Dems need to better publicize the benefits of the health care law.

Benefits...how about benefits vs cost. The cost far outweigh the benefits.

France has good public health care, and the average Frenchman lifestyle is on about 60% that of the average American. Are you willing to take a 30% cut in you lifestyle?

The republican strategy is guaranteed to fail to accomplish its stated goal (which is really just empty political grandstanding designed to fool the ignorant). What it is guaranteed to do is waste millions of taxpayer dollars on hearings, studies, attorneys, etc. and grow the size of government as HHS and other agencies are forced to hire more people to deal with the roadblocks thrown in by the GOP. They will not have have a veto proof majority therefore they will not be able to rule by decree. They will be forced to compromise if they want to accomplish anything.

It is too bad we can't get rid of the gift we gave to special interests when we passed the insurance special interest bill. Even the government has stated that costs will increase more under this plan than if we had done nothing. While nothing isn't a good plan either, this new plan is going to cause serious issues for states. Get ready for tax increases America. Not just the rich will have to pay their taxes. Now everybody is going to have to pay their "fair" share.

It is widely accepted that our government wastes an excessive amount of every dollar they spend on bureaucracy and over priced garbage. I know this is a fact because I work for our government and see them spending over 1000 dollars on a lobby chair, when an identical chair would cost 100 dollars. I could go on and on with examples of this type of waste, but then my post would be longer than the article I'm responding to. The waste I see is the exact same thing that happens in every branch of our government. The new healthcare scam will be no different. Be ready to see our government spend 10,000 dollars for something that would normally cost under 1,000.

If the people running this country really cared about the country, they could get more things done with half the money they rob from us every year.

joe mota..."What it is guaranteed to do is waste millions of taxpayer dollars..." is that what you're worried about? Wasting mere millions of dollars?

Obamacare, after being passed, was within weeks estimated to cost many BILLIONS, and long term perhaps TRILLIONS more than the CBO estimated. The government can't do much of anything efficiently. Medicare has over $30 TRILLION dollars in unfunded liability. There are tens of millions in Medicare fraud.

Are you really that worried about taxpayer dollars?

"I think we need to make the case for what we would replace it with," he (Rep. Paul Ryan, R-Wis) says. "We need to give the country an alternative system that's fiscally responsible, one that gives patients ownership and choice and one that does not create brand new entitlements."

Wouldn't it have been far better to come up with this gem a year and a half ago? Or better still, seven or eight years ago?

hs, the tea party marches around endlessly complaining about how government wastes money. I'm just pointing out that the GOP's plan will waste some more of it. CBO declared HCR to be deficit neutral, but their analysis did not include the benefits of reducing ER vistits because more people will have coverage or the benefits of more people getting preventative care. Many of the benefits of the HCR, like improved recordkeeping, are hard to quantify. Intelligent experts debate the effectiveness of different provisions. Meanwhile partisan blowhards make up numbers to frighten people with and fools believe them.

joe..."Meanwhile partisan blowhards make up numbers to frighten people with and fools believe them." And meanwhile partisan blowhards make up numbers to suck people in with and fools believe them.

Being an independent, and not a tea party member, I'm fed up with both parties and their constant, incessant partisan bickering.

joe..."the tea party marches around endlessly complaining about how government wastes money." I find it interesting that when cutting medicare benefits is suggested as a way of reducing government size and taxes, tea party members, many who are old enough to collect medicare, start fishtailing.

Republicans and tea baggers should have to go to every funeral of the children that die as a result of the lack of coverage they are attempting to repeal. Those of you pushing for repeal should go as well. Then go to church, and explain to god how it was not your greed and selfishness that led to these deaths. I love the church going right who forget their sermons the minute they leave church! I like roads, the dea, FBI, bridges, fire departments, teachers, the army,ect... Those things cost money and we all have to do our share and sometime more than our share. If you have a flat-screen tv, two cars, a house, healthy children, and a job, your living the american dream. So many will never have those things. I worked hard to get those things but I know that god would want me to work just as hard to give others the same chance. Republicans lack of humanity disgust me and it should disgust all real americans

TiredofMcBush... I agree. It's disgraceful the number of children in this country who, through no fault of their own, live in poverty in a dead end community with little or no opportunity to get out. I don't care about their parents. It's the kids that get to me. Every child born on this earth deserves a decent chance at life. Yet we throw money away on needless wars, tax subsidies for oil companies, lavish pensions for public employee union members, etc, etc, and then claim we can't afford to pay tax dollars for decent schools and food for innocent poor children in our own country.

California's major insurer Aetna just received approval from the state for a 19% increase - a 1 year increase, following existing law.

Exactly how did the dimwits in DC manage to pass such a wonderful law, that continues to allow these kinds of increases? I'll tell you how. The cowards created a giant bureaucracy that will take 5-10 years to build. They are allowing the existing market to run amok, with everyone knowing the "deadline" is coming.

So much for government oversight, government responsibility, etc... these cowardly criminals should all be in prison.

Health insurance is a stupid method of managing healthcare. Doing so on a national level is pure insanity.

Name 3 federal government programs that are not rife with fraud, abuse, criminal activity and out of control budgets - yeah, you can't. "Federal" management is impossible - the beast is too big and the criminals are too good at defrauding systems of this size, not to mention the bureaucrats that have, by the thousands, found good high paying jobs that require little to no actual effort.

We cannot afford these federal programs - this all must stop. Most should or could be managed at the state or local level. Some should not exist at all. The rest (like the military) need a 30-50% cut in funding. Bring all of our military home from every nation around the world. Let everyone take care of themselves. We can no longer afford to be the worlds watchdog, the police of the globe.

Lincoln himself would be ashamed of the "Party of NO." Health Care legislation is law now. The country needs jobs more than anything else right now so what do the dimwitted Republicans want???.........to fight the same God Damn battle over Health Care again! What a bunch of Morons. You Brain Dead Republican Representatives to Congress put the Lowly Lemming to shame! None of you morons have brains to pour piss from a boot......let alone stay away from that approaching CLIFF!!

Wouldn't it have been far better to come up with this gem a year and a half ago? Or better still, seven or eight years ago?

...How about one from 1993? During the whole healthcare debacle (while the closed door meetings, backroom deals, kickbacks and bribes were happening), Republicans in the house tried to introduce HR 3400. You've probably never heard about it because it wasn't even considered.

By the way - Where's Waldo - the brain dead Democrats were fighting a health care debate at a time when job loss was skyrocketing. Where were you at that time? Our President and Congress spent hundreds of billions on a stimulus plan that resulted in unemployment increasing from 8% to 9.6%. Brilliant job.

Paul..."The cowards created a giant bureaucracy that will take 5-10 years to build."

At the bottom of this webpage is flow chart of the ensuing bureaucracy you mention:

http://www.house.gov/apps/list/press/tx08_brady/pr_100728_hc_chart.html

Download it and try to understand. Doesn't take long to get overwhelmed.

Tired: While, it is true that there are cases where certain people need the compassion of others, there are a lot more people out there who simply want something for nothing.

And that's all that there is to it. Certain people might not understand that, but please, try and understand this:

Nothing is free. That said, I know several people employed by large insurance companies. They have described in oversimplified detail how this bill will effect you and I. And it is simple. While they admit some kind of change was necessary, Gov't take over is not the answer.

What most of the public is not aware of is that many of these larger companies DO NOT have the huge profit margin Obama and those idiots in Washington say is there. Some years, they lose money! I understand this is shocking, but think about it:

If doctors treat people who are uninsured, they receive no income from them, and thus have to charge more for the individual care, and of course, charge more to the insurance companies, who in turn have to charge more to those who have insurance.

In a perfect world, money would not be an issue, but that's just not the case on earth. Now, Obama thinks he can ask these insurance companies to DO MORE with LESS. Many of them are already losing money, due to the situation. How does this bill help? It WILL RAISE PREMIUMS, that much more. I mean, really, that is quite simple. It may include even more people, who will not be paying anything still, and then, guess what? The standard of care goes down, for those who have, and will continue, to pay.

Bummer. Guess that Obamacare doesnt sound quite as cool now...

Why should I have to pay for other people's healthcare, McBush? Its sad that children die through no fault of their own but I feel that I shouldn't have to pay for it through taxes, which I will.

the simple facts that the left always want to conveniently forget about is that 1: we can't afford this health care legislation, and 2: the federal government should NOT be involved in what is plainly a state issue. it's nothing more then a power grab at states rights. until people start to understand that the federal government has over reached it's authority on this they will never understand the rights opposition to it. i'm all for health care insurance reform but this is not the answer. i'm an out of work contractor that has lost my health care coverage, this plan would certainly benefit me in the long run but at what cost. we need less federal involvement in our lives not more. repeal this train wreck and boot everyone that voted for it out of office.

Why should I have to pay for other people's healthcare

Thomas Paine you have been paying for other people's health care for years. It is one of the government's biggest expenditures, and taxpayers pay for it. We would pay less in the long run. Let's quit paying for corporate welfare and then come back and talk to me about this. I would rather pick up the tab for someone who is down on their luck than for some multi-billion dollar corporation who is outsourcing American jobs to a communist country so they can increase their already fat bottom line.

for most low income and no income people even if they can't get medical card their children can, i know too many people who do it where i live, and i know people who aren't low income who have medical cards for their kids also and make as a couple over 60k a year. so if children are dieing from lack of health care it is because parents won't take them to the doctor or poor doctors, and this was back during bush's terms even. it make me wonder what is going on. and thanks to the increase in insurance providers taxes we will pay more form premiums. because compaines don't pay taxes they past them on to us. i see no easy way to get good affordable insurance with way both pparites are plus the 27 tax increases we have already gotten since Preisdent Obama has went into office. trying to figure out how they came to be but see the difference on my pay check.

hs321

Obamacare, after being passed, was within weeks estimated to cost many BILLIONS, and long term perhaps TRILLIONS more than the CBO estimated.

By who? Newt Gingrich? Rush Limbaugh? Karl Rove? Do you have any credible sources for this otherwise fact-free assertion?

Thomas Paine CS:

If you ever spend any time in the hospital, other people will be paying for your care, because the amount you paid in insurance premiums will not cover it. For example, two years ago my wife had a simple out-patient procedure. No complications, no overnight stay. The bill for this was $30,000. Thirty thousand dollars. I figured it up, and it came to almost $80 per minute.

For that matter, if you have insurance, other people are already paying for your care. That's how insurance works. You make a bet that you will not be healthy, and the insurance company bets that you will. It's a perverse system, where you "win" by losing, getting sick and using more care than you paid for.

Also, if your house ever catches fire, put it out yourself. Why should I have to pay to put out a fire at your house?

It is extremely important to the Republicans to make sure that the proposed and approved non-profit institute to compare the effectiveness of similar drugs does not ever see the light of day. The pharmaceutical industry is lobbying the GOP heavily to make sure this idea is killed.

Many currently FDA-approved drugs provide no lasting benefit and around 30% of all new drugs approved by the FDA perform no better than a placebo (a sugar pill) except that they have side effects and a sugar pill does not. There is a great variation in how effective similar drugs perform and the drug companies want to keep it that way. Because if a legitimate comparison were done, it would likely determine that one statin, for example, performed much better than its competitors. Think about all the competing drugs and what would happen to those that performed less well.

France has good public health care, and the average Frenchman lifestyle is on about 60% that of the average American. Are you willing to take a 30% cut in you lifestyle?

hs321 - I find this to be an interesting comment. Are you measuring one's lifestyle by their net income? It seems that France has topped the list 5 years running as having the best quality of life. So I think Americans sometimes are disillusioned into thinking that money buys happiness, when it seems that those who support this theory are some of the most miserable people I have ever seen.

RV in GB#1

Wouldn't it have been far better to come up with this gem a year and a half ago? Or better still, seven or eight years ago?

...How about one from 1993? During the whole healthcare debacle (while the closed door meetings, backroom deals, kickbacks and bribes were happening), Republicans in the house tried to introduce HR 3400. You've probably never heard about it because it wasn't even considered.

By the way - Where's Waldo - the brain dead Democrats were fighting a health care debate at a time when job loss was skyrocketing. Where were you at that time? Our President and Congress spent hundreds of billions on a stimulus plan that resulted in unemployment increasing from 8% to 9.6%. Brilliant job.

Every economist; every lay person; probably even most honest Republicans who would find the gumption to admit it, would say that WE wouldn't have had to have gone through THE worst economic recession the planet has seen, EVER, if it hadn't been for the former President and the REPUBLICAN controlled Congress' spend thrift ways for the last two administrations. Everyone knows that Obama was handed a one point two TRILLION DOLLAR DEFICIT from George the Second. Where were your buddies while thieves like Bernie Madoff were screwing the piss out of investors. Who was watching the Investment Banks while they were doing just as they pleased with absolutely NO oversight. Your buddies the Republicans were in control of the Presidency and SIX years of the previous eight years in Congress. Now the Idiots want to show us how things should be done? Where were they the last two years? They certainly weren't trying to help the millions put out of work by your ineffectual previous administration and Congress! The GAO says that continuing the tax cuts will add another FOUR TRILLION DOLLARS to the Deficit. Brilliant move RV......

However they help, is fine with me. I AM STUCK PAYING THE BILL FOR INSURANCE I AM NOT ENTITLED TO USE.

Babies and children are getting health care but an adult with pre-existing conditions is still on their own.

I do not have children because of the expense and time for me and I chose a career.

I get very angry that I am stuck having to pay for the kids that other people have that they can not afford.

The Republicans realize that even with a majority, Obama would probably veto any changes, but it's worth trying. I support them. This bill was and is an abomination.

You pay for it either way. WE have been paying for people without insurance long before the health care bill.

I am avidly opposed to this new healthcare system. NO, I am not rich, I'm a poor college student. I do not want other people paying for my poor heath (and YES, I have moderately high medical expenses for severe asthma).

It really is that simple... I wouldn't want to pay for other peoples short comings, so I don't want them paying for my own. Any form of nationalized health care is a huge mistake. It is not the governments job to tell me what I should or should not do. I pay them to protect me from foreign threats, to lay out infrastructure, to politically represent me to the rest of the world, to lay out trade and immigration policies with other nations, and to make and ENFORCE (for Gods sake) basic laws (like: do not kill, do not steal, do not rape, do not destroy/vandalize, do not extort, do not drive wrecklessly, etc...)

I DO NOT pay them to tell me what light bulbs to use, what type of insurance I should have (if any at all), what I should or should not eat (regarding high taxation on unhealthy foods), what I should drive (CO2 scrubbers exist... for some reason the environmentalist groups are against them?!? Jesus... Seriously, look up CO2 scrubbers).

I also do not pay them to moderate media in any way (fairness doctrine), invest MY MONEY in companies they see fit, use MY MONEY to bail out crap companies, and use MY MONEY to enforce a debt-dependent society.

If people want to live their lives using debt as a tool, thats fine by me... their choice. But using MY MONEY to encourage borrowing money is absurd.

It's all the same thing... health care, bailouts, incentives (still personally debating over incentives for farmers, it certainly would be a bother to have food prices hiked substantially), huge... HUGE government. I don't want it! How much % of this countries population will need to be working for the government (or on government money [which is MY MONEY]) before people start realizing that we are indeed living in a nation of expanding government control?

Bravo K-Chad.... encouraging to see the at one of the younger generation has their eyes open because you are the ones that will be most affected by the results of this....

I DO NOT pay them to tell me what light bulbs to use, what type of insurance I should have (if any at all), what I should or should not eat (regarding high taxation on unhealthy foods), what I should drive (CO2 scrubbers exist... for some reason the environmentalist groups are against them?!? Jesus... Seriously, look up CO2 scrubbers).

K Chad - You have to live in CA, if not, you heard about the fool who wanted to ban incandescent light bulbs. I promptly let him know that I am allergic to flourescent light and he needs to shut up because I will not buy flourescent bulbs because they will eventually blind me.

BRAVO TO YOUR POST. You explained how I, you and MANY AMERICANS feel about our current state of governmental affairs. It was succinct too.

To the person who commented that "we're paying for it anyway" - How about this? How about WE STOP PAYING PERIOD and see how that works out. In 1995, CA voted to deny public services to illegal aliens. Our courts ruled it unconstitutional. If the courts had upheld our law instead of giving rights to lawbreakers, WE WOULD NOT BE PAYING ANYWAY WOULD WE?

I also advocate putting kids - whose parents can not afford them - in orphanages. Why in the world do we give money to people who had kids they can not afford? How stupid are we for rewarding stupid behavior. It is cheaper for society to pay ONE light bill, ONE mortgage payment (for the home), BULK GROCERIES (instead of food stamps). Something to think about.

K Chad - You have to live in CA, if not, you heard about the fool...

I live in eastern Washington state. As for the light bulb thing... I don't really like florescent light bulbs that much. They are very piercing (probably because they include so much blue light in their spectrum). Whats more though, having florescent light bulbs for car headlights is a horrible idea. It's terribly blinding at night, without brights on. If incandescent light bulbs do go out cuz of this new "standards" law crap, I'll guarantee there's gonna be a black market for them.

I am actually studying to become a physicist... that may be hard to believe considering I'm supportive of a smaller government role, but it's not impossible. I currently work as a research intern at a-lab-which-I-cannot-name-here, which contracts work with both the government and private industry. So far, most of the work I've accepted has been with either private industry, DoD stuff, or DoE nuclear non-proliferation stuff. It's all work I believe in. I've rejected jobs funded by the DoE that don't have anything to do with what I think the government should be doing, and it's been great. I work 20 hrs a week while attending college full time.

Karen if you do not have kids I hope you are practicing at least.

1.1 I think the lack of pulicizing the health care plan by the DEMs was really a plan all along.

Pelosi: They will know what they get when they open, it is a Christmas stink bomb.

Please tell me that the 20% annual increase in premiums would be revisited also. These gigantic corporations, who have us at their mercy, would think nothing of retaliating against these provisions by insuring their billion-dollar profits.

I have gotten my health care policy options from my employer. The government mandated changes lead to a very confusing option base. It took some time to review and fully understand it before making any educated decision.

On top of that, to get a policy that provides the same coverage as my existing policy won't cost any less with the new policies. Cost is pretty much the same.

Please tell me how this is a good thing, run that by me again cause I guess I missed the big picture when it was said that there would be savings and an ease to the confusion.

excellent factual posting.

Actually not so excellent, and not so factual either. There was never any mention that you, the employed and insured, both of which I at 53 am not, would be saving a dime. This legislation was meant to correct the abhorrent policies such as lifetime limits and pre-existing condition suffered by many. You the average person, were told time and again that you'd see very little difference. The fact that you didn't listen speaks volumes about the American public's attention span and their interest in the subject when it progresses beyond them and their own personal interests. If you had spent the time to read the legislation which you obviously did not you'd already know this. Of course being employed and having a family that you can provide for takes a lot of your time. I understand that. Since I haven 't been employed for 19 months and can't provide for my family I had the time to read the legislation so I do know what it does and does not do.

All those are great... Now pay for it...

Many health insurance providers are already cutting kids' plans from their portfolios. Since they can't dictate and it will cost too much, they'll just cut services to improve the bottom line.

No matter how bad you want it, you have to find a way to pay for it.

To simplify, if you tell me I can't raise the price of twinkies in my corner store, but you're raising the cost I have to pay to provide. I won't sell your twinkies in my store.

embarrassed0526

Way to flame without being an @!$%#.

There are about 11 options with the government changes and yes there is a big different from what I currently have. There is a learning curve to the way the new policies work. I don't know how very little they were talking about but it is not reflected in the health care options that were passed along to me.

Cost - yes options were cheaper and a few more expensive. To match my current coverage costs about the same. The learning curve and now having to be directly involved with the health care options consumes time, which in my world is a cost.

Please tell me how this is a good thing...

Ok, so if you get very ill, and require very costly care, your insurance company will no longer be able to simply drop you. They will no longer be able to cap the amount of money they dish out to keep you alive either. Oh, and then they can't refuse to cover you because of your condition. Same goes for your children.

Insurance companies shouldn't be running our health care. But this is better than it was.

The reason the Republicans want to rehash this is because they've got nothing better to do.

They are the party of (NO) NEW IDEAS. They simply adjust other people's ideas and claim them to be their own new ideas. They can never concede that the other party actually did something good.

For a the fear mongers out there who threaten that everyone will be paying a Sh!tload more for less benefits? PROVE IT! You gotta give me more than words.

But why should I have to pay for something that I do not want? If i choose not to buy health care I pay a fine. Why is that? I have a doctor that I pay directly, why is that a problem? Why am I forced to pay extra for what I do not want? I agree that there are great thing for many people, but why must I suffer so another may gain? Also if I choose to get a plan through my employer and the plan changes in the future why can I not stay with that plan? Why must I be forced to go onto the government plan? I understand the benefits you pointed out but why not acknowledge the bad with the good and be honest?

Tea Partiers don't seem to consider that Angle's "Second Amendment Remedies" can someday be aimed at her and the rest of her "let's hint at assassinating Democrats and then giggle.....idiots." The bullets won't care that they are now being aimed at Insurance Executives instead of liberal politicians! Hey, the French Revolution is back! How dat happen?

Here is a fact no one seems to bring up: Insurance companies add NOTHING to the health of this nation, yet they take 20-25% of every claim paid. Medicare, a government run program, takes less than 5%.

Yet the GOP faithful say government is bad. Explain it to me.

Another fact healthcare costs have almost doubled since 2000, from 1.3 to 2.5 trillion dollars. Now according to the GOP faithful any increase in insurance rates is all Obama's fault.

@ mopman

"

I have gotten my health care policy options from my employer. The government mandated changes lead to a very confusing option base. It took some time to review and fully understand it before making any educated decision.

On top of that, to get a policy that provides the same coverage as my existing policy won't cost any less with the new policies. Cost is pretty much the same.

Please tell me how this is a good thing, run that by me again cause I guess I missed the big picture when it was said that there would be savings and an ease to the confusion."

Has it not occurred to you that none of the health care reform policies are in effect yet? Any confusing changes and cost increases you have experienced before now are a result of the old, entrenched health care system that this reform is addressing. The new law will not be fully in effect until 2014.

They can't EXPLAIN! Now BABBLE? That's another story!

Mopman, the fact that you can obtain insurance at about the same cost is a good thing since, for the last decade rates were going up 10-30% a year. Also, all of the new benefits that go into place on 9/23/2010 will stop many of the worst conditions imposed upon most of us like refusing to cover pre-existing conditions and so on. It may take a little time to figure out the best course of action for yourself, but you now at least have a choice! A lot of the problems were allowed to happen because too many times we are too busy to check out the details in our insurance plans. As for the savings, that will come about as more of the cost saving features are implemented and the fraud and abuse is cut from existing practices that have driven up the costs. It has taken a long time for the greedy and corrupt people in the Health Insurance system to loot and cheat the system. It will take some time to ferret out the cheaters and to correct the system that allowed them to unlawfully take advantage of us all. Also please note that most of the provisions do not take place for several years yet. That will give us time to tweak the bill and make amendments that will bring about even better coverage and bring costs more in line. Without a bill, there could not be changes. Changes never come easy because those that are unfairly benefiting do not want to give up their fraudulently gotten wealth. I am a retired self-employed business person that for years had to deal with the unfair system that made it impossible to even obtain insurance for the last 5 years before retiring. I only wish this new system had been in place for all those years that I had to pay thousands of dollars to insure myself and employees. Then to not even be able to cover myself and wife due to pre-existing conditions that drove up the prices year after year without the benefit of coverage that would have allowed us to have preventive coverage let alone coverage if something happened that they could say was somehow tied to the pre-existing problems. As you can see, I am not a fan of the Corporate run Health Insurance Companies that rake in trillions of dollars at the expense of all of us. Definitely not a fan of Congress and even more so the Party of NO! They have never been helpful to small business people like me, but they love the large Corporations that employ them! That is why I push for Campaign Reform so hard. Both sides take the money, they have little choice if they want to get in the game. Some people seem to take glee in serving their masters, some at least try to get something done and try to limit the control of their Corporate sponsers. Until we get the money out of the equation, we will keep wasting our resources and taking years to address the pressing problems of the Country!

Leroy, if you choose not to purchase health insurance, you are choosing to let me cover the risk that you'll end up in the ER and won't pay your bills. I resent that. By refusing to cover your own risk you are freeloading off those of us who pay taxes and pay for our health insurance.

True Realist: Your blog is really great and lays out a lot of the things that the Republicans don't want people to know. Keep posting it over and over until the American idiots out there who only listen to the Republican indoctrination maybe get a clue.

Joe- How do you know what my financial situation is in this regard? How am I freeloading if I can pay? I am not asking anyone to cover what I cannot. I don't want anyone to cover me. If i have invested wisely over time and built up enough money to cover an emergency, what business is it of yours? I pay my taxes and health care costs. You assume that because someone doesn't want this they are a freeloader. Maybe I don't trust insurance companies to be there when you need them most. Maybe I would rather plan ahead (with my doctors input and help) for the emergencies. If he tells me I have enough investments to cover me without help then who are you to call me a freeloader? If by some miracle I go through all I have then I am prepared to face the music and accept my fate. Again what business is that of yours if I did run out of money in an emergency stituation and therefore die from my miscalculations?

And when we cover Leroy's ER bill, we cover it at five times the rate the insurance companies pay for the same treatment, as government gets billed (in the form of tax decuctions for the hospital's lost income) at the full rate, and not the "special" insurance company discount rate. I've seen an initial $57,000 ER bill reduced to $9,500 (the "Insurance Adjustment"), which the insurance company actually paid. Sorry, Leroy, but we're not going to keep footing that bill for the 50 million who can't get insurance. Instead, we're going to make it possible for them to get insurance.

How is it more expensive to insure a pool of 320 million than it is to insure a pool of 170 million? That's counter to the fundamental insurance model.

(Sorry. I meant to say 270 million. The point's the same, though.)

Leroy,

You got a cool $million saved because that is what you might need. See you don't have the foresight to cover yourself and you get sick we get stuck. We don't just want to let you die as you say you would. The truth is you don't have the $million do you and if you get in a car wreck you will still go to the hospital.

Leroy, if you can pay your own way, great. I think everyone should pay their own way. Those that refuse to purchase health insurance can pay the IRS instead. I don't care. I just don't want to have to pay health care expenses for people who'd rather have taxpayers pay for them. If you want to express your freedom, go buy a gun or write a blog.

Ok True - exactly how are we all going to pay for:

* No rescinding coverage - I get it, this is a bad practice from a human standpoint, but do you have any idea how much money this is going to cost? The only option is for everyone to pay a lot more, as we are talking about the really sick people - the expensive one's.

* Fair coverage for children - Should have always been a part of healthcare, but again, do you have any idea how much this will cost?

* No more "lifetime limits" - Currently, over 100 million Americans
You cannot believe 100 million American's are going to max out their lifetime coverage - and if so, this will be a multi-Trillion dollar cost to all of us - so again, HOW DO WE PAY FOR THIS?

* The beginning of the end for annual limits - How much will this cost?

* Free preventive care - This is all new cost with no new money.

* Expanded coverage for young adults - In most circumstances, young adults can stay on their parents' health plan until age 26. IF you are a parent, this is a nightmare - do you know how many kids are refusing to grow up now adays? Now you are going to burden the parent with this cost, as most kids could care less and will not pay this.

* Appealing insurance company decisions - This is the death panel in disguise - if they say yes, costs go up, if no, someone is going to die.

I get how humane you want to be. But as the idiot democrats in congress are apt to scream whenever anyone talks about tax cuts (which when done properly increase revenue to the government - see Clinton and Reagan years) they always lead with:

HOW ARE YOU GOING TO PAY FOR THIS! Only four options - higher premiums, higher taxes, limit services as are done now, or more debt.

Paul F... the extra costs you mention are paid for expanding the pool by 30 million or so people (or the fines collected by IRS if they refuse to purchase coverage).

Letting big government say anything about healthcare is like asking a pedophile to babysit your kids.

Government needs to get out of the way of business and allow insurance companies to complete across state lines.

Now we have people who work paying for those who don't.

Can anyone say 'redistribution of wealth'? Heck, even some democrats call it that.

Be honest, this is a cluster f... of epic proportions.

All those people like to throw out the "Party of No" stuff, but they haven't understood that the No was for a reason. (They also don't realize that the GOP couldn't stop them anyway... The only reason the Dems wanted at least one Republican to vote Yea was to say it was bipartisan and WHEN it fails they could shift the blame.

A lot of people are citing the 5 or 6 bright spots that they like in the program, but the real question is what aren't you going to like or what are the ramifications not written in the legislation that still affects you (i.e. - higher premiums, etc...)

The bill didn't even make healthcare that covers NEARLY everyone. All those people they said were not covered? That number is barely going to change. The people who couldn't afford it before, still can't afford it! All this bill did was order people to get insurance.

Economically it's going to cause a crash.

Anyone who likes to keep saying that the GOP didn't have any ideas, there were ideas from Rep Ryan that WAS ACTUALLY PAID FOR, but the Dems didn't like to be shown up. He even brought it to Obama during a caucus, but it was still rejected because of the arrogance of the Dems. There were other bi-partisan plans out there as well.

The GOP wasn't NO so much as the Dems were: We'll do it regardless, just get on and shut up.

Costs will also be reduced when uncovered expenses are no longer paid in the form of tax deductions for unfunded ER visits. There are cost savings throughout health care reform that have yet to be quantified, and the potential for far more. We have only begun health care reform. Of course, the first and most effective cost reduction would be eliminating health insurance companies altogether and making health care not-for-profit, as it morally should be. We didn't do that yet, but when we do we'll be closer to affordable and universally available health care.

Health Care has to be for Profit. If there's no money in it, there's not enough good will in people to just do it for the good of it. Without money in it, you're going to get people who couldn't work a soda jerk operating on your knee.

The Congressional Budget Office already came out and said Obamacare was going to cost money, as in adding trillions of dollars.

Leroy,

How often when there's a car accident do the police drag the dying victim over to the ditch because they don't have insurance?? NEVER We are already paying for everybody elses health care, you just don't realize it.

Selling insurance across state lines was generally accepted as the correct idea to create competition and with competition you have lower costs and better services. With more money comes better training and techniques. You lose that in Obamacare.

If I hear think of the children one more time I might scream. Every child in this nation already has the ability to see a physician for free! It's called Medicaid. Each state has coverage for any child that is not covered by their parents insurance.

I'm 28 years old. I make less than $17,000 a year and am I full time student. My employer does not offer insurance, therefore I pay for my own. When will people stop expecting everyone else to care for them.

I work in the healthcare industry, unless you're incredibly sick and need to be hospitalized most doctors will work with self pay patients. You just have to be willing to pay. Even if you are hospitialized most hospitals will drasticly cut their prices and take payment plans, provided you are honest with them from the get go. Yes your first visit is going to be expensive to any doctor. However, once you've established yourself your rates will be much lower. Before I purchased insurance my PCD only charged me $40-60 a visit depending on what I needed. My copay costs more than that much less the premiums for the insurance.

Finally, it is NOT the governments job to tell me what I must or must not buy. I do not need nor do I want that type of interference in my life.

I do not want the government managing my healthcare.. as simple as that... When the american people that have any income are forced to buy health insurance or fined if they don't, they will be protesting just as loud as those of us that don't want government controlling our healthcare... I think there are so many people out there that think this is going to be "free healthcare". Think again... it will cost more than if you were to purchase a health policy today....

question concerning the the children not being turned down what happens when the parents can't afford the pemium?, because it won't be cheap, we need reasonable healthcare, just because you can get it doesn't mean you can afford it. that is my biggest worry, i know alot of my friends company insurances are going up alot, and they are going to have to pay alot more now and some can't afford it. this healthcare reform isn't and won't be a fix.

The glaring problem with this legislation is that is did nothing to make anything affordable. It only mandated that you get insurance. This means that anyone who didn't want insurance or couldn't afford it are now ordered to get it. All those people who said this was for the children or think about those who can't afford it.

None of those issues were addressed and now the Insurance Companies will be recoiling and finding ways to cut costs. LIKE A BUSINESS, which they are!!

Many are currently cutting Kids only plans (healthy and unhealthy are affected) and making it so you have to buy a Family Plan to have your kid covered. Expect more of that.

True realist Excellent job. You did not mention the tax credits small business will get for offering health insurance to their employees. I as an office owner of 10 employees may not have to cut benefits like I usually did due to the 15% annual increases in health ins. premiums I have endured for the past 10 years. I really think we would have better of with a public option but that was not ever going to get passed.

Natasha and BJ

first of all Medicaid only covers very poor. I am middle class, I make "too much money" for that. I tried to apply for it. Between mortgage, car payment, utilities and insurance would cover regular visits for kid only if kid was sick. I am lucky i have insurance what about other in my bracket, can't afford health insurance, what they going to do?

if you actually read the bill, you know government is not running it. It only regulating it. Private Insurance is one who is going to run it. get facts please.

CommonSense-2184579

Has it not occurred to you that none of the health care reform policies are in effect yet? Any confusing changes and cost increases you have experienced before now are a result of the old, entrenched health care system that this reform is addressing. The new law will not be fully in effect until 2014.

For a large corporation of course I have gotten my information already, GDIT does a lot for work for the government as it is. Its apparent you haven't gotten your explanation of new benefits and coverage.

The old system, the current system as it is, works very well and is simple to understand.

Unless GDIT lies of I got fake mail I call you a moron.

Wow, I'm blown away by posts that are not only polite, but articulate and support their opinion with facts (and sources). I must be dreaming...

Rich - have fun filling out all those new 1099's oh and recalculate those paychecks because your employees will now pay higher taxes

In this case I firmly believe the cure is worse than the disease. This bill is going to hit the middle class right in the pocket book. This is worse than doing nothing at all. WE ABSOLUTELY DO NEED REFORMS. Instead of thismassive incomprehensible bill that I would be willing to bet no one truly understands the full benefits or ramifications, why not start over with baby steps, on reforms that all agreed to. There were areas of solid agreement between the parties on many issues. The reason is this was always about more than just health care, it was about the government taking control, and that is scary.

@brian-595389:

There were areas of agreement? Really? I couldn't hear them over the screams of "NOOO!" coming from the right wing. The rethuglicans are stuck in NO mode, and will not vote for ANYTHING until they are back in power. Because they dont give a sh!t about the american people, only their own power.

I agree with you Brian - I do not want government controlling anything regarding healthcare and it will be the vanishing middle class footing the bill.

As for your comment Beth, grow up and lay off the kool-aid

sick_n_tired_1 says "I agree with you Brian - I do not want government controlling anything regarding healthcare" apparently you've heard of Medicare or Medicaid.

Some Republicans, such as Rep. Lynn Westmoreland, R-Ga., have suggested that if Republicans can't repeal the entire law or portions of it, they may simply refuse to negotiate with Democrats or Obama over spending bills – including those for agencies that are responsible for implementing the health care law – resulting in a replay of the 1995 government shutdown.

"When you can't achieve the ultimate objective, which of course would be repeal, what you can do is inflict as much pain as possible on the people you hold responsible for it," said Baker. "Just being able to haul somebody in front of a committee under the threat of subpoena, for example, or contempt of Congress, and working them over in public is enormously satisfying."

And a Republican congressman said on national television that he can look the President in the eye and truthfully say they are not obstructionists !

As for your comment Beth, grow up and lay off the kool-aid

Wow -- what an intelligent comment! I'm underwhelmed with it all! Of course when you don't have a point, I guess insults are your only options.

Why is pointing out that the former administration accomplished nothing and asking to see a plan indicate a need to "grow up and lay off the kool-aid"?

(I highly suspect you don't even understand the Kool-aid reference anyway, you just like to parrot others.)

And if I might inquire, if you are so against the government involvement in health care, are you prepared to forgo Medicare? Hospital inspections? Licensing of medical professionals?

@sick_n_tired_1 You don't want the government controlling anything? then get off medicare or medicaid. While you are at it stop taking social security disability. Resource sucking people like you we don't need. What about all the oil subsidies as well? Government is in everything whether you, I or anyone else likes it or not.

If i could avoid the taxes charged to me for the medicare medicaid and ss i would love to get off of it

acidrain...that 'party of no' line is really old....are you forgetting the Democrats saying 'no'

NO lobbyist...oh...wait...YES!

NO earmarks...oh...wait...YES!

NO backroom deals...oh...wait...YES!

NO partisanship...oh...wait....YES!

....but then again....

YES...an ethical administration...oh...wait...NO!

YES...close Gitmo within a year....oh...wait...NO!

YES....bring the troops home right away...oh...wait...NO!

YES...immigration reform in the first year...oh...wait...NO!

YES....Transparency in government...oh...wait...NO!

YES...bills posted on the internet before voting...oh....wait...NO!

Maybe they should be called the party of FLIP-FLOP....

The line is not old, it's still going on right now. Where are the GOP accomplishments? Where are they? Oh that's right, they don't do anything except collect a paycheck and froth at the mouth screaming at libs.

Sensible? One-I am all for getting rid of social security, medicare,medicaid and subsidies. I would much rather have it up to me to pass or fail in my lifes planning. The only thing I would keep is care for children. Those in need did not ask to nor have control over the situations that they may be suffering. I just think every adult should be responsible for themselves and if they fail then they fail. Its a hard line I admit, but it was the way it was when this contry was founded. It grew this country into the worlds greatest. Now by not holding each person accountable for themselves we are facing a great many problem, both financially and socially. In my opinion, and it is just one persons opinion, the "its not your fault you messed up" and "don't worry the state/ federal government will take care of you" mentality in the country is doing more harm than any good that comes from it.

@Leroy:

"It grew this country into the worlds greatest."

No, it didn't. People for for rights and benefits; THAT grew this country into the greatest. Not letting everyone fend for themselves and watching people suffer.

Beth, good post. It does need work, but it can and will be amended and in the long haul will be a good thing for us all.

Thanks, Justme. I think it needs a LOT of work, but at least it's progress. I would have taken a totally different track, but at least it's encouraging that people are finally TRYING. I just wish EVERYONE was trying, instead of just sniping at each other.

Acid-The rights you speak of were for equal opportunity NOT equal results. People did fend for themselves without the government and did well enough to grow this country into the greatest. As a lover of history I cannot remember ever reading that this country was founded on the belief that the government would provide for those that couldn't or wouldn't do for themselves. Those that couldn't were cared for by the community NOT the government. Those that wouldn't were shunned by society. Now if the community wants to band together and provide for all those I am all for that. I just do believe the government should provide these things. When this country was founded Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security and welfare didn't exist. If you are right about the government being need for these things, then how did we get along for so long without them?

I missed a very important word in the above.......I do NOT believe the government should provide these things.

I guess you liberals forgot the democrats literally LOCKED THE DOORS during the healthcare final negotiations and left the Republicans out of the room.

I guess a Republican minority didn't get much done when they were locked out of the room - golly, I wonder why.

And the stooge with the "republican thugs" comment - do you even know how dumb that sounds? They are a bunch of old men and women.

Our modern nanny state has been built over the last 80 years, after Congress began the federal income tax. 80 short years we went from $0 taxes on your first $20,000 of income (1919 dollars) to this fiasco, with tax rates topping 34% at the federal level, and with all that new money, they still overspend $13 TRILLION and counting!

Do you not see that this is insanity?

I don't care what your cause is - Congress behaves like drunken teenagers. IT HAS TO STOP before they destroy the nation.

I don't care what your cause is - Congress behaves like drunken teenagers.

Yes they do. And it's not the fault of either party -- it's the fault of the people who keep re-electing them.

acidrain....if you don't find facts too disturbing...read it and weep:

The six Republican ideas already in the health-care reform bill:

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/ezra-klein/2010/02/five_compronises_in_health_car.html

Wow the staunch libs this, repubs that is just insane. I certainly just love to hear how original one side is from the other, or how "they" have the people's best interests in mind. Certainly does make for a good laugh at any rate.

Were they to truly have the people's best interests in mind, there would be term-limits so people that actually live in the real world would be elected. The abhorant 2-party abortion of a system would become a thing of the past in short order. As it is, even the "new" parties are just the rehashed candidates of the former two.

It's not about making things better, it's just about how it looks, and how it effects their own respective power-bases. Pathetic, even more so that people seem to staunchly support their "team's" efforts.

But, I will say thanks. =) As it is of course humorous.

Leroy:

"If you are right about the government being need for these things, then how did we get along for so long without them?"

I know you probably subscribe to the rah rah America is always best theory of history, but like was hard, and people had to fight for their rights. We didn't start out as the best country in the world. People suffered. Our ideals were tarnished by reality. That changed over time.

leroy and paul,

you need to get book on great depression and see what was happening before FDR (guess, he was real republican, not fakes as today) setup SS and bank regulations and Medicare and other programs. Unfortunally today Republican party his shameful organizations. You two either rich greedy bastard who don't give @!$%# about nobody but yourself or two stupid idiots that on SS or government help and brainwashed by FOX or glenn beck.

Paul F: I guess you liberals forgot the democrats literally LOCKED THE DOORS during the healthcare final negotiations and left the Republicans out of the room.

hs321:
The six Republican ideas already in the health-care reform bill:
http://voices.washingtonpost.com/ezra-klein/2010/02/five_compronises_in_health_car.html

Okay, which is it, kids? Did the Republicans have input into the health care reform bill, or didn't they? Facts, please, and not the usual rhetoric...

I dont' care who had input or not.... what we got stinks.

We need to stop beating up each side and just come up with a better replacement. Why are still so focused on "who is at fault" here... we all are at fault, the politicians and the people that elect them... we put that bunch of )()*)(*##$ there. WE NEED TO REMOVE THEM and replace them with people for the people...

If we continue to fight amongst ourselves we will get nowhere fast.. the name calling has to stop, this nation is acting like a bunch of 3rd graders..

You mean 50% of the voters who go to Palin rallies and listen to Rush? I don't know about you, but I personally was never asked. Goose- stepping baggers, you mean?

I think you are mistaken. What the public disagrees with is the fantasy the republican party contrived when telling the tale of the health care bill. look at #3 and tell me what you disagree with littlebear.

Hey John,

Be careful when you call someone a teabagger that means you must be the teabag-e (pucker up 11/2/2010 is right around the corner.

James Reynolds

Disagree with or disbelieve? I don't trust a damn thing that come from politicians mouths, what I read in the newspaper or hear on TV.

You must be one of those "truthiness" kind of fellows. I'm more into facts myself.

"Over 50% of legal voters disagree with the "health care plan" as it is."

What are you citing?

Also, "I don't trust a damn thing that come from politicians mouths, what I read in the newspaper or hear on TV."

So, you just make up an opinion and then post "facts" about it. Oh wait, you must base your beliefs on the Radio and Internet.?.?.?

I'm into facts also, I just aint seeing any that I can rely on.

BB.

That's one of the really hard things about politics. Most of the data that we would need to really make informed decisions takes years (and alot of money) to collect.

Like the Iraq war or the Economic Stimulus, we really won't know if they a success or failure for a decade or more.

You got me I got the 50% stat from the washington post. I figure most koolaid drinkers would believe them.

JohnLuci, you win today's Godwin's Law award. Congratulations! Your argument invalidated by your own insipid comparison to Nazis.

Over 50% of legal voters disagree with the "health care plan" as it is.

Over 50% of legal voters support allowing gays and lesbians to serve openly in the military and over 50% of legal voters support legal recognition for same sex couples, either marriage or civil unions. Will you be joining that fight any time soon?

The problem with repealing the dadt law is that dems include a bunch of other stuff they know the repubs won't agree to in order to assure failure. You libs are quick to point the finger at the repubs as being the "no" and "hate" party, but they didn't get their by themselves. The democratic majority has place them in really bad sitatuation and they are just trying to survive until such time as they can actually have voice that gets them somewhere again. It is the way our polictical system works. It is called checks and ballances. Just like with the repubs have the majority and the dems do nothing buy say "no", bitch wine and cry about nothing. It is designed to get us nowhere.

Gotta love our political. The real problem are the individuals elected to these positions, a lot of them for their remaining lifetimes. They are more worried about keeping their jobs than doing what is right for our country. Thay all suck if you ask me.

jabbausaf

First I have no issues with civil unions (same partner rights ect.) but not to call it marriage, I think that is political wedge used by activists. I also do not approve of spending tax dollars to promote or accommodate any actions to further promoting or defeating it.

About the military that really does not affect me, I just wonder if it would be better or worse for those serving. I would not support anything that requires tons of tax payer money to accommodate gays or straights in the military or any where else in society

The GOP hasn't offered any proposals to deal with healthcare. In fact most of PPACA IS republican ideas!

There is no evidence this is going to hurt the middle class. Instead of throwing out BS, try actually proposing ideas.

That's right - don't you dare stick your hand into their pockets. What we pay them is nothing compared to what the special interests pay them.

Forcing you to buy insurance from those "evil" insurance companies.....that's ok.

Watching your rates go up because the insurance companies know you have to buy their insurance now.....a great idea.

Getting your employer insurance dropped because the fine from the govt is cheaper than the cost of your policy....halleleujah!!!

Yep, those democrats sure gave those evil insurance companies "what for" didn't they? Told us that those insurance companies were "eeeeevil" and then handed them an additional 30 million policy holders. Yep, that put them in thier place didn't it?

Looks like a win-win for the democrats, they get to have something for thier legacy, keep those insurance company campaign donations coming in AND continue to fool all of you.

I have seriously considered dropping my insurance, just because of their obscene profits. Seanator Bayhs wife is on the board of Wellpoint (biggest most profitable insurer in the country-first to drop breast cancer survivors and now first to ditch kids. ) Politics and big business are so entwined it is sickening.

I have seriously considered dropping my insurance, just because of their obscene profits. Seanator Bayhs wife is on the board of Wellpoint (biggest most profitable insurer in the country-first to drop breast cancer survivors and now first to ditch kids. ) Politics and big business are so entwined it is sickening.

Insurance companies are businesses, and they are profitable. Unless we regulate their margins somehow, we will all be paying more and they'll be as profitable as ever. The changes in this bill will inevitably cost them more (they aren't dropping kids because they're low cost), so they'll pass those costs along to us.

GOP has proven that they unwilling to compromise on ANYTHING, unless they are the ones in power.

acidrain....you need to watch this:

PBS Frontline on Obama and the backroom deals and corruption associated with passing the health care bill:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/obamasdeal/?utm_campaign=homepage&utm_medium=bigimage&utm_source=bigimage

The democrats notion of "compromise" was to tell dissenters to sit down and shut up and lock them out of meetings. Then when some democrats started to waiver in their support of the bill, what did the president and congress do? Did they try to compromise with them? Did they take a minute to actually see the merits of their argument? No, they bought them off.

It's sad to say, but if the republicans had a supermajority like the dems did, they'd lock out the dems the same way.

Open your eyes. It's time for all of them to go.

"Open your eyes. It's time for all of them to go." Amen to that. Out with incumbents.

And yet polls show 86% or so are happy with their health insurance. Weird.

paul

your proof, evidence to back that number please

@hs:

I can't get the video to work on that site, but I read the description below the video. Didn't learn anything knew. All it proves to me is that Obama made concessions. Concessions that were not met by the GOP. Personally, I wanted single payer or public option, but I'm glad something got done. We can't trust the rethuglicans to do ANYTHING to help people victimized & robbed by the healthcare industry. They are only in it for the money; they don't give a @!$%# about the people of this country. Yes, you can say that about some democrats too.

If anything, it goes to prove that Obama is not even 1/100th the liberal that thugs like Palin and Beck play him out to be.

I agree with you. We need to have a 3rd party choice.

We *DO* have more parties. The problem is that people (and the media) refuse to acknowledge them - either as serious candidates or to even acknowledge them at all.

Some parties are ignored, some are discredited as being "crazy" because they're suggesting sensible alternatives to our broken ways, but would require *gasp* effort to enact.

You say it's time to "move on". What does that mean? Because last time I checked the only compromise the Democrats would listen to was making everyone go along with exactly what they wanted.

The lack of decency shown by Nancy and Harry are historic - these are two of the most partisan hacks DC has seen in decades. Obama has made no serious effort to do anything but be partisan - he insults the opposing party, mocking them in nearly every speech he makes - and what, he is over 600 or so speeches since taking office, so that's saying something.

Take away the super majority, even it up, and these clowns will have to negotiate. Nothing good will come of it though as the REAL problem in our nation is that we have given far too much control over spending money we do not have to them.

Our only answer is a balanced budget amendment. Nothing else will save us from these clowns - and several congressmen have said exactly that.

Not a single thing you said is true. The economy under Bush continued to grow until Democrats controlled congress. Democrats sent us down the hole with their "home loans for everyone" and you can thank Barney Frank and his buddies for that one.

The wars were both authorized by Democrats as well, so nice try, but we were all in this - and the revisionist history will not change that - and good luck with the "Bush lied" crap - Hillary claimed to have done her own investigation and found credible evidence of WMD's as well.

The Republican's have submitted hundreds of amendments which are almost universally ignored - so not a party of no, the Democrats are the party of "shut the hell up".

The hole we are in is the responsibility of both parties, and your democrat friends are planning $1.5 - $2 trillion deficits yearly as far as the eye can see.

Paul F you are correct... 100%

So you're blaming the democrats for actually wanting to do something about all the problems you listed?

John, if the Obamacare monstrosity is "doing something", then yes, blame is warranted.

John, yes I am blaming the democrats. They passed this without any republican votes, and back room deals. No one really knew what was in the bill and Pelosi was saying we "have to pass this to find out what's in it." The 13 or 14 months spent on the HCR could have and should have been used to create jobs. The Obama administration has been a complete failure.

And what's the biggest cost for providers? Insurance.

And the cost of the insurance is NOT addressed in the bill. Only that we have to buy it from the insurance companies. And if you don't make enough money to afford health insurance, the govt is going to GIVE you money to buy the insurance. What does that do for the COST of the insurance? Not a damn thing except raise it.

Catch up on the news John - About a month ago the CBO came out and said some mistakes were made and the bill will not pay for itself - Costs will increase. (and kill of the vanishing middle class)

As for the mandated coverage - I refuse to give up my FREEDOM OF CHOICE!

I give a lot of money to charities organizations for underpriveleged children but when the government comes and tells me I have to give more to their charity (Insurance companies!!) I will fight!

sick_n_tired_1, I resent the fact that you're a freeloading bum who thinks I should have to pay your bills if you end up in ER and are uninsured. your no better than some welfare loafer with a fake disability. I'm glad HC reform will force leaches like you to pay into the health care system.

You tell him Joe.

I'll bet he also CHOOSES not to have car insurance too!

john..."The independent Congressional Budget Office already determined before the bill was passed that the plan pays for itself,"

Seriously?...do you not know how government works? See my comment 7.2 above.

How do you know sick_n_tired_1 doesnt have health insurance? Like him, I don't want the govt to force me to buy something from a private company, whether it's health insurance or a car or whatever.

You want to bring up auto insurance? fine. I remember when the state mandated auto insurance for everyone who drove a car. My rates more than doubled because the insurance companies KNEW they were going to get my money regardless of how much they charged. Remember credit card "reform" last year? My credit card rates went up before that bill went into effect because they KNEW this was thier chance to get the rates up before the govt locked them in. With auto insurance rates we can choose to not own a car. With credit cards we can choose not to have them. What choice do we have with health insurance?

You think the health insurance companies aren't going to do the same thing? Rates are already starting to go up. Everything that the govt sticks its nose into ultimately costs US more money.

The only ones who will make out because of this bill will be the poor because the taxpayers will be paying their insurance through govt subsidies and of course the insurance companies because they will get another 30 million customers.

By the way I have both health insurance for my family AND auto insurance on all of my vehicles.

Mariah, this is the exact same strategy the GOP uses on fiscal policy. run around making a bunch of noise, spreading misinformation, blaming everything bad on earth on democrats and asiking for your vote. They claim they'll reduce spending to balance the budget, but they are too gutless to tell us what programs and services they will cut and by how much that will reduce the deficit. They are hoping that there are enough ignorant fools that swallow their empty rhetoric that they don't need to provide any substance. Not that democrats are any better. I'm sick of both parties. I'm sick of partisan politicians on both sides.

Why do you hate America?

I don't just giving the hard truth on what needs to be done to make america strong again-your vote for the tea party will help this cause!!

So I guess you dont needs roads to drive on then limbaughger? paid by state as well as federal money. How about national defense, naw we dont need that, we didnt need it before WW2 either. Your theories of we dont need the federal government doesnt hold water, I bet you like drinking clean water, but what is the definition of clean water, it is established by the EPA another Federal Government Agency that you dont need. Think before you post please.

No, the tea party is full of idiots. They would destroy this country and everything it has fought for. Shut down the govt? There will be riots in the streets. They should storm the govt and kick out all those newly elected tea baggers if that happens.

America has had some socialist programs for a long time. Deal with it, or face the consequences of trying to take people's benefits.

I hope you're cool with that socialist government fire department not coming to put out your house when it catches on fire. I'm sure with your support for self reliance that you'll have no problem putting it out yourself. While you're at it, stay the hell off of my interstate highway system and I'd better not catch you putting anything in the mailbox either!

Former Republican and Jeff - First everyone that drives pays taxes to the state and federal government when they buy fuel for their vehicles. That money is suppose to be set aside for maintaining our roads in interstate highways. National defense is part of the federal government that is mandated in the constitution and our federal taxes pay for that. As for the fire department, that is paid by local and state taxes, not federal unless your home is on federal land. We could get rid of the Dept of Education, so one has been able to tell me what good it does. The EPA has over stepped its authority in many areas and needs to be curtailed. BLM, could be abolished. There are a lot of waste in government, and before we keep adding to the size of government there needs to be a complete audit to get rid of waste.

Limbaugher: What does the phrase in the preamble of the constitution "promote the general welfare" mean to you, it's right in there next to "provide for the common defense" which the right wing nuts and second amendment worshipers claim they love? I will agree that the general welfare should be taken care of by first the individual, followed by the family, then local, state governments, and employers, however when that has all failed and our overall health care cost runs to 15 or 16 percent of GDP, while other western countries are spending about 12% then I think it was time for the feds to do something about it and they did even in the face of 100% GOP sulking. Why these a**holes think they should undo it first chance they get is beyond my comprehension.

limbaughger,

You do realize don't you, that no government = kaos and anarchy. Even our founding fathers realized that you need government. And all you people saying that the government has no right to make you get health insurance, tell the state government that applies to you, that you are no longer going to get car insurance because you don't feel you need it as you are a good driver. I'm sure your car registration and tags will be yanked immediately. Please do us all a favor and think before you speak.

I am always struck by the question in my mind "what are the conservatives trying to conserve"?
You don't want much government, go back in time to 1900 when a few select families (Vanderbilts, Morgans, Rockefellers) held the majority of the wealth in this country. Fast forward to the great depression, on a conservatives watch, pain and suffering for most, great opportunities for the above mentioned privledged. Enter the progresssive(FDR), economy turns around, WWII fought and won by the unprivledged. Unions, education and the GI bill create the middle class. Taxes peak for the upper class during Eisenhowers' reign, (90%), Economy humming along. Fast forward to Uncle Ronnie, unions smashed, taxes raised on all, debt starts to accumulate. Shrub comes along, cuts taxes using the lock out reconciliation method so scorned by these same conservatives, the benefit of which mostly goes to the wealthy whilst fighting two wars , expands govt. without paying for it, presides over the great recession, sends the govt. into our personal lives like none before, presides over a my way or the highway Congress, and expands debt to unheard of levels. The conservative good ole days never were, not for the middle class anyway. Only the hated liberals (we the people), have done a damn thing for the middle class, minorities, working people,and the disadvantaged. The class warfare thing is a Republican function, and until progessives got in it's the wealthy few who were winning. Is this what you want to "conserve". Everytime the Republicans get in they destroy the govt. That I believe is their stated goal. That way the corporations, insurance companies, oil companies ect. get their way and we get tinkled down on.

FormerRepub
So I guess you dont need roads to drive on then limbaughger? paid by state as well as federal money

Where do you think this money comes from, by the way Former thanks for the nice roads-hint.

Conservatives have NO ROOM to talk about consitutional violations, since they were too busy attacking lib's patriotism while Bush ran roughshod over the constitution.

You can blame yourself if there are constitutional violations. You can thank Nixon and Bush.

Tommorow all the items listed in #3 kick in. That is not 5 years down the road that is tommorow.

Arthur, the GOP proposal to allow insurance companies to sell across state lines would result in a rush by scam insurance companies to set up operations in the states with little or no regulation, no consumer protection, and where AG would never prosecute one of his buddies for health care fraud. States like MS, AL, LA, SC. Red states. That plan would result in the greatest redistribution of wealth since the Roman Empire. It's a scam dreamed up by GOP operatives. Consumers would buy insurance based on low price and then the insurance company would refuse to pay claims, knowing their GOP buddies in the state house would protect them from prosecution.

Arthur..."There was wide support (70-80%) among the American people for: Enabling the purchase of insurance across state lines, TORT reform, and cracking down on pre-existing conditions discrimination especially among children."

Please be careful stating facts. You may cause someone to develop a medical condition that competition across state lines would have made very affordable to treat. Some people are totally opposed to alternative, viable plans.

joe mota..."the GOP proposal to allow insurance companies to sell across state lines would result in a rush by scam insurance companies to set up operations in the states with little or no regulation, no consumer protection, and where AG would never prosecute one of his buddies for health care fraud."

Is that like the scams and fraud already occurring with Medicare? State governments already regulate health insurance providers with the states, couldn't the federal government regulate them nation wide? Of course it could. If it can write a 2000 page bill for health care, it could certainly write a few hundred pages regulating providers.

hs, the republican proposal did not include tough federal regulation to protect against fraud and abuse. That's why it was just a scam. Of course the could have proposed some oversight, but they didn't because then democrats could accuse them of expanding government....They were tying to fool people into thinking they had a plan but it was really just a political sideshow.

Ok, first off.. costs are out of control in part because DR's run 100's of tests that might not otherwise run due to fear or lawsuits... reform the tort law and you help bring costs down...

Secondly - what does a 3.5% tax on the sale of my house (above and beyond any gains taxes that might be due) have to do with healthcare? but yet... in 2012 you will start having to pay this tax.. Yes, it's in there.

There are many ways to improve the system that congress found unpalatable due to the insurance lobby and other lobbies so this way the only thing that changes is the $$$ out of my pocket and into someone elses.

Additionally,

This bill strips us of our personal sovereignty by forcing us to buy health insurance, while doing nothing to cap insurance prices.

In other words, those who voted for this bill have said, "You are no longer a free people. You will buy what ever we tell you to, when we tell you to. Your freedom only exist to the extent that we decide is right for you."

Throughout the ages humankind has dreamed, struggled, fought, bled and died to obtain their freedom. Patrick Henry said, "Give me Liberty of give me Death."

Unfortunately now, many desecrate the great gift that has been given to them. They are willing to give up their freedom for a few hand outs. Not only that, they are willing to sacrifice their neighbors freedom, the personal sovereignty of others. This is contrary to the very essence that the United States was founded on.

You only have to look back in history to see where this road leads.

joe..."the republican proposal did not include tough federal regulation to protect against fraud and abuse." Granted, but why didn't the democrats fix that when they were in control of Congress?

Both parties and their partisan bickering and political grandstanding are to blame.

hs, I agree 100%, both parties and their partisan bickering and political grandstanding are to blame. democrats caved in to unions, republicans just play political mind games (death panels). it was all pretty disgusting.

The public IS educated on "reform" and they are resoundingly against it.

Obamacare is an overreaching monstrosity.

this article is good news-all we have to do is shut down the government-that not only will kill healthcare but also social security,medicare,medicaid,unemployment,food stamps welfare, you name it, us tea partiers thought these targets were impossible but now its so simple we can kill them all-shutting down the government will be awsome, cant wait till after november when the tea party takes over so they can do just that!!

@limbaughger:

There will be rioting in the streets. I hope your conservative dues are paid up with Blackwater, because you're going to need their protection if the GOP pulls this country apart.

us tea partiers are all most heavily armed, eliminate the police, we can protect ourselves. also eliminate the public schools-they are bankrupting all 50 states, are all failing and are all too liberal, people can educate there kids better at home using the internet!! us tea partiers get this-were taking america back!! also remember it was a bunch of great militia men that took this great nation from the british!! it can be done!!

I love that heavily armed line....what've you got? .308 hunting rifle? 12ga shotgun? That's gonna come in real handy when the National Guard shows up in a Bradley and points that 25mm chaingun at you. I wish you nutjobs would try and start a rebellion, we could finally be rid of your ignorance once and for all.

@limbaughger:

Thanks for admitting you just want to rip this country apart.

Wow, what a poster child of failed education in this nation. Punctuation, grammar and spelling all crucified in just one post. Limbaughger is a perfect example of why the Tea Party will never succeed. It has too large of an uneducated poplulation who do not understand real world politics,

@limbaughger:

Oh, and it doesn't matter how well armed you are. A bunch of old angry frothing white men with pistols isn't going to do well against the young. How's your eyesight?

So true , warrior

GIF..."Punctuation, grammar and spelling all crucified..."

"poplulation who do not understand real world politics,"

Whoops!!!....it's population and shouldn't that sentence end with a period?

Thinks twice next time before you choose to be the Newsvine grammar police! LOL!!!

To those who say this HCR bill will raise premiums, where have you been? The fact is that we are being raped by the health industry to stay alive. Tort reform? Go to Texas where they already did the tort reform, no studies can show where it has made a difference in the 20-30% increases in premiums being handed down to the patients/customers. Remember, these increases far exceed inflation and have been going on for years. The death panels do exist, Well Point, Blue Cross, Aetna, ect.

Years ago one of the few wise Republicans, T.R., busted monopolies that were ruining the country, yet here we are with yet another monoply, health insurance comapnies (some states have only one)ruining peoples financial and physical health.

Threatening violence? You must be a radical leftist.

well said Fupped - I got my CWL 4 months ago

Fupp,

Denny would have to escape what ever institution he is in to do any of that.

ME too cause Im a Gun toting tea bagging straight up American derp da derp. That muslim we have in office trying take gun and my truck and me job. He trayng take me jeeb derp da derp.

Have had my license for 2 decades, but all it takes to deal with ignorance, is two fingers (one for each eyeball), one knee (for the gonads) and one elbow (for the back of the head or neck).

Like bush-boy, and herr cheney, the bet is you're mostly all just dumb, big-mouthed, cowards... oh, and it's so typical that narrow-minded, short-sighted repukes would think that anyone who does not buy the Gestapo On Parade's (GOP) deceitful BS, is a "libbie", "lefty", or whatever.... when the fact is, the GOP is clearly a deceitful corporprate-organized criminal conspiracy, that is no less nationalistic and fascist than hilter was. GOP=scum of mother earth.

Both parties are useless and fail to listen to the people... and if you don't think I'll fight you before I'll let you have what's mine that I earned you are sadly mistaken.

Additonally, you seem overconfident that the Guard will actually fire on it's own people and doubt the kind of firepower the people actually have...

be wary of the quiet ones... remember Talk Softly and carry a big stick????

Jane = biggest internets thug of all time derp da derp

Robi,

I am not being a wise ass, so dont take it that way. But what is derp da derp?

Denny Boy,

You can rant and rave all you want. When you lump everyone together ( GOP=scum of Mother eath ) you show what a true @!$%# you really are. My father, 87 years old is a Republican and he is a kindly old man.

Please remove your head from your rear end

Ah Robi - keep going... your display of ignorance is helping me fall asleep

glad i could help. internet thug. derp

I agree with Denny with lot of points. But not all GOP like that either. There are some good GOP, but very few of them. May be Cuprace 87 year old kindly old man is one of the old republicans like FDR. But modern GOP is too extreme to me

hear, hear

There is a provision in the health care bill to pay doctors for outcomes rather than on a per procedure basis as many doctors charge now. This alone will reduce costs by making it fruitless for the doctors to order unnessary tests. Many hospital are converting to putting the doctors on salary and that also reduces cost.

Finally a Repub that's willing to go to the middle.

I forgot to mention in my original statement. The revised bill should also have mandates against socialized medicine. We don't need the government dictating how my doctor treats our ailments.

We've got to find a way to control medical costs. Before medical costs began to get out of control, most families had insurance. If not, the medical cost was not so overbearing, they could pay for their doctor consultations. That's not the case now. GET THE COSTS UNDER CONTROL! Then insurance will be affordable again.

Finally a Repub that's willing to go to the middle.

Few and far between, my friend.

Harry, the chains are buying up independents because medicare fraud is very lucrative. Ask Florida's GOP candidate for governor, Rick Scott. He made hundreds of millions running a hospital chain that was convicted of defrauding medicare of billions of dollars. billions. now tea party wants even less gov't oversight which will lead to even worse abuses.

Harry...there is already a simple, viable solution to lowering costs. It's called competition. Currently only a small number of health insurance providers are allowed to operate in each state. Some have only two. If Congress would change these laws, there would be considerable competition among all the providers and cost would drop.

Case in point. Laser eye surgery is not covered by but very few providers. When it was first being performed, it was rather expensive, but as competition for those dollars grew, prices dropped dramatically. The same is true for many cosmetic surgeries not covered by insurers.

But that's more along the lines of the free market model. And those currently in control want just that: control.

"I think if we get a good public option, it could lead to single payer and that's the best way to reach single payer." - Barney Frank

Reagan said in 1961: "One of the traditional methods of imposing statism or socialism on a people has been by way of medicine. It’s very easy to disguise a medical program as a humanitarian project. Most people are a little reluctant to oppose anything that suggests medical care for people who possibly can’t afford it."

hs, I support the option of health care co-ops, which would be to health care what credit unions are to banking. Local control. Member owned. Non-profit. Customer oriented. It was a great idea, but it got drowned out in the furor over 'Death Panels'. Co-ops avoid the problems of inefficiency and inflexibility with a government bureaucracy and the problem of conflict of interest with for profit health insurance, which makes more money when it refuses to pay claims.

I hope the co-op concept comes back. If the GOP supported co-ops, I'd support them.

I agree with the competition solution, but I don't think it will be implemented as any changes to the bill will have to be signed by the President himself and only overridden if there is a 2/3 majority which I don't think will happen. The Republicans will gain seats in November, but not enough to make any sweeping changes. (Im for neither side of the aisle BTW).

What I am not looking forward to is the new income tax on any premiums paid by your employer. This will probably kick in once the economy gets on it's feet again and people start spending again...talk about keeping you down!

Republicans have no intention of providing for any kind of healthcare reform, financial reform or anything like it. When they had all the power for SIX full years, they did NOTHING, not even a proposal or even the admission that they believed reform was even necessary! WHY? Because the GOP is not a political party anymore -- it IS a corporate-organized, criminal conspiracy! The GOP represents only one group -- elitist-pig owned corporations, period!

James - the Dr's order the tests because if they don't and they leave one out they could be sued for improper care.. it's about covering their backsides more than the number of billings....

They did look in on it. Bush and Cheney didn't do anything wrong. Immoral, maybe depending on your point of view, but not illegal.

Not like when Bill Clinton lied to Congress, which led him to be impeached. It wasn't what he lied about, it was that he lied, period. If Clinton just told the truth about hanky panky in the WH, he wouldn't have been impeached.

Bush and Cheney did lot of things wrong and illegal, unfortunately if administration would go after them, they would have to burn some of their own politicians too. Nobody wanted to take that chance too

So you're saying that it wasn't just Bush and Cheney? That they had Democrat help??

Save it for the X-Files... there's no conspiracy. People hated Bush for starting two wars (Iraq was invaded based on a 'clear and present danger' based on a Clinton edict). That's well and good that you're upset about that. But he didn't (alone) create the financial mess or throw babies into fires.

If you line up several of his ideas next to the current administration you will see that they have similar principles and Obama kept a number of ideas from the previous administration. (i.e. - Bush and Obama both favor Amnesty and open borders...)

What do they wanna change?? That's easy----- they wanna return this country BACK to total control by business and NOT by the people! That's been their history!! We see NO EVIDENCE to make us think otherwise!! I'm SHOCKED that Americans are even con sidering it!

The idiocy of a large number of Americans is depressing.

If you think that government control is control by the people, you are saddly mistaken.

If you think insurers give a rats ass about the health of Americans, you are sadly mistaken.

Good thing I dont think that or say that.

If you think any politician gives a rat's ass about you once they've gotten your vote, I have a health insurance policy to sell you.

Insurance companies don't care about you. They're a business, they're not your buddy. Stop thinking you're entitled to it. If you don't like what an insurance company offers, go to another company. Just expect more of the same because the politicians dropped the ball and didn't allow purchasing of plans across state lines which would have created competition and lowered prices and would have allowed the consumers to write their own ticket.

Now, the special additions to plans are going to get cut off. Companies being forced to take Kids with disabilities? Good luck with that. Many companies are cutting off those programs and not allowing ANY kids programs, healthy or ill. The government needs to realize that the service insurance companies provide can't be bullied or they'll figure out a way around it. So enjoy it when you need to buy a Family Plan you don't need to make sure your kid is covered because the government tried to outsmart business.

It doens't work on the Wall Street companies and it won't work on the Insurance companies. Now we're screwed because of the arrogance of the Congress.

Fubb? You are DEMANDING that the country be returned to the total control of businesses and corporations that nearly destroyed us????? Damned---- that's increadible!

Actually they released a list of the richest members of Congress and the majority of them were Democrats.

If the GOP gets control, the American public will not stand for any more obstructionist crap from the Republicans. I hope for the Repubs they'll see that.

Its funny to me how the Democrats who control both the house and the senate and who have, with no problem, passed legislation of whatever irresponsibility, refer to the Republicans as "obstructionists" who are uncooperative.

Rock,

If the Republicans gain control it will be because the American public wants it, thats how elections work.

FubbedDuck,

you not rich, just brainwashed idiot, Government is not telling you anything, if you have your insurance, you will still have same one, but if you too stupid or lazy to get one, you don't have to, you just pay more in tax money. And stop lying about your wife insurance was cancelled, that was because of insurance company, not the bill. Nice try to lie. You don't have wealth to redistribute idiot. Democrats uncooperative? or may be republicans don't compromise on anything, wait democrats actually got you the bill that you idiots offered to clinton 15 years ago and you guys voted no for your idea, lol you guys party of NO

Well Said !!!!!!!!! lp

Fup. Sadaam Hussein was neutered. If his air defense so much as switched on their radar, they'd be hit with a hellfire missle in less than a minute. His air force couldn't fly. His army all but destroyed in the Gulf War. He was not threat whatsoever to the US. Yet because of Bush's supidest decision in the history of mankind, we wasted over 4,000 lives and who knows how many trillions of dollars. There is no force in the world today that's a serious threat to the US. None. Al Quaida's the worst, and we can keep them scrambling with decent intelligence, predators, and cruise missles. No need for us to be spilling blood and treasure in Afghanistan. None. The Taliban can't threaten us.

The US has always been a humanitarian country that aids other countries in conflict. Korea, Vietnam, Europe, etc. Sadaam Hussein may have been little to no threat to Americans but he did kill thousands of Marsh Arabs in order to gain control of land they inhabited for thousands of years. He also provided aid and sanctuary for Al Quaida.

rob, the tea party continually screams that we're broke and can't afford to fix health care or any other domestic problems, yet they think it's great to spend $trillions to punish Sadaam for being evil and try to force our system onto other countries. I care a lot more about all the kids in Oakland that can't get a decent education because they're too hungry to think straight and their schools can't afford computers than I care about marsh Arabs. Let the Saudi arabs take care of the marsh arabs and let us take care of the kids in this country who, through no fault of their own, live in poverty.

I agree with you 100% lp. :-)

rob. a couple of years ago bush admitted, and the CIA concluded that Saddam did NOT provide any aid to al Qaeda and that there were NO al Qaeda in Iraq at the time of the invasion....... and added "SO WHAT?" This was one of MANY lies told by the bush administration in the leadup to the war. Even a prestigious CONSERVATIVE publication published an article :

Yes, Bush Lied!! http://www.wnd.com/index.php?pageId=21119

Hey joe I agree with you,

But China and Russia are only countries that have capabilities to fight United States. But Iraq is joke, they don't have capabilities even close like Russians have. And Al Qaeda is almost any country including US. Should be commence Marshall law then? that joke. Repubs are nuts.

Bush invaded legally based on the edict by Bill Clinton stating that since Saddam had threatened the life of US Presidents, it created a clear danger.

Clinton didn't invade, but maintained the no fly zones.

Bush made the decision to invade based on a number of reasons... not a "just cuz I wanted to". That would be dumb and he couldn't cover his butt with that excuse. Just because the media wanted to look dumb, doesn't mean he was.

just shut it down, we hate big government anyhow, the people will be celebrating in the streets the day they shut it down!!

The German People celebrated in the streets whenever Hitler appeared or made one of his infamous speeches, too. Welcome to the new Republican Party. Bet you that your ideals will fade away if they come into full control.

Not born yet at that time, I often wondered how the brown shirts (nazi's) came into power in Germany back in 1932. Recent events in our own country and politics has shed a lot of light on the subject. I hope we are not following down that same awful path. Just what is it these people want to take us back to? You can never go back, going forward is the only direction we should be concerned about.