Deemo,

It is impossible to "slap a little sense" into hoarders, they are beyond reason. A dear friend of mine has become a cat hoarder over the last ten years. He was a most fastidious person about his home, and his personal grooming---he now lives in filth, never bathes, and is bordering on being violent when I try to reason with him about his living conditions. I am in close contact with his sister, and she has given up on his listening to reason. We both expect him to be found dead amongst his filth.

My opinion---if cats were not kept as pets, they would be killed as pests. Akin to rats.

I will now go into my bomb shelter and await the assault.

You're a rather sick pup yourself, spike.

Good idea Deemo. I'll lock the door after you...

Only 3 minutes for the first assault! Faster than I thought possible!

Notice--no concern for my friend.

spike-322306 you are a dick

No problem as long as TAX dollars are not spent on animals instead of needy people! Some in USA have their priorities turned around.

#1.1 Spike: You & your friend's sister should contact adult protective services. As a former psychiatric nurse, I can tell you that your friend sounds like a classic schizophrenia case. Did this begin in late teens or 20's? Are there any more in his family who act this way? Schizophrenia is more prevalent in males than in females.

My cleaning gal & I have had extensive discussions about her mother-in-law & her 10 indoor dogs. She has called everyone she can think of & will not eat in her home anytime EVER. Even for the holidays. Her mother-in-law stays "just" within the letter of the law-animals are well fed, vetted, etc. I told her that if she can ever prove that she gets worse, then I will take control & get the animals out of the house & get her mother-in-law evaluated.

Hoaring IS a mental illness just like anorexia, cutting oneself, bulimia, etc. & needs professional care. Please call Adult Protective Services if you really ARE his friend! His bizarre behavior is a danger to him possibly & the diseases he can get also are a consideration.

Go PETA go. Kill all of those animals so they can't be abused.

NO, wait, blame it on Bush.

Spike, most if not all animals would revert to their animal instincts to survive if they weren't domesticated. would you agree? Dogs as well as cats, can be great friends and members of the family, but when left to fend by themselves, the pack mentality takes over.

On another note, i'm sorry to hear about your friend, and i hope he gets some professional help. if you'd like i can come over and try slapping some sense into him?

@Spike - You act like it's the fault of the cats that your friend has become a hoarder living in 'filth'. It isn't their fault, and I'm sure they're suffering a great deal more than your 'friend' in those conditions. You should call the local humane society and report him. They can get help for the animals and perhaps help for him as well.

Spike,

No attack, but cats are far less of a nuisanse than rodents and less likely to carry disease. They were domesticated because they could keep rodent populations at bay, thereby reducing the spread of disease.

This issue with your friend is unfortunate, however it is not the fault of the animal. I am not what would be described as acat person, but we have one as a pet and she is useful at keeping mice out and is easy to care for. Hey, but everyone has there likes and dislikes. I like dogs, but hate little yappy ones, and would just as soon dorop kick one that tries to nip at my ankles.

I have absolutely no problem with people having cats as pets, over the years I have had a couple of my own.

I DO have a problem with cats roaming at will. They spread disease, leave "land mines", leave their unpleasant "markings" everywhere, tear into the trash within minutes of placing at the curb for pick-up, screech at night, tear-up lawn furniture, and the worst thing they do is kill millions of birds annually.

If one wants a cat as a pet, keep them inside. Otherwise, they are a pest.

As far as my friend, the hoarder, goes, I do not feel that I can do anything without his family's approval. A rock and a hard place.

Spike-

I am glad you brought up the keep your cats indoors issue- not only are outdoor cats a nuisance to the neighbors and deadly to birds- it is also unhealthy and life threatening for the cat. There are cars, dogs, wild predators, diseases, parasites and malicious humans out doors that an indoor cat is protected from. Indoor cats are healthier and live longer than outdoor cats.

I am sorry and concerned about your friend- I urge you to contact the Humane Society, ASPCA or Animal Control- more and more they are focused on not only the animals' welfare (his situation definitely constitutes animal abuse and neglect), but also the human(s) involved. These agencies are able to work around uncooperative families and you can file an anonymous complaint. The ammonia in cat urine can cause life threatening conditions for humans- I cannot imagine that your friend is physically healthy, in addition to apparent mental health issues.

Ms.Mack,

Thank you. I am not a cat-hater. I look at my friend's obsession as akin to a dope addict---does one blame the person, or the dope? I despise the cats because they are the cause of the situation. Rational? Of course not. But that is the way it is.

The problem with my friend is one of those things that has many branches, and I am somewhat hog-tied. He is 76, and since I am not far behind him, I am just tired of the hassle. He is resistant to everything that interferes with his world. As I stated before--I am between the rock, and a hard place.

A rational person cannot deal with an irrational person--however much the TV talkers say that one can. They just hire a bunch of nurses and lawyers to solve their problems.

@ Tera. Maybe I am a bit "wacko". I spend over $200 a month in food and snacks, but it's worth every penny, especially when I know that these starving, abused and neglected aminals can now lead a normal, healthy and happy life. I may be "wacko" but there sure is a lot of love around here. :o)

i guess i am completely around the bend wacko. i am part of an animal rescue group that has saved dogs and cats from starvation, beatings, being shot and abandoned, having plastic bags burned into their flesh... you name it, ive seen it.

the whole line of thinking that we 'own' animals is wrong, wrong, WRONG. they are NOT PROPERTY for you to do what you want to them. they are living, breathing, feeling beings.

when people finally stop 'owing' animals, we will see the numbers of abuse plumet. of course there will always be the same sickos that hurt people AND animals, but i long for the day when the average person stops thinking of animals as disposable 'stuff'.

for the record: i have 2 dogs and 2 cats. nothing near a hoarder.

I hear you Tera. I guess I don't get the mentality.

I am currently looking for a border collie but they want $300 for a rescued one. Why would anyone pay that kind of money for a rescued dog (that probably has problems anyway) for a shelter dog? What is their justification? Is this supposed to be a money making project?

kestral, i disagree. they are property, and as such, need to be cared for and looked after for just that reason. When people argue they are not property, they can pass off the responsibility when ever they want since no one takes ownership.

itscolduphere - I feel so sorry for you. I suppose you would have been of the mind that slaves were "property" also.

And since simple math seems to be beyond you - there are costs involved with rescuing animals, hence the $300 charge. They must have all of their shots, be spayed/neutered and get a chip. Do the math...it adds up to about $300.

But the bottom line is - these are living beings, with more compassion and feeling than you will ever have. They deserve to have a safe existence - and if we could eliminate puppy mills entirely - we wouldn't have people feeling compelled to take in animals that will otherwise be killed.

d

Sherri - I don't agree with the amount (though we paid about that much for a resuce pup ourselves) Around here, you can't get a puppy from the shelter anymore (and ours is a no kill shelter) because the rescue groups take them. They often leave the harder to adopt older dogs behind...

Sheri, i actually work for a vet clinic. I know the costs. Vets will often volunteer their time for spaying and neutering these rescue dogs so it's just costs. The actual "cost" of the rescued dogs aren't anywhere near $300. You wouldn't believe the markup on vaccinations and medications when it comes to small animals.

we spend about 100 to 150 a month on cat food and that is just for two cats, thats because the older cat gets sick on cheap cat food probally made in china with cheap fillers and by products. animals are expensive with food and vet care. i think its inhumane to have a lot of animals you would have to forego veternarian care and feed them cheap unheathy food.

You animal people are absolutely NUTS! They don't have feelings they respond to training and rewards and feel hot, cold, pain, etc. but not emotion! Go find a human to help...they have real feelings.

Chief: And you know this how? Ever worked with people or animals? I have yet to meet a psychopathic or sciopathic dog, cat or horse-my animals of choice.

But based on what I read here, I know where to find the humans with those conditions.

BTW, why are you on this thread anyway?

Tera #2: Unless you have a bill of sale, you don't own any animal(s). However IF you adopt a child, you DO get a "bill of sale" called an "Amended Birth Certificate." I know; I've got one!

$300 for a rescued animal is cheap. Especially if the animal is a pure-bred dog.

I disagree with your analysis of the costs - I work in the vet industry, and I can tell you very clearly that a health exam, spay/neuter surgery, vaccinations, fecal exam, de-worming, dental exam/cleaning,and all the other procedures that make an animal ready for adoption can easily cost more than $300. Even if we discount a vet's donated time, the veterinarian is likely not going to make his staff work for free as well.

Most established shelters, as well as many large rescue groups, have paid veterinarians on staff to ensure proper care of the animals. There are few veterinarians who would be willing to donate that many hours. Our local shelter has three vets on staff, and we still have many other vets and vet students who donate their time.

Additionally, shelters have other expenses to cover in addition to the overhead you would expect. Our local shelter, a private organization, has the legal mandate for enforcing animal welfare laws for our county. Yes, we have fully trained, gun-toting officers who are being paid completely by private donations. The city gives a token $60 payment each year for these services. So, as part of your adoption fee, you are helping our officers deal with hoarding cases, the prosecution of people who shoot guns and arrows at cats, and the prosecution of girlfriends who set their boyfriend's puppies on fire when they get into a fight.

A larger adoption fee also is insurance for the shelter that you will be able to provide financially for the animal. Our adoption fees used to be around $100. People would come in and yell at the staff and suggest that they would be doing us a favour by taking the animal home for free. No, if you can't afford the adoption fee, you probably can't afford the veterinary care and proper feeding and housing of the animal.

Ironically, after we raised our adoption fees to match what other shelters were charging (we are now charging around $300 - $400 for a pure-bred puppy), our adoptions sky-rocketed. If you call a dog a $100 dog, and the pet shop is selling it for $2,000, people think something is wrong with it. By charging more for adoptions, we have placed a higher value on these lives, and our customers have responded positively to this change. This also allows us to drop the adoption fee for elderly animals and those that do have conditions that would have made it hard to adopt prior. So now, especially if you are an elderly human, you can adopt an elderly dog that has all of its medical issues taken care of for about $20.

Also, please note: 30% of dogs in shelters are pure-bred dogs. There is nothing wrong with any of the animals in a shelter, unless you are specifically told. Animals are relinquished for a variety of reasons - people move, the dog got "too big", people had kids. These reasons show the immaturity of the people who relinquished the animals (we generally do not adopt animals to people who have previously relinquished animals to us unless it was an extreme case, such as domestic violence), but these reasons have nothing to do with the animal's medical or behavioural state. In the majority of the cases, people failed to take into consideration that getting an animal was an investment in time.

Both Parties are right in this case. it's technically adoption, but I "own" two cat's and I personally rescued, and I treat them as such, they get proper grooming, baths. Once they are old enough they will see the vet to have the bits removed. People who simply look at animals as pets that are part of the family are the ones that see the most trouble. Animals especially cats are far from domesticated. They can turn in an instant and not feel bad about it. This does not imply they are not emotional creatures.

But the concept of ownership is the best policy in caring for an animal, people who treat their property poorly (also often treat their family poorly so there won't be a difference there anyway) are apt to treat animals the same yes. But I personnally keep all my porperty in mint condition, this means washing everything triming everything. It's like a fine sports car you wouldn't let it get covered in mud, crack the windshield, and then leave it with under a quarter tank of gas.

And the Slavery comment was out of line, throughout history animals have be bought, sold and owned. They aren't anywhere near the level of sentience of human beings and should never be placed in the same catagory. to do so counterminds your own sentience, animals are a limited resource and should never have been domesticated because in mans attempt to do so he's limited the animals ability to coexists with non-domestic creatures.

Chief, I rarely say that I feel sorry for people, but wow.

You own things, not living beings. Cats and dogs are mammals, just like you. Yes, you are an animal too. I'm sure you would think differently if suddenly an alien species came to Earth that consider itself as far above us as you believe we are above cats and dogs, and decided they 'owned' us.

Animals feel all the same sensations we do, from pain to pleasure, and have the same emotions we have. You sound like someone who couldn't care less how an animal feels as your own feelings as a human are always paramount.

@Chief-1548815 Animals do have feelings. That has been proven scientifically. Certainly they feel pain, and what we consider might 'complex' emotions, really, are not, they are common to all mammalian species.

It sounds to me that you're someone who wouldn't have any problems abusing an animal because you don't believe they feel. You either have no experience with animals or you lack any empathy whatsoever to not be able to tell that animals feel the same way as you or I.

Whether or not you like to believe it, those areas of their brains are the same as ours. This is scientific fact.

@Krista,

do you have any idea how far removed we are from other animals including 90+% of Mammals?

We are leaps and bounds above the rest of the food chain. Man has no natural predators to be found in the animal kingdom. 90% of animal attack are fear induced. We perform sexual acts for pleasure (a trait found only in Dolphins the last time I checked maybe couple of others) we have free will.

As far as an Alien race descending from Space and claiming ownership over me? Naw I wouldn't feel to much different. If you managed to be so far scientifically advanced that you could zip across the light years and claim ownership over me I'd let you. And then do to my Free Will I'd simply arm up and go to war.

Allowing yourself to fall in the beliefe that wild or even domesticated animals can be seriously damaging to your health. I've watched people run into burning buildings and nearly die because of a cat or dog. Human Life can carry out without cats and dogs. Human life can be sustained on almost any animal beneath us in the food chain. I don't see you screaming about how Cows are people too, or chickens, or pigs, it simply isn't the same thing scientifically or otherwise.

Again you counter minding your own sentience by placing anything below a human on the same level as a human. Even in the act of "adopting" a animal you are counter minding your own argument, you've already exerted you dominance over that beast.

Where do you people live? I am serious; I run/work with a rescue group and our adoption fee is $90... that includes spay/neuter, all vacs, and as soon as possible we will be chipping them too. We are in the rural south so chipping is not required by law and is still pretty unusual in this area.

We place our dogs in foster homes until they are adopted and I foster some myself. I only take the large dogs, but I don't think I can be called a hoarder since my limit is 3 and they are in a large fenced area.

As far as owning or not: to most of us they are family members, but in the eyes of the law they are property (with the exception of military or police dogs).

Rene it's very dependant on the area, the concept that you have more money to begin with means they charge more. In my area a Dog is a status symbol, so it's not un usual to see $1500.00 putbull boxer mix puppies. And I'm not going to dissagree with the family concept, however if the house burns to the ground, the pets can go up in flames over the 4 children under the age of 10 in the house. Call me inhumane but they just are not that important. You can replace a Cat or Dog on a whim you can not replace a human being at will.

The most expensive dog you will find here (with the exception of people who order from out-of-state) is an English Bulldog at around $1200, and that is just because so much is involved in breeding them. After that $500-600 is super-expensive for a purebred, and our shelters have tons of purebred labs... people buy them with no clue what they are getting into and decide a dog is too much trouble and expense.

I'm not going to disagree with you, however I find all that to be way to much for a dog. Why pay 1500.00 for a dog that was originally found in nature for free? 9-10 people that buy purebred big dogs are using them as a sign of status not a show dog. it's outlandish when that's a down payment on a used car.

They use them at status symbols here too; and I am not bashing men, but they are usually the ones that show off by owning certain breeds. Here it is American Staffordshire terriers (a.k.a pit bulls) right now; before that it was rottweilers and before that, dobermans. In other words, what are considered "bully breeds". They intentionally do things to make their dogs mean and aggressive, and unethical breeders actually breed them for aggressiveness, which results in a bad rep for the breed in general. The unethical breeders generally charge a lot more for their puppies.

I can't say I have ever paid for a dog unless an adoption fee can be considered payment, but considering what the fee covers I don't count it as payment.

Rick, it sounds like you were being responsible to take a hard look at yourself, and you need to do this frequently, so you don't go over the edge. You've found good homes for 14 dogs, but that's not quite 50%, and if you can't resist acquiring more "children" you could easily find yourself in an overwhelming situation that you yourself wouldn't even recognize. You should arrange for occasional visits from a Humane Society rep, veterinarian, or other responsible person, to help ensure that you are doing a positive thing. In other words, be sure you are part of the solution, not part of the problem.

Rick, you are so right on older dogs being harder to place... nearly impossible. A few shelters I know have had some success with a 'Seniors for Seniors' program... the adoption fee is waived for anyone over 65 adopting an animal over 5 years old. If you have a local shelter they might work with to find good homes for them.

BTW Rick, where do you live? Seriously, we are trying to place one now that NO ONE wants to adopt and the shelter can't prevent him being PTS much longer. He is about 5 years old which makes it hard enough, but his previous owners managed to find an unethical vet to 'debark' him... cut his vocal cords... so his just kind of croaks. No one will adopt an older dog that can't bark...

Donating to the humane society doesn't help needy animals. It pays humane society salaries and funds killing for space. Take care of your own, help an extra one or two. Show compassion and caring to ALL living things. (Humans are animals too...)

Salaries? We get paid? Every shelter I have worked with has maybe 2 paid employees and everyone else volunteers, or they are inmates on outside labor programs or people sentenced to community service.

Donations help with utilities, food (a large shelter can go through thousands of pounds a month), vet care; not all shelters are kill shelters, but even in a no-kill euthanasia is sometimes a necessary evil.

You are as dumb as that comment. You overlooked the conditions the animals had to endure. My opinion is to let the punishment fit the crime and you can join her!!

As an animal lover and rescuer I hate to say this, but I am also a realist... humane euthanasia is a necessary evil at times. Is an animal better off starved and living in filth then being given a painless death? Or living with an abusive owner? Or starving on the streets? That is the problem with most activists... they have absolutely no sense of reality.

THAT is a law that should be nationwide and strictly enforced!!! Most people have no idea how drastically the numbers of strays and unwanted animals would be cut if everyone spayed/neutered and were subject to penalties if they didn't.

Crais P: many places do have these laws, but like so many other laws on the books, enforcing them is the problem. For ANY agency of authority to remove animals from a property, they must have legal ability & also the volunteers & places to keep the animals temporarily. Many of us do respond to these crises & temporarily foster until an appropriate home can be arranged for them. The problem often is getting (in our area) the Sheriff's Deputies along with the appropriate Rescue Agencies organized so that when they DO make a raid, they can remove most (or all) within a short time. Also, no one can expect to find animals not abused unless they see what is going on & report it. We can't read minds & none of us are psychic. There are some people who are "regulars," (abusers/hoarders) but they aren't the only ones causing trouble.

BTW, it is against the law in most States & is a Felony in some, so this is similar to a drug raid. But living in a poor part of the country, it makes it even more difficult to save starved dogs, cats & others. We had a raid here last wk. with a horse that had to be put down immediately with an underfed filly crying for her mother while she was euthanized.

So Chief! (#2.10) Put your money where your "cahones" are. No feelings? It truly must SUCK big time to be you. Sorry your life is such a S*** B****! My only suggestion is that you go into the closet & hang yourself! JUST A SUGGESTION, OF COURSE!

Remember to spay and neuter your animal rescuer today.

these people are the creme de la creme of whack jobs. holy crap!

God Bless Cheryl. There are many on here NOT on the "Lunatic Fringe" who know well what we all are doing with our blood, sweat & tears.

In complete agreement Bevis

Many thanks......................from the animals saved, Deemo. Have had nothing but rescues for 44 yrs.

The small rescues absolutely need help and no one wants to bother. We struggle with ours, and we pay for everything out of our own pockets. The vet that helps handles our dogs at a loss, he takes a lot in himself. Our biggest obstacle is our city officials. Our city has no true shelter, just holding pens. When animal control picks up dogs, they hold them 5-7 days then they go to a shelter 50 miles away to be put down. A few months ago, someone went to the holding pens and found them filthy with no food or water for the dogs... we don't know for sure how long they had been without food, but they had resorted to killing and eating each other; there were 2 carcasses in the pens that the others had been feeding on.

We now monitor the pens and take the dogs when their time is up to find them homes. We have also been fighting for the dismissal of the ACO in charge of the holding pens but the new mayor refuses to get rid of him; the mayor actually gave him a promotion and a raise. Rather than work with us, the mayor refuses to speak with any of us and actively opposes us on anything he can. It is bad enough to struggle financially to care for the ones we get, but it worse to have to actually fight city officials to be able to do the right thing.

And yet there is another article on newvine about a four year old being strapped to a bed and starved to death. So yes the disconnect is real. These people who hoard don't seem to be able to understand that the animals they are taking in need a set amount of food and water. Or even that the other, more aggressive animals are taking all the food and leaving the weaker ones to starve. They only see that the animals is "loved" by them and that is all it should need.

I would gladly send her there. I would probably even join her for what I would do to her.

What?that is just stupid!

Actually, no, it's fact. Look up the stats yourself. It's men who do stupid things like let their dogs "roam" free where they can impregnate female dogs in heat. Vets recommend one ovulation for a female dogs (around 5-6 months) to reduce their liklihood of contracting breast cancer. Read up. You'd be amazid.

I know of no vets that suggest allowing female animals to go into heat prior to being spayed. Being intact (i.e., not being spayed) is the biggest cause of mammary tumours in animals (that would be breast cancer).

For medical and behavioural reasons, spay/neuter your animals prior to them becoming sexually mature.

Most of the animal hosrders are female and it looks like we have a man-hating female here as well.

Was his name Buster? If it was, tell him 'In My Lifetime - the 3 CD box set' wasn't in the shipment... he has been dodging my emails for 2 months now.

Wonderful John. You have NO idea how much good you would be doing to shutting down the "puppy mills" or the pet stores that sell their sick, inbred, unsocialized puppies.

Have at it!!!

John, I have been saying that for years!!! If people want a pure bred dog that badly then they should be able to afford a very high tax. I've always thought at least $400-$600. If they do not agree with that then go to a local shelter and pay the $150 adoption fee.

What's funny to me is that the pet stores now days take a mutt and give it a cute name, like Puggle or Cock-a-poo and charge 1,200 bux for it. And people buy them!

And then, they either get to put the animal down due to horrendous medical problems, OR they, like my son & his partner get to spend HUGE amts. of $ to try to save a misbred animal who is, as of my last conversation with my son, now blind among TONS of other problems.

ALWAYS SPAY AND NEUTER! Of course I say this with 2 puppies sleeping on top of my feet right now but they are going to be spayed/neutered as soon as they are old enough. And they were not purchased... we rescued their mother while she was pregnant and she had them 3 days after we got her, and she was spayed ASAP, as soon as they were weaned.

In a Darth Vader Voice..... I am your father!

lol Deemo! Sure u aren't MY other son? does a terrific imitation.

Also check with vets, shelters, and rescue groups; most larger cities have low-cost spay/neuter clinics, and some groups will help cover the costs for people with financial troubles.