Band of Blubbers!

Fort Jackson has ALWAYS been called "Relax in Jackson" thought to be that way because of the mixed sex recruits.

“What we were finding was that the soldiers we’re getting in today’s Army are not in as good shape as they used to be,” said Lt. Gen. Mark Hertling, who oversees basic training for the Army. “This is not just an Army issue. This is a national issue.”

So lower the physical requirements to accomadate their lard azzes? This is really outrageous! Hell, I know 40 and even 50 year olds at my gym who pump massive iron and do cardio work and look like they just stepped out of the WWE. If a 50 year old who works out can easily pass any physical fitness standard past or present the Army has put in place than why lower the standard to accomadate the fat and lazy? I've never seen a single military person who has ever looked as good as these middle age people I see at the gym.

Which brings me to another question. Why does the military set an age limit of just 26 for enlistment anyway? I've always presumed it was a physical fitness issue and they assumed that older people couldn't pass their fitness standard. Nothing could be farther from the truth. Also, an older person is much more mature and therefore far more focused in general. Seems to me recruiting an older individual would be a definite advantage.

The max enlistment age is now 42, not 26. I am in and have been in for nearly 19 years, so I should know. I will agree that we lower the standards considerably since I joined. Garbage in garbage out....Now that Iraq is winding down, we will start putting people out, but not the basic trainees. Imagine that. Keep the green kids but put your best out.

the recruitment age now for the army is 43. the fact is the country is getting larger, and older people are working out more for their health to stay alive longer because of medical issues. why should the size of a person be a factor if they can do the job?

The cut off age for new recruits was raised in 2003 or 2004 to 42, at the same time the mandatory retirement age was raised to 62. PT is a team building event as much as it is physical fitness training. I need to know the guy next to me can carry me out in a combat situation. As for passing a PT Test, it is mental. I got blown out of a truck and a few months later could pass the Army Standard PT Test. Of course, certain types of units have higher requirements than just the minimum, Air Borne for example. Also, Special Forces and Rangers have additional PT requirements that include a passing time on the obstacle course and a passing swim time.

The max enlistment age is now 42, not 26

Eric,

Is that 42 for active duty or just Guard and Reserve?

All of you that are dogging those who are being trained with pilates; have you even tried it. I will tell you this much, I was in the Army 11 plus years and a real Pilates workout would absolutely get you into top shape. Try it before you run your mouths any more because you are looking ignorant as you real have no clue.

Fat, dumb, and drunk- sounds like Animal House!

All of you that are dogging those who are being trained with pilates; have you even tried it. I will tell you this much, I was in the Army 11 plus years and a real Pilates workout would absolutely get you into top shape.

Troy Wellard,

The question is are they really doing Pilates? I doubt it. I do Pilates and it is much harder than situps. Situps and crunches are a piece of cake in comparison. There is no way these fat people could really do it. And if you are really doing Pilates then why would you do Yoga which has absolutely no application in military fitness?

The Quote is actually "Fat drunk and stupid is now way to go through life, son." Animal House

Where are y'all getting your numbers from?

Active Duty None-Prior Service
Army - 42 (must ship to basic training prior to 42nd birthday)
Air Force - 27
Navy - 34
Marines - 28
Coast Guard - Age 27. Note: up to age 32 for those selected to attend A-school directly upon enlistment (this is mostly for prior service).

Reserve Non-Prior Service
Army Reserves - 42 (must ship to basic training prior to 42nd birthday)
Army National Guard - 35 (changed from 42 in 2009)
Air Force Reserve - 34
Air National Guard - 40 (Changed from 34 in Aug 2009)
Naval Reserves - 39
Marine Corps Reserve - 29
Coast Guard Reserves - Age 39

Sounds good. But the reality is still a mess hall serving greasy, oily meals with all the soda, cookies, and ice cream you want, but you'll actually have to argue for a cranberry juice and yogurt.

I have to agree with Troy Wellard. I spent 4 years in the army in the early 80s. I could easily max the fitness test at that time, but could not finish a step arobics class. Talk about humiliating. Here I am, a supposedly fit army soldier, and I'm being out done by overweight housewives. In addition, the fitness program for the army has been going down for years. I did basic train in 1982 in an all female unit at Fort Dix and then, after being out fo the service for 8 years, did another basic training in a co-ed unit at Fort Jackson in 1996. The basic training in Fort Dix was much more difficult for me, even though I was younger and in better shape at 20 than at 34.

When I was in boot camp - Air Force - we did the regular exercises. I was the only woman who did NOT do the "girly" push ups, mine were like the guys, normal. I did all the pull ups, ran, finished 2nd in the obstacle course out of the women, along with stress fractures in both feet at the time, and made it thru just fine. Now they're teaching them yoga? What the hell is that going to accomplish going off to war? Not a damn thing.

Thankfully, I was not overweight, matter of fact they had me gain a pound just to let me in because I'm so small. I may be tiny, but I was strong. This was of course about 15 yrs ago. Even back then, the instructors weren't allowed to mention anything about religion, your mother, they couldn't touch you for fear of being sued... ridiculous. How do make a soldier out of that kind of training? Now it's just gotten worse. I had to weigh and measure an NCO once who instructed me to "fudge" the numbers on her paperwork because she just had a baby 3 months ago so she wouldn't be put on probation. I didn't give a crap. It was all useless anyway.

What surprised me the most in boot camp was the complete lack of any physical activity the women could NOT do, like a basic run, with no backpack! One girl fell off the monkey bars in front of me during the obstacle course and landed in the water. She literally started screaming and flailing about in the water, literally screaming about how she couldn't swim, yet if she'd only standup she'd find the water was no deeper than her damn boots. She of course got the bars wet for my turn, but I didn't fall in. I was the only one that didn't fall in for any of the water courses either, men or women. The military is not cranking out soldiers, unless they're Marines, or Special Ops, and seriously trained for combat. Anyone else is just useless.

These people wanting to join the military to serve their country would be so much better off if they were physically conditioned before they signed up - this way they'd have no problems during the physical training of boot camp. Better yet, join the Marines, and I guarantee you'll be ready for any war we're currently in or coming our way.

I'm disgusted at the way the military is failing our recruits. Even the crap I got away with, smoking on the way to chow at 5 in the morning because of my posistion in the flight group. Never got caught, though I also didn't run to the nurse or doctor every time I got hurt either. Dumbest thing I ever did was get a tattoo on my hip during police training the day before we did low crawl drills under barbed wire. Now that hurt!

It's a shame the Army is lowering their standards, I'm betting they will come to regret it.

I have said this before here on the Vine, if you want to raise healthy, strong children, stop feeding them fast food and processed, pre-packaged dinners. Below is a " how-to/do" list

Mom and Dad need to invest in a crockpot and slow cook lean meats with fresh veggies like potatoes and carrots.

Brown rice is healthier than white and whole wheat/whole grain bread is better than the white stuff.

Sugar in the raw or stevia is way better than "the white powder of death." Dinner out once a week is plenty of junk.

If you don't buy soda, you won't be tempted to drink it.

Take a walk after dinner with kids and the pets...everybody will be healthier for it.

Parents, I don't care how many hours you've worked or how tired you are....get off your duff and feed your kids properly. Afterall, they are looking to you to lead them into adulthood. Be a good example for them to follow.

I remember in basic how we ran in combat boots and chuka boots no less while in uniform. Now the little wusses are given sneakers and cute little shorts and tee shirts.

I believe that yoga would be a benefit simply because of the added flexibility. Sure, it doesn't build on strength, but being limber is important to in my opinion.

A REPUBLICAN said: "Fat, dumb, and drunk- sounds like Animal House!"

------------------------------------------------------------

Do you see yourself in that? Other than your destructive sarcasm that moronically misquoted that line -- what are YOU doing in the REAL WORLD, to positively support our men and women in uniform that are willing to physically improve themselves in the defense of this nation?

If you want to make a difference, then SIGN UP or SHUT UP.

my sister just finished her training at ft jackson...there were at lot of young adults there but regardless of age or weight they are doing us a favor by servings our ungrateful country...so all of u @!$%#ing idiot's talking @!$%#, why dont u sign up and leave ur families for months at a time; then come back and read some bull@!$%# like this and lets see how u feel....? btw they must be doing there jobs or we wouldn't have our freedom.... all of these @!$%#en negative post really make me sick, u guys should be a shame of your self's!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The standards have been going down forever.

During the 1970s (Selective Service Card). The PT Test was an all day event, Run Dodge and Jump, Push ups, Sit ups, Inverted Crawl, Horizontal Ladder, and the Run; in unform and Combat boots.

1980s chopped to Push ups, Sit ups and Run in Combat boots.

Later 1980s, Push ups, sit ups and run in running shoes (not Combat boots). During the later 1980s we were already doing aerobics in addition to the standard PT.

My comments being what are you going to do stop while under fire and change to running shoes (extra pounds that you are carrying). Example: The Mogadishu Mile (boots, full battle rattle and weapon).

Other training to survive, Air Assault School, 10 miles (up and down hills) in 2 hours, full battle rattle, pack and weapon, push ups and pull ups at end.

Airborne School, USN Dive School, etc.

Ranger PT Test, including the swim in full uniform, battle rattle, boots and pack.

This article believes that many of these are irrelevant. So the question that comes up, what exercises do you do to build:

1. Upper arm strength without special equipment in the field, like push ups. Necessary for Mountain Climbing like for Mountain Warfare School for Afghanistan. Rope bridges to get across flash floods (Afghanistan after each winter).

2. Abdominal strength back muscles, like sit ups. This is necessary to keep your back straight when lifting someone heavier than yourself so you do not injure you back.

3. Leg endurance like running. 2 miles was the minimum during the Cold War (Conventional Warfare) to reach a location for Retrograde. Now a days in certain circumstances you might have to run further, as a while back during Command and General Staff College and War College the next Wars after the USSR would not be Conventional Warfare and would be Asymmetric Warfare (and they were correct, too bad the Flag Officers did not listen.). example: Afghanistan running or hiking out of the mountains for hours to get to the nearest FOB, COB. (if you want to get swarmed just call for a helicopter extraction, helicopter seen for miles, not to mention the wind vortexes that will drive the helicopter into a mountain face.).

The US Military Conventional Warfare Forces must train up to Special Warfare (current and future Asymmetric Wars). And we know that short term high intensity, like football players will not make it through training, that tri atheletes, marthon runners, etc. will. examples: USN BUD/S, USMC MARSOC, USAF Special Operations, USA SF.

Vanessa S, aren't you the pottymouth? Such language cheapens your argument (if you have one) and futhermore it cheapens YOU.

Facts are facts and the fact is that recruits ARE fatter and in poorer physical condition than in the past. Your sister and everyone else who is in the military knew what the deal was going in and so I'm not seeing where they have any complaint coming.

I served at a time before training standards were eased because of lard butts (there wern't all that many), I knew what the deal was going in and I didn't and don't have any complaints coming.

I find it amazing, truly amazing that people here are criticizing the Army for revamping their training methods. Lets take a look at the current generation, first and foremost, and their parents. I was unfortunate enough to land on recruiting duty for a few years, and the lack of physical conditioning on the kids coming in is terrible. Our recruiting station did what they could, we did physical training with them 3 nights a week, some we knew needed more, so they got more training. The truth is there is only so much you can do with a kid before he/she leaves for basic training. No matter the service, there are the same issues going on in all of them, the Army is the largest branch, so its the most visible.

Yes, kids are more out of shape than they were even 10 years ago (Ive been in the Army for just over 20). I see it with new Privates coming in right out of Basic and AIT. Their fitness levels are not where they need them to be. The command I am in now has given us a lot of leeway on how we do Physical Training. I am looking into many of the methods discussed in the article, because the wars we fight now are different than they used to be. There is no need to run 8 miles. We dont run 8 miles in combat. Short sprints, strengthening the core body muscles, twisting, turning, lifting. These are the skills that are needed now. We are able to concentrate on these exercises, getting our Soldiers in shape to survive in a combat environment. Less emphasis needs to be placed on the Army Physical Fitness Test until it is revamped. The 2 minutes of pushups, 2 minutes of situps and the 2 mile run do very little to actually evaluate the Soldiers fitness level. I applaud the Army for the willingness to change. Just because its 'the way we have always done it', does not mean its the right way.

Is this actual basic training or prebasic training fitness company (aka fatboy program)? When I went in back in the 90s if you were out of shape you first went FITCO or fitness company for about 3-5 weeks until you were in shape enough to go to basic training. I wonder if this is the same thing they've been doing all along.

Ok, just to clarrify, Ft Jackson was always for the National Guardist. If you were Army, you went someplace like Ft Dix (fun in the Pine Barrons, 34° with 3 ft of snow get up and go to PT now!!...too bad it closed), Ft Leonard Wood (lost in the woods, Mo?...gotta love running those mountain trails), and if you were special enough, Ft. Benning Ga (gotta love those snakes, fun in the swamps, oh, oh...not to mention the 100° with 86% humidity temps). That's Army.

Training standars are always going to change, now matter what the thoughts on them are. The Army is trying to fight a kind of war that is not war. The fact is, we do not raise our children to "go outside and play" as was done with my generation. Kids don't get out and run, jump, or do the things we did (growing up on the Jersey Shore, it was tent hopping for me). Schools doing away with Gym classes did not help, being active should be part of every American's lives and not teaching that in schools just farthers the idea that we need bigger brains then bodies. We need balance, not bigger brains or bigger bodies. Back to the topic at hand...

I would figure that newer soldiers would just hold up thier stress cards and say "I can't fight right now, you're stressing me" to the enemy figuring that will make them stop shooting, Tom. Remembering that every command has it's trainning standard, we had to do 5 pullups before going into the mess hall, soda and things like that were privilages that you hadn't earned yet, and there wasn't quite that much fried food on the menu. I remember alot of starches, but not much that was fried (or at least not much that we were allowed to touch). Part of the training that we recieved when I went through basic was in fitness and nutrition. Basically, I was taught how to and what to eat (yes, that includes during Survival training when they teach you about bark teasand stuff). This training was given at most post (Ft Jackson might have been the exception, even back in the late '80s) that I know of, so as to help soldiers get and stay fit not just through exercise, but through diet as well. This standard might have changed, it's been more then 20 years and I've been out for a while now. You might be able to answer that question better then I Govt_Issue. For the exercise part; Push ups, Sit ups, and Running may make for the average infantry person's standard fitness, but isn't just infantry anymore. Combat troops don't make up the bulk of the Army anymore, we use more technology then we do brunt anymore. Instead of picking up a weapon and running with it, we load missiles and drive the truck away from our AO (that's Area of Operations for you civilian types). We are Air Mobile as opposed to marching into battle, which means we don't have to have the strength and speed to run the long distances anymore. Only the fiercness out of the gate because you don't have to carry the man next to you long distances to get to the HUMVEE or the LZ anymore. Warfare isn't fought like it was back in the day.

Training standards need to change. While I'm not saying we should train with Pilates, the best bet would be to train like a football player. This would give you that explosive fieceness from the gate, while giving you the endurance to make it through the long run of a 3 day fight.

JD, you do make some good points, but anymore, we are seeing the non-combat arms guys doing quite a bit of the fighting. Its not just the infantry, field artillery and scouts being mobile pop up targets, but almost every specialty in the Army has to prepare the same way. I was just as skeptical as some people on this board...I will admit that. The pillates and yoga crap was not going to help my Soldiers get ready for combat. Then we had a trainer come in and show us the exercises they were talking about. Concentrating, much like the change in football training, on fast twitch muscle exercises. Sprinting short distances, moving, lifting in short explosive movements. Concentrating on strengthening the core of your body. What we have found is less injuries (6 months in to our program, injuries were 1/2 what they were the previous 6 months), stronger Soldiers, and improved Physical Fitness scores, even though we didnt do alot of pushups or situps. Overall, my Soldiers were better prepared to deploy. People can laugh all they want about this program, but it works.

The Army has been in need of an overhaul for decades. The old exercises do more harm than good.

Look at old Army vets, they may be strong, but they are broken. Bad knees, bad backs.

Much better ways out there then situps and running.

Running in formation? Moronic.

I agree with your statement. I was in the Army in the late eighties and the number one injury was ankle injuries from the crappy combat boots we had to wear when the CO was trying to be hardcore or when we humped 80-100Ib rucksacks during field training.

Tired,

The Army revised the PT manual over 20 years ago, eliminating poorly-designed exercises that fractured bones and wore down cartilege. There's always room for improvement, though.

So the military is so bigoted, illogical, and downright dumb, that they would rather recruit unfit, unqualified, poorly educated heterosexuals (not all are of course), than extremely fit, well qualified, highly educated homosexuals (not all are of course), to protect and defend America and its citizens? Just shows you how moronic and pathetic bigots are.

Govt_Issue ...

I applaud the Army for the willingness to change. Just because its 'the way we have always done it', does not mean its the right way.

Exactly! And that hasn't been the "right way" for a long time. I never was able to relate the ARPT skills to ANYTHING I did in the real world. I wish those changes had been in 20 years ago, I probably wouldn't have some of the problems I do now. The research on the "new" program sounds very promising -- I just hope the entrenched commanders accept it as well.

To JD --

While I agree with many of your points as well (football training is an interesting idea, for example), I do have to take issue with this statement:

Ok, just to clarrify, Ft Jackson was always for the National Guardist. If you were Army, you went someplace like Ft Dix

Ft. Jackson has NOT always been for the National Guardist ... I was RA and sent to basic training there.

Yoga does build strength. One of the strongest, most fit guys I ever met was a special forces guy who went on his own to top level yoga classes. Believe me, those will kick your behind. I've done them.

But kids now are in lousy shape. All these overprotective parents scaring their kids into not playing outside, or riding bikes, or anything else.

An amusing incident last night at the gym. I was doing pullups with 50 lbs on a weight belt and this football kid comes next and says, "You makin' me look like a b__ch." I didn't make it worse by telling him I was 53.

Hey Vanessa S. I notice your all pissed about our remarks, but could not help but notice you said your sister just finished. Why not you? I severed in the Gulf War and could not agree more with dnimerick remarks more! The military needs to get up to date on all physical programs.

Anything to help all of our military! God Bless America!

Hey parents - Get the forks out of your kids' mouths; insist that they join an extracurricular activity that involves sports and their participation therein; TURN OFF the damn video games after an hour; and STOP giving them junk food.

It is scary that our kids are too fat.

Hey parents - Get the forks out of your kids' mouths; insist that they join an extracurricular activity that involves sports and their participation therein; TURN OFF the damn video games after an hour; and STOP giving them junk food.

It is scary that our kids are too fat.

Vanessa,

Geesh, take a chill pill, no one is attacking YOU. Freedom of speech, remember? Many are going to see this in all kinds of light. It's a big issue, modern day obesity and going into recruitment.

Elaine: I thought I understood the story at issue - overweight, soft-bodied recruits. Thanks for twisting it into the story that it should have been ! (sarcasm)

You are welcome Nan. See also comment in response to Kevin's good comment below. Now do you understand? I thought so. Have a good evening, Nan.

stop making everything about the effing deficit. public health and military readiness are serious problems and require serious people to solve them. anyone using buzzwords like 'socialist' without regard for whether they truly apply is not serious and definitely not fit for the task of resolving our problems.

Elaine: a post # for Kevin would help locate the remark. I,m not going expend any amount of time looking for it. Just isn't that important to me if he is agreeing with you and your off topic remarks.

Thanks jlb

jib- sorry the context of our destruction offends your sense of fair play...too bad!

Maybe obsticle courses on computer prepare them to fly drone better than push ups and sit ups and running.

Who would have guessed that geeks may be our most effect warriors?

At 55 I'm in better shape than a lot of 20 somethings - and I'm a woman!

Proamerica,

I have seen 70 year olds that were in better overall physical condition than many trainees that go off to basic training. Even with your bad back, if the spinal fusion, made it strong and stable, it would be good enough for training.

Sir, what we have been seeing in the Army, at least since I entered in '89 is really the legacy of junk food, a sedentary indoor life style, and I have heard many of these kids say that "the cut P.E. class, did not have to take P.E., or took ping pong or croquet as P.E, in the Spring."

There is no doubt at all in my mind that these kids have some real adaptations to make before they can chase down Taliban men from 15 to 90 in Afgan. that live at altitutudes of over 5,000 ft. and can run up hills and negotiate some terrain - that we used to call "bouldering" in my undergrad college days.

Of course, the majority of our fine young men and women that graduate from Army Basic Training can train up real fast to that kind of etiology of war.

Sir, in your day, the school lunches that you bought in the school cafeteria or that your Mom made consisted of real food with real nutrition value. You were strong then weren't you and you did not take any "supplemental multivitamins did you?"

When these kids get to basis training and, if you will, "start going thru sugar and fat withdrawal they get sometimes downright sick."

Unfortunately, Ali Baba is lean and mean and raised tough and is not overweight unless he gets rich. Then the Muslim diet that permits Baklava (very rich and tasty and natural) does not permit the mountains of cheap high fructose corn syurp, salts, and fats that too many American kids are being poisoned with. In that part of the world processed foods are at a minimum and so are empty calories from alcohol. They don't eat much meat but they like dairy products (yoghurt w/o sugars and milk, vegetables, lots of beans, and rice. They drink tea, and water at room tem. with no ice as ice causes your body to expend energy to adjust to it in the heat.

The problem is very bad and the Army does not even allow the morbidly obese to even enter.

Blue,

I would not doubt that at all. Some of the young men and women that this editorial addresses probably could count the numbers of decent meals that they have consumed on both hands.

It is really bad.

When Iraqis joke at what fat slobs Americans are, you must remember that they have not seen the really heavy 20 year olds with bad weight bearing joints, slipped discs, and that must use shoes from Walmart w/velcro. The Muslims would eat these people up like a pack of hungry feral dogs eating rare roast beef.

V/r,

LTC Rattus, USA, ret.

At 55 I'm in better shape than a lot of 20 somethings - and I'm a woman!

BlueinOK,

And I have no doubt that you are telling the absolute truth. I see "buff" 50 year olds all the time at the gym both male and female. There is no excuse for this lowering of the fitness standard in the military. I say throw em all out and hire some buff unemployed 50 year olds instead.

Sir, what we have been seeing in the Army, at least since I entered in '89 is really the legacy of junk food, a sedentary indoor life style, and I have heard many of these kids say that "the cut P.E. class, did not have to take P.E., or took ping pong or croquet as P.E, in the Spring."

rattus,

That may be true of the recruits but not the standards. No, political correctness and feminism did this to the military. Political correctness is the biggest enemy this country has ever faced. It destroys from within.

Notice how firefighters and cops are really fat to now?

I am familiar with PC. Some call it etiquette.

However, lowering the standards as they apparently have in this case is "very incorrect" in every regard.

I was in the Army from '89 to '09 and I have seen a lot of this kind of crap. I have also seen many "generally unfit althogh not morbidly obese Soldiers evac. to GE "with Heat stroke." My medics were giving Soldiers with hypokalemia (low potassium that one sweats and pees out) full saline drips to get them back working on the vehicles.

These lifelong "fatties" (not PC) just don't have a chance and they will get others killed or removed from their posts in order to render them care,

I am glad I am retired. Junk food and a sedentary life style.

Establish a prior-to-basic slimming down camp; make the boots either extend for this slimming process or go out on a general discharge (no benefits) and start their service time when they attain the physical level and weight the service needs. Make them sign a certificate that they know and understand what is expected of them as a condition of acceptance.

rattus68,

Agreed. I almost laughed as we have been in the mountains for years (consecutive tours) conducting US Military Asymmetric Mountain Warfare. We live with them (we live in the mountains around their villages), eat what they do (most of us got amoebic dysentery the first year here), etc. we are skinny like they are (just like the Iraqis, previously consecutive tours, years). When the 28 year old got here to replace a 30 year old (Killed In Action), we thought he was fat just like when we go to Kabul or Kandahar AFB.

The Muslims would eat these people up like a pack of hungry feral dogs eating rare roast beef.

Maybe we should advertise that they are pork. They would be running just to avoid being touched by them.

LTC Rattus, USA, ret.

Careful they might recall you to Active Duty.

serious - Maybe obsticle courses on computer prepare them to fly drone better than push ups and sit ups and running. Who would have guessed that geeks may be our most effect warriors?

The drones are not as effective as the USAF would like you to think, as the high velocity (+100 nautical miles per hour) wind vortexes cause the drone missiles to go off course beyone the limited course correction jets (Hellfire missile) and aircraft into the faces of the mountains. And who do you think does intelligence verification before each missile is fired and target damage assessments afterwards, can you say US Military Ground Combat Forces (Special Warfare).

add to post#3.10

rattus68,

Most of these people are too young to know what a RATT Rig was. Like what we used when I was with the Intermediate Range Nuclear Forces Europe. I was with the INF before my functional area was switched after becoming Middle East Qualified and sent as US Military Training Teams to Iraq (Iran Iraq Wars) and Pakistan (USSR 40th Army Occupation).

Anyone notice that post posting are from people who grew up OUTSIDE!

I'm 42 and in better condition then most X-Box generation kids. Why? My folks made me go outside everyday and I wanted too. We grew up running, playing ball and just having fun with our friends. Our folks did not want or let you stay home! So we are and will be in good shape. We were breed that way.

Stay young all!

I agree, fighting with one hand tied behind your is the best way to lose a fight!

Amen brother, It is very unfortunate the ROE that we have to deal with. It is a politicians battle. We are their pawns. As far as the PT goes, the army is downsizing, why are we loosening the standards? it makes no sense to me. I remember a cadence that said "if you wanna be a soldier you gotta be thin.." not in todays army. I'd hate to have to carry a fatbody out of the battlefield. I guess i needed to vent that one out too.

Yeah--- Still remember carrying another marine 6 to 7 miles to an Lz.
Glad, Im old, don't want to have to watch this.

I would not say that we wimped out in Somalia. I was there with the 160th SOAR and watched a great number of my ranger buddies move farther and faster than any of the modern army soldiers. I also worked with Mac in Afghanistan. He was right, but killing everyone is not the answer, WIAPilot. Politicians do need to stay out of war, but we need to use our heads before our guns. I live with the nightmares of 3 1/2 years of war for a 14 year career. We, as parents, need to get our kids off the video games and send them outside like our parents did. The younger generation, in and out of the military, are now the "disgusting fatbodies." Any exersice program, Marine, Ranger, even yoga and pilates, is better than nothing at all.

NSDQ, we was a different breed than the FT Jackson recruits mentioned in the story. The "Task Force" (telling my age) had PT standards that exceeded the army standards, I am told by my friends ther the regiment is still hanging in there. Remember the names on that monument they were our motivation.

To the people that complaining about the ROE. I understand your concern for our troops but in all due respect i do not think you under stand that this is not WW2,in WW2 we knew who we were fighting it was the hole country in these wars we are fighting terrorist so if you go over there and shoot every one that looks at you funny then you are not fighting the war that the US claims it is fighting.We are not suppose to be there to kill every bad guy and take over the country we are there to kill TERRORIST and hold the locals hands long enough for them to do the job them selves.

carl-2016429 - To the people that complaining about the ROE.

After years here (consecutive tours) we used to be able to target the people planting the IEDs with two M21s/M25s on each and two shooting at the IED at Night.

Now we cannot shoot until shot.

The ROEs are part of the UN Conventional Rules of Warfare as negotiated by President Obama's Political Appointees Eikenberry and Holbrooke with the United Nations and President Karzai. The US Military (Theater Commander) had no input. When General McKiernan complained, FIRED; when General McChrystal complained, FIRED. So now General Petraeus is attempting to look for loop holes.

August 2009, President Obama sent thousands of US Civilians here, including ambulance chasers that will prosecute us (US Military) under the Four Legal Authorities Over the US Military: UN Conventional Rules of Warfare, Local Laws (Koran (Quran), Hadith Laws, Fiqh Laws, Sharia Laws, Afghan Tribal Laws, etc.), US Civil Laws, and UCMJ (Fraternization, Adultery, Fornication, etc.). And the Political Appointees sent here will throw US Military under the bus if "politically expedient" by giving us to the Afghans for prosecution.

You cannot defend stupid. Especially attempting to fight a Asymmetric War with Conventional Warfare Rules (known Historical Failure).

The UN Conventional Rules of Warfare term Conventional came from the 1907 Hague Convention and the 1949 Geneva Convention. This was an attempt to make "War Civilized".

games might help drone operators...

@ Johnny Alford ... exactly what i was thinking... how is not being able to do push ups going to help in a war environment? so much for carrying your buddy out of harms way... will be lucky if you can get ourself out....

Pray for them all !

david-475776#4.8:

I have no need to complain about Conventional Warfare: need a new spin on it. There is nothing civilized about warfare. The citizens that the NATO International forces are trying to help in Afghanistan are disadvantaged. And, limited in resources. Perhaps NATO should provide support for the opposing sides to meet at an area where they can fight it out. The NATO International forces can watch by remote and keep score.

There are some holidays on the horizon,

Ann Geeck

15 SEPTEMBER 2010

david-475776:

Russia has now changed the "Oriental Policy" of playing "Rugby" to "Chess" in Iran, Russia is taking back their spent rods. You must already know about this. Could be a good offer in Afghanistan as in Iran. I want those manpads etc. from where ever those evil weapons came from, need to be exchanged and destroyed.

So many poor people in Afghanistan.

Why are you so disrespectful to soldiers who died for you? Oh yeah, you are listed under the 10% of American trash they knew they were protecting when they went to war.

Yes they did. Even the reserve components now deploy every three years. The Army pay is a lot better than flipping burgers, but the chance of going to Afganistan or even Iraq are pretty good as the Army exists to deloy and fight and so many Army jobs in the enlisted ranks have been outsourced to KBR, Halliburton and others and it is not really dangerous stuff.

Wheel vehicle mechanics and others retire from the Army every day and get jobs with Raytheon, KBR, and the rest of them that pay super well.

Some kids just don't want to get caught up in the nation's wars and because the forces are all volunteers they do not have to.

If they started drafting or conscripting them now to fight in Afganistan, Iraq, or Pakistan......just how many riots do you think that there might be?

Late folks--got to walk.

You imply American youth won't answer the call..is Hanoi Jane off the reservation again? Learn history. The North Vietnamese agree the so-called peace movement fostered by international communism cost us a war we'd won.

tom343

We wasted 56,000 American soldiers in Vietnam fighting a war that never could be won. Read Sun Tzu and you will understand that unless you control the battlefield you have lost the war.

Afghanistan is even worse because it is a narco-state even more than a country infiltrated by religious terrorists. And our 60,000 additional "combat troops" is like trying to pee on a forest fire.

We need to seal the borders so that the Russian money for heroin stops financing the war. (Yes, Russia consumes more Afghan heroin than we do.)

We need to disarm all of the Afghans since only 10% of them can read and those with weapons are more likely to be drug dealers or crooks than police or soldiers. (Although many of the police are also drug dealers or crooks.)

However, we need a 300,000 person peacekeeping force to come into Afghanistan to do the above as well as build roads and factories and mines and schools.

And since we CAN'T do that, we need to turn the country over to China and let them do it.

It will serve both countries right.

Ok, bringing up Veitnam is kinda a futile arguement because we have learned nothing in the years that lead up to and have passed that war. We did not learn from our own Revolutionary War that marching troops in does nothing against an enemy that knows were to hide in the tree line or within it's own populace. Politicians and the news media haven't learned that they do not belong in the business of war. And lastly (and you are right about this), if a population desires peace as opposed to war then the war will be lost because of lack of support from home.

We need to do one of two things; 1. take the leash off the dog and let it do it's job, or 2. get China on the phone and say "hey, do you guys think you can handle this?". One way or the other, what we are doing is ineffective and stupid. Sh_t or get off the pot already.

Prosecuting soldiers so you can have a humane war is like gardening in the sahara. War is not humane, it's war.

could not possibly agree with you more!!!! well stated! began basic in ft benning doing 23 pu / 34 su / 2 mile 16 min.....2 years later 105 pu / 95 su / 2 mile 11:30 min....you are right on and people need to get with it soldiers defend this nation and it is not supposed to be easy...glory and being fit has a price and that price is hard work and some puking :)

Heh, says the girl who "ran" 2 miles in 27 minutes. Girl, you can walk two miles in 27 minutes. Did you jog? 0 pushups. 31 situps.

You were in horrendous shape.

I agree 100%,its about the same standards for wildland firefighter Hotshot crews (of which im apart of) the requirement is to be able to do 10 pullups 45 pushups 60 situps and do a fast paced 50 pound pack walk of 3 miles within 45 minutes and then a 2 mile run within 18 minutes.during the fire season we hike for miles patroling for fires in 100 degree heat.Even with that standard of training people still cant handle being out there in ruff conditions and fall out do to exauhstion,dehydration or both,to lower thoughs standards could cost poeple their lives.

I remember puking on the run of a PT Test in 2002, had pneumonia, and still passed with a 12:36 (maxed it). I ended up in the TMC for a few hours the next morning, but an asthma inhaler and immunoglobulin shot later I was given my RTD. There again, at six foot and 189 pounds I was considered pretty big by the Army standard (why tape a guy with a 32 inch waist and a 46 inch chest, I am obviously going to pass body fat).

It is not their physical conditioning that we need to worry about, these kids are not mentally capable of performing the way we did even a decade ago. Of course, we had the advantage of still having guys who were in Nam for 1SG's and SGM's. We also had the advantage of our Drill's throwing coffee mugs at us while we held up the table with one hand and ate with the other. Now they cannot even use harsh language. What is coddling these kids teaching them about the stress of combat?

Never saw boot camp, went right from a 10-week school to the fleet, served in forces afloat successfully, made rate, made NCO (E5) in reserves, got honorable discharge with recommendation for re-enlistment 2 times. Boot camp seems a waste of time.

I was there in 96 myself and puked once or twice on that run. We were harrassed for the don't ask don't tell era. Then came the stress cards and now pilates?? I'm glad I ETS when I did. At least there are still strong combat soldiers so when they get over there they can erase what they learned and teach them how to survive.

"tom343

Never saw boot camp, went right from a 10-week school to the fleet, served in forces afloat successfully, made rate, made NCO (E5) in reserves, got honorable discharge with recommendation for re-enlistment 2 times. Boot camp seems a waste of time."

Awesomely useless post here Tom - trainig IS needed for people THAT ACTUALLY FIGHT - idiot.

This has nothing to with being Gay or straight... Or being fat. This gets down to the Army having to pay for soilders and there disabilties. They are tired of having to pay out for damages they cause with bad management of PT. More often then not the damaged recruits are'nt even over weight. Read the statistics before you comment. There is nothing worse than a uneducated, has been soilder talking out the side of his mouth about someting he knows little about.

You get a big Hooo-Yahh for that. This is just another part of a trend that has been happening for years. First you can't yell cause you might hurt the little darlings feelings. Now they don't have to run cause dang-it, its just too hard! As much as these little tub of lards wish it to be, the Army is not as video game. They call it the service for a reason. Serve already and quit whinning.

Running until you puke does not toughen you up, it tears up your stomach lining. Doing sit-ups until you get muscle failure does make you stronger but at a terrible price; it causes intense internal scar tissue, which in turn severely limits your flexibility--which makes it extremely hard to win in hand-to-hand combat. Your spine is gonna collapse, and you're gonna lose about 10 inches in height, baby.

The complaints about Stress Cards: I'm sure that what you envision in this scenario is my wimpy generation abusing their "stress cards". From what I've heard, stress cards are meant to be used when the soldier is injured, and activity would aggravate it. It is meant to allow soldiers to listen to their bodies. There is a difference between hurt and injured. If you're hurt (oh no, shin splints), so what, get their fat asses out of bed. If their injured (inflamed cartilage, torn muscles), let them recuperate. Forcing an injured shoulder to continue training will not make them stronger, it will cripple them. Running until you puke, then running some more falls under this second category.

Also, are you guys eating right before you run? The only reasons you would be puking is if you are dehydrated, ate just beforehand, are sick, or completely out of shape. This is actually a serious question, I'm looking into joining the military after college.

If yoga is easy for you, you're either doing it wrong, or you are very strong. Yoga requires muscular endurance; the muscles you gain are leaner and and equivalent to anything gained by acting like a body-builder at the gym.

I am college varsity athlete; if you think 23 push-ups in 2 minutes is good for a girl, then you must have slacked in basic. You should be doing at least 28 in 30 seconds.

Why cut situps? Because they hurt you. The curling of the spine and stress placed on the hips and spinal base is damaging in the long run--it causes the jelly in between vertebrae to be squeezed out, which means your vertebrae will eventually start to grate right up on one another. The result is major medical bills for the Military and an army that must constantly replace failing soldiers.

Situps are also a very poorly designed exercise, crudely working the muscles targeted. It is easy to do it wrong, stretching out the neck and not fully engaging the abdomen--this type of compensation is very common when one is trying do this exercise very fast (as at a PT test--now you know why army guys are always so bull-necked and big stomached). Crunches and similar pilates/yoga exercises are much better, because they place your spine in a neutral position (removes stress). By neutralizing your spine, you also deactivate a bunch of muscles that would otherwise allow you to compensate for weak abdomenals--making this different exercise much more difficult and effective than sit-ups.

I have no argument with the fact that my generation is morbidly obese--it's a major health problem, and their lack of fitness is dragging down their more fit brothers and sisters. We cannot lower our standards of fitness, but harmful exercises do need to be replaced.

D3,

Did you read my post? I said I had pneumonia when I puked on the run. Also, the run is typically performed in the morning before breakfast, with the rest of the PT Test, during regular PT hours, so there is no food in the stomach.

As for your other concerns, you are grossly over-exaggerating the risks. If correct form is maintained the old exercises are rather safe. I do, however, agree that the sit up should be eliminated as crunches are a better test of the abdominal muscles and wind sprints are a better test of cardio fitness and explosiveness as well as a good test of the hip flexors. I have never actually seen a stress card, I do believe them to be an old wives tale, but I may be wrong. Having worked in the medical field I can assure you that we (on the Active Duty side) would not willingly and knowingly send an injured soldier into the field where they can further injure themselves and others. By the way, I was a Division I athlete, and basic still kicked my butt.

I was in the Navy, and I gotta admit when I went in in 2006 the standards were adequate, it did challenge me a little bit. But at that time, while it was challenging me, I saw plenty of recruits in my same division, that were dying of exhaustion by the mediocre excercises we were doing. Standards are dropping all around: Army with their yoga excercises, the Navy not but a year ago implemented elliptical instead of running in an air conditioned gym. We are running low on soldiers and we have to meet that need. The death toll is increasing daily and things aren't gettin' any better so we need to get these numbers up if we want to pull off another surge such as the one that was successful in Iraq. That's just the way it is.

DWalker, we were evidently "battle buddies" at one time since COL Hertling was my Commander as well in 'Arrowhead'. The sad thing about this is, since I am still serving and at a position where I am consulted I was part of LTG Hertling's survey on how to reinforce training of initial entry Soldiers...and no one I knew remotely suggested lowering the physical fitness requirement. For years we have known that Drill Sergeants can only do so much with what they're given, but no worries, we can finish what they started once we get them in a unit. I wish the DoD, and particularly the Army, would stop bringing in contract "experts" to teach us how to be better Soldiers.

Hey Redleg, wassup Battle!! Small world huh?? I was A co 1-32 Ar with the Arrowhead Bde @ Lewis from 1998-2000 all the way through the 1st Stryker transformation. I got the same survey so I was able to fill it out. You are right.. I used to blame the Drills until I served as a cadre in a OUST unit at Ft Knox and saw just how bad their hands were tied with the "their 1st unit will square them away when they get there" mentality pushed from the top.

DWalker makes some good points. I do, though. think the comparison of standards betwen the Army and USMC is a bit unfair. The Army has to keep far more soldiers rolling through the system to keep up with staffing requirements that result from not just two wars but also ongoing deployments worldwide. The Marines have a much, much smaller manpower need and so can be a bit more selective. It's the nature of the mission. However, units that approach the typical USMC direct action role (eg, Rangers, SF, even your bread and butter infantry, etc) maintain their own fitness standards.

Having been there myself, I do appreciate that pushups, situps, and a two mile run may not be what a soldier in combat needs. Even the USMC differs, they having decided that the pull-up is a better measure than the push up. Here nor there as we can debate that functional difference all night. What a fighter needs is endurance and flexibility to sustain movements and physical actions that resemble in no way a pushup or a situp. It's not the football jock or the bodybuilder that I want as my battle buddy. I want someone who can move quickly and with agility (though having the functional strength to carry the battle rattle - that's muscular endurance, not brute force). So anyway, pilates sounds soft (it's not), and just maybe it's something that actually better prepares our fighters to kill and survive.

It is unfortunate that the Army must bear the brunt of America's soft ways. They didn't create that. On the other hand, the Army may be giving that soft-body the only real shot he or she will ever have at transforming themselves mentally and physically for life. The downside is that the amount of time that the Army has to spend to correct and overcome the shortcomings of society in raising unfit children is less time that they have to spend on teaching those children how to make the enemy die for their cause.

Perhaps when we can finally look to the day when the optempo and mission requirements have lessened, the Army will be able to raise its standards and put more focus on the business of killing and spending less time on weaning Johnny from his McFlurry's and lattes. Until then, this issue isn't about the Army - it's about America's youth.

Beefy lines only have to run 20 or 30 yards.

Johnny Alford - Beefy lines only have to run 20 or 30 yards.

Exactly why they do not make it during our training and assessments as short term high intensity. Most of the tri athletes, marathon runners, etc. make it when the Football Stars do not.

Maybe some of us do not like seeing fat retards in the military.

And, don't live all that long.

'this We'll Defend"

Kevin, good comment. PC is destroying (has destroyed) America. The 60something flowerchildren and social(ist) engineers occupy the hill and their 40something follow-ons occupy downtown and all are leading America in the wrong direction with their lack of fiscal discipline, lack of good sense in matters of civic policy and overwhelmingly poor judgment. Vote out the incumbents in 2010 and 2012 and get some real leadership in power that the young recruits and career soldiers can relate to and respect.

Elaine,

The problem with your statement is that it's too polemical, and too many of your supposedly ideal republican leaders have never served in the military either, and wouldn't have any better ideas. They might try to sell themselves as the better alternative but they aren't any more versed with military life than democrats.

"I'm a Drill Sergeant in the Army..."

So why did you move?

I was in the Air Force from 77-97 and we didn't have any fitness program at all. You were just expected to be responsible and remain in shape on your own and it worked. Our fitness test consisted of being able to run 1 1/2 miles in 15min annually. Later it was changed to being able to ride a stationary bike (cycle ergometry) and someone would see if you had the desired heart rate as a result of riding the bike. Your heart rate determined pass or fail.

If the military was turning gay, they'd probably be in better shape.

That is a generalization, but I would agree. Gay people do eat well and exercise properly. In fact it was a Gay person that told me about the dangers of high fructose corn syurp that is pervasive in all of our prepared foods and is a prime ingredient in ALL cheap processed foods.

I believe gay has nothing to do with this.

The subject is fat, flab and flaccidity.

You might want to know that many football players play because they are gay and want to be around other muscular gay jocks.

You're right. At least they'd probably be able to do a Jane Fonda aerobic workout.

I think I'm going to quit reading these posts - the ignorance and homophobia are giving me a headache. Change happens whether you want it or not. Get over it.

Ander, I'm in Afghanistan and I found that hilarious, rofl. I'm showing it to my friends as I speak.

Kevin, Well said and I think I'm done with this as well. We don't need to start up on each other and the gay bashing.

I loved the various stories many had about personal war and survival. Thank you to those who served us without bias towards others. America thanks you for your time and things we will never really about you in war.

Amen.

Uhhuh---- Went through boot camp in 1959, the women in the Corps took care of business, or out they went.

Women's bodies are different from men's.

Why then don't they accept the different roles these differences point to?

I'm a woman and served in the AF about 15 yrs ago. I fully agree with most of what you guys are saying. I couldn't understand why we weren't expected to do as much physically as the men, except for maybe running the mile times. There are several areas that men are just stronger at, being men, but there's no reason a woman shouldn't be able to meet those standards, even if they're last in line but still make the required time. It bothered the hell out of me when we were told doing our push ups that the women should use their knees. I refused to, and did them just like the men did - the correct way.

I busted my ass to keep up and beat most of the men in my unit and succeeded, something I'm quite proud of, a goal I set for myself when I first joined. Along with also winning the top gun award for shooting, M-16, Grenade launcher and M-60. Total of 4 women and 50 men in my unit and I beat them all. And, that was both left and right handed except for the M-60... too many projectiles in my face. I was only 1 of about 5 people that received the sharp shooter award too - and won many bets against so called hunters that bragged how good they could shoot. Hell, they couldn't even get 20 out of the 30 required to pass. I made lots of money and won several cartons of smokes from my bets though!

Personally, I don't think women belong in the military if they can't do the basic physical fitness requirements. I was truly astounded at how many women did even know how to run, literally. They'd collapse after half way around the track, and the majority of them ended up in the infirmary for some stupid reason or another. I got thru basic and the police academy with stress fractured in both feet, but didn't complain - hurt like hell, but I survived.

I agree, I don't think women should be in the military unless they are nurses or doing something related to technology. And before anyone gets their panties in a bunch, I am a female. I don't care how strong I am, I'm 5' 2" and if my partner were a 6' male and he had been shot, there is no way in hell I could carry his weight and our bags weight. Women aren't meant to.

lmasure-2120214,

Agreed. Most of my "Lionesses" could beat the crap out of most US Military Conventional Warfare Forces; however, most were tri athletes. And no they do not look like USSR Gymnasts, she males. My current Operations Officer is a female, she was a subordinate Officer during the US Military Training Teams from Germany to Iraq during the Iran Iraq Wars. Because she go shot, so she did not accompany us to Pakistan (to train the Pro Western Afghan Muhajeen).

One of my younger cousins (female) just made it through training (after basic and what was called AIT), after I told her how to build up her upper arm strength. A few years from now more training and after assessments she might make it to us as long as she does not quit or get peered out (I think she is stubborn enough to make it, as to why I nominated her.). She routinely runs marathons and competed in one "Iron Man". Off the books I taught her how to fire high powered weapons, 7.62mm and .50 caliber and a little hand to hand combat (including Combat Knife), she was already belted in old school Jujutsu (break bones to disable attacker using attacker's own weight and momentum, definitely not the current way), most of us are trained the same way (old school Jujutsu, minus all the unnecessary movements, defensive, and old school Karate as offensive also minus all the unnecessary movements (Kata)). The ingrained mission for us is always to train the trainers that will train the trainers so we can return Stateside and eventually retire (again).

Bottomline: Mind over matter. It don't matter if you don't mind (physical and psychological pain, learned during USN BUD/S).

Did I say that? No I didn't. My point is that most of the time a woman will be shorter than a man and carrying someone taller than you is extremely difficult. Men are better with brute force, women are better shooters. It really just depends on the job. I think we would be better at being nurses or techies because we have small and steady hands and men usually don't. But you could just take it personal instead of actually thinking about it, but whatever.

I am not so sure of that. It could if the Democratic base vote. There are more of them now than conservatives now since the Middle Class got outsourced. Oh, and who are all of the "cat private E-1 trainees going to vote for?" I say, they will vote for the party that gives out the most freebies, foodstamps, energy drinks, and :Litlle Debbie Cup Cakes and Hostess Twinkies." That sh!t should be banned from AFEES and Navy Exchanges and commissaries.

yeah, in just a year and a half he made all the recruits for the military fat and unfit.

All Bush did was choke on a pretzel.

"62 Days till the ASS POUNDING"

I accept that you may be gay but I'm not sure what that has to do with this thread.

rattus68,

General McChrystal tried to get the Burger King, Starbucks, Pizzia Joints, etc. kicked out of here. Look what that got him. Complaints thru the US Civilian Chain of Command to the President of the US. With the US Civilians here turning this place into their own Disneyland Resort and Spa (no Afghans nor US Military allowed). People wonder about President Karzai's corruption, what a f**king joke going after the nickel and dime crook, versus those using Afghan Development money for building their Disneyland Resort and Spa (Multiple Millions).

McChrystal tried to get the fast food (you forgot TGI Fridays) out because he flet they were taking up space in his logistics train. Fair point. Keep in mind, though, that the US fast food vendors are there on contract and are self-supporting. Afg development money is not being used to build the fast food joints nor a resort and spa (I get your sarcasm but it doesn't work if it's not informed). Having said that, and having been there, I can't tell you how nice it is to get a small slice of Americana in a war zone - it is a HUGE morale-booster and I think that's why McChrystal had to reverse himself.

Good answer get them started before they go. Then keep standards up. They are gonna need it right. Nobodys going to be able to haul them out nor are they gonna make it.

If you nip it in the bud in the beginning, the problem doesn't continue to propgate. MEPS does nothing remotely close to a fitness test. MEPCOM should develop an all service inclusive test which must be passed prior to oath of enlistment be allowed to be taken. And although not all troops will be needing it, a water proficiency test should be administered as well.

MEPS Exams as they are, pretty much just check to see if a recruit is that breathing and tickrer OK, and that they have vision and hearing. Food tolerances and ortho exams count for little. Even with all that said, there are very few conditions that are not waiverable.

A fitness test would in a sense combine many of these findings or lack there-off. This would take the burden off the gainin service/unit from javing to spend extra time on troops that are not able to make the cut.

Tacoma WA - Perhaps the Armed Forces should consider opening up storefront commercial gyms, civilians get to pay, otherwise free for Active Duty & Retired, and those considering enlistment.

Glad you got in. However, do you know where the money would come from for the commercial gyms? Our bullets, beans, toilet paper, etc., especially with the current Defense Budget Cuts (April 2009, and the current 2010 Defense Budget, reason why they cut Joint Forces Command. 5000 Jobs (mostly US Civilians)). This is the same crapola that occurred after Vietnam with the VolAr (Volunteer Army), yes, I witnessed the start of this. And now I see this same mistake happening all over again. Wait till the Reduction In Forces (RIFs) occur with many being QMPed (kicked out, Qualitative Management Program) from the US Military again.

We (US Military) need to get rid of all the US Civilians in the US Military, that would get rid of 50% or more of the US Military Defense Budget. Let us (US Military) do the job "In House" again cheaper. This is also an incentive to learn skills by joining the US Military, like before in Communications, Electronics, Maintenance, Logistics, Transportation, Supply, VIP Protection, Food Service, Laundry Services, etc..

Austin, you might be interested to know that LTG Hertling is the opposite of the officers you address here (and there are plenty of them, admittedly). Ten years ago when he was my Bde Cdr he was tall, lean and would run most of us into the ground. All the more reason why I'm disappointed that he would have anything to do with lowering a time-tested, proven standard.

The word is ridiculous.

I happen to run into LTG Hertling (my old Bde Cdr) last year, and simply put, what Redleg said is dead on. The guy is a stud.. period. Back then he could out PT over half the Brigade and to have seen him last year he looks like he still could.

I can only believe that he put up one hell of va fight against lowering anything, and what you and the rest of us are reading is a man following orders after the decision was made and executing said orders..Yup, even LTG's have a boss some where.

I can only believe that he put up one hell of va fight against lowering anything, and what you and the rest of us are reading is a man following orders after the decision was made and executing said orders..Yup, even LTG's have a boss some where.

Dwalker,

I'm not buying your explanation. If this guy was so gung-ho and really cared about the country he would have resigned rather than follow them orders. No, it sounds like he was all to willing to tow the line and that makes him a coward to boot!

If some O-7 or above sees what's coming down from Foggy Bottom is compromising the service, isn't it his duty (remember duty, honor, country) to do a Billy Mitchell if that is what it takes to remedy the problem? Career isn't a national goal. The best Armed Forces is. If worse comes to worse, SAIC will always hire you.

It's not an order to lower the standards, it's an order to fill the required numbers.

Someone in this LTG's position has to take the soldiers that he gets and mold them into the soldiers he needs.

notanymore,

See what happened here when General McKiernan voiced his opinon (Fired). Ok, how about when General McChrystal voiced his opinon (Fired). So you think it is any less for a lower grade LTG.

Most do not realize that an Officers Commission is from Congress, as the US Citizen's Representative on the Battlefield. And to report to US Citizens any US Military or Political actions that might adversely affect the US Citizens of the US Military as their Representatives.

add to post #19.7.

This is what General McKiernan did, told the Politicians that he needed more US Military, Fired, AFTER telling the Politicians and then resorting to going Public (CBS).

This is what General McChrystal did, told the Politicians about their stupid mistakes, getting US Military killed, Fired, AFTER telling the Politicians and then resorting to going Public (Rolling Stone).

See what happened here when General McKiernan voiced his opinon (Fired). Ok, how about when General McChrystal voiced his opinon (Fired). So you think it is any less for a lower grade LTG.

David,

So what? I would have resigned and then went public with the matter. I would have resigned and went straight to 60 mins. This coward and sellout of a LTG had absolutely nothing to lose by balking. His pension benefits are already set in stone so what does he have to lose? An LTG gets thousands a month in pension and they couldn't touch one penny of that at this point. Not to mention that as a LTG there is lot more money waiting for him from th private sector. No, he acted like a coward and really doesn't give a damn about the country and it's preparedness for war.

Political Correctness will conquer us.

PC has already conquered us..

The Fox Network has already conquered us. We're now afraid of our own shadows; convinced that liberals are hiding in the wings wanting to sodomize cowboys and that the UN is staging an invasion force in Mexico with plans to rape and pillage its way through Arizona.

Top,

It is very depressing to read this article. Just the terrain and the heat with no ruck, water, food, ammo, body armor, weapon, commo gear. They just won't be able to do it.

It is so very sad. Isn't it?

Ret Master Sergeant Michael Winstead, rattus68,

Don't you just love the Modern US Military were US Civilian Contractors telling the US Military needs and requirements. (A lot of sarcasm intended).

Master Sargeant, etc.-

I think it could be a good thing to revise the boot camp programs, however I also think that a kid planning on going into the military should know/be told that they need to get in shape before showing up too. I like the P90X type of training (w/ plyometrics, yoga, kenpo, lifting, stretching) and have seen how these types of exercises can rebuild you. I'm not saying that they shouldn't run, do obstacle courses, etc. but it could enhance the program. I also think that the military needs to move further into mixed martial arts training as you never know who you'll fight or what they know. Know how the body works and how to break it from every angle. As scary as it is, maybe they need to set up powderpuff pre-bootcamp programs. If you take the pretest and fail, you go to fat camp and stop interrupting the training of everyone else.

On the training front, I've heard that grenade training has "transformed" into pull the pin and drop it over a wall rather than actually throwing it. What are they expecting the recruits to do if in a theatre? Maybe I'm wrong but I guess all of the enhanced training is now kept to the specialty training for the various units (airborne, berets, seals, etc.).

It all makes me think of Drudge's summer vacation comparison photos from yesterday: Our President riding on a girl's bike vs. Putin holding a rifle while in reflective protective gear- looked like he was hunting in a dangerous location. Don't worry, we'll bring the course down to your abilities and not expect more from you vs. pulverize them and ask questions later. Yikes. I know Vlad likes to walk around without his shirt to show his power, what do you think the world thinks of our leader?

What do you think they thought of our last leader (if that's what you want to call him)?

Master Sergeant,

There is nothing worse in this world then CIVILIANS giving instructions on how recruits need special physical fitness needs and bulsh*t streching/ yoga. We need to let our senior NCO's who do the training give the inputs and run basic training. I feel your pain in the worst way.

Respectfully,

Chief

You go to boot camp in the Corps, bring your sweat band with you.
Get with the program, or expect to spend some time in the special training platoons.
You do not, want to spnd time in the special training, platoons.
The only thing, that got me through boot camp, was the thought of spending time, in the special training platoon.

They can be discharged from the Marine Corps for not meeting PULHES and still give the Army a try.

PULHES was originally designed to address acute duty limiting conditions. And it worked for a while. It never designed to place permanant duty limiting (or eliminating) conditions. It was adapted to each services needs as they each pertinent. Profiling conditions these days are shaky at best.

Johnny Alford,

Back in my day, the US Army equivalent was the "Motivation Platoons". Someplace you really did not want to end up at. Every morning they would be low crawling over the gravel performing "Police Call" (picking up cigarette butts with their teeth), the sharp big rocks turned into small sharp gravel by those at Leavenworth Disciplinary Barracks. I got told that if anyone in my Platoon (194 "cruits") failed that is where I would end up. Fortunely, after one failed I just ended up doing pushups with my duffle bag on my back from morning till sunset before I got sent to AIT. During one of the observations across the street from the "Motivation Platoon", they lived in quonset huts, we saw a Drill Sergeant punch out a "cruit" for refusing to pick up cigarette butts with his teeth, the stupid cruit swung at the Drill Sergeant. The Drill Sergeants were rewarded for tours at Vietnam as Special Forces. He punched out the "cruit" and the "cruit" was picked up by the meat wagon (ambulance) with a broken arm. We used to play "Combat Football", the rule was no rules, with the meat wagons parked near by.

Much later after Vietnam, College ROTC, as a US Military Officer, I attended the Semper Fi, Do or Die, USMC Force Recon before they became USMC MARSOC.

They can be discharged from the Marine Corps for not meeting PULHES and still give the Army a try.

Dear god, WHERE do you get your information? For starters, PULHES is the acronym used for enlistment standards and medical retention across the board. A so called perfect recruit will have 111111

Physical: Overall health

Upper: Upper Body, arms, elbows, shoulders, etc

Lower: Lower Body, mainly knees and ankles

Hearing: Self explanatory

Eyes: Vision, do you wear glasses, how is your eyesight

Syche (Psych) Have you went to counseling of any type

Anytime an applicant has ANY issue with these areas, they are given a number other than one, a two will usually require a waiver to enter the service, a three typically disqualifies the applicant, or cause for discharge. The only prior service personnel the Army will accept are those with acceptable discharge codes on their DD214 (discharge paperwork). If you have a three on your PULHES and are either discharged or rejected for military service, you cannot join any other branch.

It is a fact that the average person in the army is only slightly more in shape then those in the air force; which is by far the closest thing to civilian life as you can get. The army gets the best gear, the newest stuff and still can't fight their way out of a paper bag. When I was with the Marines (a real fighting force) in the infantry (1996 - 2004,) we had vietnam era rifles, equipment, and even ammunition from that era on occasion as well, but we always were the first ones in the fight, we would kick some tail, and then the lazy and pathetic army would show up and say "ok, we'll take over from here and occupy this spot."

The fact of the matter is that the army has not been an elite fighting force since WWI, and will never again attain that status as long as they allow the people the let in...kids with no skills, kids with no drive, and the only way they would ever have a chance at doing anything would be to join the army...even though the air force standards are more lax, you still have to be intelligent...no so for the army...they will take anybody unlike the Corps which is very selective and yet still manages to hit their recruiting quota almost every quarter.

Moral of the story...the "army" is pathetic.

i got your pathetic hanging pal, the army has to come in and stay for extended periods after the marines, the marines are sent in because they are idiots and will do anything they are told, as for intelligence, if your a rock you can be a marine

What's the minimum GT to join the marines again? Thought so, LoL.

Ok James,

Im not going to get into an argument here with one service is better than the other. I am curious about your 'facts'. Just because the barracks lawyer, or your squad leader tells you something, does NOT make it a fact. I really dont think, however, that you want to discuss enlistment standards and practices with me. I saw first hand how your beloved corps recruited, used the bait and switch, open contracts and flat out lies. The truth is that every service is going through many of the same issues. It is getting increasingly difficult to find qualified people to join the military.

Wrong. Yoga at an advanced stage is tough. However, these trainees are not doing advanced yoga. I guess you're right.

Agreed. America, it is not okay to be obese. Travel to any other country in the world and you will see that America is fat - the rest of the world is not.