I wouldn't expect anything less of a sanctuary state.

Since California is so gun-ho on boycotts, I'm thinking this would be a good time for me to start my boycott of their state ! ! ! !

Good because they dont want you there or your $3

I left 3 years ago after 30 years and can finally breathe fresh air. I rarely go there. it is ironic that this disease was irradicated until recently when more and more anchor babies are being born. Mexicans live in squaler and their life style does not change when they come here. They tend to live in a house with 8 to 10 people - great breeding for disease. They get their shots free so there is no excuse for them not getting their shots. and the same for the white parents. Same on them! When their child gets it, then it is spread to other choldren. Either get youir child vaccinated or keep them at ho,me.

For your information, in Mexico our FREE vaccination program includes the pertussis vaccine and thus we vaccinate every Mexican child. Access to the vaccine for low income Americans is the problem and of course is going to get worse. A Mexican Pediatrics Board certified MD

Dear guenavere

Whooping cough has never been eradicated...you are thinking about smallpox. Polio is almost eradicated.

It also makes you sound ignorant to blame "anchor babies". Perhaps you would also like to blame terrorists, liberals and Obama for the epidemic?

Please educate yourself. It is embarrassing how moronic the comments on these sites are. And I don't normally nit-pick spelling errors, but your errors make you look even more ignorant.

Many parents forgo vaccines for their children because of concerns about autism, typically fueled by misinformation on the Internet,

Well, now those parents can visit their kids graves and feel good that their kid never got autism.

People living in the 17th century: Muslims and Jenny McCarthy

I´m mexican and if you are not aware of this or are you so ignorant . We do not have these diseases in our country, In Mexico ALL the vaccines are free and we receive them since we are born until we died, in these cases swine flu and Wooping flu YOU American have this diseases, propague it and blame others. Everyone that is living in USA should get their vaccines. but you should NOT say ALL illegal Aliens (Not all Mexican) or MEXICAN do not have vaccines or are so rude this is from ignorant people.

The GREAT Welfare State brings with it people who can not care for themselves - There is more wrong in California than a cough!

guenavere - Your comments reflect your lack of knowledge of the Mexican vaccine childhood schedule. They are fully vaccinated and some of the most compliant people who come into American schools. I work in a local health deparment where Mexicans frequently come in and pay full price for a full set of shots so that thier children can start school. Often times, I see American families who will not pay and rely on the federal program, Vaccine for Children (VFC) to vaccinate. They are often behind schedule and out of compliance to the point of not being allowed back in school, which they seem to be ok with.

As far as making the statement that Mexicans live in squalor.. well that's just plain ignorrant. Become culturally competant and then feel free to add to the discussion.

the state Department of Public Health officials also released demographic information showing that 77% of the hospitalized infants were Latino, as were eight of the nine fatalities. (source L.A. Times Sept 16, 2010)

Soo little to do with illegal immigration and more to do with "educated" people refusing to vaccinate their children. The fact that the infants were Latino could be attributed to the fact that infants have not received all of the shots necessary to fend off this disease.

I'm glad to say that I was born a CA girl, but no longer live there and no longer want to as the state is overrun with people who jump on the protesting bandwagon regardless of the cause or implications. Why don't you all start protesting the salaries your politicians receive (CA has the highest paid legislators of any state by about $30k a year-easy to look up) and put that money towards the education system so your kids are at least educated enough to make their own decisions.

AZ nikki:

CA is a nightmare even for hard-core Californians. High crime, gangs, drugs, homicide, anti-business regulation, biggest bureacracy in the nation, Big government, heavy taxation, corruption, and nearly dead-last worst public education in the nation. Thanks to its socialist in government, CA is also bankrupt. On the other hand, career politicians are rich. Corrupt politicians stealthfully steals from taxpayers. City of Bell and Vernon are exemplar of the criminals in government service masqueraded as government workers.

CA public school receives both property tax and lottery money, and yet despite being inundated with money CA students consistently perform poorly on standardized test. The money, obviously, is going into certain groups of individual not the school system whose neglected infrastructure is old, delapidated or obsolete. Like the corrupt politicians and thieves in Bell, Vernon and other cities, the folks siphoning education money are keeping their deep dark secret. Teacher Labor Union and others who also have their hands in the cookie jar are keeping their lips sealed.

As more Californian realize the magnitude of the evil in California, they will abandon California before the state engulf them. Indeed, the stampede out the California has already begun.

I'll bet you would just love it here in AZ.

utnurse,

"guenavere - Your comments reflect your lack of knowledge of the Mexican vaccine childhood schedule. They are fully vaccinated and some of the most compliant people who come into American schools. I work in a local health deparment where Mexicans frequently come in and pay full price for a full set of shots so that thier children can start school."

Good, don't have to worry about the whooping cough coming across the border, just the virulent strains of TB, hepatitis, dengue fever, chagas, and leprosy. Thanks! I feel a lot better.

I find it funny that people are so upset that people from other countries come here illegally. Well, here is a news flash. Unless you are 100% native american then we are ALL foreigners in America. At one point your ancestors came across the ocean to make a better life for themself and their families. And do you think they had to fill out immigration cards? Hell no!!!! Now with that said I believe that we should occupy this country legally but then again unless our own ancestors came over here with visa's and with the permission of the Native American's then we are all illegall in someway.

You would think that the adults would update their vaccine boosters. They are more than half of the reason for the whooping cough epidemic in California

Angie,

"I find it funny that people are so upset that people from other countries come here illegally. Well, here is a news flash. Unless you are 100% native american then we are ALL foreigners in America."

I find it funny how ignorant people can be that they don't understand that there are no indigenous people in the Americas. Gotta love that public school system!

My daughter has been immunized for everything since she was a baby & toddler, and I have no problem with that. However, she's now 12, and I seriously can't remember her getting any booster shots within the last 5+ years... she's been to her doctor a few times since then, yet no one told me she needed a booster for whooping cough. Kinda pisses me off, especially with this so-called epidemic going on.

When I was a kid, my sister had whooping cough, and the rest of us siblings had to have boosters as soon as they found out what she had, so none of us ended up getting it, thank God, because it was just horrible.

I suppose now I need to call her doctors office and find out why she was never recommended for this booster, and God knows any other ones she never received either. Besides being in school all day around kids, she also does taekwondo 5 days a week. Perfect places for getting these diseases.

I'm just angry because it's her doctor who should be keeping track of these boosters she's supposed to have - I'm not in the medical field and have no idea when she's supposed to get these shots. As far as I'm concerned, that's his job!

Svenolafson.....

Ok, first of all they were the first people to live in North and South America. They may have migrated from somewhere else but they still were the first people to inhabit the land. They made it their land for thousands of years and then good old Chris came over and staked his claim. At one point we were all foreigners. I think that as long as someone comes to America and goes through the steps to become a legal citizen then they should be welcomed with no problems. Non of this bull that they don't belong.

Svneolafson

You might not know it but those diseases you say Mexicans bringing to the US where brought here by Europeans and some of them are not even transmisable diseases.

Please...

To the person who pointed out that 8 of the 9 infant deaths were in babies of hispanic origin:

The race of the babies who died means nothing. Mexico has some of the best childhood vaccination rates.

When you hear about deaths from pertussis, it is almost always infants under 1 who die. They are too young for the vaccination and are the most severely affected when infected. An older child who has not been vaccinated will most likely not die from the disease.

These young infants rely on herd immunity to keep them safe. When you have crunchy parents who get their advice from Jenny McCarthy, the Pet Detective, and (heaven help us) whale.to instead of their physicians, you will see these gigantic cracks in herd immunity appear. It is always the youngest who are so catastrophically afflicted by this ignorance.

Well designed study after well designed study show no link between autism and vaccines. Thimerosal is not even in routine childhood vaccines anymore; has not been since 2001. It still shows up in a few formulations of the seasonal influenza vaccination.

Agreed. And shame on freakin' Oprah for gicving that dangerous bimbo a stage to spew her idiotic nonsense from.

http://eddiecabot.blogspot.com

http://www.jennymccarthybodycount.com/Jenny_McCarthy_Body_Count/Home.html

You can also, thank that crooked doctor Wakefield in England who faked his study data at the behest (and funding) of an attorney in order to win a court case. Wakefield is the one that started this whole mess about Thimerosal causing autism. His study has been discredited and he has had his license to practice medicine revoked, but we are still dealing with the fall out from his unethical and illegal actions. It is too bad that he can not be charged with murder in the deaths of these children. If not for the hysteria he started, children would be getting their vaccines on schedule, just like previous generations did, and these children would likely still be alive. We need to work to stiffen the penalties and include serious prison time for these individuals and the companies or other parties that fund them. This manipulation of data in studies to mislead the public and the courts has long term, severe impacts so the punishments need to match.

Wakefield is the one that started this whole mess about Thimerosal causing autism.

Really? Wakefields paper came OUT in 1998. Whooping cough has been on the rise since the 1980s. How do you explain the increase in whooping cough 20 years before Wakefield?

Thanks for killing more kids Jenny McCarthy.

Did you question the people (all hispanics) that died? Do even know who Jenny McCarthy is? Did you know that the majority of deaths are in 3 mos and under? Did you know that those babies are recommend NOT to get vaccinated? Did you know that the vaccinated also can carry pertussis just like the unvaccinated? Probably not.

The infants who die usually catch the infection from older sibs or parents who are either unimmunized or have not received the recommended booster shots.

The reason pertussis has been on the increase is that the immunity fades with time if no booster shot is given. The teenagers and older get the disease and pass it to younger children who are not fully immunized.

Did you know that babies are recommended to get vaccinated starting at 2 months? Did you know that by vaccinating children and adults, it protects babies under 3 months from becoming infected? Did you know that by not being vaccinated the risk of acquiring pertussis is 22 times higher than if your are fully vaccinated?......Probably not.

Robert, your arguments are tired and old. This outbreak happened specifically because babies are not being vaccinated in record numbers. There is no disputing the correlation. This is not some regular increase in numbers, it is a huge spike. That's a special cause incident, not common cause. Use some logic instead of your old, proven-wrong theories.

alright, I had whooping cough as a child and I was lucky to surive. Here's one super important thing I learned from my vet... if your pooch hasn't been innoculated against bordatella aka kennel cough you can catch whooping cough from your dog and vise versa. Zoonotic diseases.

I remember coughing until I threw up over and over again and can't imagine what this does to the tiny body of a baby.

Robert, your arguments are tired and old. This outbreak happened specifically because babies are not being vaccinated in record numbers

Prove me wrong then. Please provide the vaccination coverage numbers instead of your opinion. Also provide the corresponding case and death number per year. You do know that b. pertussis is a bacteria that can still be carried by the vaccinated. The vaccine is for the toxin not the bacteria. You being a pharma employee you should know that.

Roy:

Did you know that by not being vaccinated the risk of acquiring pertussis is 22 times higher than if your are fully vaccinated?.

Did you know the study you're parroting this figure from showed that 89% of the infected in the outbreak were vaccinated for pertussis? 11% in the outbreak was from the unvaccinated.

Any moron that would blame Jenny McCarthy, or Oprah for a massive outbreak of pertussis is simply stupid!!! The very reason children are getting whooping cough is the fact that childhood vaccinations have been stopped. PERIOD

Has anyone thought of the possibility of all the diseases that illegals are bringing into the USA not to mention bed bugs, t.b. etc.? When the DPT vaccinations were given these childhood diseases were eradicated...now they are back in record numbers. God help us if smallpox returns!

God help us if smallpox returns!

Calm down. Small pox won't return unless humans cause it to be. In spite of what you feel to be true, no other vaccine disease has been eliminated.

Did you know the study you're parroting this figure from showed that 89% of the infected in the outbreak were vaccinated for pertussis? 11% in the outbreak was from the unvaccinated.

Robert --

Are you really being sincere? You're not taking into account the fact that the vast majority of people in that study were vaccinated. For example, let's say 100 people live in a college dormitory in California and 95 are vaccinated against pertussis ("parroting" Dr. Paul Offit's example). Then say an outbreak occurs and 8 of the vaccinated group falls ill with pertussis and 4 out of the 5 unvaccinated people fall ill. In that case, yes, more vaccinated people got sick!!...but the risk of being unvaccinated was 80% versus about 8%. That's where 22 times less risk after pertussis vaccination comes from...come on Robert.

Over the last 3 months, I've been on four or five threads about vaccines. Almost NONE of the comments supported them. I was (and still am) amazed.

Vaccines have been SO successful at eradicating disease that we take them for granted. And yes, Wakefield did a terrible disservice to humankind with his falsified data.

A similar backlash against vaccines happened in our country in the early 1800s. All it took was one smallpox epidemic to 'convert' the masses to the benefits of vaccines. If this whooping cough accomplishes the same thing, we will have gotten off easy.

I'd like to know where Jenny Mccarthy got her medical degree from that she can write a book and allude that the DPT vaccine caused her son to be autistic. Guess she didn't consider having breast implants might cause her kid to be sick. Or maybe the drugs she took.

talk about unsupported assertions.

What vaccines in the early 1800s do you think they backlashed for no good reason against? And how was it similar to your above argument that vaccine success spoiled them. Did vaccine success and antibiotics from the 1700s spoil them until they didn't know how good they had it?

How many people specifically did not vaccinate because of Dr. Andrew Wakefield's paper. How many people died from measles before wakefield's paper? How many died after wakefield's paper?

I'm not saying that the vaccines are respondsible for autism. But can anyone explain the dramatic increase in Autism since the CDC has so drastically raised the required vaccine schedules? Vaccines do have their problems, my oldest son has a significant hearing loss in both ears becaust of a nasty reaction to the whooping cough vaccine!

you do know what the largest correlations found for autism were when a large-scale study was performed regarding autism?

education level, and proximity to an autism center.

the more educated a person was, the more likely they were to bring their kid to an autism center and have their kid "diagnosed".

Everyone should realize it was not the vaccine that may have caused autism or other complications: it was the mercury in the preservative. It is possible to have reliable vaccines WITHOUT mercury in them. When my last child was born, the pediatrician warned us about having him receive all three vaccinations at once because there "seemed to be a link between the triple shots and autism." Had she mentioned there was mercury in the vaccines, I would have realized the connection. So, our son received the vaccines singly, and he has a mild case of autism. I still believe the mercury has something to do with autism in that some individuals are allergic to mercury and other substances that may be in the vaccine.

I believe it is unfair for anyone to blast Jenny McCarthy when she is only trying to spare other families the ordeal she has endured. She has the responsibility of caring for a severely affected child, and no one should criticize her without FIRST walking in her shoes.

Robert,

I thought I made myself clear in my post. The backlash was against the smallpox vaccine.

Since the early 19th century, when vaccination became a standard part of public health and medicine, there have been groups and individuals who are most clearly characterised as anti-vaccinationists opposing such policies

http://www.ganfyd.org/index.php?title=Anti-vaccinationists

It happened again in the late 1800s:

Anti-vaccination activity increased again in the U.S. in the late 19th century. After a visit to New York in 1879 by William Tebb, a prominent British anti-vaccinationist, the Anti-Vaccination Society of America was founded. The New England Anti-Compulsory Vaccination League was formed in 1882, and the Anti-Vaccination League of New York City in 1885.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaccine_controversy#History

As for antibiotics, you say

...and antibiotics from the 1700s spoil them until they didn't know how good they had it?

There were no known antibiotics in the 1700s. It came much later - in the 1900s

In 1943 American microbiologist Selman A. Waksman (1888–1973) discovered a fungus that produced a powerful antibiotic substance. He named it streptomycin. This original antibiotic, which was produced in quantity in 1944, helped in treating such lethal diseases as tuberculosis, typhoid fever, bubonic plague, and bacterial meningitis. Although streptomycin saved numerous lives, it was eventually found to be unsafe and removed from the market in favor of newer, safer antibiotics, such as sulfa drugs and penicillin.

As for measles, it's on the rise:

Reports of measles are on the rise, with health experts attributing the increase to the decision by some parents to forego vaccinations for their children out of fears the shots could trigger diseases.

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/washingtonpostinvestigations/2008/08/measles_back_with_a_vengeance.html

I don't make unsubstantiated claims. As a scientist, I do my homework.

the more educated a person was, the more likely they were to bring their kid to an autism center and have their kid "diagnosed".

So you're of the ilk of "no autism epidemic"? An autism denier if you will. Or at least this really isn't a new problem it's been here for years. That autism is all genetic.It can entirely be explained by diagnosis bias and criteria definition. I see. You're one of those.

I'll put you over in the corner because that's a whole other argument. But if that's the stance you want to use then I'm going to hold you to the consistency of it.

I don't make unsubstantiated claims. As a scientist, I do my homework.

You mean like read the washington post and wikipedia? Nothing wrong with those but if you want to boast about being a scientist and "doing your homework" and all I find it kind of humorous that those are what you call "your homework".

So since you're a homework type of guy. How efficacious (immune response in % of people) was that small pox vaccine back then. How effective was it? How many people were KILLED by the vaccine? How many cases were caused by that vaccine?

Would you take it today as they made it back then? Even if you saw your friend die from taking it. Did you know that small pox is treatable after the fact?

Robert,

You mean like read the washington post and wikipedia?

Are you suggesting that I conduct original research on the efficacy of each and every vaccine ever made? That's just silly on it's face.

If you have subscriptions to the journals that publish the original research, you could easily access them yourself.

From the CDC:

On 8 May 1980, the Thirty-third World Health Assembly declared that smallpox had been eradicated globally. For the first time in history, mankind had vanquished a disease.

http://www.cdc.gov/Mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/su48a6.htm

Also, here's this:

Smallpox affected all levels of society. In the 18th century in Europe, 400,000 people died annually of smallpox, and one third of the survivors went blind

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1200696/

As for:

How many people were KILLED by the vaccine? How many cases were caused by that vaccine?

How many died from the vaccine? I can't find any information on that. But I've already done a lot of research on this subject. I'll leave that one to you.

Do you know anyone who died from smallpox? It used to be very common.

stormrider2364-910373-

Speaking from my experience in mental health and diagnosing kids with possible psychiatric and developmental illnesses, the rise in diagnosis may be attributed to the rise in awareness. Similar to ADHD. when I was a kid (not all that long ago as I'm only 30), there was barely anyone diagnosed with ADHD - they were just considered "active" or "troublemakers." Since the stigma of being ADHD has been removed to a degree, and awareness about the illness has been widespread, it's very common. Same with Autism.

Being a parent that has a child with autism, I find your comments regards Jenny McCarthy, the autism epidemic and vaccines as uneducated verbal diareah. Parents of children with autism are not anti vaccination, we just want - no demand that vaccinations be safe for all the kids including your unborn. Do you even know what is in a vaccine??? Obviously not.

There is no such thing as a genetic epidemic. Do your homework and ollow the money Einstein.

Until you have had the tragic experience of watching your healthy 2 year old slip gradually away after every vaccination, into the painful abyss of autism, while the 'Doctors' treat your concerns with patronizing bile and when your concerns are confirmed they simply walk away... then and only then you can judge the Mom and Dad warriors such as myself and J Mc and thousands of others who toil every day to repair the damage done to our babies childhoods.

Maybe then, when youve entered our familes daily nightmare and watch your child suffer everyday with the pain that vaccinations caused, maybe then you'll think twice about judging others actions.

I truly hope you never have to feel what we feel everyday and the only way to ensure that is to stop autism. The only people doing that are the parents of these dear kids and people like J Mc and Andy W.

Again, follow the money, we have nothing to lose and greedy Big Pharm who sleeps with the Govt, CDC etal... do.

There will always be those who have a low tolerance or no tolerance for a vaccine or drug but the sad part is you don't know until after that drug has been administered. Penicillin type drugs are just one example.

A study I read on Autism stated one factor in the increase is people are having children later in life. It claimed men over 45 that become fathers have a greater chance of having an autistic child or child with aspergers. It stated the sperm produced was less healthy and had defects. We know that women over 40 have a 50% greater risk of having a retarded child. So this may have merit.

When I asked a doctor about this he said, if you think back to 75 years ago the average life span was just 45 to 50 years. Back then many of the vaccines and medications available today were not available then, and many died of natural causes including the very young. Most did marry younger and had children at an earlier age.

I'm not an expert I'm just relating what I have read and been told by those in the medical profession.

Did you know the study you're parroting this figure from showed that 89% of the infected in the outbreak were vaccinated for pertussis? 11% in the outbreak was from the unvaccinated.

As the kind physicist said, the fact that less than the 1% of kids who are not vaccinated contributed to 11% of the outbreak means that the unvaccinated are more likely to be infected. It's relative numbers, Robert. The more unvaccinated children there are, the higher the infection rate. Which is why your logic is so dangerous (and so blatantly wrong it's hysterical).

There is no such thing as a genetic epidemic.

No, but that doesn't mean that autism isn't connected to genetics, either. Better awareness by parents and doctors and an ever-changing definition (have you seen how much the definition has changed and included more and more kids over the years?) have brought the disorder to the forefront of parents' minds. It's the diagnosis du jour (as ADHD was 10-15 years ago), and many who are diagnosed today did not meet the criteria 15 years ago, hence the "increase".

Did you also notice that the number of people classified as "mentally retarded" has DECREASED in the same percentages as autism spectrum has increased (i.e. it's a re-classification, not an increase)? Have you also noticed that the number of people classified as truly autistic has STAYED THE SAME, and only the percentage of those on the spectrum has increased? This clearly points to a definition change and better awareness, NOT an outside cause like vaccines, as the real reason behind this increase. Science has backed this up numerous times.

Honestly, I believe the root cause IS genetic. How many families have multiple kids diagnosed on the spectrum? This can't be pure coincidence (it would be like finding a needle in a haystack multiple times over and over again to have those kinds of odds). So a genetic anomaly (like many disorders out there) causes a child to have developmental delays and show autistic symptoms around the age of 2. Much like puberty, it's onset is not immediate upon birth, but shows up over time. This is what fits the facts we have today.

Robert, you mislead constantly, and don't have a clue about autism. My immediate family is affected (brother-in-law), and since it's likely got a genetic component, my future kids might be affected as well. All you care about is spreading UNPROVEN RUMORS about vaccines. As we see in California, KIDS ARE DYING BECAUSE OF THIS IGNORANCE (and because of arrogance like yours, which puts your "knowledge" as better than medical science's history). It is disgusting the filth you spread. The causes for autism are not well-understood, and people like you who vilify vaccines with abandon are hurting and killing kids.

And for God's sake, stop trying to berate me for working in the pharma industry. I work for a company with ZERO stake in the vaccine industry. Your own wife works in pharma too, yet you have no problem with her working in pharma and berate me for working in the same industry. Hypocrite.

Vaccines have been proven to be safe and effective, and no Internet rumors you provide make that statement false. Wakefield started this phony argument for his own personal financial gain. That's fishy. Vaccines are proven.

When I asked a doctor about this he said, if you think back to 75 years ago the average life span was just 45 to 50 years. Back then many of the vaccines and medications available today were not available then, and many died of natural causes including the very young. Most did marry younger and had children at an earlier age

The implication, but unsaid, in this statement is that medication and vaccines GREATLY improved lifespan by 30 years to what it is today. This is FALSE. When many children die that brings the "average" lifespan down dramatically. Vaccine deaths were dramatically declining before the invention of vaccines for disease. Improvements in living conditions are what made the most improvements in average lifespan.

People weren't killing over at 30 or 50 years old (the avg lifespan). They weren't getting married and having children as fast as they could because the were afraid they were going to die at 30. Childhood deaths from living conditions such as poor nutrition, crowding, hygeince, etc were much higher.

The same problem is what exists in 3rd world countries. Until those conditions change vaccines effects will be in vain.

As we see in California, KIDS ARE DYING BECAUSE OF THIS IGNORANCE (and because of arrogance like yours, which puts your "knowledge" as better than medical science's history). It is disgusting the filth you spread. The causes for autism are not well-understood, and people like you who vilify vaccines with abandon are hurting and killing kid

So how many of the california cases are in the vaccinated? this will clear some "ignorance" up.

New Report Says Jenny McCarthy’s Son May Not Have Had Autism After All. The story says that Jenny McCarthy is reversing her position on the vaccine and autism link and that she admits her son never had autism but instead has a neurological disorder called, Landau-Kleffner syndrome. The Hollywood Life reporter is basing his or her statements on a TIME magazine article released on February 25th in which Karl Taro Greenfeld interviews Miss McCarthy. /

And jenny WAS interviewed for this article

A new article in Time magazine — which Jenny was interviewed for — suggests Evan suffers from Landau-Kleffner syndrome, “a rare childhood neurological disorder that can also result in speech impairment and possible long-term neurological damage

After years of speaking out about her son’s autism — and against childhood immunizations — Jenny McCarthy is reversing her position.

Sheila Beers, your doctor is an idiot and I feel very sorry for your child that you have put your trust in a moron. That a medical professional would make a recommendation that one admittedly false 1998 report stated and that thousands of subsequent studies have disputed is disgusting!

I'm sorry for your child's issues, but to prove that a vaccine caused it, you'll have to prove that your child wouldn't be autistic if (s)he hadn't been vaccinated. Correlation does not equal causation.

Put simply, there is ZERO evidence that vaccines cause autism but there is no doubt they save lives!

After years of speaking out about her son’s autism — and against childhood immunizations — Jenny McCarthy is reversing her position.

She says vaccines are perfectly safe? nothing to see here move along?

kash:

Put simply, there is ZERO evidence that vaccines cause autism

Family to Receive $1.5M+ in First-Ever Vaccine-Autism Court Award

Zero evidene? Really?Zero?

So how many of the california cases are in the vaccinated? this will clear some "ignorance" up.

Robert, you're ridiculous. You know about herd immunity. To suggest that if a vaccinated person comes down with the illness that it's the vaccine's ineffectiveness that is the cause is absolutely absurd. The illness stays out of the majority of people when the majority is immunized. At a lesser vaccination rate, ANYONE can get the infection. You know this. Stop BS'ing.

The cause, as documented, is that the herd is no longer protected because of the number of people who are refusing to vaccinate. This has happened over and over again over the last few years. How many children have to die for you to see this connection? It's no coincidence that these outbreaks happen in areas with decreased immunization rates (California, Oregon, etc.). You're ignorance (or outright refusal to accept facts) is blinding you. Seriously, how can you ignore the mountain of evidence to refute your claims about vaccines? Your theories have been proven incorrect, OVER AND OVER AND OVER!!!!

In acknowledging Hannah's injuries, the government said vaccines aggravated an unknown mitochondrial disorder Hannah had

Yes, ZERO evidence. THE MITOCHONDRIAL DISORDER is the reason she showed symptoms of autism. Without that mitochondrial problem, the vaccine would not have caused the symptoms. Therefore, the symptoms are not due to the vaccine.

What don't you get about that? The vaccine isn't the root cause here...the root cause is, gasp!, GENETIC.

One more thing...since the mitochondrial DNA is different than our own regular DNA, and is inherited directly from the mother (daughter's mitochondrial DNA is exactly the same as the mother's, with no changes from daddy, like in reproduction), any child produced by Mrs. Poling would have had the same mitochondrial issue that Hannah Poling had. This means that research into regular DNA for genes might not hold the key. This case is a milestone because it could signal that the problem is really genetic, but from the mitochondrial DNA side.

Yes, Hannah was injured as a result of vaccines, and that's unfortunate. But the vaccine did not CAUSE the injury. That's the fault of unfortunate mitochondrial DNA lineage. Thus the difference between "resulting in" and "causing". Wording is chosen for a reason, my friends.

So how many of the california cases are in the vaccinated? this will clear some "ignorance" up.

Robert your post 2.29 is erroneous. There was a Polio epidemic in the early 50's. The disease is almost wiped out because of the polio vaccine. Smallpox, Rubella, Pneumonia, Tetanus, Scarlet fever to name a few. The US is not a 3rd world country and few were living in squalor when a cure for these and other diseases was developed.

Like I said some have a predisposition to a bad reaction to immunization or medication for whatever reason, and until they receive that medication or immunization it is not known what that reaction will be.

Could it be that some can't face that genetically they or their child is not perfect? Who is? Fear is borne out of ignorance, which is a self inflicted disease.

Do what you want with your own children those of us who are enlightened will protect ourselves and our children againt unecessary, life altering, and lethal risk.

Penguin excellent post. If it is true this gene is carried by only the mother then the theory I read about the likelihood of fathers sperm being defective if he is over 45 and thus the contributing factor to autism is another erroneous survey theory.

No argument there. I'd rather be correctly informed.

The theory I read had made some sort of sense originally, as it's generally known a woman after 40 in many cases is premenopausal and her eggs are not necessarily as healthy as when she was younger. Knowing that ED in men often effects them at 45+ it also made sense that their sperm would likewise be not as healthy, although it's the best of those little swimmers that make it to their destination.

So how many of the california cases are in the vaccinated? this will clear some "ignorance" up.

Repeat yourself all you want, Robert. The higher-than-normal population of unvaccinated CAUSED the vaccinated to get ill, since the vaccinated children were not protected by other vaccinated children, and instead were surrounded with unvaccinated ill children. Much like a little radiation is fine at the dentist's office, but a lot will harm you. Same concept. Eventually disease finds a way to infect, given enough hosts. This isn't a hard concept, Robert. You know why it happens, you just refuse to believe it. That's not science's problem, that's yours. IGNORANT.

Robert your post 2.29 is erroneous. There was a Polio epidemic in the early 50's. The disease is almost wiped out because of the polio vaccine. Smallpox, Rubella, Pneumonia, Tetanus, Scarlet fever to name a few.

http://genesgreenbook.com/resources/Natural_Infectious_Disease_Declines_Immunization_Effectiveness.pdf

As you can see polio mortality was in decline way before vaccines

BTW. scarlet fever does not have a vaccine. It declined also. How do you think that happened?

Repeat yourself all you want, Robert. The higher-than-normal population of unvaccinated CAUSED the vaccinated to get ill, since the vaccinated children were not protected by other vaccinated children, and instead were surrounded with unvaccinated ill children

If you're going to make that claim and not look foolish then you should know:

So how many of the california cases are in the vaccinated? this will clear some "ignorance" up.

Penguin:

Vaccines have been proven to be safe and effective, and no Internet rumors you provide make that statement false. Wakefield started this phony argument for his own personal financial gain. That's fishy. Vaccines are proven.

http://www.medalerts.org/vaersdb/findfield.php

253803

Write-up: Information regarding Prevenar (pneumococcal 7-valent conjugate vaccine (diphtheria crm197 protein) injection) was received from a nurse regarding a female patient who on 3/3/2004 at 14 months, received a fourth dose of Prevnar. on 3/8/2006, at 3 years of age, the child developed respiratory syncytial virus and sinusitis. On 3/13/2006, the patient developed overwhelming streptococcus pneumoniae sepsis and subsequently died.

268775

Write-up: Infant Died within 24 hours of receiving routine child hood immunizations.

271962

The patient's pediatrician's office was notified by the coroner that the patient had been found dead by the father sometime in the morning, on January 2007

272947

Write-up: Information has been received from a physician concerning a 3 month old female who, "five weeks ago," on approximately 11-JAN-2007, was vaccinated with a first 2ml oral dose of ROTATEQ. In the "first week of February," on approximately 01-FEB-2007, the patient died of volvulus.

273384

Write-up: Information has been received from a physician concerning a 15-month-old male with a history of jaundice at birth, who on 24-JAN-2007 was vaccinated with a 0.5ml dose of ProQuad (lot #656160/1396F, expiration date 16-MAY-2008). Concomitant vaccinations included: Prevnar (lot #B08639A), Tripedia (lot # C2552AA) and Comvax (lot reported as 653660/0257F). Subsequently, on 11-FEB-2007 the patient experienced a mental state change and was hospitalized. The patient underwent a CT scan that was non conclusive at the time of this report. It was reported that the patient experienced unexpected rapid deterioration and died on 12-FBE-2007. An autopsy was performed, however, results were not yet available. The cause of death was unknown at the time of this report. The patients adverse experiences were considered to be life threatening and disabling. Additional information has been requested. 4/24/07 Received medical records from PCP which reveal patient experienced good health on day of vax.

http://www.medalerts.org/vaersdb/findfield.php?IDNUMBER=273879

Write-up: Infant found in crib not breathing and cyanotic, parent began CPR and call 911. Child placed on life support and later declared brain dead. Taken off life support and pronounced dead. Child treated with various medication for infection , blood pressure. 7/20/07 Received Autopsy Report which reveals COD as unexplained sudden death; ischemic brain injury & diffuse cerebral edema; coagulopathy; metabolic acidosis; & stool positive for rotavirus (possible false (+) secondary to vax 5 days prior. Patient had undergone organ retrieval & autopsy was limited to lungs, uterus, ovaries, trachea, esophagus, distal colon & brain.

----------------------------------

You get the point. There are THOUSANDS of these. Just check out the website and put in any symptom you want to.

Impeccably safe. Yeh. right.

Robert; I don't know how old you are but I well remember the Polio epidemic of the early 50's Jonas Salk came out with his vaccine during that time. I know I had that shot at that time because that was the summer our neighbor was put in an iron lung because she contracted polio which to this day left her with a limp and other complications.

As for Scarlet Fever, the medications developed after my mother and aunt, as well as others of their time suffered through it only wish they were available to them then.

Believe what you want, ignorance has no bounds. As for your web sites, there will always be those who have an adverse reaction; Just like you do to reason. I'm not going to waste my time with you.

Robert, silly Robert. To be on the VAERS database, you don't have to show causality. Adverse events reported can be anything around the time of a vaccine, even if it has nothing to do with the vaccine. A famous case of this was a doctor who wrote an obviously false report to see if it woud be entered into VAERS. It was. He then followed up himself and had it removed.

ANYONE can report to VAERS, EVEN PARENTS. It doesn't make the case true. Nice try though, even though it's completely WRONG.

Adverse events do not make vaccines unsafe, Robert. How about the many "adverse events" one would find WITHOUT vaccines (i.e. preventable diseases coming back into the public)? You would expect many more deaths and injuries WITHOUT vaccines than with them.

I can write in right now to VAERS and show you, if you'd like. What would you like my report to say -- kid had bite marks on his arm after the MMR vaccine was given? You tell me. Your logic has so many flaws in it it's laughable. VAERS is like a call center, not a medical reporting tool.

VAERS is like a call center, not a medical reporting tool.

That's nice of you to report to parents that no one is watching out for them if their child is injured by a vaccine. that's reassuring. If your child dies by vaccine then you have no recourse except for a "call center". Thank you penguin. One more reason to not trust what health authorities say. "We'll help you we promise"

Robert, don't twist my words. VAERS is the database for complaints, which are then followed up by health authorities if the claims are valid. Sadly, most of the claims aren't valid, and the database is rendered useless. If your child dies by vaccine, then you're not calling the call center, are you? You're calling a hospital. VAERS is watered down, and cannot be reliably used as a source for medical data, because a lot of it is hogwash.

People are watching out for the children's safety, Robert. VAERS can be a useful tool if the useless complaints are weeded out (which does happen). But to claim that the database is to be used by you and me to "find out the dangers of vaccines" -- baloney.

Thank you Robert, for proving my point. Ignorant people like you don't understand science. Or more likely, you understand it completely, yet you choose to manipulate the facts to benefit your own twisted point of view, which is even more cruel to the parents of kids affected by vaccines. Your delusions and other ridiculous Internet rumors are creating scared parents who don't know where to turn. Good job -- you're actually making the job for scientists to find the solutions to these diseases HARDER by spouting off inaccurate and blatantly false statements that lead to worthless studies and phony "cures" like chelation therapy, etc. Do you have a soul? You claim to be "for the kids", but you blatantly mislead and twist the facts to only suit your own agenda. How awful and pathetic. Instead of helping find the cause to autism and other diseases, you're ilk are holding up the path to truth. Truly awful. You should be ashamed.

Excellent points Penquin: Parents and everyone talk to you doctor or heath professionals, research the actual medications or vaccines in question. Give them your medical history to better understand yours or your child's concerns. Educate yourself that is your first protection against fear of the unknown. Fear is irrational, it clouds reason and the ability to respond in your best interest and self protection.

Stay healthy in body and mind there is a connection. Stress is a killer, Fear creates Stress.

and robert, most of your "evidence" is like the "evidence" of the nutcases that fight against flouridation.

I see you attacking physicist -ret,

what are your credentials?

if their child is injured by a vaccine. that's reassuring. If your child dies by vaccine then you have no recourse except for a "call center".

and if the parents are simply blaming the vaccine when the actual cause is something else?

...or is actually the vaccine.

it is true that adverse effects can happen Robert, that is true for nearly anything, not just medicine.

it is true that adverse effects can happen Robert,

As the VAERS website can attest and as the numerous reports of pharmaceutical recalls and data fabrication daily.

Roy:

At least YOU can sleep soundly knowing that, when it comes to vaccines, your hero, Paul Profit...oops...Offit has only YOUR best interests in mind: "'I am a co-holder of a patent for a (rotavirus) vaccine. If this vaccine were to become a routinely recommended vaccine, I would make money off of that,' Offit said. 'When I review safety data, am I biased? That answer is really easy: absolutely not.'" Of course not. Read this article (UPI Investigates: The Vaccine Conflict, by M. Benjamin) at http://www.vaccinationnews.com/DailyNews/2003/July/20/UPIInvestigates20.htm.

It's just sad when someone (Robert) just denies the benefits of vaccines, and uses statistics incorrectly to try to defend his point. If only 1% of the population is unvaccinated and they're accounting for 11% of the whooping cough patients in that study he keeps touting, then the odds of becoming infected are higher for unvaccinated kids than those who are vaccinated. He just doesn't get the concept of relative rates, and he's using the data incorrectly. It's kind of funny that he considers himself an expert in vaccines even though he can't even use data correctly. He insists upon having a "double blind study" for vaccines, which could never occur (and he knows it) because of the Hippocratic Oath, as it would involve doctors administering infections to kids who've not been vaccinated (i.e. given placebo). If we need to intentionally infect kids with deadly diseases in order to prove the vaccine works, God help us all. But that's what Robert would do if he were in their position. The very definition of armchair quarterback.

If only 1% of the population is unvaccinated and they're accounting for 11% of the whooping cough patients in that study he keeps touting, then the odds of becoming infected are higher for unvaccinated kids than those who are vaccinated.

If only 1% of the population is NOT vaccinated then you shouldn't have a problem with herd immunity. Something is amiss here.

You're vaccine that you want to force and coerce people to get FAILS.

http://www.kpbs.org/news/2010/sep/07/vaccinated-people-getting-whooping-cough-sd/

Vaccinated People Getting Whooping Cough In SD
Of the 332 confirmed cases of whooping cough in the county so far this year, 197 of the people who got sick were up to date with their immunizations. That's nearly 2 out of 3 cases.

You probably have a great chance of not knowing anyone who died from Pertussis or Measles either.

Chicken pox killed about 150 people every year till the vaccine was introduced, within a few years it dropped to about 60-70 people. More interesting was that the number of cases dropped from 4 million to under a million each year.

This results of that vaccine push over a decade ago wasn't reported very well in the US, but many nations with socialized medicine took note of our results and realized they would save money due to less hospital stays alone compared to what the vaccine would cost to buy.

Around 75% of all deaths for chicken pox are adults, so even though over 9 children have died from chicken pox already this year in the US... it will never be a newsworthy story due the vast physical distance between cases and the increased age of the inflicted.

anonymousintheaffirmative,

So you are counting on the herd to keep you and yours safe, because the herd received their needed vaccines. Well guess what, with the large numbers of ILLEGALS entering the herd, the overall effectiveness/protection is DROPPING, in the USA & EU.

You might want to move to where there are few immigrants and people that travel to these places or associate with them. With today's global mobility, good luck.

Remember the bird flu - H1N1, they closed my sons school two weeks ago because of the number of associated DEATHS. I bet that did not make the media attention, Ha! Ha!

The biggest problem today is overprotective parents that go for all the vaccination shots, and that run effectively sterile households. Of course kids should be vaccinated against the truly deadly and severely debilitating diseases. If it's not a particularly high death rate disease they want to vaccinate your child against (like chickenpox), then don't allow those particular vaccinations for your child. It's bad enough as it is with all the heavy metals found in most vaccines which will settle in the back of your child's brain.

And enough with the obsessive compulsive sterilizing of your home. If young children are rarely ever exposed to germs, their bodies do not develop healthy immune systems. This is exactly why the children these days are coming down with more serious illnesses than children of previous generations.

I had a previously healthy 3 year old patient who died of chickenpox (spread to her brain). She was not vaccinated because this was the year prior to the vaccine being released. I have had multiple patients who required hospitalization for IV antibiotics for cellulitis from chickenpox. Now with resistant bacterial cellulitis (eg. "flesh-eating strep") that can rapidly progress to fatality or severe disfiguring surgery, this is not a minor concern. Chickenpox is not always benign. Children who are infected with chickenpox (and not the weakened vaccine virus) are much more likely to develop shingles later in life. The bottom line is that if your child develops a severe complication from chickenpox or many of the other vaccine-preventable illnesses, you don't get a do-over. The damage is done. It's not a risk I would take with a child, especially one that I love.

. The bottom line is that if your child develops a severe complication from chickenpox or many of the other vaccine-preventable illnesses, you don't get a do-over. The damage is done. It's not a risk I would take with a child, especially one that I love.

The effectiveness of the chickenpox vaccine is not all that great.

http://www.medscape.com/medline/abstract/12477940

The effectiveness of the vaccine was 44.0 percent (95 percent confidence interval, 6.9 to 66.3 percent) against disease of any severity and 86.0 percent (95 percent confidence interval, 38.7 to 96.8 percent) against moderate or severe disease. Children who had been vaccinated three years or more before the outbreak were at greater risk for vaccine failure than those who had been vaccinated more recently (relative risk, 2.6 [95 percent confidence interval, 1.3 to 5.3]).

The chance of someone dying from chickenpox is similar to being struck and killed by lightning.

Chicken pox can be deadly for an adult-and if said adult is a woman who is pregnant it is compounded even more. She is looking at the loss of her child.......that sounds like a huge risk to take.

And without the vaccine, the effectiveness is 0%.

Robert, this is about pertussis, not chicken pox. We all agree that some vaccines are less important than others. But to use the argument that the chicken pox vaccine proves that all vaccines are worthless is total crap. Stick to the facts. These kids DIED because they didn't get vaccinated. I'd rather have millions of autistic kids than thousands of dead ones. You don't deal with autism on a daily basis, so you don't have a clue. They aren't vegetables, Robert. They're people like you and me, many of which are smarter than you. Better alive than dead.

These kids DIED because they didn't get vaccinated.

The government DOES NOT recommend for them to get vaccinated. They were not old enough. You should know this.

You wouldn't think chicken pox was dangerous, but two people in my family died from it. I'll never forget the night that we were called about my cousin dying from chicken pox.

Robert likes to make up his own statistics and argues a case that has been proven FALSE.

I'm sitting here looking at the recommended pediatric vaccine chart for 2010.....pertussis is recommended at 2 months of age. If you'd like to verify that, then you can just look at the CDC site. They used to recommend giving it at 6 weeks of age, so the 2 month figure may just be rounded for easy understanding. How do you expect anyone to take you serious about science when you can't even get the vaccine schedule right?

http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/recs/schedules/child-schedule.htm

How do you expect anyone to take you serious about science when you can't even get the vaccine schedule right?

I don't expect YOU to take me serious.

And without the vaccine, the effectiveness is 0%.

Really, you might want to check that emotional statement. People do have immune systems. I myself was exposed repeatedly to chickenpox as a child but never had clinical disease. People do have immune systems. Not everyone unvaccinated dies from infectious disease like you've been taught by the CDC and propagandists. The opposite is actually true. Of all the consciously unvaccinated I know (a lot) they have the healthiest kids in the world. I see lots of sick vaccinated kids on multiple rounds of antibiotics. All anecdotal of cours.

Has anyone out there ever read the side effects of a vaccine? you know the insert that comes in the pretty box no body gets to see before they get their shot's. 22 vaccine's seems like a lot for anyone to take on especially a baby. Do you know how the vaccines are grown? I have read they are grown from the cells off of the organs of animals. I would think this would cause cross species sicknesses of some kind or emerging viruses crossing DNA and RNA like that seems like scientists are playing god in some way . But then who am I to say. I have asked doctors if the vaccines come without risk and if so do are they guarantee immunity. The answer was no for both questions. All I heard was, "the benefits out way the risks."Excuse me but didn't you just say no to both of my questions? I wonder if vaccines are just a theory? where's proof? I know two people that had the swine flu vaccine and they both ended up in the hospital with pneumonia. Kinda weird. I'm sure there are thousands of people out there that have became very ill or even maimed from a vaccine or two? I also have two family members with autism and its really sad. Was there autism before vaccinations? you know a long long time ago? Sure does make a person wonder when you get informed and really think or even better read for your self about benefits and risk's. Who pays for the bills when a child dies shortly after being vaccinated, or is maimed by them? Oh wait the government changed the law, you cant sue the vaccine company's it has been changed so you have to go through a very long process to prove it, and after all of that you are broke from attorneys fee's. I guess there's always SSI disability you can apply for and then get your child on a waiting list because last I heard it was roughly 3 years for your child to be able to go to a special school. Unless of course you are loaded with lots of money then your child can go. I have both a very smart autistic woman in my family who donates her time to society and then my nephew who wasn't so lucky, he has no connection to reality. He has to take expensive medication that keeps him in line so he doesn't hurt him self or others. Its all alarming and we should be fully informed before putting anything in your body you do not know much about or really understand.

You may not 'know' anyone who has died from chickenpox (top message on this string.) Yes, parents when I was young would sometimes intentionally expose their children to "get it over with while young" since older infectees had more serious problems.

But I am aware of a young woman who was permanently blinded by shingles - it is caused by the same virus. The vaccine may or may not have prevented this, and blindness may be an unusual effect. But if a childhood vaccine would make this outcome less likely, it seems worth it.

Please do not think chicken pox is a harmless disease. My neighbor's son died of chicken pox after he developed the complication called Reye's syndrome. By the time my youngest child was born, the vaccine for chicken pox had been perfected, and I insisted that he be vaccinated. At age 16 he recently received his booster shot.

Also please remember that older people, who had chicken pox during childhood, can develop shingles. A lady in my community developed shingles and died very quickly when the disease went to her brain. There is a vaccine for shingles, and all adults should get vaccinated.

The concern about the vaccines is the mercury used in the preservative Thimerosol. I believe this preservative no longer is being used. People should ask their health care provider about the preservative in the vaccine and be sure there is no mercury or other potentially dangerous component.

Hi, Just thought you'd like to know that adults who had chicken pox as children are at an increased risk to get shingles after the age of 50. The chicken pox virus stays in the body and can be "re-activated" as shingles later in life as the two conditions are related.

Robert

I like how you mention the one study where the chicken pox vaccine was shown to be 44% effective and don't mention THE OTHER 7 STUDIES that the authors themselves mention that show the vaccine to be 71 - 100% effective for severe disease and 95 - 100% effective for moderate disease.

THATS CALLED LYING WITH STATISTICS ROBERT! SHAME ON YOU!!

How are we supposed to believe anything else you post when you've just shown you'll lie to make a point?

Oh, while we are on the side topic of chicken pox...

When I did my pediactric rotation in medical school, I had the experience of watching two children die of chicken pox in the PICU. Later, on my medical rotation, I had an adult who we had to paralyze and put on a ventilater for days because he had chicken pox on the lining of his brain and wouldn't stop seizing. I rotated off the ICU before they were able to wake him up but I heard later that the brain damage was impressive.

Yes, chicken pox can be a mild disease. But if you're the parent of one of the 4,000 children hospitalized or of the 100 that die, it won't seem so mild.

My father in law, who retired from the computer field after 25 years as a programmer, went from an independent snow bird to living with his son due to encephalitis from shingles. We almost lost him physically twice as he was fighting this and we have lost the person he was before to the lesions on his brain now that have reduced his cognitive skills and changed his personality and character forever. My youngest child was under a year old when this happened. He has lost his grandfather in so many ways that he will never know. Chicken pox/aka Shingles is not an innoccent mild virus.

It is a life long game of russian roulette. I chose not to play that game with my children's lives.

People do have immune systems. Not everyone unvaccinated dies from infectious disease like you've been taught by the CDC and propagandists.

Yes, but the young and elderly have WEAK immune systems, that are easily compromised because they are either not fully developed (young) or can no longer function at full capacity (elderly). This is specifically why vaccines are given to children...to HELP their immune systems deal with diseases that their bodies haven't yet seen. Those antibodies ward off these diseases with ease instead of taxing their developing bodies. As you said yourself, anyone can CARRY the disease/virus, but it doesn't affect those that have been vaccinated.

Maybe instead of asking us not to believe what the gov't tells us, maybe YOU shouldn't believe all those phony statistics you spout as "true". Like that the very few unvaccinated children accounted for 11% of the whooping cough outbreak. So that very tiny portion of unvaccinated children accounted for MANY MORE INFECTIONS than their population would otherwise be expected to produce. RELATIVE NUMBERS, Robert...statistics are not a strong point with you, are they?

How are we supposed to believe anything else you post when you've just shown you'll lie to make a point?

Show me where I lied, please. Just because you don't like what I said and it upset you doesn't mean it's a lie.

Show me where I lied, please.

Any of your messages that said that longer life and lack of disease has been attributed to better hand washing, etc. and had nothing to do with vaccines. As if the world population magically just started to live longer all -the-sudden.

Any of your "statistics" (i.e. all made-up, with no backing data) about vaccine and medical usage in the 1700s and 1800s. Yeah, I'm sure all that is backed up by data....rrrrrriiiiiight. Phony claims. Over and over again.

Enough lies, Robert. Back up your claims, or shut up.

Any of your "statistics" (i.e. all made-up, with no backing data) about vaccine and medical usage in the 1700s and 1800s.

you have a reading comprehension and context problem. Re read so you can understand. I would call what you've just said a straw man argument but you don't even understand that either.

You said it yourself. Things have gotten better since the 1700s and 1800s without the need for vaccines. I just wish you would back that up with empirical evidence. Oh wait, you don't have that. So we're supposed to just take you at your word.

You can't even understand simple statistics with your claim about the 89% who got whooping cough were vaccinated, meaning that the 1% of those who weren't vaccinated accounted for the 11%, making it much likelier for unvaccinated to get sick than the vaccinated. You couldn't even understand that the statistic you were using actually HURT your argument, yet you continue to use it to bolster your claim. If you can't understand simple statistics, how are we supposed to believe your arguments without facts to back them up?

Here are the facts: As vaccine usage rose, so did average lifespan (correlation). As polio, smallpox, etc. vaccine usage rose, these diseases were wiped off the map almost completely. As children today are remaining unvaccinated on a more frequent basis, outbreaks are more common for these diseases (these diseases are making a comeback and are on the rise, as you said yourself). There is an increase in the numbers of children dying from preventable diseases, which correlates to the children not vaccinated because of studies like Wakefield's.

Talk about study bias: Wakefield was set to profit from a new vaccine for MMR if his study was accepted by the scientific public. You think pharma companies are evil? He was set to sacrifice children's livelihoods all to make a quick buck by lying about the current vaccine. Pathetic, as is your argument. Just plain dangerous and without basis.

Tell me this, Robert. Why has autism increased without mercury in current childhood vaccines? Surely we'd see a decrease if most children were not seeing any mercury in their vaccines anymore. But no, it's still increasing. Suggesting SOMETHING ELSE is responsible. Period. Not up for debate. No mercury, still autism rising...mercury not the cause.

Robert

See my post 3.18 regarding your post 3.5

That is where you FLAT OUT LIED. Need me to go through it again for you?

You said it yourself. Things have gotten better since the 1700s and 1800s without the need for vaccines. I just wish you would back that up with empirical evidence. Oh wait, you don't have that. So we're supposed to just take you at your word.

http://genesgreenbook.com/resources/Natural_Infectious_Disease_Declines_Immunization_Effectiveness.pdf

Robert

See my post 3.18 regarding your post 3.5

That is where you FLAT OUT LIED. Need me to go through it again for you?

I wrote two sentences. Which sentence is a lie?

You just used VAERS as a valid scientific database, which it is not. It's a call center that ANYONE can call in symptoms, even parents. It is NOT a valid database. You mislead to the point of lying. Period.

So we're expected to believe in YOUR website just because you post it? How ridiculous!

As for your website, we're supposed to take 120-year old mortality data as cold hard fact? It could have been cancer, etc. and they would've called it TB, etc. UNRELIABLE. It was a GUESSING GAME back then. It's pathetic that you would take an obviously biased study for an obviously biased organization and use them as fact. LIE (again).

How about UNBIASED studies for once?

How about UNBIASED studies for once?

robert is very careful to pick only data and websites that back his position.

he's as bad as the creationists

robert is very careful to pick only data and websites that back his position.

he's as bad as the creationists

An atheist... I see.

That makes sense then.

As for your website, we're supposed to take 120-year old mortality data as cold hard fact?

And you take 70 year old data as cold hard fact? At what year is it a fact? LOL. Silly penguin.

You just used VAERS as a valid scientific database, which it is not. It's a call center that ANYONE can call in symptoms, even parents. It is NOT a valid database.

Penguin oh penguin? Do you know what a straw man argument is? Do you understand how its deceitful and fallacious?

even better, now are you going to tell us about the secret eugenics programs?

LOL

I like how you mention the one study where the chicken pox vaccine was shown to be 44% effective and don't mention THE OTHER 7 STUDIES that the authors themselves mention that show the vaccine to be 71 - 100% effective for severe disease and 95 - 100% effective for moderate disease.

You're immune system WITHOUT vaccination vs. varicella: 99.9999...% effective. No need for the vaccine.No need for the vaccine for the vast majority of people. Same with measles.

making people afraid of the chicken pox and telling they are defenseless unless they get the vaccine is lying.

Unless you like shingles.

Mass varicella vaccination is expected to cause a major epidemic of herpes-zoster, affecting more than 50% of those aged 10–44 years at the introduction of vaccination.

Robert -

chickenpox is not a mild virus. It never leaves your system. Catching chickenpox doesnt give you antibodies to the virus. Even if the initial outbreak doesnt kill you the re emergence of it years later can. Antiviral drugs only work about 50% of the time to control it when it re emerges in later life (shingles).Getting the initial virus in adult hood is VERY dangerous.

I think I speak for many of us here on the boards, take a break for a few days from your spin doctoring and misquoting of "stats"and "studies" to further your fact less support of the anti vaccine movement. Your Anti Vaccine fear mongering has to stop. And if you don't vaccinate your children, keep them away from the general population and any minors, immunocompromised or elderly in your family.

Catching chickenpox doesnt give you antibodies to the virus. Even if the initial outbreak doesnt kill you the re emergence of it years later can

Really? how does the vaccine work?

Maybe you should stop DISEASE MONGERING when you don't even understand basic facts. You are the direct result of a mass vaccinating propaganda machine. It's not good enough for you to get your own vaccine you BELIEVE everyone needs to be coerced in to taking all vaccines.

And you deny vaccines even in the face of direct evidence that refutes your point. Stop being anti-vaccines and start being "pro-facts". The minute you stop blatantly lying is the minute we start listening to your points. Until you stop misleading and lying, you cease to be an effective debator on this topic. You use biased sources and misuse statistics (89% vs. 11%, etc.).

You honestly believe that without any vaccines that there would be less disease? How foolish.

You're immune system WITHOUT vaccination vs. varicella: 99.9999...% effective. No need for the vaccine.No need for the vaccine for the vast majority of people.

yet I've known two people that caught it a second time.

rare, but not as effective as you claim.

good one. Couldn't let any posts go without a political spin comment. Especially one that blames a previous administration.

appreciate the humor.

Would like to see some statistics regarding chicken pox vaccine, my 12-year-old niece had been vaccinated, caught the disease anyway--not a "light" version of the disease, either. I have been told that the vaccine does not give lifetime immunity, not sure how many years a chicken pox vaccination is good for. I'm just curious, as my kids all had the disease, only the youngest could have received the vaccine, but she caught the disease first. If adults need booster shots--and don't get them--I could see an epidemic of young adults with chicken pox.

There was a recient death of an infant locally (Washington State) a few weeks ago. Child was from a community that did not immunize.

I live in Marin County (SF Bay area) and we have been hard hit by whopping cough. The other day a mom told me her son is not able to get immunizations as he has gone in to anaphylactic shock each time they have tried different shots. Apparently he was exposed this summer to a summer program that had most of the kids infected with whopping cough. For some reason he did not get it even after drinking from the same juice box as his friend. Who knows why some kids have better immune system than others but this mom claims to be a germaphobe who sanitized and washes her kids hands too much. One of the teachers aides who was a camp counselor at that camp chimed in the a great deal of the other children infected were said to have been immunized by their parents. I like erring on the side of caution myself but it does make me wonder. My 6 year old has had his shots but I also have used sanitizers and he has had maybe 7 colds in his 6 years, one flu and rarely gets what is going around. He has never even had an antibiotic. But my family is known for their naturally strong immune system. I hardly pick up anything going around. I dunno. Maybe it's partially genetic. My mom had no immunizations but rarely got sick, never had chicken pox or any other childhood disease.

I thought the public schools required kids be vacinated before they could enroll.

Unless the parents sign a waiver.

You are right. Kids are supposed to be vaccinated to go to school unless they sign a waiver. But what happens if these children get sick? There might be adults in the building that wasn't vaccinated for the diseases. Then they will have to close the school and check everyones records to find out who and when people were vaccinated. My children are up to date with there shots. I didn't get the chicken pox shot I had them. My mom had them and got shingles. VERY painful! My kids don't have autism from the shots. I didnt give my kids flu shots last year and they were fine. But this whooping cough thing is starting to get out of control! Why u looking at illegals? Maybe we should look at terrorists releasing a biological agent? It could be the work of homegrown terrorist. Stop blaming other people. We don't have polio because of the vaccine. But if everyone stops getting the shots, wait and see how fast it comes back! I am in school for Homeland Security and thats why I mentioned about the terrorist thing. It could happen!

Sara the biggest terrorists against the American people is the American government, the CDC, and FEMA. This article sounds like it was orchestrated by the CDC to scare people into getting vaccinated. Just like they did last year with the swine flu vaccine. They want to get parents to think they are bad parents if they don't get their children vaccinated. Like robots so many people do not think or question these vaccines, they just shoot them in their kids. People read and watch what the media says and take it as pure fact. But they never question where the information the media reported came from. If you read in between the lines of the news reports, you start to see obvious patterns. Then the news becomes predictable. I could see our own government releasing a biological agent to the masses because they are so tied to the pharmaceutical industry. There is profit in sick people because we are not people to them, we are revenue. I often wonder what the government is going to orchestrate that is going to fill up the 800 fully staffed but empty prisons scattered throughout the country. The largest being in Fairbanks AK, it can hold 2 million people. The population of Alaska is just under 700,000. They probably don't tell you that stuff at your school.

scott - why not visit the graves of the 9 dead infants? then you could verify the veracity of the news story. wait - take a shovel, you may need to exhume, just to make sure that the grand conspiracy didn't place little headstones over empty graves.

I sincerely hope similar articles are successful in scaring the masses into vaccination.

I would suggest you move to a country where the government is less scary for you - RUN, RUN AWAY from the government's release of NBC agents!!! lol

Mailman people die every day. Newborns to seniors. I had a doctors appointment today, she asked me if I wanted to get vaccinated. I told her no. She said she and many doctors don't get vaccinated either and that the people that manufacture the vaccines don't use what they produce. She said she had to ask though because its her job.

Stop watching the news and you will start to see that you become clear minded and are able to form you own opinion instead of it being made for you.

They don't put lead in paint any longer, but they inject mercury into your system in a vaccine. RUN RUN RUN, because without it your gonna die. Obviously you were snagged in like a fish by scare tactics.

Scott-718781,

My daughter is a Chem/Bio Engr in one of the newest Vaccine Production facility in the USA. They All receive the latest vaccines, because they are working with the latest flu and other virus's. Taking any vaccine is voluntary, but so is working in a high threat environment.

Thimerosal has been removed from or reduced to trace amounts in all vaccines routinely recommended for children 6 years of age and younger, 1 microgram or less of mercury per dose. There are vaccines available that contain NO mercury.

The H1N1 vaccine was administered to 350 million to 400 million people worldwide, including as many as 80 million Americans. In the US - Guillain-Barré syndrome effects ten to twenty people out of every 1,000,000 normally. Some studies have indicated that the seasonal flu vaccine might be associated with one additional case of the syndrome out of 1 million vaccinated. But, influenza itself can cause the syndrome and two investigations are ongoing.

Here is a dose of reality for you.

A total of 51,594 people have been reported to have caught flu since January. Lab tests confirmed 9,618 had the H1N1 strain. In Thailand, 80 flu fatalities were reported this year. Among those who died, 71 had H1N1. Out-patients seeking medical diagnoses at hospitals due to flu-like illnesses have jumped from an average of 5% to an unusually high rate of more than 10% in 25 provinces. And this is with over 30% of the population having already received the vaccine.

Yeah, don't ya just love them? Harry Reid & Robt. Menendez will give 14M illegal aliens citizenship A.S.A.P., keeping our unemployment at 10%, then we can brace for the next 20M.

How these doorknobs stay in office is beyond me.

I didn't realize that people who refused to understand and accept the importance of getting your kids their shots were now called illegal aliens. Learn something new everyday....

If you were that uninformed about the damage illegals are doing to us, you need to learn something new everyday.

Amen, along with every other cont. disease know to man including leprosy.

How these doorknobs stay in office is beyond me.

Um, being in the douchebag capital of the world helps alot.

Bri-1732738 do you also blame illegal aliens for your ignorance?

what about the damage being done by US citizens too stupid to vaccinate their children?

Mexicans are being warned about the Pertussis outbreak across the border (California) because Mexico does not have a whooping cough epidemic. Say what you want, but when it comes to healthcare, many of those countries whose citizens live in "squalor" have the US beat.

I would actually like to see all illegals kicked out of the US just to see how well Americans pick up the slack in the employment sector. Remember, an illegal alien didn't take your factory or desk job, your beloved all American Walmart shipped it overseas.

but it's sooo much easier for stupid people in the US to blame their problems on outsiders.

Most vaccines contain high levels of heavy metals.

This is mainly because the pharmaceutical companies run dirty production methods.

Vaccinations do NOT contain high levels of heavy metals. Mercury preservative was removed from all pediatric vaccinations in 1991. The only vaccinations left with low doses of ethylmercury is the flu vaccinations. There is a BIG difference between ethylmercury and methylmercury. Methylmercury is much more toxic and is the element measured by the EPA for toxicity. Take this analogy: low doses of ethylalcohol (wine and beer): pleasant feeling; low doses of methylalcohol (wood alcohol): blindness and death.

JP

"Most vaccines contain high levels of heavy metals."

That statement is false. You are spreading lies.

Hummm strange..after all of those tv commercials this summer about getting vaccinated for whooping cough.

" You know what hurts worse? Diphtheria." Needless to say she received all of the shots.

The psychological "trick" you played on your daughter is called a logical fallacy. It's when someone uses logic in a way that is not truthful. It's not cute. It disingenuous. Just because you daughter doesn't get a vaccine such as HPV does not mean that she will EVER get such a virus or will EVER suffer the the most severe consequences of it. Exactly the opposite. Most likely she will NEVER suffer even without a vaccine.

Well, current science shows that 4 out of 5 teenage girls have been infected with the HPV virus, so I would say that pretty much suggests that an average teen girl can totally expect to end up with the virus if she's not vaccinated. HPV, in case you didn't know, is what can lead to cervical cancer, which is not pleasant. (Search the Indiana University School of Medicine Study if you're interested.)

Momteacher, you keep up the good work of taking care of your girl!

Almost ALL HPV is cleared by a healthy body on it's own. The vaccine has not been shown to reduce the incidence of cervical cancer. It's for HPV. The evidence will take 20 years to gather. Until then you only have a theory.

All we ever have is a theory, and unfortunately parents have to do their best based on what information is available at the present. We don't always have 20 years to figure out the best course of action. Momteacher was not attempting to psychologically manipulate her daughter, and her decision to vaccinate was certainly a valid one. Parents can disagree, but it doesn't kill anyone to be respectful of someone else's decision. It's hard enough to be the one in charge of filtering huge amounts of conflicting scientific information (and often going against the advice of one's doctors in the process) without other people getting snarky about it.

It's hard enough to be the one in charge of filtering huge amounts of conflicting scientific information (and often going against the advice of one's doctors in the process) without other people getting snarky about it.

Lee, I can see that you're sincere. Sorry about the snarkiness but I've been at this debate for a long time and I frequently encounter the "professional elite" who have an agenda to mass vaccinate no matter what. They are almost always snarky and condescending.

I can respect a person's decision to vaccinate. I also expect a person to respect my decision to not vaccinate without baseless accusations of promoting disease.

If you read through these threads you can see that these "professional elite" have filtered down to lower levels of people parroting their (professional elite) cause. If I'm snarky, it's at the medical elite not the people who they puppet through. The majority of the people do not understand the underpinnings of what is going on here. This is not about pertussis in California.

Robert should work on a farm, he's good at spreading BS which seems to be the main content of his brain.

...which I will continue on you swiss miss.

Thanks for your reply, Robert. I appreciate it!

As for the HPV shot you might want to investigate that a little bit more. Notice how about a year a go it was being pushed everywhere? TV, print, radio, etc? And now do you hear about it? Nope and for a very good reason, Europe who had started mass vaccinations before the US started noticing, teenage girls dying, and becoming extremely ill.

As for other vaccinations, I believe we should vaccinate for the most common and deadliest diseases, my 16yo daughter's best friend was born in Russia and contracted polio, she functions just fine, drives, etc. But must walk with crutches and it has hurt her self-esteem, oh and her parents adopted her when she was 18mos old.

But some diseases are cyclic and Pertusis is one of them, usually going on a 3-5 year cycle. MN in 2005 had a major outbreak. It was found that the majority of the children that had contracted the disease over 50% had been immunized. (I tried to find the article that stated that but being so long ago it's not to be found, but you can google it for some information). As for saying that being immunized against anything will prevent you from contracting it is asinine, look at how many people every year get the flu shot and then get the flu. It's not a 100% guarntee but it's one that for the most part should be taken. Unfortunately I can't get the flu shot or measeals boosters, they're egg based and well, I get really sick from it, hospital sick.

And just for fun, I have 2 daughters one is 32 the other is 16. Both were raised basically the same they were allowed to get dirty and have fun. The oldest was immunized on time for everything available as she was growing up. She had more ear aches and bouts of tonsilits then I could ever count, and she went to a private school. My 16yo who was a preemie and because of this I held off on shots and spread them out, she did get all of them but over a longer period of time. She's so healthy it's great. In 16 years she's been on antibiotics less than a dozen times. So huge difference between the two girls. Genetics could account for some of it.

But in the end Pertusis does have a cyclic range and every 3-5 years we will see a spike somewhere. But children should be immunized. Also, parents please let your children start playing outside again, in the grass, sand, dirt, etc. In order to fight off bacteria and virus' they need to be exposed to a certain amount to build up their bodies immunities. Raising them in glass houses that sparkle does them no good. First you're not allowing them to be children, to explore, get dirty, have fun; second by trying to protect them from all those pesky dirty bugs you're actually hurting them, some bugs are good for you; and third by not allowing your child to go outside and burn off calories you're turning them into couch potatoes, where tv and video games are all there is to life; fourth by not allowing them time outside with their friends you're impinging on their imaginations and their ability to work out conflicts and finally you're making them afraid of everything and we're going to have more and more people with OCD.

Until then you only have a theory

I am so sick of this "it's only a theory" BS

I keep hearing uneducated idiots saying that for evolution, climatology, geology, etc.

all these idiots say that when they don't have a logical argument to hold up against reason. "oh, well, it's ONLY a "theory"...."

and they are too stupid and poorly educated to even understand what a scientific theory really is.

Gravity is "only a theory".

Um, gravity is a law. The law of gravity. Law and theory, not the same.

Can't resist,

Um, gravity is a law.

No. Like evolution and relativity, gravity is a theory. Here's how the word 'theory' is used in science:

As used in science, a theory is an explanation or model based on observation, experimentation, and reasoning, especially one that has been tested and confirmed as a general principle helping to explain and predict natural phenomena.

Any scientific theory must be based on a careful and rational examination of the facts.

Theories are well established by the factual evidence. Before a theory is given any credence in the scientific community, it must be subjected to "peer review." This means that the proposed theory must be published in a legitimate scientific journal in order to provide the opportunity for other scientists to evaluate the relevant factual information and publish their conclusions.

http://www.fsteiger.com/theory.html

The word 'theory' tends to be used in a different way by most people. 'Theory' means 'opinion' outside of scientific circles. In science, 'theory' means something that has been tested, re-tested, and provides the best explanation we currently have.

I am so sick of this "it's only a theory" BS

You are more than welcome to show us ALL that you have EVIDENCE that HPV vaccine prevents cancer. Not reasoning that it surely most certainly um er will. But actual evidence that it already has. You know like an experiment or something.

Before you waste your time on this fictitious paper you might want to find out how long cervical cancer takes to develop. You may also want to know something like the avg age of a cervical cancer patient is 49. You may also want to know at what age the subjects are getting the vaccine? You may want to know how long the clinical trials were before the vaccine was unleashed to the public. A few things to think about since you are so educated and everyone that doesn't vaccinate is just too stupid to understand what you already know.

I am so sick of the marketing surrounding the HPV vaccine. Getting the HPV vaccine DOES NOT prevent you from getting cervical cancer. There is no cancer vaccine.

And it is also a law. Newton's Law of Universal Gravitation. Law and theory, still not the same.

sorry can't resist, but it is still a theory, especially since Einsteins theory of general relativity supercedes Newton's "law".

Newton's "law" is good enough for general work, but it is also proven to have flaws, so it can't be much of a "law" can it?

actually, even GPS wouldn't work if we relied solely on Newton's "law" since relativistic effects of gravity on the GPS sattelites would quickly foul up all position and timing calculations . (a correction factor is regularly sent to all the sattelites based on the relatavistic effects of the Earth's gravity field.

I'm sure that retired physicist could explain it better (if he wanted to bother)

danwill,

actually, even GPS wouldn't work if we relied solely on Newton's "law" since relativistic effects of gravity on the GPS satellites would quickly foul up all position and timing calculations . (a correction factor is regularly sent to all the satellites based on the relativistic effects of the Earth's gravity field. I'm sure that retired physicist could explain it better (if he wanted to bother)

First of all, great explanation about GPS. You know your stuff.

As for defining 'scientific laws', I thought I already did. But thanks for adding to the discussion.

There is no such thing as a 'scientific law'. But a 'scientific theory' is NOT an opinion. A scientific theory is an hypothesis which has been tested, re-tested, verified, and proven able to predict.

To my great disappointment, many people don't seem to be able to understand the difference between 'opinion' and scientific theory.

Almost ALL HPV is cleared by a healthy body on it's own. The vaccine has not been shown to reduce the incidence of cervical cancer. It's for HPV. The evidence will take 20 years to gather. Until then you only have a theory.

Wow, where to begin, Robert? Yes, almost all HPV is cleared by the body. BUT, what you fail to mention is that the strains that cause HPV ARE NOT cleared. HPV has many strains, including the small ones for mouth sores, etc. But the dangerous ones (i.e. the ones this vaccine guards against) are not cleared. Add to it that the virus can be cleared, but it's effects stay, just like you may quit smoking, but the cell mutations that lead to cancer may still occur. So just eliminating the virus doesn't mean it won't cause the cancer down the line. Which is why young girls get it, so that they don't develop the cancer when they get older. It's so simple! How many times do you have to be taught this stuff? Or what's worse, YOU KNOW that this is the case, yet constantly mislead others to try and get your agenda to take hold. PATHETIC!

Me, too. Good luck to you!

I wondered about that also, isn't that counter-intuitive?

if you are on chemo or any kind of immunosuppressant, I would strongly recommend that you consult your doctor first.

there are always legitimate exceptions, and you could well be one of those.

Trust me I check with my Oncologist and Pharmacist on all issues, I just find it funny when you walk by one of these tables at a Walgreen's or CVS and they ask if you have had the vaccine, and when you say no it might kill you, they laugh and say oh no hunny it wont hurt.

good luck cz25, I hope you beat it cleanly and completely.

I blame it all on that Justin Beiber guy. He's an alien from the Great White North and the stuff I've heard from him on YouTube sounds like he has whooping cough. Or some disease.

What shocks me is that people scoff at actual doctors but blindly follow and believe a former Playboy bunny. That is how stupid our country has gotten. If someone is educated, people are afraid of them but if someone is an uneducated bimbo, that person's word is gospel.

If someone is educated, people are afraid of them but if someone is an uneducated bimbo, that person's word is gospel.

clearly part of the "dumbing down" of America.

This country has had a long history of being afraid and hostile towards people who are educated. Think about a common conversation when a parent brags about their child starring academically but not athletically: "But aren't you afraid he or she won't be well-rounded if he or she devotes his or her time to studying?" How many parents would say the same about another's child who is starring athletically but not academically? "But aren't you afraid he or she won't be well-rounded if he or she devotes his or her time to football, soccer, basketball (you name the sport)?"

No "red-blooded" American would even consider such a comment about an athletic star, but an academic star is almost automatically thought to be unbalanced.

It really makes me glad I spent all those years and $$ going to med school. I should have just posed nude and saved myself 12 years of education!

I hear ya. I am just wasting my time with my psych studies, I know but I just don't have the bod for Playboy and I refuse to get implants. So, I guess I am just going to have to do this the unfeminine way......I have to get an education!

It really makes me glad I spent all those years and $$ going to med school. I should have just posed nude and saved myself 12 years of education!

Were you hazed and deprived of sleep during this time? Were you given information during this vulnerable time? Was your career threatened if you didn't obey?Military's use this technique to brainwash people. Did you ever question the basis of what you were taught?

Sorry no Robert.

No hazing. Wasn't threatened. Yes I did learn a LOT of information. Something I continue to do through the course of my career.

It's med school Robert, not Stalag 13. You need to quit reading so much science fiction.

robert is really showing himself for the paranoid nutcase he really is with that last comment.

the truth comes out...

what truth? Danwill, aren't you an atheist? Do you believe in no god?

and how would my religious belief or lack of religious belief be relevant to this discussion of vaccinations?

in no way whatsoever.

my comment earlier was regarding your use of tactics similar to what the creationists use, which is to cherry-pick data to fit the view that you want to push, instead of letting the data itself lead to the conclusion.

I hold Jenny McCarthy personally responsible for every single child that dies. I hope she feels good about herself.

1) Jenny McCarthy has concerns about vaccine safety, true. But she is not anti-vaccine.

2) Do you honestly think the hispanic parents of these nine 3-month old infants have ever heard of Jenny McCarthy, or her concerns about vaccine safety? Really? JM has nothing to do with these nine infants dying from complications of pertussis infection.

3) In addition, Jenny McCarthy supports the pertussis vaccine (see her website Gen Rescue). Thus, your point here is completely moot.

It is completely false to say that McCarthy is against all vaccination.

She does advise certain precautions (and these were developed by Donald Miller MD and board-certified pediatrician Jerry Kartzinel MD, FAAP). This is the exact quote from her website:

http://www.generationrescue.org/vaccines/vaccines

1) Consider delaying vaccines until your child is 18-24 months old.
2) Do not vaccinate if your child is taking antibiotics.
3) Consider no more than one vaccine per doctor's visit.
4) If you plan to get the MMR vaccine, ask your doctor to give it in three separate vaccines for measles, mumps and rubella.
5) Consider giving high doses of Vitamin C (3,000-5,000 mg per day) on the day before, of, and after vaccination.
6) If your child experiences any developmental delays, stop vaccinating until you learn more.
7) With the measles vaccine (MMR), consider high doses of Vitamin A (5,000 IU or more) on the day before, of, and after vaccination.
8) If your child has an adverse reaction to a vaccine, stop vaccinating until you learn more.
9) Always ask to see the vaccine insert, and never accept a vaccine that uses the preservative Thimerosal (ethyl mercury). For a complete list of vaccines with thimerosal, see the website of the Johns Hopkins School of Public Health. Note: most flu shots today still contain thimerosal.

http://www.vaccinesafety.edu/thi-table.htm

The above vaccination recommendations are also supported by other prominent, board-certified pediatricians such as Robert "Bob" Sears MD FAAP, and Jay Gordon MD FAAP.

john

7) With the measles vaccine (MMR), consider high doses of Vitamin A (5,000 IU or more) on the day before, of, and after vaccination

use beta carotene instead of vit A, Vitamin A is toxic in large doses, Beta carotene is a Vit A precursor that is non-toxic.

hmm, no response from robert regarding what theology has to do with this....

so are you an atheist?

is it relevant?

do you think vaccination is some satanic plot?

I haven't asked you any personal questions

is it relevant?

To the question of mass vaccination it is.

Metaphysical views matter.

What is the nature of this universe?

What is the nature of man?

I don't care about your religion. Whether you believe in G-d, any god is important. If you believe that the human mind is the highest power is important.

Metaphysical views matter.

If you have a religious viewpoint that says that you shouldn't be vaccinated, then fine, I can accept that. but please don't try to wrap religious reasons up in pseudo-science to make those reasons anything other than what they are.

there are people who will attempt to "pray away" easily cured , yet fatal medical conditions. I think they are foolish, yet within their rights. and frankly, they make great examples of evolution in action.

and the answer is skeptical agnostic. give me hard proof, and I'll change my mind.

and the answer is skeptical agnostic.

That is discernible.

there are people who will attempt to "pray away" easily cured , yet fatal medical conditions. I think they are foolish, yet within their rights. and frankly, they make great examples of evolution in action.

What does that have to do with mass vaccination?

it has as much to do with mass vaccination as metaphysics does.

but like I said, if you have a religious reason for not wanting it for yourself or your family, then I'm OK with that

I do and I appreciate it.

Yea, those dam chinese

Is there a store near you with Outbread? Lucky dog.

I like mine with rasberry jam.

I completely agree with you. I have two autistic sons myself and I know for a fact vaccinations are not to blame. I even held off on my second son's vaccinations to "protect" him, and he was diagnosed anyway. I felt completely duped. But he is now caught up and I try and spread the truth about vaccinations when I can

My daughter has Asperger's, my son is autistic. Guess where it came from. Not from immunizations.....FROM ME! I didn't get diagnosed until my daughter was diagnosed and that was because the clinic I took my daughter to strongly urged me to get evaluated. I, too, have Asperger's. Looking at my dad's side of the family, it seems to run in it.

were you and your children vaccinated?

oh give up the disinformation campaign, robert.

oh give up the disinformation campaign, robert.

please correct me if i'm wrong. I'm listening.

Yes, we have all been vaccinated. And, every study out there has proven that there is no correlation between vaccination and autism. It is statistically impossible. The rates would be much, much higher. Also, ASD is a spectrum disorder, which can run from complete debilitation to Asperger's. For vaccinations to do that would be a miracle. We have seen what hard metal poisoning can do and it has yet to do anything close to this.

Ok, what school system are your kids going to? matter of fact what third world country? Last time I checked unless you had a VALID Immunization record from a LICENSED Doctor, you could not register your child in any public school, some states such as florida require a form Blue Immunization card, which they "doctors"must fill out for you to registar your child.

The laws differ state to state. In all states you can get a medical waiver, meaning that your child must have a doctor's statement that he cannot get the vaccine. Some states allow a "religious" waiver, in case some vaccines are against a parent's religion. And some states allow a "philosophical" waiver, which covers the Jenny McCarthy crowd.

You can enroll your kids in school without immunizations. The parents are allowed to fill out a form/waiver and their kids can go-at least to a public school. I personally think that it is crazy to allow the practice but schools are doing it because so many parents that don't want to vaccinate are claiming discrimination.

Yeah, that'll sure stop them from coming here.........ILLEGALLY.

I'm pretty sure they could get free immunizations if they tried. I see it all the time.

They already do get the option of free imunizations in CA. It's called welfare (medi-cal).

Yacht, I was thinking more like their mistresses 10k boob job, and don't forget the private jet to hide his "business trip with said bimbo" to the Riviera for two weeks on the exclusive yacht that he's renting for her at 450k a week.

Drug companies often lose money on vaccines, because they have to sell them at discounts for state/federal health programs. Vaccines are probably one of the greatest scientific advancements in human history--created long before drug companies existed. Not everything is a conspiracy to grab cash or oppress you. Sometimes when someone says, "you should vaccinate your kids," there is evidence to back up the statements. Try putting the tin foil hat down and reading with your not-crazy eyes.

WOW, two of them together spreading their nonsense and left wing pandering. Bet they were educated in California or some other socialistsoicialist system that failed to teach thinking. Neither of them has ANY proof.

Hey, I'm a California native, educated there. Not all of us are uneducated, naive, ignorant or socialists. Quit with the California citizen bashing please.

CA Skeptic,

Have you checked which demographic is becoming infected and the ages involved? I have.

Hispanic babies are DYING and many are too young to have received any vaccines. This points to the PARENTS not being vaccinated and they are spreading the disease, to the children.

Legal Immigrants are required to have their vaccinations, prior to or very shortly after arrival in the USA. Due to this requirement, the ILLEGALS seem to be the cause.

Where are the Liberals on this one?

I immigrated from Canada (I know that sounds funny) and I got put through the ringer! TB x-rays, blood work and all boosters that had to be performed by a US immigration doctor. At the time I couldn't believe it but looking back I'm happy they do it the way they are.

I know for a fact that the legals ARE being checked so that only leaves the obvious. Ticks me bad that all I had to do was really just jump a wall or something instead of the interrogation and loops I went through just to marry an American (and a mighty fine one at that ).

We've had three girls since then and we vaccinate...wouldn't think twice about not doing it.

Public schools do let children who are not vaccinated register for school...just sign the waiver! Ugh!

We are in NY state and pulled our kids form the system..we go private now. It costs us but you get what you pay for.

Don't play Russian roulette with your kids.

Fred you know where they are, they want to fix the problem, yet only if they can grant amnesty and use this issue to gain an immidate 15 to 20 million voter advantage in future elections.

As usual this is proof that Liberal politicans and hacks are full of hot air when then say they want to help people. They are disingenous slime who do little to help others unless it in some way benfits themself. Just take cival rights, LBJ once phillibusterd the Cival Rights Act in 1958 when he was Senate Majority leader and the President was a Republican named Eisenhower.

Yet we all know what happend after JFk was shot LBJ became President and then backed the same Cival Rights legisltaion he blocked 1958!

So for any Commie Lib from the Centers For American progress patrolling this site, please answer me why did LBJ do this ?

Was LBJ a racist pig pretending to be a Cival Rights Champion ?

Or was LBJ the epitome of a self serving political hack who was willing to throw minotities under the bus in 1958 when a Repbulican was president yet turned around 5 yrs later and passed the same legislation a Repbulican had pushed 5 yrs earlier.

Yet somehow in the last 50 yrs LBJ and his party thanks to their hacks in the Government Media Complex somehow convinced the public, that the party (Republicans) who freed the slaves and originally pushed for Cival Rights legislation in 1958 were somehow the ones against it when it is a MATTER OF HISTORICAL FACT DEMOCRATS BLOCKED CIVAL RIGHTS IN 1958 WHEN REPUBLICANS WERE IN OFFICE AND FIRST BROUGHT THE CIVAL RIGHTS ACT TO THE FLOOR OF THE SENATE !

Where are the Liberals on this one?

Getting their shots!!

Fred, here's a problem that you haven't bothered to learn about. In the very liberal state of Massachusetts, immunizations are covered by the state. In California, you have to pay for them out of your pocket OR you have to get your health insurance to cover it. This is just one of the contributing factors to why California is having such a huge abreak. In addition, the problem of the Jenny McCarthy foolishness on immunizations has compounded the problem And the reason the hispanic children are dying has nothing to do with them being illegal. It has to do with them having fewer resources and waiting too long BEFORE they take their children to the hospital. The racism that you and CA Skeptic are displaying is based hopefully on ignorance and a poor understanding of herd immunity and the economics of health policy from state to state.

Ok one correction it was 1957 not 1958 !

Thanks Differnet, you answered my question.

Actually, AC Robinson, yes, I have checked the statistics. (See http://www.cdph.ca.gov/programs/immunize/Documents/Pertussis%20report%209-14-2010%20-%20For%20Release.pdf.) However, I am having difficulty finding where in the government's report it distinguishes between the deaths of ILLEGAL Hispanic residents and the deaths of LEGAL Hispanic residents/CITIZENS. I would appreciate your pointing that out to me, if you would be so kind.

With regard to your comment that "Hispanic babies are DYING and many are too young to have received any vaccines. This points to the PARENTS not being vaccinated and they are spreading the disease, to the children," that is nothing but pure speculation. Again, neither the government report (to which I have provided a link, above) nor the article which is the topic of this discussion indicate which of the deceased children's parents were vaccinated and which were unvaccinated. As others in this discussion have noted, vaccines do not guaranty that one will not fall ill to the disease against which one is vaccinated. The current outbreak could be due to a mutation in the bacteria that cause the disease; it could be due to infections of B. parapertussis instead of B. pertussis (the latter of which is the ONLY strain of bacteria targeted by the pertussis vaccine); it could be due to the general cyclic nature of these infections, as others have noted; it could be due to any number of things. Who knows?

Quoting the government report cited above, "Overall rates by race/ethnicity are highest in whites (9.8/100,000), however age-specific rates indicate that the highest rates are seen in Hispanic infants <6 months of age (229/100,000)." So it seems that, overall, WHITES - not Hispanics - are falling ill to pertussis in the greatest numbers in California. (By the way, I'm white...since I know that will come up in any future posts in reply to this one.)

As an aside, may I ask... Since you have such great faith in vaccines, I would hope that you and your family are fully vaccinated. Why, then, are you so frightened of the unvaccinated? Are you and your family not fully protected?

In response to Differnet's comments, I would ask that you re-read my original post prior to labeling me a racist. If what I wrote was not clear, I will try to clarify it here: It is unreasonable and dishonest for anyone to blame a single ethnic group for the ills of a society, particularly, as is the case here, when the true culprit is a bacterium. There. Now, is that racist?

Health officials say the nine deaths occurred in babies too young to be fully immunized against the illness.

All nine deaths so far this year have been among infants under 3 months old, with eight of the nine fatalities, Hispanic.

If the Parents have US Visas they have received the vaccination, if they are ILLEGALS then they are probably the source of the infection, given to their child.

The antivax movement or Illegal immigrants could be blamed for this particular epidemic, BOTH can be directly or indirectly tied to lower vaccine rates. However we must await any pending evidence , the demographics will tell the TRUE story.

My family and I have ALL of our required vaccines. But you are right I'm concerned about those that are NOT. Because most vaccines are only 85% effective and when I take a 19+hour plane ride. I do not want my family or myself to catch something from a PLAGUE Carrier.

Excuse me, but there are lots of ways a baby can contract whooping cough other than through the parent. They go out to say a doctor's office, where a child infecrted is sitting not far away from them. God, you people. Children are dead and all you can think about is banging your little political drun. The real point of this is that we no longer have herd immunity because of idiots like Jenny McCarthy and you.

Th problem is the PC people and those that are not willing to hold themselves or others ACCOUNTABLE.

Innocents die everyday due to people like YOU.

because of idiots like Jenny McCarthy and you.

Innocents die everyday due to people like YOU.

Not even worthy of a response...

Must be Bush's fault....yea that's it, GEORGE YOU BASTARD.

We used to have health inspections for immigration, so that Third World Nation's rampant diseases didn't become US rampant diseases--but now the Democrats need votes from Mexico and states south, that just happen to have, rampant diseases, and President Obama has to have open borders for votes--so we have eradicated diseases to re-eradicate. Isn't that just wonderful? How many illegal aliens do you know who had all their vaccinations before crossing the border?

I say we put out the word that when you cross the border you're gonna get vaccinated whether you like it or not. Give the Boarder Patrol officers vaccination needles instead of guns.