This is BS! The college is abusing its power and denying these girls an education. There are hundreds of medical journals with pictures of medical personnel with body parts for anyone to look at. No patient was pictured or identified. You can find the same in any magazine, newspaper or internet posting. Does the teacher have no life to go searching on facebook to see what the students post?

With that said, I also think facebook is ridiculous. Who cares what you are doing at any given minute of every day? What makes these girls think the world cares if they took their picture with a placenta? If people are so self absorbed to feel the need to share details of their daily lives with the world, then I feel sorry for them.

Taking the picture itself is an unethical thing for a medical professional. there's no telling what they would take picture of once they have access to patients - doing their private chores or getting treatment that the world outside should not see. I'm all for keeping (and leaving) a facebook or any such pages private and not (professionally) acting on the displays on a private page, no matter who is given access to it, but picturing someone else's property and using it without proper consent should be punishable

Facebook - where supposed adults are allowed to act like 5-7 year olds. "This one can be my friend but but you can't."

Walsh, who kicked them out would support them for readmission next fall? So how bad is it that she would kick them out now but let them com back in several months? Oh that's right - it means more money for the institution - no refunds now and more fees next term.

Well I just can't see these girls being expelled for such a trivial thing as this. I think some administrator is so worried that some self-righteous, holier-than-thou old krone, or Glenn Beck type is going to make a fuss about it, so the easiest thing to do is just ruin the lives of three girls.

Personally, I think anyone who would be upset with this, should be fed a placenta sandwich (without the mustard).

Hey, Dr Oz displays human parts on national TV! So what's the big deal? Facebook is ridiculous. Who cares what you are doing at any given minute of every day?

This sounds like another, freedom to privacy versus freedomof speech issue. Throwing in some over reacting, Due process, lack of thinking before posting. I have to agree that it makes me wonder what they may take pictures of latter on in their careers and decide to post, but we are ( they are ) not there yet. But for some reason , I kinda get the feeling that there is a lot more to this story then has been printed or made public. And I do believe that they are not professionals till they graduate and take the lic. state board examines. They are LEARNING to be professionals.

Tes,

I work in a medical lab and I see absolutely nothing wrong with what they did. It's a placenta for crying out loud, not a cadaver (which would carry the possibility of identification if the face was photographed). Is this the 13th century? Hell, in the 1800's it was not unusual for medical students to be photographed with cadavers in various "humerous" positions, as a joke and rite of passage. Not that I or anyone in their right mind would condone this today, but it's pure hyperbole to say that this qualifies as unprofessional behavior. What a joke. It's a body part. One that I'm sure immediately went into the nearest biohazard bin and then off to be autoclaved and disposed of. It is virtually unidentifiable unless you either saw it removed from the patient personally, it was labled or you ran a full DNA profile on it as well as the person it went to. Seriously people, get a grip. HIPPA is a good law and was needed in many ways, but I can see how some people are learning to abuse this law (as always seems to happen). Seriously, you really think this will open the flood gates for doctors, nurses or other in the medical field to exploit their patients? Come on, that too is pure hyperbole.

How about if the patient find out or they name that patient on face book how about if that patient is famous, can those people suit the nurses and school or hospital? how about the hospital removed someones leg or eye would that be ok to show tha in face book?

Carlos,

How would this patient find out? How? Are they going to order a full DNA profile on it? For real? Come on....

Vault: I agree totally. When I 1st. read this, I wondered what kind of horrible act these students had done. A placenta picture? O.K. Bad taste. But expulsion?

I remember in nursing school talking with an instructor about what students had been thrown out for besides bad grades. My fav. one was a girl who, during her "locked-down ward," psych. rotation, fell for this guy (patient) & SNEAKED him out, she with him & went on the run. Needless to say, she was expelled when they caught up with them-besides the criminal charges.

That sure beats showing a placenta on Facebook!

A proper education is about more than simply instilling knowledge, it should also include ethics and judgment. Military basic training sets high standards of behavior to test a trainee's ability to maintain discipline, schools such as this need to do the same.

What these students did calls their maturity and judgment into question, and this needs to be addressed before they are trusted with real patients.

The people on this board that feel that the school is being too harsh would probably be the first to sue if these students went on to be nurses and breached their confidentiality in the future.

However, I also think they should be allowed to re-apply and continue their education next year in a probationary status. Perhaps they will learn an important lesson from this set-back and go on to become more mature and competent nurses.

Medical ethics is a part of all curriculum. That being said, the instructor had the opportunity to tell the students that it would be unethical to do this and did not, therefore the instructor shares the blame. They should have gotten a reprimand and not thrown out of the school. There is a serious shortage of nurses.

dan42day, You make a valid point with the Military training but at the same time- the military does not have an "off with their head" mentality. Usually there are LoRs, Article 15s, and up and including court martial. There are due processes that are suppose to be adhere to for good reason. Mistake are suppose to be turned into a "learning experience".
Sometimes all it takes is being pulled into the supervisor's office and get a good stern lecture that leaves the soldier a bit more wiser the next time.

What ever happened to "teachable moments" anyways? Poor instructors perhaps? Admins with constipation issues?

Oh for pete's sake this is ridiculous. It's a placenta. Who gives a whoop?? Seriously!!

This is ridiculous! This overreaction probably happened because it was a school in Kansas. This state is out there when it comes to anti-choice propaganda. (has anyone traveled their highways? There are hundreds of miles littered with anti-choice billboards) They are probably overly sensitive because a placenta is involved with a fetus. This state sounds beyond backwards.

LOL Vooda, you're probably right, sadly.

most, if not all - specimens which hospitals, clinics or even textbooks, come from donations. The fact that someone gave up the specimens ... for teaching rather than having them incinerated comes with the implied if not legally binding agreement that they will be treated with respect.

Posting pieces of a human being on "facebook" does not seem to be within the guidelines of respectful use.

Whether the instructor specifically stated not to put the picture on "facebook"is not even close to the point. You don't usually have to tell a nursing student not post pictures of dissections, hemorrhoids or burn scarred patient either - somethings are considered common sense, based on the rule ... would you want your ________— <insert anatomical part here> posted on-line, in a non-medically related context or publication, without your consent?

Do we need to define common sense, common decency? Has society, common courtesy fallen that far?

I agree with you ... why would you even have the need to post this on your FB. Give me a break, they are not:

"They are mature, I would say serious, professionals. I've interviewed the other women. They all impress me as serious, career-minded women who are utterly stunned at what's happened to them."

They have the maturity level of 13 year olds...

These students on their own were sharing their experience as students in a positive manner. A school can only wish for this. I wonder how the person who donated the placenta feels? I think it is likely they WANT to support and promote the same positive experience the students have shared.

Their has to be more to this than this article reveals I hope it is the result of the bad judgement of one person and the institution and the courts will correct that mistake.

It remains to be seen what the actual rules were in regard to social media postings. Certainly these students deserved due process before being expelled, at the very least a hearing.

If the article is accurate and the students were summarily expelled without due process, I very much doubt the expulsion will stand, nor should it.

As long as the students were not using the placenta in a parody or distasteful manner in the photo's and the intent was to show others what their training involves, then I feel that the school is severely overreacting to what the students have done!
That is not to say that the school shouldn't be able to take any action at all towards the students, if they have a policy against photos during clinical's then they should be held responsible for what the policy dictates.
I find it hard to believe that a school would have a policy to suspend students for taking photos of their clinical's that were of a serious nature and not at all demeaning or insulting!
This is typical of most any situation that happens in the United States anymore though, overreaction to the 10th power and a finding of guilty before a trial or hearing

This sounds like a typical knee-jerk reaction where action was taken without thinking things through. If,as the article states, the school had no policy prohibiting taking pictures, then they had no grounds to expel these students. The fact that they asked if it was OK were not told not to do it leads me to believe that this is in fact the case. In any case, every school I now of has some kind of procedure for a disciplinary hearing that must be followed before any action is taken. This whole thing sounds like one individual in some position of authority was upset by the posting of the pictures and took it on themselves to take unilateral action without going through the proper disciplinary procedures. These nursing students should be reinstated immediately and the supervisor responsible for this over reaction should be removed from any future supervisory role or duties. While I do not personally find posting these pictures to be in good taste, it does not appear that the students violated any school policy, particularly since they asked permission ahead of time and were not told they could not do it.

For those who think that the donor might get upset, it is highly unlikely that the donor would have any idea that this was there placenta. Also, in most cases, once a donation is made the donor no longer has any say in how the school makes use of the donation. Again, what these students did may be considered bad taste by many, it apparently did not violate any rules. The pictures were included as part of a post describing their experience at this particular clinical site. The pictures themselves were not disrespectful in how they depicted the subject matter.

For those who think that the donor might get upset, it is highly unlikely that the donor would have any idea that this was there placenta

The donor can't even find out if it was theirs, all the donors are protected by anonymity.

This is all about nothing.

I do not see how this is disrespectful.

The simple reality is that they wanted to share an experience. The photo is only disrespectful if the experience itself is disrespectful.

I have seen many movies and photos of surgeries and other medical procedures. While I have not seen the photo they took, most of those out there do not disrespect the patient (whether human or animal). In fact, many are valuable research and teaching tools.

As far as we know the picture was taken and posted without the consent of the woman from whom the placenta was delivered. It was an incredibly insensitive and unethical breach of patient privacy (whether or not the patient can be identified). This act was not done for any reasonable educational purpose but for the purpose of entertaining the students' Facebook friends. Some action of the school was justified although, given these circumstances, I'm not sure expulsion was the appropriate action. This individual's lawyer is incorrect, they are not mature and serious minded professionals but have much learning to do regarding how professionals act and treat their patients.

So you'd be OK with a picture of your disease ravaged genitals on some nursing students Facebook page as long as they didn't provide a name or a picture of your face then?

"They're not giggly teenagers," Cohen said of the four expelled students. "They are mature, I would say serious, professionals.

That makes it even worse Mr. Cohen. You've made it clear that they don't blame youth or inexperience on their violation of medical privacy laws(that's the big deal), so what is excuse is left for them? Just plain stupidity then I guess. Cetainly wouldn't want any of these ladies taking care of my loved ones or myself while waiting for their next photo-op.

I'd be suprised if they win. We had nurses in out area get canned for taking home patient X-ray photos(you know, of the wierd stuff people get stuck in their bum) which violated patient pricavy laws..

umm... a placenta is not a diseased ravaged genital.

pla·cen·ta

 /pləˈsɛntə/ Show Spelled[pluh-sen-tuh] Show IPA

–noun, plural -tas, -tae

 /-ti/ Show Spelled[-tee] Show IPA.
1.
Anatomy, Zoology . the organ in most mammals, formed in the lining of the uterus by the union of the uterine mucous membrane with the membranes of the fetus, that provides for the nourishment of the fetus and the elimination of its waste products.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/placenta

It is nothing but waste from a woman giving birth.

Excuse me! I am a nurse and I find their actions distasteful. Recently there was a picture posted on Facebook of a military member in a surgical operating room with a amputated leg. This body part was not labelled with the patient name or identifiable. The military brought UCMJ action against the individual and the person taking the picture. This is the same as these girls showing lack of good judgement, poor taste, and insentivity. This harkens back to the question that always surrounds the medical field...just because you can, should you? The instructor who did not immediately tell the students NO, should be fired, she showed poor judgement also.

Yes, the nursing field had nursing shortage, but it is not due to people getting kick out of nursing school. It is due to the poor pay, little respect, high patient load per nurse, inadequate benefits. Hospitals are always looking at the bottom line and when it come to trying to make a profit they look at nurses for cutting hours or pay. They NEVER ask the doctors, could the take just a little less money, NO they screw the nurses over on pay, increasing patient loads, time and benefits.

Also, the next time you go the the hospital for addmission, visit a friend or family member, think of the nursing staff that probably has not gotten lunch or a break during their whole shift. On top of that they probably haven't been to the restroom since they got to work. And they probably won't during their whole 12 hours shift. Why is this happening? Well you have patients and their family members who will not get off the call light. They think that they are the only patient this nurses has. Wrong, on the average a floor nurse usually has any where from 6-10 patients. These are sick patients and they all require extensive care. You don't come to the hospital to get rest. YOu come to the hospital to receive treatment. No where on the addmission paper work did it say you where going to get sleep, eat or get a shower. If you want rest you go home. The hospital is not a hotel so you and your significant other cannot have sex in your hospital room, nor can a hooker come vist you.

So the next time you are in the hospital and you are complaining to the nurse about something...guess what, if you have time to set there and complain you probably need to be dicharged home. Because I can bet there are other patients the nurse is taking care of that are tooo sick to set there and complain.

And this week while you are at work and going out to lunch or going to the restroom, think of that nurse on the floor of you local hospital that; 1 doesn't get the option to go out for lunch, or probably not getting lunch. 2 probably has not been to the restroom since they got to work.

I have people come up to me saying they want to be a nurse. I say ok, if you can understand these basic concepts of nursing and can accept them then you will last in nursing. 1. The doctor writes the order to clean up the sh@# (code brown), and you have to clean the sh@# up. Not housekeeping you. 2. In the patient's eyes you are nothing more than a glorified waitress and you don't get any tips at the end of your service to them (STAT coke, jello on the way). 3. Don't trust patients they will lie and get you in trouble or fired. 4. Don't trust the doctors to have your back. The first opportunity they get they will put a knife into it. Lastly, don't trust your fellow nurses (nurses do eat their young). They will set you up for failure if just one does not like you.

This is nursing, until there are more men in the profession it will not change.

These are the real reasons nurses leave nursing and there is a nursing shortage.

"Was it professional? No. But does a picture of an unidentified placenta warrant the loss of their livelihood? This is what we call a teachable moment in education circles. I am sad that the administrators of this particular community college are neglecting to see that and I am happy at least one of these young ladies has chosen to fight for her rights." Julie you are right. A teachable moment it is, and a reprimand would have been sufficient, especially if discussed with all students at the school. I am a professional nurse of almost 20 years. The excitement and joy of discovery during nursing school is a wonderful thing. While I can understand them wishing to share their experience with (likely) their first placenta, it was simply a bad choice. There is no way to identify the donor, and it was not displayed in a disrespectful manner (as one poster noted). They shared, they shouldn't have, tell them to never do it again, end of story. To destroy their future is unforgiveable. What most posters do not know is how very difficult it is to get into nursing school now. Almost a 4.0 GPA is required, and many times they have been waiting a semester or two...or more to be accepted. Anyone in nursing school has worked very, very hard for it. These are not future nurses that will take their professional responsibilities lightly.

Well said Nursey.

OH gee, a placenta! Wow, now that's a real talking point. Who CARES? It's not a pretty thing, and it's not anything especially revealing. Has anyone else looked at what's on Facebook? A (unlabeled and unidentified) placenta? Demi Moore bragged about how she buried her placentas in her garden for fertilizer, and I didn't hear anyone getting all upset over that.

I think this goes hand in hand with the ban of other social interactions, like breast feeding in public. Oh wow, someone's offended. Big whoopin' deal. Does anybody here know that chickens actual expel eggs from the nether regions of their bodies? I'll bet that little bit of information upsets someone. How about that steak? Does anyone realize that a living, breathing cow was knocked in the head and dissected for that tasty morsel? (I love steak and eggs, BTW.) If "we" are this sensitized to the real world, maybe "we" should go lock ourselves in a room and pretend that reality doesn't exist.

The school needs to get a grip, learn a better system of communication, quit being a bunch of wusses, and actually come into the reality of the medical world, (and it's an ugly world, at that.) The rest of "us" would be wise to know that as things continue to get worse, we will need to learn to bite the bullet, and accept that not everything is all pretty and roses. Harsh reality is the coming trend. Get used to it.

This was supposed to be a learning experience that the girls were attempting to share. I can see what they learned very clearly.

@Julie--get hold of your righteous indignation. These students behaved in a childish, unintelligent manner. Do you really want them as your nurse while you are sick? I wouldn't.

While #2.11 lists the reasons for nurse scarcity, those are the basic reasons for a shortage in most fields that suffer short-staffing. And for the working environment (being snubbed from all around), it happens in all offices. It's become a lose-lose world - you get harassed and lack strength to resist it, go harass someone who you think cannot rise against it. I'd suggest you take your bathroom breaks every so often; if you fell sick it is like increasing the number needing care not just by one. But I don't think thiis practice of compulsory tipping should be extended to hospitals as well, compensation for difficult work should reflect in paychecks.

And in spite of the lack of adaquate workforce in nurse jobs, people that feel it is ethical to post pictures of their work that involves other people for promotion/entertainment should never be allowed to get close to anyone that's weak and needs care.

The school of nursing I attended would have probably made the same decision in this case. But maybe not for this one incident.

During the four year nursing program I attended, the professors not only monitored the academic and skills progress of each student but also how the student would "represent" the school after entering the work force. Even conduct outside of the school environment was considered.

One incident might be a teachable moment. After that, the wiser students knew that they were being more closely watched. Multiple issues meant certain expulsion. Once the school decided a student was a poor representative of the school's reputation, they would look for any reason to get rid of them. A few of my classmates, who had incurred several previous infractions were expelled just weeks before graduation based on photos taken at an off campus party.

So, I'm just wondering if these students were already on the school's bad side before the seemingly benign facebook pics.

As a current nursing student I believe what the unversity did was correct. If you are a good, competent nurse; you will notice an overabundance of idiots in nursing school who should never make it. These people obviously fit into this catagory. It doesn't matter if the donor isn't labeled or their conduct in the picture (although I highly doubt they were serious and professional looking in the photo) the picture is of someone elses body part dontated for medical purposes and not for someone elses facebook pleasure.

Look at it this way, how many women are going to see this story and decide not to donate placentas due to this type of unprofessional behavior? I am from a school with some very strict guidlines within our nursing program and something such as this would never fly.

Since they are in their clinicals they have had plenty of other nursing courses prior to this one and they should be very aware of what is ethical and unethical and what will get them in trouble. It is drilled into your head day 1 about confidentiality and you shouldn't bring anything home with you. These women wouldn't last long as nurses anyways.

Also, another comment mentioned this type of conduct should be used to show consequences of misconduct. It does, to all the other students who didn't participate and are still in nursing school.

Bbybmr

I think you need a career change. Nursing seems to have treated you harshly. You sound like one of the ones you don't want to ask a question of because they will bit your head off.

To others in the profession, I have a deep respect fore you all. It is not an easy job , and they now have you doing so much writting to CYA not only yourselves , but the doctors and hospitals , that the time you have for patient cares is limited and yes there are not enough of you all. Keep your heads high there are more of us out there that hold you all in high esteem and with lots of respect for what you do, they those that don't

On the contrary, I am a really nice and caring person irl and get a lot of people always coming to me for help. The problem is I don't have time for stupidity. If you want to act like an idiot, the door is right there. In a field where you can hold someones life in your hands, their isn't time to dick around.

fwc577

You will note that my comment was directed at...Bbybmr not you.

I tended to agree with your comments, as I said before I have great respect for the profession

So, all you "nurses" (if you even really are in fact nurses) in YOUR righteous indignation have a problem with cutting up various body parts in anatomy class? Do you take issue with the photos taken during autopsy or for text books (which anyone can buy, BTW)? I used to go in for my lab classes after all the med students had been there and there would be bits of cerebellum in the sink drains. It was gross, but not disrespectful. Should I have done a full DNA profile on the brain tissue and found the next of kin to tell them how disrespectful these med students were? ***eye roll** How on earth is this unethical? Good god, you all are acting like she took a picture with a severed head then gave the name, address and phone number of its surviving family members. How on EARTH is this a violation of patient privacy? How? And how does one go from photographing a placenta to comparing it to pictures of diseased gentialia (BTW, been on something called the internet lately? Theres tons of those if you wish to see them all, just google it) But I guess this too indicates the denigration of society, right? Good lord. "waa waa, body parts are sacred" is this seriously the f'in 13th century when they weren't allowed to study the human body because it was "desecration" and "disrespectful". Good lord, get over it already. It was a dead lump of tissue. And ugly to boot. And furthermore, when she was told she shouldn't have done it, she took it down immediately and closed her account. This to me indicates she meant nothing hurtful (or unprofessional) by her actions. Good god I hate this country sometimes.

@fwc577; I think he meant BbyBmr.

@Bbbmr; I felt for you up until the point when you said nowhere in the paperwork does it say you're going to eat.

So you'd be OK with a picture of your disease ravaged genitals on some nursing students Facebook page as long as they didn't provide a name or a picture of your face then?

Well, I would never put myself in the position of having diseased ravaged genitals but if I did and it was posted without my name or identification, I probably wouldn't know or care. Seriously, who could look at it and say "oh, I know who that genitalia belongs to". Seriously, hyperbole. Look it up. It seems to be the popular mental condition today.

And Bbybmr,

You need to get out of the nursing profession, STAT. In fact, if you could post your name and what facility you work for so the rest of us can avoid ever having ourselves or a loved one taken "care" of by you, Im sure we would all appreciate it. Bitter much? Just what I'm looking for in a nurse....

My cousin is a nurse and a damn good one. I have never, never heard her say anything like the vile crap you espoused here. Seriously, get out now, before you kill someone. No joke.

to Bbybmr (#2.11)......as a registered nurse of over 35 years, I would have to say that I think I would rather NOT have you as my nurse if I were a patient, and I would NOT like to be one of your co-workers. You will give nursing a bad name before any effect by these young ladies in the placenta incident. It seems you hate your job, don't enjoy caring for your patients, and hate the physicians you work with. There are many ways you can use your nursing education.......you need to change departments, change your employer, or get out of nursing all together. Everyone can have a bad day, but we get over it.....you seem to dwell on them. If you have this attitude every day at work that you have shown here to us, it is no wonder you are overworked....who would want to work as a team with you?? And patients can see right away that you hate every minute you spend with them....if they don't use their call lights you will probably just ignore them. I use my knowledge every day in my work with patients and their families....by caring for them physically, teaching them, giving them an outlet for their fears, and being a proactive resource for them with their physicians. I love what I do and wouldn't have missed it for the world.

I came from an "old school" school of nursing. The very first day, the Dean said, "Look around you. At the end of sixty days, half of the people in this room will no longer be here."

She was right.

Welcome to Nursing 101, version 1966. I can't speak for nursing schools today (because trust me when I tell you that they were much tougher then than now), but IF one of us had even breathed the fact that we were THINKING about doing something like this they probably would have made us the next clinical dissection specimen. Of course, this was in the days of white caps, seven piece uniforms that were hemmed at a certain point from the floor with no regard to the wearer's height so that when we stood in a row the pinafores were all in an even line in the picture, and you BETTER be wearing a girdle because they were going to check at some point during the day and it wasn't optional. It was the eighth piece of the uniform.

We were doing patient care six weeks into the program, and we practiced procedures on each other. And, as fwc577 noted, we were dead serious about what we were doing and it was NEVER time to dick around.

Despite what they think, nurses today do not have the investment that we did in nursing. We ate, slept, lived, and breathed nursing. We pretty much did after graduation as well. Nurses have fought and clawed for years to overcome the General Hospital mindset of the public toward nurses and achieve the professional status that they deserve. It hasn't happened yet, and if anything it is worse now than it was then. This kind of behavior just makes it harder on those who hold their profession to its highest standards.

However, I do think the instructor has some guilt in this. She assumed that they were joking, apparently, and rather than ripping them a new one as an old school instructor would have (even suggesting something like that would have resulted in confinement to the dorm except for classes and meals for a long, long time), she blew them off. Clearly, someone did not do a decent job ofteaching them professional behavior and medical ethics.

Should they have been expelled? Tough call, since social media is so pervasive in our society and perhaps the school should have been more specific regarding what they expect. They certainly were with us. However, I can't say that some sort of discipline wasn't warranted, because this kind of thing should never have even been considered.

As a nurse for over 30 years who just retired, I concur with everything you said.

Retired R.N.: Your post made my day & made me smile (even with a much needed knee replacement-lol). I will vouch for you that EVERY WORD YOU WROTE IS THE GOD'S TRUTH! Before they shut down the Hospital Schools of Nursing for the 2 yr. Jr./Community College or the 4 yr. B.S. programs, nurses had TONS of more Clinical Time aka "Floor Time" rather than they do today. In my opinion & many others, too, they were better nurses, more likely to see developing problems with a patient. Granted, the hospitals used them for "scutt" work & got a lot of free labor, but boy what nurses they turned out.

Be proud of the education you received. I am, even though the instructors were unbelieveably tough. When I graduated, our school was in the top 5 in our State & we had a 100% pass rate on our State Boards-1st TIME! But it came at a very stressful price; I can't say I liked/loved every minute.

We ALL make mistakes when we are young & wisdom is an "acquired skill" like it or not. Personally, I would have "reamed them a new one" if they had been my students & the instructor would have been in my office for "a little chat." But maybe, just maybe, they might take this into their careers as a "teachable" moment in which, thank God, no one was injured. Much better this kind of incident which will spread at the speed of light through the school, & help others to NOT make mistakes of judgement or to realize the seriousness of just what they are studying, than to have them injure/kill someone.

I still don't see how social media being pervasive in our society trumps federal HIPAA privacy laws.

And as for teaching materials that have photos I guess no one has ever considered that consent forms were signed so that the materials could be used legally?

And dixiesunrise61 I know what what a placenta is. You can Google and cut & paste. Good for you. The point is posting a personal medical photo regardless to whether you can identify the patient from what's in the photo. It's against the law. Federal HIPAA privacy. Use Google to look that up.

It isn't a HIPAA issue. If the placenta had been identified regarding who/where it came from, THEN it would be a HIPAA issue. This apparently was not the case. The issue here is professional conduct and professional judgement, and their being students is not, or was not when I was a student, a mitigating factor. If anything, we were expected to be far more straitlaced regarding ethics issues than practicing nurses were. You could never err too far on the side of caution on issues like that.

And my nursing program was not only a hospital based program, it was a SOUTHERN BAPTIST Hospital based program. Our instructors were, for the most part, much like Hitler and we were expected to like that.

Let's look at this from the viewpoint of them being through school and being a now employed nurse. If a nurse were to do something like this, should they loose their job? Imo, yes. It does not display one ounce of professionalism.

The same standards should apply to nursing students. If a student makes a medication error, has a patient fall, etc. they face disciplinary action (and if it happens too many times, they will be expelled from the program). There was a need for discipline in this situation and imo, dismissal was the appropriate form.

Our instructors were, for the most part, much like Hitler and we were expected to like that.

There are still some nursing schools that are like that today :D I graduated three years ago from a private university. We had very strict standards on everything...uniform, grades (B's or better), acting professional, etc. I am very thankful for the teaching I received from my "Hitler like" instructors. It may have been hell at the time but now, I know I am a good nurse.

If you people are really that disturbed about a picture of a placenta, you would not last even 5 minutes of med school.

Endo, that is not the point. The point is professionalism.

How? Because it was on facebook or because you actually think there is something wrong with taking a picture of a placenta?

In both cases it has less to do with professionalism and more to do with some "moral elitism" so many people seem to have.

Also, would this be different if it was not human but instead some pig or rat organ?

There are no school rules on this issue. There are no professional rules on this issue. There are no ethical rules on this issue. Like it or not, this student will win her lawsuit.

While facebook is not the best place to put any kind of picture, there is no ethical issue here.

You should also search the internet for medical photos. Then come back and tell me that a bunch of cells from an unknown person is "disturbing".

Claims of "moral elite-ism"? Sounds like something someone would say when they didn't know which fork to use at a formal dinner.

No one said you couldn't eat with your fingers, the issue only surfaced once you noticed that everyone else can tell the difference between a back yard Barbaque and a formal dinner.

Appropriate behavior, based on the setting may ask more of its participants than the bare minimum - sometimes doing the right thing requires more than shoveling food in their mouth as fast as possible - other people in attendance have a rights too.

No one has yet to say why it is so wrong to have a picture of a placenta.

Yet, so many people think it is wrong. If someone can reasonably explain why it is ethically wrong, I will stop posting.

There is no privacy violation, no HIPPA violation, no rule violation. These pictures were no taken because of some perversion. These pictures were meant to be educational in nature and to exhibit and experience.

How is it wrong? Because you say so is not good enough.

Ok...

You start with the utensils furthest from your plate, then work your way in as each additional course is presented.

If you are ever in doubt - watch the host, they probably will use the right fork, utensil, glass or goblet.

So,

What you are saying is that it is wrong to photograph a placenta because it is wrong to use a soup spoon to mix cream and sugar in to your coffee?

Retired RN, actually, in a more strict interpretation of HIPPA law, what they did was a violation because you don't need to have an actual patient name attached to the incident, simply the location (which can be as broad as a state) and medical condition is enough and this has been successfully litigated before. HIPPA training is actually mandated to cover this specific area.

Given that in the medical field itself 1 violation can easily warrant a dismissal (many institutions have a zero tolerance for intentional violations), the nursing program wasn't too far out of line (assuming the patient didn't waive their rights under HIPPA).

Mitchell

I doubt if HIPAA was the issue, but rather common sense and, again, professionalism. Agreed, in the strictest interpretation, yes, it could be called a violation, but having been a nurse since dirt was a rock, my guess is that the program is questioning whether these "girls" have the personality attributes that make up a good nurse. It's not all in the books.

As for HIPAA, it's yet another good idea that has turned into a many headed monster. It was intended to protect patient privacy (which, if people in the medical field all listened to their professors, would never have been necessary because it's one of the first things they address) but in reality has made it difficult if not impossible for people to get a copy of their own medical records without an act of Congress. Had people used good medical ethics it would have never been needed. Even for ancillary personnel there was, for many years, a code of conduct if you will that dictated that anything that related to patients or the care of a specific patient was simply not discussed outside the clinical setting.

Once that code was breached and the first sut was filed, it was all over.

Wait. So what you are saying is if I am a RN and go visit the Body Worlds exhibit, which showcases body parts all cut up, even a PLACENTA with a baby inside, and took a picture next to it, and posted that on FB, that would be unprofessional? For the other kids expelled for just being in the picture is wrong. For the person posting the picture should have just been asked to remove the picture and warned not to take pictures in class. The teacher should have also been warned by not allowing students to take pictures in class. End of story. The school went too far I believe.

chi-mb...the clinical setting and the personal setting are 2 different things. I am also a nurse and thought their behavior was unprofessional. It may not only be the school reacting to this. The hospital also has its rules for nursing students. One that I do remember is NOT being able to take pictures in the clinical setting. We couldn't even take group pictures. The schools don't want to hurt their relationships with the local hospitals. They need them for teaching.

When are these young people going to learn to stop posting their lives on Facebook? I wasn't perfect, but you wouldn't catch me being stupid and posting evidence for the world to see.

People really need to learn that actions have consequences. You can't go thru life with a 'so-what?' attitude. The nursing instructor should have had to tell them it was wrong. They are adults. They decided to do something stupid and unprofessional. Now, they will suffer for their actions. That's all there is to it.

And for any organs or wounds or whatever that is photographed and shown...there are consents that are signed to allow this. Obviously, these girls didn't get a consent signed.

Retired- I'm betting that was part of the reasoning also. Probably even a bigger part was the program trying to keep a good image of itself. But since the entire letter to the girl wasn't posted, whether or not HIPAA was involved we don't know and I was merely stating that if it was part of the reason, the actions of the program weren't totally unjustified.

Chi-mb- Actually no, it's not the same at all. The people in the exhibits have waived their rights to confidentiality for the expressed purposed of being put on public display. That is in no way the same thing as what happened here.

Mitchell

SMD: A placenta is a placenta no matter if its at a clinic or in a personal setting. The question is did the school define what was unprofessional behavior? If its not defined, what one person may feel is unprofessional another will disagree.

Example: I work for a fortune 500 law firm, which has documented we are allowed to have so many alcoholic drinks during a business day. To certain people, drinking on the job may be unprofessional. To the company, its perfectly fine within its limits.

Did the school have any documentation that states pictures are not allowed? If the schools do not have a code of conduct and passed down to students, then its the schools fault. Are students supposed to just guess what they can and cant do while in class?

Mitchell. They were in a lab course. So my guess is the person that provided this placenta waived their rights to allow it to be used for public display and research.

So many people are still calling this unprofessional and unethical, yet not one of you can even hint at why you feel this way.

Endo, I believe you are correct. It goes back to that old bugaboo of political correctness. (Read my post above.) . . . Way too many control freaks out there. It could have been a lump of cow's liver for what anyone really knows. Just because some nurse had "Hitler" for a teacher, or someone was taught that doctors are equal to gods, or that nurses aren't allowed to think outside the box; it doesn't make what these students did illegal, immoral or fattening. It just means someone else is just trying to make someone just as unhappy as they have been, and they believe that makes them morally justified. This was supposed to have been a learning experience; and sadly, these girls have learned something very negative, instead of sharing something positive. What a shame, and shame on the school.

Just a side note, if people were really interested in LEARNING something, they'd learn what a placenta is and how the body and fetus use it, instead of the blather I've been reading on this forum. No wonder we have such ignorance--this kind of political correctness is really dumbing down the population. Too bad so many couldn't link to these nursing students' facebook pages and get some education on just one little part of normal nature and anatomy.

Sure do'nt put any picture on your FB, you are going to be arrested and executed immediately if you do. Especially if you post a picture of your cat.

No its because I would rather not have any identifiable traits of who I am on facebook, thats why I have ZERO pictures on it.

Seriously why would these idiots put something like that on facebook to begin with? Oh wait, I forgot, they wanted attention

Mike, some of the people of Facebook have done interesting things and taken photos along the way. Hypothetically; a man vacations to Europe. Posts photos of himself in front of the Riechstag, in front of the the oldest beer hall in Munich, and in front of the ovens in Auschwitz. The photo in front of the ovens is unpleasant, but an experience a person might want to share with their friends. Another word for attention, Mike. Totally unlike posting something on a news board though.

Hey Snowman, obviously your example is an alcoholic arsonist Jew hater. That one was easy, set me up with another.

More and more potential employers are looking at an applicant's FB account. With the amount of competition, especially for high paying jobs, your character is just as important as your skill. Want to have pictures of beer bongs, butt floss and idiotic stunts on your FB page, be prepared to learn the expressions "Will that be paper or plastic?" or "Would you like fries with that order?" Scholarship committees are doing the same thing before determining if someone is to be a recipient of cash for an education.

Facebook is for losers.

The students were professional enough to ask permission.

That the school was not competent and professional enough to give them clear and correct guidance is not their fault.

The school needs to "heat thyself" first?

yeah spell it out for the moron students. The school should have said "no you stupid morons, you may NOT take a picture and be a jackass on facebook with it"

Then they would have sued for being called a moron

Okay, it was tasteless....

You're not cooking them right, then.

yeah spell it out for the moron students. The school should have said "no you stupid morons, you may NOT take a picture and be a jackass on facebook with it"

If you think the students were "morons", what do you think about the school employee they asked?

The only thing these students are guilty of is excitement in learning. I hope they keep this forever and I am lucky enough to get one of them as my nurse someday.

Judging by the response "oh, you girls!" I get the impression the instructor they asked thought they were joking around and obviously didn't realize the ladies really WERE silly enough to actually want to do it. It's unprofessional, just as it would be posting a photo taken in gross anatomy lab. Identifiable or not, it doesn't matter. You just don't do it. Lesson learned, the hard way.

I agree that it was tasteless,stupid and thoughtless of students, but also of instructor, since instructor permitted action, that (to me) implies approval from school.

To take pictures of any part of antomy with the intent of using it in any fashion there has to be a consent signed for release of medical photographs. The facility or individual using the photo has to obtain this.

I don't know if this is considered a Sentinal Event by Joint Commision standards or not.

That is rather a big leap from the info provided. I saw nothing in what was repoprted that gave them permission to do this. The instructor should have been more clear about what they were doing was wrong.

Edward,

Thank you, you get it. No one, and I mean no one, except the most dedicated and who truly love what they are doing and learning would even WANT to take their picture with a placenta. No one works that hard to be where they were and doing what they were doing to fool around and treat it like a joke. Some people just look for things to be angry about and don't think about what they are saying before they say it. I've seen some pretty cool things in my career and during my education and had facebook been around and I been more into facebook, I would have loved to share some of these things. It's not unprofessional, it's love and excitement for what they are experiencing.

The school is obviously terrified of being sued by the patient from whom the placenta was obtained. So they take it out on the students. Shame on them!

I would like anyone to prove their placenta was the one pictured. The amount of information the school can release is very, very limited. If the school does not even know who the donor was, it is none. Every other placenta used has the same privacy rights that threw the school into such a panic.

If you can tell one Placenta from another you are super human. I deal with them all the time and can't tell one from another unless they are multiple births. I have shown body parts to school science classes for many years hoping to give a spark to just one kid. I am proud to say I have many that keep in touch with me and are in medical fields because of the interest gained from my lecture. There are many pictures out there from my lectures, diseased lungs from smoking and hearts from bad health. If just one person lives healthier it was worth my time and someones organ.

brava Linda

Right on linda t!

Keep at it, because that is what fuels innovation in science and medicine, those who love and are awestruck by what they are learning. I think these same people offended by this "disrespected" placenta are the same that think the Body Works exhibits are "distasteful" and "disrespectful". Seriously people, see it for what it is. Some of us awe at the wonder of the human body and how this amazing peice of biological machinery works. I think those who don't understand are those who are the most offended.

I so agree, Linda. Science runs at the bottom of our school's learning, just above math.

It is said these students could lose their (careers). I left nursing after 40 years becsuse it used to be a career, now it has become just a job to modern nurses.

I also was a nurse for many years and just retired. Nursing is still seen as a career by young grads who come into the field with passion and a genuine need to help others.

Unfortunately, they become disillusioned very quickly when reality kicks in and they realize that there is no time to care for patients because of all the paperwork.

Fortunately, I never stopped "trying" to give the kind of patient care we ALL learned in school but never have/had time to do now.

I never stopped trying either. But it got to be pretty frustrating the last couple of years.

Now I'm just imagining someone posting a picture of themselves smiling with a bottle of conditioner. I doubt their college/facebook would care about that though.

Actually, that's bovine or sheep placenta, not the human variety. A placenta is one of the most blood-rich things on earth. No cosmetic company is going to chance human blood-borne disease either for their employees or their customers.

proves that they have no respect for their profession

that proves nothing of the kind. my human anatomy instructor took pictures of and during class- including dissections- himself, to post to his page on our college website. the article describes the pictures as showing the student in question "smiling... wearing a lab coat and surgical gloves and leaning over the placenta in a tray". it does not describe any photos as being immature or unprofessional; there were no live patients, no names or identifying features; nothing, in fact other than students in a class that might give some people the creeps, but for a nurse (or nursing student) is another day at the office. do you think you should get fired for being photographed standing around the coffee pot at the office, when you should be working? it is just typical over-reaction by college administration. they tend to do a lot of fearful, knee-jerk stuff like this, over imaginary lawsuits from phantom placenta donors... now they have a real lawsuit to deal with.

Every newspaper, news magazine, and news network has at one time or another shown pictures of human embryos. This has got to have some relevance on what the students thought was acceptable.

What is needed is "perspective"?

Do you have spell checker?? Good grief! Let me help you. Here are the correct spellings:

Facebook

eavesdropping

gesture

students'

Well, at least you got obscene right...

Jm that really was uncalled for. Some people just can't spell correctly. If you don't like it just skip over it. You at least had goten the gist of what this person was saying. Take a chill pill, will ya? I hate it when people try to correct others. They seem a bit smug to me.

Facebook is a public domain. Eavesdropping? I'm guessing that there are all kinds of goodies that will come back to haunt you on your page. And it didn't take a genius to go "eavesdrop" that night on this girl's page. FFS, she told the instructor that she planned on doing it. If not outright, than by asking if it was alright to do it. My big question is that if it was only on this one girl's page, why the others as well? Granted someone else probably took the picture for her, but there are things we arent being told in this article. I'm guessing that this is not the first issue with this group during the class. I'm also guessing that they werent called at home and told not to come back. Sounds more like a "no one wants to talk about who else was involved" situation. Lots of guessing on my part, but if you'd rather believe what their hired lawyer says about them, go for it.

If you want to be a jackwagon on FB by putting tasteless or moronic pictures on your page, be prepared to have it come back to bite you in either your personal or professional lives.

leslie g........Does anyone who expects respect for their professional demeanor use "OMG" to start their emails?...Are you a valley girl?...This term has been included in the latest list of 10 words/terms that need to be eliminated from the English language...I'm just sayin'...(that one was, like, #5...)

Pull your head out Charles and lighten up.

Charles, "I'm just sayin'" is on the List of Banished Words for 2011 just released New Year's Day by the Unicorn Hunters of LSSU. I do believe "like" was on a previous year's list, too.

Essie, do you know sarcasm when you read it? I guess not.

Whatever!!! (Voted number 1)

Really?? I'm currently a nursing student and, at least from the small amount of information given in this article, these girls were simply sharing something to do with school and their careers that they were excited about. Yes, somebody donated that part and they got to work with it and wanted to share the positive experience. It's not like they were doing something weird or disrespectful with it. Not to mention, they asked the teacher and were not given any guidelines and she removed it as soon as somebody within the program complained. I think this demonstrates not a bunch of immature girls who should be out of the profession but rather students who are very passionate about medicine, which is exactly what the medical field needs. The administration completely over-reacted and I think you are doing the same.

Completely agree. This was not an example of young, unprofessional girls disrespecting a patient or their role. Instead, this is an example of young nurses marveling at the human body, pregnancy, and the pure science of it all right before their eyes. For the first time, they likely witnessed a childbirth and are front and center for real medicine. If nursing students aren't this enthusiastic, then they probably don't give a darn-- Not the kind of nurse I'd like to hand the profession to someday.

If these students had the time to waste, to be posting pics of body parts on facebook, they obviously were at the wrong school and/or in the wrong program as they seem to have a lot of free time on their hands imo. Most students in these programs have so much work to do and take their study seriously, that they do not have the time to do this sort of stupidity.

Better they are out of the program now, or at least get a severe reprimand, than go through unscathed and get their license to practice nursing, to be followed by posting pics of some live patient's body part on a social network.

It is one thing to show pics of body parts or specimes not being handled properly, it is another to show this sort of thing for fun or to be a showoff imo.

One thing for sure they will not be doing this sort of thing again.....hopefully.

@ 17.1 ... if they were all that passionate about medicine they would have been studying hard and showing more maturity, sensitivity and care instead of wasting time on facebook. But then the students that I know are serious about graduating in a timely fashion, and do not have the time for that sort of nonsensical behaviour, as they must also hold a part-time job a well to help pay for their education etc.

If they felt they had to ask for permission to do what they did in the first place, they obviously knew it was questionable at best and more than likely the wrong thing to do. It appears they intended to post the pics on facebook and were just looking for cover or validation of their actions in case some thing went wrong.

Enough with the encouraging people in their own foolishness already.

It was pictures of them studying what they are studying. They asked for guidance and received none. Students are students, they don't know yet. Give them a break and drop the high and mighty attitude. Were you never 20 something... maybe not.

nurse TB... they were "marvelling" at the human body? Really?!

ld2424-- you are grossly out of line, and so are the school's administrators. Sharing an experience related to work on facebook should not be villainized. This is no different than a medical student posing for a picture after their first cadaver surgery, a chemist posing with a beaker of mercury or a writer holding up his first novel. It is part of their JOB, part of their EDUCATION and part of their LIVES. They were clearly excited about their careers and wanted to share their enthusiasm. Absolutely nothing in this article suggested anything even remotely disrespectful. They posed next to an item related to their chosen field, end of story. The school is overreacting and I hope she sues the @!$%# out of them.

Exactly so many new nurses leave the profession before spending much time in it. Nurses eat their young, and nursing administrators exploit them. It's crazy! Who cares what was done with this placenta, it's an empty sack of tissue and now useless blood vessels that has served it's purpose. People need to get a grip, maybe in poor taste but definately not expelled. If the students are expelled then the nursing instructor should be fired as she didn't do her due deligence and flatly deny the students request to photograph the placenta.

I don't know what state you work in, moo, but in every state I've worked in, the Dept of Health Services regulates nursing homes and is a totally different branch than the Board of Nursing, which regulates nursing. Unfortunately, there are still some nursing facilities that may be subpar but a majority of nursing homes do not leave their patients in their own filth and work diligently to give them the best quality of life as possible. Maybe you were a nurse 20-30 years ago when your terribly inaccurate desciption was actually the truth but times have changed drastically in my 15 years of working in nursing homes. You obviously do have a bad taste in your mouth. I invite you to come to any nursing home I work in and prove to me what you say is true there. Get out of the '80's!

I was a nurse during the 90s and I heard the same type of defense of the industry then as well.

FACT: Every nursing home must be licensed by the state in which they operate.

FACT: The state insures compliance by sending in inspectors from the state board of nursing. In addition, the results of those inspections must be available to the public.

Now, I'm sure that all the nursing homes you work in are models of the industry....however, you can click on the link below and see the results of those recent inspections.....state by state.

A few may be sub par indeed.....what are you, a lobbyist?

http://www.carepathways.com/nhg-state.cfm

Nurses from the Philippine's are more numerous and usually better educated than US educated nurses and they don't bring a lot of extra baggage with them either. More important, they seem to be able to tell right from wrong without a detailed explanation.

As a unionized registered nurse, I can tell you that the same problems exist as with non-union nursing. Besides writing our contract, the only activity I have seen with our union is their political agenda. Luckily, our state gives union members an opt-out for specific political views or candidates that we do not agree with. Our union still protects non-productive workers, while less than enthusiastic about helping nurses with legitimate issues.

Regarding the nursing students, one of the first things most nursing schools teach and emphasize is complete respect for patients, cadavers, specimens taken, etc. Rule #1 in lab and in the hospital is NO picture taking. There is such a fine line for HIPAA violations, and the school could be fined thousands of dollars, as well as the students themselves. It sounds like there were no ill intentions by them, however, that makes no difference. If the school didn't make this point infinitely clear, they are at fault. It's hard to believe they wouldn't, but it's possible. In the real world, a nurse would be fired AND fined BIG.

Moo-299581,

Maybe it is a good thing you are no longer in the nursing field. Perhaps the bad experience you had was due to your unprofessionalism and lack of morals just like these particular students. You were probably the type of nurse who spoke badly about your patients, never gave pain meds because you believed your patients were faking, or maybe you just could not handle the challenge of being a top notch nurse!!!

Yes, there is a nursing shortage due to budget issues and management problems, and it is sad, but if the choice is having no nurse or having an incompetent nurse taking up air and wasting money because they would rather post pictures of themselves with tissues they encounter, then I would rather have no nurse at all.

When one is accepted into a nursing program, there is usually a rule handbook that states the responsibility of being a professional, and the student typically signs a legally binding form stating that the student will follow rules and values set by the college.

Usually the rule of thumb is "if you have to ask permission to do something you think may be wrong, then don't do it". For people to blame the faculty for the student's behavior is stupid. Yes, the teacher should have known the policy, but it is also the responsibility of the student to uphold the institution's rules. We are not talking about a six grade class on a field-trip, we are talking about "adult" students who should know better!!! I bet there are 100 other prospective nursing students who would have loved to have been accepted into that program, but stupid people took their spots instead!! I think the school was right in punishing the students.

Moo,

Your claim is not limited to nursing boards, the AMA is no better and maybe worse since "patient first" means nothing to them. They are about making doctors gods.

Like any other group of people, few doctors are outstanding. As for the balance, anyone who can read could do the same.

while I agree with you that the school overreacted, I must whole heartedly disagree with you regarding nursing homes. What are you basing your info on? I have worked in nursing homes for over 33 years as a CNA and I can tell you that most bed sores come to us from the hospitals and are not from the nursing homes. Most nusing home employees are very dedicated to the care of our elderly residents.

Maybe it is a good thing you are no longer in the nursing field. Perhaps the bad experience you had was due to your unprofessionalism and lack of morals just like these particular students. You were probably the type of nurse who spoke badly about your patients, never gave pain meds because you believed your patients were faking, or maybe you just could not handle the challenge of being a top notch nurse!!!

Smitty you obviously don't know me from the man in the moon because if you did you would know just how incredibly ignorant your post is.

You simply don't care for my opinion on the subject at hand so you are resorting to an ad hominem attack.

Perhaps because I said something that hits a little close to home?

Perhaps you don't care for people posting the results of state nursing home surveys, as it tends to cast light on the big problem of sub par nurses in nursing homes and that bothers you for some reason.

In any case while you may not like what I said, I was speaking of an industry that has well known problems and was not engaging in personal attacks.

You seem to feel a need a to discredit what I've said. That's fine, but if you can't do it without resorting to this childish troll like mudslinging, why should anyone take anything else you say seriously?

CNAdeb,

I posted a link to the results of recent nursing home inspections in all 50 states. I suggest you spend a few minutes looking at them.

It is the results of those inspections and my own eight year experience as an LPN agency nurse that I base my comment on.

If you have not encountered these conditions after 30 years in the biz as a CNA, then I would submit that ...

A: you have not worked in many different facilities and

B: you were very, very lucky.

Also,

I would be surprised if I posted something negative about nursing homes and I wasn't attacked. It's par for the course.

I am also a nurse and agree with everything you are saying, but these people also showed serious lack of judgement so?

Blue N Gold - please tell us what the AMA's role is? How does an organization that is basically a fraternity to which you pay dues and which has no power compare to a State Board?

The answer is that there is no comparison. The AMA is the closest that there has ever been to a union for doctors. Any graduated physician in the US can belong by paying annual dues. The AMA has nothing to do with the National Board of Medical Examiners. It has nothing to do with state licensing departments or boards.

So, if you can read, you can be a doctor? Guess what? More often than not, the tops in the classes in our medical schools go in to academia. Your so-called few are not the ones in the neighborhoods providing daily care to the populace. Experience and the ability to learn from it, retain it, and be able to piece the seemingly unrelated together is how diagnostic medicine is practiced. Clinical acumen is not developed from rote memorization and reading the NEJM every week. It takes years in practice to start to become a clinician, and a computer can't do it because it can't get a feel for things.

As for Moo, I fully understand your frustration with the deterioration of the system, but tell me how unionizing will do anyone any good? All it will do is line the pockets of those running the union. Why do you think so many of us have quit the AMA and why so few new MD's join it? It has yet to accomplish a thing, but they want 1K a year to be part of it. Unionization of nursing does not benefit patients one bit since it makes it harder to fire an incompetent nurse.

I agree with you fully. That's why I decided NOT to work in a hospital, clinical setting. Did you know that 80% of nurses are from homes of adult alcoholics? I saw this in the actions and behavior of those nurses in charge of teaching students. Many were calloused and unfeeling. I didn't want to be a part of that society.

Steve,

They did screw up, I never contested that. But to expel them I think is extreme overkill.

bigz, there is power in numbers, it's that simple.

Moo,

That's just about the best reply anyone could have come up with. You said it ALL. :)

You're kidding. Your explanation for the nursing shortage is that we haven't lowered the bar enough to accomodate the really, really dumb ones--??

Chitownnurse

aw shucks, thank you.

I have never seen the type on neglect you describe. I have practiced in 3 states and major cities.

Well you can believe the survey results or not, you can believe page after page of sworn testimony from court cases or not.

I cannot say that I am surprised that you seem to be anti-union, you are all for the students being expelled and you've never seen the abuse of which I speak after working in three major cities.

If you worked in nursing homes in those three major cities and you claim not to have seen any abuse, then I think you should play the lottery.

I do not expect people to take my word. I back up what I say with solid documentation. You may believe whatever you like.

Facelessbook, a good void to avoid.

i believe where i work on the consent for most surgeries that photos maybe taken for educational purposes, etC. and if no protected health information was divulged i dont believe it is a HIPAA violation

It is not a violation of the privacy provisions of HIPAA, as there is no confidential medical information within the purview of the Act being disclosed. Furthermore, human organs are routinely displayed on television, in particular on the Oprah Winfrey Show and on her spin-off, Dr. Oz. The school should be held fully liable for all damages, loss of income and mental distress caused by this wrongful act. The students have been deprived of due process and their ability to generate income has been diminished. I'd award actual damages plus at least $1,000,000 in punitive damages for the school's outrageous conduct.

HIPAA is not violated unless there is any information identifying the patient from which the placenta came. Since it was simply a picture of them in lab, it most certainly does not violate HIPAA.

I am a long time labor and delivery nurse (since 1985) and I can tell you HIPAA has NOT been violated. Unless there is a gross anomaly, one placenta looks like the next. There is no ID band on the placenta. To us in the medical field, viewing a placenta is ho hum, part of our job. Nothing gross, nothing disrespectful, nothing illegal or wrong. Those nursing students probably posted the picture to show other students what a placenta looks like. Nursing students all go through an OB rotation. IMHO, they posted it in a professional manner. And when asked to remove the picture, they did so immediately, no questions asked. I see no need to punish these students. U do, however, question the instructors' listening ability. She said a mere "Oh, you girls" when she was asked if they could photograph the placenta. That is a non-answer if I ever heard one. She should have stopped what she was doing for the moment and discussed with the girls what they wanted to do, why and whether or not she knew of any restrictions the school might have had re social sites and photographs. Her non-answer probably led the girls to believe all is ok.

The saddest of all things here is that these young students, not even with their degrees or licenses yet, already have gotten a taste of the temperamental nature of nursing. I TOTALLY LOVE what I do, but I dislike the politics involved within the profession.

Any medical professional who doesn't recognize HIPAA for the beaurcratic, job-justifying, deforestating waste of time that it really is, has no business in the medical profession. I'm a urologist for 20 years. I'm of the opinion that citing HIPAA in justifying the loss of a young girl's livelihood shows a comittment to beauracracy and soulless zeal to turn a youthful indiscretion into a shattered life, shows that you're the one who doesn't belong in the medical profession. Shame on you.

I can say this is not a HIPPA issue. HIPPA is Federal law. I can not say anything about the laws of the state the school is in. State law in California where I work is much more restrictive than HIPPA, so this may be a real issue.

That said, given this is a teaching hospital, I can't imagine their lawyers letting a release that does not protect the school be used.

Also, if you "ask your supervisor" and "follow their direction" as the students, I have never before seen anyone punished for doing this. Think about it for a moment. Anything else would force everyone to continually "second guess" their orders and prevent anyone from providing timely care.

It wasn't a teaching hospital.................... This was a junior college that has a nursing program that depends on local hospitals to let their students do their clinicals there. Poor work ethics of students are ruining it for others.

Good point - they were not at their school, they were guests. This may go a long way to explaining the overreaction of the community college.

Poor work ethics of students are ruining it for others.

Were is there evidence of this? Can you point out where the hospital or donor has protested? That THEY have a problem with the students? As far as I can see this issue only exists in the paranoid fantasies of the community college.

Edward, it's HIPAA. as in Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act of 1996. not HIPPA. ...so I guess you're right in that this is not a HIPPA issue, whatever HIPPA is....

So many placenta lawyers and judges... Has anyone here read HIPAA, as amended?

Poor work ethic~ Taking a camera or a phone while in the hospital for starters. They should know it might mess with equipment being used. It's a hospital not the Dollar Store, you are messing with peoples lives.

HIPAA is designed to prevent the unauthorized release of a patient's medical records and other sensitive information regarding one's physical and mental health.

That said:

If you expect HIPAA to restore your confidence that sensitive medical data is a matter between you and your doctor, you will be disappointed. HIPAA sets the standard for privacy in the electronic age where health industry, government, and public interests often prevail over the patient's desire for confidentiality.

HIPAA sets a national standard for accessing and handling medical information. Before HIPAA, your right to privacy of health information varied depending on what state you live in. Now, health care providers, health plans and other health care services that operate in all states have to abide by the minimum standards set by HIPAA.

Your state is free to adopt laws that give you more privacy, but it cannot take away the basic rights given by HIPAA. It is likely that your state has existing laws that in some way govern the privacy of medical records. Some states may pass new laws to incorporate or strengthen HIPAA.

Access to your own medical records, prior to HIPAA, was not guaranteed by federal law. Only about half the states had laws requiring patients to be able to see and copy their own medical records. Now HIPAA gives everyone the right to see, copy, and request to amend their own medical records. You can be charged for copies of your records, but HIPAA sets limits on the fees.

Notice of privacy practices about how your medical information is used and disclosed must now be given to you. You should get a notice the first time you visit your doctor after the HIPAA Privacy Rule takes effect. The notice should also be available in the health care facility. It must tell you how to exercise your rights under the Rule. And the notice must explain how to file a complaint with your health care provider and with the HHS Office of Civil Rights.

An accounting of disclosures of your health information is also required by HIPAA. You can find out who has accessed your health records for the prior six years, although there are several exceptions to the accounting requirement. For example, accounting is not required when records are disclosed to the many individuals who see your records for treatment, payment, and health care operations (TPO). Those involved in TPO do not need to be listed in the disclosure log.

The above information is from this website:

http://www.privacyrights.org/fs/fs8a-hipaa.htm

Perhaps I read it wrong, but it seems that they were sharing an experience they were enjoying, not trying to gross people out.

breesus...you read it wrong...

No, she did not read it wrong. If you want to see a copy of the picture it's on the Kansas City Star's website. No, I don't necessarily think this was in good taste, but it definitely wasn't meant to gross people out.