And the liberals said Glenn Beck was wrong...

How does crow taste Democrats?

Grannyburgers anyone?

I guess it's predictable that no matter how thorough the explanation or rational the attempt to explain why people need to plan in advance for their health care needs, some fanatics will misinterpret this, either intentionally or out of ignorance. If you don't have an advance directive, there's a very good chance the hospital will be draining your resouces, not the tax man, and probably by doing things to you you wouldn't want. Everyone who doesn't want to end their life on a ventilator and a feeding tube needs a living will and a health care proxy. If docs don't get paid to discuss this with you, most of them won't, and YOU will be the one to suffer. Political extremists and opportunists aside, most people understand this is an important service that docs should get paid for.

Ignorants like you should not be allowed to vote or post. Get informed.

He may not be an ignorant, but a genius, namely a gifted child who learned how to type at age 5 and is using mama's computer.

Shades of Omega Man ..."It's people"!

In its original form, this was once every 5 years. Now, Doctors have been given a new billing code. They can have this "little chat" with millions of patients EVERY YEAR !!!....Millions more billable hours to Medicare.....Who was this really designed for...the patient or THE DOCTOR ??.....It's no wonder the AMA liked it.

Ignorants like you should not be allowed to vote or post. Get informed.

Pretty funny. That's how the current idiot in chief got elected - boatloads of ignoramuses.

It's is about time Medicare started end of life care. Our family just went through this with our elderly father, and Medicare only paid for the first 21 days in the hospital..........Whew, we went through thousands of dollars to the hospital, before he died peacefully in his sleep.

Medicare has needed this for a very long, long time. Wish it would have started a year earlier for our family.

Slinger-958418...I am sorry for your loss....but how is it that Medicare paying for a consultation would have made your situation any better ???...

Mike in Delray,

You hit the nail on the head, this has nothing to do with the improvement of care. This same thing has been going on with families and primary care doctors for decades. The kind of final days care will not improve with this but the ability to charge for it will. This is another brianstorm of the closed door meetings between Big Pharma, the AMA, Insurance companies and the unions that the president had when he took office and started his healthcare bill assault on the American taxpayers with his false promises of healthcare coverage for all. His continued lies on that promise should booth his sorry butt back to the Chicago backstreets he so dearly loves.

We need a universal healhcare coverage program.

If your an American citizen, your covered. If not go home.

If you can't pay your share now then the first pay you get goes to paying the debt ratio you should have paid for your share. Otherwise you can't get paid.

If you don't like it no ones forcing you to stay here.

There simple enough and in 2999 less pages. Even a Congressman could read it.

They don't cover end of life care, and it sounds like they are about to expand it, to end of life care..... The current Medicare "drops" elderly people when they go into nursing homes, and it comes out of the families pockets. Surprised the hell out of our family, to know Medicare didn't even help with end of life care..... It can bankrupt a family, very quickly.

Little hard to pay for a Universal Healthcare coverage program for all when your trying to rule the world and keep invading countries over lies. Don't worry the rich have no problems with healthcare while the rest of america is slowly sinking into a cesspool.

SARA was telling the truth!!!

Here come the death panels!

A Person,

It was actually "Soylent Green". Great movie, questionable solution (for now).lol

"If your an American citizen, your covered. If not go home."

The problem is that it will not be just for citizens, just wait.

And, when the illegals cry that they are too poor to pay, guess what? The "rich" will pay for them.

And who will be considered "rich"? Anyone who works "on the books".

Slinger-958418...Here is a link to "The Complete Lives System" written by Obama's "Special Avisor for Health Care" Zeke Emmanuel...Former Chief of Staff Rahm's brother.

This is what this Administration is trying to accomplish.....It is a far cry from what you think they are trying to do.

Every clear thinking American should be agast at what they have in store for us.....

http://community.comcast.net/t5/In-The-News/quot-The-Complete-Lives-System-quot-by-Dr-Emmanuel-Advisor-to/m-p/4264462

They are not looking to cover end of life care.

Hello! This is about the families of the sick person knowing what their sick loved ones want to be done in case they (the sick person) is unable to tell the doctor. What happens if I go into a coma? What happens if I become incapacitated so badly I can't speak or sign anything?

If the wife, children, etc know what I want to be done in those cases, it makes care a whole lot better. If I want the plug pulled - then the plug gets pulled. If I want them to try every and anything to keep me alive, then that is what happens.

I guess I will never understand why the Right, who are typically the casting themselves as protectors of individual rights, would be against a patient being able to talk to their doctor about end of life options. If you (or your parent) were facing terminal illness or even if you were healthy overall and just wanted to make sure YOUR wishes were followed in the event you were incapacitated by stroke or and accident, wouldn't you want to know what your options were? That's all this is. It's about giving the individual access to information, not about forcing you to do something you don't want to do. It's about talking to YOUR PHYSICIAN not appearing before some mythical panel. Stop the nonsense and think ...

End of life planning is good. For those cowardly souls who persist in the lies, already braindead loudmouths need not participate.

End of life planning is good

Yes, it is. For too long, Medicare has stepped back and just let families struggle with all these decisions.......

Mike in Delray,

Where does it say in that link that the administration is trying to implement the findings or opinion solely of the writer?

In any study conducted by intelligent people, more than 1 or 2 ideas are considered. Then the best of all of the ideas put forward are combined to create a path to solution.

On a purely intellectual level what they are saying does make sense. However, as compassionate human beings there is no way that that would be the only means used to help solve the problems with our current health care system.

Brad-2092941......Are you saying that your doctor or your parents doctor(s) won't talk to you or them about this unless medicare pays them extra ???....Time for a new Doctor

“death panels,” Democrats dropped it from legislation to overhaul the health care system. But the Obama administration will achieve the same goal by regulation, starting Jan. 1.

It's time to educate and help people with Facts, not lies... Thumbs up ^....

You would prefer that decisions be made by the allmighty insurance company?

Rasputin-2589057 -  Get informed.

Insurance companies = Death Panels

"SARA was telling the truth!!!

Here come the death panels!"

I think it's time to pull the plug on Sarah and Glenn Beck.

What is the matter with people getting advice on end of life issues?

Everyone should be concerned about being able to determine what should be done when they are near the end of their life.

All that Medicare is doing is to pay doctors to council patients that want to talk about end of life care issues.

My wife and I are both over 65 and on Medicare. Fortunately, we already know about setting up a living will, but why try to keep others from becoming aware of the existence of a living will?

Without the patient's input, there will be a "death panel". It will consist of the doctor and the patient's family, when the end of life decisions have to be made and the patient is not capable of making them, at that time.

Soylent Green.

The 1973 film starring Charlton Heston and Edward G. Robinson. See it now. Prophetic.

Oh, good grief. It's called a Living Will, people. Medicare already pays for consultations, and this is nothing new to the proactive (instead of reactive) people who actually participate in their health care. I have had a Living Will for years, and I'm only 46. We all should make plans for the inevitable while we are healthy, as it takes the burden off those we love. If you want to be hooked to machines, fine. State that in writing. If you do not want extraordinary measures, machines and diapers, state it in writing. Unless it's legally written down somewhere, like in your medical record, you leave those very important decisions for others to make. Be responsible for yourself. It's not Soylent Green...it's a smart thing to do.

The incentive has always been for expensive care patients to die. Whether it be insurance companies or the government. Unless it is being paid for by people who are willing to bear the cost, death is what will be hoped for. It is foolhardy to think insurance through private companies is any different than that provided by government.

If YOU die, YOU don't have to worry about YOUR estate. As if you have anything other than that double wide trailer.

"It will give people more control over the care they receive," Mr. Blumenauer said in an interview. "It means that doctors and patients can have these conversations in the normal course of business, as part of our health care routine, not as something put off until we are forced to do it."

The postings of negative remarks about this story fall into two camps: (1) Those who are too ignorant to understand the difference between voluntary health care planning and "death panels" and (2) Those who are so irretrievably opposed to President Obama that they will twist virtually story into a complete falsehood in order to support their obvious hatred. No one will be euthanized. No one will be put to death. No one even has to participate in the health care counseling.

This type of counseling has always been available. In my mother's case she chose, with the support of my father and advise from the medical community, to spend her last days in a hospice rather than to die at home or in an intensive care ward. I'm sure that Sarah Palin and Glenn Beck can (and will) twist that situation into some Nazi or Socialist or anti-American death camp, just as they have done in the past .... but they are be wrong and the people who continue to believe their lies are fools. Glenn and Sarah don't even believe that stuff themselves when they say it, yet they have their loyal following. Why?

Oh, it is worth mentioning that there are some private insurance companies from which one can purchase "long-term elder care" policies...but those are really not affordable by many seniors. Everybody dies, and the end stages are expensive and uncomfortable for many. Most do not just go to bed and die in their sleep. Most experience debilitating pain and die inch by inch. Those who have extended care policies are much more comfortable at the end because they can afford it. It should be available to all, hence the need for Medicare to cover it. It's pretty simple. We all die at some point.

Elizabeth D. Wickham, executive director of LifeTree, which describes itself as “a pro-life Christian educational ministry,” said she was concerned that end-of-life counseling would encourage patients to forgo or curtail care, thus hastening death.

It's not "care" honey, when you are gasping in pain from your terminal cancer, with no hope of survival. You WANT to die, or have your loved one pass, as smoothly as possisble.

These bible-thumpers would get arrested for treating an animal like they would like to, but a human - Well, OK!!

WHY the politicians listen to the "Pain-for-ever, and ever, hallaeluja" advocates is beyond me. It's like listening to the Gestapo on how to treat the Jews.

I AM NOT an Obama fan, but this makes more sense than anything else out there.

"Brad-2092941......Are you saying that your doctor or your parents doctor(s) won't talk to you or them about this unless medicare pays them extra ???....Time for a new Doctor"

Doctorsare working for a living and expect to be paid for their time. If all you want is a ten minute conversation and a few pamphlets then they may do that for free but if you expect and in-depth conversation and time to ask intelligent questions about your care options then you better be prepared to pay for that, especially from doctors who are serving large numbers of indigent or medicare patients for which they don't get a lot of payment in the first place. We often forget that these rules are not being setup only for those of us out in suburbia with good medical plans and who may already have some knowledge of their options.

Doctor: "Do you have an end of life plan?"

Patient: "No."

Doctor: "OK."

Then doc sends a bill to Medicare.

Absolutely nothing wrong with talking with your doctor about end of life care, advance directives, etc. I think that should be part of the standard care that doctors should be providing already - not something they need to be paid extra for.

Are you saying that your doctor or your parents doctor(s) won't talk to you or them about this unless medicare pays them extra ???....Time for a new Doctor

Mike in Delray, how many times have you put off doing something because there was an extra cost? This would do away with that particular roadblock. Right now, the talk with the doctor would cost extra and so it's easy to see how many folks would forego it. Especially when they have all the other costs weighing so heavily on them.

Are you saying that your doctor or your parents doctor(s) won't talk to you or them about this unless medicare pays them extra ???....Time for a new Doctor

Mike, in case you hadn't figured this out, medicine is a business. Most geriatric doctors are carrying huge patient loads, and it's difficult for them to carve out the time to talk to their patients about end-of-life care without suffering financial losses. A GOOD discussion can take an hour or more of a doctor's time- so why shouldn't he be able to be paid for it?

Yet another Newsvine discussion to encourage Paranoid Obamaphrenia.

Fact Check: http://factcheck.org/2009/07/false-euthanasia-claims/

This was debunked as long time ago, but facts never get in the way of the delusional right wing to blather and bloviate on against Obama.

FACT (not a Rushbot talking point) - if you personally have not made arrangements for the event of your death (writing a will, inheritance, etc...) the state will have to step in to resolve issues. No one likes that and the delusional right wing would flip out about big government.

So how do you prevent that from happening?

"Chain e-mail: On Page 425 of Obama’s health care bill, the Federal Government will require EVERYONE who is on Social Security to undergo a counseling session every 5 years with the objective being that they will explain to them just how to end their own life earlier. Yes…They are going to push SUICIDE to cut medicare spending!!!"

BS LIES!!! But that is the daily diet of the delusional right wing, hook-line-and sinker.

The only thing akin to 'death panels' I've seen is the result of two Republican Governors, in AZ and IN, who have cut budgets and ordered certain procedures not to be covered by MEDICAID.

Repeat: REPUBLICAN GOVERNORS

obama has no right to play God. I realize he thinks he is Omnipotent, I have no respect for this man and no use for his moral or ethical values and the worst thing is that he doesn't care what I care about.

Oh, it is worth mentioning that there are some private insurance companies from which one can purchase "long-term elder care" policies...but those are really not affordable by many seniors.

Long-term care policies aren't just available to seniors. The company that I used to work for made such policies (offered by AFLAC) available to all employees. If you start the policy when you're younger and healthier, it's considerably more affordable. And if you, at a fairly young age, happen to fall victim to a catastrophic illness or accident that necessitates extensive care, the policy will cover it. I'm sure many companies besides AFLAC offer policies, and you probably can tailor the policy to the level of care you think you might need. Just as it makes sense to start making end-of-life planning decisions at a young age, it also is sensible to look into long-term care coverage. You never know when you could be in an accident and be paralyzed for life.

The ignorance of so many of these posts is pitiable. End of life planning should always be done while a person is mentally fit so they have a say in whether to prolong their life through extraordinary measures or not. Both my father and mother made these decisions while healthy and it gave us great comfort in knowing that we were following their wishes when they were ill. Those stupid enough to claim these are death panels are just looking for something to be disagreeable about. And their stupidity is overwhelming.

SpoxLogic and VickiC-2653645.....How about a 1-page questionaire when one signs up for Social Security/Medicare. You should know by retirement age what you would or wouldn't want done. It becomes Page One of your Medicare Records....Any Medicare Doctor/Hospital anywhere can access it. Change your mind about something.....update your Page One.

This once a year consultation is just a multi-million dollar pay-off to the Doctors, so fewer of them stop seeing Medicare patients.

And vwterry.....Obama doesn't bring anyone into the WhiteHouse that doesn't have the same mindset. They are there to accomplish the Presidents Agenda. So, between Dr.Zeke and Dr.Berwick (Healthcare is by definition redistribution of wealth) head of Medicare and Medicaid...connect those 2 dots...pretty much tells you all you need to know.

Sarah was/is full of sh*t. So is Beck and Limbaugh.

Everyone should make known to their doctors or get in writing, exactly what they want regarding "end of life treatment".

Do you trust others in your family to make the decision you want, after you are unable to communicate anymore?

This bill just allows the "end of life" care discussions/doctor consultations to be covered/included in medical plans.

How dense do you have to be, to equate that with "death panels"?

If anything, individuals will be their own "death panel", and be asked to make decisions ahead of time and while they are coherent.

The bill doesn't say that doctors or insurance companies will be the ones making "end of life" decisions for patients, although some like to ASSume it does.

It is amazing to me that end of life issues are such a huge deal for people. I do not agree that doctors should be paid to chat with people about end of life wishes. We should do this at the DMV just like we do with organ donation. A person SHOULD be able to indicate whether or not they want to be euthanize (which is the most compassionate way to deal with people who want to end their life and exactly the same way we deal with less cognizant animals than people), not have extreme measures taken or to indicate that a person wants everything possible done to prolong their life. This does not have to be a big deal and no one should make any money off if it. I don't understand all the emotion about this. Seems like it should be a pretty simple thing.

al:

every person's "end of life" situation is different. some are in more pain, some in less pain. some are conscious, some comatose. some are forced to make their decision at a young age.

some have a chance at recuperating, while others have almost zero chance.

You can't foresee the exact situation you will be in when close to dying, that's why it's best to not just make it a DMV form signing decision early in life.

It's good to make a basic plan now, but be able to discuss things as our medical situations change(for better or worse). That is why the doctors should regularly ask older(and those with life threatening medical problems) patients if they want any changes made to their "end of life care" plans.

My dad decided to starve to death, instead of having painful shunts implanted when he was terminal. He also decide against any further surgery. I would have gone with the surgery, if I knew there wasn't any other hope for me. It was hard enough to watch my dad die without life support. I can see where the family members of terminally ill patients might not make the decisions their loved ones want(out of fear/pain of watching them die).

It's best that the doctor and patient discuss "end of life" care often enough and when approaching that point.

It's not simple. You have to go through it with a loved one you don't want to lose, to understand. Otherwise you might not get it.

If you take a lie, and repeate it enough times, it will become a belief, with more power than truth, because it is taken to heart by the faithful.

So, just as the inquisition was something those with faith brought with good intentions, the evil they were fighting were really only innocent people.

Mike in Delray...

QUIT YOUR DAMN LIES.!!!

Quite a few years ago I watched a program where the government was ran by people 25 to 45 years old, any one over that age was consider to be useless.

People with handicaps and the “elderly” were “disposed” of by the government in “human disposal unites” because of the drain on the resources they caused.

Funny how that was just a movie, but it sure seems that things are running in that direction anymore, we have become a “disposable nation”, so if some doctor decides that you would be better off dead than alive, your gone.

Just like the movie, that could include handicapped people who cannot work, elderly who are no longer considered “viable” to society but rather a “drain on resources”.

Maybe Hollywood has a better grip on thing that we know, “Death Panels” you say?, sounds like a good name for any group of people who decide whether you are better off dead or alive.

As a retired nurse, I've seen it ALL ways-familial, professionally, & emotionally. How many times have you heard a beloved family member say that they don't want to "be hooked up to tubes" & left in limbo to eventually die-ANYWAY?

I can't stress long enough or hard enough that EVERYONE SHOULD have an Advance Directive spelling out what you do & do NOT want done. Nothing is perfect, but you will have a much better chance of not "lingering" & in MY opinion, dying the way your maker wanted you to go. I personally find it obscene to try to defy the will of God when well-trained & compassionate medical professionals believe that your time on earth is very limited. This is essentially why Hospice was begun in England so many yrs. ago now. I've worked Hospice & now I'm a volunteer. It will be in my new Advance Directive I'm writing for this yr. as it will for my husband. You will never receive any better care if it is at all possibly to have Hospice AND you won't be run financially into ruin having their assistance.

I ever had any trouble with a DNR ( Do Not Resuscitate) on a chart of a patient because with an advance directive, I knew that was what they wanted.

I would much rather have a little "end of life counseling" than endure the real "DEATH PANELS" Like CIGNA! Or maybe we should discuss Arizona's RICH RIGHT WING PUKES just simply telling you to die because they want to keep every thing the have STOLEN from the WORKING CLASS in this country! Glen Beck is the one of the BIGGEST DUMB FUX I've ever seen! Second only to "RUSH LARD ASS"! WHAT A PIG!!!!! Maybe he should push his fat a$$ away from the buffet once in a while! And the poor , pathetic, no life jacka$$es that follow his fat a$$ to the horsh$t bag couldn't even generate ONE brain cell between them.

I wouldn't be as disturbed as I am if this conversation was strictly between my personal MD and me, but when the bureaucrats of Washington DC, including the supreme bureaucrat of all, our current POTUS, is thrown into the mix, God help us all.

What's even worse is that Obama, despite his usual bs "transparency" rap, is deviously shoving this through the back door without Congressional approval, as he is doing on many issues. Even Bush II didn't invade Iraq without the approval of Congressional Democrats.

In this regard, how is Obama different from Hugo Chavez? Even Chavez manages to manipulate his legislature. Obama doesn't have this ability, so he circumvents Congress to achieve his "1984" agenda. Let's see how this strategy develops. I used to believe that Obama's impeachment, as was the case with Clinton, would be against our national interest and that he should just serve out the rest of his term. Now I'm not so sure. An orderly, constitutional process of impeachment is preferable to the riots and civil disorder that occurs in many other places of the world.

The alarmists are all missing the point. The government bureaucracy is not getting into your business. They are merely letting Medicare pay for the consultation. And it is simply that -- a consultation between doctor and patient.

If you put the emotion aside for a few minutes, the doctors are not going to recommend killing grandma. In fact, it is in the doctor's and hospital's favor to keep people alive, even if it means sustaining them on machines for months or years if Medicare will pay for it.

I saw both my parents and my brother in the care of Hospice. Being able to decide whether they wanted "heroic" measures to keep them alive was a choice they were able to make with their doctor's support. My brother, who had terminal cancer, put me in charge of making sure he DID NOT get chemotherapy. He just wanted to die with dignity.

So please take politics out of this discussion and look at it for what it is: A valuable opportunity for people to take charge of their own end-of-life measures. By allowing Medicare to pay the doctors, then others beside the rich can make the same choices.

bicfj... You wrote" This article describes health care allocation through the lifespan of a person."

If that were true, the graph would look like AlGore's Climate Hockey Stick....going straight up at the end....

Ummm...NO....The graph illustrates how health care dollars should be spent.....very little on the very young and old, because they do not produce service or taxes. The majority of available health care dollars "should" be spent on those most capable of producing. You may not understand that. What they are saying is that money spent on an expensive procedure on a very sick infant would be better spent on a worker and get him back to work...After 55 according to the graph, you get less and less of the available healthcare dollars. Single Payor rationing of Healthcare is what Dr. Berwick, the head of Medicare and Medicaid is all about.

Next you wrote "Instead of concluding as the article does you go into a rant about right wing death panels and unplugging grandma from her life support system, all with the encouragement and direction of the Federal Government."

Never did I go on any kind of rant....No mention of Death Panels or pulling the plug on Grandma. I have an opinion of what is going on based on what I see and read. You may not come to the same conclusion, but to call me a liar by lying about what I said.....is lying...isn't it ???

V. Bevis: If I understand your comment, are you saying that end-of-life decisions are those of an individual and not of Washington politicians and lobbyists? If I have had a Living Will now for many years, how does that differ from Advance Directive? When you bring the UK into the discussion, I get very scared. It wasn't just by mere accident that Orwell was a Brit, you know. I think that 1984 has finally arrived--26 years late but still here. And God help us all.

Modern Healthcare: I don't need you or Obama or any of the rest of the arrogant, bureaucratic elitists who now control national policy to tell me to write a Living Will. What an insult to my intelligence. Who the hell do you people think you are?

Mike in Delray: I'm proud to still be your Newsvine buddy. Greetings from the frigid north of St. Augustine. Hope you're all warm and cozy down there. Pray for us and for the delicate palms that we probably shouldn't even have in the first place.

Patrick: Grannyburgers, eh? I saw that movie with Charlton Heston and EGR. Disturbing but thought provoking all the same. Hopefully, the local Publix will at least place a little tombstone with my name on the patties when my neighbors find them in the case. It will make me feel so much better. Do you think that I should include this in my Living Will? Do I have to mention the name of the specific supermarket? Please advise.

spike: fuggetabout end-of-life. Who is paying for all of those latinas coming here illegally to drop their "precious little packages" on our doorsteps? Tell me that! Send the bill to Governor Moonbeam? Like bad Mexican food, he keeps "comin' up".

Waterdog49...Merry Christmas and Happy New Year....Palms are looking a little distressed

"Mr. Franklin, what have you given us" .. "A Republic, Ma'am, if you can keep it"

The Price of Liberty is Eternal Vigilance.......

"A recent poll by the Kaiser Family Foundation suggests that the idea of death panels persists. In the September poll, 30 percent of Americans 65 and older said the new health care law allowed a government panel to make decisions about end-of-life care for people on Medicare. The law has no such provision."

Of course, what's not mentioned is that the "panels" WILL decide whether the procedures will be covered by insurance, and if not, the patient will die, unless thay happen to be a millionaire.

Obama has always been good at 'parsing words' (as was Bill Clinton in his infamous "It depends on what your definition of 'is' is".

The real death panels are the insurance companies that decide what treatments they'll pay for and what they won't. If you think they care about your Grandma, you are most deceived.

A simple consultation between doctors,(who will just be following orders),and their patients......yeah,Old Nazi's are probably kicking themselves and saying "When we were in charge of our country,If only we had used the term " end of life plan" for our troublesome population, instead of "the final solution", we might have fooled everyone too"."Auch Tung! Before your "consultation", please remove all your valuables,(taxation is so much simpler whwn you can just take everything all at once), und step into ze showers, you vill need no soap und no towels!"Our final solution to the Democrats will have to be at the ballot box in 2012,(Hold on Grandma!).

End of life planning with a doctor is a misnomer, unless a person has an identifiable condition which will likely end his/her life and wants to understand the progression of his/her disease.

The PLANNING is something to be discussed with a lawyer (or done independently) to complete an advance directive.

Giving false names to policies/legislation almost always implies other motives.

Obama continues to circumvent congress. He also speaks from both sides of his mouth. Remember when the death panel conversations first happened and he said he wouldn't kill granny? This is nothing more that government rationing of healthcare, despite what the spin is. The conversation should be between the family, the individuals and then the doctor.

Read between the lines and then go look at who is going to run Obamacare, seems the little fellow is a bit of a radical...Those of you who think that this is benign and guaranteed to help the elderly better guess again, it is eugenics cloaked in the usual doublespeak of 'helping'

Just in... Obama names Dr. Jack Kevorkian as his health care Czar,

Dr Jack states that he has a plan to get costs under control.

"obama has no right to play God. I realize he thinks he is Omnipotent, I have no respect for this man and no use for his moral or ethical values and the worst thing is that he doesn't care what I care about."

This leaves me totally amazed at the ignorance of some people. You don't respect the POTUS because he wants people to have the opportunity to plan out the course of their own lives? Or is it that you are the kind who buries their head in the sand and thinks that you will comfortably die in your sleep? How sad for you and your "moral and ethical values".

As usual, ingnorance by the right is used to try to make the left look bad. Fortunately, the elderly (of which I am one) can not get intelligent information about their later years and how to elect of reject treatment, instead of having some conservative politician (or in Palin's case a politician wannabe) telling them that they can't have that information and to just die without knowing you have options, like a living will.

SARA was telling the truth!!!

That Jezebel wouldn't know the truth(and neither would you) if it up and slapped her silly. Lying is so common for you people that you're beyond hope. Seriously.

slippery, who/what is keeping you from being informed, now, without government guidance?

Ha,HA,HA,HA; and you people thought your opinion counted , sheep to the slaughter !

So basically when you choose to talk to your doctor about your options, you don't have to pay for that hard talk. How is THAT a death panel?

This has NOTHING to do with death panels or the government making decisions for you.

All this does is pay a doctor if YOU DECIDE you want to discuss YOUR end-of-life preferences.

This is just things like, "I want this family member to make decisions for me if I'm unable" and "I don't want machines to keep me alive if there is no hope of recovery".

It has nothing to do with anyone deciding if you live or die except YOU or if you're unable, the person YOU appoint.

That's it! If you stop trying to apply ridiculous conspiracy theories to it, you'll realize IT"S A GOOD THING!

If you're against death panels, then you should be in favor of the Affordable Care Act, because it bans the REAL death panels that insurance companies have used for years to deny payments for life-saving treatments that they decide are too costly if they can find any reason to do so, no matter how trivial.

And then you'll protest the Republican death panel that Gov. Brewer set up in Arizona to deny organ transplants so she can use the money on projects that will benefit her campaign contributors.

Modern Healthcare

#1.2 - I think the misinterpretation is intentional to fuel the fire. Some people behave as if advanced directives is something new, well maybe it is for them, but as a former healthcare worker and like yourself, we know they are not new, this is an attempt to make more people aware of options, an effort to get people in the mind frame of advance planning, the only thing certain in life is death and that is something we all should plan for. No one is forcing anyone to do anything, not like Arizona Governor Brewer who is actively denying people organ transplants, One case which really comes to mind is a man who was donated a liver by a family member and the Arizona Governor and legislature denied him that organ for political reasons. Now that is direct govermental intrusion in the people's lives moreso than " Advising " individuals of end of live alternatives in the form of advanced directives which is a humane approach...

Physicians - whether or not paid already talk about options to people. I know - having had several week long stays in Hospitals in the last 5 years. They only do those things when people are clearly in danger of death in the near future. People simply do not want to even think about it until they recieve the final "death sentence" and many not even then. FORCING people to make a decision before hand is a waste of time and money. Besides, the correct place to discuss end of life matters is with your loved ones and your lawyer over such matters. Don't burden a medical staff with the problem, they have plenty enough problems to deal with.

Not ALL physicians give their patients advanced directives, this gives them an incentive. It's unfortunate it comes down to the all mighty buck but humans usually respond when a dollar is involved.... Please explain how this is FORCING people to make a decision before hand. As far as "a waste of time and money", that is for the individual to decide... Not you....

No way! The US government wanting to kill people off. What a shock! I can't believe this! To bad people can't die with honor and dignity like they used to.

Our wonderful "progressive/secular" society. Next chapter - Soylent Green.

dadoftim "Just in... Obama names Dr. Jack Kevorkian as his health care Czar,
Dr Jack states that he has a plan to get costs under control."

Very funny. Thanks, I needed a good laugh.

How is end-of-life discussions/planning equated to the government wanting to kill people off? This is about allowing people to die with dignity. My Mom passed away in July and luckily she and I put together her advance directive just a few months earlier.

Without it, my heart-broken Dad would have done anything to keep her alive - even for just a few more days. This was not what she wanted.

This is a stressful time for families and it's good that these conversations will be had during regular meetings with your doctor.

Actually, people are confusing two completely different issues;
1 - End of life planning using an advance medical directive, which is a good idea, since everyone should make their own decisions on this matter, and make them known.
2 - Government panels that will determine who will receive possible life-saving treatments (based on cost), and who will be told, in the words of soon to be EX-Congressman Grayson (D) of Florida, to "Die Quickly". This is where the issue of "Death Panels" comes in, where some government appointed panel will make these decisions for people, likely based on a concept similar to QALY.

WaterDog - "Modern Healthcare: I don't need you or Obama or any of the rest of the arrogant, bureaucratic elitists who now control national policy to tell me to write a Living Will. What an insult to my intelligence. Who the hell do you people think you are?"

Hence why it is OPTIONAL:

- Those who dont want to discuss end of life care do not have to

- Those who want to codify their end of life plans are free to do so (and have it paid for by the Medicare they contributed to).

THAT IS LIBERTY!!!

Crow? I seem to have a will which indicates if I am to be resuscitated etc. And it was created before Obama. Beck didn't have anything to do with it except maybe he has no contact with real life and what older people have been doing for years. I was in the hospital recently and have had numerous tests and you have no idea what happens with the money exchanged. None. Everyone should get sick at least once to see for themselves. The ones getting ripped off big, big, big time is those without insurance. Obama fixed that so waaaaaah!

A living will pretty much covers your wishes near death. My step-father was on 100% life support for 35 days. Finally, his kidneys failed and that ended it. His final bill in total was $360,000. Medicare and Medicare supplement virtually paid for all of it. My mother had a living will and I turned it in on a Mon. By Wed., she was gone. She requested no life support of any type and, try as I may to get around it, I couldn't do anything. Her final bill was maybe 50-$60,000. As most folks stated, no insurance and they will go after the deceased estate. GOT TO HAVE insurance!!!!! Another point learned the hard way. Auto insurance! They can blow right past your policy limits, get your house, car, and everything else you own. I jacked my policy up to the max.

Seems the "Naysaying Nit-wits" are once again puking on common sense. Most rational people will find this service comforting and rewarding.I've said it before, but it demands repeating; the biggest threat to this country is IGNORANCE AND STUPIDITY. That state of being is compounded, when those afflicted, take pride in their predicament!!!

Thank you President Obama for your LEADERSHIP on this matter! And thank God, common sense once again prevails in these United States; you betcha,wink wink...

#1.54 Waterdog49: Essentially a "living Will" IS an Advance Directive." It's just an argument of word usage. You can get them almost anywhere in any hospital. Ask for the head of Medical Social Work's office, & you can ask for one there. Read it carefully. NOTHING IS DONE THAT YOU DO NOT WANT! Just make sure that it is in good hands for future keeping & give it to someone you KNOW WILL follow the written wishes you desire. I am sorry you know so little about Hospice. The criteria for their help is a doctor's statement that you only have @ 6 months to live altho. they won't "throw you out" if you live longer. The record here is 3 ys. & my Aunt in another State lived 3 yrs. also. What you essentially do is to sign over your Medicare Benefits & they agree to accept them as payment. I'm not sure how it is set up for those who are younger. Then care begins, usually with the following:

1.) A hospital bed brought into the home along with other needed medical appliances.

2.) Professionals assigned to your "case." That includes, social workers, nurses, aides for personal care. Each case is different, but a Plan of Care is worked out for the necessary care, keeping in mind that it can & most likely WILL be readjusted as the patient declines. Regular monitoring of patient progress is reviewed regularily by this TEAM, working as a team.

3.) There is a Primary Caregiver, usually a spouse or a child who does the day-to-day care such as feeding, assisting in walking, minor things such as washing the patient's face, helping them brush their teeth, etc. It is VERY individual based.

4.) In some places, usually in big cities, where Hospice has residence homes, people can go there & be taken care of much like in a nursing home, but with a much different focus as to their Plan of Care from a regular nursing home. Also, some places, mine included here, have a small wing of a hospital remodeled & designed for "respite" care for family care-givers. If one wants to go attend a wedding, the patient can be left here for up to 5 days. It is a lovely area with a homey-feel to the rooms, a couch/bed for care-givers to spend the night if needed, a kitchen for family to keep food for the patient or them in, & a Nurse's Station in the middle. It also can be used to adjust a patient's meds. esp. if in a great amt. of pain.

I wish I could send a brochure to everyone on this thread @ Hospice. Let's face it; none of us REALLY thinks @ death until we either have a loved one who is dying or we start to get older & begin to realize that we aren't immortal. (lol) PLEASE ! PLEASE ! Investigate the wonderful care they provide. This IS a very specialized part of medicine & knowing now what I have learned, seen & personally done myself, I wish my entire career could have been with them.

P.S. I know this is long, but I MUST mention that there is "after-care" for the families including group care with others who have lost their loved ones too.

Why every year? The doctors get reimburse every year for this conversation.

My father had a massive stroke and in his will he stated no live support and that's what he got.

Leave the government out of it. Get a Will or Living Trust.

Why did they sneak it back in. Why are they sending emails to keep it on the down low?

This is Obama and his adminstration doing the same old, and they wonder why Nov 2nd happen.

This country is near total bankruptcy medical expense is a large expenditure and getting larger every minute. It's absolutely rediculous to spned hundred of thousands of collars on million of the very old and/or incurable sufferers whose death is assured by their conitions. In most cases those big dollars are spent prolonging pain and misery; who in their right mind wants that for themselves or loved ones.

Americans need to man up and face the reality and necessity of death and spend most of the health care dollars we will see in the future on the young and people who have a chance for healing and quality of life.

If you are worried about your inheritance or estate, it would be wise to make sure to have end of life planning for everyone in your family. Long-term care policies are a good idea too, unless you feel you want to just spend down and let the government pay through medicaid like to many millions are doing while decrying the evil of social programs and taking advantage or every one of them they can.

Um... wake up! We have had death panels for years before reform, this is why fixing health care has been debated for many years and by many presidents. Our current system is broken because of lobbyists, health providers and for profit insurance companies. The death panels are the insurance companies who profit from death and denied claims, it's even a mystery because it isn't publicly available.

Are health insurance companies generally being fair and honest when they reject claims from policy holders?

That would seem to be an important question in deciding how best to fix the U.S. health system. But it hasn't been a focus of the raging health-care debate -- possibly because the answer is not publicly available.

At least someone can see it needs fixing, but having death discussed is bad as it was when the new president wanted to speak in front of a classroom of kids? Does the bill say it won't be providing care or that they can get decent treatment still? Will Kevorkian be available if requested for a humane death or will the right to lifers who aren't making comments on this come around then?

Na... we don't need health care fixed at all. Do we? Works great when you get sick or get in an accident and have to declare bankruptcy with for profit insurance policy's in hand.

Being on the same page as many others, I too believe that it's everyone's responsibility to have such documentation with your primary doc and hospital anyways; you really don't need anyone to tell you so, if you do, well....

This can easily be printed out at home, forms found online, given to your doc at no cost at your next visit. It's one thing to advertise the need for these directives, it's another to advertise it as some form of legislation and/or political garnership.

For all the garbage reality shows and the like on TV, you'd think they'd find some spots for how and why this is important, educating people instead of turning it political. It's more important to have a doctor that's willing to talk to you about this if you need some advice than to force any doc to through pay/legislation; if your doctor won't as your doctor, you may want to consider finding a better doctor.....

It's sticky because of the debate of care reform and coverage reform.

Competition across state lines would be a great start, as prices would become competitive, but without proper legislation accompanying it, the danger of an all powerful, later to be abusive corporo-monopoly could take over and later abuse.... this is what people fear about government getting their foot in the door. Having a limitless money supply, they could become the abusers, and have with other things financial.

For several reasons, including lack of tort reforms, abuses by insurance companies where, as on Fallstreet, they wish to always show gains, gains, gains, - doctors are being told to give patient X just so many minutes, then on to the next. Having worked in several hospitals and talking to many patients, this is the problem with the care end. That, and groups of doctors now are more prevalent, and 'your' doctor may not even know you well at all.

Doctors will tend to do as they're told, since they didn't go to 12 years of med school to be booted for not adhering to policy (and it's happened to several I know of, hence the 'grouping' rather than individual practice.... spread the costs). That brings together both the problems of care and coverage, since most docs will again watch out for themselves and theirs, not wanting to make less and less money. So, they're watching closely as well to all that's transpiring or may.

Bottom line, as I've said before, this isn't being addressed properly, extremes are generally used to get point A or B across when really it comes down to starting points, logical inexpensive starting points as mentioned earlier in this post, and moving along from there.

Too much to expect from any Congress in the past 3 or 4 decades, I suppose.....

Not Soylent Green - Logan's Run is, I think, the better parallel.

The point of this post is not to comment on the appropriateness of these “end of life” directives (i.e. Death panels) but to further illustrate the deception of chairman Obama and his cronies. When these directives first surfaced, to suppress the outrage, Obama went on TV and assured the people these death panels were a figment of some peoples imaginations and were absolutely not in his healthcare plan. Furthermore all his propaganda media buddies continued their blitz by criticizing and mocking any who would state otherwise.

Now, we find out these end of life death panels were part of the plan all along and all Obama did was to conceal it better until now, that is.

Obama is a true committed socialist and as such, lying to achieve one’s end is a perfectly acceptable practice in the socialist mindset.

Not Soylent Green - Logan's Run is, I think, the better parallel.

Uh oh, and here I am a Red 7.

Obama went on TV and assured the people these death panels were a figment of some peoples imaginations and were absolutely not in his healthcare plan.

Now, we find out these end of life death panels were part of the plan all along and all Obama did was to conceal it better until now, that is.

No, death panels are still a figment of your own deranged imagination, end of life planning with a doctor is not a death panel.

It's like ordering a cheeseburger with no tomatoes, and complaining when it has pickles, because you think pickles are "tomatoes". The cheeseburger doesn't have tomatoes, you just don't know what a tomato is.

And libs talk about re-elcting this fool...Altogether now ,,Glen Beck and Sarah Palin,,,you were right!!! Hey libs you do know you have people in this administration that favor eugenics ? Libs are proof that you can fool half the people 100% of the time

How is promoting patient autonomy and input into their care taking away their rights or promoting earlier deaths? One can just as easily state that they want every aggressive and extreme option taken. Or they can opt for no extreme measures. Or they can opt for any level in between.

I thought the right was for individual responsibility and liberty. What is more responsible than planning for future possibilities? Or should this only be allowed for those that can pay for it out of pocket?

lol, eugenics, Bill? Name ONE. I DARE you. And then you can explain how that has anything to do with the article.

"Now, we find out these end of life death panels were part of the plan all along and all Obama did was to conceal it better until now, that is."

Uh, no. You obviously have not read the plan OR the article you're commenting on. Like so many others on this thread with a similar opinion.

"Obama is a true committed socialist and as such, lying to achieve one’s end is a perfectly acceptable practice in the socialist mindset."

Oh noes, not a socialist! So socialists are liars, too. Guess that makes Beck and Limbaugh socialists. How is this plan socialist? Be specific.

God, are you "death panel" people really that stupid, or do you just want to stir up the ignorant masses? Anybody who has dealt with a loved one with a terminal illness knows how important it is to understand their options. Most people would prefer to die peacefully at home, and hospice can help the entire family. It really pisses me off to hear the blatant lies surrounding this issue. It is not a death panel, it is about getting critical information to those who will deal with end of life issues.

When my time comes it will be my family who has the information that will determine what is done with me at what stage.

It really pisses me off to hear the blatant lies surrounding this issue.

It pisses me off too. Between;

Forced onto the defensive, Mr. Obama said that nothing in the bill would “pull the plug on grandma.”

And

Maybe it's time for Grandma to just take the pain pill.

Which do you suppose is the lie? If someone decides that Grandma just needs to take a pain pill until she dies because her condition at her age is not cost effective to treat, is that a death panel. I see to much government control in this issue. It is none of government's or Obama's business. There is nothing humane in play here. It's all a matter of cutting costs and manipulating future elections. There are just too many conservative boomers, don't you think? If this isn't the case,why did they need to hide it. The Democratic way to legislative success?

There is NOTHING in thisa proposal that "rations" health care for the elderly, or condemns the sick to death. I do, however, deplore the following exchange as reported in the article:

“Thus far, it seems that no press or blogs have discovered it, but we will be keeping a close watch and may be calling on you if we need a rapid, targeted response. The longer this goes unnoticed, the better our chances of keeping it.”

In the interview, Mr. Blumenauer said, “Lies can go viral if people use them for political purposes.”

Once again, the "bunker mentality" induced by ill-informed opponents and just plain unreasonable permanent enemies of the President brought public authorities to act with apparently furtive methods and hope they wouldn't be found out. That is an inexcusable approach to development and implementation of ANY public p[olicy.

The actual program is intelligent and helpful. It is a positive use of public funds and improves quality of life for people in their end days.

Any of us who have tried to speak with reluctant parents or relatives about such things as wills or advance medical directives knows how difficult those conversations are. And most of us are woefully unprepared to intelligently make those decisions for ourselves.

Regardless of the regrettable "stealth" approach to this action, it is in the national interest and is a humane approach to medical care.

You know, just reading the majority of the post on this first set, it simply astounds me at just how little people know and understand, and how far they are letting their ignorance carry them. I for one an all for the government paying for end of life care discussions. You "death panel" people don't get it. You don't even get the concept of doctor/patient confidentiality. Having had to elderly relatives, that were on Medicare pass away within a year of each other. I am very glad that they had those end of life discussions, so that we knew what they wanted to do when the time came. For one, it ultimately was a moot point, because she was slowly losing her lung functionality, and it doesn't matter what they did, nothing would have kept her alive, because her body wasn't able to bring in oxygene. She, fortunately passed peacefully. The other, however suffered a stroke, and laid out what he wanted us to do in the event he did not recover. And he the relatives, not the doctors, not the government, decided when the time was right to pull the plug, and we the relatives obeyed those wishes. This is not about whether or not to end a life. It is about when to try and preserve that life, or when to let it go, about when try treatments, and when to hold back. The government is not trying to kill grandma, contrary to what the right wing nuts believe(they won't allow the citizens to bill their insurance company for end of life care, but by god they are more than willing to allow the insurance companies decide when to pull the plug. A little bit of hypocrasy there if you ask me. Unless your Jan Brewer.), the government doesn't make the call, your proxies do, by way of your wishes, from an informed consultation you had with your medical professional.

DrDrGimmetheNews

"How is this plan socialist?" HA!

How is it not socialist? Can you tell me what socialist country does not have a simular plan in place? Be specific.

"HA!" Informative response. Or not.

How is it not socialist? Well, socialism is "a political theory advocating state ownership of industry" which this plan does not. And whether socialist countries have a similar plan in place does not make this a socialist plan. I imagine socialist countries also have flags and national anthems, as we do, but having those things in common does not make the US socialist.

but having those things in common does not make the US socialist

If it walks like a duck, looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, that's what it is. Obama is a Socialist/Communist and saying it isn't so changes nothing. To change what he is requires action on his part. It's not going to happen.

A few days before my mom passed away she told me: " There'sa a difference between doing something that prolongs your life and something that just postpones your death." Wise woman. This would allow that discussion to take place w/o it some quack doctor could prolong massive pain just to make a buck -- ever look at an itemized hosptial bill? We have technlogy that doesn't cure but can lengthen suffering. How is that humane? A person's body is saying please let me go -- in a Christian sense God is saying I want your soul back -- please let him have it.

A few days before my mom passed away she told me: " There'sa a difference between doing something that prolongs your life and something that just postpones your death." Wise woman.

I am in complete agreement on that issue. But, tell me what is in this regulation that would prevent "some quack doctor" from doing exactly what you say worries you. If you think the government is the answer to fraud then you must already be leaning toward dementia.

I have one name for all the republicans on here going nuts about government intervention in their lives. Teri Schavio, remember her?? This is the woman who was paraded around in the media because she had been a vegetable for 7-10 years and the husband wanted to take her off life support and the family didn't. Well guess who came racing in to intervene and tell an American citizen how to handle an end of life situation, the republicans. The poor lady was about to die in peace and the republicans, without even seeing the lady presonally, made them put her feeding tube back in and extended her vegetable life another couple weeks. If Teri would have had end of life counseling her wishes could have been carried out, instead she is the center of a political battle. I understand that republicans are hypocrites but this one takes the cake. Is this what the republicans want to see more of?? I just don't get these people.

Terry Schavio has nothing to do with this situation. The husband said let her die. Her family said no, right or wrong. The husband sued and won. It was my understanding he saved lots of money by stopping her health care or lack there of. The Republicans felt the family had a right to continue her maintenance and I agree if they or the insurance company was footing the bill. If Schavio had a will that said what her preference was then that was the end of it. If not, her spouse and her parents certainly had the right to intervene at their own expense. It's still none of Obama's or government's business. If this is such a great thing, why do the Dems hide it?

Blue collar - I don't even know how to reply to that statement. You say it's not Obama's or the government's business but then you explain why the republicans got into other people's business. So I guess when you say that, you actually mean it's not Obama's or the democrats business what people do but if it's the republicans, well I guess that's OK? You also proved my point, if Teri had done the end of life counseling her wishes would have been carried out. All the democrats are doing is funding this counseling. What's wrong with that?

The only end of life planning I need is a good talk with a CPA who can make sure Obama and the democrats get as little of my money as possible to spend.

Of course everyone should do some death planning "Modern Healthcare," that's a given. What everyone objects to is the government being given the right to decide if and when seniors get treatment! That should remain a decision between the doctor and the patient and the patient's family.

Do you really want totally disinterested strangers making your decisions?

I guess you don't want to have a say about your death huh. Apparently you want someone else to make those decisions for you!

What everyone objects to is the government being given the right to decide if and when seniors get treatment!

Well good, you got nothing to object to then, because nobody's talking about doing that.

Do you really want totally disinterested strangers making your decisions?

If you have private for-profit health insurance, total strangers are making your healthy decisions, but at least they aren't disinterested. No, they are quite interested in making money and increasing profits by finding ways to deny payments for your care. But it's a business and not the government, so that's totally okay.

bluecollar,

Which do you suppose is the lie? If someone decides that Grandma just needs to take a pain pill until she dies because her condition at her age is not cost effective to treat, is that a death panel.

This is precisely what this regulation prevents. It lets Grandma decide while she is still capable of providing input. It also lets grandson make the decision in the event of a catastrophic car accident leaving him in a coma and brain dead.

It lets the patient decide what treatments and efforts THEY wish to go through at the end of their life. Whether that end is at 20 or 120.

Unless your estate exceeds $5,000,000, there is no such "looting." If you fall in the group whose estates will owe a tax, congratulations--you are in the top 0.1% of us!

Wonderful. I guess those of us who said that the health plan needed to be published and discussed nationally (C-Span, Mr. President??) before the vote could say "I told you so", but I don't want to celebrate as long as this monstrocity is still scheduled to go into effect, complete with coverage mandates in less than 5 years !!

I hope Pelosi/Obamacare is scrapped and both parties get down to true health care reform. Nothing in this whopper of a bill does anything to help keep health care affordable. The greatest coverage in the world is no good if you can't afford the premiums !! There should have been mandates for reinsurance pools so people couldn't be denied coverage, with help for affordability where needed, instead of mandating coverage on everyone.

Tim S.-560036

quote from Obama.

Sometimes maybe grandma just needs to take the pain pill.

Does that sound like it supports choice? I could research and make a strong case here using what Obama said and the positions and beliefs of his appointees, but you would not see the light anyway.

"Obama is a Socialist/Communist and saying it isn't so changes nothing."

Just the fact that you use the terms socialist and communist as if they were interchangeable tells me you do not understand them. So let me use your rhetoric. Obama is not a socialist/communist and saying it's so changes nothing.

Obama is absolutely 100% positively a socialist.

According to whom? Besides you.

Not according to his policies or socialists or people in their right minds for that matter.

According to the things he says, his history, and his policies. I can't help it if you don't like the word or that it fits. Most socialism is accomplished through deception so I wouldn't expect his acolytes to come right out and admit it.

"According to the things he says, his history, and his policies."

Give credible links to exactly which things he has said that are socialist, but not some snippet taken out of context.

Give credible sources for his "history" and how that could possibly be socialist. Not that he once knew someone who once read a book that Glenn Beck said was socialist.

Give concrete examples and credible sources for exactly which policies are socialist and explain how they are socialist.

I'm betting you can't.

The man was steeped in Marxism from birth. Most of his words are a clever deception, but the evidence is clear. Between his communist sympathizing mother though his indoctrination in the social justice movement, to his friendships with avowed Marxists like Bill Ayers and Frank Davis, he comes from a radical leftist framework that he draws from for much of his agenda. Many of the themes of his speeches and words are clearly Marxist from his incessant class warfare to his "spread the wealth around" comments to Joe the Plumber. The man is a socialist, no doubt about it.

Again, you've hit all the right wing talking points with zero sources cited. Where is the evidence that his mother was communist sympathizing? There is none. How was he "indoctrinated in the social justice movement?" Do you even know what true (not Glenn Beck-style) social justice is? And his "friendship" with Ayers extends to being on a board with him and working at the same university. Are you responsible for the politics of EVERYONE you've ever worked with? See here: http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/he_lied_about_bill_ayers.html while Frank Davis is a poet who talked to a teenage Obama about the difficulties in growing up as a person of mixed racial heritage. See here: http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2008/aug/12/poet-advised-young-obama/ and "Dreams From My Father."

Post a credible link to an Obama speech that is Marxist and explain why it is Marxist. It is obvious you have no understanding of what class warfare is. And how does Joe the Plumber fit into your scenario?

Again, you have linked Marxism, communism, and socialism in a way that makes it evident that you do not understand that these belief systems are not interchangeable.

Again, zero sources from you, zero facts, just more right-wing rhetoric.

I already told you he doesn't make speeches about his Marxist beliefs because that kind of open presentation of his beliefs would undermine his ability to enact them. He hides much about his past. Apart from his frequent stabs at corporations and the rich, along with the occasional statement about spreading the wealth around, he doesn't say much about it. You are intentionally asking for clear, stated evidence where there is none. Instead, you have to read between the lines, look at his activities and actions, and look at the people he has associated with over the years to get a clear picture. I don't listen to Beck at all. Stanley Kurtz does a very nice job untangling much of this in his book.

Radical In Chief

Okay, so first you say, "Many of the themes of his speeches and words are clearly Marxist" and then when asked for examples, you say, "he doesn't make speeches about his Marxist beliefs because that kind of open presentation of his beliefs would undermine his ability to enact them" and "you have to read between the lines." So in other words, you have no proof and no examples, you have just "read between the lines" and made up your mind based on no specifics and no facts. It is certainly your prerogative to do so.

"look at his activities and actions," How about you give some examples of activities and actions that demonstrate Marxism or socialism as I have asked you to do previously?

"and look at the people he has associated with over the years to get a clear picture" I refuted the examples you gave above with credible sources. How about you do the same to back up your claims?

I have not read "Radical In Chief" and it is unlikely that I will do so, but here is all I needed to know about its author: "Stanley Kurtz, whose research helped inject the Bill Ayers and ACORN issues into the 2008 presidential campaign" from here: http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/233622/announcing-i-radical-chief-i-stanley-kurtz

Dudes,

You are wasting your time. Its should be an internet axiom/law akin to Godwin's.

Do not attempt to discuss anything rationally with a poster who names themselves after an Ayn Rand character.

You would prefer that decisions be made by the allmighty insurance company? Well, they are doing it already, and have been doing it for decades. Get informed.

sel- You obviously don't understand Medicare. It has never paid for end of life care, which generally is very costly, and comes out of the family's pockets. Ever have to pay 10,000 a month for hospice? Well, this provision they are adding to medicare, will cover end of life care a little more than it did before, which was NOTHING. Medicare is an INSURANCE, for medical care, that people have paid into, it is just being expanded to cover more thoroughly end of life care, which was always excluded.

End of life decisions should be up to the individual. That's what this is all about. We all have a responsibility to provide a living will and have advance directives in place. How horrible to place that burden on grieving and worried family members.

It is a choice, this article title is misleading as usual they try to make money.

This clause by the way was the republican idea to put it in the bill and than as usual they fight against it...blaming democrats..the evil republicans up to no good again...anyway it is a good idea for anyone to make this decision so you are not kept alive , brain dead with tubes...much more fun to go to the other dimension..

It depends on the situation. My father had a living will for end of life care, he also had a will, but Medicare "drops" the patient at the most vulnerable time in their lives. This too me, after going through it with an elderly father, and Medicare, sounds GREAT.

What is outrageous is people under the impression they are not going to die.

Antique Vegetables in intensive care costing billions of dollars on life support is a foolish waste of resources and unbelievably grotesque. Machines are capable of keeping people alive LONG after their natural time. This hospitals do out of normal practice. It is absolutely pointless when an 80+ year old person goes into the dying process, barely functioning anyway and hospitals try to "save" them.

The disconnect is where people are unaware of just how long procedures can drag on a process that should be allowed to takes its course. Medical science at end of live has the power to create a horrific scenario, that in the natural course of events would end with a person dying, prolonging suffering rather than alleviating it.

Resuscitation is their standard procedure, it isn't always the thing to do.

You and your "granny" are going to die. Do you want to watch someone, their personhood gone, only the shell remaining, creepily alive in flesh only wither away over the course of weeks or months when, had they not employed heroic efforts, would have been swift and merciful?

Dying is not a matter held in the hands of either a physician or the family, or even insurance cos, as you suppose. How long the remains have air blown into their lungs while all their systems shut down one by one, tubes removing gunk of a diseased and deceased body are just a few of the medical marvels that do little good. Dealing with the issues before they happen allow great and terrible emotional turmoil to be avoided. If the person themselves has lived a long and productive life, they rarely choose to have medical science create a zombie out of them, and that choice should not be in the hands of relatives who, only in the last throughs of life think they can't bare to part. And not infrequently people they gave little regard to while they were alive and in an aged state. Few doctors wish to continue aid to people who have no chance of recovery. The "talk" is for persons themselves to come to a decision of what will happen when their time comes.

BUT, doesn't mean your wishes will be followed. My mother had a DNR. She could never have wanted to be a dependent being. In a medical situation that would have resulted in death, they knew she had a DNR order and resuscitated her anyway. Comatose, and on machines, her body continued the process it had begun, but slowly. Off life support she passed in hours. The horror was the decision to "pull the plug", but it was a decision SHE made before the time came. If her wishes had been respected, she would have died quickly, not over the course of weeks and slowly.

There are those who don't "die" per se, but in vegetative states, exist. Why? They would not have, had it not been for standard procedures of medical science.

The issue is medical science can keep your corpse breathing while the essence of you is gone. People should be able to decide this themselves.

My kids have my permission to send me out on the old ice floe when I am no longer able to take care of myself.

The discussion is about end of life times, not about ending a working life. Grasp the difference.

She could never have wanted to be a dependent being. In a medical situation that would have resulted in death, they knew she had a DNR order and resuscitated her anyway

Wow, that is horrible. My dad had one too, but the hospital respected his wishes and didn't resusitate.

lea, you seem to be very misinformed! This idea is straight out of the mind of Zeke Emanual, rahms' brother and medical advisor to obama. He has clearly stated his belief of the ideal medical care plan, very simply put, 0 thru 2 years- termination should be an option because, he states, after all they have yet to develop a personality. From 2 years to 45 years the best of everything , because they are the most valuable to society. From 45 years on, decreasing coverage based on their value to society! If you agree with this then you are for this health care plan, if you don't you'de better hope that the conservatives are successful in defunding this abortion!!

Would you prefer to leave your children and spouse to fight over what to do with you should you become incapacitated? The doctors won't be making the decisions, you will. You. Not your children, mother, father, brother, sister, cousin, or whomever your nearest kin is. You. Why put that burden on others? What an inconsiderate and lazy thing to do. Good grief.

Ted-

I believe you are the one who is misinformed. For FACTUAL information about Dr. Zeke Emmanual see here http://www.cc.nih.gov/about/SeniorStaff/ezekiel_emanuel.html

Why plan for end of life care, it's much better to just foist that responsibility suddenly on your loved ones.

sel-get a clue. Nothing you are stating is what is being done. It is counseling you receive while you are healthy to determine that your wishes are followed. You are totally ignorant of what this does.

Amen to the insurace companies. Why is it the religious people sing about being there when the roll is called up yonder, but when it's their loved one, they think the medical profession can raise them from the dead. I have worked in intensive cares for over 30 years. We all die. Even Jesus on the cross. I would rather die with dignity at home than in ICU with 10 drips going and staff poking and prodding every few minutes to keep me alive. And let's not even mention at what finacial price. Since medicare picks up most the cost (read: our tax dollars), the families have no idea the $$ it is costing at futile price.

My father died at home, and now I am taking care of my dying mother at home for the same reason: dignity.

Slinger #2.2: Your info. being "spit" into the public minds is not only incendiary, but egregious to boot.

!.) Hospice accepts Medicare reimbursements as payment for care. A patient or a patient's representative ( usually a family member or spouse ) signs it over if the patient can't.

2.) You definitely need to readjust your "reality" meds.; $10,000/month for Hospice? The best nursing homes don't charge that!

Been there, done that, both professionally AND with my father 21 yrs. ago. He died with dignity with Hospice! R.N.; B.S.N.; M.S.N.

When reimbursing doctors for a consultation with a patient becomes a government death panel, when there is no panel and the government is not part of any decision it is clear that right wingers can not read and understand what they read or they are simply dishonest. Which is it Glenn Beck children? Are you dishonest or simply can't understand the documentation?

V. Bevis You need to "readjust" YOUR thinking, because Medicare does NOT have any end of life planning, they ALSO DON'T cover nursing homes. Maybe it is different in your state, and I hope you are lucky, but where my Dad passed away, we were paying OVER 10,000 a month for hospital and hospice care. Actually, I think it was that 10k dollar bill every month that made him go quicker, he HATED to spend a dollar let alone 10k a month, just to keep him comfortable.

Even here in Seattle, it is 8,000 a month for nursing care. You need to check some things out, because I have and in two different states it is the same.

Oh, and the way it works is, the patient has to use ALL of their money down to 2,000 and then you can "apply" for Medicaid to pay for end of life care.

OUTRAGEOUS!!! End of life decisions should be for the family not the government PAYING doctors to give instruction on foregoing life-saving treatment!!!!

HEY Jacka$$.....afraid they will decide to just end yours NOW? LOLOLOL!! You idiot, those doctors are being paid to explain what you REALLY are eligible for from your "Death....OOPS!, HEALTH Insurance Company", You know, the one that you've paid premiums to for 20 or 30 years.....the Doc will tell you that THE COMPANY WILL NOT COVER YOUR A$$! Meanwhile, the Executives are busy spending your premiums at the golf course in Hawaii....fine Cuban cigars, first class wine and Ho HO Ho's! You right wing "Teabaggers" (by the way...do any of you idiots actually know what that really means? Didn't think so.....but you fit the profile perfectly!) Bunch of NUTBAGS!! (Just a clue!)

This is just a case of allowing Medicare to pay for consultations everyone should be able to have. It's between doctor and patient. The government does not call the shots.

sel

#2 - Think you missed the point entirely, or you want to miss the point. Did the article say it was mandatory for anyone to consult a doctor regarding advanced directives? No, it states Doctors will advise people. Nothing is mandatory, unless you want to pretend it is so. End of life decisions are still up to the family, the problem is, a lot of people are totally unaware what options are available to allow their loved one or even themselves to die a humane death. You say end of life decisions should be up to the family? What about Terry Schivo? If I remember correctly, it was republicans that got involved in that situation. Were they thinking about the family back then? Come off the high horse....

Learn to read. All this plan does is make it so that people get the information they need to make end of life decisions. No death panels. No euthanasia. Just information. Get over all the lies by repugs, cons, tea baggers, Glenn Beck, Sarah Palin, and the insurance companies.

You have the option of consulting with your doctor or not. All this regulation says is that the government will pay the doctor for the consult time if you do it.

sel======= Thank the Democrats for all of this and now you know who to vote for this up coming election....

# 2.2 Slinger "Ever have to pay 10,000 a month for hospice?"

I went back & reread your posts & I see now how you are confused. Yes, Medicare does not pay for NURSING HOME care for end of life. I was POA for an elderly Aunt with dementia. Between her retirement & S.S., we still had to pay 1/2 of her nursing home care & yes, IF she had run out of $ with only $2000 allowed, she'd have gone through ALL her savings which was substantial; she died before that happened. Medicare pays for a short stay in a nursing home IF one goes DIRECTLY into it from a hospital. I believe it is @ 30 days, but things might have changed since our experience with it.

Frankly, you had very poor professional help in showing you how to maximize savings & minimizing expenses. But Hospice is either the caregiver of record or the hospital/nursing home is, but they BOTH can't be according to Hospice's Charter. I don't think this changes from State to State as I've lived & worked in 2 States & it is the same altho. I am on the Eastern side of the Rockies.

In point of fact, things can be manipulated-rightly or wrongly. (I had NOTHING to do with this case). My father-in-law was taken to hospital Xmas Day 3 yrs. ago. & admitted for dehydration, etc. He was dying & everyone knew it. My mother-in-law had taken care of him herself w/o the need of Hospice. My father-in-law had begged her NOT to put him in a home, so, since it is a small hospital here with everyone knowing each other mostly, they have a "long-term" care wing. It is just opposite the acute care hall, so they put him in the long-term care wing until Medicare stopped paying, then put him back into the acute wing for a short stay & then back down the hall again. Yes, I know were "gaming" the system, but it shows how things can be "re-arranged." This went on for 6 wks. until he peacefully passed away. My sister-in-law did some manipulating with her husband also & kept ALL his $, but WE all paid for it. (I don't like ANY of these people except for my father-in-law who was a dear soul)

Hope this clears up things a bit. Our health care, of which I have been bitching for the last 25 yrs., is a fiasco. And mark my words: this new bill will only make things MORE CONVOLUTED or as Pelosi said, "We'll just have to pass it to find out what is in it."

OUTRAGEOUS!!! End of life decisions should be for the family not the government PAYING doctors to give instruction on foregoing life-saving treatment!!!!

Foolish, sel. It's people like you who made it hard to get any real debate on HCR. You and Sara Palin and John Boehner. The Dr. is there to discuss the terms with the patient; the patient makes the decision. Not the famliy, and not the doctor. The doctor is just there to answer questions for the patient; just as they would be if the family were asking and the patient were incapacitated.

obviously, you can't read. The end of life counseling is VOLUNTARY, and all it does is advise people on what forms to fill out if they DON'T want their loved ones to lose their houses and fortunes on futile and horribly costly procedures to prolong their life if they have lapsed into a coma, i.e., Terry Schiavo. Please educate yourself on major issues instead of mindlessly repeating Sarah Palin and her parrot-life squawking of 'death panels', which is a blatant lie and has been proved so time and time again.

You got it right, Acidrain. I wonder why it is so difficult for people to just READ & COMPREHEND? Frankly, I counseled people on having this topic of discussion with their doctors for YEARS! And I will be accomping hubby to the Dr. this yr. for that exact topic.

I know why this is bringing so much static to the topic & it isn't new:

MOST PEOPLE DO NOT WANT TO THINK ABOUT DYING, MUCH LESS TALK ABOUT IT!

Does America have the dumbest people on the planet or what?? In America children are given every opportunity to get an education. I can understand in developing countries why some people may not be too educated because they have to work as a child. However, in America you have no excuse for ignorance but laziness. With all the info out there, how can people be so dumb. I mean the info had to be bypassed to get to the comments!! Is this guy lying because he is a republican drone? I'm not too sure but either way, it is a very sad situation.

Well, I do not want my family or the insurance company making the decisions. I want to make the with the help of my doctor.

Some people can not read. The government is not participating in this other than paying for it. People are pretty stupid. You make a will for after you are dead, but don't want to care for yourself at theuntil you are dead.

If you want your family to make the decisions. Tell your doctor!

End of life decisions should be made by the PATIENT. Unfortunately, this is not possible frequently because the discussions were not held with the physician ahead of time and the paperwork is not in place to follow those wishes. This program allows the doctor to get paid for these consultations with the PATIENT. There is NO BUREAUCRAT involved in the decision except in reimbursing the doctor for their time. This reimbursement is not effected by what the doctor and patient agree upon. It is not part of the filing for payment.

All the payer knows is that the doctor and patient had the discussion. There is nothing about the content of that discussion included in the paperwork. And there is no mandate that you have this discussion.

MOST PEOPLE DO NOT WANT TO THINK ABOUT DYING, MUCH LESS TALK ABOUT IT!

These are the same people that believe death results in entering paradise. I could never understand their fear of death. What hypocrites.

Those of you who think being kept alive is so bad I would remind you that WE DO NOT KNOW what happens after you die, no matter how much religion THINKS they know. How do you know it's not FAR WORSE? You don't.

It's gonna happen anyway.

OUTRAGEOUS!!! End of life decisions should be for the family not the government PAYING doctors to give instruction on foregoing life-saving treatment!!!!

Where does it say anywhere that doctors will be advising people to fore go life prolonging, let alone life saving, treatment. A feeding tube to a brain dead person is not life saving. It is life prolonging. Let me guess, you believe strongly in the Christian idea of an afterlife, right?

I'm just saying that you don't seem to understand any of this.

Even funnier to me is how our country is so messed up that necessary things like end of life planning and emissions caps HAVE have to be enacted quietly and by stealth because the lunatics running the show don't seem to care about what's actually best for the people in this country.

I'm just saying that it's sad that we have to sneak normal, sane legislation out at the holidays......

End of life planning or a living will is done on a regular basis when you write your will...it is a good idea and saves many people from being kept alive just to make the hospital lots of money. More fun to go to the other dimension in peace.by the way it was a republicans idea to put it in to the bill.

If its so great why are they trying to hide it from us and sneak it in? You can already do this during any office visit with your doctor. You go in to see your doctor because you don't feel right and all you have to do is tell him if things go wrong this is what I want. They don't have to waste a million dollars of our tax money trying to pass something that you can already do yourself by opening you mouth and telling your doctor. Its not that hard. Geeezzzz people. I did. Try it, he/she will listen and you are already paying for the visit. It dosen't cost extra.

"guess" you didn't have anything else to do on Christmas and were able to catch this secret report (as have the rest of us). So much misinformation. I asked my Dr to explain what procedures would be followed if I were ever to be in 'terminal' condition. I gave copies of our Living Wills to my MD, lawyer, each of my children, etc. Now they should all know what I want to be done for/to me. The documents should be read by your families before you become ill, not when everyone is upset. A Living Will does not automatically limit end of life procedures. If you want all possible techniques to be used, put it in your documents. Its your choice. That's the point. And do it now not when you are near death.

I guess you don't have anything else to do either since you're here. What part of Mr. Blumenauer's Quiet victory and not to crow about it or we ask that you do not broadcast this is not trying to be secret do you not understand. Besides, Medicare already pays for your visits to the doctor. They do mine anyway. My wife and I both know what we want done as does our doctor so why do they have to waste money (Rep and Dem) fighting over something that you can already do. That's all I'm saying. It's not that hard.

John, because if you collapse at home and EMTs arrive, if there is no CLEAR direction, they WILL attempt resussitation (sp?). use a POLST form. I'm surprised there was no mention in the article about POLST which was developed by the Center for Ethics in Health Care at Oregon Health & Science University. This form is completed by a person and their physician and is posted in a PROMINENT place in your home; my father-in-law's is on his refrigerator, along with a list of phone numbers for neighbors and next-of-kin. check it out!

Loucile #3.5 Great post! A will is to decide your wishes AFTER death, so an Advance Directive/Living will is what one NEEDS, to have their wishes followed BEFORE one dies!

And how EXACTLY is the GOVERNMENT doing anything to determine your end of life, your or your family wishes, or ANYTHING RELATED TO IT?!

Moron. The government is simply going to pay for your doctor or the medical facility to offer to talk to families when that time comes up for what options are available.

I went through this with my wife's parents, and now mine are at this age.

My wife and I both welcome this option. My wife's mother had no such option available. Her last statement to the doctor in the ER room was to "keep me breathing". She had already had a stroke that put her into a coma, had brain surgery, severe COPD, and a host of other problems stemming from the stroke. So the ER team spent hours reviving her and keeping her breathing. In the process they broke her ribs and caused her more trauma. She came back, and was on a breathing machine that also sucked slime out of her lungs. She then came down with Pneumonia as well.

The end result was that she "lived" (poor word in my opinion) for another 4 months in extreme pain, just kept alive by machines. Her husband blew through most of his money for these 4 months, while we watched her wither away. At the end she had to be stopped from feeding since her body couldn't process the food. We watched her basically starve to death in this terrible state.

THIS IS WHAT YOU WANT FOR EVERYONE!?? You bastard.

I for one do NOT want this to be me, my wife, or child. I want to know what options are available, and want to die in a dignified way. This is what this option is all about.

The government would pay the DOCTORS who have a conversation with the PATIENT about his future care, thus deciding BETWEEN THEM how they should proceed. Apparently this is very difficult for you to understand and so you come up with "the greedy hands of the government", which is an already worn out and tiresome mantra from the Tea Party and its uninformed and ignorant ranks, like you.

MkeMike: you are so right, but don't expect this caveman to understand a word you said, he and his ilk are too blinded by hate for anything Obama does or says, especially if it makes sense. You cannot fight dogma and ignorance with facts and truth. I am not an Obama fan but these people are beyond contempt.

When my mother was dying, her private insurance paid for end-of-life counseling and care, not only for her but for her family. Nobody pressured us into any decisions, they only told us what her options were. They were paid by the insurance company to do that, and it was extremely helpful to us at a very stressful time. I am so tired of Republicans and Tea Baggers distorting this issue.

mkeMike - Where do you think the government gets its money? Are you really that naive? You can understand all of the options available to you - all you have to do is make an appointment with your Dr. and pay him for his time. It's really quite simple as are many things until the Progressives / Statists get their paws onto things - then they get so convoluted and contorted they don't have any resemblence to what they were originally intended to be... All in the name of "fairness"... News flash genius - "fairness" equals dependence on the government

Actually this part of the bill was introduced by republicans years ago in to another health bill but of course they forgot...this is advice and you are free to do it or not, all the government does is pay the doctor to advice if you want to have life support under what conditions and how long and so on....so when a person is ill no one has to guess what they want. Most people include this in a living will and have a person designated to make decisions...sometime causes controversy and people are kept alive Like Schiavo causing all kinds of law suit.

A responsible person has a living will, say thank you to the government for helping you and familiy pay for one...amen

They do this is a choice not mandatory. So the person does not have to pay an attorney to do it I guess and you know what to expect. Family can have a say so if they want to but it is really up to the person.

Rasputin,

It will not be the doctor and the family making the decisions. It will be the DOCTOR telling the family something like this.

" Well we could do the operation on Dan but most of the cost of the operation will not be covered by your insurance. You already have a 5,000 deductible and 8,000 out of pocket expenses under your coverage. No that does not really cover the expenses. Since most of this is not covered by your insurance anyway it would cost $300,000 to do the operation. You might want to put your home on the market. That should just about cover the cost. Dan is in an induced coma right now so you need to make the choice for him. NO I would not recommend waking him up because he would be in pain. You need to make this choice. You would have no home but Dan would have the operation. No there is no guarantees it may work but then it may not. Yes you still have to pay for it even if it does not work"

This is an actual conversation my friend had with the doctor. I was there! So this "ADVICE" is to scare the family into letting the person die because it is cheaper to let them die than to do the operation.

She faced the loss of her home and the realization that Dan may have died anyway. Guess which choice she made. That is what was refered to as DEATH SQUADS. You will wake up and realize some day this is true but then it will be too late.

KAISER! What a laugh they are convincing companies in California to change their coverage to DEDUCTABLE plans. Because under those plans they have an easier time disallowing service to paitents. My new deductable is $1500.00 That does not sound too bad right? WRONG There is also an additional 'Out Of Pocket" expense of $3000.00. BUT they still can disallow service that they deem is not covered and you get a bill for the amount of the service rendered.

Thanks OBAMACARE! I hope his head explodes!

This change is happening because KAISER is trying to offet the cost of the uninsured OR the Obamacare patients by charging the PAYING patients more for services!

The government should leave families to handle end of life decisions.

Pip, they are leaving the families alone. All they are doing is making it so more families can take advantage by covering the cost the doctors would charge for sitting down with the families and patients.

There is nothing there that says the doctors or the patients have to do A or B or C, and not D or E.

You can understand all of the options available to you - all you have to do is make an appointment with your Dr. and pay him for his time.

That's exactly the problem, though. Most doctors - especially geriatric doctors - are so tightly booked that it would be impossible for them to thoroughly discuss end-of-life options during a standard visit. Therefore, the patient would need to schedule a special visit - which he or she would have to pay for, since it's not a medically necessary office visit. Considering how cash-strapped most seniors are, the majority of them would not be able to afford to pay for this extra visit. Having Medicare pay for these counselling visits will allow many more people to take advantage of the opportunity.

mkeMike;

Your mother-in-law made her own end of life decision with her statement to the Dr. of "Keep me breathing!" It seems like you and your wife would have liked to take this right away from her. That is not your right. I think that if this is the way she felt then she would have expressed it at any counselling session she might have went to. Maybe the reason she didn't do a pre-counselling session is because she knew that you and your wife would have tried to talk her out of what she really wanted and she didn't want to go through that BS. Look in the mirror before calling someone else a bastard.

rf33456:

Since you weren't there or involved, there is no way for you to comment, is there?

Her husband had her doctor certify her as not being mentally competent to make her own decisions. This outraged the rest of the family. After her death we actually reflected back on his decision and her doctor's involvement and still feel like nothing about it was good.

She was a very religious person, which is where I, myself, find the issue. If you believe in God and God took your life, then who are you to try to go around His decision? She died on the table. Her statement to keep her breathing meant that regardless of her condition when/if brought back, she would be in that situation.

My wife and I have told each other and the family that if we are in the situation as her mother, then do NOT revive. My father just had a stroke and was out. My mother, myself and brothers were all at the bed when they once again asked if he should be revived if his heart stopped. We all said no, and he survived and is doing better now - but we still made this decision.

The whole issue is that these decisions should be openly discussed and determined by the person and his immediate family BEFORE getting to this stage. Providing funding for this purpose saves a lot of grief for the family.

I whole heartedly feel for any family in the situation of having to make these decisions. This is without a doubt the most difficult thing in the world to do, in my viewpoint. If the person and his wife/family could talk the issues out and have a set of guidelines for medical staff to follow when/if the time comes, then the extreme grief of these decisions are handled already.

mkeMike,

Having the government provide "FUNDING" for this saves a lot of grief for the family ??? How about the family PAYING for their family member to go see a proper Estate planning attorney ??? Why in the hell should the government insert itself right into the middle of a unique situation and PAY for it ?????

What's next ? Oh, I know.....the government is going to decide what foods we eat......before they decide which doctor to pay.......for helping a person decide to extend their life or not !!!!!!!!!

Holy Mackerel ! Maybe our country just needs to try something of broader implications like balancing the budget, eliminate welfare fraud, getting people back to work and reducing government spending.

My nephew is a doctor in a busy small-city hospital. He is expected to see 100 patients a day. Good luck having an extended conversation.

Why? It worked!

The liers took the house with Boehner as speaker and now they'll pump it out to take it all in 2 years.

The clause was placed in the bill by republicans, truly and then they call it death panel, how disgusting is that?

I don't have an attic, now what do I do? Help!

Slara

The only person that should be ashamed is those people who listen to the lies from people like you who have not experienced these Death Squads first hand.

I have sweetheart! When you are faced with the loss of your home at 65 years old or the death of a loved one that you are told will die anyway, then you get back to me when you let them die and then find out later you were incorrectly advised!

Doctors will be the new "SHAMWOW" salesmen! They will convince you not to make the best choice for your loved one BUT the best one for the finances of the hospital.

You seem to think the public will not be conned! Look at how many products are bought every day from an informercial! We even elected a president from an informercial!

Ah, so doctors are going to be dishonest now but the situation will be different when you're exhausted and hysterical with grief? They're ALWAYS SHAMWOW salesmen. The reason to get the information in advance is that you're less likely to fall for their bs.

Siara

It is stupid to even have a discussion with you!

When do you think that people will get this ADVICE? When they are 20 yo and perfectly healthy?

WOW you are so niave! I have a bridge for sale What to buy it? Only $500.00!

Mark: With the non truths that you spin, how do you look at your self in a mirror, have you no shame? Anyone of us can tell a story like you have told, however most of us refuse to twist the truth like you attempt to! Now, perhaps you should stop advertising your bridge and start trying to tell the truth! I can understand that you do not like the POTUS, many people do not, however not liking him does not give you free reign to say things that are not accurate or realistic to attempt to discredit him or his party!

Mark,

This is what you wrote-

"Doctors will be the new "SHAMWOW" salesmen! They will convince you not to make the best choice for your loved one BUT the best one for the finances of the hospital."

Can you now clarify how stopping treatment will add to the hospitals coffers when they must stop billing at the termination of the patients life?

I'd like to have a business where it's more profitable to not produce product or service than when you do.

Ok Rooster

1) Everything I have stated is 100% true! You do not want to believe me So that is your right BUT those of us that this has happened to know the truth!

2) So that is your point? To call me a liar? Fine call me anything you like! I know the truth and soon everyone else will too! The first thing they ever do to someone raising the alarm is to call them a liar and try to discredit them "I NEVER HAD SEX WITH THAT WOMAN Ms. Lewinski!" Sound familar!

3)Tell me one thing is my statement that is untrue and prove it it!!!!!

OK Now Terry

1) Many hospitals provide services they never get fully paid for! Many things are not covered by insurance and are charged back to the patient! The patient does not have the funds to pay for it so they file Bankrupcy! Stopping patient care will save the hospital money because they will not have the expense of providing services to someone with NO hope of ever collecting a dime for!

2) You asked about a business that it is more profitable not to provide service. Lets say you have a house to rent SO you are forced to rent to people who never pay rent BUT demand all sorts of repairs and renovations to the property. NOW would it be more profitable to rent to them OR not rent at all if you are forced to rent to them if you do want to rent?

Now do you understand? You would give those people all kinds of reasons not to rent your house because you know you will have tons od expensees and little payment!

One last thing Rooster

Judging by the term POTUS that you used you are not American. Do you live in the U.S.? If you don't how do you know anything that is happening over here and WHY do you even care?

No I do not like Obama. SO? People also do not like Sarah Palin either and go to great lenghts to let that be know from attacking her husband and kid in the press to even saying that her son with down's syndrome should have been aborted. SO if anyone is telling lies and distorting facts to discredit someone it is Obama supporters and opinions outside the U.S. that have NO business in telling us anything. Just as we have no business telling you how to run yours!

Had to go away for a while.

Mark,

So now you're saying that hospital staff would advocate letting or assisting patients death for financial gain. And that as a result of the government plan to give families the choice of talking to the doctors about what to expect as the patients condition worsens. You must live in a very creepy universe.

As to your comparing a rental house to medical care being provided by people who have taken an oath to help sick people, I don't know what to say except I hope you don't get a landlord to do your treatments or surgery.

VWterry

Yes that is exactly what I am saying AND that oath you mention is no longer administered.

NO I am not comparing medical to rental BUT you did not bother to read the other post so NEVERMIND!! Am am comparing one business to another.

Also this advice as you call it is nothing more than a scare tactic to convince people to let people die than to have the hospital take on the expense of a service that they will never see payment for.

Terry, This oath did not apply to the woman who died in a hospital waiting room as hospital workers stepped over her.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MCuNl67Me98

Or the recent account of a woman who bled to death on the way to another hospital because she did not have the insurance the first hospital needed for treatment! You don't know what to say because you do not bleieve it happens but it does every day!

mark-500225.....I was just reading some posts here...........Maybe you are new to this......You wrote to " Rooster"....... "Judging by the term POTUS that you used you are not American"

FYI......POTUS means President Of The United States.....nothing more, nothing less.

You'll see POTUS all over these postings

vwterry...You wrote "So now you're saying that hospital staff would advocate letting or assisting patients death for financial gain."

Hey, Obama said on 2 separate occasions that:

1.) Accused Doctors of removing kids tonsils because they get more money than prescribing an antibiotic....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZhNeGYYPgIE

2.) Doctors look at the reimbersement chart and see that they can make 30,40 maybe $50,000 to amputate a foot instead of treating the diabetes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SG56B2et4M8

Obama is going to save us from those bad Doctors ????And you wonder why we don't think he has a clue what he is doing ????

Mike

I know what POTUS means. How often you you use it? You live in the US and do you use POTUS in your posts very often?

Now, perhaps you should stop advertising your bridge and start trying to tell the truth!

He also said this so Rooster has no idea about sarcasm either!

He also called me a liar too. Was he there? No he wasn't!

I am also getting tired of countries around the world sticking their noses in American politics when they slam us for getting involved in theirs! Especially Canadians!! Pay attention to you own country please and butt out of ours!

I use SCOTUS a lot because Supreme Court of the United States is tiresome.

Why do you use US instead of United States?

Keep on supporting the Obama agenda, fool!! He has been a HUGE failure!! a Blacks & liberals are too racist and stupid to admit it!! They will support this buffoon no matter how much he screws up!! Come on 2012!!!

Isn't it amazing how these progressives can't seem to make choices without the blessing of the almighty government! When my Mothers time came my Father, the Grandchildren and I sat down with the doctors and hospital and made the necessary choices. We didn't have to wait for the government to tell us what to do. It must be terrible not to be able to make choices without some government offical to tell who, what, where and when!!!

I continue to be amazed by the conservatives who always tout a perfect family situation that they had, a wonderful decision that they made, etc -- and all without the government.

Quite simply put, I do not believe these stories. After being in health care for 40 years, it is my experience that few families have planned for the end of life for anyone in their group. It is too difficult a subject for any family member to initiate. So, to have the help of physicians to open the conversation, if nothing else, is invaluable. To have the government provide that opportunity as part of overall health care is good sense.

When I read the comments about President Obama and his goals, I am frightened by the stupidity and the bigotry that I read between the lines. I am even more frightened that this stubborn uninformed stance held by so many is holding our country back on so many fronts: education, health care, commerce, care for the young, the elderly, and the indigent.

I regret that I am beginning to equate conservatism with selfishness and small-mindedness, with stupidity and bigotry, and with hatred and self-promotion. I am tired of a polarized nation. I want to live in a country in which we all try to consider each others' points of view and needs without resorting to hatred and namecalling.

I do not think that we have to worry about China destroying our country. Some of our own citizens seem to be quite willing to do that with outdated viewpoints and sheer ignorance and isolationism. And with outright lies . . .

yo ted, you sound like a cold hearted prick...maybe you should have recused yourself when it came time to make any decisions. I have a feeling your only real interest was in the bottom line anyway. when it comes to the care of the American people libs are best equipped to make the choices/decisions and write the laws. libs have a heart, they care naturally. conservatives/baggers/repugs? my opinion, they're more concerned with their bank account.

scruples - Actually I believe libs always want to kick the can down the street and NOT make their own decisions, but rather "support" an unfeeling government entity to make the decision. Talk about being "coldhearted"!

when it comes to the care of the American people libs are best equipped to make the choices/decisions and write the laws. libs have a heart, they care naturally

One of the biggest lies being promoted by liberal progressives such as yourself is that "I am from the government, and I am here to help!" I don't recall any passages in the US Constitution that says or implies that the government is to "control us from the cradle to the grave".

you had me until you got to the bible quote-oh well i'll let that slide---the issue is having the right to die and having choices---a right and a responsibility---

It's all about money...always is. You can cover a poison pill so it goes down easier but it's still poison. Guess what? The government has to come up with the money to fund medicare, Obamacare, medicaid. So, how many old people on Social Security pay taxes? Not too many, hmmm? This is just some of that 'tiny steps' down the road to complete government control.

Does this mean that nursing homes will be covered by medicare? Does this mean that living will weren't being written prior to Obamacare? Does this mean that people weren't dying before Obamacare?

What on earth happened to people's intelligence prior to electing Obama? Were we so stupid that we couldn't take care of life and death situations prior to his election? My mother passed away, she was very ill and we were going to go to hospice (a godsend) we didn't have to have a government beaurocrat tell us what we could or could not do and...we got to speak to many doctors and didn't have to have Obama involved. Sorry, this is one more lie coming from Obama and give it time...it will ultimately end with the "well, she's old and not worth much to society, she's costing us money so lets just let her go"

Linda

I am so sorry but if you are in health care your opinions are already suspect! It is like taking advice from a drug dealer on how to kick a crack habit!

I am also sick and tired of you liberal Obama supporters trotting out the race car every time anyone disagrees with him!

I do not know what you actually do in a hospital BUT if you were a doctor or nurse you would have said you were SO you must be in administration So what would you know?

I am beginning to associate liberalism with naivety, single-mindedness, and never thinking for yourself.

You call us liars, do you know us NO! Were you there when those things happened NO. Would you support your hospital in any opinion to hold onto your job? YES!

@Blackman2day

Not courageous leadership, but leadership nontheless. Sarah Palin supported state govt encouragement of end-of-life counselling when she was Gov of AK. She was for it b4 she was against it. Note there are two kinds of 'death panels' ... the fake kind of Betsy McCaughey, Chuck Grassley and St. Sarah. That fake kind is based on proposed section 1233 which previously had wide bipartisan support and was first proposed by now Senator Johhny Isakson. The idea that seniors like me should make advance plans and that doctors can help by explaining the choices. Hospitals hate getting sued by family members after grandma dies. Why didn't you do everything in the world to save her? An advance health care directive answers questions like 'if I fall into a persistent vegatative state, what should the hospital do?' I got so mad at the stupid scary stuff peddled by the looney-tunes right that I blogged in Aug 2009 that seniors should not get scared they should get mad. I went to a company that advertizes on tv "We put the Law on your side" ... cost $50 took 45 minutes and now my advance care directive is on file everywhere. Am I against doctors getting paid to have these conversations? No. Not all seniors have a master's degree or a sister who is an attorney so I'm ok with my fellow seniors having a chat with their doctor.

What about the other kind of 'death panel' ?? The other kind, the less fake kind, is based on the Austrian school of economics. The Ludwig von Mises gang. Look for an article titled 'yes Virginia, there will be death panels' probably available on libertarian websites ... People make a huge mistake when they mix up these two very different kinds of death panels. I think that Sarah Palin is incapable of explaining the ideas of the Austrian school, so she fell back to the totally fake kind. The Austrian school says that if you provide health care for everybody you have to start rationing it somewhere along the line. Sec 1233 would have reduced health care expenses by cutting out unwanted end-of-life expenses and court costs. I think I have earned the right, at age 74, to say that we should have a serious adult discussion about rationing. Sure, death is scary for everybody. My folks died when they were 84, so based on that I have another 9 years to blog. I would just as soon have my kids inherit what little money I have instead of spending the end of my days with tubes sticking out. Democrats chickened out when they had the chance to defend sec 1233, so it is not courageous leadership - though I am glad that zombie sec 1233 is alive in regs.

mark - so you have one bad experience at a hospital so now every single doctor and nurse in the country is garbage. I don't think your opinion carries that much weight. I'm sorry that you had a bad experience and now are out to bash the entire medical community.

It's interesting that so many conservatives believe that educating families about all their end-of-life options is inevitably going to result in bad decisions. Do they think we're too stupid to make responsible decisions for ourselves and our families? Or too immoral? Or too lazy?

If it is the families decision, why is the government sticking it's nose into it?

Less government means a better life. Unless you are dependent on the government for your welfare.

Where do you suggest they get their information? From the Rush Limbaugh show? From a tele-evangelist who dropped out of sixth grade?

Excuse me Siara, you've got the wrong show: it's the Glen Beck show.

I have read thru all the posts on this and alot of people seem to think it is a good idea, but what you fail to understand is that everytime that you let the Government into your personnel life you give them a excuse to take another step then another then where does it stop? I just wish my fellow citzens would wake up to this. I for one want nothing from the government besides to protect the rule of law, promote coomerce and plow my damn streets within 48 hours, they can no longer even do this anymore.

Rasputin wrote: "Excuse me Siara, you've got the wrong show: it's the Glen Beck show."

I don't know, Rasputin. When I look at Glenn Beck he doesn't strike me as a sample of the good health I want for my family.

Strangely enough, our elderly knew about their options long before Obama appeared, I mean, how, oh how, did we ever manage to think for ourselves and make decisions prior to Obama?

I fail to see how this has anything to do w/ the gov't sticking their nose into anything. The only thing this regulation does is to allow a doctor to be reimbursed if/when they have a end-of-life consultation w/ a patient. Period. I personally think Obamacare is an absolute travesty and has nothing but increase the cost of my health care since it's enactment. It will drive up the cost of health care by untold billions of dollars.

However, this has nothing to do whatsoever w/ the Obamacare and is simply allowing a doctor to get paid for his/her time. Nothing more, nothing less. It has nothing to do w/ the gov't taking over of health care. Now, if the bill said that the details of the conversation must be submitted to get the reimbursement, then you have the right to complain. It's no wonder I can no longer call myself a Republican (and refuse to become a Democrat).

Another "can't read" genious! Who is "forcing" anything on anybody? The choice of a consultation about end of life is "voluntary" and the government does not force you to have it, but if you do they will pay for it. Of course this concept is so complicated and mysterious that you don't get it.

Why so angry Rasputin? Didn't Santa Obama and his elf Joe (F Bomb Biden) leave anything in your stocking? I thought only Republicans and Tea Partiers were the angry ones. An angry Dem-unheard of!

This is a perfect example of the right wingers idiocy, disagreeing with morons is not being angry, but in your case I could make an exception.

When you can say something with some substance and intelligence, call me.

Rasputin, apparently you are the ignorant one, you can and have always been allowed to make your own end of life directive. This new regulation will just be another burden that the taxpayer will have to shoulder. Responsible americans set this up on there own with a lawyer and other family members present.

Rasp

No what this is the perfect example of is the hypocrisy of the Democratic/Liberal agenda.

You call ALL Republican Right wingers. We aren't!

Just as all Democrats are not Granola crunching, sandal wearing airheads, that have never had an intelligent thought.

I find it interesting that you end your statements with a comment that just shows that you are guilty of what you accuse another poster of doing! Typical!

Thank you mark, well said.

Putting it simply, there are some of us who cant afford to just go pay an attorney to draw up a living will right now(it's not free!). I have a lot of health problems which have depleteded my savings or any money I used to have for things & times like this very quickly & not only because of normal living expenses, but because of outrageous attorneys fee's I had to pay, right after I first received my disability, to protect my daughter from a sick & perverted father, which I should of never had to pay in the first place, it should have been taken care of by DOSS who dropped the ball so hard & put it on me when they found out I had hired a divorce attorney, amazing how they work, when they think they can get out of doing their job & put it off on you! If I had no money at the time, (actually I didn't I had to borrow the money from my parents until my money came in) they would have taken care of the problem themselves & I would have been about $10,000 to $12,000 the better, money that was to be used to help keep me going & take care of my daughter in coming years, plus pay for things like this, not to do their job & in the end it solved absolutely nothing, but sure did pad the attorneys pockets!I'm very young to have the health issues I have & have been sick since I was a teenager, but I still worked for years, 2 & 3 jobs at a time & paid my fair share into the system, while living for many years with no health insurancebecause I was what they considered un-insurable because of my illness, I could barely afford to go to the doctor when I was sick, since it was $100.00 a visit, plus medication, because I worked & made over $500 a month I was not eligible for Medicaid, unless I was hospitalized for weeks at a time & was not working, this is the reason so many people that are sick stop working, it doesn't pay to work when it all goes to the doctor or hospital & you have nothing left to live on! I do receive Medicare, Medicaid & my disability now, but it does not pay much, as many people know, there is nothing left after paying basic bills & none left to put away, esp. when you have a dead beat father who wont pay his child support & nothing is ever done to him like the courts are supposed to do when they don't pay... so now Im stuck with no money to pay a lawyer for this simple service, but like you said, everyone should have one & I agree, so maybe this will help people in my situation? Guess we'll see? I'm not going to pretend like I fully understand what is actually going on or trying to be done right now, I haven't had the chance to fully read up on it yet, but just from what I have read so far, I hope this is a good thing for people in my situation & not another way of the government deciding something else for us! I sure don't want to leave this burden on my family, I know what I want done & have already discussed it with them, just need it in writing, I dont want to be kept alive on machines just to rack up a huge bill for the tax payers to have to take care of... just let me go in peace when my time is up! I did not agree with Obama's health care reform, even if it does allow for everyone to have insurance, most will not be able to afford it anyway & a lot of people who I have talked with about it, that don't have insurance, have said they will not pay what the government is asking them to pay, so what now? Are they going to scare everyone into paying with their penalties for not paying....throw them into jail?? Yea right, they can't even put a child molester in jail much less a person who wont pay their insurance premiums! Then again they pprobably would the way the government works nowadays, wouldn't surprise me one bit!! It's just a big fat 3000 page mess if you ask me!

How Dumb: There are examples of living wills on line and a letter stating your wishes, signed, dated and witnessed will often do. Banks have notaries who will notarize said letter, often for free

How Dumb......

Living Will / Health Care Power of Attorney...... $49.00 @ legalzoom.com

http://www.legalzoom.com/living-wills/living-wills-overview.html

Right on Mike,

That's what I did. And then I blogged about it:

http://kakoluri.com/2009/08/18/how-to-beat-the-death-panels/

You people are complete idiots. There are NO DEATH PANELS!!! Do you get it yet? This is not a requirement. This is not adding a burden to anyone. It's simply allowing a doctor to get reimbursed for their time if/when a patient requests a consultation to understand their health care options when they can no longer make decisions for themselves.

You don't need an attorney or any money to make a Living Will. Hospitals will give you the paper FOR FREE and keep it on record. If you want an attorney to examine it that will cost you, but it is binding with or without an attorney.

To mygirl1, Mike in Delray, Gypsy Chief, & In Cognito, etc....THANK YOU all for the information! I didn't know you could have all this done for free or for very little money... this is an amount I can afford! I've been under the impression for years you had to have an attorney to have this done. As many times as I've been in the hospital & they have asked me if I had a living will & I said "NO", not once has anyone ever told me or offered to give me the paperwork needed to do it then, esp. during times when I wasn't sure if I was going to leave the hospital alive, you would think they would want to help during times like this, but didn't. I guess their job description doesn't include this & unfortunately I know how understaffed most hospitals are for nurses right now...they probably don't have time to even think about things like this, but if I were a nurse or hospital staff that could help in this matter & saw a patient in this situation, I would at least get them the paperwork they needed & advised the family to try to get it done as soon as they could...my gosh it's just thinking ahead for everyone...if this lady(or anyone in this situation for that matter) gets to the point where they can't think or talk anymore, then at least they will have something in writing that states their final wishes, that were made while either me or anyone was made while coherent enough to understand what I was signing, should the time come, this would make things so much easier on everyone involved & cheaper! Maybe the government should think about that, have someone at hospitals that do this for patients, think of the money they could save, if they were not permitted to run a bunch of test or keep people alive that do not wish to be...if they do then fine, it's their decision, but I do not even want Chemo if I ever found out I had a bad form of cancer, I've seen the nightmare of that avenue & I'd rather just go w/o it, I didn't see it help at all, just made my family member sicker & I sadly I think they would of lived longer w/o it! I know my parents & I dont think they could carry out my wishes unless it was already written & signed, I don't want to be kept alive on machines, put through a bunch of tests & treatments that would most likely make no difference in the end, only run up a hospital bill for the government or taxpayers to pay. This will take a big burden off my family & for me it should be simple, since I don't own a lot, just my jewelry, truck, & furniture, which my family will honor my wishes & make sure it goes to my girls in the manner I want. I'll check into these sites very soon & again thank you for reading & helping! You all are so very nice & caring, not even my parents have offered or should I say guided me to sites like this to help me get this done, it's been mentioned a few times in the past between me & my mom & actually my mother was the one who told me I needed a lawyer to have it drawn up(maybe she didn't know it could be done for free, or fairly cheap, I think the bank charges about $10.00 to have a public notary witness & sign for you) sadly, I think they are in denial, no one wants to think of their children passing before them, so I do understand why they don't want to bring up the subject, so it's something I need to do on my own. Thanks for the help! I appreciate it so much!

No matter how much it may hurt my family...I DO NOT want to be a burden! I'd rather leave this world in peace, rather be kept in a hospital or nursing home w/ no quality of life whatsoever! I can only imagine the people that are in that position right now & now it's too late!

Choice by a bureaucrat? There is no such a thing in this new part of health care, so please read with more care. At present the choice IS BEING MADE by a bureaucrat from the insurance company, so what is your point?

Your statement that "the intent of the law" is not always what we end up with. That is so true. At the same time, with such a complete stonewalling of progress by republicraps is even more prevalent. "DEATH PANELS" are such a distorted of the truth that it amazes me people accept this LIE. Since when does a consultation with a DOCTOR constitute a political "death panel"? Is it when a republicrap doctor convinces his old in law grandfather that he has run out of options stealing his money Legally, BY PROLONGING HOSPITAL CARE TO DRIVE UP COST. How stupid!!!!!! I WANT TO BE ABLE TO DISCUSS MY END OF LIFE POSSIBILITIES WITH AN INTELLIGENT PERSON, NOT SOME SELFISH FAMILY MEMBER. THIS HAPPENS RIGHT NOW AND HAS ALWAYS HAPPENED, now for a change it will be compensated for. WHAT IN HELL IS WRONG WITH THAT? I think the medical establishment (and their republicrap lackeys) try their best to bleed every cent they can from you in the times of greatest need. Death panels, and they send Dr Kevorkian to prison because he HELPED people relieve the pain of life. When will people get smart enough to see what is happening to themselves? I just laugh at these idiots, they remind me of domesticated TURKEYS when caught in the rain. They look up and drown because they are to stupid to think for themselves, everybody has a brain, but some are to stupid to think!

ray4a, Just to clue you in, turkeys of any kind don't look up and drown in the rain. They are much smarter than some of the people who post on blogs. P.S. I know this because I raised turkeys.

John, you are so right, I have witnessed the same thing in my case as well, even though I was not terminal, they would run a bunch of test for what reasons I still don't know? & come up with absolutely nothing! I can only imagine what they do to older people who are terminal or don't have anyone there to speak for them or don't know what's going on or what to do? Hospitals are just a joke today, they could care less about you or how you feel, I have been booted out when I was sick & in so much pain & really needed to be there & begged to stay, but other times they would keep me when not needed. Just unbelievable! I guess Medicare & Medicaid decide now if you can stay another day or not, no matter how sick you are!

Sorry, I had the wrong person, this was a reply to Whaaat....still pretty funny John!

Rasputin,

The haughty and arrogant tone of your comments to everyone disagreeing with your sacred opinion suggests you need a tube of Preparation H ..........perhaps a supersize.

Perhaps one day you will realize there are many out there with differing opinions just as intelligent as you, or possibly more intelligent...........who simply see this as another unnecessary government growth opportunity by Obama.

Until then..........you decide how much you need to apply.

@Whaat

There is no intervention by a bureaucrat. All the proposed regulation does ... it allows the doctor to bill Medicare for his/her time. Get real

Yeah, it makes sense to have your wishes on paper. So where is peoples' personal responsibility that they can't do that without some government regulation that doctors talk to them about it? This is another example of the nanny state. Anyone as an individual can get the paper from the hospital to make their wishes known in writing and the hospital will file it, for free and without any government involvement. They don't need the government to hold their hand through the process.

So where is peoples' personal responsibility that they can't do that without some government regulation that doctors talk to them about it?

There's no government regulation here, they just created a code for doctors to bill the time to

Thank you for sharing that.

My Father discussed his treatment with his physician, as well as us kids, before he was put on a ventilator. When his kidneys failed, we all knew what he wanted us to do.

Nothing would make him happier than to know others have taken his example and followed it.

Karen, Thank you for sharing your story. I too stood at the foot of my father's bed and was the one to tell the Doctor that enough was enough. My father and I had spoke about this before hand and he had so informed his doctor and the hospital staff. He said my son knows me and knows how much I would want to live with dignity. He will know when it is time. It was an extremely tough moment. Dad I love you.

I think it is illegal to scatter human remains from a plane.

I feel for your sorrow about losing your dad, and I applaud HIS forethought and dignity in his final days. I ask you, did his "death panel" hurt him, or give him the grace to do what he knew was best for you all and himself last. I believe the latter was true. With so many of our loved ones here today and gone tomorrow it is a hard thing to make the needed decisions for end of life situations, BUT IT IS NEEDED. The "scare tactics" manage to stupefy some, but we know the value of proper medical consultations, (when they are right). Please know that there are millions like yourself every year that has to endure the heart ache of losing a loved one, some by accident, some by illness, some by deliberate murder, all are worthy of the same love and compassion we as humans desire to give. Thank you for your eloquence regarding your personal loss.

It is not illegal to scatter ashes from a plane in Florida. There are private pilots who work with funeral homes to arrange it. My dad was a pilot and a flight engineer all his life after he came home from WWII. We had it all arranged ahead of time with the funeral home of his choice - back in 1991 when he prepaid for his cremation. The pilot we chose had a Cessna 172, which was my dad's favorite little plane - we poured the ashes into a long pipe that was attached to the side of the plane and that the pilot could open from inside when he was over the release area. I have pictures of the ash cloud drifting away behind the plane as it went over. You have to get permission from the "landing" place - where the ashes will most likely drift - in our case it was over the church yard / church cemetery. That was also dad's choice. It was his way of "reaching out to touch the face of God." It was also his way of insuring that we did not "stand by his grave & weep" - he hated that whole aspect of death and dying - now he is part of thousand winds that blow and is part of summer sunlight and winter snow... he freed us to just look up at the clouds on any given day and feel that he was right there with us, no matter where we were or how far away from the church yard we were - his wife of 60 years, his daughter and his grandson. The Hospice people were wonderful and called on my mother and had luncheons for the bereaved who had passed the same month my dad did. I live 300 miles away so I was grateful for their support of her through that first year. Between their Medicare and their little supplemental policy, and their pre-planning, the only thing we had to pay for was the bag piper and flowers. We had a celebration of dad's life, with the service, and we spent a good few hours laughing and looking at pictures and remembering.... something that would not have been possible if we had NOT had "THE DISCUSSION." I'm 53, but I've already had the talk with my son and have started setting things up so that, hopefully, when my time comes, I will be able to go with as much dignity and grace, surrounded by loved ones and days filled with smiles, as my dad did.

Wheres the part where the government dictated what he should be doing? As I read "He was comfortable and did it "his way" seems very contrary to the government intrusion you seem to support. I think we all want to go our way but you miss the fact of Big Obama mission creep that now it's his and Big Gov way. You are confused?

Freedom of choice is not the point here. The point is that if your dad decided he did not want to go into hospice, the Government would say "too bad" even if your dad begged to stay alive. It would be too costly and not worth the cost so they could become your death panel that will dictate whether he dies or not.

Also, it will become like Social Security. When it starts going over budget and into deficits (and it will and has already), they will start putting restrictions on like anyone older than 85 will not receive health care. When they have to make more cuts and reforms, anyone older than 80 will not receive health care and so on. This is what socialism is folks, it doesn't work in the real world.

Thank you, Karen, for your post. I care for my mother who is now in the late stages of ovarian cancer. She has a wonderful hospice nurse who visits twice a week. She has a DNR (do not resusitate) order. This means she wants no resusitation, no paramedics called if/when such a situation should arise. She just wants to pass peacefully and with dignity. Hospice provides comfort care which means she will not have to experience any pain. This is her life and she has the right to make these decision, not a court or a law. As far as euthenasia goes, it is our life, we have the right to chose a peaceful ending. We should all have the freedom to make our own decisions on these issues, not to have someone else decide for us.

Well stated! It is a shame that this common-sense and humane approach was perverted by those who were crying and ranting about "death panels' earlier this year.

I totally agree with this decision since it is an emotional, physical, and financial burden on those who are left behind. I have an only child who has 3 young kids, fully employed like her husband, and still trying to finish her Bachelor's Degree. I live with them and my immediate relatives are in the West Coast. I do not wish her to shoulder a heavy load due to my prolonged illness caused by utilization of extraordinary medical methods.

On this matter, I concur with this proposed bill by the present Administration.

We have to be realistic in life and think about those who will shoulder the responsibility especially their emotional and physical well-being. We should be generous enough to think of our love ones we are living behind.

What and why does the government suddenly 'help' you out with here? Couldn't you have done any of this without having a beaurocrat involved? And...oh, nevermind, I think that there are people who look to the government for everything these days. I have seen people with serious illnesses being denied government help over and over, being shoved to the end of the line, having their paper work lost and many just simply gave up and died. Then, after they were dead the family got word that said government beaurocrat had reviewed the paper work and wanted to schedule another appointment...

Oh, right, under Obamacare things will be MUCH more efficient since the government will have improved 100% in how it handles all the new beaurocrats who will be hire to handle all the 360,000,000 new patients under Obamacare...

Karen-2838360

My wife is an Oncology nurse and we both agree with you.

We waste a lot of money in our medical system, and drive people deeper and deeper into debt slavery, in the name of merely prolonging life, regardless of the quality of that life.

Often times this is because the family doesn't realize that there are alternatives, and no doctor has discussed these with them. Having fearmongering crackpots spreading lies about "death panels" just makes it worse.

Obama and the proponents of this idiotic socilaist health care plan should be hung.

Flagged, inflammatory. Also, a death threat.

peppy 12.7

Can you cite even some made-up facts to support your completely idiotic statements? Even one? The government can not force anyone INTO hospice.

That statement alone makes everything else you wrote automatically null and void.

What are you talking about? Try reading the article before you start ranting. Of course you may have read the article but have no reading comprehension. In that case there is no hope for you.

You have completely misunderstood the content of this regulation. It doesn't grant the government any powers. None. It simply reimburses people for talking to a medical professional so they can understand their choices for end-of-life care. It's not forcing anything on anyone, nor is it making any decisions for anyone. It's just providing a financial benefit (reimbursement) for an existing medical service (end-of-life advice from a doctor).

Another uninformed opinion by a dogmatic, ignorant and hateful moron. The government DOES NOT make any decisions about you life, even though in your case they should, but only PAYS for a consultation about end of life IF YOU WANT IT. Then YOU decide, so please tell me what part of the plan says you have to have a consultation and then the GOVERNMENT will decide if you live or die. What a brainless right wing nut you are. Sarah Palin must be very proud of you.

so says the government. But they are all liars, so why believe anything they say?

Calm down Rasputin, you need a drink of an alcoholic beverage. Down big fella.

The government just said "WE WILL PAY FOR A DOCTORS CONSULTATION", SINCE WHEN DOES THAT CONSTITUTE A GOVERNMENT INTERVENTION IN YOUR AFFAIRS. It is lunacy like yours that is the problem.!

What you don't understand is Medicare already does pay for doctors visit. All you have to do is during your next visit for whatever reason "tell him what you want" and he will tell you how it can be done. Period. Not hard. All this does is cost Medicare more because you go in to the doctor just for this consultation. If you have this "consultation" during one of your regular visits for whatever reason it costs NO MORE. I'm on Medicare and its what my wife and I both did at no extra cost for a special visit just for consultation. If your doctor is worth anything at all you should be able to do the same. Its not gevernment intervention thats true its just an extra cost to Medicare that just dosen't have to be.

and excuse the hell out of my typo's

Medicare does pay for doctor's visits, but only for certain things, not just anytime you feel like going in for a chat. This means that once a year, the doctor can talk to you about options for end of life care. What could possibly be wrong with that?

My Dad has been gone for a long time and my Mom, while still in good health, is getting up in years. Planning, rather than having things be chaotic in a difficult time, is a good idea...BUT

I do not want and I will fight any government recommendations, intrusion, interference, or forcing of my Mother (or your Mother, for that matter) to do or not do anything against their wishes or be talked into anything against their best interest. There are enough scammers preying on the elderly without having to worry about the government sponsored ones.

You people, who believe we should leave this stuff up to nameless, faceless government hacks, frustrate me with your ignorance and stupidity. Do you really believe the government will pay a care provider to recommend what is in the best interest of your parents and not what the agency writing the check would prefer? When the Doctor is relying on the government for a paycheck, who's best interest do you think they will be looking out for? Anyone who believes this will stop with this seemingly innocent effort to help people make end-of-life plans, has not been paying attention. They are never satisfied. They continue to take more and more responsibilities from the individual, a step at a time.

You continue to give over more and more control of your lives to the monster. Will you be so enthusiastic when you are unable to find help for a dying parent or spouse or anyone who gives a damn?

Some of you sheep need to get you head out of fantasyland, stop being all giddy with delight when the government offers to help or pay for something and take a logical look at where we are headed.

If any of you wish to know where some of these alleged Conservative Christian posters come from and who inspires them to be so pushy and determined in their aproach to this and many other anti-government issues follow this link for an eye opener, think it is not so, guess again!

http://advantageconsultants.org/index.html

You people, who believe we should leave this stuff up to nameless, faceless government hacks, frustrate me with your ignorance and stupidity.

You don't seem to realize that many medical decisions are ALREADY in the hands of "nameless, faceless hacks". They're called insurance company executives. This regulation isn't allowing anyone in government to make ANY health decisions for any individual - it's merely saving individuals the cost of the special visit to the doctor most of them would have to make to discuss end-of-life planning.

VickiC,

You are correct. Insurance companies are not compassionate people. But at least there is competition between them, which likely prevents them from being as heartless as they would otherwise be. Once they have been driven out of the healthcare business and Uncle Sam is the only game in town, what do you think will happen and what will stop them from doing it?

You have a misguided trust in the compassion of the federal government. They are not paying Doctors to advise patients because they want to "save individuals the cost". It is because they want to take control of the process and they will, one step at a time.

There are many insurance companies to chose to do business with; insurance companies that must abide by laws, regulations and market conditions. I ask again, when your Doctor, any Doctor, is being paid by the federal government, which is the law, who do you think will have the final decision in your health decisions. I will help you; not you and not the Doctor.

notacommie,

That's a terribly naive point of view on insurance companies. Here's some reading for you to consider: http://wendellpotter.com/

Trusting insurance companies is at least as misguided as trusting a government agency, if not more so - because the insurance companies have an active motive to hurt you - a profit motive that the government simply does not have. If anything, it is the insurance companies that already have final decision in your health decisions, not based on the laws, regulations and market conditions, but on their costs and profit margin. It's actually illegal for the government to make a profit on your poor health.

The Free Market is a myth.

What doesn't seem to register is that the government is going to pay for this "special end-of-life doctor's visit how? With what money? With whose money? And how, oh, please tell me, is this 'visit' different from seeing your doctor who, might just be treating you for something anyways?

If you would read what is being proposed you would understand that it is simply allowing Medicare payments for counseling on these issues which is NOT currently covered. The patient and their family are still able to make the DECISIONS themselves. The patient can choose to proceed with further care, a DNR, a medical power of attorney, etc. But the patient proceeds with KNOWLEDGE of their options that they would not have had if Medicare had not covered this type of counseling.

Of course patients have always had the ability, but they have not always had the financial means to do so. The only thing this regulation does it provide the financial support for those who choose to exercise that ability.

Try turning off the TV and read the facts for yourself.

so what this regulation is, basically, is giving the patient the knowledge at TAXPAYER expense, that they can choose to end their life early? "Mr. Jones, you have terminal cancer.. do you really want to put yourself and your family through all the trauma of treatment, you selfish bastard? end it now and spare us all the trouble and expense!" What a choice!

Stupid people may take it like that, SO BE IT!

I don't watch TV. Nor do I much care what any radio entertainers have to say. I do have some common sense, the ability to think for myself and draw logical conclusions based on reality, not what I am told and a better than average knowledge of history. All of which I have used to decide that this set off warning bells with any semi-intellegent person.

Ok, then, assuming you are at least semi-intelligent, then you need to learn more about what this regulation really means. You're over-reacting.

No, not overreacting, just coming from been there already experience with the government. They start small and innocuous, no big deal, we're here to help you... and the next thing that happens is that you don't have a say in anything because the rules and regualtions have grown to the point that they're telling you what to do...

notacommie-

OK, I'll accept the proposition that you're semi-intelligent.

A familys decision is of NO consequence regarding the possibility of a person's out living a terminal desease. NONE! Their only redeaming possibility is making their loved one comfortable.

What the hell are you talking about?

I know this will come as a shock to you, but the Obama administration has not taken $12.8 from Medicare or Social Security "over the years"and have avoided "for decades" returning the funds. You see, the Obama Administrarion is not even two years old, but that is something you are not aware of, of course. Get informed.

he's talking about the article you are posting on....

tim.... please read the article. It is about trying to cut end of life costs out of the Medicare budget. They want you to have the opportunity to die cheaper.

Rasputin... Obama did not personally take that much out of the SS Fund but Pelosi, Reid and Frank on the other hand DID! Along with some of the "war mongers" in the GOP. These long term incumbents in Congress have been raping that fund for decades. Yes, their personal names are actually on the IOU's in the Social Security Fund box that is empty except for those pieces of paper. It is only an empty box with a $30 trillion dollar mandate to endlessly borrow and tax.

The bottom line is Obama and this Congress are stuck with the problem because the SS/Medicare Fund will run into deficit spending on their term. They are stuck with figuring out what to do about 50 years of Congress having an irresponsible spending party for their lobbies. The voters are going to hate whoever raises taxes or adds to the national debt.

Yeah, and that she spun into "death panels." An advance directive is the kindest, sanest thing a person can do for their family. This is something a patient can and should discuss with their doctor, and have it on record to relieve the family of the trauma of having to make a life or death decision on behalf of a family member. Every human should become informed by their doctor on the "what ifs" of their condition. For the person at risk for stroke - do you want to be revived if you've already suffered irreparable brain damage and will not be able to move or speak or think for the rest of you life?" That's something each person needs to figure out, with the input of their doctor. The only involvement of government, is to pay the office visit when the person has this sane and rational conversation.

My uncle, who died a year ago, had such a discussion with his doctor. And he let us all know that after his last trip to the hospital, that he wanted no drastic action taken to save his life. He had traveled the world and done everything he ever wanted to do. He had an undiagnosed medical condition but chose to live his life without endless testing to figure out what was wrong. He gave us the gift of telling us all, in no uncertain terms, that he could die happy, and to please not let doctors take drastic life saving measures.

When he had a heart attack, his friend was by his side at the hospital and called me to remind me of his wishes, which our family agreed to. It would not have been my choice if I were him, but it was his choice, and he made it. We did not have to wrestle with that decision. Had we done the drastic lifesaving measures, he may still be alive, as a complete invalid, but he would be very unhappy with all of us, and depressed, as his dignity would've been taken from him.

We can all be at peace, knowing he went the way he wanted to. This is not a death panel. It's a personal decision. The only role of government is to pay for the doctor visit. The government doesn't decide. The doctor doesn't decide. It's still up to the patient. So stop with the ridiculous spin.

Jack tried this and got put in jail for it. Ever hear of DNR you can sign these papers now. So what is all the fuss about?

mj899

#18.2 - I am of the opinion a lot of people voicing their opinions have no idea what advanced directives really are? I believe a lot of people have no idea what Do Not Resisitate "DNR" really means and what is involved in the process. As a former Respiratory Therapist who worked intensive care I can assure you if the people here attempting to advocate some type of governmental takeover to enduce death panels were to find themselves at deaths door and was informed they had options for a humane death, I believe the majority would take those options. Advanced Directives are not new, This is an attempt to educate the majority of the public of those directives by giving Doctors more incentives, not to force anything on anyone.....

and not only that, hospitals hate to get sued by surviving family members so in the absence of an advance health care directive they will provide 'agressive end-of-life treatment' which just drives up overall costs.

Indeed. The liberal Dimocrats are even going Nazi on free speech and attempting to control the internet and airwaves because they don't like Conservatives having an outlet to bash Liberalism and Obamabot Dimocrats. Note they are attempting to use "hate" and "internal enemy" language in an attempt to get it done. What's next? Public book burning that speak out against Liberals and Dimocrats?

Godwin's Law

/prov./ [Usenet] "As a Usenet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one." There is a tradition in many groups that, once this occurs, that thread is over, and whoever mentioned the Nazis has automatically lost whatever argument was in progress....

Turn off your TV. It's obviously impairing your ability to think rationally.

can you explain to me how this is a "death panel"? I dont understand your logic.

The clause was placed in the bill by republicans mind you and this is voluntary, the fact is republicans like Bush 1 who wanted to sterilize african women back in the 50s and the later Bush who killed all this Iraqi for no reason are the ones you need to worry about.

Herr Kaufman, I'm not buying your B.S. Get it? Kauf=buying in German.

When you wish to pick up a comparison of something to Nazi Germany, you'd better be sure you know what you are talking about. Just tossing around homebrew statements like that to expose your political bigotry makes you appear the fool (ein narr). You wouldn't know socialism even if it paid your medical bills. That's what you get for listening to those bozos on the radio with German sounding names like yourself.

PS. I am of 100% German extraction - so my parents said.

I don't know of any Dimocratic Party, I heard of one called Democrat, maybe you are talking about a third party we don't know about. Please tell us more. I don't know what is the most ignorant part of you: your ideas or your writing. I imagine when you used the word "pathetic" you were looking straight into a mirror.

Did you read the content of this at all? Do you think Medicare should simply abandon the elderly, and leave their end-of-life care solely in the hands of Insurance companies? This regulation does nothing but provide financial reimbursement so the elderly can make informed decisions. It does notthing to limit the choices that are made.

For that matter, did you know that Cap & Trade was a REPUBLICAN idea, which was successfully used in the 80's to stop acid rain?

I think he is calling Democrats "Dim"-o-crats because they are not too 'bright'. :)

The difference between Democrats and Republicans is that the fear mongering Republicans get their information from being brainwashed by religious cult leaders and egregious morons spouting hate on television and the radio. Democrats are more likely to have higher levels of education, which allows them to think for themselves by experiencing multiple perspectives and viewpoints and then basing their own opinions on sound reasoning. It's ok Laura, it's not your fault you turned out this way, you were brainwashed. It's not too late to go back to school.

government will now tell you what you can eat, how you can use the internet, how you can die, what you will be allowed to watch on TV, what your children will be taught and the progressives dance in the streets since, apparently, they know that the government knows best...Soon it will be "In the Federal Government We Trust" or "Our Government, Who Art In Heaven and Everywhere Else, Hallowed Be Thy Name'...

Laura,

Don't bother with Rasputin. He does not understand an Analogy!

You could say to him "Dumbass" and he would say. 'That is not where a brain is located I don't understand what you are saying"

Ah well! We know what happened to the real Rasputin. He was hanged, he body was dragged through the street and his penis was cut off and kept in a jar of preservative. Sound like a fun weekend!

"government will now tell you what you can eat, how you can use the internet, how you can die, what you will be allowed to watch on TV, what your children will be taught"

Credible links for these claims please.

"Soon it will be "In the Federal Government We Trust" or "Our Government, Who Art In Heaven and Everywhere Else, Hallowed Be Thy Name'..."

Predicting the future again? So what ARE those lottery numbers for tomorrow?

Dr. Gimme: Pay attention: S510 Food Safety Bill recently passed, had to have a disclaimer about gardens and organic farmers otherwise the government could come in to your garden and declare your food suspect.. Give it time, you obviously don't own anything, or grow your own food. You probably aren't aware of the police, with guns drawn, going into a a food co-op in california because they sold...raw milk. Utube had the surveillance video from the store

The FCC is working on net neutrality, setting up who's band goes where, giving preferences to Verizon etc.

Then we have this article...all very innocuous on the surface...

rather like how the income tax was only supposed to last for a short time...

Mygirl: YOU pay attention and not to the conspiracy theories, okay? Read the text of the bill for yourself: http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=s111-510&tab=summary There is an amendment to safeguard family farms and gardens. So now you're complaining that they were protected? And yes, I own a home, a practice, and I do grow some of my own food. And when did YouTube become the definitive source for ANYTHING?

You obviously don't understand net neutrality. Try reading here for more information: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/12/21/AR2010122106110.html

I'm still waiting on the credible sources for your previous claims.

Glenn Beck is a clown. Just ask him. A very rich clown, taking advantage of people like you who apparently don't want to have to think for themselves.

All the media is owned and lobby controlled. Only fools get their news from television. The same couple corporations own all of them.

If we're talking about male liberals (too sissified to be considered "men"), if they pound something, it's not likely to be sand.

dave has never met a republican male he didnt like there real toe tapping men

Obviously, you did not read the article.

When my Mother passed, Jan 2005, she had been on life support for 2 weeks at my request. After I allowed the removal, she went quietly and peacefully. (She had requested not to have it but I prevailed due to her doctors' continued promises that they were 'making progress'.)

I saw the billing later - I was shocked to see how much those same doctors made for the 2 weeks. With the hospital bills, it came to over $1,000,000. She was a retired Federal employee with Blue Cross & Medicare insurance. They paid the entire amount, I paid nothing. (The taxpayers paid it!)

So what makes you think these doctors would give her her any better advice now just because Medicare will now pay them a fee? They can make the same empty promises they made to you and still bill Medicare & BC for their million on top of the extra fee at taxpayer expense! What is the logic here ????

Laura: the doctors might not give her better advice now, but she is much more able to consider the options and make the decisions now because she is not stressed out.

An example: A beloved family member is on his death bed. A doctor says that there's one more procedure to try. It has a 50/50 chance of working and costs $250,000. If you're deciding this while your loved one is dying in front of you and after not having eatten or slept for days due to your vigil by the bedside you'll probably scream, "Do it!"

If you're deciding in the abstract before anyone you love actually needs the procedure you'll ask for more data on the procedure, try to understand if the 50% had some trait in common, consider the financial weight that would fall on the rest of your family, and so on.

The Obama policy is trying to put people in the second position so decisions are not made under stress.

new mexico... thank you for sharing your experience with your Mother. People do not realize that behind Social Security the Federal retirement and benefit system is the largest drain on the economy. It literally dwarfs two wars. It is also completely unfunded. It is listed in the neighborhood of over $10 trillion in promised but unfunded entitlements. As the boomers go into federal retirement It will pass the national debt very soon.

The Federal Government cannot possibly collect enough taxes to pay for all their benefits and retirements. The simply and quietly go onto the national deficit each year sneaking through Congress without a word.

So many posts on this site show accute paranoia. As for the remark about social security being totally unfunded ? that remark is a bald faced LIE! The government has been "borrowing" from social security trust funds for years to pay for WAR. Get your heads out of your arses.

So now a life is not priceless? It's only worth saving if it would cost under a certain amount of money to save? You would blame the grieving family member for ignoring the dollar amount when the doctor asks them whether to save a life? Wow... just wow...

If life was priceless it wouldn't cost anything to "save" them.

My wife is an oncology nurse and we've had a number of family members die slow lingering deaths recently, so we've got some experience in this area.

I have never seen millionaires post before. You must have more than $3,500,000 to even be taxed on an estate. I think your heirs will do fine.

That is not for you to decide Hanny ol boy!

No, Hannie sides with Barney "radical homosexuality" Franks and Wiesenthal when it comes to the government taking your money..."hell, honey, you're dead and your heirs don't really deserve or need what's left of your money, so, fork it over and let us spend it."

I think a lot of these "death panel" people enjoy bad mouthing liberals so much that they refuse to consider the obvious reality that we all make more intelligent decisions when we aren't in the midst of a chaos situation.

But it is the families decision not the governments you dumba$$

And under this regulation, it will CONTINUE to be the decision of the individual and his/her family - the government will have nothing to do with it.

believe it some people are so filled with hate that anything negative about this administration is mana

Vicki: The proper response to the government having nothing to do with it is...yet

The prime time to get consumers to blow huge amounts of money is when they're so emotionally distraught and sleep deprived they can't think logically.

How dare the liberals deprive the medical industry to this prime time to profit by informing families of their various options BEFORE they find themselves in a ghastly crisis moment?

Can you express that to your Republican friends? Really sometimes I think that they intentionally distort and mislead. We need sensible Republicans.

I agree, jchastn. Maybe the conservatives who are so against this legislation have never been in the horrible position of having to make a life-and-death decision about a relative. They don't seem to get the reality that at these times we disintegrate into chaos and are in no condition to make huge financial (and ethical) decisions that will affect our families for years.

They SOMETIMES mislead and distort? You must be joking, it's their way of life!

at least they have a life. Maybe you should try to get one!

Laura- read my response to the thread above this one. Don't you think you make better decisions for your family when you AREN'T under stress? I sure feel that way about my decisions.

I am not arguing about people making better decisions under very stressful circumstances. Individuals are educted about healthcare proxy,advance care directives and power of attorney. These should be discussed & decided optimally when a person is healthy & of clear mind. However, once a patient comes to the hospital will a terminal condition it is the JOB of the doctor or doctor(s) to discuss with the family members and the patient (if the have mental capcity) to make all decisions, including DNR/DNI status. The doctors have no right to get extra money for doing what they took an oath to do & provide the best healthcare possible @ all stages of life for their patients. No extra money is needed to have a simple discussion with a patient & their family.

Amen Dee!

It only doesn't make sense to spend the money if you think the value of a life can be determined by a dollar amount! Heck, if that's the case why not spend any "precious" money on human life?!

So what you're saying is that medical care should be free?

Because I'd agree.

No, he is saying patients should not be alowed to consult with doctors concerning their condition as the consult is more valuable than their dignity, health or life. Try to read what he is saying man. If this consult is not free these people are NOT worth the time or money!

BTW, I disagree most emphatically.

markinCR

He is not saying what you advocate in #25.11 but it is amazing that opinion is what you heard. Reminds me of that commercial when the you girl walks into the kitchen states to her mother she just got accepted into a prestigeous school. The father sitting at the table on the other hand heard something different, he heard she just got accepted into a very expensive school. So it all comes down to perception. You percieve he is saying patients "Should Not Be Allowed to Consult with Doctors". Well if that is what you percieve, who am I to attempt to get you to see the truth, believe what you want.

However, once a patient comes to the hospital will a terminal condition it is the JOB of the doctor or doctor(s) to discuss with the family members and the patient (if the have mental capcity) to make all decisions, including DNR/DNI status.

No extra money is needed to have a simple discussion with a patient & their family.

I see the disconnects here.

1. DEE is talking about a conversation in the hospital during the actual end of life event.
2. DEE thinks this is a simple conversation, like your tests came back normal. Your fine. See you next year for your physical.

While the rest of us are talking about having this consult when one is "healthy", and has all ones faculties. Maybe YEARS before the decisions become an issue. Sitting in the Doctors office and requiring an hour or two to go over all the issues of end of life decisions, actions/prognosis scenarios, and so forth to clarify when action is desired and when it is not in "any" possible future scenario. So that this conversation isn't taking place while you are brain dead in the hospital bed after a car accident tomorrow or a stroke at 90.

What are your DNR desires for a major heart problem resulting in significant damage vs a blunt force trauma to the chest that stops an otherwise perfectly healthy heart?

I could go on but why bother, it is just government take over of your health care decisions anyway. sarc/

It is not amazing or a stretch. This is concerning if a patient, already having the government pay the larger part of every single procedure, perscription or consult, should risk the governments involvement in 1 more consult. He said no way. He would rather the patient have no information than that the patient receive it from someone being paid by the government.

Can it possibly be seen any other way?

I wouldn't be as disturbed as I am if this conversation was strictly between my personal MD and me, but when the bureaucrats of Washington DC, including the supreme bureaucrat of all, our current POTUS, is thrown into the mix, God help us all.

It's funny, I hear that a lot, yet I have no storied about how any government stooge ever did anything that interfered with my doctor and I... but I have a boatload of stories about how my insurance company denied claims for perscriptions, claims for treatment, and hosed up my wife's treatments.... so while you may fear what the government might do, I KNOW that the insurance companies are PURE EVIL. So pray to your God about THEM.

I have a prescription that comes in bulk form and in blister pack. My insurance company will cover the bottle, but not the blister pack. It is the same medication. One comes loose. The other comes in a marked container so that it is easy to determine if that days pill has been taken. Please explain why the loose form is covered and the blister pack is not.

Is this not the insurance company bureaucrat interfering with me and my doctor?

I do not see where there is any indication that the coverage is based on the details of the conversation. Please point out where the minutes of the discussion must be included with the request for payment.

My insurance company has insisted that the pills I get are 10mg pills, instead of the 5mg pills I used to take. I have to take 15mg, twice a day. This means that I have to split a pill every day. Because of this my dosage depends on my shaky fingers getting the damned oblong pill into a pill cutter and chopping it in the middle. Sometimes, sad to say, the damned thing shifts, and I get a big chunk and a sliver. All because the Insurance Company says so.