is murder.

contesa: I applaud your clearness of mind and aderence to your moral duty. For myself, I fell inellecturally inadequate to make such a profound moral judgement for others. It is all I can do; to endeavor, to do choose the right path for myself.

That is only if you believe in your god. I do not, therefore it was not created for any religious fanatical reasons.

sigh...

ok, guess what? if you don't like this research, then MAKE SURE NEITHER YOU NOR YOUR CHILDREN in perpetuity EVER use any of this research to cure your ills.

God will grant you a special place in heaven...

Fact is, if you use any medication, treatment, or technology to cure an illness, you're defying God's will because you're not allowing Him to decide whether you will live or die. Likewise stem cell research would fall under that umbrella, so refuse all medical treatments and just pray over your children, parents, family members for God to heal them.

What's that old joke, guy stranded on his roof in a flood prays to God for rescue. A boat comes by, but he tells them to go on, he's waiting. A helicopter comes by, he tells them to go, too. Eventually he drowns and when he gets to heaven he says 'I prayed to you, why didn't you save me from drowning?' and God says 'I sent a boat and a helicopter, what more did you want?'

High Five!!! Well stated.. needed good laugh..

contesa.....

you are mistaken. No "god" allowed the embryo to be created...science did - in a petri dish. And for the record, an embryo dosn't sustain life. It has potential to become a being that is independant and able to sustain itself. An embryo doesn't function outside of a uterus. It would cease if outside a place where it receives oxygen, nutrition and safety.

go back to 10th grade biology.

Now, how about the rest of us and our rights?

You seem to have a very intense belief about this! You're even getting out there and proselytizing others to join you.

quickster, nobody is forcing you to be CHRISTIAN. where are YOUR scientific break throughs?

before the pro-aborts began beating on their worn out drums in the old days in the 70's, most people, whether they be Christian or not, would have thought that to EXPERIMENT on someone's BABY would be just totally GHOULISH and creepy and EVIL.

You attacked me unjustly and without provocation. Is that your Christian way? No, I will back any party that seeks to promote keeping church and state separate and Christianty out of my life and my family's life. Its churches are rotten and filtly and winnowing out. Look at how the catholic church is getting taken down in America and elsewhere.

If I wanted to live in a theocracy I would move to an Islamic Republic but I like freedom from religion here.

Moreover, stuff your jesus.

Insha Allah

would have thought that to EXPERIMENT on someone's BABY would be just totally GHOULISH and creepy and EVIL.

Well, it's a good thing a blastocyst is not a baby then... even if the anti-abortion folks from back in the 1970s on up to today would like us to think so...

Yes, just look at the lifespans in all of those non-Christian countries! Wouldn't you just want all of that for America?

Well, maybe you mean that religion is the problem.... Well, just look at non-religious and medically forward Cuba. A medical paradise? A fountain of youth? You decide.

Fire Letterman - According to all studies, embryo's are not babies. The stage of development in which an embryo becomes a fetus (or what most people consider a baby), doesn't happen until week 10. Prior to week ten, it is considered a blastocyst, or a collection of cells containing embryonic materials. That being said, there is nothing evil about using an embryo that is going to be discarded anyway, and that is a fact. These embryos are left overs from fertility clinics. These embryos were not harvested for the direct purpose of stem cell research. They will simply be dumped down the drain, flushed away, scraped. Why, WHY should they be thrown out when they can be of so much value to help sustain human life? As a "Christian", you're supposed to value human life. That embryo is not a "human". It has no "life". But it does hold a vast majority of answers that can help cure many people who need it. Give me one *logical* reason why that is wrong. I dare you. And for the record , capping and shouting every other word at us doesn't constitute as logical. It's really just annoying and takes away even more from an already illogical argument.

fire letterman,

When legislation is being created or not created in the name of a religion....that is interfering with my personal choice to not practice in one.

You may also want to go back to 9th grade HS biology. Embryos are nothing more than a cluster of specialized cells that have a potential for more. Comparing a embryo to a human is like saying a seed is a tree. Embryos don't sustain life. They don't breathe, eat or reproduce. And to say as such is totally false.

Science and research has been stunted for so long that we have actually lost time, money , cures and lives. Get off your high horse and stop being so arrogant to think that embryos...human or otherwise....should be considered for anything more other than the random cells they are.

Gary,

Yes...a lot is done off shore. Christians can bray like cur donkeys to their hearts' content. However, you mentioned, among other things, "the possibility of human embryonic stem cell research finding a Ponce De Leon, type of "Fountain of Youth?"

When have you ever read about money not prevailing over any and all endeavors in America? Probably never. How many ads, bus benches, bill boards advertising or implying "youth rejuvenating " surgery, drugs, and weenie hardening compounds like Viagra?

The Christian bible thumpers, at this point, are merely "reactionaries" as embryonic stem cell research, either right or wrong, has been linked to the "fountain of youth" and better sexual activity and all of that jazz.

The course is therefore set without one court case. For it to affect America it does not even have to happen or take place in America.

However, when have you ever known Americans to stand in the way of making money that is not completely clean. It is said in Arabic that "a $50.00 bill knows no master."

Because of all of the hedonism that exists among Republicans alone (forget the lefties as they are not even needed) like Suntan John Boehner-----the course for America in regard to this matter is set and it cost less money and is much more profitable for the GOP and the ultra rich than even invading Iraq was. Of course the taxpayers will have to pay for all of the tabs for Iraq and to support all of the Iraqi refugees that America will get withing the next decade.

The bible thumpers backed the wrong horse and crippled themselves and are only exceeding at making enemies and alienating people.

Insha Allah

We all die sooner or later, come the personal terms with that.

Why do some people advocate opening Pandora's Box for your own immortality. Which one seems more selfish and misguided?

How can anyone say that God did not have those extra embryos created for exactly what is going on here? How can anyone know if He didn't plan it that way so there would be extra embryos that were not meant to be brought forth in the way that everyone assumes they should (as a baby) but were meant to bring forth a better, happier, life for those who have sickness, disabilities, etc? Who can absolutely say what God's plans are?

To John S-400329........Amen!

More evidence that belief in religion is reserved for the un-educated

After reading all religious posts in this forum, I have never been more convinced of this statement.

Sort of like the "majority rules" myth, right? We don't live in a democracy, we live in a constitutional republic where judges can check the voters by ruling gay marriage constitutional.

Sadly true UCS, we're not in Kansas anymore Toto........:(.

I'm just saying neither is officially protected by the constitution. I think you might be happier if you accepted both myths, which would still give you the power to vote things down you didn't like if you were in the majority.

The slippery slope argument is itself a slippery slope! One could make the same argument about many things . . . if we allow adult stem cell research, what is next, embryonic stem cell research, and then what? Okay, so we've now eliminated stem cell research

If we allow experimenting on animals, what is next humans? Oops, there goes most medical research!

If we allow people to eat pork, that will be offensive to Muslims and Jews since they do not eat pork. So now we can't eat pork!

As far as separation of church and state, you are corect that the phrase does not appear in the constitution, but the statement, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances" seems to pretty much cover the issue.

The objection to embryonic stem cell research is generally one of concern because Christians consider an embryo to be human life. Scientifically, that is not the claim.

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

United States Constitution, Amendment 1 - Freedom of Religion, Press, Expression

Re-tard

So my religion states that there shall be this and that and the other that is against your tenets, what then? I do not believe in your religion, your god. Why do you think people left their home lands to come here. I do not agree in your delusion. I don't care if Ben Franklin wrote a letter about it or if was or was not in the constitution I still don't want someone elses religion involved with my government process.

I do vote and accept both sides but believe neither Dem or Reb have the Nations best interest in mind anymore. You chose the lesser of two evils in every election now. Each side works to get as much power as possible regardless of what laws or ethics are ignored to do so and regulate to bypass existing laws.

I agree, we do live in a constitional republic but corruption is at its heart.

Paul the whole concept was to keep the state out of religion not twisted to allow a vocal minority like you to ignore ethics, regardless of what religion they come from. Name called shows who you really are as a person. Try to understand the concept and why it is there rather than using only what is useful to your arguement.

"The concept of separating church and state is often credited to the writings of English philosopher John Locke.^[8] According to his principle of the social contract, Locke argued that the government lacked authority in the realm of individual conscience, as this was something rational people could not cede to the government for it or others to control. For Locke, this created a natural right in the liberty of conscience, which he argued must therefore remain protected from any government authority. These views on religious tolerance and the importance of individual conscience, along with his social contract, became particularly influential in the American colonies and the drafting of the United States Constitution.^[9]

The concept was implicit in the flight of Roger Williams from religious oppression in Massachusetts to found what became Rhode Island on the principle of state neutrality in matters of faith.^[10][11]"

^{http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Separation_of_church_and_state}

Mark, Christians are the LAST ones to talk about ignoring ethics...guess what 'faith' the wall street rapists and congressmen/women are? And the VAST majority of the prison system is...So much for ethics...

The bible belt has the highest divorce rates in the US behind Nevada. The Godless Liberal Northeast has the lowest... go figure...

The First Amendment means that I don't have to have your religion crammed down my throat. Nobody requires you to utilize any treatments that come from this research. So just don't use it, the rest of us may...

@Mark-1026306

"There is no 'Church and State' in the Constitution, it was in a letter Benjamin Franklin wrote to someone. So this idea so many have that the Constitution forbids Church and State is not true."

The concept of "separation of church and state" was in fact first articulated in a letter written by Thomas Jefferson, who was also the author if the Declaration of Independence and the US Constitution, but it was also stated by others of the Founding Fathers. In an 1878 case styled Reynolds vs. United States, the US Supreme Court ruled that the declarations of Thomas Jefferson in the area of separation of church and state have the force of Constitutional law.

Attributing this core legal and philosophical concept to Benjamin Franklin instead of Jefferson merely emphasizes the appalling ignorance of zealots driven by religious agendas in this dialogue.

"The purpose of separation of church and state is to keep forever from these shores the ceaseless strife that has soaked the soil of Europe in blood for centuries."

(~~James Madison, 1803)

"They [preachers] dread the advance of science as witches do the approach of daylight and scowl on the fatal harbinger announcing the subversions of the duperies on which they live."

(~~Thomas Jefferson, 1823)

No they would jump on board like it was their idea all along. Like the idea the earth is round. And like the idea that the earth is not the center of the universe. Like the idea that there are these litle tiny invisible things called germs.

These religious morons have been fighting scientific progress for thousands of years. Why should they stop now? I am hoping that we will eventually breed them out of the gene pool and we can have a better society of atheists. What a beautiful vision.

The earth is round? LOL

You're right: religion has held back progress. I can't believe these reactionaries still exist.

Well stated crabdusty. Religion could be a very positive institution if it weren't for these zealots ruining your image. I believe in God, and consider myself a spiritual person, but I will never be a part of an institution that is so blatantly discriminatory and self righteous. If we could get rid of the nut jobs, I'd rethink the whole thing.

paul adams-2190357, have you have time to check out www.creationmoments.org

www.creationmoments.com

after that, you might like to apologise for the "ignorant" comment. it is a very interesting site. you can sign up for the newsletters. MAN UP....read at least a month or two, THEN make your judgements. ENJOY.

Ha ha, I went to your site as recommended. Thanks for the humorous link; there is some pretty hilarious stuff on there. To return the favor, I'm going to post one of my favorite humor sites: www.theonion.com

Enjoy!

John-2248486, i got to see a couple of real life HEAD HUNTERS, speaking of the "vast majority of humans are not Christians".... what do you think you would do if YOU met them, BEFORE them became CHRISTIANS!? they had killed people. bing&google: Elizabeth Elliot ~ Jim Elliot

religion is like food. some is good, the rest is toxic, worthless, cotton candy junk food, downright EVIL, etc. but you CAN'T through out ALL food. you have to decipher between the good, and not so good. the real and the junk. you don't say "GET RID OF ALL FOOD", just because someone breaks out in zits, or gets too fat, or is allergic to gluten. everyone would STARVE to death on "get rid of all"....food.

@fire letterman

You speak as though Christians have never killed anyone in the name of their religion. How would you have liked to have been a Jew who was forced to convert to Christianity during the Reconquista in Spain and subsequently accused of still celebrating Channukah instead of Christmas, then dragged before the kindly, loving Christians of Torquemada's Inquisition, tortured with hot irons and tongs until you admitted your apostasy, then burnt alive at the stake?

Religion has almost always been the enemy of Reason and Science.

How sad your post and how true your post.

China is working 24/7 with their best and the best foreign talent they can hire. If they get it the money they have made off of the Americans so far will be "small potatoes" and China will take gladly what the Americans have left.

All of the people in pain and sick will pay dearly for cures or pain relief. However, for vanity, Americans will be willing to pay much more.

The Chinese know this well and they do not allow any Christianity into their program as they know that it just phucks up progress and causes bad feelings.

Sad is right. Other countries are passing us by while we sit on our fat asses and watch Oprah and plan who we can sue next.

Right. They can play jesus and nail each other up on Easter.

Those are some harsh comments. I am a Christian and by no means think I run anything but my own life. I dont "play Jesus and nail anything up on Easter." And I have prayed sickness away and I have had unexplained miracles happen in my life. Can you say the same?

Your comments are immature, disgusting and offensive. And I will bet you could care less. At least some people in this world have compassion for others.

I surely hope you never, ever find need for something deeper than your own sense of self-aggrandizement. You are not, nor ever will be, better than the feces that the neighbor's dog leaves on your lawn. For that matter, neither will I. In all honesty, if I live a life according to a certain set of tenets and I die and nothing happens other than my body rotting into the ground, what have I lost? But if I blatantly turn my back on even the mere possibility of God or religion or faith or anything and live however I want and treat people however I want... then I die and I'm wrong? I've lost everything. Your hate speech isn't any better than those who burn crosses or speak out against Muslim houses of worship in NYC or people who use the N-word. Last I looked, we all shared the same DNA... it's all human. Yes, even those embryos that are no more than a 'clump of cells'. Human DNA. Not chicken, not cat, not monkey or bear or lion. Human. And if we can't seem to have some sense of respect of life for even the smallest part of who we are, for the very youngest building blocks of what we are, then we are a sad, sad society.

Let me pose a question to you. If we were to find out that our elderly housed a certain kind of 'aged' genetic mutation that, if extracted and planted into children, would cure everything from buck teeth to spina bifida... would we be pushing for a legal ruling that would allow us to say that life is over at 80?

This isn't about God, or Jesus or Allah or Christianity or Buddhism or Atheism. It's about a fundamental respect for humanity.

I know you arent referring to me.

One, I never referred to if I favored stem cell research or not so your assumptions are wrong. Two, i have Faith and that is my choice. I KNOW i will not be S#it in the ground as you claim you will be. Im sorry you feel that way. And since it is my belief and my choice, yes if you arent a believer and you have known Christ and rejected him, then yes you will not be where I will.

I wasnt even referencing the article just simply stating that those posts were rude and offensive. The only hate speeches were the ones posted above my comment. I was only doing what everyone else does and defending what I believe in. (Just as your post.)

You and I must have both responded at the same time, because I was referring to the poster above you.

Sorry...

@Stitzelfritz: Regarding your thought experiment: hell the @!$%# yes. In my aged state, as I've already lived (what I presume to be) a full life, if something about me would enable even one young life to live better and more ably than he or she might otherwise, then by all means.

Suck the marrow from my bones and have at it.

Part of being human, bro, involves knowing when to be altruistic and sacrifice for the greater good.

And I have prayed sickness away and I have had unexplained miracles happen in my life. Can you say the same?

I got over a cold once without taking any medication. If that doesn't prove the existence of God, I don't know what does! Thankee Jesus! Praise God!

Like I have previously stated, its all personal belief.

At least you have the decency to capitalize what needs to be capitalized.

They are no where near a cure for anything, so stop the hyperbole.

We would be a hell of a lot closer to a cure if stem cell research had not been crippled by the last administration.

They are no where near a cure for anything, so stop the hyperbole.

And Christians are praying and working day and night to make sure that there never will be a cure for anything. Praise Jesus!