wait 'til you see the hike in your premiums....

Imagine what the hike in premiums would be if we continued to have 50 million uninsured sick people all going to the ER to get care?

Yes, premiums may rise in the short term in part to cover the short term rise in costs to insurance companies who weren't planning on higher out-of-pocket expenses. But we've seen premiums rise exorbitantly over the past few years with NO new legislation. You think magically they were going to start going down if we did NOTHING?

This is a good start to a HUGE problem. Doing nothing is NEVER a good solution.

InniAudi, if our leaders only had to know as much about economics as you know, this whole mess would have never happened.

The problem with a lot of people is they have no sense of economics and don't use their brains. Jersey says "same or better level of care, less expensive services..." and "this seems to be beneficial to most citizens without touching the sacred free market system." Of course this will affect the free market system (to the extent we've had one for the past 50 years). And does anyone really believe that care will be as good or better for less money? Then why is the rest of the world running away from government run health care? Remember the old saying, "if it sounds to good to be true, it probably is?" This is what this whole Obamacare is, one be fraud.

So far, the government has issued a bunch of "exemptions" from the law. Why? Because the law, in the infinite wisdom of the dems, provided that all employers provide minimum health insurance coverage to all employees that they cover by health insurance. Sounds great right! But, use your brains, how are you going to cover part-time workers at, or just above minimum wage? Answer, you can't! Heck, just covering them on the prescribed health insurance plan and not paying the employee anything would result in a prohibitive increase in payroll expenses. Also, what has government ever done that works out just hunky dory? And that doesn't even address the constitutionality of it all.

Inniaudi: No, it's not better to do something rather than nothing. Look at all the polls, 85% of the people are happy with their health insurance. Other people have chosen not to get insurance. Most of the uninsured get health care in one form or another. So, why change the entire system for the few? Any time government tries to "fix" a problem, they usually make it worse. This is no different. Just look at the promises to date. Dems said insurance premiums would not go up, and in fact would go down. Opponents to the legislation said premiums would go up. Who is right?

Maybe the reason why this came about was because corporations were doing what you now accuse the government of doing.

My premiums were raised 60 dollars a month. But... *shrug*

It's like gas prices. Everything is going up.

My premiums were raised 53% because I got sick last year. There's nothing fair about that.

I wonder if premiums are going up MORE THAN USUAL (because they've been rising for most of us for the past decade) because part of this new legislation requires that 80% of the money we pay into our health insurance actually goes to coverage, leaving 20% to go to overhead...ya know, things like CEO pay and shareholders.

It's not because suddenly the cost of doing health care is crazy expensive, nope, because the CEO's running these private, for profit health care insurance companies cant fleece you anymore.

I'll keep saying it til im blue in the face, of all the things on this planet, Health Insurance and Health care should not be FOR PROFIT.

I dont have any problem with people making quality wages working these jobs, but somehow I can not even fathom how anyone can believe ANY of the CEO's running these giant for profit monopolies can justify their outrageous pay...while denying coverage to people without legit reasons.

Outside of all of this, isnt it valid to ask the question: wouldnt our businesses do better if they werent burdened with health care? Im pretty sure, but last time I checked, I didnt have to go through them for my home and automobile insurance...nor do I get a bigger paycheck if I choose not to get health insurance.

“If you like your health care plan, you can keep your health care plan”~President Barack Obama.

Health Care Reform has effectively outlawed my health care plan. I agreed to a policy with maximums and copayments, because they were reasonable and affordable and the premium was affordable. Now that my insurer can no longer offer my policy legally, I must be forced into a new plan, that sadly, I can no longer afford. So, health care reform has effectively made me one of the uninsured.

Being self employed with multiple medical diagnosis’ I have limited choices for a private policy. I had a fantastic plan that worked very well for me that I found through Costco. They accepted me in spite of the fact that I had been diagnosed with rheumatoid arthritis, fibromyalgia, high blood pressure, high cholesterol and abnormal liver panels. I did not need nor want the so called ‘help’ being offered by health care reform.

Thank you very much to President Obama and all the congresspeople who voted this atrocity into being. You have just added one more to the list of uninsured. I suspect you will be hearing many more stories like mine in the near future.

This will be an interesting test for the repubs to see just how little they think of the people, and how important it is to cling to their obsolete ideology. Rattle them sabers, boys, you have a small segment of the population to please.

On a related note, the only real disappointment I feel about the health care changes is that there was no single payer plan. Silly that the US is the only country in the developed world without socialized health care, and has some pretty mediocre health care stats to go along with it.

I think Obama has doena great job so far, he just needs to get up on a tree stump and shout about his successes more. You know, like a shameless Republican would... "everyone, look, I just used the bathroom!"

If you think health care is expensive now, wait until it's free!

..you have a small segment of the population to please.

The last figure I heard from NBC and CBS (not Fox) news was that about 70% of the populace is against this healthcare plan. Doesn't sound like a small segment to me.

Same or better level of care, less expensive services, closing the donut hole..... and 34M more citizens covered for major medical events.

What planet are living on! Healthcare costs for everyone will continue to rise this year higher than in previous years. Small insurance companies who took "high risk" patients are closing left and right! Also, there are hospitals all across this country who are operating in the red and will need charitable or governmental bailouts very soon. Also, doctors are by the droves ceasing to accept medicare patients. Insurance companies sent letters out at the beginning of the 4th quarter stating that premiums will be rising abnormally for the foreseeable future!

Not one sentence in the 2000 page bill addressed controlling costs and until you do that this is nothing but farting downwind...Yeah, let it be somebody elses problem...That's the ticket, LMAO!

This is why this country is so F-ed up! Because people have opinions without learning all the facts and considered the unintended consequences of purely senseless legislation!

I think some of you are forgetting that insurance prices have been going up every year for years. But the goal is to reduce the increases over the coming years. I think inniAudi sums it up very well.

goparefools - (great name.) I just want to point out that not all Republican'ts are eager to shout about using the bathroom. Think Larry Craig. Although for many others it is probably a great accomplishment.

Liberal nut case. Can I insure your kids? Handout taking sloth, leave my money alone.

This health care bill is a godsend to two of my nieces. One has severe allergies and asthma, the other has had an arhythmic heart beat. Neither one could get health care. This will allow them both to get coverage that was denied them because of their pre-existing conditions.

My niece with asthma was actually able to get health insurance, which she couldn't afford. It was $480 a month and she had a $25,000 deductible on it. You read that right . . . a twenty-five thousand dollare deductible. Absolutely worthless. She paid on it for about two months before deciding her pocketbook couldn't afford the payments. She is now eligible to get into the health care group insurance through the state as a result of this bill for a much more affordable $200 a month with a much smaller $1200 out of pocket maximum payment.

My group insurance from work is getting rid of all of the maximum payments ($5000 max for physical therapy, $500 max for wellness, $1800 max for baby wellness, etc.) as a result of this bill. I'm not complaining, I'm just explaining . . .

The only way to get the health care costs under control is to deport all illegal immigrants.

When illegal immigration started spiralling out of control, so did the health care costs.

health insurance is a scam...our govt is a scam...most people are self centered scammers.

gee, how could this possibly not work out for everyones benefit?

Longhair - when exactly was that? Under Reagan's Amnesty program?

Im just curious, because you failed to point out WHEN that was...just like all those folks who say "the good ol days"...when, exactly was that? The 50's? Interesting, top tier tax rate was above 70% then...

how about the 60's? maybe the 70's? from then on, the top tier tax rate just keeps dissolving away...perhaps, there is in fact a correlation between just how much the wealthy people get to keep and gamble with, versus investing in their businesses so as not to be taxed.

Hey, but you all get what you want right...make sure the super duper rich are taken care of, and im certain, they'll make sure job opportunities for the rest of us exist...right? Funny that is, as the top tier tax rate as dissolved, so have jobs in this nation...hmmm.

I guess its hard to create a lot of jobs when the bulk of your dealings are on wall street, and nothing is actually produced, exact winners and losers.

mn - My premiums went down for the first time in 11 years!!!! I am thrilled. I am better off - and I don't work for a huge company or a firm with special exemptions....

It's more portable, will protect me from extreme situations that would have cleaned me out financially, I can change providers without being limited by any pre-existing conditions, my sister was able to keep her son on for two more years until he is 25, I get more preventive care, and my sister (over 65) is losing the "doughnut hole" costs that were kiling her wallet.

We are all working and have been self-supporting citizens our whole life. We have contributed to medicare and social security for over 30 years, and are very compfortable with the benefits available. If they are not sufficient, we can go to the private sector to get supplemental coverage.

The GOP should be spending their time figuring out how to fix the budget and the debt WITHOUT cutting my medicare or ssi. Leave the healthcare legislation alone!!!!!!

Medicare and SSI are separate programs that are paid for by payroll deductions - not by taxes. If these programs need tweaking, OK - let's do it - but balance them separately from the rest of the budget paid for by TAXES. We are paying for Medicare and SSI already.

The rest of the budget paid for with taxes????? That is actually discretionary spending and THE MILITARY. Hey GOP/TP - get us some real results there - where they can be significant enough to make a real difference. Prove to me that you GOP/TP types are not the lap dogs of the military contractors and defense industry. CUT MILITARY SPENDING.

Troops in Iraq? OUT

Troops in Afghanistan? OUT

Troops in over 480 other locations throughout the world? OUT

Weapons systems that are outdated? OUT

Bring the troops home. All of them. Have them do what the constitution originally intended - protect us here at home. And - you would save between $200 and $400 BILLION every year!!! ow THAT is real fiscal responsibility. Cutting a feew million here and there will change nothing.

But will the GOP have the courage???? Does the military/defense industry own them????? Don't plan on them cutting what is really needed - or fixing the budget any time soon... Lots of talk by the GOP/TP, and campaign rhetoric, but NO fiscal discipline...

I LIKE the health care legislation. Leave mine alone.

This was a pertinent post. The fact that it was "collapsed" shows only intolerance of a different political view.

SHAME! And I hope it's reinstated.

mn

wait 'til you see the hike in your premiums....

the cbo estimates that, on average, premiums will be lower than they would have been if there had been no reform.

I'm all for bringing the troops home but if they came home now where would they get jobs. what would the effect of all those people have on our already messed up economy? Really I'm not being sarcastic, just wondering.

Imagine what the hike in premiums would be if we continued to have 50 million uninsured sick people all going to the ER to get care?

Uh huh...just wait til that's 100 million. Premiums are going up....wayyy up (20+%) this year. Jessica you and your conspiriacy theories about the CEO's taking all the money are groundless. 80% of group premium and 85% of individual premium have to go toward paying claims....and the rates are still skyrocketing.

Why? Because this 2000 piece of useless legislation does nothing to control the COST of care.

Of the 40 million or so uninsured, do you realize that 32-34 million could get coverage but choose not to because of the cost? Now this law is going to dramatically increase that cost and you expect more people to pay more? What kind of logic is that?

Someone please explain to me this math....

- Obamacare assumes $500 billion in medicare savings to fund this plan

- Obamacare adds between $500-$1000 per year per senior in benefit in wellness benefits (figure an additional $40 BILLION per year in cost)

- Obamacare removes the $4000 donut hole for every recipient (another additional $150 billion per year)

- They are now increasing the amount they are going to pay primary care providers by 10%

.....and the funniest part...the liberals think this will SAVE money. Who's money?

Let's see how the first part of the law has worked so far...."All children under the age of 18 are not subject to prexisting conditions and are guaranteed to issue" as of September 23rd.

All but one carrier quit offering any product that had coverage for children under the age of 18 on an individual basis. BlueCross raised it's rates on the children by 100%.

...awesome plan there Nancy Pelosi....NOW we get to find out what's in it?

There is no logic so deceitful as the logic that pastes a few trivial positive points of obamacare( or big brother care) on a billboard in order to white wash the monster lies and cost increases contained in the reality of this travesty of a bill. Way to go MSNBC.

Obama care was created by Republican Mitt Romney in Massachusetts when Mitt was Governor. Thanks Mitt for Romney care - it is helping a lot people afford their health care. Mitt Romney should be offered the job of Secretary of Health for his great job initiating this great health care plan. Just because Mitt is a Republican multi-millionaire he gave the middle class a great health care plan. Vote for Mitt for Secretary of Health.

"The last figure I heard from NBC and CBS (not Fox) news was that about 70% of the populace is against this healthcare plan. Doesn't sound like a small segment to me."

In another poll, 70% of the American people didn't like the health care plan because it did not contain the public option.

Are we talking about the same poll?

It's amazing that so many Americans can be so easily mislead -- even after all these months -- about what Obamacare is and is not, and what a Republican modification of the health insurance reform legislation would actually look like -- a windfall for health insurers.

Nevermind your pre-existing condition or you seniors with your prescription drug "donut hole." The fact is, 70% of the population don't really care about your health problems or your financial problems. 70% of the population will cheer on the Republicans as they proceed in modifying the law so that you pay more money for less health care.

@thankfulforwork

If the troops came home they are still enlisted personnel and therefore would still have a job. They would not be dumped into the job market. And the NG members would go back to their old jobs.

I think you can see by the posts here most people are against the healthcare plan. I really don't want my personal costs to go up so someone else can have healthcare. But being the owner of a small business I will discontinue healthcare and let the Obamaplan pay for it.

And now people will have to pay for dental and eyeglasses will not be to happy. But smile for that person you don't know who now has their problem solved at your expense.

The old way worked for me.

The biggest change for most people?

Much higher premiums for health insurance.

But what if you develop a catastrophic illness? How will you pay for that? That is what health insurance is for. It doesn't even have to be cancer. I developed a rare autoimmune demyelinating disease of the peripheral nervous system. I needed plasmapheresis. The treatment cost <insert large insurer> over 100,000 at the negotiated rates. Not pocket change in my household - I would have potentially faced significant disability as things progressed had I not had insurance. And of course, in this health care transition that the country is in, it would still be difficult for me to get health insurance outside of employer sponsored.

I am otherwise healthy, normal weight and BMI. I eat healthy foods; all fresh and no processed stuff. I take good care of my health; this came out of no where. What many people do not realize, is that most severe illness is random. What we need in this country is a dose of empathy. Don't think it can't happen to you.

I never understand why healthy people say "I don't need it!" The point of having insurance is for the UNEXPECTED events in life. It ENSURES you won't go poor when (not if) something unexpected happens.

achick is one of the reasons hospital casts are high. No coverage until something catastrophic happens, then the rest of us get stuck for the bill. Freedom of choice my ass. They advocate for freedom to stick it to the responsible people who carry coverage and taxpayers.

Oh and as for your "unconstitutional" hope?

A) Notice that Massachusetts has required coverage for years now, and it has survived lawsuits.

B) If it is, hospitals should have the right to turn away anyone who can afford coverage but doesn't have it unless they can pay up front 100%

If she to gets really sick the cost would overwhelm her and we tax payers would get to pick up the bill. She would also suddenly become an advocate for health care reform. I am really unhappy that we did not even get a public option. I'm a single payer guy, myself.

"But what if you develop a catastrophic illness? How will you pay for that? That is what health insurance is for."

That's what it used to be for. Now you're paying a middleman (covering its overhead and turning a profit to boot!) to pay your basic medical bills.

I agree Kash. The private health insurance industry is broken. Profits should not be tied to member's health.

Yes, brought on by years of 'blood money'.

achick

This health care nonsense will cost me much more, and I am not interested in having health insurance. I have always paid for all of my extremely rare visits for some type of medical assistance with cash.

YOU may not be interested in health care, but I'm willing to bet that if you ever have a major illness or major surgery that cost in the neighborhood of $10-20,000 that you will be the first one screaming. Thank your lucky stars that you haven't had such a scenerio to occur, but as you grow older you will be ever increasing your odds of having a major illness such as minor heart surgery ($25,000), heart replacement $150,000, cancer treatments for remission $2-300,000. You're an idiot if you think that a normal working person can afford those. Even to go to a doctors office is running in places over $200. How many of those visits would it take for you to eventually see the light?

"For-profit" is what BROKE the medical system in the first place. When medical care became "for profit" in the eighties is when prices started to explode. You simply cannot and should not make money off of certain things. People's suffering is one of them. Medical care should not be a place to make money. This is certain what is wrong with our country today. We expect to make a profit off of everything and anything. We believe everything should be "run like a business". And this is why we are in the quandary we are in now. We put profits over people and everyone is feeling it.

achick - all it takes is one fool out there in a car pulling you into his/her accident. My boys were in a car accident, through no fault of their own. Both had broken legs. The cost of the younger son's broken bones (hairline cracks in the tibia and fibula) was $35,000 to fix. The other had a compound fracture in his femur that required two surgeries to repair. The cost for that one was over $70,000. Both boys were otherwise healthy and needed no major medical care up to that point.

Thank goodness I had health insurance through my job! Otherwise, everyone else would have been paying for my boys' broken legs through higher premiums because their care would have been at the emergency room and their bills wouldn't have been paid. That's what happens with people who "don't need medical insurance" and use the emergency room as their primary care provider.

mn - My premiums went down for the first time in 11 years!!!! I am thrilled. I am better off - and I don't work for a huge company or a firm with special exemptions....

It's more portable, will protect me from extreme situations that would have cleaned me out financially, I can change providers without being limited by any pre-existing conditions, my sister was able to keep her son on for two more years until he is 25, I get more preventive care, and my sister (over 65) is losing the "doughnut hole" costs that were kiling her wallet.

We are all working and have been self-supporting citizens our whole life. We have contributed to medicare and social security for over 30 years, and are very compfortable with the benefits available. If they are not sufficient, we can go to the private sector to get supplemental coverage.

The GOP should be spending their time figuring out how to fix the budget and the debt WITHOUT cutting my medicare or ssi. Leave the healthcare legislation alone!!!!!!

Medicare and SSI are separate programs that are paid for by payroll deductions - not by taxes. If these programs need tweaking, OK - let's do it - but balance them separately from the rest of the budget paid for by TAXES. We are paying for Medicare and SSI already.

The rest of the budget paid for with taxes????? That is actually discretionary spending and THE MILITARY. Hey GOP/TP - get us some real results there - where they can be significant enough to make a real difference. Prove to me that you GOP/TP types are not the lap dogs of the military contractors and defense industry. CUT MILITARY SPENDING.

Troops in Iraq? OUT

Troops in Afghanistan? OUT

Troops in over 480 other locations throughout the world? OUT

Weapons systems that are outdated? OUT

Bring the troops home. All of them. Have them do what the constitution originally intended - protect us here at home. And - you would save between $200 and $400 BILLION every year!!! Wow THAT is real fiscal responsibility. Cutting a few million here and there will change nothing.

But will the GOP have the courage???? Does the military/defense industry own them????? Don't plan on them cutting what is really needed - or fixing the budget any time soon... Lots of talk by the GOP/TP, and campaign rhetoric, but NO fiscal discipline...

I LIKE the health care legislation. Leave mine alone.

PS - why did you collapse post #1? What are we trying to hide????

Wait a minute, i don't want insurance but the Obama says i must have it. I pay for my own health care and go to doctors i want. So why am i forced to buy it. Is this not a free country. Whats next is obama going to tell me what to eat and what time of day i should eat. I have no problem with people who want insurance that is there choice why are you taking mine away and then fine if i do not . I see they will tell our children what they can eat when in school and it doesn't matter what you want your kids to eat, the Obamas know better. Look at her backside, she must have a lot of garbage to get that big. So we have to pay the price of freedom of choice because they can't control what they eat or SMOKE. What a bunch of Liberal hippo crites.

Achick

Everybody needs health insurance. If you are rich you may have enough money to pay on your own, but most people can not afford a major health care issue to their family, because they could end up losing every thing. Only a fool would say he does not want health care and "Achick" you must be a fool.

You don't want insurance? Have you read the posts above? What would you do if you were in an accident and were billed hundreds of thousands of dollars for your recovery? Maybe you would expect the rest of us to pay for your care?

Only those who can prove they are millionaires or those who promise to just go off and die if they are seriously ill or injured should be allowed to be without insurance.

As far as the rest of your comments......never mind, what I would have said would be just too rude.

JA FROM NH

Everybody needs health insurance - quit your whinning just because you don't like Obama. You must be another Republican Tea Bagger fool.

This bill is bogus, and costs us far more than it's worth.

Much like our government.

It would be a good idea to look at the "entire" package instead of the part that you think is going to impact you. The objective of requiring everyone have insurance will be so when they get sick or need medical care (and they will @ some time) they are covered. Otherwise they would wait until they are sick to obtain insurance. You are simply doing yourself and your family a DIS-SERVICE by not getting regular checkups. In a long run this is going to save the insurance companies and patients money.

Well one thing I am certain of none of us are getting out of this alive. The new health plan will cost me about 200 more a month with medicaid increase and what not. A good thing? Hardly! So what do I pay, health insurance or my mortgage.

How is the "health care bill" going to impact us?

It isn't. It doesn't even kick in this year.

Maybe because the insurance companies think they'll need to jack the rates as high as possible so they can make as much as they can before they get some sort of regulation?

While many people will welcome the new benefits, some will face higher costs as a result of the law.

Bull@!$%#. "some" is an understatement. My families is higher, my friends' families is higher. Other than those 26 and younger, I don't know of ANYONE who will be paying less, or even moderately the same rates (it's understandable for the rates to raise with time, but this is ridiculous). Just received my packet from where I work... not fun stuff.

right on brother

achick

what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.

JUST BECAUSE YOU HAVE THE MONEY TO PAY FOR WHATEVER SERVICE YOU GET DOES NOT MEAN THATS THE CASE FOR THE REST OF US. THE COST IS KILLING US AND AS PEOPLE GET OLDER THEY GET SICKER AND HAVE MORE PROBLEMS THAN THE REST. THE PUBLIC OPTION WOULD HAVE CURED ALOT OF THESE PROBLEMS AND THE REPUBLICANS TURNED IT INTO A BOOGEY MAN. THANKS ALOT GUYS

You want to control healthcare costs, control illegal immigration. Putting the word reform on this bill is laughable. There is no reform in this. It's just a bunch of minor adjustments. The definition of reform is to bring about change to reduce or remove abuses or injustices. This does none of that. Lower rx costs for seniors is great but at higher medicare costs. Hmmm sounds a little fishy to me. You save money on rx so you can pay the government higher premiums. And what is the point of the government telling restaraunts they have to put calorie counts on the menus, that information was already available you just had to ask for it. I guess that was too much effort for some.

JUST BECAUSE YOU HAVE THE MONEY TO PAY FOR WHATEVER SERVICE YOU GET DOES NOT MEAN THATS THE CASE FOR THE REST OF US. THE COST IS KILLING US AND AS PEOPLE GET OLDER THEY GET SICKER AND HAVE MORE PROBLEMS THAN THE REST. THE PUBLIC OPTION WOULD HAVE CURED ALOT OF THESE PROBLEMS AND THE REPUBLICANS TURNED IT INTO A BOOGEY MAN. THANKS ALOT GUYS

Simple math: Take the monthly payments you make to insurance, divide it by how much you get back from insurance. Guess what!!! Its greater than 1. You know why? You give more money than you get back. Save your money and pay for healthcare with cash. It's called budgeting. Stop trolling. Reported.

EDIT: I'm not some rich guy, I'm a college student paying for college with... CASH that I'm... EARNING through a... JOB... while paying for moderately expensive medical costs associated with having severe asthma. I don't want to hear this bull@!$%# pity-party... live below your means and you'll do fine.

You're basically just a bankruptcy waiting to happen.

I'm with you achick. Being unemployed, I have to provide my own health insurance. Last November, my provider (the only one I could afford) wrote to tell me that because of many factors (including the new health care legislation) my premium would be going up 40% in January. Needless to say, I said thanks, but not thanks. It's possible they would have made this increase regardless of the new legislation, but the outcome is still the same - I will not have health insurance. If Obama wants to force me to buy insurance, he better offer something better than 10K a year for my family.

Your an idiot

Kmacman,

You're basically just a bankruptcy waiting to happen.

Are you talking to me or someone else?

If me:

How can I go bankrupt if I don't have any debt?
Think before you type.

If someone else:

Who?

Until we start putting each other ahead of the one true god in our society, THE DOLLAR! Perhaps we should abolish all health care. If there were NO hospitals/doctors, etc., you could save a lot of $$$ Just live the best you can, sick or not and die when it's your time. No one should give a crap, as according to many of you, doctors ONLY go into medicine for the $$$ anyway? I am truly concerned for you young, greedy folks. I am at an age where it does not matter much and you will ALL end up in the same way, DEAD. Be GOOD to each other while you have the chance, PLEASE!!!

Some years back, (at a time when I was unemployed) I went to an older Jewish Doctor in Burbank, Ca. (I am not Jewish) and he charged me $16 for the visit and a shot, ( most were charging about $25 then for office visit). I thought he made an error. He said, no, I just have more money than I need and I own this whole block where my office is and am only charging what it takes to pay the "girls in the office". I am still very moved by the thought of this beautiful human being. I am sure my grammer and spelling ain't so good, please chalk it up to old age. :) Peace!

I agree with the OP...especially if she is in a low-risk demographic, like the college student posted above. It's the 80/20 rule, where 80% of healthcare dollars are going to help the few who need the most (usually most expensive) care. Those of us in low risk groups should be paying proportionately less. Unfortunately, the only thing I've seen so far from this health care reform is I just paid for my once-free flu shot under the same provider.

Low-risk groups could get a discount, but they would still have to buy health insurance. Otherwise, they are risking OUR money, not their own. Nobody can pay for a catastrophic illness themselves.

The scams are coming from the INSURANCE industry not the govenment. Alot of these costs are because the well to do's who own these "DEATH PANELLS" are only about PROFIT and the most they can get at ALL cost even the consumers life they are deciding what care we recieve and if it is necessary, well if it has a chance to save someones life it is most definatly necessary, if you disagree with that then I say next ime you are seriously ill DO NOT GO TO THE HOSPITAL stay at home and fix it yourself then tell us how you feel..... I mean really guys where does GREED at the cost of life end....

The Public option would have solved ALOT of these problems that are going on. The REPUBLICANS turned it into a boogey man because they knew that insurance companies would not be able to just keep raping us dry after the bill was passed.....

As for K CHAD so what if you have another illness do you have life time limits ? Is there a cut off point ? Will your provider get rid of you if you become too costly ???? What if something sever happens such as cancer (GOD FORBID) would you be able to pay for the costs if you can not work??? These are issuies we all have to look into and if you think the insurance company you pay every month on time is going to look out for your well being then you are sadly mistaken. My grand mother had such a plan and you know what she got sick and became too costly so the insurance company tried to drop her at her weakest point when she was on her death bed... THESE crooks need to be held accountable we should be treated as people not just a profit margin but with all republicans it will never be so because thats who pays their bills.......

Just another typical comment of another typical shirker of the responsibility of US Citizenship...

"It doesn't affect me, so I don't see the point of paying for it."

Citizenship has benefits, rights and RESPONSIBILITIES.

Just because I may NEVER visit Yellowstone National Park in my lifetime, doesn't mean I am not responsible for paying for it's upkeep, maintenance, and making it BETTER.

Just because I may never utilize the American safety net doesn't mean I have the right not to pay for it. The American safety net, just like Yellowstone are the jewels in the crown of every American, and without them being maintained to world-class standards, devalues US citizenship as a whole.

Perception is Reality.

Low-risk groups could get a discount, but they would still have to buy health insurance. Otherwise, they are risking OUR money, not their own. Nobody can pay for a catastrophic illness themselves.

Talking out of both sides of you're mouth here. If it was just about catastrophic illnesses, then the healthcare reform would only tax to pay for catastrophic illnesses. That is not the case.

Even if you have health insurance you can still go broke paying your percentage. I pd. $3200 for my son's broken wrist..out of pocket!! It would have been 10 grand without!!!!!

JA from NH

Nothing really new ... maybe you went to school and maybe in elementary school you learned about the food pyramids that assisted you with guidance to a supposedly ... as far as really forcing you when to eat and what to eat ... that goes back to that cliche "... you can lead a horse to water..." or was it "... You can lead a Jack A$s to water..."

As for K CHAD so what if you have another illness do you have life time limits ? Is there a cut off point ? Will your provider get rid of you if you become too costly ???? What if something sever happens such as cancer (GOD FORBID) would you be able to pay for the costs if you can not work??? These are issuies we all have to look into and if you think the insurance company you pay every month on time is going to look out for your well being then you are sadly mistaken. My grand mother had such a plan and you know what she got sick and became too costly so the insurance company tried to drop her at her weakest point when she was on her death bed... THESE crooks need to be held accountable we should be treated as people not just a profit margin but with all republicans it will never be so because thats who pays their bills.......

I'm saying that my insurance has little to do with it. If I get cancer this early on (before I establish a sufficient pool of money to be prepared for something like that) then I'm totally @!$%#ed anyways (in more ways than financially). I never planned on having health insurance (unless provided by my employer) when I finished school. I'm sorry to hear about your grandmother and the insurance fiasco that she went through, but I think you missunderstand my position. I'm against government healthcare, and I will personally NOT GET INSURANCE. I'll take advantage of insurance that would be provided to me by employers/parents(now), but it is not part of my personal plan. I work on a money-buffer system... meaning i save for events that I plan for, and leave large emergency funds for ones that I can't possibly anticipate. I don't deal with fake/arbitrary/imaginary numbers than many others do. I won't deal with the uncertainty of insurance companies, because I don't plan on depending on them.

If I do get cancer, what happens from there is kinda dependent on what type it is. I can't imagine what type I could get at this age really, but there are cheap answers to skin/breast/testi/etc cancers. Stuff more internal than that, idk. That would suck, and although I happen to have insurance currently, I don't think I'll be basing the root of my decision on how much treatment I can squeeze from it. It's quite early, and it's a minuscule chance that something like that'd happen. It's like trying to financially plan for being robbed of everything you own.

This healthcare bill is for those who cannot/do-not plan for the future. I have a plan, and do not wish to be a burden to ANYONE but myself. I love my family, and we've always been there for each other. Even still, I do not wish for my two older brothers to pay for my stupid-ass body. It's mine to take care of. Hands off!

"Achick" You haven't to date but eventually you will need insurance, or file bankruptcy when you're hit with a catastrophic bill.

achick- you are a moron . If you get cancer unless you are a millionaire you will not be able to pay for the care that you will need . So you can keep your mindless remarks to your self .

Kchad but if you do get sick and cant pay for it who do you think is going to pay the cost if you pass on?? its Your family that will be left with the bills reguardless of your wishes thats how the INSURANCE INDUSTRY works..

B.Power,

I'm taking my own risks with the way I plan. You're right though, there are actually many logistical difficulties to get past if i didn't have insurance. For example, hospitals would give me a back seat if I don't have it, even IF I have the cash to pay for the treatment.

If I somehow became catastrophically ill with some sort of cancer that would cost millions of dollars to treat... I would refuse treatment. Hell, I'd probably seek out the most crazy sounding experimental treatment instead... medical pioneers would love to get their hands on live test subjects. To hell with leaving behind medical bills for my family to deal with, I'm not that selfish. As for when I'm older? I won't be starting a family until I'm financially ready to handle such a scenario.

There are more options than you recognize.

You need some humility. One day you will get a reality check with either yourself or someone you love and you will think about what you have said. Guaranteed!

I will refuse treatment? I will not utilize the programs? What complete and utter lies these are...you have never been seriously ill which is great...but you will be the first to ask for all you can get and more when you are...and leave anyone else to pick up the bills. Stupidity and arrogance often meet. Congratulations

How will you be impacted by the health care law this year?

It still only depends on if my employer continues to give me health insurance. My parents are old, if the Medicare cuts will bite us before the promised plan kicks in is a gamble I can't lay odds on.

As a common American, I will choose what I had in the past over a politician's promises of tomorrow.

B.Power

Kchad but if you do get sick and cant pay for it who do you think is going to pay the cost if you pass on?? its Your family that will be left with the bills reguardless of your wishes thats how the INSURANCE INDUSTRY works..

I can answer this one for you. If a person dies, no one is responsible for the remaining bills. How do I know? That is what happened when my mother died, her bills died too. My father did not have to pay a cent on any of her bills.

The article white washes the problems and paints us a beautiful picture of what will be. Unfortunately, the Health Care Reform Law only covers Health Insurance Reform, and it does nothing to guarantee anyone health care when needed.

All of the people on here are pointing out such things as if you have an accident or if you have a catastrophic illness how can you pay your bills? The answer to those questions - Standard health insurance policies do not cover you for accidents. If someone hits you with their car, their car insurance must cover the costs. If you are injured at someone's house, their homeowners policy takes the hit. If you get a catastrophic illness, you may find that the fine print of your health care policy excludes certain coverages. When you become old enough to need a nursing home, the government will still claim all of your assets to pay the costs as insurance policies do not cover this. This includes your home, your vehicle, your bank accounts, and anything else or value that they can get their hands on.

This law did nothing other than shore up the insurance companies by forcing you to pay for insurance. Insurance is a form of gambling. You are paying someone large sums of money - none of which is being banked for your expenses - in the hopes that when you need it, you will have coverage. The bad part is that when you need it, you will be out of work with little or no income and the first late or missed payment will end any obligation on the part of the insurance company to you. All of the money that you could have banked - about $25,000 per year for a family of 3, will have gone into profit for the insurance company other than the 1 or 2 months that you were able to keep up with the payments after your catastrophic illness struck. Also don't forget that you will have to buy insurance again if you were in a decent wage bracket for most of the year or face a fine for not doing so.

So when you get an expencive disease like cancer and you lose your home and have to declare backruptcy because your bill is over 750 K you will wish proper health insurance reform had been instituted.

achick & K Chad Roberts. You only think this way because the only thing medical you have ever needed so far in your life was an inexpensive Dr visit or some penicillin. If you ever had to be admitted into the hospital for something you would come out with a bill for up to $30,000 per day spent there. K Chad you may be a young healthy college student and may have no debt but if you suddenly needed an appendectomy (fairly common) you would find yourself with a massive hospital bill you couldn't pay back. This is what insurance is for. We pay a smaller amount over time so that when something catastrophic happens we are covered. Same thing with car insurance. You may have an old car that isn't worth anything and you don't carry collision or comprehensive insurance on it but in order to drive you must have liability insurance because you have the potential to cause hundreds of thousands of dollars or more worth of damage to other people's property. So even though you may be able to buy yourself another $2000 car without an insurance payout you would not be able to afford to fix the $100,000s worth of damage you may have caused without the insurance company payout.

Can we assume that you also do not have auto insurance or homeowners insurance as well? I hope for your sake that you are not in an auto accident or your house does not burn down.

My son was in a bad auto accident and the EMS helicopter ride to the trauma hospital 45 miles away cost $13,000 and his hospital and rehab. cost another $100,000. That was beyond the equity of our home. Since we had both health and auto insurance, we did not pay anything (except the premiums and my wife’s loss of income when she left her job for 6 months to help him get back on his feet again). You just never know when catastrophe will strike. Insurance helps us have one less worry.

I honor your efforts to stay healthy, however, if you ever do need medical care beyond your ability to pay, then the costs for everyone else goes up.

Achick--Then I'm sure you would also approve that it be deemed unconstitutional to require all hospital ERs to care for you (without insurance) regardless of whether they will be repaid. When people refuse to insure themselves and then develop serious problems, those of us paying our insurance premiums and hospitals foot the bill eventually. Also, I think you would then agree to pay at the moment you seek any care, in full, prior to receiving that care, to guarantee all medical professionals that they will be paid and won't incur any billing costs.

You have been fortunate to date, but one's health is never guaranteed. Just suppose you get very sick soon and since you state you have never had health insurance and just have been paying on your own, you suddenly owe hundreds of thousands or even a few million dollars for your health care. It would almost certainly bankrupt you, you would loose everything you own and then you would expect the rest of us to bale you out even though you took a chance when you were younger on getting rich and not buying health insurance like you and all should have been required to do. Its time to cut you off from cheating us. We need a fair health plan for all Americans to cover all Americans. Everybody needs health coverage sooer or later and we all should be required to pay for it. Health is a right and not a privlege. It is not negotiable and Americans shoud not put up with individuals like you trying to take advantage of the health system by not contributing your fair share all your life. You have already cheated all of us enough. pay up!

Insurance is not a form of gambling, it's a method for spreading the risk of needing help to a larger pool of potential claimants. As some of the writers have commented, you may be young and healthy now, so the cost of medical care may not be so high when compared with the cost of insurance premiums. But, over time, the need for medical attention grows, and even young people get cancer, accidentally fall from heights, and have single-car accidents, and most young people are ill-equipped to pay for catastrophic illnesses or accidents not attributable to 3rd parties.

Of course, the other 24 countries that comprise the top 25 industrial nations of the world have some form of universal health care or single payer health insurance. In those countries, personal wealth does not dictate whether or to what extent you receive medical attention; only medical need, regardless if manifested by members of the poor or the rich, dictates who receives medical benefits. Profit is not a motive, and the people of those 24 countries enjoy good health as a matter of right, not chance.

One commentator once said that the reason the United States is alone in not having single payer or universal coverage is that it is a special country with special needs. That's utter BS. The only thing that differentiates this country from the other heavily industrialized countries that have universal coverage is that we have greedy corporations that have more political power through campaign contributions than any of the advocates for broader, cheaper coverage. 55%-80% of the American people wanted a public option to offer competition to rates set by private insurers, but only 41 senators seemed to favor it. The only way to explain this gulf between public preference and political implementation is that Big Insurance and Big Pharma poured vast sums of money into politicians campaign coffers to safeguard and enhance their profits. The Republican Party and the faux, so-called Blue Democrats were the political engines that elevated the greed of these corporation over the public's welfare by ginning up false arguments that misled and continue to mislead dull-witted people too gullible and badly educated to know chicanery when they see it.

These days, too many of our countrymen have so little compassion or civic mindedness to act for a greater good. It's all about me and mine and to hell with the rest. Instead of offering solace and support for the infirm, the aged, the disenfranchised, these so-called Christians are quite willing to ignore or even make fun of the needs of others. It's really quite pathetic.

Self insurance sounds great. I just broke my ankle badly enough to need surgery. The hospital was $8,500 and the surgery was $12,000 (they gave me a break because of no insurance). So, I am out over $17,000 and I am "healthy". Now, imagine I needed heart surgery or a transplant. The choices are bankruptcy or death (or a miracle). Is prayer your health insurance policy, or do you just figure to die?

People who earn over $1,000,000 per year have no need for health insurance. Most who pay are donors instead of beneficiaries.

The reason you need health Insurance is because in 1968 Health Insurance was "encouraged" by the fed to be in the hands of employers. At first, most employers paid for the entire health insurance bill. This meant that going to the doctor was "FREE". The flood of people to medical services began. Visits soon outpaced insurance premiums and insurance companies raised premiums to cover the surge in demand. Eventually employers said "That's too much".

To keep the business, Health Insurance started limiting payments for services. Doctors raised fees to compensate for the discounts to health Insurance. Eventually Insurance companies formed Networks of Doctors with negotiated fees. Again doctors raised fees - today doctors fees are between 2 times to 4 times higher than costs - just to be able to negotiate down to cost.

Meanwhile to keep employers business - Insurance set life-time maximums to arrive a insurance premiums employers were willing to pay. Lower maximums meant people loosing coverage when they needed it most.

I would challenge anyone to compare an HSA to a PPO health insurance plans from the same company. The difference in combined premiums and actual payments works out to around $200 per month. With the PPO - that's $200 per month you are paying for people who abuse the health system. The abusers don't use HSA insurance - because they pay both the co-pay and the insurance portions for all drugs and medical visits until their annual deductible is met.

Now, for those who think the public option will work. What you do is start at the beginning of the Employers becoming the chief source for health insurance. There is one big difference - the government in the end will run both the employer and insurance company. The government will figure out, or at least finally admit that the only way to control the cost of health care is to ration it's use through incidental third party means.

The first step is voluntary or mandatory end of life counselling. This should be between you and your lawyer only - not medical or government sponsored committees or agents. The dirty little secret is that when you are older, you may not think as clearly about this, especially under duress of a unfavorable diagnosis. Why you would do this then is the same reason a sales person has no problems selling senior citizens on home repairs, new insurances, car repairs, bad investments, etc....

I Live in Massachusetts with universal health care. what a desaster! Our health care costs are completely out of control. I have heard that we have the highest cost in the country? We even fine people and families that can't afford the huge cost, unless you are undocumented. What a country! All I ask is that I be treated like an illegal in this great Commonwealth of Massachusetts. You should check out our cost since this law went into effect, unbelievable!

What's your history of car insurance claims? Be honest. I'll bet you that, you or someone in your family, needed that to avoid disaster. Same principal with healthcare. If you've had perfect health thus(me too) far, give thanks, but we'll all need it sometime in the future, and hope that it won't cost us our entire savings to live a few extra years. Google "America's ranking in health care vs. the world", and you'll see how lucky you are to be haelthy, but unlucky if your not. We rank at the bottom of all countries in the world. Sleep well tonight amigo.

Hollywoodunderground: "For-profit" is what BROKE the medical system in the first place."

Hospitals base their prices on what Medicaid and Medicare will pay. That is why healthcare is so expensive. If we took away all socialist programs and allowed competition between hospitals and places of care the prices would drop dramatically. It would be similar to what happened with flat screen TV's. Competition has driven the price down so now they are affordable for most Americans. Healthcare providers don't have to worry about lowering their prices for competition because they know that every healthcare provider is going to get paid the same rate (set by the socialist programs).

@ K CHAD Roberts post 2.39 I get what you are posting. I wish you nothing but good in what you are doing in life. Keep up the good work.

I love it all of you what iffers.

You people totally miss the point. The facts are if you are serious about your health you will take the necessary precautions. Stay fit, not eat fast food daily. Blah, blah blah. We have all been bombarded with the dos and don'ts.

I am one of those people who eat proper meals, and am very active. Have only been to the family doctor 3 time in the last ten years. But my health insurance cost are still rising.

Anyone care to guess why? Probably due to the rising cost of malpractice insurance. Due to the get rich quickers. Or the I'll sue you crowd. Now I have to pay for someone else who does not eat properly and is a couch potato. Some who has high blood pressure due to weight. I agree not everyone can be 6'1" 220lbs but there are a lot of people out there who abuse the system, which only drives up the costs for everyone else.

I am sorry if this offends anyone but I hate being told I have to buy this when I do not use what I have now.

I wouldn't seek medical care for any "catastrophic" illnesses. Not all of us are afraid of our mortality. Nor would I care for any "life-saving" treatment; death should happen when it is supposed to occur. Rest assured, none of you will be spending any money on me. I have no interest in fattening the pocketbooks of big pharma or insurance.

Oh and, I happen to be an old gal...just not afraid of either pain or death.

one car accident, being hit by a drunk driver is all it would take for you to change your mind since you probably don't have auto insurance either, I'm sure the drunk won't have any either.

I don't allow my children to go around without Health Insurance!!

That would be really dumb!!!!!!

Auto insurance, being required, is still ultimately a choice. It is not an absolute necessity to drive a car. However, forcing someone to purchase something simply by virtue of being alive is unconstitutional. Mlay, I am not sure where you suggesting a rhetorical situation would change my views.

I have to assume, based on your ridiculous position regarding health insurance, you also do not carry auto insurance or home owner's insurance and certainly not any form of life insurance. You're apparently immune from any possible tragedy. Wow! That's really slick. What's your secret? If I were you, I'd bottle that secret and put it on Ebay, or even better, go for an IPO.

On further consideration, based on your health insurance hypothesis, that you have found the way to avoid paying social security and medicare. You must have, because they are government mandated and have been found to be constitutional long ago. That secret should also be bottled and put on EBay to help all us suckers who follow the law and pay taxes.

As I said above, with regards to auto insurance being required, that is acceptable considering it is not a necessity to drive a car. However, compulsory health insurance by the simple virtue of being alive is a violation of my civil liberties. I'm not immune to illness or accidents, I've had plenty of both in my many years of life. I just don't run off to the ER/doctor's office for every little thing. I've set my own broken bones, I've sutured my own wounds, I've performed my fair share of home surgeries...my secret is I'm not a hypochondriac or a wussy.

When I was still working, of course those were deducted from my pay, however, I have never claimed any monies/programs/services that I may qualify for.

This is nonsense. You live in a society with others. You do not have the right nor privilege to undermine our society. Get over it, you selfish person.

You know my dog got hit by a car in 1982. The vet waited till I came rushing in from work, then had to go get cash, to even look at my dog or start treatment, any treatment.

How would you all like it if our medical care was like that for humans?

Well guess what? it is. And without at least this legislation, it will just get worse.

We need the Public Option.

By not being a burden on society, I am doing anything but undermining it. I give freely and frequently to charitable causes. I do not spend money for myself on medical care. If I chose to seek medical care for any reason, then yes, I would certainly make sure I could afford it prior to obtaining it. If I couldn't afford it, then I wouldn't obtain it (simple really, one shouldn't buy what one can not afford). If it were a case of "serious illness" (as so many here fuss about), and I could not afford medical care, then I would simply plan to die. No big deal.

Insurance (for me) is the equivalent of taking my cash and throwing it out the window.

Any financial benefits I receive from the government now days go straight to my paper shredder. If they feel they can placate me with some paltry monthly sums after robbing me for years, they are sadly mistaken. Taxes to cover public services such as fire, police, military? Absolutely. Anything beyond that, I don't want or need Big Brother's help in watching out for my well being.

So who pays if your in an accident and can't work after.The tax payers of course.

ACHICk.... with all due respect for your opinion, not having health insurance is totally crazy!! My Wife and I are in good physical health and dont spend a lot at Docs since we dont get sick very often. She had to have back surgery to repair 2 degenerative discs in her back. The bill so far is almost $90,000 for four days in hospital for surgery and recuperation. Thank God we had insurance that covers most of it, except for some co-pays. We could have never come up with that kind of cash at the spur of the moment. Could you? I dont think most people could. So glad I have insurance, for reasons like this.

f I couldn't afford it, then I wouldn't obtain it (simple really, one shouldn't buy what one can not afford). If it were a case of "serious illness" (as so many here fuss about), and I could not afford medical care, then I would simply plan to die. No big deal.

this is crazy. suppose that you get into a car accident, bus accident, or get hit by a car while crossing the street (i hope that this does not happen.), then you could end up being treated without even realizing it. you could amass $250,000 in medical costs or more before you even woke up several days later in the intensive care unit. it would be too late to refuse treatment at that point.

Regarding achick's comment: You have been fortunate that you have been healthy and have thus far not needed health insurance.
But a day will come that you do need medical care, perhaps surgery, or rehabilitation for injuries sustained in an accident, and that bill could rise to greater than $100,000.00. Could you pay that out of pocket? As a nurse, I have met very few people who have not needed some type of expensive medical care by the time they are seniors. When you can't pay the bill, guess who does.

What's almost comical is that, within this string of comments, there are lots of people (including me) that have gotten gouged on health insurance premium increases for this year. if President Obama had had his way, there would be a non- profit pool for health insurance, with lower premiums available, in order to keep traditional health insurance companies honest. Well, the Republicans chopped that out of the plan, and everyone cheered. Doesn't sound like such a bad idea now, does it? Now, if the tea baggers have their way, we'll all be left to our own devises to pay for health care. God help us all.

JJPP
You need some humility. One day you will get a reality check with either yourself or someone you love and you will think about what you have said. Guaranteed!

STFU about the humility crap! I'm not stopping you from getting your care, nor am I stopping my loved ones from getting theirs. The only person this'll effect is me.

On the other hand, the liberals ARE forcing me to get something that I don't want at this point in time. Who's raping who here?

I will refuse treatment? I will not utilize the programs? What complete and utter lies these are...you have never been seriously ill which is great...but you will be the first to ask for all you can get and more when you are...and leave anyone else to pick up the bills. Stupidity and arrogance often meet. Congratulations

You don't know me... You've made several arrogant statements yourself:

Assuming I've never been seriously ill
Assuming that I would be the first to go for treatments that I can't afford
Assuming that I'll leave the bills to whomever

Do you seriously think that everyone in this world is a bunch of selfish @!$%#s? Would you do that? If so... then I've made clear what I think of you. Who's being arrogant here? Unlike much of todays populous, I have a sense of honor. Even if a situation arises that I owed more than I could afford, and I'd have to go bankrupt, I'd still find a way to pay it back... and if I'm dead, then I'm dead. No longer a drain on you're precious system that I'm doing my best to avoid. GTF off my back. I HAVE gone to the hospital for serious conditions before. I have severe asthma, as such, things like... the flu (any form of it) are deadly to me. I've caught it several times in my lifetime and every time I've had to seek treatment or die. The most recent time, I had to go to the ER (and spent a while there) because my nebulizer medication wasn't cutting it. Each time I've had to use steroids. I'm also one of those unlucky 1% that suffer from mono EVERY YEAR. You think that's a simple disease to deal with annually? I'm also very susceptible to bronchitis, and many other respatory diseases. I know full well what it would have cost me, and I'm telling you: IT'S AFFORDABLE WHEN COMPARED TO INSURANCE COSTS.

You keep throwing things at me like: Heart surgery? Cancer?

Do you really expect me have those issues this early on in my life? As I said before, I'm the type that SAVES MONEY rather than spends it. I don't take out loans, everything in cash! What about that do you guys not understand? I'll have these tens of thousands of dollars just sitting in mutual funds waiting to be used for said emergencies. They'll be at hundreds of thousands (in equivalent inflated value) by the time I reach the stage where I may need heart surgery, but AGAIN, if I take care of myself (which people are more apt to do when they're spending their own money directly for treatment) these things are less of a risk. I wish to holy my health accountable to only myself and you guys trash me for it? @!$%# OFF!

k chad

The only person this'll effect is me.

this is potentially, and probably, false. if you are hit by a car tomorrow and require care and surgeries totaling $500,000, then you will have become a liability to society.

Mike,

you must have liability insurance because you have the potential to cause hundreds of thousands of dollars or more worth of damage to other people's property. So even though you may be able to buy yourself another $2000 car without an insurance payout you would not be able to afford to fix the $100,000s worth of damage you may have caused without the insurance company payout.

I pay extra for more liability coverage. This is different. Health insurance is for me, liability is for others. I don't want others to have to pay for my dumb-ass self. You're right about the car though =P Payed $2000 for a $4500 car... and I plan on driving it until it disintegrates.

Tom, sorry to hear about your son. I hope he's well.

Dr B

Achick--Then I'm sure you would also approve that it be deemed unconstitutional to require all hospital ERs to care for you (without insurance) regardless of whether they will be repaid. When people refuse to insure themselves and then develop serious problems, those of us paying our insurance premiums and hospitals foot the bill eventually. Also, I think you would then agree to pay at the moment you seek any care, in full, prior to receiving that care, to guarantee all medical professionals that they will be paid and won't incur any billing costs.

I'm not opposed to paying taxes on emergency services... but that's not what this bill is. It's a full blown plan that is mandatory. Also, what I'm stating as a plan is not a society changing policy/idea! It's the way I choose to live within this society. Currently, we are treated at the ER regardless of if we can afford it. I have enough honor to hold myself to a self imposed standard of paying for these costs, either at that point, or as soon as I can. I'm the type who would pay what I owe after a bankruptcy.

These days, too many of our countrymen have so little compassion or civic mindedness to act for a greater good. It's all about me and mine and to hell with the rest. Instead of offering solace and support for the infirm, the aged, the disenfranchised, these so-called Christians are quite willing to ignore or even make fun of the needs of others. It's really quite pathetic.

I'm atheist, and again, I don't mind paying for emergency services, and I'm supportive of charity giving, and HELPING PEOPLE DIRECTLY. You know... human to human aid. I'm not interested in paying a faceless gov. beurocrat to do the helping for me. I'll do it myself with my money and my time. If someone was being beaten up in an ally, would you stop to help? Or would you call the police first? Us "people' are the type that would choose to help immediately... but in this F'd up society, we could be sued if we broke the assailants noes. Get off your high horses...

800 lb. gorilla
k chad

The only person this'll effect is me.

this is potentially, and probably, false. if you are hit by a car tomorrow and require care and surgeries totaling $500,000, then you will have become a liability to society.

Ever heard of a living will?

fordays
@ K CHAD Roberts post 2.39 I get what you are posting. I wish you nothing but good in what you are doing in life. Keep up the good work.

Thank you.

achick,

Best of luck. I like you're life philosophy.

Those who say 100k bills are un-affordable,

Have you ever TRIED saving before? Try saving up to buy that TV rather than putting it on the credit card. It works, it's easy, and you're more conscious about your money when you do it.

Many people don't even consider saving to buy big things, but really, is it that hard? Live way below your means and SAVE for that 300k house. You don't have to marry the second you get out of high-school. If you're not comfortable and happy with yourself, by yourself... then you shouldn't be seeking a relationship anyways.

800 lb. gorilla
k chad

The only person this'll effect is me.

this is potentially, and probably, false. if you are hit by a car tomorrow and require care and surgeries totaling $500,000, then you will have become a liability to society.

Ever heard of a living will?

this is mostly moot, since the vast majority of people do not have a living will.

I pay extra for more liability coverage. This is different. Health insurance is for me, liability is for others. I don't want others to have to pay for my dumb-ass self. You're right about the car though =P Payed $2000 for a $4500 car... and I plan on driving it until it disintegrates.

essentially, it is liability insurance against unforeseen health care costs. many people incur huge medical debt, which they can not pay, and the costs are shifted to the taxpayer. you are already paying these costs, whether you have insurance, or not, so you might as well get on board, and everyone will be paying their own way with their own insurance. what is the difference if you spend it on health care costs, or on increased taxes? you are still going to get hit, either way.

K Chad, what if you get afflicted by something catastrophic at your young (or young-ish) age? Then what? Your savings account would not have had the chance to grow as you predicted and could very well wipe out everything you have saved for. Yes taking good care of yourself is a great step, but many serious illnesses cannot be planned for or really prevented, that can strike in early adulthood as well as much later in life...MS, leukemia, GBM, melanoma, CIDP, lymphoma, epilepsy, etc. What if you have a kid who is born with a severe heart condition? You are correct, the ER has to treat you. But not the cancer clinic, the neurology clinic, the heart clinic...etc.

k chad

Bull@!$%#. "some" is an understatement. My families is higher, my friends' families is higher. Other than those 26 and younger, I don't know of ANYONE who will be paying less, or even moderately the same rates (it's understandable for the rates to raise with time, but this is ridiculous). Just received my packet from where I work... not fun stuff.

if your rates went up, then that is because a private company raised them. health care reform did not force them to do this, or even cause it directly. you may be misplacing the blame.

if your rates went up, then that is because a private company raised them. health care reform did not force them to do this, or even cause it directly. you may be misplacing the blame.

I'll go and find the packet and type what it says when I have the opportunity. You are wrong about this.

K Chad, what if you get afflicted by something catastrophic at your young (or young-ish) age? Then what? Your savings account would not have had the chance to grow as you predicted and could very well wipe out everything you have saved for.

I understand this. This is a calculated risk that I'm taking.

What if you have a kid who is born with a severe heart condition?

And I've already said over and over. Buffering money... And if i accidentally have a kid too soon, then I'll take steps to account for being a responsible husband/dad. If that means swallowing my plan and getting *cringe* health insurance... then I will. But as I've said repetatively, I DO NOT PLAN TO DO THIS. I plan to save for everything.

Ever heard of a living will?

this is mostly moot, since the vast majority of people do not have a living will.

We're not talking about the vast majority here... we're talking about me and people like me. It is not moot. you responeded to my statement of :

The only person this'll effect is me.

by saying

this is potentially, and probably, false. if you are hit by a car tomorrow and require care and surgeries totaling $500,000, then you will have become a liability to society.

still talking about only me here... I responded:

Ever heard of a living will?

Then you generalize it:

this is mostly moot, since the vast majority of people do not have a living will.

. . . Please stay on track.

k chad

I'll go and find the packet and type what it says when I have the opportunity. You are wrong about this.

are you saying that the private company, which raised your rates told you it was the government's fault, or something? really? i mean i find it hard to believe that the government sent you something that explained that they were raising your insurance rates when they are not your provider.

the health care reform attempted to create a pool of shared responsibility. you may feel that you are only responsible for yourself, but that is not true. as i have said, you already pay for this through taxation. others are also responsible for you. in your living will, does it say that if you break both legs and your back and are in an induced coma for a month that you do not want to be treated because if it does not, then you will be treated and the costs will be passed along to everyone else. at your young age, it seems hard to believe that you have saved $500,000 or more. if you have not, then mostly you have been talking out of your rear end. you can not refuse treatment if you are not conscious. you will be treated, and if you can not pay, or declare bankruptcy, then the costs are passed on to everyone else.

Ever heard of a living will?

this is mostly moot, since the vast majority of people do not have a living will.

We're not talking about the vast majority here... we're talking about me and people like me. It is not moot. you responded to my statement of :

we are debating about health care reform, not whether k chad will be able to pay his medical bills or not. you are just not on everyone's radar, i am afraid. also, i have explained why it is not only you of which we speak. you were just the example. many, many young people without insurance get hurt or sick, and can not or will not pay. it is shared responsibility, unless of course, you do not pay taxes, and have never contributed a dime to the government coffers. if that is the case, then you are an island.

it is to be commended that you are fiscally responsible and that you pull your own weight, but even the strongest among us need help from time to time. if you choose to go your own route, then i hope that you will never need assistance from anyone else.

The packet comes from a national laboratory that is non-profit. We (myself and my mother) were also effected by they pay freeze on government workers. The packet mentioned something to the effect of: "Due to new government regulations and such, medical costs will be raised and although we'll do our best to pay for most of it, you'll have to pay more than you used to".

I understand what you're saying, and I understand the intent of this reform is to share responsibility. I don't mind helping others, and I don't mind others helping me BY CHOICE. What this is, however, is a rape of our fiscal liberties. Recognize that there is a difference between fixing a corruption in ER costs, and this healthcare reform. If the measures taken were to ONLY pay for/stop abuse of the ER system, then I'd pay without complaint, but this is a very disturbing breach in my freedom as a consumer.

I'm not so headstrong that I won't take advantage of what is available to me after all is said and done. I've already said that I'm on my parents health-plan, and if I'm forced to pay into a system (this reform, medicare, ss) then I'm most definitely going to use it. However I am still avidly against the creation of these systems. I should not be forced to pay for a service that I don't think I need. What about this is so difficult to understand? If you think I'm stupid for it, fine. LET ME BE STUPID.

I'm in the process of writing my living will right now (I've been prompted to do so as well as update my will after a discussion of "who gets what and who takes care of who" in the event of both parent's deaths). I do not need a living will at this time cuz I have insurance provided for me. My previous statements still stand, however. Regardless of whether or not I do have insurance, I will have a large pool of money to take care of emergencies. If i never have to touch it cuz our country turns into a padded shelter geared towards those whom don't know not to stick their fingers into electric outlets, then fine... but I will not be a dependent looser.

k chad

i never said you were stupid. i just believe that we have a shared responsibility when it comes to health care. as i said, we already pay for those who can not pay through higher taxes, so we pay either way.

I'm in the process of writing my living will right now (I've been prompted to do so as well as update my will after a discussion of "who gets what and who takes care of who" in the event of both parent's deaths).

my wife said i need to write one, so i will be doing so after a while.

the government often makes laws with which i can not agree. an example is the seat belt law. i hate wearing my seat belt. i am a very active driver, and i have actually been injured several times (neck strain, skin rubbed raw on my neck and shoulders) by my seat belt while just driving. if i ever have an accident because i pull my neck when straining against the seat belt, and this causes me to have a momentary lapse of reason, then i think that i will sue. i actually wish to get a waiver, so that i do not have to wear my seat belt. all that said, i look at the health care law as similar. you still have a choice as to whether to buy insurance or not, but if you choose not to do so, then you have to pay your share toward increasing medical costs on your tax return. in other words, you will be penalized for not having insurance, but you do not have to buy it.

have a good one!

have a good one!

You too!

My premiums went up 23% so I elected to downgrade my coverage to a lesser plan with higher co-pays. It's the largest single jump in coverage costs I have seen in 18 years. Even the lesser plan costs me about 7% more per month than I was previously paying.

Nothing like government meddling to reduce services, while still increasing my co-pays and premiums. Way to go!

what is not being mentioned is that even before the gov got involved medical costs were skyrocketing..including the premiums, it was like 25-30%. All before the gov got involved. The increases are likly not because of the new healthcare laws...we will see that next year.

Mom of Four, you would be paying it anyway. I know that our insurance has gone up EVERY YEAR for the last fifteen years my husband has been with his company. Don't fool yourself that the changes to health care are to blame.

Kash you are exactly right. If health insurance was carried for major medical only and we were pay-go on routine stuff, the premiums could look totally different. You don't carry auto insurance to pay for an oil change on your car, why does health insurance pay for you to spend 5 minutes with the doc for a sinus infection? I'll even concede on preventive services- you get your annual check up, screening tests as recommended and major medical for hospitalizations/major illnesses, that sort of thing, but come out of pocket for office visits and the likes. Doctors could charge reasonable rates and probably make bigger profits, people being charged a reasonable rate for the 10 minutes they see the doctor for would be more likely to go in for things than when they have to come out of pocket $120 or more for that 10 minutes because they have to meet a deductible and insurance premiums could be lower because insurance companies wouldn't be processing claims for stubbed toes at $120 a pop.

The problem with HCR as enacted is that it does nothing to address the reality of what's making our health care so expensive while handing a cash cow to the insurance companies for the foreseeable future.

You , betcha. I worked in the medical field and with pharmaceutical companies for multiple years - they are just watching their bottom line, reaping their bonuses, and still laying people off. Oh yes, that might be to offset the money they pay to their lobbyists.

hollywood:

"Don't fool yourself that the changes to health care are to blame."

And don't fool yourself to think that they aren't to blame. I live in Massachusetts where we have mandated healthcare already.

Our premiums are the highest in the country. Our healthcare costs have risen over 50% since RomneyCare was enacted in 2006. The cost of the program to the state has gone up by over $150 million per year than the original 2006 projections.

My coverage has sunk over the last four years, but I still pay higher premiums every year.

I started with a PPO with 80% out of network coverage in 2006. That was changed to a HMO with no out of network coverage in 2008 (because the PPO was too expensive for the company). In 2009, my company had to go to a high deductible HMO with co-pays where I had to pay co-pays for my doctor visits and medication, plus I had to pay a $1,000.00 deductible out of pocket for certain tests and doctor's visits.

Now I have a high deductible HMO without copays, which means nothing except my yearly exam is covered (and anything they consider "preventative") until I pay $1,500.00 out of pocket first. That means I pay full price for my medications and doctor's visits until I pay $1,500.00 out of pocket first.

And all of this while paying a higher premium each year.

So I would expect with the anticipation of something like Massachusetts coming to pass, a lot of insurance agencies are raising their premiums now.

If you are forced to purchase health insurance then the regulatory agency in your state that oversees such issues should be setting limits and carefully monitoring what rates are being charged by the insurance companies. You can be assured if the CEOs and other Senior Managment of the insurance companies didn't have the VERY EXCESSIVE compensation plans for these people than our rates wouldn't be what they are.

JA-you should carry health insurance. Because if you get really sick and can't afford to pay for your care...all of us pay for it through jacked up insurance premiums.

But then again, you'll be the one hollering for your subsidized insurance when you actually need it (without having paid into the system in the first place). Hope it's there for you when you need it.

The ER might not be able to turn you away, but neurology clinics, cancer clinics, heart clinics, etc sure can, until you make a hefty payment towards your treatment. Good luck with that when you're sick.

Mustang:

"If you are forced to purchase health insurance then the regulatory agency in your state that oversees such issues should be setting limits and carefully monitoring what rates are being charged by the insurance companies."

You are correct, there are agencies in Massachusetts that regulate how high premiums can go. Yet we still have the highest premiums in the country. Also, all four of the major health insurance providers (Tufts, Fallon, Blue Cross and Harvard Pilgrim) posted major losses in their first quarters last year (I haven't seen their total year numbers yet). The losses were so large, they wanted to raise premiums even higher, but the state said no. So the insurance companies actually filed suit against the state.

Again, so in anticipation of this type of loss, I wouldn't be surprised that insurance agencies are raising premiums now because if what is happening in Massachusetts happens nationally, this plan will be a failure.

I had a 12.5% rise in premiums. I have an HSA with a high annual deductible. Having use both standard insurance policies with co-pays and low deductibles, I only ever exceeded the $1500 deductible one time in 8 years. When Obama care is fully installed I will have to take a $2500 deductible and experience a large jump in premiums. Based on what I pay now - it would be cheaper to pay the fine each year than pay the premium that policy will cost.

Hint: the higher deductible and/or co-pays you have, the less you donate to those who overuse the medical system.

You write:

"...it would be cheaper to pay the fine each year than pay the premium that policy will cost."

With the penalty based on 2.5% of income, that will be true for the great majority of people. And the law prohibits enforced collection of even that. In consequence, private medical insurance companies will be put out of business -- leaving the government to take up the slack. It's all a great ploy by clever people who understand nothing.

Just like the Romney Care system. People think they are getting something for nothing. THIS WILL DO NOTHING BUT BREED ABUSE IN THE SYSTEM ON A NATIONAL LEVEL!!!!!

SAY GOODBYE TO THIS COUNTRY BECAUSE THIS WILL BANKRUPT US ALL.

And what of the people who cannot afford to pay their premiums? Who will be paying higher premiums to cover them?

DB Akron:

"Based on what I pay now - it would be cheaper to pay the fine each year than pay the premium that policy will cost."

My boyfriend just went through the same thing. He was laid off from his job last May. He worked at the same place I do, so he had the same crappy insurance that I have now. So his COBRA premium was through the roof, and it just wasn't worth it to pay that much money for crappy insurance where he would have to pay out of pocket for the $1,500.00 deductible anyway.

So he went without. He just started his new job a month ago, and has a much better insurance plan now. He didn't go to the doctor or the hospital in the five months he was without coverage. But he still has to pay the $750 fine to the state for not having insurance for the whole year.

But that's cheaper than what he would have had to pay in premiums in those five months.

The program can fund itself. But it took so many years to get it passed, that now it will take too much longer for it to pay for itself.

This program cannot pay for itself. All of the countries that have tried this pie in the sky approach are drifting into so much debt they cannot sustain their programs without taxing their citizens at hugh levels....now these countries are turning back the clock and changing their programs while America is walking straight over the cliff.

Policywhiz....IF you check your facts, you will see that the other countries that have this type of insurance has a lot healthier population than the US. It wasn't the health care that put them in debt, it's the fiscal irresponsibility of ALL the leaders, be it US, UK, Germany, Greece where ever. That is where the blame lays and needs to be taken up by the people to straighten out their own houses. All I hope for is for EVERYONE to stop being so damned greedy, and things will right itself. GREED is the driving factor here people.

As far as I'm concerned their isn't a health insurance company senior executive that is WORTH ANYTHING. They are simply leaches on an industry that takes advantage of people. Again the compensation plans setup by the board of directors and the "Compensation Committees" for CEOs and Senior Management are UNACCEPTABLY EXCESSIVE. POINT BLANK, the majority of CEO's and their team of executive senior managements ARE OVER COMPENSATED and EXCESSIVE!!!

Think about it mustang - there are people out there that think you aren't worth the money you get paid either. Value and worth are two very relative concepts. To someone - those executives are worth that much money - not that I think they are either.

The effect of this can happen because the most economical plan was not adopted.

You state the obvious.... to those who refuse to see it. Would rather search for Obama's Waterloo than help the nation and its people....

You state the 'bottom line' of the subject Jersey Bob.

Nooo... Obama was making all kinds of changes prior to the health care bill that could have just as easily been presented as his "Waterloo"... The reason the health care reform was a big deal was because people finally had enough of him trying to ram laws down American's throats without much discussion when there was still a huge percentage that didnt want it. The more he tried to force it, the more backlash he got. After all, he's not our parent, he's a president- he works for us.

you mean the bill that was written by executives from WellPoint?

http://fdlaction.firedoglake.com/2010/03/29/baucus-thanks-wellpoint-vp-liz-fowler-for-writing-health-care-bill/

The Democrats snowed everyone on this bill.

Leave my money alone, you handout taking libs. Here's how you insure yourself: Get a job Go Online and get insured. Gov't loving fools - We crushed you once -2012 we'll do it again

Don't ask me to insure your family. Do it on your own

I love how the republicans are repeatedly blamed for the lack of a public option yet there were enough democrats to pass the bill without republican support- the public option is gone because there wasn't enough DEMOCRATS supporting it to pass the legislation.

Steve 1911054 - Maybe you should take some of your medical insurance money and pay for an English class where you could learn to spell! (or just use spell check????)

Exactly, why do you think the Republicans are fighting so hard "IN OUR BEST INTEREST" to repeal it. It's to satisfy the Health Insurance Companies and their Senior Management. THEY ARE COMPLETELY WORTHLESS!!!

John M: what if you are unable to purchase health insurance on the "free market" and not for lack of trying. Then what?

John M--how many of your grandmas and grandpas are driving around right now on the Hoverounds paid for by ME??? I don't want to pay for your backwoods, hillbilly relatives that can't pay for their own stuff but scream "hands off my Medicare!"

John M alot of people would do that if there were jobs but CAPITALISM has sent jobs overseas due to higher profits, so your arguement is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.

Oh by the way john M talking about your " Crushing " since thats all you people know on the right is violence, Explain to me how owning ONLY the House is crushing when the dems own the senate and the presidincy PLEASE DO EXPLAIN IF YOU DARE !!!!

hahahahahahahaha u guys just make me laugh and laugh at your hatefulness and stupidity I guess thats what jesus would do CRUSH PEOPLE

Steve, with the Mess of Medicare, and Medicaid and the VA I do NOT want the Feds running my healthcare. WHen they get these other programs straightened out, THEN we can discuss National health. Not until thanks.

AND...When Obama and the people declaring what insurance I SHOULD Have are covered under that same plan, I'll be all for it.

Janine: "Government run healthcare" was voted the biggest political lie of 2010 by ersponders to Polifact.com http://politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2010/dec/16/lie-year-readers-poll-results/

Obamacare does NOT mandate what insurance you can have!!! You can still keep your present plan OR change it!

The last 3 republican presidents oversaw the run up of most of out national debt as of the end of Bush's last budget--- THAT is why SS, medicare and medicaid cant be addressed. The created this budget crisis DELIBERATELY so they can eventually privatize those services and the bankers and Wall ST would make money from that HUGE amount of money!

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/10054/1037783-109.stm

Dont you EVER read independent sources?????? You're being lied to on a consistent basis. Good grief: WAKE UP!!

Mustang69,

You are just jealous of the hard working ceo's, I'm sure you wouldn't mind if the feds took 40% or 50% of what they earn and spent it on you. Oh! That's right they do that now, but I guess you want 60% to 70%.

And you have insurance companies to thank for the fractured services at the hospital. Used to be you'd go to the hospital and come out with one bill for the services rendered. When I ended up in the hospital for an emergency gall bladder divorce last year I had no less than 10 separate providers billing me and my insurance company for their services. Every single one of those providers works out of the same building I resided in for 4 days but every single one of them pays a staff of administrators to process the claims and the insurance company pays how many people in their organization to receive the claims, review and determine whether to send payment or deny, how much is due based on their individually contracted rates with that provider, etc. Those expenses all add up to higher premiums and to higher costs period.

Very true, the health insurance companies are "LICENSED CROOKS" and nothing more. Just think of how many people they have to employee to process all that paperwork.

We're all creatures of habit, we think the way things are now are the way they'll always be. Life and health is one of those things. Many of us think if we haven't been sick in years then we won't be getting sick any time soon. If we've never had any serious ailments, we won't have any serious health problems in the future. And if we've only visited the doctor twice in the last decade, we'll hardly have need to go see him again more than a couple times in the next decade.

However, insurance is for the unknown. Pay a bit now and some day you may avoid having to pay a LOT all at once. Those of us who are insured are paying increasing costs each year in part because the uninsureds' "healthcare" is often by way of the ER - and those visits cost a fortune compared to a traditional doctor visit. The hospitals often go uncompensated for these visits because those without insurance are also those who cannot afford to pay the hospital bill. It's a vicious cycle, and I'm glad to see some legislation attempting to tackle it.

What world are you living in? Your premiums are based on the usage even when you are in a group plan. One year one of my employees had colon cancer and received treatment for it. Thank God they are doing well now.

However my Group rate went up 67% that year. Over a period of 12 years my company insurance rates went up over 500% and that was with reducing the benefits every year. I hated when March would come around because that was the month I had to go through all the options of what to do with Healthcare for my employees and giving them the bad news regarding the reduced benefits.

Frank is right...you are a walking, talking loss ratio and a actuarial statistic ONLY to a insurance company.

You ass. Try being self-employed and over-qualified. No one will hire you, and no one is offering health care benefits anymore. I have to ration my paycheck out to pay lump sump taxes and have a scary time ensuring my books are balanced, getting enough income rolling in, and now I'm to be mandated to pay another "tax" or be fined to high heaven if I choose not to?

The issue isn't COVERAGE, it's the COST OF HEALTH CARE.

BRING DOWN THE UNCONTROLLED, SKYROCKETED (Arbitrarily so) COSTS, and I can afford reasonable premiums as well as opt to pay out of pocket, like I currently do for dental practive cleanings and checkups twice a year.

Tell me, which generation stuck its' fingers into the Social Security till to pay for other non-social security projects? That right, you a**holes now using SS and Medicare/caid or the crusty baby boomers soon to suck the last life out of what's left.

Superlogi

I would say that you are right except for one pesky little FACT government starts at the house and senate level from 94-07 the Republicans ran the government.. These problems have been going on for too long now and the REPUBLICANS never even tried to address the problems at all.... WHY BECAUSE THE REPUBLICANS WANT THESE PROGRAMS TO FAIL SO THEY CAN PRIVITIZE THE WHOLE INDUSTRY....

Now we have a democratic lead government who sees the problems and is trying to do SOMETHING, ANYTHING that they think would help, well Ill tell ya, i thought thats what government is for to make sure that its CITIZENS are protected from all enemies foreign and domestic and if you think that these insurance companies are not our enemies then look at your bills every month and year rising and rising for what where is this money going and who is getting it... You can not tell me that money is going to cost when we have CEO and board members recieving record amounts of bonuses and profit at least acknowledge reality.... Capitalism in the HEALTH CARE INDUSTRY IS THE NUMBER ONE CAUSE OF ALL THESE PROBLEMS THE GREED IS JUST TO MUCH!!!!!!!!!!

How about later when you get laid off and can not afford insurance or cobra then you find out that you have a tumor but guess what the new better health care will still not let you get insurance because it is pre-existing I can tell you they said Americans can now buy pre-existing insurance but it is wellness insurance it will not cover the tumor because it is pre-existing. It sucks and so does this health care bill.

If you havent noticed, People that cant afford health care are provided less than third world services but someone who has money can come here from any country ( YEMEN, AFRICA, DUBAI, IRAN, NORTH KOREA) and recieve the BEST care in the WORLD that sounds pretty AMERICAN to me, oh you pay taxes and have a job,home and family whats that you cant afford it oh well your out of luck!!!!! that sounds pretty "AMERICAN" to me, sheww you guys need to really see the light

THIS COUNTRY WAS SET UP BY THE PEOPLE AND FOR THE PEOPLE WELL THE TOP 2% IS NOT THE PEOPLE THE OTHER 98% OF US ARE, HOW ABOUT WE HELP THOSE PEOPLE OUT INSTEAD OF TRYING TO SHOVE HUGE AMOUNTS OF TAX CUTS FOR THE 2% down our throats using lines that only play to the weak minded and the desperate like we want tax cuts " for all" give me a break. We could use those tax dollars on things that matter not just let it pile up in some trust fund that helps the country out in no way shape or form.

All the capital (MONEY) in the country is held up at the top, there is not enough to go around for the rest of the 98% of us, Everyone is fighting for the SAME dollar...How about we force these companies to create jobs here in AMERICA and make it illegal to send jobs overseas in such desperate economic times, and ill tell ya what I bet we wouldnt even be having this discussion because alot more people would be able to buy their own insurance but that will never happen esp if we are ran by republicans... HOW ABOUT A LITTLE BIT OF PATRIOTISM..... COUNTRY FIRST

B Power:

http://www.snopes.com/business/taxes/howtaxes.asp

Read this about how tax credits work before ranting about how the tax credits are for the wealthy. Yes, the wealthy get a bigger tax break when it comes to these things because they pay more in taxes every year than you or I pay.

It will not benefit you. Those of us who work a job and pay big dollars to insure our families won't. Once again, we are the ones in the middle. Before implementing such sweeping changes ("reform") the misuse of Medicaid needed to be fixed. Widespread misuse has been costing all of us middle-class workers unbelievable amounts of money over the years. Generation after generation have become very savvy on how to work this system. Work in a hospital, or best yet, in an Emergency Room for any amount of time and you won't believe the ways that this system works for those who know how to do it. It may have been worth the money to hire more people to fix that first before we start another potential mess.

msmojo, obamacare is not meant to help you, you work. It is meant to help those unproductive citizens obtain more of your money, while you remain dumb enough to the fact that it is just an increase in welfare.

Thanks Dasvet for your insight. I never said that it was an increase in welfare. I was saying that if that system worked better, perhaps this sweeping reform might not be needed. Not sure what you do for a living, but if you do work in healthcare...I'm not sure how you have missed the millions who not only work, but own businesses and are are medicaid. It's not just people who really need it who are receiving, I wish those who need it the most were all getting it! Been in healthcare for almost 30 years and over the years have seen this problem grow. This is what I have seen in regards to this and I will admit that I as well as many others have not read the complete 4000 page document. Maybe you have been able to get through those 4000 pages, great! Wish those who voted on it had, but most admitted that they did not, that's a shame.

I do work and am not "looking" for help. I was stating one of the many reasons that healthcare in general is in bad shape in response to someone asking if the new healthcare would help her...and my response is NO.

Fine Rick, now tell me, what would YOU do? YOU want people to be without something so that the cost escalate even more ? YOU want people to converge on the ER because theuy don't have insurance and need medical attention for a cold? YOU want to increase the cost for EVERYONE by INACTION, that is no plan, that is a disaster waiting to kill YOU or some other innocent person that paid their insurance premimums and tried to get help but the ER was full and had to be turned away. Your response is very typical of the Repugnetcan Slip Shod Party.

I beg to differ. The GOP and their insurance company profiteering lobbyists haven't gotten the message.

If the GOP had let the public option go through, we would've gotten the health care plan that most people wanted.

Dave, it wasn't the GOP that stopped the public option, not enough democrats wanted it. If every democrat had voted for it, they would have had enough votes, they didn't.

I agree. After the Republicans waste our money trying to destroy everything Obama has done we'll be in worse shape than ever. Republicans = big oil, Wall Street, taxes for the rich we can't afford. Wise up.

And what has Obama done? Increased the debt by trillions, passed an HCR that is a 2400 page abortion, creating MORE government committees, panels and oversight, tried to force the so-called DREAM legislation through, and finally AGREED with the GOP on retaining tax cuts for everyone.

And was awarded a completely bogus Nobel Prize for....what?

Your right, it's gonna take us years to recover from this bumbling, arse-kissing Obama administration.

Oh, and let's not forget appeasing N .Korea and Iran, and letting a corrupt Mexican president scold the U.S. I guess he didn't want to lose all the money illegals send home.

Back on post, I am permanently disabled, and collecting on the Disability Insurance that I paid into for 40+ years. I also pay for Medicare, but never use it. Why? My wife has average insurance from her work, and we pay some out of pocket. The least I could do is repay some of what I receive, since I believe in paying my way if humanly possible. Maybe someone who needs it is getting the money I don't. I like to think so.

i don't know Dave...people may basically be good at heart but they're also uninformed and believe what the liberal media tells them...the odds (i Believe) are long that this gets over-turned......as a matter of fact can you name one piece of legislation that has been over-turned??????....ever????

I think you must be deaf or watch Fox news, so you're out of touch with reality. Most people wanted the public option before the Republi-cons killed that with their insurance company-backed hissy fits.

Dave just because i disagree with your viewpoint i MUST be a Republ.......SURPRIZE...i'm NOT

Dave,

Wake up. Who do you think is the real death panel? The insurance companies my friend. They can drop anybody they want if they get sick. I suppose you think rates would magically go down if we did away with Obama care.

why don't you get fired from your job and live off your fellow American's dime like so many others?????

My mama raised a fool... I am self employed.

L O L....

she also raised someone with personal pride!!!!!

she and you are to be commended as you are the engine that drives this country

"Will Lower Costs"

when someone tells me that i quit conversing with them for i know i have met a true Kool-ade drinker

So Earle, it's not enough to liken Obama to Hitler, it's not enough to believe Obama was born someplace other than Hawaii, it's not enough to call him the anti-Christ, no, for your, he's also "illegitimate." What facts do you have that proves that or, as usual, facts ought not to matter before making scurrilous remarks. You're vulgarity and vapidity are showing, Earle.

Road to Serfdom,

So, do you believe that if nothing is done the insurance companies will some how lower their rates or do you believe the the Republicans will make it all better? Talk about a kool aid drinker. You're a koolaholic buddy.

Everyone knows the insurance companies have and will raise their rates whenever the hell they feel like it. The Repubs haven't had the balls to do anything about it ever. It's about time. It's people like you thinking nothing needs to happen. Get real.

earle=birther

yes, they are still out there.

doctor .....maybe you're good at your practice but you fail miserably at economics

RoadtoSerfdom - My family doctor of the past 10 years disagrees with you, says it's a Nightmare. I think I'll trust my Doctor over you any day... ~(:>)

I hope you are a better doctor than you are a business man or economist.

This law will increase the cost of health care both in the aggregate and in the particular (for people who had insurance).

It will drive up the health care spending by the government meaning either: a) higher taxes, b) rationed services, or c) both.

Not only will the average person pay more for their existing insurance they will also pay higher taxes to cover the insurance subsidies of others.

As a doctor you will have government bureaucrats AND insurance adjusters dictating your practice of medicine.

This abomination will also serve to stifle experimentation and research for new methods of health care... the emphasis will shift from striving for a positive medical outcome for the patient to a cost thrifting process for the regulators.

Rather than having hundreds of insurance companies offering a wide variety of insurance packages, that meet individual needs and competitive prices, we'll have a single defined benefit package at dictated rates.

Quality and availability will suffer and people will needlessly suffer and die.

Road to Serfdom,

If you think you know ANYTHING about economics you would certainly know that there are no economic absolutes only competing theories.

To claim your knowledge of economics has determined that the changes to the health care system will ABSOLUTELY fail miserably, only demonstrates your own ignorance.

I am not convinced either way. Lets check back in 10 years, shall we?

Sorry, meant to say Van Man not Road to Serfdom - My family doctor of the past 10 years disagrees with you, says it's a Nightmare. I think I'll trust my Doctor over you any day... ~(:>)

Chitown

Earle

Please fill in the blank.....Socialised healthcare works great in__________

The GREATEST healthcare provided anywhere in the world is in the USA...thank the Sweet Lord you live here to benefit from it!!!

Road to Serfdom -

Where did you get that number from? France has the best healthcare in the world. The US is all the way back at #37. We're #1 at spending money on healthcare if you want something to brag about.

We spend the most because we try to deny death. We spend it all on the last few months of our lives when we try and believe there is a cure for everything. By the way, there is something called Ethic Committees in the medical system. There is no such thing as DEATH Panels - that is stupid Sarah Palin @!$%# trying to put you in an uproar so that you will pay her big bucks to come and speak to you.

Don't be stupid. Under the new law people nearing the end of their lives will not be able to get care to extend their lives. I hope this happens to that idiot in the white house.

This just kills me. Let's say Obama care did not happen. What are you people saying? The insurance companies would get in line and quit screwing the hell out of us? They would police themselves or better yet, the Repubs would take care of the predatory insurance companies? What the hell? Something needed to be done. Why haven't the Republicans ever tried to do anything? Why is that? The party of "NO" and defenders of WAll Street, Big Oil.

Why???

whats wrong with profit????

...profit is NOT a dirty word

Serf, judging by some of your posts on this board today, I would say YOU are the biggest koolade drinker at the table! Guzzle guzzle!

Food is a more urgent necessity. Should the government run all grocery stores and restaurants? Should the government decide what you can and cannot eat?

Shelter is a more urgent necessity than health care. Should the government decide where you can live and pay for it? Should the government decide how many square feet of living space you are entitled to?

If, that is what you want, then move to North Korea.

Martha,

If 20 percent of the people had no access to food and the another 10 percent had to mortgage their house to pay for it, then yes I do believe the general populace would vote for the government to step in and do something about it.

FYI. There are many government regulations to prevent price gouging as well as over production in the farming industry.

Yeah we already have food stamps and section 8 housing... like we have Medicaid.

If, you are destitute, the government provides food, housing and medical care. Maybe not gourmet food, penthouse living or the Mayo clinic but they do provide the basics.

ObamaCare is a solution in search of a problem. It is what happens when liberals are given unfettered authority… the presidency, 60 votes in the Senate and a large majority in the House.

That's right, no one should profit from illness. I am for a single payor system and so was George W. Bush. Google - Article 31 of the Iraqi Constitution that W. signed off on and agreed to, or shall I say Cheney signed off on. It was good for the Iraqi's. Oh, and while you are reading, read Article 30. I say, as a woman, I could use that!

It's all a big lie from the GOP. They know it would be better, but they get money from those guys, so they have to protect their interests, not ours. They really don't give a flying f--- how we feel as Americans, no matter what their letters/emails say. If your not hanging your bank account in their name and they can draw endlessly from that account, they don't give a @!$%# about you or your vote. It's all about the lobbyist and what the lobbyist does to you. How the lobbyist impacts you. So the insurance lobby gets you all mad and panties in a wod and gets YOU to call Congress. Your Senator or Rep. doesn't encourage you to call them. The lobbyist is the big evil one. And they don't care what we care about. They care about who they represent and that's the insurance industry. They get paid HUGE money to put out mis-messages and bull caca to us.

Obama was trying to do a good thing. The lobbyist stepped in and screwed it all up because what the GOP, I mean lobbyist, wanted messed up the bill. They can threaten all they want, but it'll lose it's steam because people like me find a way to support Moveon.org, CREDO, Progressives, Slate, etc.

Yeah, Becca, because Moveon.org, CREDO, Progressives, Slate, etc. don't lobby do they? Hypocrite.

Martha...great pt. about food and shelter being MORE imposrtant

Becca you also have a great pt. about George Bush....but c'mon

whats the difference between Bush and Obama?

a tan

their policies are so similar as becca alludes to

I would be all for a public option on the following conditions:

1) An opt-out provision. If I NEVER want government provided medical services, including medicaid/medicare, that should be a valid choice. If people don't want government involvement in their health decisions, than an option MUST exist to exclude individuals that don't want it. This is a must. This is a permanent exclusion once taken and can't be changed for any reason.

2)Only those people who don't opt-out of the public option will be taxed to cover its expenses. At no time shall funds from the general treasury be used to fund the public option and no taxes shall ever be collected in any form from people who have opted out. This means that any revenue shortfalls in the public option will have to be filled by increasing taxes on those who utilize the public option.

This is a fair and reasonable compromise. Include these two provisions and you would have no problem getting the public option passed.

What is it about the word OPTION you don't understand? It's nothing more than one additional choice for consumers. Nobody's forced to utilize a Public Option.

Tell doctors they can no longer make a profit and they'll tell you to take 12 yrs of school, several more years as an intern and a huge student loan debt and shove it up your @ss.

Martha made an awful point about shelter and food because without health non of that is relavant.

HELATH IS PARAMOUNT