Extremely bad bill. No one liked it. Even the Democrats conceded that "something was better than nothing." Several Democrats had to be paid off to vote for passage. Remember Democrats needed ZERO votes from the Republicans to pass ANY law. This one was so bad that they had to slime it through.

It would have made more sense to pass segmented changes that was supported by dems and repubs. If you recall the live open discussion on CSPAN there were about 14 common solutions that both parties agreed on. These could have been enacted and other areas worked out.

Bad bill period. The American public still does not want this.

Gov't can mandate insurance companies have to insure 26 year olds or pre-existing conditions but insurance companies don't have to and certainly won't do it for free.

Too bad no one had time to read the bill.

What an example of real convictions of your actions - start giving waivers as soon as people threaten to undermine your efforts.

"Just kidding. You really don't have to comply with the new laws if you are upset about them. Never mind having to insure people."

Talk about trying to soften the potential blow for the upcoming elections.

So it begins....

Companies that have lots of money and lobbyists get to bypass the law.

What good is a law if some don't have to follow it?

I guess we are all created equal, some more equal than others.

Walter - So you think it would be good if Walter went into business selling widgets. The widgets cost you $1.00 to produce and ship. But the government tells you you can sell 100 per year @ $1.50 but for every 100 you sell @ $1.50, you have to sell 100 @ 50 cents. Just why exactly would you choose to continue to conduct business in that environment?

Forcing a business to sell policies where they know lifetime payouts to that insured will most likely or assuredly exceed 1,000% of that insured premiums, and also forcing that same business to hold down premiums on their healthy individuals ... what the hell is right about that? Something has to give. And unless you have developed a tree that grows $1,000 dollar bills and easily grows anywhere, THAT business model is doomed to failure, no ifs, ands, or buts.

But then isn't that what this is all designed to do? ... to collapse the private health insurance industry forcing us ALL into an overwhelmed, understaffed, poorly qualified staffed medical care system, that will not work in the US, as it BARELY works in other smaller countries. Also forcing virtually ALL medical research and development to come to a COMPLETE HALT ... at least here in the US ... we will be at the mercy of some other up and coming country to fill our new voids in medical advancement. That will be wonderful and I can't wait to explain to my son how my generation screwed up his and future generations live's, top to bottom.

Walterpaul,

The only thing worse than the insurance companies running it is to have the government involved in it. They cannot run ANYTHING right. You can bet the worst is yet to come with the government in charge.

OMG! you dont know if you should laugh or cry....months and months Obama care was the only headline and now look.... OMG look at us!!

This is just a shameful wast of so much time and our taxpayers money

Are you happy Obama?

WalterPaul, you have no idea what you are talking about. The people with healthcare already paid for those without it in higher premiums. No one runs a business for nothing .... you even get a paycheck right ..... By your logic you should work for free...

It's only the beginning. The Supreme Court will rule on this law and I would bet that it will not stay in it's current form. That will happen irregardless of who wins on Nov 2nd.

Show me one thing the federal government has touched in the last twenty years that hasn't gone to complete schit? One thing. On thing only.

Working Man - the Democrats took out the public option - they only had 42 democrats willing to fall on the sword for the public option. In the House there were 50+ Democrats who were refusing to sign on until some caved for money or campaign help this fall.

Remember how the Big three were "too big to fail"? One of the things that will occur is multiple reverberations throughout our economic system. My wife's boss was notified this week that the owner of a business was borrowing to stave off bankruptsy and was trying to keep the company floating until he could sell the business. When the business is sold that her boss would no longer be the CPA for them. Because that business didn't pay for services in a timely manner this month, Her boss could not cash his paycheck or pay bills making the bills all late.

The company, in case you didn't guess IS one of the remaining 500 health insurance companies.

hww

Walterpaul,

The only thing worse than the insurance companies running it is to have the government involved in it. They cannot run ANYTHING right. You can bet the worst is yet to come with the government in charge.

So, according to you neither the insurance companies nor the government can manage and provide health care to Americans properly. Who the hell is left? Do we just say F' it? Maybe out source health care management to China? Brilliant! NOT! If you are sick or injured and can't pay for treatment, tough, suck it up and die gracefully? Just like the guy from Tennessee whose house the fire department allowed to burn down to the ground with his pets inside because he didn't pay a $75 fee? Just friggen pathetic! What the hell is wrong with allowing people the OPTION of buying into medicare on a sliding scale. People that want to keep their premier ripoff health care plans would be free to continue overpaying all they want. At least a reasonable option would be available to average middle class working folks. I'm still waiting for the Party of NO and their Tea Party faction to publicly state their solutions to the health care situation in our country. Any ideas? Any at all?

As Obama administration officials put into place the first major wave of changes under the health care legislation, they have tried to defuse stiffening resistance — from companies like McDonald’s and some insurers — by granting dozens of waivers to maintain even minimal coverage far below the new law’s standards.

The first of many "CHANGES" to Obama's Universal Mandated Health Care Single Payer Reform legislation and the dad gum thing hasn't hardly got off the ground yet. Expect more to come to appease the general public and small businesses, and to let everyone know this Administration is looking OUT FOR YOU!!!

If this happens, THE MANDATED HEALTH CARE REFORM will SELF-DESTRUCT under it's own weight (and geeeez, is it heavy).

Guess it is time for the President to get back on the campaign trail or generate more I LUV U HEALTH CARE REFORM TV advertisements from Hollywood to promote an already signed legislation.

What a joke !!!

this is a prime example of how anything but single payer is just @!$%#. All u people out there that think socialized medicine is bad need to pay a visit to Britain or Canada. My advice is to talk to people out there who actually live there like i have. There are so much lies about how the Britshis or Canadians health care is worse than ours. All the self interest people want u to be ignorant otherwise u would demand single payer like the Canadians (it was not forced on them they demanded it). Dont trust greedy republicans or insurance companies GO TO THE SOURCE!

hint - if u cant afford to go to these countries chat rooms are your friend!

Thank you DB - this constant modification of history is unbelievable. This issue is a mess for a minority of people. That is the start of the problem.

Many people do not need health insurance. Probably the vast majority of us could pay our own way and never need a serious amount of healthcare until we are very old.

A few are in desperate need of lots of healthcare. Some are in need of consistent care.

Our trouble is that we've made "insurance" the method for which we pay, and it is a method and medium that doesn't work well - among other reasons, because of the profit issue with publicly held companies. Add to that the layers of administration and paperwork, and we have created a bloated, multi-layered system of inefficiency.

The trouble with Obama care is both that it was built on multiple houses of cards, sold dishonestly, and so we ended up with a steamy pile of crap.

Nothing done nationally works well - too much bureaucracy, too much overhead, too little oversight.

Healthcare needs to be a local thing - yes, portability needs to be addressed, but nationalizing it only guarantees fraud, waste, abuse and inefficiency. The entire system has to be dismantled and rebuilt state by state, city by city. Anything else is just a waste of time and money.

I cant believe people thank insurance companies for their help! Remember in mice and men when the smarter brother shoved his retarded brother in the river and when he pulled him out he thanked him for rescuing him, its just like that. insurance companies are FOR PROFIT not for u as much as they pay people to smile in their advertisements the are weeds and a cancer and they spend millions in lobbying and media to convince the public that they are needed when instead we would be far better off without them.

While it may be true that many of the GOP's ideas weren't exactly refreshingly NEW . . . it's beginning to appear that the DEMOCRATS HEALTHCARE BILL is in reality most of the same OLD thing merely WRAPPED in "new" packaging (all 2,000+ pages of it!).

As a previous poster observed, WHY couldn't the Democrats have started with restructuring the BASICS and worked forward from there -- instead of wasting over a year going for broke?

AFTER the special interests groups and the CURRENT deal-makers get done dismantling this NEW "reform" bill . . . I'm afraid it's going to QUACK big time!

No we can't turn back the hands of time -- but the present doesn't look all that much different than the past.

Yes, step right up folks. Welcome to the new/old 21st Century world order.

If you read the title of this news article, it sounds like specific corporations will simply not have to comply with the law. An effort to give the Republicans a talking point for the elections? Then you read the article and we are talking about short term waivers to get specific companies on board instead dropping out of the American Market. That sounds a whole bunch more reasonable and would not become a Republican talking point.

MSNBC needs to stay neutral instead of baiting right wing Republicans like this. We are talking about a nuance of difference the delusional right will not pay attention to in its urge for Obama bashing.

And here is the other side of the story. Anthem Blue Cross came out with a one third premium increase to its customers during the Health Reform Bill debate in congress, saying they would go bankrupt without such an increase. Then the news media discovered Anthem Blue Cross had been giving out exorbitant bonuses to executives and sponsoring lavish executive conventions - not exactly the picture of a corporation going broke. Recently they posted a ONE THIRD PROFITS INCREASE. That means more bonuses and conventions.

Tell me again why i have to belong to "this group" or "that group" to get decent medical coverage.

How about one big group of 310 million people?

This is the basic reason our health care system is flawed from the outset.

Which party opposed this idea?...Republicans?

Vote them out.

how much did they get in campagin contributions? Where are the dems yelling about big business? Next they will loosen the federal regulations on Wall Street in they drop a couple of hundred thousand in the collection plate for the next election...

My take on this matter is life is one big gamble, you can be alive today and dead tomorrow, so why would anyone have or be forced to have medical insurance, the only one it's good for is in the insurance, and medical business, if people want affordable medical insurance and medical everyone should cancel their insurance and watch how fast the cost comes down ........Business 101 supply and demand if the demand is down so is the price ..... Forcing people to have this medical insurance was just throwing the Fox in the Hen house ... I wonder who's pockets got filled on this one ...

LET THOSE INSURANCE COMPANIES GO OUT OF THE HEALTH CARE BUSINESS! YOU DON'T NEED THEM!!

You need universal health care runned by the government! This will be the only way for all americans to get good and affordable care. The government won't be in it for profit but to insure that no one dies because they can't afford this present and outrageous health care system.

I know what I am talking about, I do have universal health care and it is great!

Not really, the insurers arent aloowed to sell across state lines, and thats part of the problem. Lack of competition raises prices and lowers quality

Policy experts say much of the authority to enforce the new law rests with the states, and they say the federal government may have little ultimate control over whether insurers will keep offering coverage in specific markets.

So let me get this straight, Obama and his people passed this law saying the government would take care of us and make sure we are provided with better and cheaper health care. We all remember the bending the curve down statement. But now, policy experts are saying the people who have the power to enforce this are the states. Basically, the federal government is not in control? Is this one of those, "we passed the law, and it is a great law. If something goes wrong, it is somebody else's fault." In this case the somebody else is the state.

How much does somebody want to bet that if and when this law goes to pooh, it will be blamed on George Bush and the Republicans because they stopped it from being a single payer 100% government monopolized market? Darn you Bush for not letting the government have complete control of every aspect of my life. Long live emperor Obama! LOL

STexan

But then isn't that what this is all designed to do? ... to collapse the private health insurance industry forcing us ALL into an overwhelmed, understaffed, poorly qualified staffed medical care system, that will not work in the US, as it BARELY works in other smaller countries.

Funny how we're the only country in the world that cant seem to figure out how to take care of our sick.

And it does work in other smaller countries contrary to your claim. Germany, France, Switzerland and England has functioning systems that spend far less as a % of GDP.

Obama has made it clear through his actions and naive thinking that Republicans need to get back to power again. But I'm not saying this because I expect Republicans to improve anything but because I expect exactly the opposite: For the Republicans to destroy the country once again.

Hopefully, next time this happens Americans will wise up and elect a true leftist leader that will not try to accomadate the Powers That Be like Obama did by refusing to implement a public option for health care and by choosing Hilary Clinton for vice-president, and so on.

What an amazing dissapointment Obama has been, and what a freaking sell-out.

Another example of big business winning over the middle class. They have the money and alot more power than the voter has and will always win.

The ONLY way to fix this mess is with single payer health care for all. Screw the insurance companies. That would eliminate their greed and their inflated premiums.

Medicare has only a 3% overhead vs insurance companies's average overhead of 30% - at the taxpayers' expense.

This is favored by all - except greedy righties who are insisting on their greedy ways that will complete the destruction of the middle class started by reagun.

WalterPaul (post #1). You are obviously one of many people in this country that thinks insurance companies that actually make a profit are somehow devious. I don't understand the mentality of people like you and you are quite deceived and misinformed by the countless lies that were put out by Obama and his Dem-wit congress regarding the "huge profits" being made by insurance companies. Let me ask you (and people with your mentality) who tend to despise insurance companies who sell MEDICAL insurance these simple questions. If you think that there is so much profit in MEDICAL insurance, then consider these points:

(1) There are only a relatively few insurance companies that actually sell MEDICAL insurance in comparison to the total number of insurance companies that sell other forms of insurance. Why is that? ANSWER: There has been a steady decline every year in the number of insurance companies that sell MEDICAL insurance. Their profit margins have either been so low or non-existent that MEDICAL insurance just does not have much appeal to most insurance carriers as they sell ancillary products that are more profitable Just last week, another major insurance carrier, Principal Financial, announced that they are discontinuing the sale of MEDICAL insurance and instead, will sell only other ancillary products (such as dental, disability, life insurance, visioncare, etc.) which are much more profitable for them than MEDICAL insurance.

(2) If MEDICAL insurance is so hugely profitable as Obama and his DEM-wit congressional idiots have maintained, why then is there only a few insurance carriers selling MEDICAL insurance and why haven't insurance companies been lining up in droves over the past years to sell it? ANSWER: Because they have trouble making a profit on MEDICAL insurance and for those who do make a profit, it is generally very minimal in proportion to the premiums charged.

(3) Who is more effective and efficient at administering MEDICAL insurance: private insurance companies or the federal government? ANSWER: Obviously a no brainer. There is no one more inefficient than the federal government in knowing how to manage anything. The idea of federal government replacing privatization and capitalism as a better, and more efficient choice of handling MEDICAL care is a complete fallacy in every respect.

SUMMARY: Obamacare was nothing more than the product of a partisan, screwed-up, arrogant, devious, mis-informed self-serving liberal POTUS moron who happens to believe in social justice, anti-capitalism and ignores the Constitution. Unfortunately, a complete imbalance of congress enabled him to push through Obamacare which was a complete abomination and abuse of power, all in the namesake of healthcare reform. Obama and his administration attempted to support Obamacare with complete lies about "huge profits" of insurance companies selling MEDICAL insurance. It was an "in-your-face" blatant act of tyranny by Obama and his DEM congress against a large majority of American's who were opposed to this takeover and power grab and they knew it. They passed it in spite. Not to even include serious tort reform ( a very major contributor to the cost of medical insurance) was completely insane and irresponsible and it's omission was not an accident or oversight since the trial lawyers association is in the financial pockets of Obama and the DEM's. Duncancl (post #1.1) said it well. Obamacare was not at all what America wanted. Obamacare needs to be stopped now. It needs to be repealed as it is a terrifically bad piece of legislation that will ruin this nation. Obama and his congress all need to be fired and shipped out of the country.

Paul F

"Many people do not need health insurance. Probably the vast majority of us could pay our own way and never need a serious amount of healthcare until we are very old."

Can't say I agree with that especially, especially since the cancer rate in this country is getting close to 1 in 2 individuals, and that's something you cant forsee or control.

I wholeheartedly agree with running healthcare locally though. When people say to me "universal healthcare is socialist", I just say "let me ask you this. When the police come to your house to help, or the fire department put out your house on fire, before they leave, do they hand you a bill?" They don't, because they are social services our taxes pay for, and I'm sure everyone is grateful for it, so why not have healthcare be a social service?

But the key is it being locally run. I can't imagine how well police and fire would run if they were federally controlled. We would all burn.

And yet out of those countries the USA has the best cancer survival rates, holds the majority of R&D in medical research, and more doctors resulting in people being able to see specialists sooner than in other places. The whole rating of us being 30 some odd of industrialized nations only became that way because of cost.

The real shame of it all is that everybody focused on "health insurance" with this bill. Health insurance is a business, and businesses are meant to make money - if Congress had wanted to reform Health Care, they should have gone to the head of the snake to figure out what drives up costs and seen what could be done. Instead they've put the headlock on insurance companies, painted them as evil, and accelerated the cost of health care.

If you take on the head of the snake - everybody wins... the people without insurance, the people with it, the government... everybody.

Okay - so you declare "we don't need insurance companies" - and you know what, you're right. Fifteen years ago I was told that I could pay for insurance or save the money I would pay for insurance and get basically the same affect - it was never "you must have health insurance to have health care." This mentality only developed when health care costs went beyond a greater portion of what the population could afford... well duh, doesn't it make sense that your health insurance costs will rise with this? The only thing that has changed with this is that health insurance companies have gotten more and more aggressive in beating down the price a doctor can charge them for an insurance companies client - if they didn't do that... nobody would have insurance because the health care cost is just that ridiculously high.

We have to take on the head of the snake and stop screwing around with things that have barely a thing to do with the cost.

While providing a few decent protections to consumers, this bill was already a giveaway to Big Pharma.

Now, with "waivers"in place for companies already marinating in profits, I am wondering why the bill was even passed.

It will take another generation before Health Reform has any actual bite. And then, the Rich Class will represent 15% of the country, the Middle Class will represent 10% of the country, and the Poor will represent 75% of the population.

Thank you 30 years of Reaganomic, Party of No, Trickle-Down economics.

Thought it was only repubs who were in bed with big bizz.

This reform is a joke!

Brandon

Its was the dumbcrats that passed this reform.

Health Insurance is a businnes and does exist to make money, but it's all getting out of control, because no one really understands how insurance companies work. The system as a whole is is eating it own tail.

Here is an example: I currently work for a Healthcare company. The company I work for does NOT provide insurance, does NOT provide actual healthcare, does NOT create medical equipment, or ANY type of physical product related to healthcare, and yet my company pulls in $6 Billion a year. It is a company that knows what the errors are in healthcare and, instead of working to correct them, simply cleans up the mess and takes a profit from it. Imagine being on a ship taking on water, and instead of hiring a company to fix the hole in the boat, you hire a company to continually scoop water out of the boat at the same rate the water is flowing in.

And thats just ONE company.......

I hate that I work for this company, but in this economy, I can't really leave my job.

Does America need universal health coverage? Yes.

Do we need to dump pre-existing conditions? Yes.

Was Obama insane when he tried to tell us that adding people with pre-existing conditions and people whom in 2008 were "uninsurable" would not add a single penny, in fact cost less? yes.

Is Obama wrong when he forces business to pay for the coverage and then is surprised when business slows hiring? Yes.

Is it time to tariff goods and use some of the revenue created to pay for health care insurance, while making manufacturing cheaper here bringing back jobs? Yes.

The waivers have been issued in the last several weeks as part of a broader strategic effort to stave off threats by some health insurers to abandon markets, drop out of the business altogether or refuse to sell certain policies.

And so much for all of the stupid lemmings who believed the state run talking points that the government plan would just be a little competition, it would not put private insurance out of business.

Those of us who don't need government welfare are growing ever more tired and irritated at being robbed of our money and now our healthcare, in order for the government to continue its fleecing of anyone who isn't poor, under the guise of 'helping' others. As a Republic, being outnumbered is NOT supposed to result in being fleeced by the government. Unfortunately, our state run school systems and media have brainwashed most to believe we are a democracy and that a majority can do whatever it wants to anyone's property, income and now healthcare, as long as they outnumber them. This is EXACTLY what our founding fathers tried to stop from happening with our Constitution.

Steelman......Obama didn't do this for Healthcare Reform (that's obvious because the Quality of Healthcare wasn't even addressed by his bill). Obama did this to ....."Make History" remember? That was his main concerned, along with having a "Vote Pandering Talking Point"!!!! ;-)

Mdionne....Obama and Crew didn't want to hear or even consider any Republican ideas. That's WHY Obama held secret meetings and kicked the Repubs out!!! No this is OBAMA'S BABY Now.....His was supposed to have All the Correct Ideas & Solutions and put them in the bill. OH But that's Right He didn't read it therefore believed the Lies his was told then was Stupid enough to stand on National TV and Spew those same lies. Oh No this is Obama's & the Dems fiasco!!! An Obama Bribed Through Bill that's blatantly shows Favortism & Payoffs within it, and now shows Favortism & Payoffs to opt out of His "History Making Bill". Hope You enjoy paying an extra tax on All Medical Supplies, while paying for 2 yrs of Nebraska's and Virginia's Medicaid - Did You know You're a Corn Husker Supporter??? {:-P

Both sides claim "we tried".

The more everyone reads this bill the more they run from it. Its gona pass a huge tax burden onto the working class. Do you really think people that dont pay taxes and other bills are gonna pay the fine for not having health insurance? But they be the first one to run to the hospital.

I can see all the criminals paying for it(ya right). but yet their gunshot wounds,drug issues and children who dont know who there father is will be there wasting the money for this bill.

Health insurance, like other forms of insurance, is a form of collectivism by means of which people collectively pool their risk, in this case the risk of incurring medical expenses. The collective is usually publicly owned or else is organized on a non-profit basis for the members of the pool, though in some countries health insurance pools may also be managed by for-profit companies, for-profit Health Insurance companies here in the states have gone to extreme unethical measures and tactics to profit off our citizens. Health Care companies are not a buisness selling widgets. Figure it out if you can, then lets here your fix.

Non-profit. Do you really believe that?

The parts of this bill that are causing problems are the parts that everyone says they want, democrats and republicans.

no lifetime limits

no preexisting conditions

These are the issues insurers are complaining about.

It is interesting that medicare pays more per patient to private "medicare advantage" programs then it spends itself. Doesn't say much about how efficient private insurance is.

Fully one-sixth of our GDP goes directly to the for-profit healthcare industry. This is a sin. And both Democrats are in bed with these greedy parasites because there is sooooooo much money involved.

So it begins....

Companies that have lots of money and lobbyists get to bypass the law.

What good is a law if some don't have to follow it?

I guess we are all created equal, some more equal than others

Irrelevant as to this specific bill or issue, this is the crux of the problem we face in this country. Just like "free" trade.......................

So begins the collapse of HCR.

If a company doesn't make any money, the game is over. OBAMA_UNCARE will drive ALL the insurance companies out of business, which is exactly what they want.

Then the Goverment controls who gets well and who stays sick or dies. I don't know about you but I don't want some dumba$$ federal worker telling me what I can get treatment for, and what costs too much money to treat.

Since goverment care will be free to those that can't pay, they will be in the hospital for every Boo-Boo. And since the only employer will be your Uncle Sam, There will no longer be an incentive for smart kids to go into medicine in the US. All the doctors will be from countries other than the US, because even though the goverment will not pay well, they will pay well-enough to bring doctors here from Uganda, Kenya, China and Vietnam, among others.

So get ready for your children and grand-children, not you, to be treated by someone for whom English may not be there 1st or 2nd language. Get ready for hospitals to fall into disrepair, for a local doctors office to disappear. All of this will occur when there is no competion and no profit to be gained through superior job performance.

Look what is hapening in Detroit to a once strong manufacturing community where price drove out business. That is what will occur to our un-HeathCare system un the incompetent leadership of the now President BHObama.

Boy, This goes to show you that Obamacare is a disgrace and the Democrats should be a shamed of themselves for even going along with this bill. Well, whats ironic is that these elected officials will not even be proud of their a complishments of passing this crappy bill and the stimulus pork bill and cash for clunkers garbage which was a waste, bailouts ect..... Obama even tried to make hismself look good in front of wall street fat cats and the rest of the world but these so called fat cats are mosly liberal and support Obama. What a show performance by this administration. Well you stupid voters out there in Obamaland I hope you all like your new "CHANGE"? FOR ME I SAY TO YOU ALL, YOU GOT SHORT CHANGED. HA,HA. Next time voters wise up and don't fall for all these to good to be true ideas coming out of a smooth talking inexperience thug from Chicago, do your research before your so quick to jump to the voting booth.

PhantomBeast - WOW - that was one heck of a post. I'm glad you're not the President of the United States. You scare me.

This bill did nothing to regulate the costs of healthcare. The idiot in the office just had a hard on for insurance companies and fooled America in believing they were going to get everything for free. Wait to your renewal premiums come out this year and you will see big increases because the addition in covering preventive services at 100% and removing lifetime maximums, etc. Do you know who will pick up the costs, you and I. Why doesn't the government work with Ins Companies, Hospitals, Drug manufactures and figure out a way to reduce the costs.
As for the people who make the claim Medicare's overhead is only 3% has no idea what they are talking about they just heard someone on MSNBC. If Medicare was so well run why does the government use Insurance Companies to handle for all there claims processing and farm out all the call centers. I bet most of you didn't even know when you call Medicare you are not talking to a government employee....

If bg business gets a 1 year delay in the new Health Care Reform, then all Americans should get the same.

REVOLUTION people. Once again, the elitist/rich getting breaks while everyone else has to cough up money if they have no health-care insurance.

PhantomBeast- you say heads will role. You gonna need uncle sam to do that for ya also?

Your the probelm with this country wanting the gov to wipe your a$$.

Does this mean somebody actually has now READ the bill?

This health care bill wasn't only created to see the uninsured got health care out of the "goodness of the govt. hearts". There were other motives here and other agenda is "tucked" in the bill. If the uninsured was the objective, why did the government have to consfiscate government student loans? And Obama had to have his PRIVATE ARMY to have at hand for "national emergencies". A private army that will rival our miitary and answerable ONLY to him???? And burden taxpayers with thousands of government IRS agents to police taxpayers?

IF the uninsured were the objective, then why not just expand medicaid as another poster suggested? Let the uninsured use medicaid and let us choose between private and government. If the govt just allowed medicaid by payscale, offering free to the indigent and working poor, then this would solve the issue of uninsured. I even would be willing to see a national sales tax be implemented to fund this, say 2 cents? Using a sales tax would be the fairest way...as even those on welfare and the ones benefitting the most from the free health care received at least would be contributing SOMETHING toward their healthcare! BUT, if a health care bill has to include funding for government student loans that will be eventually forgiven, and a private army for Obama, then we all know what was planned under the "guise" of "health care".

All the agenda Obama is striving to put in place, looks like a communist takeover plan...internet control, martial law, private civilian army, personal Czars, erasing sovereignity, takeover of corporations....hmmmm. And don't forget this bill below....entire population of America from 18 to 42 mandatory service!!!!

Universal National Service Act
http://www.govtrack.us/congress/billtext.xpd?bill=h111-5741

Great, my insurance rates went up by nearly 20% two months ago due to the HC law. Now Obama is handing out one year "waivers" to ALLOW PEOPLE TO KEEP THEIR INSURANCE which Obama promised us. He didn't say "People will be able to keep their medical insurance for no longer then 1 year".

What a COMPLETE joke this administration and Congress is. The Republicans are far less then perfect and the Democrats are OFF the radar of common sense.

Sickness and death for profit, bankster bail outs, and war profiteering is all the elite is about. We need universal health care like United Kingdom, Canada and France NOW! It will take a Revolution because the spawn that run this country are infinitelyy greedy and think everybody who is not should be their slaves. They the Republicans and Blue dog Democrats hate America and want to destroy it. They continue to ship our jobs over seas to maximize their filthy profits they get for providing no goods or services to anyone they have bastardized the US and now want the whole planet, who are they? They are ZIONAZIS. Look it up, their recent ancestors paid Hitler and made the Haavara agreement with him. They lie and tell us that only Jews died in WWII while over 3 million Polish Christians were exterminated along with poorer Jews, Gypsies and others, while the ZioNazis hoarded up the money in Swiss bank accounts that still have not been audited to this day. Wake up people! An Evil worse then the devil rules over us and we let them.

Memo inercepted from Obama's BlackBerry to Senior Party Members:

Comrads,

So the glorious revolution finally begins in ernest. Even the capitalist pigs at McDonalds must grovel before our greatness as the first in a growing line of supplicants ground under the People' boot heel of Nationalized Heath Control.

But be wary. Until our Comrads in the EPA complete our take over of of all the means of production in the United States we remain vulnerable. Therefore keep lying to the People about the destruction wreaked by the People's Laws and grant "temporary exemptions" for now. When all citizens are subjugated to the People's will they will be happy. We can reeducate anyone who objects.

Your Glorious Leader

(The above is a fictional account for educational purposes only. )

for those saying that other countries have such great govt run healthcare, please explain why so many people come to the united States for various voluntary surgeries. Some Americans go to other countries to try to get cheaper drugs, but NO ONE goes to other countries for elective surgeries. We HAD the best health care in the world but Obama is determined to change that.

As one of his quotes for 2008 campaign said. "We live in the greatest country in the world. Join with me as we try to change it."

He's doing his best to run us all into the ditch.

Wow! I voted for Obama and hope for change. WHAT IS GOING ON at the White House? First the news yesterday about holding onto critical info re the BP spill, now this! Plus, we're having to apologize to Pakistan for bombing them! So disappointed!! I sure won't vote Republican/Tea Party. It makes it pretty hard to convince the young people I know to even vote. Sad!!! I need more choices, cuz we can't just leave the White House empty.

So it begins. The large corporations get waivers to bypass this abomination of a law but the small companies, the ones that provide the majority of jobs, get screwed. What do you think will be the reaction of the small employers? The answer is that not only will there be no new hiring but they will lay off workers.

What can one expect when you have a clueless, incompetent socialist academic running things.

And has anybody wondered why UNION officials had to be included in closed door meetings with Obama throughout the entire health care ordeal???? What have THEY got to do with deciding health care for the indigent????????? Do you see what is going on here??? REPEAL this BILL!! We need to vote out ALL DEMS quickly!

Documents Detail Meetings with Union Officials, Joe Biden, Nancy Pelosi, Harry Reid and Obamacare Czar Nancy-Ann Min DeParle

http://www.judicialwatch.org/news/2010/aug/judicial-watch-obtains-new-documents-related-closed-door-obamacare-meetings

darrell-473614

As one of his quotes for 2008 campaign said. "We live in the greatest country in the world. Join with me as we try to change it."

THanks for posting!!! This is a good one!!! And "change" is what we're getting allright!!!

What I think is rediculous about this is...the health care system was like a decent domestic car that wasn't exactly pretty, but did the job, was fairly decent on gas,but was really in need of a tune-up and alot of weight trimming.

So, rather than fixing it, we were FORCED to but a POS import thats ugly, will get crappy milage, no one wants to drive, and will be overly prone to break down, require constant maintanence and, in the end...will cost many times as much to opperate...

Great idea odumbo, you stupid #&*^in' A-hole

The bottom line is these are BUSINESSES! They need to make profit and they need to answer to their stockholders. The fed wants to be into everything and be completely controlling. They're only backing off right now because of an election! How come we as the people could see what was wrong with this law and the politicians could not? Possibly because they are exempting themselves from the law as they do with most laws. It doesn't have their self interest at heart.

This country needs business growth to fix our economy and the fed passed this stupid law that slows business growth. How does this fix the economy? How does this fix healthcare? What a bunch of idiots!

Repeal this law. Repeal this government. And if you want to stay healthy, perhaps you should consider NOT eating at Mcdonalds...

Hey Obama supporters!! Yeah, YOU! What do you think of your beloved master now? He's caving into big business.... What a leader! Isn't it the liberals who are always railing against big business??? Looky now... Obama has just folded. I wonder how much he got in pay offs. Or maybe political favors...

The funny thing is... Obama caves in and the democrats blame the republicans! What a JOKE! Maybe you should blame GWB... you are really good at that game... and yes it's a game...

Democrats - why don't you just face reality. Your party is the party of lies, deception, corruption and one H E double hockeysticks of a witch running your party. Turn independent. Start thinking for yourselves for a change.. get a clue!

Its strange that this administration is worse then W's and yet no one makes the connection that both sides of our government are the same. The only people that think differently are the sheeple that our government is controlling.

Ddionne,

That option you were seeking is called Walmart. All of you will live to see the day that you go to Walmart to see the doctor.

Welcome to the corporate oligarchy. This system works by keeping the masses controlled with a polarized nationalistic government base.

While you idiots debate which political party is the worse of the two, the rich people are packing up the last bits of wealth in America and will be moving on out soon. Haliburton has already moved to Dubai to start building the castles of the ultra wealthy!

PhantomBeast

You have issues dude. You need to funnel any problems with this Bill to your own elected officials and by the way; ARMED REVOLUTION? Please your party is the one that is trying to take all the guns away from everyone while the party you are wanting to go to war with has the guns. How do you think that would turn out Einstein?

Where are all the knuckleheads that were screaming about what a great job Obama did and how it was so great that Pelosi followed Reid and got this idiotic Bill passed. Where are the ones that touted the pre-existing conditions clause and said that this was the next best thing to sliced bread. Well I guess Nancy was right they had to pass it to find out what was in it and know Obama is running from it.

The Dems own this lock stock and barrel. They forced the vote through without any support from the Republican party and Obama owns it because he was more than happy to sign off on it and now he is giving away waivers to try to keep it all hush hush. Everyone should have known that there was going to be major problems with the Bill since it was done behind closed doors in the Sh%t house, with bribes and arm wrenching before it passed. So the only ones to blame are Pelosi, Reid, Obama, and all the good boys and girls that followed the lead of the Wicked Witch of the West. I guess I answered my own question. Those on the VINE that supported this stupid law are now groveling in their holes afraid to come out and defend the President's current actions.

All as Darrell can do is repeat the same lie the sickness and death for profit spawn invented. If you pay attention, the truth is people are getting their drugs from Canada and going to Mexico to get Lasic eye surgery and other operations. Keep up the parroting and maybe the ZIONAZI sickness and death for profit spawn will throw you some crumbs off their table, my other brother Darrell.

There is nothing in the Health care bill, giving the executive branch of the Government the legal authority to determine who or what company is excluded; there are exclusions in the bill, Amish, Mormons, Muslims, seventh-day but unless named in the legislation the President has no authority; were the hell is congress, it appears this administration believes it has dictatorial powers !

btw,

McDonald's wanted an exemption because they sell their employees McDonald's insurance. Nearly non existent coverage that McDonald's profits from by selling it to their own employees.

Thats right folks. McDonald's didnt complain because it would cost them money. They complained because thieves hate competition...

Angry 1000: When Health care equals sickness and death for profit and the insurance companies and corporate health care providers answer to their stockholders rather than the patient's health it is one step away from the gas chambers of the Holocaust. And you seem to be eating it right up with a grin on your face.

Regardless of the law its now down to picking and choosing who's in or out???? So it really isn't manditory unless we can pay you for voting????

If that isn't corrupt I don't know what is!!!!!!!!

BrianB,

He caved pretty fast to BP Oil.

Granted if anyone bothered to do some research they would of found out that the rockstar has been in BP's pocket since he was a junior senator.

I guess BP picked their horse wisely.

Paulson,

Thats why socialism cannot work. Everyone has their buddies and everyone owes favors. We are to young of a society to live in a utopia.

White House allows big firms to dodge health reforms

So just how big is a "big firm"? Over 50 employees? Over 200? Regardless of the exact number of employees, the reality is that some companies are going to get waivers while the rest of us get to keep on paying increase premiums, etc.

You just just gotta love the idea of all people being treated as equals.

Wiavers to Directive 10-289 will be issued in direct proportion to campaign contributions.

Ignore Phantom Beast, he gets paid by the dumbocrats to come on these boards to stir of trouble and see who responds in what way.

His message is one of complete ignorance and dumbassism..........lol

The dumbocrats (or should I say the Federal Bank) knows that to be able to control the people, you have to take away their ability to fight back.

I've actually been surprised how much they have been pushing and forcing their trash down our throats and so quickly at that. Usually they are satisfied with taking away our rights slowly, very slowly. It tells me that something is coming down the pipes.........very soon.

And one of their "selling points" at the Dem rally in Washington just this past weekend was "being against big corporations"... what a bunch of clowns.

american for israel-Ignore Phantom Beast, he gets paid by the dumbocrats to come on these boards to stir of trouble and see who responds in what way.

His message is one of complete ignorance and dumbassism..........lol

you're not helping your side's cause with stupid, outright lies like this. dumbassism? you are the republicans version of phantom beast.

"The collapse of health care reform"

I didn't know emotionally troubled, radical conservatives were now smoking medicinal hash. You can get it from your emotionally troubled, radical liberals that you pretend to hate so much.

What conservatives should be cheering is how stupid it looks when you go to enact a law that you based your campaign on, while touting 'taking on big business' and then the two-faced move of giving those big businesses a waiver. What a joke! Not unlike being pro-military and asking your politician dad to keep you in a safe location while you serve. It is as hypocritical as a person can get. I just still laugh at that Obama/Bush haters think there's another politician out there who is 'better' LOL

@ HATR_HURTER: Yawn..........lies? What lies? Please explain how what I said about dumbassism is a lie???? I used a made up word to bring some humor. Do you really think Phantom Beast brings a productive response to this conversation? Or is he just trying to get people to turn against each other?

Helping my side? Which side is that? How do you know what side I'm on? Just because I said that............. you assume I'm a rep? So because I have Israel in my name are you going to assume I'm a Jew?

But go ahead with your explanation of my lies first though............you're really going to make yourself look like a fool..............but can I assume you're a hater?

@ Derek-381097: Good point! Only thing I liked about Bush really was the speechs he made and how he slurred the words or said goofy things.

I'd like to see an average Joe go for President and win, someone that knows what its like to grow up in the middle class and have an average job. Just to be an average person. Not a lawyer, judge, congressman, etc.

It is a Democratic bill; come fall we need to remember that. We do need something, but:

WE can't afford this bills debt. The seniors can't afford the hit they are going to take. WE can't afford the doctor shortage. We can't afford someone deciding if you get treatment or how much.

Unless all insurance companies and hospitals become government run this bill is going to cause a huge problem. NOW Obama gives the large comapnies a break. They have the money and the man power to figure out how to put the things in place. A owner of a small business who works 40 hours + a week to keep the company a float - doesn't have the money or the man power. Is Mexico looking for more jobs?

This bill is BS! The fact that big corp. America can side step this bill or any is BS! The US government is BS! Wake up, voting is no longer the answer!

So, tell us, Thisguy..what is the answer?

When HCR was grinding through, a lot of folks realized that it did little to control rates. BO in a speech several weeks ago admitted they couldn't stop rising rates, just try to control them. They had a picture of 1 woman diagnosed with cancer getting a policy for $445.00 a month; then, I read about another hitting $2,000 a month. The insurers have 50 million new customers and they can charge what the market can bear. I figured that group insurers would have to get in on the act. It's a mess getting messier.

As I read these posts....I despair sometimes, I really do. Americans will believe damn near anything.

Health care in this country will never be "solved" because we don't want to look at any of the actual facts, and frankly if we did we wouldn't want to make any necessary changes.

Party politics is all well and good, but there are certain things that are not true no matter what conservatives want to think and certain things that cannot be changed no matter how many liberals agree they should.

The Law of Large Numbers cannot be repealed despite the fact that it's not biblical. Nor does it matter how many liberals "feel strongly" that it is a tyrannical infringement on their rights.

So conservatives:

• Selling insurance across state lines will NOT, repeat NOT increase competition and lower prices. There are only a handful of health insurance companies left anyway, and almost all sell nationwide already. Your friend in TX has lower rates in NY because the cost of living is lower and doctors make less...it's that simple.
• Tort reform does not lower healthcare costs. It has been enacted in several states. It has about as much impact on healthcare costs as whether Manchester United or Chelsea win the English Premier League.

and for the Liberals:

• Yes, massive amounts of money go to the profits of healthcare providers. The king profiteers in that group? DOCTORS! Yes, that's right. US docs are the highest paid in the world, and make 2/3 more than the next closest country.
• Insurance company profits amount to less than .01% of healthcare costs annually. There was never any cost savings to be found by barking up that tree, but crusading against "corporations" makes good politics.
• Creating a "bigger pool" will not lower insurance costs. That only works to a certain extent, and almost all health insurance companies passed that tipping point a long time ago.

We were screwed the minute single-payor was off the table.

But this issue is only one facet of a much bigger issue.

Question: Why do so many people support policies that are against their best interests?

Answer: The overlords of this system are Masters of Spin and they know how to deceive the naive and simple-minded.

As long as large numbers of the American public at large remain simple-minded, poorly educated, uninformed, and "too busy" to take the time to look beneath the surface to assess issues and policy, nothing is going to change. The income gap will continue to widen and Joe Q. Citizen's fortunes will continue to dwindle away. Vanishing health insurance benefits are only one small part of that deterioration.

One day, Joe Q. will wake up to discover that he and his have become nothing more than serfs, enslaved to a de facto aristocracy.

While promising freedom, the system handed him slavery.

Derek - Just can't let go of the republican bashing, can you? Have you ever taken a look at what the democrat party is doing to destroy our country, our economy and our policital system? Here you rail against the republicans while totally ignoring all the evils of the democrats. Is your mind that closed?

The democrats OWN the horrible health care bill. Now Obama is caving in to the interests of big business... first with BP, now with McDonalds... and all you can come up with is republican bashing? You need to get a clue and a new approach.

YotaJosh - What have the insurance companies done to you to spawn so much hatred? Did they deny your viagra prescription? Just wondering.

Ignorance comes in many forms. To see posts like 1.103, one must wonder how hate can generate so rampantly. This poster will stand there and say how much the right exhibits hatred but can't see the overflowing hate within his own mind.

Insurance companies aren't the problem. Government is the problem. Regulations, laws and legislation that has passed through the years have hamstringed the insurance industry. Not allowing interstate commerce to flow has raised rates. Does anyone wonder why people in California pay so much while in states with less illegals the rates are lower? Those paying the fare, pay for those that don't. It's that simple. How many illegals are you paying for each week in premiums?

How easy it is for the ignorant ones to blame insurance companies but totally ignore the root causes... and what's even worse is for those same individuals to make such idiotic remarks without looking into what the real problems are.

So, as I read these posts, it amounts to partisan bickering and no real solutions to the problem at hand. That is ( For Profit Health Insurance Companies can no longer do business as usual ) The current HC bill is not perfect and needs changes which can be done. You may see posts from actual HC companies trying to derail any type of future progress, or the famous "government takeover our lives" card. You may be happy with your current HC plan so you have no interest in fixing the corruption with current HC companies and rebel. Human beings are not widgets when it comes to healthcare. Citizens of the United States deserve a non-profit HC system that works. More and new doctors will be on board in future as part of the current plan. What we need are solid solutions to achieve this new HC goal. Not dwell on the current situation that can be fixed. Not feel sorry for current HC companies.

@ YotaJosh: Back in the 1780s, a group of outgunned, out numbered, patriotic people, took on the BIGGEST NATION and most powerful country in the world and WON their freedom from the taxes and tyranny that was brought upon them. There was a smaller group of people that wanted to continue to live under that tyranny. They were called Tories.

How about you and your buddies go get some new tats that say "Tories for life"

FOR PROFIT healthcare is part of capitalism. There are PLENTY, and I mean PLENTY of county and city owned hospitals and clinics that give free service.

There is a law called IMTALA, that requires ALL hospitals, profit or not, to provide life threating services without charging money.

FOR PROFIT hospitals..........do you know how many people they employee, do you know how many people insurance companies hire?

I don't consider myself a demo or rep anymore. I'm a free lower middle class single father you throws the middle finger at you YotaJosh and your left-wing trolls.

I will always be free and will die free. I will not accept anymore government run programs that cost me more tax money to pay for the lazy people in this country.

My kids are the ones who will have to pay, so that's when it gets VERY personal people. You ever seen a lion protect its cubs?

You keep going with that trash coming out of your mouth. Come on down here to my part of the country and see what happens. People are getting tired of ran over by you and yours.

So no YotaJosh, how about you "GO PHUK YOURSELF". As far as I'm concerned, you're all bark and no bite, you, Phantom Beast, HATR_HURTER. Bunch of Tories.........

And so it begins! This was a badly written Health-Care Bill, full of "handouts and payoffs" for sustaining Congressional votes. This bill will be initially financed by businesses struggling in today's economy, with annual sales of $250,000. (please note, sales don't mean profits-out of sales comes the business costs: payroll, insurance, inventory costs, advertising, monthly lease payments, etc. You know, NORMAL BUSINESS COSTS!) OR, 50 or more employees. What businesses don't pay; Medicare costs will, as approximately 50 Billion will be allocated away from Medicare for this Health-Care Bill start up costs. Of course, we are all told, it will provide better health care for us.

My question is? What happens when you lose your job, because your employer can't afford to carry this mandatory insurance? What happens when seniors can't afford the premium payments? What happens when this government controlled healthcare decides it isn't "cost effective" to pay for your very expensive "pre-existing" condition?

And best of all, what do you think about a President, that wanted our military soldiers "in harm's way" to pay for their own Health-Care coverage premiums? (yes, this is true, until Military Generals and fellow Democrats convinced President Obama, this move was political suicide). I will let you draw your own conclusions to horrible ramifications of wounded military unable to pay their medical coverage. However, why would a President who is also "Commander and Chief" of the Military even consider such an action? This doesn't speak much about our President does it?

What really should infuriate everyone is the fact, there were some very well written health care reform bills before Congress, by both Democrats and Republican Sponsors. Those bills weren't even given consideration, because the "Terrible Trio" (Barack Obama, Nancy Pelosi & Harry Reid) were pushing for this win at any cost... That should have been apparent to everyone.

Now, the "Icing on the Cake", President Obama is giving waivers from this mandatory Healthcare Reform, to "Big Business". It has nothing to do with "hiring minimum wage employees". McDonald's Corporation, for one, lists record breaking profits on a regular basis. Doesn't this make a person wonder how much these Monster Corporations have pledged in 2012 Campaign Donations to obtain these Presidential waivers?

All I ever hear on the Internet from Obama Supporters is complaints about "Republican Millionaires spending their money on campaigns and getting tax breaks (like a Democrat Millionaire never used his own funds for campaigning or get tax breaks! How soon you forget John Kerry and his heiress wife's campaign contributions)."

Well, isn't this the "Pot calling the kettle black." It's okay for a Democrat President to give Health-Care Tax Breaks to Monster Corporations... and, we are all suppose to accept this double standard because he is a Democrat and Barack Obama? Right!

Well, America... How do you like Barack Obama's "Change to Believe In" now?

I can see why Big Corporate America doesn't want their employess to have good Mental Health and get off drugs.

YOTA JOSH

"Only a bunch of treasonous, proudly-retarded, paid right-wing trolls would think that FOR-PROFIT healthcare is swell".

So Einstein, you think a Doctor shouldnt get paid for treating you when you get sick? Should the nurse not get compensated for changing your sheets when you wet your bed because you are too sick to get up? Should the psychiatrist not get paid when he tries to cure your feeble mind? If you think that Canada or France or Germany have a better system then move. I have been to other countries and have seen the health care provided and have actually experienced the Universal Health care that Europe has to offer. Guess what. I like any other sane person would rather pay a competent doctor and staff for their services then to just have anyone work on me. Our health care at the provider level is second to none. Why else do you think that the rich from all over the world come here for heart surgery or any of the more complex operations?

Get a clue and quit drinking the kool aid. You get what you pay for, its that simple. The costs of health care here are not cheap and in some cases they are a rip off but for the large part our doctors are the best trained and the most competent and if they screw up they have to pay. Unlike say Germany, where if the doctor screws up you will not get to sue for millions. Instead you will get what they feel you would have earned during the period where you couldnt work.

Well companies come and companies go! I don't give a crap about companies that are giving a bonus to the CEO in these hard times. If those companies don't care about this country and what their charges do to its people why would I care about them? Im not a slave to them. I want a government that says I dont have to be a slave to their profits, or for their profits. If you guys think that's what made this country great your crazy. Hey Im all for making a buck but I am an american first and if making a buck come at the cost of destroying this country then screw the money. I wont apologize to the insurance companies or any other company that fired people to maintain a profit margin. We have all take a hit and so should they. If it means operating at a loss for a few years then so be it. If you believe in this country and I think they should then you know that things will turn around. You have good years and bad, but you don't sacrifice the countries workers for profit. That to me is unamerican. That to me is treason.

I admit that I do not know all of the details of this plan as we "the people" only get to see what they want us to see. I definitely do not think government run healthcare is the answer however, something needs to be done.

I am currently paying over $4500 a year to ensure my daughter and myself. Thankfully we are healthy and only visit the doctor for annual check ups. We just completed these check ups and on top of paying the monthly fee I have received a bill from my primary, lab, dentist, etc. I paid over 1,000 in out of pocket expenses. Medications are costly even with my coverage. I've had some heart issues lately and my doctor requested that I have a nuclear stress test. Well, my insurance decline it. My doctor resubmitted and it was approved but i have to pay $3k out of pocket to have it done which I don't have due to my husbands unemployement. So i will not be getting the test. My father in-law needs a triple bypass and has been unable to have it because his platelets are low and the medication needed to raise them cost $1500 which he dosn't have. He has medicare and AARP plus a 3rd insurance and none of them cover this medication.

I don't know how a family that lives on minimum income or much lower than mine could afford it.

I don't have the answers but know something is definitely wrong with our current system.

@ Tired of McBush: ???????????????? WTF you talking about?

"I wont apologize to the insurance companies or any other company that fired people to maintain a profit margin. We have all take a hit and so should they."

What does that mean? Tell me one company that does not lay off or fire people to keep a profit margin? Did you not take Ecom 101? If a company stops making a profit then people who own their stocks in that company will sell it because they won't get a dividend. Watch the news market, every quarter if a company post that they went negative and made no profit, watch their stocks go down that day. Seriously???? HELLO????? Go take your smart pill for the day.

"You have good years and bad, but you don't sacrifice the countries workers for profit."

This is called capitalism...........go back to the Cold War and live in Russia during Communism or go work for a union and pay 25% of your money to that Union, then you get guanteeed to have a job full time.

Polli-psycho

Then the Goverment controls who gets well and who stays sick or dies. I don't know about you but I don't want some dumba$$ federal worker telling me what I can get treatment for, and what costs too much money to treat.

Gee... guess who does it now? Instead of a federal worker telling you that - you get a kind, warm hearted insurance representative. Makes it all better eh?

@ YotaJosh: STFU, go look at Canada and England. We can get a diabetic prescription in less then 2 weeks here in the USA, over in those two countries it takes more than 3 months. That's just the tip of the ice berg in the littlest of cases. Don't get me started on hip or knee replacements. Go live in Europe where they pay 50% taxes and get government run healthcare.

Don't know about you, but I don't want to pay 50% taxes. And if you really believe that wouldn't happen.............you sir are a moron then.

Go do research of countries that already do government run healthcare and tell me what happens and how much longer it takes to get proper care.

Soldiers protect us...........duh............there is no preexemption for them and their shouldn't be. You will not find one American to stand by your statement.

stexan -

this bill was intentionally designed to collapse the private health insurance industry and force all citizens (and illegals) into a gummint system that can't get simple payroll checks issued correctly for the military.

collapse the private health insurance industry - 3,000,000 more unemployed! the saul alinsky model at it's finest.

hww -

remember, this is the same gang that ran the famed Mustang Ranch first into bankruptcy, then into oblivion (after seizing it for tax evasion).

if they can't run a whorehouse profitable, in the proximity of Las Vegas, why the hell should we trust them with our lives?

@ Paul F. "Many people do not need health insurance. Probably the vast majority of us could pay our own way and never need a serious amount of healthcare until we are very old."

Insurance is exactly that. You pay for it when you don't need it so that it is there for you when you do. Hopefully, you never do. Try calling an insurance company saying "I just crashed my car and I'd like to get a policy that will pay for it." Perhaps the vast majority of us could pay for our own health care, as long as we don't get sick. Try dealing with a catastrophic illness on your own. There goes that nice little house, the cars, the retirement fund. If you aren't dead by the time those are gone, the taxpayers will still have to pay for your care. Do you think that somehow you are NOT going to get old? Obama's health care plan had to be watered down for exactly that reason. Young people think they are never going to get old, and healthy people think they are never going to get sick. I think it's a shame that the public option had to be stripped from the bill, but that had to be done in order to pass any bill at all. Yeah, the Dems had a majority in both houses but don't forget that a lot of the newer members were Democrats in name only and had been elected from Republican constituencies, only because of the abuses of the Bush/Cheney years. Sadly, the goal for members on both sides of the aisle is not just to get elected, but to stay elected. That doesn't leave them much wiggling room to do the right thing and to follow their conscience.

I just had a thought, perhaps someone else has stated it, I haven't read EVERY posting...but what if...McDonald's got a pass on the condition they clean up their menu to conform to the "first ding-bat's" agenda.

Go ahead and the let the insurance companies say they will tank their companies and companies say they wont provide coverage. All that we will end up with is universal health care, a public option. I know how much everyone loves that idea. Actually, there should have been a public option from the beginning.

Yoda - I guess you are OK with some Washington bureaucrat making life and death decisions over your healthcare.

The "system" you speak of stinks to high heavens. Tell me one government program that doesn't go over budget, is run well, actually helps society and is administered with efficiency. Name the program. Do you actually believe politicians and government employees are the top of the line?

With insurance companies, I get to choose, not the government. I pick the one that's best for me, not the government. If I don't like the rates, I shop around. If I don't like the services, I shop around. I get to pick what benefits I want... it's all about choice... and isn't that something the liberals are always shouting about?

Fundamentally, the basic problem is that insurance does not equal healthcare. Having for profit insurance companies involved in providing health care you will get only one thing: PROFIT.

Any health care cannot be tied to employers...if you leave a job, you can still get sick...why should your health be put at risk because you might not have a job. It may not have been so true years ago, but it limits mobility when your healthcare is tied to your job so it needs to be in a form that you are always afforded coverage, irregardless of your employment status.

Rangel is at it again.

http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=111_cong_bills&docid=f:h5741ih.txt.pdf

I wonder what Congress will do with this one.

@ YotaJosh: Europe people do pay 50% in taxes.

Here are some facts for you from the National Center for Policy Analysis, lets see if you can find something that proves otherwise:

http://www.ncpa.org/pub/ba649

Fact No. 1: Americans have better survival rates than Europeans for common cancers.[1] Breast cancer mortality is 52 percent higher in Germany than in the United States, and 88 percent higher in the United Kingdom. Prostate cancer mortality is 604 percent higher in the U.K. and 457 percent higher in Norway. The mortality rate for colorectal cancer among British men and women is about 40 percent higher.

Fact No. 2: Americans have lower cancer mortality rates than Canadians.[2] Breast cancer mortality is 9 percent higher, prostate cancer is 184 percent higher and colon cancer mortality among men is about 10 percent higher than in the United States.

Fact No. 3: Americans have better access to treatment for chronic diseases than patients in other developed countries.[3] Some 56 percent of Americans who could benefit are taking statins, which reduce cholesterol and protect against heart disease. By comparison, of those patients who could benefit from these drugs, only 36 percent of the Dutch, 29 percent of the Swiss, 26 percent of Germans, 23 percent of Britons and 17 percent of Italians receive them.

Fact No. 4: Americans have better access to preventive cancer screening than Canadians.[4] Take the proportion of the appropriate-age population groups who have received recommended tests for breast, cervical, prostate and colon cancer:

• Nine of 10 middle-aged American women (89 percent) have had a mammogram, compared to less than three-fourths of Canadians (72 percent).
• Nearly all American women (96 percent) have had a pap smear, compared to less than 90 percent of Canadians.
• More than half of American men (54 percent) have had a PSA test, compared to less than 1 in 6 Canadians (16 percent).
• Nearly one-third of Americans (30 percent) have had a colonoscopy, compared with less than 1 in 20 Canadians (5 percent).

Fact No. 5: Lower income Americans are in better health than comparable Canadians. Twice as many American seniors with below-median incomes self-report "excellent" health compared to Canadian seniors (11.7 percent versus 5.8 percent). Conversely, white Canadian young adults with below-median incomes are 20 percent more likely than lower income Americans to describe their health as "fair or poor."[5]

Fact No. 6: Americans spend less time waiting for care than patients in Canada and the U.K. Canadian and British patients wait about twice as long - sometimes more than a year - to see a specialist, to have elective surgery like hip replacements or to get radiation treatment for cancer.[6] All told, 827,429 people are waiting for some type of procedure in Canada.[7] In England, nearly 1.8 million people are waiting for a hospital admission or outpatient treatment.[8]

Fact No. 7: People in countries with more government control of health care are highly dissatisfied and believe reform is needed. More than 70 percent of German, Canadian, Australian, New Zealand and British adults say their health system needs either "fundamental change" or "complete rebuilding."[9]

Fact No. 8: Americans are more satisfied with the care they receive than Canadians. When asked about their own health care instead of the "health care system," more than half of Americans (51.3 percent) are very satisfied with their health care services, compared to only 41.5 percent of Canadians; a lower proportion of Americans are dissatisfied (6.8 percent) than Canadians (8.5 percent).[10]

Fact No. 9: Americans have much better access to important new technologies like medical imaging than patients in Canada or the U.K. Maligned as a waste by economists and policymakers naïve to actual medical practice, an overwhelming majority of leading American physicians identified computerized tomography (CT) and magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) as the most important medical innovations for improving patient care during the previous decade.[11] [See the table.] The United States has 34 CT scanners per million Americans, compared to 12 in Canada and eight in Britain. The United States has nearly 27 MRI machines per million compared to about 6 per million in Canada and Britain.[12]

Fact No. 10: Americans are responsible for the vast majority of all health care innovations.[13] The top five U.S. hospitals conduct more clinical trials than all the hospitals in any other single developed country.[14] Since the mid-1970s, the Nobel Prize in medicine or physiology has gone to American residents more often than recipients from all other countries combined.[15] In only five of the past 34 years did a scientist living in America not win or share in the prize. Most important recent medical innovations were developed in the United States.[16] [See the table.]

Conclusion. Despite serious challenges, such as escalating costs and the uninsured, the U.S. health care system compares favorably to those in other developed countries.

The issue is not that McDonalds is getting off the hook for this stupid law. The issue is that the government does not want McDonalds to comply with the law by eliminating the coverage. At least, not yet. In a couple years, they will be happy to take McDonalds' employees into an inferior public plan, and blame McDonalds as a corporate culprit, just not now, not with an election coming up, and people focusing on the idiocy of the legislation, not on the "greed" of McDonalds.

Our country is the leader in Research and Development. It is this way because of the free market we have in place. Yes it does suck we as a nation will pay for most of these cost. But when ranked against the rest of the world, we live longer and have more access to the services we need to address our health issues.

YotaJosh- you need to do your research about Tri-Care (Military Insurance) before you act like you know what it is....

akguy

Show me one thing the federal government has touched in the last twenty years that hasn't gone to complete schit? One thing. On thing only.

Their self approved pay raises still work.

I'm still amazed how many Democrats blame Republicans for this bill's contents. Just amazing. Either they had ideas that were put in it with the approval of 59-60 Democrats or not. Obama says they didn't so it's allllll Democrats. This is a prime example of the result of the best Democrats can come up with when left to their own vices and are fillibuster-proof.

Besides, it's just avoiding the topic of the story. Obama is handing out free passes to whomever his staff thinks is deserving. They just happen to be long enough to get passed the elections too. I thought he wanted single payer...

Brianb: All I can say is, selective reading much? Maybe you are one of the psychotic conservatives? Because all you have to do is read the whole post to know I come down on both conservative and liberal radicals. If your particular radical view is insulted, because I put down your favorite side in addition to your opposition, well, too bad. No apologies for that.

Health insurance companies are in business to earn money just as i go out to earn money at what i do and not lose money or earn enough and go out of business. simple.

Do any of you liberals have a clue how health care is run in this country? Obviously not. Those of you who want a single payor system need to go on medicaid and find out how many doctors won't accept it. Why do you think most go to the emergency room instead of the doctor? Are you going to mandate that the medical professional accept whatever payment the government decides to pay? Insurance companies rates are determined by each state based on their loss ratio and administrative costs. Part of those administrative costs are commissions paid to your insurance agent. That's the person who explains to you what is and isn't covered by your policy. Should you take the time to read your the policy and make an informed decision on your own you might be able to eliminate the agent. However most people will not do that. That would eliminate 5-15% of the administrative costs. Should limit what doctors should be paid? Do you think people enter the medical profession solely for altruistic reasons? The problem with most liberals is that they live in a dream world and not reality. Your solution to everything is having the government in control of everything. History and reality prove that the government is not efficient at running anything. Welcome to 1984.

Wow, nearly immediate dynamic adjustments based on the case to an overall great idea instead of entire careers being spent arguing! What next, a comprehensive first strike effort towards stemming climate change? Of course there will be those whom rather than do anything useful will instead criticize every move, every effort, or any progress.

Here is action proof that Obama is all show and zero substance. Clear proof the bill was not thought through and that even the democrats are now finding fault with the bill...

What a joke, an absolute joke!!!

The only answer is single-payer health care. Our current private insurance system clearly isn't working well enough, what with the growing cost of coverage, and also so many uninsured people seeking care at ERs only when they get so ill they can't ignore it any longer. Obama's reform sure isn't going to work if they keep granting exemptions, and now that they are doing exactly that, even more employers will ask for their own exemptions. Something has to give somewhere. I think private health insurance for basic care should be replaced with an expansion of mandatory Medicare coverage to include virtually everyone, and then basic insurance should be completely outlawed. That might make the insurance companies think that what they are being asked to do right now wasn't so dang bad, after all.

If insurance companies don't sell insurance, they can't make any money. I have no idea who it is that services McDonald's health care plan, but chances are they would seriously negotiate before losing that big a client. Selling McDonald's health insurance at a fraction of the previous level of profit is still better than not selling it at all.

Also, doctors would have little choice but to accept "Medicare" patients, if there were no other kind. A government-run, single-payer system would solve the bulk of the reform puzzles that we now face. Medicare itself is no different than a private plan other than the profit; they don't pay for everything, and you don't get to decide what it is they WILL pay for. Personally, I'd rather have someone who wasn't in it for the money decide what care I am covered for. The buying and negotiating power of a national, non-profit, single-payer plan would be unbelievable, and would keep costs down in a way that private insurance simply can't, or at least won't. It's the only long-term answer that exists. I realize it's not going to happen tomorrow, but I'm confident that's the way it will eventually go. There is no other realistic alternative.

Right now, the profit motive works directly against the health needs of most people. Such would not be the case under universal Medicare, or something similar.

It makes total sense that the government would issue waivers, that's nothing knew. The difference between Obama and previous presidents is that the waivers were ususally for the insurants companies to force the public to be insured by law and at the same time deny the people's right to usage of it. The post Rodney King riot was proof of that. When the people needed it, the companies stamped "denied" on their request forms.

Now there's waivers being issued , but for certain policies and exxemptions for the companies like McDonalds to keep their employees insured, OK, fine.

What's total bull @!$%# to me is the insurance companies dropping insurances for the sickly children (pre-existing or not) and blameing on the current administration. Talk about flashbacks to the 80s and 90s when Bush sr and Clinton were in charge, SH-H-I-I-T!

Cigna, Aetna, and the other one(cant remember) should be shut down and never allowed to be operational again.

Right now we've got a president that's establishing more ways for the companies to work for the people and if this is one of them then make it so. If the major companies are not making use of these policies then the companies are the crooks, not the @!$%#ing president. Wake up people. Get out of your bias viewpoints on whatever party or plitician and open your eyes. The companies are the crooks and they make money on this stuff that you're believing. Why, because in this day in age, "It's all about the coin, religion is the tool."

jack, it was aways back (post 1.100), but i have to disagree withh you on your "liberal point".

well your cons points were wrong too, tort reform and opening state-lines would bring down prices.

BUT, let me correct your point that stood out to me. i am deeply involved in hospital systems, btw. DOCTORS are not the"king profiteers", FAR from it. Esp relative to IN hospital Drs. CEOs, even Dirs often make more than Drs. Lawyers that go after Drs make way more than Drs that ARE SAVING LIFES!

BTW to all of those ripping into health care insurance companies and employers - sorry not their fault, its the bill's fault.

These companies have every right (last time I checked this was a free country - not a socialist country) to sell what they wanted too. And you have every right to buy from who you want to.

Along the same lines, the employers are doing what they can within the new law as well and its not pretty...but the magical Health Care Bill allows them to do this...hmmm the bill was not well thought through if you were banking on it to force these guys to conform?

No surprise to me...

So please focus on the topic of the bill and how its failing - Obama is simply hiding this fact by giving out free passes...each one further dooming his promises to America and our children's future.

Yoda says:

I would rather have a government run program that runs a little overbudget than be raped by insurance companies who have our country hostage for their obscene profits.

Of course you would rather have government run your healthcare because you think you won't feel the cost associated with it. That's a cannard. The government has NO idea of what healthcare will cost. They can't budget a lunch without cost overruns. Who pays Yoda? WHO the Fk PAYS? I pay! I pay for the governments lack of foresight. My children pays. You don't care. You think the government is the savior. Obviously a blind Obama supporter.

Why do liberals want the government to be in their lives so much? Why are they for BIG government and social programs? Why do liberals want government to control their lives? It doesn't make sense... what does make sense is liberals support liberals that want to control their lives... Remember Yoda... a government big enough to give you everything is also a government that can take everything away. I don't want to live my life that way... obviously you do.

Down with Obamacare and everyone that supported it. Go Tea Party Go. Hey you socialist govenment smucks it's almost November are you packing yet?

I have read many comments about Big Business Winning Again. Those comments should read Obama Backs down AGAIN. Big Business simply asked the government for a waiver and said what it would have to do if not given the waiver. OBAMA didn't have to cave in. Obama caved because he didn't want anymore criticism of himself or his programs. He should have stood his ground and made business do what they said they would do if not granted a waiver.

@ YotaJosh: You missed the point of the link, it was comparing countries that have government run healthcare against our healthcare system. Yes I have no problem with insurance companies making a profit, its called FREE MARKET SYSTEM.

Your life insurance companies make a profit, your car insurance companies make a profit, fire insurance does, boat insurance does, etc, etc, etc. FREE MARKET SYSTEM.

@ aquatone: Work in the health care system as I have for past 10 years.

Cost of healthcare is driven by Medicare reimbursement rates which have been going down year after year. Here are the steps.

When Medicare reimbursment rates go down, hospitals charge more. When hospitals charge more then they get more money back from Medicare plus they get to report more on their Cost Reports, these Cost Reports get sent into the state and federal government, then they get a little extra back. Medicare reimburses on a percentage level.

Now, since hospitals have raised their costs, since Medicare lowered how much they give back, private insurance companies get hit with the cost via co-insurance reimbursements and contract renewal. Inpatient claims most of the time get reimbursed per diem (per day they, the hospital will get $X amount of money for everyday the patient is in the system). Outpatient most of the time is paid via contract rates.

ER Visit $1000 bill, contract between provider and insurance state automatic 30% is taken off, that leaves $700 left, patient's contract with insurance company states they pay $100 copay plus 10% coinsurance. So $700 minus $100 copay leaves $600. Patient pays total of $160, insurance pays $440. Hospital takes a $300 loss. Now mind you, EVERY Medical, dental, doctor, provider has a different contract with each insurance company.

There are so many other scenarios with contracts, I didn't even include max life time benefits or yearly out of pocket expenses or deductible amounts.

This leaves you, the patient, to be able to choose which provider you want to go with to get the best rates verses the care.

The number one driver of the cost of healthcare is Government run Medicare, period, end of story.

The government has a proven track record of not being able to handle a budget and stay within the budget, IT DOESN'T MATTER WHICH PARTY, it happens. Government can not handle our retirement fund either.

i forget - whose pocket are big corporations in?

what party introduces legislation to protect big business at the expense of job-creators (ie, small and mid-size businesses)?

I guess some people just can't be bothered with personal responsibility.

What a miserable existence!

You must understand healthcare and private insurances before pointing the finger at the company making a profit in a FREE MARKET, just because the government and media makes them out to be the bad guy because their Medicare system is failing and about to run out of money.

Are you researching non bias information; or bias information, where the people that created that bogus info has a reason to make that company look like the bad guy to promote their own goals and agenda?

Are you a follower or a leader? If the government tells you to jump off a bridge, but tells you there will be a safety net below to catch you........

.......are you going to jump AFTER or BEFORE researching ( by looking down to make sure the net is there and finding out its an actually working safety net)?

Knowledge is power..................

Wow if this doesn't SCREAM fairness I don't know what does...... (sarcasm).

It's falling apart, this will be WAY too easy to repeal. Egg meet face.

The administration knows that if these companies dropped their healthcare right before the election that it would cost them an additional 25 congressional seats.

Having workerd in many aspects the insurance industry, including regulatory affairs, for over 25 years, I can assure you it is one of the most highly regulated industries in the country. State insurance departments, among many other functions, dictate rates and rules through insurance company filings. In order for rate filings to be considered by an insurance department, a carrier is obligated to justify propsed rates. Justification may be in the form of premium vs. loss experience and/or department approved, standardized actuarial formulation. In either case, a carrier is also obligated to prove their proposed rates are, "NOT EXCESSIVE, INADEQUATE, OR DISCRIMINATORY." Depending on the type of insurance invloved in the filing, we'll use health as an example, the filing and the department's review are available to the public to view and/or comment on for 30 days. Other than utilities, I am unable to think of another industry under such scrutiny.

The average profit (underwriting [premium vs. losses] + investment) of a health insurance company is 4%. 99% of that 4% is investment income. In a good year, a company spends (claims $ + expense $) $.99 of every $1.00 in premium. In a bad year, a company spends $1.05 for every $1.00 in premium. Further, insurance companies are required to submit annual statements to the insurance departments of the company's state of domicile. This information is readily available for EVERY insurance company via insurance departments' websites.

The statement made by the insurance commissioner referenced in this article is absurd and completely inaccurate. One of the functions of state insurance departments is to monitor the viability of all operating insurance companies. Where viabilty is a concern, there are many options available to regulators.

I challange anyone to dispute these these facts. The demonizing of insurance companies is completely unjustified.

Scott

Not thanks, I lived in Canada most of my life. I left about 3 years ago. And under their wonderful health care, I almost lost a leg. I had a simple plika in my knee. Couldnt walk. I was put on a waiting list for an MRI, which was suppose to be a three month wait. Well it turned out to be over a 9 months. Next I was placed on a list for 4 more months for the simple indoscope. Thats over a year that I was not able to run. Before the endoscope (God only knows when it would have been) I developed problems due to inflamation. It was so bad it started constricting my veins and arteries. My lower leg was basically wasteing away. Still, no urgency from the Canadian system. While in Texas, visiting my daughter, my leg started turning blue, so we rushed to the E.R.. and guess what, within three days I had an M.R.I. and surgery. I was back walking within a week. I do believe that if I would have waited for the procedure in Canada, I would have lost my leg from the knee down. Ive lived most of my life under the Canadian system, NO THANKYOU.

There you go people RSD2204 states it plain and in simple to read facts. Look at post 1.148 to see it from the hospitals and doctors point of view. Both sides have same point pretty much.

Again, the government is trying to use private insurance as a scap goat for their failing Medicare program.

Yotajosh,

You say in 1.121:

You don't know WTF you are talking about. Canada and England have better healthcare systems by LEAPS AND BOUNDS, and don't pay 50% of their income in taxes for it.

My late wife and I live in in France (1982-1988), England (1990-1992), and Canada (1993-1997). Our experience was that the health care system was NO WHERE NEAR what we have here in the US. While in England, my wife was diagnosed with Rheumatoid Arthritis. There was plenty of palliative care available but until we returned to the US in 1997, she did not get what she really needed. Maybe if you are young and have no maladies it is a great system for you, but not if there is something wrong.

In 1.128 you say:

I happen to think that the VA provides our soldiers with great quality care that WE ALL PAY FOR, and I also happen to think the US Postal Service does a fine job.

Have you ever partaken of a VA Facility or the Tri-Care insurance? I served with the 3rd Marine in Vietnam. I rue the day that I will have to use the VA for my primary care. They work almost as well as the post office or any other government organization. When I was in the Marines, we would describe operations that ran this well in two words ... the first one is "Cluster".

You believe that a big government is the solution to Everything that ails mankind. I believe that big government that IS the Ill that plagues mankind. While I was in the Marine Corps, I saw untold numbers of things that were over-designed, over-engineered, and overly expensive. The standing remark at that time was: "An Elephant is a Mouse built to Military (government) Specs!" Everything that the government does, builds, or administers is the same way. There is no reason to change because there is no accountability or responsibility in government. This is another case of the law of unintended consequences. In the effort to protect federal workers from the changes of the political winds, they made it nearly impossible to fire a non-performing employee. Now instead of firing a total screw-up or lazy bastard, they just move or promote this person out of the way. Screw-up and Move up, that's our motto. There is also no incentive to make improvements to the system. Everyone does just what they are told to do like good little lemmings because rocking the boat is not good for anyone in government service.

Big Government Entitlements, once established, become self serving entities that are impossible to control. Just look at Greece, Spain and Portugal to see what runaway entitlements can do. Back in 1990, Warren Buffett warned of the problem in Greece as well as in Spain and Portugal because the Christian Social Democrats (The party in power) were busy promising the Moon even tho they knew that they could only deliver Newark, NJ. Buffett called them the "Party of Unsustainable Promises."

In an obese person, fat becomes its own organ and secrets hormones to guarantee its further existence. I believe that Big Government is the same. Every time that another program is added or increased, the government size and cost gets bigger. Bigger government begets even bigger government because it is politically incorrect to shrink it. Government is non-efficient by its nature. It doesn't make decisions that for either technical or practical reasons, but rather political considerations; a decision based on what will get someone re-elected again in X or Y years.

You don't believe it? Just look at the 60 Minutes documentary on Medicare Fraud. This is the system that you want to put everyone on. The program was entitled : "Medicare Fraud: A $60 Billion Crime.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/10/23/60minutes/main5414390.shtml

The 60 minutes program claimed (and I'm fairly sure that they were on the low side) that as much as 30% of all Medicare / Medicaid billing is fraudulent. That comes up to about $60 Billion last year; I guess that your idea is to put everyone on the the Medicare / Medicaid system and let all of the bottom feeders really get fat; is that it? Or is it that you want to cede all of your responsibilities and culpability's to an all powerful, omnipotent government uber alles government and let THEM decide everything for you and when who gets what. Just give the Government everything and they will be wise enough to decide what you should get (or not get as the case may well be); is that the plan?

Sir Thomas More's Utopia didn't work to well for him. It's companion work written in the 1800's by Messrs Marx and Engles proved not to be that successful either. Do you want to give it another try, perhaps?

How do the folks that push for single payer plan to pay for it? Right now, an awful large percentage of people don't pay any taxes. Do we start charging them? If they can't afford a health care premium and taxes now, how do they pay for single payer? One post further up claimed we would all pay equally for each others' care, but that is simply not the case. The reality is that a few would end up paying most while a lot would end up paying little or nothing. We can't sustain any plan that puts the burden on just "the rich" and the middle class, or everyone will be poor. I like the idea of allowing the uninsured to buy into Medicaid, and allowing the market to handle the rest. The real truth is that nothing will work until the costs are addressed, and adding more government bureaucrats is not ever going to reduce costs.

Waivers? Are they freaking kidding? I want a waiver from being required to buy health insurance and I want the feds to pick up my tab too.

WHAT A CROCK. I am certainly sharing this article with the states that are suing.

This IS discrimination. This WILL help declare this law unconstitutional.

WHAT A JOKE. I am tired of Obama and his stupid ideas.

My immediate family are the only Americans in my family tree.

The rest of them are Swedish or Canadian.

My Canadian aunt was in Mexico for a procedure the Canadians will not perform She is instantly feeling better.

My former Canadian employee's mother had to wait too long in Canada to begin radiation for cancer so she ended up in a hospital in Buffalo, New York.

My Swedish relatives are better off but Sweden is great at many things.

I hear Burn's story and thank goodness I live here.

I always have jobs that give health insurance as a benefit.

That's it, Obama might just be the worst president ever for business, and is turning into the worst president for the general welfare of the people.

This legislation was horrible from the word GO. The majority of Americans were more concerned about their jobs, but the Democrats in the White house and in Congress were more concerned with their agenda. Most Americans didn't want this Healthcare Law, but now they are forced to deal with it.

Way to let major corporations like McDonalds off the hook from your new "LAW" Mr. President - I hope you were able to help Bill Gates and Warren Buffett during their time of need as well.

It is time to neuter this puppy in November. He might become an OK president if he is forced to work with people who do not obey his every word. It is called Checks and Balances - and we need it now more than ever!

jt in sd - "Insurance is exactly that. You pay for it when you don't need it so that it is there for you when you do. Hopefully, you never do. Try calling an insurance company saying "I just crashed my car and I'd like to get a policy that will pay for it."

No, no, no - There are no pre existing conditions denials anymore.

So you would be able to crash your car, then purchase the insurance, and then the insurance company would have to pay to fix the car that you wrecked before you got the insurance.

Surely that would work great for everyone. We wouldn't have to pay for insurance until we need it. And no one would be denied coverage just because they caused a few hundred thousand dollars in damage, and need someone else to pay it.

So why can't we extend the no prexisting conditions rule to auto and home insurance?

Jack TX : You state that most health insurance companies deal nationally... that's rather incorrect. Currently, I think there are only six insurance companies that deal with health insurance nationally: Anthem Blue Cross Blue Shield, Humana One, Coventry, United Health One, Cigna, and Aetna. And even of these six, a lot of them only provide a some types of coverages in states.

I do think competition would help in driving down insurance costs. Will it be the cure-all solution to the rising costs? Hell no, and anybody who says otherwise is dillusional.

Anybody with insurance who visits the hospital and sees the subsequent breakdown of what they would have paid without insurance, versus what the insurance makes the hospitals and doctors take by contract realizes just how ridiculous health care costs have gotten. My last stint in the hospital had me paying out of pocket around 1,500 USD for the year, but where the hospital would have billed me 2,000 USD for one thing the insurance company was making them accept 1,200 USD. It's sad that the insurance companies became the target politicians wanted to blame and now the 70% of the nation with insurance will get to suffer for it.

If Congress had targeted the factors that drive the cost of health care then everybody would have won, the government, the people with insurnace, the people without insurance... everybody. And that is the perhaps the saddest part of this entire mess... that we would rather attack the tail of the snake rather than its head.

And that is my problem with your breakdown... while your two points about the conservatives are not 'total' solutions, they are however steps towards attacking the costs surrounding health care. I see those as being leaps and bounds better than attempting to remake the wheel and creating a whole new flurry of issues ontop of the existing (which is what we got). Additional cost reducing solutions ought to be welcomed, don't you think?

No, no, no - There are no pre existing conditions denials anymore.

I don't know if you were being sarcastic but this only applies to children.

RatPoison - you are correct that there are no national insurance policies. There are national companies that provide policies within the states because each state has the authority to regulate insurance, not the feds.

All I know is that a law should not be passed when you immediately have to give waivers. There was NO point then.

Jack TX : You state that most health insurance companies deal nationally... that's rather incorrect. Currently, I think there are only six insurance companies that deal with health insurance nationally: Anthem Blue Cross Blue Shield, Humana One, Coventry, United Health One, Cigna, and Aetna. And even of these six, a lot of them only provide a some types of coverages in states.

I consult for insurance companies as part of my work. Yes, you get the idea, although I think you're just now beginning to understand how bad it is.

There are only a handful of companies left in the health insurance business at all. For clarification, I count all the BCBS licensees as one carrier, simply because they operate as a confederation of sorts. I do not believe Coventry is actually available everywhere, and you left Assurant off of your list, but you get the general point.

I do think competition would help in driving down insurance costs

It might, but state lines are not a barrier to competition. Capital is the primary barrier to entry and thus is the barrier to competition.

If you take a look at the pricing models of any carrier, there is a location factor built into their rates. Here in Texas, for instance, it is more expensive to buy health coverage in Harris County (Houston) than it is Smith County (Tyler), because the network fee agreements are higher in Houston. Now notice that such a difference exists even within one state. The idea that somehow if BCBS Oklahoma was allowed to sell health insurance in Texas the increased competition would help drive prices down just doesn't work. BCBSOK IS selling it here. Their parent company is the same.

We look at other insurance lines like auto or life and conclude that since those companies can sell nationally they have created a more competitive marketplace. Well, those companies are subject to the same registration and licensing rules as health carriers. They are not selling nationally, they just make it look that way. They have created a competitive marketplace because the profit margin on those lines is 5x what it is in health insurance, so every insurance company wants a piece of that pie. This will make a liberal's head explode, but PROFIT creates competition.

If Congress had targeted the factors that drive the cost of health care then everybody would have won, the government, the people with insurnace, the people without insurance... everybody. And that is the perhaps the saddest part of this entire mess... that we would rather attack the tail of the snake rather than its head.

Yes. Yes. Yes............................did I mention yes?

And that is my problem with your breakdown... while your two points about the conservatives are not 'total' solutions, they are however steps towards attacking the costs surrounding health care.

See, I look at them as complete timewasters, attacking the tail of that snake again

Additional cost reducing solutions ought to be welcomed, don't you think?

Obviously, but the industry itself has pretty conclusive evidence that neither of these ideas will reduce costs at all.

American for Israel

Fascinating stats. They seem curiously at odds, though, with the analysis done last year that ranked our healthcare system next to last or dead last among several other developed nations in terms of quality of care, efficiency, access to care, equity and the ability of our citizens to lead long, healthy, productive lives.

This, despite a per capita amount spent on healthcare in this country that is almost double what is spent in Canada. The Netherlands, not the United States, earned the top rating, even though its per capita healthcare expenditure hovers right around Canada's.

http://www.businessweek.com/lifestyle/content/healthday/640404.html

The WHO's assessment is even worse. We ranked 37th among the 40 nations they assessed. Only Slovenia, Cuba and Brunei got worse ratings than we did.

Among your factoids I noticed you're missing an important one: how about a comparison between Europe or Canada, and this country, as to the number of citizens that have been forced into bankruptcy due to their inability to pay stratospheric medical bills incurred through serious illness?

It would also be interesting to see what impact the destruction of their financial soundness might have had on the subsequent health of these unfortunates, especially knowing that there's no real safety net in place for them in this country.

RSD2204 says: "The average profit (underwriting [premium vs. losses] + investment) of a health insurance company is 4%."

Assuming your numbers are correct, that's 4% too much when we're talking the health of our nation, especially for a company who isn't really doing ANYTHING. They aren't making people healthy; they are simply taking their money. If the cost of health care was minimal, it wouldn't much matter, but then we wouldn't be discussing any aspect of health care reform in the first place. But 4% pure profit on an outrageously inflated price structure should be considered almost criminal. We can and should do better. I don't personally believe health insurance companies are the root of all evil, but I don't think they are doing anyone any good, either. They may not be the entire problem, but they are certainly a significant part of it.

Jack TX : I've understood how bad it was a long time ago. But knowing that it is bad doesn't stop me from being able to combat and overcome it. Being responsible for myself is a mindset, so I've constantly been focused on obtaining an income to afford the lifestyle I like best - that's all there is to it - and as the rates increase, my diligence regarding my work and ability increases to compensate.

I agree that if you have a profitable marketplace, that the number of competitors or people attempting to partake in that market should be greater than if it is a barely profitable market. But even that is not an absolute as certain factors can play heavily each company's equation for success: utilization of different technology that reduces cost, variances in business strategy and pay of individuals (out-sourcing), creativity, etc. Companies that become docile tend to die off as new comers re-invent the wheel and change the business. Unfortunately, this bill doesn't foster new ideas as much as it further drives us into a set path.

I have no debate to the cost of health insurance being different by region by consequence of the varied cost of living in say... New York City versus Jamestown, North Dakota. The idea of national competition is to intice sellers of insurance to re-invent the wheel and their business strategy because with a greater volume, you have the ability to tighten down and streamline activities. For example, (I am a contractor) if a customer asks for a cost to remove 5000 sqft of floor covering and that's all... he'll end up paying around .40 cents per sqft, however if a client asks for me to remove 100,000 sqft, they'll end up paying around .20 cents a sqft. And I think this trend would have remained true before this bill was passed. The bill of course forces new rules, companies to have to redo their business strategies (which will cost more till somebody figures out something that works which may never happen), and again the rules on many things have been rigidly defined that it'll be difficult for creative strategies to be made.

So... health insurance companies will close their doors and we'll end up with a monopoly or the government will simply take over it all and the people will lose on what is one of the best countries in the world for surviving ailments.

As for attacking the snakes tail... tort reform was discussed during the health care debate and it was stated then that it wouldn't significantly decrease health care costs - however, in contrast to what the Democrats were doing, this was the right direction to be looking in. And that's more or less my point, that competition and tort reform aren't cure-alls but they are places where we can begin wittling.

especially for a company who isn't really doing ANYTHING.

This is a difficult concept for many people to understand, but assuming risk is doing something. Many people get caught up the moral idea of "the health of our nation" and forget that doctors don't work for free and chemotherapy is expensive. Many of these same people advocate a single payer system, which begs the question...would the government then be doing "nothing"? Of course not.

We could make the same argument about homeowners' insurance. Let's assume you have State Farm, what are they actually "doing"? They didn't build your house, they don't maintain your house, mow your lawn, wash your windows or do the dishes. They take your money year after year and yet in most of those years (unlike health insurance) they don't pay any claims on your house at all....while raking in profits that make health insurance company execs embarrassed to go to the country club.

Why not get rid of them entirely, and replace them with a government plan that replaces houses if they burn down? Every person has the right to shelter, and as long as State Farm is around this important right at risk to profits over people.

But 4% pure profit on an outrageously inflated price structure should be considered almost criminal. We can and should do better.

Yes, we can do better. Why don't we start with the price structure. BTW, where do US doctors rank in pay compared to their counterparts in other developed countries?

sherri2012 : There are problems with statistics period in that they can be interpreted many different ways. A simplification between what was used as a Democrat talking point and Israel's stats: if you want to survive a life threatening ailment like cancer, your best odds are seeking care in the United States.

Having the stats Israel listed comes at a cost... a lot of which is derived from the fact that we are on the cutting edge of medical development. These costs are consequently passed down the line to the patients.

In addition, while the United States has the highest percentage of cancer survivors you can deduce that this is attributed to access to doctors and treatments in a timely manner as cancer becomes more and more deadly with time.

Anyway, so the question is... how much money is your life worth? is it worth everything you have to survive a serious fight with cancer?, can you really put a price tag to it? Let's talk about a loved one... is it worth it for them? The WHOs ranking of our country is correct by the statistics they picked, but the truth is still the truth - this is where people from all over the world come to seek medical treatment.

They do indeed, if they have the bucks to be able to do it.

Meanwhile, some 23 million Americans (according to the article I cited) go without health coverage.

Other countries who outrank us in quality of healthcare for their citizens overall manage to insurance EVERYBODY, while spending less than half per capita than we do on healthcare.

That to me says something about the morality of our system.

Other countries who outrank us in quality of healthcare for their citizens overall manage to insurance EVERYBODY, while spending less than half per capita than we do on healthcare.

What do doctors earn in those countries? How does that compare to what US docs earn?

You can spin statistics and make excuses all day long.

One thing you can't deny is that we have the best healthcare the world.

And the surest way to screw that up, would be to put the government in charge of it.

The demand for doctors, the cost of educating them, training them, insuring them, and then the quality of their work is what drives their labor costs here - of course everything is also relative to location. The doctors that make the most money are the specialists though... general practice doctors usually aren't the "rich" doctors people tend to imagine, and because of this trend - you will find that medical schools are actually producing fewer general practice doctors than specialists. My cousin graduated from medical school and from his class there was maybe 5% of the group that was going into general practice (more than likely less). As it compares... because the market has supported their pay... their pay is where it is though you find that their are terrible doctors out there that the market doesn't exactly punish because the demand for doctors period stays high. I have a feeling this was a rhetorical question on your part Jack as you already knew the answer.

sherri2012 : And while you state that it's only if you have the bucks... our cancer survival rate is still better than these "universal" places. People without money still receive treatment and despite all the odds there are institutions and universities constantly engaged in research and development that take on impoverished patients all the time, try checking out Duke and John Hopkins.

I'll put this to you as well sherri - and I recognize that it's a harsh sentiment, but most of us come into this world with a variety of tools and talents at our disposal... some of us will let them languish and pass up on things for various reasons, others will do the opposite - why should a person expect to be taken care of? Why should one person who has made it their goal in life to provide for themselves and family suddenly be taxed to provide for people who chose poorly or not at all? It seems to me that we are all aware that bad things can occur to ourselves and loved ones on any given day - so it is best to be as prepared as possible and to have our eyes forward rather than haphazardly assuming it'll be okay otherwise.

The government is not here to "take care of you"... it is here to protect our liberty's so that we can forge whatever life we wish for ourselves at whatever consequence it is to ourselves. People who blame others for their misfortune, and can't ever seem to take responsibility tend to be the people who push for the "government" (which is no more trust worthy than a stranger) to take care of them and protect them. That is why our founding fathers constantly spoke of a diligence and awareness of the people to constantly question and challenge the government, to not surrender their libertys to it... it is a part of a pioneering, do it yourself or else mentality that forged this country out of a sense that we could all pursue a dream of our chosing.

One thing you can't deny is that we have the best healthcare the world.

Depends how you define best. I define it (as I suspect you do) as access to the best physicians, equipment, facilities and medicines that money can buy. The point can be made that many many Americans are excluded from those thing due to their financial situation.

The demand for doctors, the cost of educating them, training them, insuring them, and then the quality of their work is what drives their labor costs here - of course everything is also relative to location.

Of course. But physician compensation generally the quickest and easiest way to answer the juvenile statements like

Other countries who outrank us in quality of healthcare for their citizens overall manage to insurance EVERYBODY, while spending less than half per capita than we do on healthcare

At the end of the day, physician profits amount to about 7.5% of total healthcare expenditure in the US. They make 50% more than their counterparts in the next closest country. Are they worth it? In my opinion, yes.

Bur raising statements like that one with the implication that other countries are doing something right and we're not is disingenuous. When US docs make what French docs make, we'll have healthcare like they do.

That is something I haven't looked into... amongst other things. A couple of people who are either moderate or even conservative have noted successes and strength in France's healthcare system - and here you have made a reference to it.

Since you've indicated that you are involved in the health care/insurance business, what do you know about France's system in comparison to ours, and your opinion regarding it, generally speaking?

Currently I am only aware that it is set up to cover everybody but is not managed by the government but by private firms still. So if that is true, then my concern about this system is whether or not it's like a utility company, where the government plays a role in regulating rate increases, but the service is handled by the provider and if it is like this, what prevents it from being a trumped up faked budget based like we have in many other similar things in this country. For example, if the a department finds that it has money unused from its budget it spends it needlessly out of fear of that their budget would be reduced.

I think the French system works very well for them. I would say the same of the German system. I'm not sure how well they would translate here, but I think it's probably worth some study.

It's not a simple conclusion to draw. In hard dollars they spend less per patient than we do, but their docs are paid much less and their citizens have much healthier lifestyles. In scalable terms, about 20% of their income goes to social security and healthcare taxes, compared with about 9.5% in the US. If we're willing to double our taxes, then we can probably have whatever we want.

RatPoison

I'm glad you raised the point about the high cost of educating and training doctors in this country. That, of course, is part of what contributes to the high cost of healthcare here and it is a problem.

As to whether or not we should all be required to pitch in to take care of less fortunate people, I don't see that issue in the same terms you do. I think it's a moral imperative that we do.

I'm not a Christian, but I understand the morality of the Golden Rule and I like it a lot better than your way.

As to whether or not we should all be required to pitch in to take care of less fortunate people, I don't see that issue in the same terms you do. I think it's a moral imperative that we do.

I'm not sure we disagree on that. Matter of fact if that's all they were looking for then Pelosi et al could have had their law a year earlier. Universal coverage is not that hard to do and most people like the idea. The pivotal question is how do we get it done.

I think that's where we got a really, really bad law when we could have had a pretty good one. We're going to look up 10 years from now and wonder why we still have 10% of the American public uninsured and how $1 trillion turned into $5 trillion.

What decent Doctor is going to want to practice medicine with a Government appointed bean counter as his boss?

sherri2012 : I am a subscriber to the Golden Rule sherri... "do unto others as you would have done unto you." I don't expect strangers to bend over backwards to help me; to me, that feels a whole lot like setting yourself up for failure and let downs. I do my best to go on my own steam relying on the support of people who know and are connected with me should I ever need any (family/friends). The Golden Rule is a great thing to teach people, but it is subject to personal interpretation - in your case you expect to be helped by strangers because you help strangers and that's fine... but I want to add one more aspect to this. Charity is something done by choice and without the expectation of a return of value... I would consider helping a stranger to be charity from the simple point that they are a stranger and perhaps isn't a subscriber to the Golden Rule.

Yesterday evening I was informed that if I had plans to sell my home that I need to do it before 2013. Apparently in the Health (Insurance) bill there is a 3.8% tax that will be applied in 2013 to all realty sales to help pay for the bill. Needless to say... I'm jumping for joy (sarcasm), but this little tidbit has not made it into news stories or reports so far and I was caught a bit off guard. If I were to sell my home for what it's worth... the government is going to tax the sale for $8,892. That's quite a bit of change that I'll lose altering what I thought I would purchase for a dwelling (that's not to mention that this would further stiffle home sales and the realty market).

I mention this to point out just how unfair and punishing this law is to people who are not only "rich", but to also the people who are in the middle class, like me sherri2012. I think being charitable is a great thing... but people should decide for themselves when to be and not be... not the government. I would love for everybody to have a problem free life... but that's not the reality of this world. Life is hard for most of us... we struggle against so many different things and for those of us who have had any measure of success - this bill is just one more item for us to be burdened with. To me... the people who need to be told about the Golden Rule are the ones who are being allowed to shrug off being responsible for themselves.

RatP

We are not in total disagreement about charity. I agree that everyone should be held accountable to take personal responsibility for themselves.

To that end, I think our welfare system could and should be reformed to require all able-bodied (and mentally capable) recipients to enroll in and complete education/training programs that will culminate in that recipient becoming qualified for a career that will pay them a decent wage. Along the way, the government should provide child care for the recipient (because no one on welfare can afford to pay for child care), transportation, and whatever else is needed to accomplish that goal. Once educated, trained and job-qualified, that would be another person dropped off the welfare rolls.

So I think the problem is solvable, which makes me questionr why the government doesn't solve it. I suspect that it has reasons of its own for maintaining a perpetual poverty class.

Where we don't agree is over the issue of whether we should be "forced" to give "charity," in the form of taxes to assist the needy. If left to people to give of their own initiative, I think we'd fall far, far short of meeting the need. (I'm afraid I don't have a lot of faith in the "goodness" of human nature.)

The tax on your home that you describe is surprising...first I've heard of it. I can't say that I am shocked, though. If true, it's another step backwards for middle-class people (who tend to be homeowners). I'm sure you are aware that the collective wealth of the middle class has been being drained away for some time now.

While people debate the propriety of taking from the rich to give to the poor, I would submit that we actually have a different process going on: Progressively, our system is taking from the middle class to give to the rich. That is why the widening income gap between the wealthiest and the rest of us has become a chasm, and shows no signs of abating. The poor make a good scapegoat, but they are not the real culprits here.

We are heading toward a second Gilded Age, a peasant economy. We are crowning new kings, with a big assist from our Supreme Court, onlyt nowadays they're called corporations.

If we do not change course, it looks to me like the days ahead will be cruel to many, many people. And most people are only a job away from being among those ranks.

The biggest issue I have with all that is that you've laced your statements with Democrat talking points. My favorite was about the Supreme Court and corporations - you are referencing the descision to allow corporations to donate to campaigns without limit. What you have failed to check into is the big picture behind donations. This became a Democrat talking point because corporations do tend to give more to the GOP... however, corporations also give to Democrat candidates as well. You need look no further than the 2008 election regarding Obama's donations. A practical way to think about their donation practices is that it is an investment/gamble... in that they would like to donate to a candidate that would have their interests in mind, but they tend to not donate to candidates that have little to no chance at winning.

Something else about donations... when you look at the total amount between both parties you will find that Democrats tend to have the advantage. This advantage is actually coming from Unions and various organizations. Unions give solely to Democrats - it is a rare occassion that they would make a significant contribution to any GOP candidate. This alone should point out something disturbing to you.

So... while on the surface the Supreme Court's descision seems to be a step backwards, and gives an unfair advantage to the GOP, and inspires corruption... it actually (at its root) balances the playing field between corporations and unions more so than between parties by today's current trends.

Onto your solution for welfare... I look at things a little differently. I think that there is a benefit to helping provide a safety net to people who have an unfortunate falling out. The primary problem I have describing my thoughts is that it is more of a situation based solution (which I know doesn't work), so I agree that anybody who decides to fall back on welfare should be required to do a few things... receive vocational training predicated on attending and receiving passing marks to continue receiving welfare, and to pass drug screens - I would also add that if a person on welfare decides to get pregnant while on welfare that they will be disqualified from additional welfare should they get pregnant a second time during that time period or any future use of welfare. As for the "child care" and such... no thanks... a person on welfare tends to be a person not working a full time job or has over extended themselves financially through various ways. Part of having a kid is taking care of the kid... again personal responsibility. Should the parent find themselves unable to care for the kid then they should put it up for adoption. If you pamper them with more benefits, then it encourages further abuse... like what we have today.

Onto human nature and charity... lets talk about Haiti... this country was in full blown recession during their earthquake and aftermath, yet somehow the people of the nation scraped together and donated more money than any other country. We are perhaps the most charitable nation in the world and this fact is reflected in this country's people. People of this country donate food, donate blood, donate cloths, donate cars... we donate an awful lot willingly already - so forcing those who have had success to donate by way of taxation through the government is an insult to those who are already charitable. In addition, when taxes are collected... portions of that money go to pay government employees from the various departments and agencies that are involved - in other words there are a lot of hands dipping into the vault. I don't feel that this alone is enough justification to shoot it down... however I'll also put forth that when the government takes the money... they put towards whatever they want, not to what the person wants.

A recent example for you... estates get taxed (again) when the estate owner(s) die... the tax is rather steep. In the news earlier this year, Warren Buffet and several other billionaires announced that they would be giving away half their accumulated wealth or more (when varied from billionaire to billionaire). People applauded these gentlemen and I laughed... this money would have been taken by the government anyway... but these men have decided to cut down what the government will take by arranging it to go to places of their choosing. They have actually hurt the "big" government effort in play these days with this move... so I found it funny when liberals were hailing it as a victory. Though it is a good thing... people should be allowed to choose when and who they want to be charitable to.

And back to personal responsibility. Maybe I'm a cold hearted cynic who is tired of watching others be preyed upon... maybe I'm tired of being preyed upon too... but if you believe that people should be responsible for themselves, then you can't start adding caveats out of sympathy. Most of us come into this country with many opportunities laid before us to achieve our goals... a portion of us will make bad choices, and mistakes - others will make better choices and succeed. The bottom line is that if you reward the people who make bad choices then the incentive to do well is gone... if you reward these people by taking from those who have done correctly then what you have is a dumbing and averaging of the population. For example, no child left behind act - it was suppose to make us more diligent about educating kids but instead we lowered our standards teaching for the bottom 25% of a class rather than to the middle or upper. It's harsh, but that is life... another reference point for you... Jamestown, America's first successful colony... the rule of the settlement was that if you wanted to eat, you worked... you did your share. It wasn't well... "we'll feed everybody even if you don't work." It was a pioneering spirit that forged this country... by hard work and motivation, and that mentality has been lost - another example, 10 years ago a survey was taken of college hopefuls and students, when asked their reason for going to college... they concluded that the majority of students believed that graduating would guarantee a higher standard of living. This doesn't sound like a bad statement, but the word choice they used was "guarantee" and they eventually paralleled this mentality to what I will call a type of entitlement, "I went to college, thus I deserve greater pay". But in reality, before the recession and now... it's not the college education people care about, its the experience of the individual.

Let's also talk a little bit further about taxes. It is a known fact that increasing taxes during a recession or depression will further the downturn in the economy. So even if we can't agree on making people responsible for themselves, or that the government is not an all-knowing all-caring super being... then we should be able to agree that the health insurance bill will not assist our economy in any way or form. We should also be able to agree that the projections of the cost of this bill were grossly underestimated... manufactured on an economy that doesn't exist, and cooked up through only partial estimates for portions of the bill still not yet understood (that piece of news came out about 3 or 4 months ago from the CBO - they didn't estimate amounts for departments and agencies not fully defined in the bill).

It seems that I've written a novella of sorts.

It IS a novella, LOL! I wish I had time to address it all, but I'm limited in the time I have that I can spend on the Internet.

Suffice to say I do hew more to the Democratic party line than to the Republican line, although I don't have much more faith in the Democratic party's ability to solve the nation's problems than I do in the Republican party's ability (which is zero).

I do agree that the healthcare legislation as passed is not going to solve the problems of healthcare in this country and might end up to be a disaster of sorts. Probably no more of a disaster than the previous healthcare situation, sans reform, was facing, though. And no, it's not likely to help the economy, which needs far, far bigger fixes than healthcare reform.

As to campaign contributions, I believe that far more often than not, money buys elections. I don't believe that the electorate at large bases their voting decisions on any sort of careful analysis/dissection of the issues at hand, and in fact I question whether the majority even have any actual ability to do this. (Partially, we can thank the dumbing-down of America for this.) From what I have read, union contributions are being far outpaced by corporate and special interest money. Simply, I think that in most cases, whoever gets the largest exposure...the most "airtime"...will win the vote. It matters little which party corporations tend to finance with campaign contributions, since both parties have become the friend of corporations and special interests...and those agendas do not tend to line up with that what is in the best interests of average Americans.

Re welfare, I'll just say that if we want people to become self-sufficient and to remain that way, then if they are in a hole they must first be pulled out. So I'm willing to help pay for removing whatever obstacles might stand in their way to self-sufficiency, including the cost of childcare while they become educated/trained...because this will be a one-time investment, as opposed to an investment towards maintaining people on lifelong welfare, a system which leads to multi-generational welfare.

Also, I'd love to see people who shouldn't be having children not have them, such as those who can't afford them, and also those who would make lousy parents. But more often than not, children are not planned...they just happen. I wouldn't mind putting in place financial incentives for people not to have children...God knows that overpopulation and the exponential nature of reproduction is a very serious problem...but I wouldn't punish people on welfare for having children, as long as the welfare they are receiving is a temporary assist, as I envision welfare should be. When the assist is over, it's over, so there is no real incentive under a welfare system like that for people to mass-produce babies.

Were the projections of the cost of the healthcare bill off-base? Probably, but time will tell. I think whatever excess costs are entailed, they will pale into insignificance compared to the vast amount of our national treasure which has been frittered away into endeavors that have arguably gained us nothing, such as our never-ending wars, which our previous President found necessary to conceal from the public by not including that cost in the budget.

As to our economy, I don't think it's possible for our country to finance itself responsibly and to produce a healthy economy as long as we insist on continuing to dump so much money, year after year after year, into war and the required military expenditures required to support that warring. In point of fact, I don't believe any other country would be capable of doing so either.

It is no surprise to me that we are where we are economically, and I don't yet see anything on the horizon to suggest that we can realistically expect to see things improve much. But again, time will tell.

And now I really am out of time, but I appreciate your comments, which show substance and serious thinking, and I've enjoyed the discussion.

ROY WILSON-336103

Here are the total contributions by the 20 largest contributors over the last 20 years;

Democrats = $476,593,000 (79%)

Republicans = $128,068,000 (21%)

So the Democrats have enjoyed a contribution advantage of about $349,000,000.

The vast majority of that advantage comes from Unions and Trial Lawyers, where the Democratic advantage is even more pronounced;

Democrats = $358,089,000 (94%)

Republicans = $20,611,000 (6%)

If you expand the list to the top 115 contributors, the Democrat's HUGE advantage increases even more..

Corporations actually give nearly the same amount to Democrats that they do to Republicans. It's the union contributions that are so lopsided in favor of the Democrats.

The Democrats don't want to lose any of their HUGE contribution advantage, so they want restrictions on businesses, but not on unions.

This is the dirty little truth that they don't want you to see, and the REAL reason for their proposed changes.

The source to verify this information is available at;

http://www.opensecrets.org/orgs/list.php

PS – It's interesting that Goldman Sachs, the big Wall Street trader was #5 in contributions, with about $33 Million, and they gave almost 2/3 of it to the Democrats.

I pulled this from another vine... but this gentleman has posted this in most of the vines regarding campaign donations, and nobody has been able to throw out the statistics. It's a fairly decent "big picture" snapshot.

As for helping the fallen people out... if it's a one time expense... nonsubsequent re-investments in perpetual failures, then fine. I believe in redemption and second chances... I'm just not prone to allowing people to walk over me time and time and time again.

I don't like social security... the government has no business in people's retirements. If they are afraid of the security of our seniors, then they should promote changes to the market place through incentives and benefits to businesses that deal with seniors. The problem has become so political these days due to the growing amount of people drawing (the Boomer population).

To me... the government has only a few roles. To protect the liberty's of people so that we may pursue our dreams however we choose (without infringing on another person's ability to do the same, and of course people being responsible for themselves). The government has no other major role to perform beyond that... but it is a broad role. The founding father's never intended the United States to have a standing army - that is why they included the 2nd Amendment originally, but they also believed that people needed to maintain power of the government, not the government over people - so there is some unfortunate meaning and relevance to the amendment even today.

Our economy has been economicly doomed because of a giant inequity between this nation and the other nations plugged into the world economy the United States is at a disadvantage. We have the most expensive labor, highest taxes, and the most regulation in comparison to any other industrialized nation. These three factors drive the cost to produce things - and when you compete against nations like China... there just is no way to win.

I had an interesting discussion a few weeks ago... you should read the comment above mine as we discussed economic issues: http://politics.newsvine.com/_news/2010/09/29/5200514-in-a-happy-place-obama-fights-a-new-battle?commentId=17984025#c17984025

As for the health care bill. I won't accept any excuse for why they passed it. I know our health care is the best in the world - it's expensive, but the best usually is. Instead of targeting costs... which was everybody's concern... they took it as a social agenda and took an antibusiness stance against insurance companies, and completely ignored the problem. You want to give them the benefit of the doubt and see if it'll get better, but history shows us just what happens when the government puts its foot into the middle of a situation. I've never heard anybody say how great our government is at doing anything - but I've heard plenty of people state and joke about the inept, ineffecient, over budget, wasteful nature of it.

@ sherri2012: I choose my information from non-bias sources.

EVERYTHING will always be more expensive in America, not just insurance.

Go do research and you will see almost ALL 'research and development' on medical drugs, surgeries, etc is done here in the states. Thats why we Americans pay for everything. Again, read my posts up above earlier on Friday. NUMBER ONE driver of health care is MEDICARE. I work in the medical billing office for past 10 years, I do know what I'm talking about.

We transplant faces now for crying out loud. St Judy takes care of kids for free due to the charity of Americans.

Duncancl,

You are talking nonsense. You have not given one example of why the HC bill is extremely bad. All you have done is outlined the BS talking points of conservatives and repugs. It's too bad that Obama admin is falling for thiese threats from McDonalds, large corporations and large insurance companies. These companies are making billions in profits and are complaining about giving "fair" health coverage insurance to their employees. They are concerned about only one thing - profits, bonuses for their execs, and their stock price.

Just heard that Wall Street payout (salaries and bonuses) this year will be 144B$ - that's just obscene.

Just heard that Wall Street payout (salaries and bonuses) this year will be 144B$ - that's just obscene.

How many people does that pay?

The boss banker.

I'll bet both of you are insured, right?

lonewarder .. they probably are insured. So what? That's the point. All that was needed was a federal plan that would set up a high-risk plan or back privately underwritten high-risk plans, and match premiums. If the premium worked out to a $1,000 month, you pay $500 and the gov't pays $500. There's no need to screw up 95% of American's health plans and choices to take care of 5%.

Oh, you're high risk and certain to cost someone a 1.5 million dollars lifetime, and think you should now get coverage for $300 month??? Good luck with that. Let me know how that works out for the nation, as a whole.

I agree. This is going to be worse than the tax code. What started a simple thing became so mired in confusion you need accountants to read the complex code. This healthcare bill, after years and years of tweaking and adding and subtracting of amendments and rules, you will need lawyers to help obtain something as simple as health insurance. Get the Republicans in there and start the repeal process immediately.

yes i am insured...b/bs anthem...have been for many years...worked my ass off to get there too...worried tho

$300 per month for 75 years is only $270,000 in payments for $1.5 million in coverage. If the full premium was invested at 7%, it could grow to $9.6 Million.

Problem is that 75% minimum goes to paying curent medical expenses for others. If they put that 25% in the bank they still could reach 2.4 Million, but they pay their people and advertising which is 9 - 14% of the premiums. Let's say they are efficient and pay only 9% of premiums for expenses leaving 16% to build to cover the promised liability. The money would still grow to about 1.5 million. - they make a profit of $300,000 over 75 years or $4,000+ per year.

But the average admin costs is actually 13.5%. leaving 11.5% or $34 to invest generating $1.1 Million That will leave them in deficit by $200,000 per policy.

Now the fed makes them use 85% for medical payments an 15% for profit and all expenses. leaving 1.5% for investing for liability. They will only generate 230,000 direct payments and 144,000 in interest leaving them $1.124 Million short of the promised cap per policy.

This Bill guarrentees the near immediate bankruptcy of small health insurers and the eventual bankruptcy of all health insurers.

BTW - most states already limit insurers to 15% for expense and profit. They try to break even and make up for the deficits by charging more in states that allow 20 or 25%.

So did they cancel YOUR policy? I'm betting you'd fight hard if your kid had cancer and they wouldn't cover them.

Does America need universal health coverage? Yes.

Do we need to dump pre-existing conditions? Yes.

Was Obama insane when he tried to tell us that adding people with pre-existing conditions and people whom in 2008 were "uninsurable" would not add a single penny, in fact cost less? yes.

Is Obama wrong when he forces business to pay for the coverage and then is surprised when business slows hiring? Yes.

Is it time to tariff goods and use some of the revenue created to pay for health care insurance, while making manufacturing cheaper here bringing back jobs? Yes.

WW3COMIN.......OMG I'll be laughing for a week over that one!!! That's the Best One I've heard yet!!! Where do I send My Money to contribute for making the Best 2012 Slogan for a Bumpersticker Campaign??

DB Akron,

You neglect one not-so-small point --- the ability to buy health insurance across state lines effectively eliminates ALL state regulation of insurance companies --- same trick as was used by bankers to thwart state regulation of banks.

Chris-749391

DB Akron,

You neglect one not-so-small point --- the ability to buy health insurance across state lines effectively eliminates ALL state regulation of insurance companies --- same trick as was used by bankers to thwart state regulation of banks.

You bet, the ability to buy health insurance across state lines would have caused our insurance costs to drop. Auto insurance is a perfect example which proves our medical insurance could be a lot cheaper today if Americans could buy health insurance across state lines..

"McDonald's, insurers get waivers to maintain coverage far below the new law's standards"

As usual the New York Times distorts the news! They fail to mention that the new health care law requires coverage for many medical situations that only the extremely rare person may possibly use but which causes extreme rate hikes for policy holders.

Why should McDonald's employees be required to pay huge premiums for coverages they'll never want, need or use?

This is like the law passed in the seventies that all medical policies have to include pregnancy coverage even when the coverage is for all male monks from a religious order who will never use pregnancy coverage.

One size doesn't fit all!

Never forget: When the government takes over anything, stupidity and unfairness results!

pluffmudgal-you can send your donation to the people who actually made it up if you can find out who it actually was. this is alrready someone else's sticker idea though.

http://www.patriotdepot.com/onebigassmistakeamerica.aspx

This will insure a the lost of the house and senate come Nov. Repeal obozocare and impeach obama!

Section 1333 of the HCR allows for purchasing insurance across state lines. This is one of the provisions that the Republicans have in their "Pledge".

I have always believed and still do. That this is a plan his friends pushed for to make america pay the insurance co. Not going to change anything for us just make us pay them if it helps us or not. Later they will get there lawyers in court and stop the perexisting thing too. But not the fact that you have to pay them.

grunt-1263073

So did they cancel YOUR policy? I'm betting you'd fight hard if your kid had cancer and they wouldn't cover them.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=BtsqAAAAIBAJ&sjid=k9AFAAAAIBAJ&pg=6343,735733&dq=republican+health+care+bill+timeline&hl=en

There's a bill from 1996 that would extend coverage to 25 million additional people who were being denied due to pre-existing conditions. It's quite enlightening if you compare it to the bill we have now 14 yrs later.

and to think that most of the HCR act doesn't go into effect until 2014 - 2-16.

Someone should keep track of all of the earmarks added to the bill to get ewnough votes to pass.

lonewarder: LOL! Good call!

I, also, notice that the only people that bitch and complain are the ones that have insurance, and technically are not ones to talk.

Just like the ones who have their jobs, not only just bitch but, can't do anything anyway to help fight the unemployeement/ job layoffs problem.

Just like the ones that bitch about the War on Terror, which we're currently winning! The haters state they're American and they love our troops, yet they all turned their backs to Obama claiming,"It's Obama's war now!" and recently there are some who are spitting on the dead troops from the war, just because they're fighting under Obama's charge, despite the fact that they're fighting for We the People and America.

Oh yes, these guys are insured, always have been. And well employeed too. They're cerainly no one to pay attention to now, concerning insurance waivers, they way they weren't back when the new Healthcare came out, cause let's face it, there's no such thing as a grandma murdering doctor, BY LAW! Not by law, anyway. If there are, they've certainly broke the law, and it's the worthless republicans, their followers, the so called "rebel patriots", "Anarchist Americans" and teabaggers, or whatever they call themselves, that has done nothing but make these claims. It's really no wonder why the left and the wacky libs vote against the Rwingers. I can't call them r-ght, because it wouldn't be.

satownmytown ---

the ones that are bi.atch.ing are the ones whose employers are going to be forced to drop coverage because of the fines, taxes and penalties associated with this pile of manure known as obamascare.

otherwise, why would companies like att($1 billion/qtr), caterpillar ($300 million/qtr, john deere ($150 million/qtr), and other fortune 1000 companies be taking these monstrous charges, as required by sec regulations and sarbanes oxley? because they know they will be forced into an inferior plan-the gummint option-as an astronomical cost compared to what they and their employers previously paid.

after all, obamascare was intentionally designed to force employers to drop their coverages in order to get the entire population into the gummint plan.

after all, this is the same crew that ran the world famous Mustang Ranch first into bankruptcy, then into oblivion after treasury seized it.

if they can't run a whorehouse an hour from vegas profitably, why the hell should we trust them with our lives?

@Lonnie Bedell

Thanks for bringing up the Mass. model enacted by Mitt Romney. Very, very similar indeed. Obviously both of these laws are, shall we be polite and say, "extremely flawed". Seems most people don't realise that a republican was the first to introduce such a plan, or perhaps since it has proved to be an utter disaster, they simply don't wish to make the association. Certainly can't blame them. Anyway, back on topic. Yes, the present so-called health care bill must be completely reworked and reformed. Phasing the insurance industry gradually out of the picture over an extended period of time would probably be a good idea in the long run as well. Perhaps premiums paid directly to the actual health care entities. This, at least, would eliminate paying for the profit margin of the insurers, for which we get nothing in return. Just an idea and I'm sure it needs work, but it would seem to me that this third useless wheel could be eliminated and never missed.

Even England is running from their socialized medical system. It does not work in a country that is smaller than the USA. It will not work here.

Massachusetts is not the original Romney Care. He wouldn't accept the bloated version so the legislature pared down the functions they wanted and put in cost saving features Romney wanted to get it installed. After Romney left office they expanded the benefits under his successor to what they wanted in the first place. This is why you don't give an inch to the Democrat - in the end the democrat will take the whole yard!

This is why Romney won't win in 2012 - he caved - what do you think he will do in DC?

Romney is a rino. Socialist bastard that thinks he can play dem politics while pretending to be a republican.

@Bob Randall : Really? Romney is some kind of secret socialist agent? We've got a huge fence between liberal and conservative in this nation. Why don't you come back to it from far right field and have a reasonable discussion?

True that, im a conservative who has traveled widely. In Canada some Provinces have much better health care than others, even though its all single payer. But single payer is a way better way to go then this Crazy bloated bill we have now. The thing about Guv'ment run health care in single payer countries the left likes to use as examples is this,Canada has only 30 milion people while we have almost that may here illegally. That makes single payer pretty easy to admi nister in Canada. The collosal incompetance of our guv'ment makes almost any guv'ment run anything a instant failure. We cant even deliver the mail without running a deficit. Oh , and if you think there wont be rationing youre out of your mind. I dont care what anyone says.Within 5 years we will be short approx 68000 docters. You cant be that short without there having to be some rationing in care

But see, the righties want to ELIMINATE Social Security all together so their GREEDY masters (rhymes with bastards) can get even BIGGER tax breaks.

They are truly sick people who want to put millions of starving seniors on the street so they can get tax breaks.

flikfreek - that's a lie and you know it, or you should. The conservatives want to allow people in the future to invest a percentage of their SS in the stock market. Those vested in the program now would remain unchanged. If you don't want to gamble you can invest in bonds, very conservative and returning at least two to three times what Uncle Sam pays us now. The money would be inherited when you die by your beneficiary(ies). Now when you die you are awarded $270, which won't even buy a nice arrangement for your own funeral.

Now, what's not to like about that?

Thinksbeforejudging

"considering the amount of people that they have to administer things to under government run programs, most programs are a RESOUNDING SUCCESS!"

Which ones? The post office? Food Stamps? Welfare? Maybe you meant medicare? If so please think back to when Obama and Company were doing that little round table deal with the Republicans and Obama said that they would trim the fat off of medicare to help pay for this bill. Do you remember? Every Obama supporter on the VINE was agreeing with the President that Medicare was so screwed up that hundreds of millions of dollars were going to waste through fraud and over-payments. Is that the resounding success that you are talking about? So you see it as a success but Barry, and Nancy and Harry saw it as so miss-managed that they would be able to trim upwards of $500 million dollars from it to make this new health care bill work?

How about the VA. Lets look at that system. In many VA hospitals it can take months to get appointments with your Doctor unless its an emergency then they tell you to dial 911 and go to the nearest emergency room; not necessarily their's. Then if you put in a disability claim it will take upwards of 6 months before they are adjudicated. If you disagree with their findings and appeal, your appeal will normally take at least a year and most of the time a lot longer before it is acted upon. Yes the government is extremely efficient but only in spending tax dollars hand over fist. When they really have to run something they are as worthless as..... the current administration!

Hey RangerJohn.

I lived in Canada when the original health care bill was introduced, and eventually passed. One of the biggest fear mongering tactics was to say that all of the doctors would flee the country. Guess what? It didn't happen. In fact, doctors came there because they could still make a great living and were free to treat sick people, without having to deny treatment to people who needed it, because of the cost. They were free to be doctors again, and not accountants. What a concept!

I've dealt with the federal government in filing a medical claim for a client. What a nightmare. The amount of paperwork required made that required from health insurance companies look like a piece of cake. We finally gave up and took the loss. Welcome to a single payor system.

flikfreek,

the gop does not want to eliminate social security. it is in favor of giving people the option to invest their own and their employer's tax withholding into an account controlled by said citizens. what is wrong with that picture? nothing, except in the mind of a librul who is all about controlling the populace.

after all, as queen nancy said regarding pending legislation to force all 401ks and retirements into social security (or at a minimum buy government bonds): "the American people want the assurance that Washington is responsibly in control of their future and their retirement assets". (interview with American Benefits Manager magazine, fall 2008 edition).

this, from the crew that put a famous whorehouse, an hour from vegas, in bankruptcy less than 6 months after seizing it.

I'm sure the people who made money with Madoff did not see any problem with that PONZI scheme.

Unfortunately, Social Security uses the exact same pyramid model that Madoff used.

The people at the top of the pyramid (retirees) get paid with money from the people at the bottom of the pyramid (workers). As long as plenty of people are brought into the scheme, it "works".

Of course, if not enough people or money is brought in at the bottom, the Ponzi scheme collapses.

I think Madoff went 20 years. I'm sure Social Security could go 100. Unfortunately, we are already 80 years into the SS Ponzi Scheme.

livinginwoodstock74

"@Bob Randall : Really? Romney is some kind of secret socialist agent? We've got a huge fence between liberal and conservative in this nation. Why don't you come back to it from far right field and have a reasonable discussion?"

Oh, so you don't think he is a socialist? Tell me who push healthcare in Massachusetts, that is already going bankrupt like most socialist ideas do? You buddy Mitt.

Maybe you should move out of Woodstock. The residual effects seem to have slowed your brain from cognitive thinking.

He will say anything he feels will get him elected, just like Obama did.

Didm't think you had a followup.

TY for the no comment.

Whoa...Sue...I don't know anyone that wants a single payer program. You might want to back off on the evil insurance companies and talk about the evil government.

I'm all for a single payer medical service system. You are the single payer. Please pay up front in cash for all services you use.

In God we trust, all others pay cash.

No tickee, no washee.

You have the right to pursue happiness. You have the right to fail. You have the right to die.

Please pay before pumping....LOL

What poll did you get your information from? There has not been one poll even the ones done by liberal organizations that show the American Public wants a single payer health care system. On the contrary most polls have shown by a wide margin the American Public wants government to keep their hands off private health care.

And your thinking Liberals back up any of their statements with facts.

Susan, please, where do you get your news from? Or are you just delusional and have drank too much of Obama's kool-aid? Welcome to the mind of Obama ... welcome to Obamaville. So, we now know there are at least TWO who want single payer.

Nope you are wrong Sue. There are a few but that broad sweeping statement is simply not true. You and a few of your progressive friends want it but not the "American Public". Don't presume to speak for me.

They have done polls. A good percentage of people are unhappy with the Democratic bill BECAUSE IT DOESN'T GO FAR ENOUGH TO A PUBLIC PLAN! This article says that some insurers don't want to use 85cents of every dollar of our hard earned money to pay us benefits. They want to use less! How do you Republicans justify that waste?

David-northwest,

What the polls have stated is the US Taxpayer DO NOT want the Government involved in health care. Almost 60% want BHO care TERMINATED. Show me a reference that states otherwise.

It was Pelosi that KILLED the 'Single Payer' because even the DEMOCRATS would not support it.

The Republicans statement is; Pass no bill unless it is Fully FUNDED and supported by the US Voter. And if you are not in the program, you do not receive the CARE unless you pay for it.

What is so hard to understand???

David-only the far left wants a single payer system. Most Americans want to work, earn their way, keep what they earn, have the choice to have health care or not or what level of health care they have. Please-Do not spout any crap about the poor needing health care-they have it. It's called Medicaid. If something meaningful was done, there would be tort reform and the ability to buy health insurance across state lines. There is only one insurance company that can sell policies in New Hampshire or in Alaska (there are only 2 companies in New York)-that used to be called a monopoly. Now it's okay because it's a state approved monopoly. 40% of the people who do not have healthcaredon't want it. They can afford it, they just choose to spend their money elsewhere. Why should they be forced to purchase something they don't want? Should the government have the right to tell you what car to buy? Or what food to buy? What if the government suddenly said that the only food you could buy was from McDonald's? Or you could only buy organic produce? Or you could NOT buy organic produce? This is a one-size-fits-all plan. I'm sorry-I'm not the same as you-and what is good for you is not necessarily good for me.

All of you who think that this is a "good thing" should remember that Obama is not president for life, and at some point, someone you hate is going to be president. Giving this much power to one person is dangerous.

David - are you aware that many of the "greedy" insurance companies are non-profits? Kaiser, the some / many / all Blue Cross / Blue Shield (not sure as there are a lot of these), and others.

At some point you must back up your screed with actual information. If it costs more than $0.15 of every dollar to deliver healthcare, did you ever think that maybe it was because they have to pay for stuff the government requires, have to cover never-ending lawsuits, and may have other issues like loss due to non-payment (first or second largest cause of bankruptcy is due to serious illness, meaning the health insurers and providers end up not getting paid).

I'm no expert, but if Kaiser and Blue Cross are non-profits, I guess they can't have budgetary issues that include "greed".

@Thinker

Many Americans WANTED and still want a single payer health care system instead of the "for profit disaster" that we have today. The Health care bill was a Republican (Romney-like) flawed compromise that Republicans ran away from even though much of it was their idea (originally proposed by Republicans as an alternative to Hillary care). We should have gone for Hillary care a long time ago. But, I suppose we could just push FORWARD and extend availability of Medicare (for a fee - not for free) as an OPTION for those who are unable to get in the good graces of Private health insurance firms.

Scott & mdionne . . . . Canada's healthcare system is on the road to bankruptcy. Within the next decade the costs will overwhelm provincial budgets. Funny how just a few years ago the little town of Bellingham WA had more MRI machines than the entire Vancouver area . . . population almost 2 million. If you can wait months to see a specialist or for surgery, upwards to a year for joint replacement and have trouble finding a family doctor . . . why the Canuck system would work well for you . . . for a while anyway.

If you want something run badly get the govt to do it . . . look at the great job they are doing educating your kids . . . lol

Almost twenty years ago I reviewed part of a friend's hospital bill.

He was being charged over $100 a day for about one gallon of boiled salt water. i am sure the price for that complicated solution has increased since then.

Tell me how this is Obama's fault and I will gladly read every idiotic rant on this forum.

Whoever said that a majority of American's don't want single payer or UHC is either lying or has drunk too much of the Glenn Beck flavored Kool-Aid -- here is a site that has results and links to every major poll about this issue - http://www.wpasinglepayer.org/PollResults.html

People please calm down and evaluate your biases. Doesn't it stand to reason that if we have an elected Democrat majority, then their actions are aligned in general with the will of the people? Ah, my mistake... the Democrats are socialists who are pursuing their own agenda that is completely separate from the will of the people. I know this because I just saw an interview with John Boener, and watched the analysis on Fox News.

By the way, my sarcasm works against liberals who only watch msnbc. That's the real problem damn it. The people of this democratic republic do not have a selection of reliable, objective news sources from which to form their opinions. At the same time, tons of money from businesses gets poured into our electoral process, and saturates our representatives and senators via lobbying.

The system is broken and under the surface we all know it. But we still play the same old games.

Susan, most of American do not want a single payer system. What is the old addage? Be careful what you ask for, you may just get it. I have posted this many times before. Medicare has the highest rate of denying procedures and claims. If you average the whole private insurance industry, it is about 3.5% and Medicare denies over 6.5% of all claims and procedures. This is what you will get out of a government healthcare system. The federal government is bankrupting our country, Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security, Postal service, and other programs. You acutally think that the government can run healhtcare? Just under this bill alone, the IRS will be hiring at least 15,000 people to make sure you have coverage, and if not, they will be making you pay a fine/tax. The tax that obama, pelosi, and reid said it wasn't. And now, they say it is a tax. The government has a very high percentage of fraud in Medicare and has no idea how to deal with it.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22184921/

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2009/aug/27/tom-coburn/coburn-says-20-percent-every-medicare-dollar-goes-/

And if the government takes charge of the healtcare system, you are talking well over 100 billion per year in fraud. I can not believe any one wants the government to run healtcare. Realize this, no one can be legally denied medical services. No one!!

Also, the healthcare industr on an average only makes about 6 - 8 percent profit. In dollars, it is a large amount, but most businesses make profits twice this.

If a 4% profit margin is greedy, im Donald freakin Trump !!! Boeings profit margin? 24% Microsoft? 16%. Do some research. And maybe learn something about running a business

alderwood

Whoever said that a majority of American's don't want single payer or UHC is either lying or has drunk too much of the Glenn Beck flavored Kool-Aid -- here is a site that has results and links to every major poll about this issue - http://www.wpasinglepayer.org/PollResults.html

Anyone with a half a brain can tell this is a bogus website. NEWS FLASH anyone can set up a website and this one is is very amateurish at best. Just like the old days don't beleive everthing you read, well don't believe every website you see. If everyone loved Obamacare like you liberals want to think they do, all the democrates will would not be hiding out or trying to convince everyone they didn't vote for it and how bad an idea it was to begin with.

tpatten

Amusing the HCB provided the insurance companies with millions of new customers thanks to the crooked dealings in the Demoncratic party.

The HCB does nothing to control the cost of services provided that would have meant taking on the Doctors and Nurses who surely are not going to take a pay cut while having to service more people since there is not enough of them.

So the Demons tried the next best thing, I will increase insurance policy holders by making a bogus law through the commerce that states you are required to have insurance as an American. Wow how stupid is that.

Does absolutely nothing to control cost. Zip, Nada, Zero, Nil

So now companies are going hey if you don't give me a waiver we are going to move out of the country. So the government in its infinite wisdom backed itself into a corner, nothing new.

Good damn thing elections are around the corner or everyone won't have a choice but to be democratic and ask for food stamps and a handout. 41 million people on food stamps that's change you can beleive in.

For those of you who think this started with Bush and will end with Obama, you aren't old enough to comment, but you are old enough to buy your insurance before paying for college, as it started back in the 60's and for those who are still in office from the 60's you should be jailed.

Vote all of them out and remove the moles assigned to Government positions that are not allowed to be Civilian as they are appointed by the previous administration for voting stupid $hit in and getting booted by the voters after doing so. Then are promised a job for that vote.

The biggest scam of all.

Time for all of them to go.

So true. When the pollsters broke down the "No I don't like health care" folks, they found 40% wanted single payer. This poll was published here last week.

This article highlights why we need single payer HC. The insurers don't want their profits brought down by having to care for very sick children.

As a society, what is more important; giving very sick children at least a basic level of care or maximizing the profits of insurance companies.

David - Poll the folks who pay taxes and see what the results read. I'm sure the 47% of the country that's on the dole wants single payer, it's just one more bennie paid for by some else.

PauF,

The old Blue Cross Plans were indeed non-profit. But under the Reagan administration it was decided that this gave them an unfair advantage over for-profit health insurance companies, so it was required that non-profits set aside a year's cash reserves. They, of course, had no way to do this. So they all declared bankruptcy (I think about 68 plans at the time) and re-organized. Some re-organized as for-profit stock companies and others reorganized as not-for-profits (not exactly the same as non-profits) that were owned by for-profit companies.

An example is Blue Cross-Blue Shield of Alabama which controls over 95% of all health insurance in Alabama (where I live.) It is not-for-profit, but is owned by the highly profitable Able Insurance Corp which makes about 24-25% profit from BCBSAL through various bookkeeping measures.

I used to work for Blue Cross Blue Shield of Tennessee in the 1970's before this happened. We paid out $1 in claims for every $1 we took in in premiums. We paid all our overhead by running a Shared Hospital Accounting System for small hospitals and by processing Medicare Part A & B claims for the federal government. The income from these two sources could not exceed our overhead. This was the sort of thing that for-profit health insurance companies could not compete against. So they lobbied and got the old Blue Cross system shut down.

Lenny-2349287 - try following the links on that page and you'll find that what you spewed is nothing but right wing nonsense.

tpatten, The health care bill did nothing to address medical costs such as your example. Start reading.

Wakehead, the profit margins on an average for health insurance company is about 6 - 8 percent. Most businesses operate on a lot larger margin than this. People do not have all the facts if they think that a sinble payer/government run health care system is great. I would debate any of you on any day to prove you wrong. Medicare has the highest rate of denials for procedures and for claims than any other private insurance company. They are at about 6.7%. The healthcare industry on and average is around 3.5%. There is no way that the costs for the healthcare bill is accurate. The CBO only estimates on what the government gives them. The CBO also stated that the federal government was double counting the $500 billion in Medicare savings and in the end do you think it will happen? If so, I have a bridge to sell you. There is 20% waste in the Medicare system now and has been this way for decades and the federal government has been unable to do anything about it. The feds are bankrupting Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, Post Office, Amtrak, and do any of you honestly think they can run 1/6 of our economy? There is no way on this earth. What is going to happen when you, a friend, a relative, grandparents, etc. either take months to get an Xray, MRI, or something that is needed? What is going to happen when the feds tell them that they can not have the procedure? As bad as many of you think the insurance companies are, the government is the worse, by far. Many of you need to look at all the facts and not just that people get healthcare. Have any of you actually thought why do insurance companies deny preexisting conditions? Because it would bankrupt them. How many people do you think will pay the few hundred dollar penalty instead of thousands of dollars in premiums? They will wait for years and when they get a catastrophic illness, they will walk in to the insurance company and say "I want your best policy, no copays, no deductibles". They can not be turned down. When cured, they will drop the insurance, again. The other honest people will still have to make up the difference. It saves nothing. Did any of you read about 3M dropping health insurance to all of their retirees after 2013 or 2014? Did you read that McDonald's is dropping healthcare to their part time employees? This is what you precious healthcare bill has done. Almost all of the democrats failed to read this before voting on it. This just speeds up the democrat party on how they are bankrupting our country.

Mark-384387 - the reason that most insurance companies' profit margins are that low is not that they are operating on a shoestring budget. Dig deeper and you will find that, on average, 17% of all premiums collected are spent on executive compensation. Companies always try to manipulate key metrics in order to present a picture that they consider suitable for public consumption. However, one must only look at the companies' financial statements to find the real culprit, which is executive greed.

I begrudge no person or organization in the pursuit of an HONEST dollar, but you have your head stuck in the sand if you believe the poor, poor claims of the insurance companies.

I had blue cross and blue shield insurance. It's the reason I don't trust insurance companies anymore. I was paying $88 a week, with a $35 copay. The lady beside me paid a bill for $35 so I said she has bcbs too aye. The lady said no she don't have insurance. I said why does she pay the same as me. Thats what we charge your insurance co. don't pay anything on the visit. Well I guess it's good for a major problem though right? No your major medical won't begin to pay the cost of a major illness. Well I only pay $2 for medicine, All they aprove is the $4 and below medicines. So why should I pay this money that I do, Well it makes people feel better if they have insurance.

Susan-2428843

"The American Public wants single payer health care."

I can only hope you are wealthy enough to pay for the rest of us. Of course you are not and want those who work to pay for you.

The problem in Canada is a lack of specialists and technicians. You can argue why that would be, but that's a Canadian problem, not an American one. In America, we have the opposite problem: too many specialists, and not enough GPs. Med students aren't stupid, they know where the money is, and that's specialization. We could change that with incentives easily, if we had the political will to do so. Canada has nothing to do with American health care. It's a totally different situation up there, and we could do it better, obviously.

I work and have all my life. I'm fairly well off, but not "rich". I am an American who wants single-payer health care and I'm certain it will happen eventually. There is no other long-term answer.

And if we take the real amount and spread it out over the next 500 years it does result in a very tiny increase.

Who's going to pay for it now? What he and his minions were saying was it's going to cost any more. You can't add 30M people with no money to a program and say I won't cost anything.

Who was going to pay for the cost of maintaining the old system where inflation was already out of control? The argument was "we can't afford it." The problem is, we couldn't afford to do nothing... we tried the republican way since the death of HillaryCare, premiums were up by nearly 300 percent, medical bankruptcies more than doubled. The reality is that though many people are willing to rabblerouse about what they're against, nobody has put forth any substantively better ideas. Even the purist "get your own insurance" or the "pay up front" crowd concede that even a rich or insured guy, when taken to the hospital unconscious after a heart attack, may well die while we check to see if he's going to have the money to pay.

For all the "right to life" crap the right spews about fetuses, this topic draws to the surface the ire they have for those already living... they'd gladly let a baby die if it had the misfortune of being born to indigent parents. I'm sure the true conservatives would rather just bill the baby for it's own care and charge an interest rate, then let it work as an indentured servant until the bill is paid off.

Ken - at least it took a decade or more to get there ... mine has doubled in the last 12 months and will go up again...Higher premiums and higher deductables.... all of this I have heard to be the 'Unintentional comsequences" of the healthcare reform. I beg to differ .... they were very much intended. When a sitting president criticizes law enforcement, and a specific form of media what does he really stand for? When a probe is launched to determine if the white house has violated tax privacy laws (against a conservative company) what does that say about that sitting president? I wonder what will be the unintentional consequences of wall street reform?????

Ken-583017,

The Doctors are pulling out of Medicare/Tricare and Medicaid. There are already projections of DR and RN shortages and the inability to train the needed replacements. Who is going to be supplying the Health Care?

What are you going to do when the Gov supplied Health Care informers you; that the next available appointment is ONE month from now and that the procedure you need is not Cost Effective?

This is happening already in MA, which has had BHO care for years.

@Ken : Brilliant! Let's charge the babies for their birth, at a measly 18% interest, deferred until they are 15 years of age and able to work part time in most states!

AC, it will be called rationing. It takes weeks and months to get x-rays and MRI's in countries with socialized medicine. The people for this will not open up their eyes and realize that there will be rationing. There was already a doctor on the news that said he is now having huge problems getting one of his patients medical treatment for having cancer the second time. This is just the start.

Thinksbeforejudging

Brilliant ask them to leave faster than they are thinking of leaving, I disagree 100%.

If you do a job and someone says hey if you don't do this then you cant work here, most will take their profession elsewhere as opposed to being told you will or leave.

That would collapse the system completely.

Mark-384387 -- you have no clue what you are talking about. I lived much of my adult life in Europe where these pesky socialized programs are used, and the truth is quite the opposite. With emphasis on prevention, rather than on treatment, not only are costs cheaper per capita but there is less waiting in emergency rooms, for procedures, etc. simply because the people are healthier, and in addition the people don't have to risk bankruptcy whenever they become ill or injured. The right have convinced themselves that UHC will suffer from what economists term the "freeloader effect", in that a free public good will be overused to the point of saturation so that eventually very few will benefit. Yes, demand for medical services will increase under UHC, but per capita costs drop dramatically as emphasis shifts towards cheaper preventative care. The proof is in the data - the U.S. spends $5,711 per person for healthcare, whereas an evil "socialist" country like Denmark spends $2,743 per capita. link - http://www.kff.org/insurance/snapshot/chcm010307oth.cfm

Alderwood. You do not know what you are talking about.

http://freemarketcure.com/socializedmedicineissicko.php

http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?

id=21227http://www.capitalismmagazine.com/science/medicine/4924-Want-Socialized-Medicine.html

http://newsbusters.org/blogs/brad-wilmouth/2009/08/01/abc-s-stossel-slams-socialized-medicine-finds-obama-expressed-interes

Mark-384387 --- your "proof" is indicative of the ignorant wingnut sensibility I see displayed so much by the right. Your first two links are the EXACT same opinion piece posted on different sites, and it hasn't a shred of backing data. What I find peculiarly interesting is that all four of your links attack the Canadian and British systems, yet no U.S. metrics are presented so the reader can make a valid comparison. I highly doubt that this omission is coincidental. And even IF I were to accept your "proof" as valid, which it is not, then why not compare the U.S. system to other socialized systems as well? The author, and in essence you as well, has cherry-picked data in order to support his or her viewpoint. I have faith that you can do better than this.

Workers of the world unite.... sound familiar?

The funny thing about banks, lawyers and insurance companies is that these are the very organizations and people who have profited and been bailed out by our current President. Obama has transferred more wealth in less time to fewer people than any many in history.

Funny that all these liberal millionaires in Congress seem just like the people they love to vilify.

Don't let the fact that the original TARP was ramrodded through by Bush admin get in the way of a good rant, Paul.

At least we got the TARP money back, that is at least until Obama spent it again

And don't forget Fannie and Freddie are on solid ground and that Congress was in charge of the Congress 2 years prior on Bush's watch.

BS ramrodded through just flat out BS. Franks and Dodd didn't want any regulations on Fannie and Freddie. The start of the economic collapse.

American citizens across the board lost up to 50% of their wealth and retirement due to that.

Vote every last one of these morons out.

CptKirk.....Considering the 700 Billion TARP was passed into law in Oct - Nov 2008, and Obama took control over 350 Billion of it in Jan 2009 (which hasn't been spent & is unaccounted for to date as well as 600 Billion of the "Stimulus Bill") I think a lot more inflation, deflation, recession, and blame will be on Obama & Dems than Anyone else. Especially when one stops to think "If Obama's still sitting on close to a Trillion$$ 2 yrs into this "Recession" then A) It really wasn't needed at all like His Fear-Mongering & Panic Talk indicated or B) It is needed but he's sheltering for Other Purposes. You take Your Pick but either way He looks alot more Greedy & Corrupt than ....oh heck what's the Dems Escape Goat Guy's name.......oh that's right....Bush.

move

What did you expect, your precious democratic party is just like every other party and now you are PO'ed about the fact that they want to stay in power..... If that is what you want then support an effort to declare martial law, call home the military and police the people. We can even set aside a room in the white house for Castro and Chavez if you like!

I really do not understand the thinking - someone needs healthcare, and you should pay for it no matter how much it costs. Not me, you. Let's say "kid" to make it sound even more desperate.

The government could insure each and every kid in need right now. They / we couldn't afford to actually pay for their care, as we are already upside down so far that we are teetering on bankruptcy as a nation, but hey, they need care.

What all you complainers leave out of your argument are the actual facts. How many kids are actually uninsured that need care? Does anyone know? How much would it actually cost to provide the care - not the "insurance" but the actual care.

If you are so damned sure that someone else should pay for this, make your government pay for it. They already have a healthcare system in place.

But instead you whine and criticize with zero actual numbers, and no real fact - just the class hatred / judgmental nonsense. Hell, if it's that important to you, go get a medical degree and work for $0.10 on the $1 and do something, stop crying about it.

I agree. The law is the law, and all are equal under it. The arguments in support of the insurers suffer from a serious moral deficiency, which amounts to, "If we penalize them, they hurt us." We the people, not we the corporations. (To the objectors about people not= corporations, each person who is employed by a corporation has a voice and a vote. Stuff it).

If this bill was so great congress would get on it, Its the very worst of all possible outcomes. Single payer would have been better than this debacle. But hey , without all the loopholes how would our fine congress people get their kickbacks?

We come to a point in time where the tea republicans don't want Americans taken care of. They want MORE sick and dying.

There also comes a time to put the lazy to work and boot them off of a lifetime drain on the system for which they don't contribute.

Compassion America is full of it, when its another country not when it comes to its own people.

Do a massive pull back and watch how fast the world goes to crap.

Bt hey no worries some Chinese will be right over to make you an offer on your home, thanks to the incompetence in office.

Grunt 1263073

If we look at your post you are implying that no republican has a child that has a pre-existing condition. Do everyone a favor, get off the couch and stand up, now reach way down and pull your head out of your 4th point of contact because the current location of your head has cut off your oxygen supply.

No one wants more sick and dying people. You must follow Grayson from Florida to get your talking points. Every person in this Country can get health care regardless of their condition. Hell even the illegals have figured that out. You can go to any emergency room at any hospital and they have to treat you. Case closed so you and anyone else saying that anyone wants more people to be sick and die is idiotic and ridiculous.

I am sure there are several communist socialist nations you could move to and let them run your life and the lives of your kids. Goodbye.

Withmore of your money.... just like the always do..... sheesh

They shouldnt have let the Appolo alliance write the bill either

LOL...you know that ain't going to happen. It should, but not Obama.

Democrats don't make mistakes ..... Bush and Chenney do... Carter says he was a better president ... I am waiting for him to say the failed attempt to free hostages in Iran was Bush and CHenney'sfault.

Pride always goeth before the fall.

To much Billy beer can't be a good thing apparently. Carter is a joke.

Obama can't fulfill his goal of socialism-communism for the United States if he relents on any of his convoluted laws. His communist associates have trained him well and he had the giant ears to listen to them with. Let's all have a tea party in November. Send the progressives to the unemployment line.

yaya, shoved down our throat, november of 2008 never happened, it's not like these people were elected or like Obama even mentioned healthcare during the debates, right? If you freedom lovers in a seething boil now had all bothered to pay any farking attention in the election cycle, we'd be busy right now arguing about whether or not McCain made the right choice by invading Iran and Pakistan while still losing our first two wars.

Ken . . . the only one who said he wanted to invade Pakistan was the Baminator . . . losing your short-term memory I suspect!!!

@Ken - Right on. It's really about what is happening now than what has happened historically (WOW, history in this case is only a few years hence). Does our nation need Ritalin?

@Notbornyesterday - So what would Bush have done? Not secretly invade Pakistan? You're with us or against us, right?

The health care plan was certainly shoved down our throats. I remember Pelosi at the pulpit saying we have to pass this health care bill now before we read it so the people can find out what is in it. Nothing done behind our backs there. Down with the Democrat Socialists return the regular folks to run their government. Vote Conservative and eliminate the socialist elites.

Yea those evil insurance companies, much better the government steal from us.

You do realize that those evil insurance companies you are accusing of stealing from you aren't holding a gun to your head forcing you to do business with them don't you?

I can't get insurance on my own yet because I have Diabetes. The law that says I'm intitle to insurance doesn't go into affect untill 2014 if it goes at all. From the sounds of it most people would rather see me with out insurance!

Confussed I think you are confused...

Your hyperbolic rhetoric does not move the discussion forward. The truth is the government is us, you and me. Taxation without representation is stealing; America is a representative democracy that has taxation with representation-- choices, yes: stealing, no.

As with any new legislation, there will be fits and starts with our healthcare bill. But in time, it will be as much a part of America as Social Security and Medicare. In some future generation, America will have universal health care. America is a good country, and good will eventually prevail when all Americans will have the right at birth to universal health coverage.

The common belief is that government is incompetent and does nothing right. It is common and it is wrong. A country does not last and flourish as America has for 223 years under the same constitution if the government does nothing right. There are so many examples of what government has done under our name that has been immensely successful. Check out: http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/Governmentsuccesses.htm

I am a diabetic as well... since Obamacare was passed and signed ... my cost of diabetes care has risen 250%. Looking ahead I can see it will go up more. Thank you Mr. President... you don't need death panels .... just make it to expensive.

Bill-1893839, the price of my meds and test strips have not changed at the pharmacy. What has changed is the price the insurance companies are charging me for the same meds. A few trips to the ER and I'll have my deductable payed with a quick bankruptcy if I can't get some help from someone else. I'm not going to pay full price plus just to give them my deductable.

The fact is the health insurance companies are truly no better than the federal government. We've collectively been getting screwed by both for years. And make no mistake about it, the health care lobby is completely in bed with the federal government anyway so when you speak of one you are speaking of both. Bottom line is that we are doubly SCREWED! The only fix to this situation is a return to an out-of-pocket pay as you go health care that worked for decades prior to the health care industry being hijacked by the insurance lobby, plaintiff's attorney's and the state and federal governments. All three are stroking each other off while we are left cleaning up the mess.

My premium went up, my deductable went up, the cost of insulin, syringes, test strips went up... Up until 12 months ago the prices was relatively stable. When next year gets here nd insurance premiums are no longer pre-tax and flex spending will no longer be pre-tax and capped a 2500.00 then it will be time for me to decide... eat or by medicine ... and I am gainfuly employed. So now I have to ask myself what has changed in the last 12 months???? I thin you can figure it out.

@Thinker-53390 : How exactly is the government stealing from people? Would you abolish all government? Have you actually studied Libertarian theory, and its objections, or do you just parrot pieces that appeal to you?

To stay more on topic (and to contribute instead of only attack), it seems as if Confussed-1578043 is contributing by telling the community how private insurance has continually failed them. A parallel I have experienced is the steady increase in textbook prices. The material undergoes no real improvement, but the cost increases. That's what I call getting ripped off.

One of the largest health insurers in the nation is UnitedHealth Group which is based in Minneapolis, Minnesota. Their CEO earned nearly $12 million which was a combination of base salary and bonuses. The CEO of Cigna Corporation earned $21 million in 2008.

Read more: Salaries of Health Insurance Executives | eHow.com http://www.ehow.com/about_5304423_salaries-health-insurance-executives.html#ixzz11geLnWgQ

American's wanted CHANGE... bend over America here it comes!!

I read a majority of the posts above, and what seems odd to me is, the Health care reform was designed, written, and passed by the DEMOCRATS.... I wasn't asleep, iving in denail, or looking at the world through rose colored glasses when that was in the news... Yet i see countelss posts complianing and blameing the Republicans... Ummm Im not a Republican, or a Democrat, so you partisan name calling means little to me... However... this mess was made by the DEMOCRATS PERIOD! The Republicans Didnt draft it, the Republicans werent allowed to contribute to it, The Republicans Didn't pass it into law, So get the facts straight.

Hope you're all happy.... you wanted CHANGE... so bend over America... here it comes!.

GDI - the democrats are sore because the republicans didn't fight hard enough to prevent the bill from being passed. Be interesting in 2014 to see how much of this stuff comes back up to the voters attention. I am sure that some of this debacle is being written into campaign ads for 2010.

since it was the white house that issued them, I am sure it was the president ... wonder how much the democratic campaign coffers expanded for that? Hmmmm

Apparently, Obama finally read the health care bill.

it''s a 1 year waiver... merely time to let some companies get up to speed before 2014

it''s a 1 year waiver... merely time to let some companies get up to speed before 2014

No, it's merely time to let the mid-term elections pass.

this is easy - they are politicians! They want to stay in office and make more money than you do .... and if they lose then they will have to have the new Obama care .... and that is scary for them.

2477666 - other than the fact that politicians rarely think past the next election and its costs, I would be fine if obama just told the corporations "it's my way or the highway". Much like he told the conservatives and anyone else that disagreed with him.

And liberals say that obama isn't in bed with corporations or wall st.

I dunno bud, my guess is all companies will get a waiver at some point, only ones that don't is us.

Yeah, don't forget that waivers were given to unions also. Perhaps your union. If so, are you still going to vote with your feet. ROFLMAO @ U.

Can I have a waiver too....... Then I can waiver bye bye to Obama

reno paul - don't forget to vote for your favorite liberal in november of 2010 & 2014.

Sorry for the misprint. It should be 2,300 pages long.

Does 2,300 pages seem like it's too long to try to lay out an entire structure of healthcare payment in a nation our size? I mean, if it were some 18 page thing filled with vagueries, would we appoint a supreme healthcare court in perpetuity so they can tell us whether or not we are applying the 18 pages in the correct manner? It occurs to me that people who think 2300 pages, the length of 6 or 7 novels, is unbearably long are people who aren't necessarily prone to reading anything in the first place.

Bill-1893839

Ken - considering that it is washinton bureacrats that composed it ... there is no correct answer to that .... 2, 23, 2,300, or 23,000 pages ... .it still would not be correct. You are very short sighted if you are still supporting Mr. Chrisma, the wicked witch, and Dirty Harry

2300 pages would be good if it had been well studied by the ones casting the votes. The actual legislation went through pretty quickly in the scope of things and I am sure was largely reviewed by staffers. Something so important deserved to have all the voters be well versed...that didn't happen.

Remember Pelosi saying we need to pass the thing to see what's in it?

Yes I do .... I also remember Senator McCaskill of Missouri asking people at a town hall ... "Don't you trust me?" what a response she was treated to!!!!! LOL

I understand that in addition to 2300 pages of the HC bill there are already some 5000 pages of regulations associated with the implementation of the law. Where is our green government now? No green will be left in our pockets with HC reform because we did not get HC reform, we got insurance regulation. The insurance companies never claimed to be not for profit businesses, now HC will become another abysmal government run program like the Post Office (how much money are they losing every year? How much does the head of the Post Office make?), Medicare, Social Security are bankrupt, and the socialist/liberals want to cite those programs as examples?

senator baucus, the senate sponsor of the bill admitted he never read the entire bill. Same with almost all of the democrats. Which obama promised would never happen. He also promised transparency, which almost all of the negotiations were behind closed doors. The Republicans and American people were never allowed to know what was in this bill before it was voted on. Be for real, people, the democrats did not want us to know what was in it. Because it will not control costs, it will not control premium increases and will make them worse, it will expand the size of government by over 15,000 more IRS agents, it will cause rationing with fewer doctors, and more. Most of the people commenting on this have never sat down and thought about the consequences of this bill. Most of you are thinking, hey everyone is covered. First, not everyone is covered as obama, pelosi, and reid said would happen. All three did not want you to see the consequences. why to you think most of this bill does not come in to play until 2014, give or take? Because when you see the consequences, it would be too late for the elections. Also, the feds are going to start collecting money for this ahead of time. Can you say robbing social security? The government has never kept their hands off of money sitting there.

bernie - when you said 23000 pages I thought you were referring to the number of pages that the HCR act was going to be generated into by the bureaucracy to implement the plan. Not quite sure if it will be that short. lol!

I'd say the average IQ of anyone who votes couldn't possibly exceed 100. You people keep crying for change yet you keep voting either Republican or Democrat. Not a third option? Well don't vote or vote for the independant that you know won't win and therefore won't be able to be a part of the problem! Just because you registered to vote doesn't mean you are legally obligated to do so.

chrisbr1111,

Fact: The average republican is more educated and self-sufficient than democrats.

Fact: Republicans contribute much more in time and money to charity than democrats.

Love that punctuation. Exhibit B.

And I would be willing to bet that more Republicans pay taxes than do Democrats.

LMAO, who told you that, the same person who told you who to vote for?

chrisbr,

Don't you just love the way democrats try to get their point across?

That's okay chrisbr1111, the average IQ of a democrap voter is about 10, so the Republican voters are 10 times smarter. What a shame you aren't smart enough to see how Obama and the Democraps in Congress have screwed this country up. Now go back to playing with your blocks and dolls and don't try to keep up with the grownups.

Can't find anything else, so now you think you are an English teacher too, TSK TSK

Thats twice yours Chris.... you have to have the government do all your thinking.... Wait a minute... that would make you like Charlie McCarthy .... but since you are not that old ... .Achmed the dead terrorist might explain it better.... you know the wooden headed puppet with someones hand shoved up ... and that person does all the talking!

I don't even think you make it on the IQ chart.

The people who voted for Obama have an IQ less then a hundred.

chris,

After reading this article, you dis Republicans? Let's be serious for a minute; tell me why I'd want this health bill over gainful employment? Wouldn't it have made more sense to put people to work building up our infrastructure first, so that we would have at least had something to show for all the money Congress spent?

The health insurance package was stuffed down our throats and made mandatory by a bunch of people (they happen to be politically aligned with the Democratic party) behind closed doors, and this makes sense for the nation?! That's so not Republic. A mandatory edict. Humm. Now Mc Donalds, one of the biggest earners in the world, and the lowest wager, doesn't have to fully partisipate. Wow. So much for the little people and there goes your democrats aren't pro-megacorp dogma. Have you any idea how many taxes US citizens are responsible for paying right now? Regardless of whether we pay all of them individually, we are affected by all of them as individuals. Now, a company is a virtual entity. You and I are not virtual, we must eat.

I suppose you haven't read the current legislation concerning taxing -state-to-state purchases on the Internet. Oh, and the largest presence gets a tax break with this too? Where will the brunt of the state-to-state tax burden fall? Where does it have left to fall? How are we supposed to live?

After that, and only after that, wouldn't it have made more sense to pass through congress the 14 or 15 health regulations that both sides of the party could have agreed upon, rather than do it behind closed doors? I don't think health insurance guarentees food on the table, a roof over our heads, clothes on our backs, and shoes on our feet. But that's just me, ya know.

We've got so many problems to contend with, the biggest problem being over-population and we aren't dealing with anything that remotely looks like the reality we live in with this administration. You've got mainstream Republicans confused with right-wingers and your own party confused with the far left. The minute the left-wingers shut chose to deal with our health care issues behind closed doors, they sealed their fate.

I'm not citing you as the enemy, and I don't think Obama is a bad guy either. I'm so glad to see a man of color in the oval office, I'm all for change but I simply can not get behind a government who demands my partisipation in a health care insurance plan I do not agree with that is crumbling before our eyes. Mc Donalds get a pardon from partisipation but if I don't partisipate, I get a fine. So, I'm either poor as dirt and don't get treatment because I work at Mc Donalds or, I'm above the poverty level and I pay for less than decent health care, or I'm rich and don't have to partisipate? Yeah, this makes sense.

People with jobs make better taxpayers.....

Exhibit A

chrisbr,

Too bad you feel some schmuck in Washington can control your life, run your business and spend your money better than you can. I feel sorry for you!

Chris, appearently you can't read or won't believe that your precious democratic party is political in nature. There for staying in office is the only driving force for any actionthey may take. After all lf they lose then they will be subject to Obama care and that probably scares them most of all.

chrisbr did poorly in reading comprehension. Just another person who needs his/her hand held from the cradle to the grave.

Hope Barry takes his family down to Falcon Lake..next vacation..

for alittle sun, swimming, fishing ... and jet skiing..

Heard its real Exciting down there, this time of year..ha

bet some democrat incumbents would like him to take a vacation now and not return until after the elections.