I've solved the abortion issue. Rather than being simply either pro-choice or pro-life....how about if we all become pro-close-you-legs! This gives the woman and the man the choice living the life that Christ wants us to and it respects life just as He had. Read your Bible people as it talks, quite extensively I might add, on sexual immorality.

So, Jerry, you expect MARRIED people to abstain from sex as well?

So how's that abstinence only thing working for ya, Jerry? Married people also have unintended pregnancies...wouldn't be much of a marriage if people quit having sex; why have a marriage at all?

OK Jerry, then put your wenise away.

no jerry has stated outwardly, that we MUST all be jesus nuts. if we do not believe in this figment of his imagination we have already failed.

Agreed bspurloc.

Indeed. Total religio-whackjob fail, btw. Didn't mention praying for us godless heathens once, or condemn the "holocaust of the unborn," or warn us about the firey pit.

But, then again, he did command us all to live in his little fantasy world, where sex is an enjoyable but undesirable act, except maybe twice in a lifetime. And we must worship his imaginary sky-daddy. And read his little book, and follow it, even the stuff that contradicts the other stuff.

Not a total fail, I suppose. Must be one of those compassionate conservatives I keep hearing about.

I know Im going to get crucified on this one (no pun intended), but if people knew how many similar stories of a savior pre christian there were, they might be alarmed.

Sorry, I do not mean to offend anyone. If you believe in Christianity, then I think that is great. Not my intention to hurt anyone. My bad.

It`s always interesting that the overwhelming majority of those posting to these boards are anti-choice and are men. When men begin to carry the embryos and fetuses then they can make their choice. Other than in movies it really hasn`t happened. But as soon as they start experimenting with it then I expect all you guys to be first in line. Otherwise, abortion is as old as humans. I am sure in those areas today where states haver restricted in one way or another that backroom shops have already been set up. As long as it is women that get pregnant than it is a womans choice whether she stays pregnant.

And men.... you can completely control the rate of abortions in America. Keep it in your pants. If you don`t have sex then women won`t get pregnant. Too many kids for you as a couple to afford then stop having sex even when married. Then the choice to or not to abort doesn`t have to be made. Women are not the only ones to be able to say No.

Otherwise, the report does not break out the increases by age group but I would be interested if this growth was across all age groups or just some to drive the increase in numbers. Is it due to younger girls who do not practice birth control (through lack of education in the schools the last ten years)?

Amen sister friend! haha

Abstinence is a joke. Tell a group of hormone charge teens the best thing is to abstain...don't equip them with knowledge to protect themselves from disease and unintended pregnancy. Thats a great plan, ignorance solves everything.

I can tell you when I was a teen my church and my parents didn't want us having sex...but we did anyway. That's what happens - I'm glad I was raised when protection and contraception was taught in class rooms still....or boy would I be in a pickle today.

And yes, the story of the savior and second coming are all old stories - it is argued that Christianity borrowed their version from a long told story dating back to the Sumerian culture who also experienced the "son of god" being born with a second coming predicted as well. Same story has been repeated by various cultures throughout time - most of them existing before Christianity.

Your correct on all accounts. And interestingly the first story of a savior from Sumarian culture was a woman, who came back three days later from the dead.

When my parents were young, my father volitionally restrained his sex drive to spare my mother, who had too many babies in too few years. I am in my sixties, to give you a time frame. Yes, it can happen in marriage, that a man is required to make this sacrifice for his wife. Of course, it takes a man of moral charachter.

Absolutely. Great post and great point.

First, we could prevent a lot of abortions by promoting only homosexual sex premarriage, and heterosexual sex only after marriage. This solves a lot of problems, including hormone charged teens getting pregnant.

Second, to Kelcy, women have all the choice. They can choose whether or not to have sex, same as men. They can choose whether or not to use protection, same as men. They can choose whether or not to carry the child to term, same as..., hmmm, nope, men don't have that choice. Women can choose to go to court to force a man to pay child support, same as a man with custody of his children. A woman can choose to have a child out of wedlock and then file court papers to have a man pay if he doesn't want to pay. Men can't. Men can choose to have a woman abort a child he conceived? No, he cannot. As can be seen, women have far more choices than men.

Jerry, the Bible does talk, as you say "quite extensively I might add, on sexual immorality."

Don't forget daughters getting their father drunk so he can impregnate them to carry on the family. Don't forget that it's OK for the king to send a dude to front lines so he can have his wife. Don't forget that it's OK to offer your daughters for sexual favors to protect the rest of the house or guests.

Oh dear Tony, if it were that simple to get child support, you would not have millions on welfare. The average wait time to get a penny in Florida is two to three years, and even then, its not regular. They can pay then not pay then pay a little then not pay againg for a year; hence the wonderful laws on child support. Until all men pay regular child support, get off your high horse.

Tony, while many people managed to be sensitive on this issue (Reaves posts are an example) you did not. It is fine if you don't believe in the Bible, but don't misquote it saying this is what all Christians believe. As for the 3 stories you gave from the Bible - you twisted the storied of each. God was not pleased with David and Bathsheba- thus he was punished, and the 'favors' were to save angels. Also all of your examples are from the Old Testament, which is not nearly as studied as the New.

So have your opinions, don't believe that is fine and I respect that, and everyone else's choice to pick whatever they want to buy into, but please don't twist the stories to give you an edge.

Taylor -

But twisting the stories is a time-honored christian tradition. So we can't objectively analyze your holy book, we have to go by your analysis only?

Fine, then, find me 2 analyses of the bible that agree with each other.

Taylor,

Why is it OK for many Christians to twist the Bible to their thoughts, but only if it does not screw with your version? Why is my review of the Old Testament wrong but yours is not?

Christians constantly bash homosexuals, but his is a time honored bash from the Old Testament. As is stoning witches (by the way, if we should follow the Bible, where are all the stonings? In Muslim lands, mostly. They are following the Bible more than you are,)

Where is the Christian charity? Why are Christians (especially Christian Republicans) trying to reduce taxes when they should be "giving unto Ceasar what is Ceasars?" (Let's not forget about the Camel getting through the eye of the needle before a rich person gets into Heaven)

Where is "Love thy neighbor as thyself?" I don't believe it said "Love thy neighbor as thyself, but only if thy neighbor believes the same way as you, and pretty much acts like you and worships like you and eats like you..."

Where is the anology of the Good Samaritan? Jesus made it abundantly clear that the person who does good is far better than the most pius religious fanatic, even if the Samaritan believes different from you and doesn't even worship your God. (Go Buddhists!)

Where is turn the other cheek? I don't think Jesus said to preemptively strike Iraq because they might become a threat. Where is forgiveness? Quit blowing up abortion clinics and quit persecuting women that have had abortions. Heck, Jesus was criticized for dining with prostitutes and sinners. Do you?

Jesus told people to lead by example, not by chastising them. Jesus told people to lead by helping others, not by excluding them.

Reaves, you totally missed the point. Women have more choices than men. Period. And it is especially true when it comes to reproduction.

Try to get government help as a single parent woman and as a singe parent dad. See who gets thrown out of the system.

Try to get a job, as a woman, that understands you have to schedule your work around your kids. Then try it as man. Businesses are much more accomodating to single women than they are to single men. Not that all women have it easy in this regard, but they have it a lot easier than men in this situation.

Atlas Shrugging #4.3 ''Hitler's had a law passed stating that Jews were not humans- it made possible for them to rationalize their actions to the Jews. The US passes a law that states the fetus is not life'' This analogy is right on target! Abortion is genocide made legal!!

I have one word for pro-lifers: ADOPT. Put your money where your mouth i$ and ADOPT.

I find crusades thoroughly disgusting, and I have to believe if we lived in a world where we actually cared for one another, there would never ever have been a need for crusades. Unfortunately the care of the priests and monks for others is purely limited to their followers.

People are trying to adopt.

Then don't have an abortion. Your choice.

abortion is murder....a life is not defined by its dependency on another or its state of development.. using terms to describe its developmental stages does not negate the fact that its a life. ei: embryo, fetus infant, toddler, pre-adolescence, adolescent, pre-pubescent, pubescent, post pubescent, mature adult, etc ....a embryos life is valued not just by its currant stage of development but by its potential... the potential to be a contributing adult capable of love and compassion.....but people are selfish and greedy and far to sexually self absobed, to care about anything else but thier greedy demented selves....if it does not occur to you that unprotected sex is not without consequences then you are a retard..

you are the disgusting one suggesting that every fertilised egg must come to full term

you are the disgusting one suggesting that every fertilised egg must come to full term

Then stop having irresponsible sex, sweety. Btw, I don't go and protest abortions, because that's a personal choice. HOWEVER, it's disgusting and those who want to practice it have their own personal misery that will consume them. The pro-lifers unfortunately only care about the unborn children, but don't give a crap about them after they're born. You abortion extremists and pro-life extremists deserve each other.

I find crusades thoroughly disgusting

Well goody goody for you. But an abortion is okay, right? Of course. So don't act like you're above participating in crusades.

''ok so im gay.'' agree with your post.

Your viewpoint is extremely narrow and it is from the holier than thou position.

Step down, way down to Earth, and see what is really happening.

Again behind every woman on welfare with six kids, is six men who also participated and who are not paying child support. Sexist.

Hitler's had a law passed stating that Jews were not humans- it made possible for them to rationalize their actions to the Jews. The US passes a law that states the fetus is not life; yet without it a child cannot be birthed, this is more than a question of "choice". What a piece of work is man...........

Have there been benefits such as lower crime due to abortion, sure... but who will ever know what benefit could have been gained if the fetus was allowed to live, why is this not a consideration?

Can't agree with that logic (and not only because of your moniker).

Not all religions, Judiasm included, teach abortion is a sin. Rationalization has nothing to do with this. Reality has everything to do with this. Thankfully, we do not live in a country that allows you to impose your rationalization (any longer) on others.

Reaves...

I agree...and if a "mother" who lives off the state wants benefits provided for that child, then she should have to provide the name of the "father" ( ie: sperm donor ) in turn.

But that won't happen in "no fault" America...where the only folks held responsible for their actions seem to be taxpayers held responsible for paying the bills.

I agree. In Florida, that is the case. A woman must identify the father if she wants any help. And, if she is on welfare, she must work 40 hours at the workforce/unemployment sector a week.

Now that makes sense....does the state use the "dad" info for anything useful ???

"Human beings" are self-protective...if a man knew he'd be legally forced to pay for siring a baby, there'd be a bit fewer babies around. Of course that would never have any affect on the bottom layer of idiots in this country.

40 hours per week ???

I agree wholeheartedly! I, for one, am sick and tired of my hard-earned paychecks going to support lazy people that pop kids out like popcorn. I don't care who they are- men, women, white, black, or purple! It's not an issue of gender or race- it's an issue of responsibility!

I can picture all the old men who got up in arms over this article and the comments posted here, passing judgment while sitting behind their computers, thinking they're going to tell us heathens what Jesus says we females should do about unplanned pregnancy and sexual morality. I have never personally known someone to be drawn to religious faith by being judged and chastised, perhaps the fanatics should keep that in mind when they're sharing their viewpoint. However, when it comes to legal abortion rights in the US, the life-begins-at-conception viewpoint of the religious right is completely irrelevant. That is the bottom line. If a young couple (and yes, a couple, not just the woman) makes a mistake and they choose to terminate a pregnancy, it's their right to do so, and I'm thankful for that. If that means that there are fewer kids born into unhealthy, broken relationships, fewer kids living in poverty or suffering from abuse, that is a good thing for our society as a whole. If you have strong feelings against abortion, then don't get one. If that's not enough for you and you feel you must protest or pass judgment on those who make a different choice, then take a verse from your own bible, please -

“Judge not, that you be not judged. For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and with the measure you use it will be measured to you. Why do you see the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye?"

No. They use suicide bombers to blow them up in public places. Idiot.

Dear Icedini;

Your information is, evidently, as poor as your powers of comprehension; yes, some are suicide bombers but not many and at least they were permited to reach the age where they could make a decison as to their very short career path; an aborted human being has no such choice granted him or her.

The real telling of this tale happens to be the facts that indicate (via WHO and other population monitoring organizations) who has the fastest growing populations in the world and, wouldn't you know it, those figures all come out of Muslim countries. So my dear friend you may be able to indulge your fantasies for a little while yet but sooner or later you or your decendants will be living under the sway of Islam. In this regard you might want to check-out Mark Steyn's published work on this he is at least partially on target.

In the US there is little comfort to be had in the figures that purportedly indicate that there is a replacement population being put into place as that is only true if you factor in the lop-sided numbers of live births coming from the Hispanic quarter; Anglo-Saxon Americans are merrily offing themselves at pretty much the same rate as the Europeans are and, in case you didn't know, those same Europeans are in a panic over their declining population that is being swamped by, guess what, live births coming from the Muslim populations.

This is why I am expanding into the new & used Burqa sales business as I am certain to make money in that venture in the not too distant future.

My dear Icedini you can now thoroughly enjoy your feminist-inspired fantasyland USA for a couple of years yet and then you too will be wearing a burqua (and I will be only too happy to sell you the latest models at a reasonable price [LoL]). Of course, the delicious irony here is that it is feminist ideology that is making this all possible. Enjoy your mental and moral slumber while you still can (LoL)!

Counter, so your solution for the threat of islam is to out breed them?

Counter is looking for a venture capitalist opportunity is burquas, so he/she is going to defend wearing them.

How is "feminist ideology" making all this possible? What's your answer, keep em down, barefoot, pregnant on the farm...guess you will sell lots of burquas to women of all stripes now...

Counter, so your solution for the threat of islam is to out breed them?

No kidding. One of the main reasons those places are cesspools is because they overbreed and don't have the resources to support their populations resulting in abject poverty for millions. One only need to look at a graph of the world population over the last century to realize if we continue on the current trend we're all screwed.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/77/World-Population-1800-2100.png

Do we really want to have 10 billion people on this planet by 2050? I certainly don't.

Do you realize any wiki site is not a valid resource?

I'm not writing a research paper, I'm giving you a visual aid on a blog so you can see the world population over time. It's well established information that can be confirmed easily. Are you really trying to contend that the graph doesn't show the population accurately over the last century? You can also easily find that it draws its information from a 2004 UN population report and the US Census Bureau, which are both highly reputable sources.

The average family in the world has about 3 children. So the average person produces 1.5 people. It's simple exponential growth. Thankfully places like Japan and China have begun to reverse the trend, but the world population continues to skyrocket.

dont forget to do the same for every single person the christian taliban killed in their crusades. south america north america central america, all the surrounding islands, australia..... countless humans around the mediterranean

Andrew is right on the money folks. I would like to add. Resources decline as demand (population) increases. Making life harder and harder for each generation.

New Techs are not keeping up.

icedini, do you think they have recruited 60,000,000 suicide bombers?

Andrew...

"Malthusian Prophecy" comes home to roost ! I too believe that the population will overtake the planet's ability to sustain that population...there is certainly a tipping point and if one looks at worldwide population growth over the past thirty years, the numbers are frightening.

At some point in time...the "have" countries will not be able to sustain the "have not" countries, who don't seem to be able to figure out how to cultivate anything other than more babies and violence against each other.

I'm a fairly young guy. Since I was born in the early '80's there have been an additional 1.5 billion people born. That's just phenomenal to me. It took us 1880 years to create the first 1.5 billion human population, and now we can add that many people in under 30 years. Our population has grown by over 5 billion in under a century, and all the while the standard of living and resources required for each person continues to go up. We need to figure out how to live sustainably with the population we have before we exponentially grow the population any more.

"Slaughtered infant?"

At the stages where abortion is legal, the embryo is a group of cells, not an infant.

Please do not refer to China's solution in a positive way. There are many women who are forced to have abortions at 7 months, I do not care what side you tend to lean, that is horrible. A member of my family lives there and she has told me that in certain villages if you are found to have more than one child, then the government will arrest your family until you agree to sterlization. Plus the boys outweigh the girls in population by millions!

CC, you're a group of cells. Does that make you less human?

I don't think the article gave demographics for what ethnic group was having the abortions.

I have not seen any new data to support your claim that the U.S. is exceeding Africa in births. I doubt all the data has been compiled since the end of the year.

Or was this a dig on anchor babies?

Another " Conservative " Myth. Just more right wing bigotry.

Free birth control?? I think you are living in a parallel universe. Just because someone gave some baskets of condoms away doesn't mean "free birth control". Re-read the article. See the link, as always, between economics and abortion.

"Logic" would state that "giving away free baskets of condoms" does equate to "free birth control".

I'm pretty sure that if we taught sex education and not abstinence only, then a lot of teens would not get pregnant. You can't expect them not to if you don't educate them, make it difficult to access birth control= unplanned pregnancy. I think it is irresponsible for anyone to expect a women to give birth if she is unprepared. It's easy to say, just have it and give it up..but no one takes into consideration that the woman's life is valuable and she should not be forced to do anything she doesn't want to do...including going thru a pregnancy and giving birth. And it's not just about "keeping your legs closed"...sometimes birth control fails. Sometimes there are married couples that can not afford another baby. Frankly, Jesus and religion have no place when discussing sexuality. Religious people can better use their energy feeding the poor....who there will be many more if abortion is made illegal. Oh, I forgot...you don't care about the kids after they are born.

The anchor baby issue is something that is ignorant and I'm tired of hearing about. You obviously have a problem with immigrants. We are all anchor babies...unless you belong to a Native American tribe, then you should leave the country as well.

The expense may be "staggering" as you say, but it can be done and it is being done everyday by hard-working Americans. However, one of the many problems in this society is the ego-centric, indulgent and self-gratifying attitudes of our citizens. It seems that many couples would rather abort a child than "abort" their lifestyle--vacations, expensive home & cars, etc. This, to me, is a chilling statement about our society. Many of you on these posts excoriate individuals who have religious morals and values. However, many religions, especially Christianity, teach the very opposite of these attitudes. Yes, there are hypocrites and violent zealots, but many followers are truly not this way and are working hard to make this country, and this world, a better place. Abortion, among other evils, is the world's quick-fix to difficult issues.

Why don't you just adopt the kids these "selfish" adults don't want? Problem solved.

It would be helpful to have a scientific investigation of religion for once.

Religion sure tries to investigate science. The result is the continued dumbing down of the American people. Other countries don't make that mistake.

My viewpoint on abortion has nothing to do with religion. You spout individual rights need to be enshrined, but you completely ignore the rights of the unborn baby.

Abortion is terminating the life of an unborn baby. Do I need to repeat this or is that said plainly enough for you? Terminating a life is in other words killing. Killing another person on purpose is murder. Just because the Bible says "Thou shalt not kill" does not make my case a religious one.

Now you are going to argue that a child would be an economic detriment to some mothers. So in other words the mother would be better off economically if she did not have to deal with the child. Fair enough, but then wouldn't somebody be economically better off if they could walk into a bank and rob it with impunity? How about the criminal who wants to take the money in your wallet for his or her economic benefit? Can that criminal kill you for it?

You can argue that it is unfair for the pregnant women to bear the burden of a child, but that does not change the fact that terminating a birth is killing. There is no way around it. If you do not want to see mothers "punished" for being pregnant then lobby to get new laws which will help parents to take better care of their children without a huge impact to their bank accounts.

TB, not everyone agrees on what point life begins. Some view it as conception. Others view it at birth. Others use various milestone moments in fetal development to determine the existence of life. Those that do not consider conception as instant "life" do not view it as "killing" should it be removed prior to whatever point one considers when life exists.

"Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." John Adams

What I don't understand is that if someone commits a crime on a pregnant woman, such as assault, and the unborn child's life is terminated in the act, two things happen: (1) the "child in utero" is considered a victim of the crime; and (2) the criminal is charged under a separate offense with the same level of punishment had the death occurred to the mother.

Now imagine a situation arises that no harm comes to the mother, but the unborn child's life is still lost. The mother is not a victim because no wrong has been done to her, but (since it's a separate offense) the child is still a victim and a crime has been committed.

Why is it any different if the mother has an abortion? The unborn child's life is still ended against its will. How is it not a victim?

The most populated nation on Earth believes that life begins at conception, but then again they also practice abortion as birth control.

I personally have no issue with the use of birth control pills (although the amount of extra estrogen we dump into the environment is crazy bad), the morning after pill or another form of abortion that takes place in the extremely early stages, but once that little guy or girl takes the shape of a human then it is a life.

Just because it makes somebody more comfortable about snuffing out a baby's life by using clinical terms such embryo, first trimester or others doesn't change the fact that a life is being terminated. If one wants to keep religion out of the debate then logically they should believe in life beginning with conception. If religion gets into the picture then one can argue the soul doesn't enter the body of the baby until a certain point.

If astronaughts landed on Mars and found an embryo of some being with a beating heart, but being kept alive by some sort of life support system would that embryo be proof of extra terrestrial life or just a bunch of cells that might turn into life?

@Morgan1

The Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded by the Christian religion" - Treaty of Tripoli, Article 11, submitted to the Senate by JOHN ADAMS

"Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise, every expanded prospect"- James Madison

Freedom4everyone! I agree 100%

KelQvt! perfectamundo

my spew..Any perspective on this subject is purely due to your own perspective as a product or a victim of your own environment, wheels on the bus go round and round L.o.L.

Dandr....obviously you have never watched sixteen and pregnant. Glorifying teen pregnancy is not the first word that comes to mind. If anything it will scare the crap out of teenagers having sex. Who would want to aspire to any of them?

TB, science and the law disagree with you: there is no "child" or "baby" until it emerges from the womb and takes its first unassisted breath. Just because it makes YOU feel more "holier-than-thou" to judge everyone else by what personal decisions they make does not make you any less of a sanctimonious, judgmental fool.

Morgan1, you might find these quotes interesting:

"As I understand the Christian religion, it was, and is, a revelation. But how has it happened that millions of fables, tales, legends, have been blended with both Jewish and Christian revelation that have made them the most bloody religion that ever existed?" --- John Adams, letter to F.A. Van der Kamp, Dec. 27, 1816

"I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved--the Cross. Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced!" --- John Adams, letter to Thomas Jefferson

"What havoc has been made of books through every century of the Christian era? Where are fifty gospels, condemned as spurious by the bull of Pope Gelasius? Where are the forty wagon-loads of Hebrew manuscripts burned in France, by order of another pope, because suspected of heresy? Remember the 'index expurgatorius', the inquisition, the stake, the axe, the halter and the guillotine." --- John Adams, letter to John Taylor

"The priesthood have, in all ancient nations, nearly monopolized learning. And ever since the Reformation, when or where has existed a Protestant or dissenting sect who would tolerate A FREE INQUIRY? The blackest billingsgate, the most ungentlemanly insolence, the most yahooish brutality, is patiently endured, countenanced, propagated, and applauded. But touch a solemn truth in collision with a dogma of a sect, though capable of the clearest proof, and you will find you have disturbed a nest, and the hornets will swarm about your eyes and hand, and fly into your face and eyes." --- John Adams, letter to John Taylor

The clergy...believe that any portion of power confided to me [as President] will be exerted in opposition to their schemes. And they believe rightly: for I have sworn upon the altar of God, eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man. But this is all they have to fear from me: and enough, too, in their opinion." --Thomas Jefferson to Benjamin Rush, 1800.
"In every country and every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot ... they have perverted the purest religion ever preached to man into mystery and jargon, unintelligible to all mankind, and therefore the safer engine for their purpose." --- Thomas Jefferson, to Horatio Spafford, March 17, 1814

"Is uniformity attainable? Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, imprisoned; yet we have not advanced an inch towards uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one half the world fools, and the other half hypocrites. To support roguery and error all over the earth." --- Thomas Jefferson, from "Notes on Virginia"

"Shake off all the fears of servile prejudices, under which weak minds are servilely crouched. Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call on her tribunal for every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear." --- Thomas Jefferson, letter to Peter Carr, Aug. 10, 1787

"It is too late in the day for men of sincerity to pretend they believe in the Platonic mysticisms that three are one, and one is three; and yet that the one is not three, and the three are not one. But this constitutes the craft, the power and the profit of the priests." --- Thomas Jefferson to John Adams, 1803

"But a short time elapsed after the death of the great reformer of the Jewish religion, before his principles were departed from by those who professed to be his special servants, and perverted into an engine for enslaving mankind, and aggrandizing their oppressors in Church and State." --- Thomas Jefferson to S. Kercheval, 1810

"History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance, of which their political as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purpose." --- Thomas Jefferson to Baron von Humboldt, 1813

"On the dogmas of religion, as distinguished from moral principles, all mankind, from the beginning of the world to this day, have been quarreling, fighting, burning and torturing one another, for abstractions unintelligible to themselves and to all others, and absolutely beyond the comprehension of the human mind." --- Thomas Jefferson to Carey, 1816

"But the greatest of all reformers of the depraved religion of his own country, was Jesus of Nazareth. Abstracting what is really his from the rubbish in which it is buried, easily distinguished by its lustre from the dross of his biographers, and as separable from that as the diamond from the dunghill, we have the outlines of a system of the most sublime morality which has ever fallen from the lips of man. The establishment of the innocent and genuine character of this benevolent morality, and the rescuing it from the imputation of imposture, which has resulted from artificial systems, invented by ultra-Christian sects (The immaculate conception of Jesus, his deification, the creation of the world by him, his miraculous powers, his resurrection and visible ascension, his corporeal presence in the Eucharist, the Trinity; original sin, atonement, regeneration, election, orders of the Hierarchy, etc.) is a most desirable object." --- Thomas Jefferson to W. Short, Oct. 31, 1819

We are footing the bill for these children and their parents!

We're footing the bill for a lot of abortions as well, both in and outside our country.

Freedom 4.... Hitler believe in freedom of choice as well!

Medicaid will not cover abortions, so where are you getting that the taxpayers are paying for them?

Freedom, do you support the death penalty?

I see you're anti-religious hate spewed all over the vine, but couldn't remember exactly where you weighed in on the death penalty.

I've probably said this before to you, but I will pray for God's Holy Spirit and Grace in your life.

Yeah, never understood that one. Medicaid will pay for the entire pregnancy, but not abortion. Ridiculous rationale on the Governments part.

No need in discussing religion with you. You already know everything about religion. Let's just talk about "rights". Does the unborn baby have no "rights"? And, will you explain to me why if a pregnant mother is crossing the street and is hit by a car and dies, the driver of the car may be charged with (two) counts of vehicular homicide; but if that same mother decides to have six abortions and kill six unborn babies, she can not be charged with anything? i'm sure your explanation will be enlightning.

A fetus must be at an age that if given the right circumstance, it would naturally survive outside the womb. Some states require either 7,8, or 9 months. An abortion is generally given within the first 10-12 weeks; therefore, the embryo/fetus (@ 12weeks) cannot survive outside the womb. Hope you are now enlightened.

So which do you choose? Cutting govt welfare assistance to needy mothers [cut govt. wasteful spending in a welfare society] or giving women a choice that saves tax payers money in the long run?

I choose to teach that actions have consequences. If you don't want to have a child, use the appropriate birth control to prevent it. It isn't rocket science, take the birth control pill, put a condom on and back up before you unload. It really is that easy.

Every form of birth control is not 100% without fail. Even after vasectomy or tubal ligation, there is still always a slight risk (very slight, but it is still possible).

Mike,

I should have been more clear. I am suggesting using a combination of birth control methods. If I don't want something to happen I take every reasonable measure to be sure it doesn't happen.

TBAustin-You make a point in a sense about the economics of having a baby, but when it comes to lobbying to get new laws to help parents take better care of their children that, will just cause the government to raise taxes to support the care. So in essence you are not condoning robbing banks or muggings, but you consider stealing money from people legally by raising taxes the right thing to do. Now if you are willing to pay for these kids then you can tell people what to do with their own bodies.

I did not tell them to get pregnant. If I get drunk and hurt myself then should I be responsible for my actions? How about if I was sober? If one believes in the nanny state then they should lobby for the government to take care of careless drunks and sexually active women who did not use enough measures to stop from getting pregnant. I was not advocating the nanny state solution, but rather just saying that it doesn't matter what the government does to support a mother in regards to abortion being killing or not. Having the government support a mother or not is another debate.

With that said there are many support groups and charities that will help a mother out with a child. Yes many of them are religious based, but I do not think many if any demand a mother converts in order to receive their help.

Icedini, you forget that men are the ones not paying child support. Men need the heat too. Dont be sexist.

Buck you might be the minority. As you see by some of the posts, most men put total responsibility on the woman. Your right, it should be both.

TB, thankfully, we do not all have to live according to YOUR beliefs.

TB if you get drunk and dont wear a condom, then it is your damn fault too.

Just want to mention that a religious organization talked my niece (not mentally stable++) into having a child. Sex once=pregnant. Once they had her & family convinced they were all so tight & even took her shopping & gave her gifts for the baby. Also convinced them the rest of us should be ignored. All touchy feely stuff, no counseling. Had state pay for medical issues.

Once she was past legal to abort stage they were done. Call the state for help. Ah, a year later. Niece locked in mental ward, didn't finish high school. Young son w/ her mom. Her mom had to quite job to care for toddler. $20,000 debt & whole family on welfare. Marriage beyond strained, father of baby in jail. Did I mention family tore apart? Oh and did I mention the child is in a home which is not good? Alcoholism, violence, bad nutrition & that is just the stuff they don't hide from me.

The persons who rescue a soul in this manner are irresponsible and selfish and if you think God is going to reward you for this I think you'll be surprised. The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

If you don't like the law change it. I pity those like my niece who are led into this situation. Yes there are those who regret abortion but there are many more who do not.

Also someone mentioned being selfish not giving 9 mos.? Having a child is 18 yrs. if your lucky, 25 maybe and a lifetime of expense and responsibility. Some people (thank goodness) have the strength (probably via faith) to not be so selfish as to not have a child they cannot care for. Be brave and put the burden on yourself to go without or do what needed. Don't put the burden on the child.

It is easy to ask someone else to assume that burden, especially based on your religious views. Use the free will God gave you, let go of the judgement and show compassion. If you really believe it then sponsor that child into adulthood. Then see if she will have the child for you.

Well said, Anne. If only religion didn't brainwash away so many people's common sense!

How many of the unwanted children living in welfare factory families, are loved and properly cared for? How about something as basic as supervision and monitoring progress in school and who they hang out with? Considering most of these families don't work, you would assume that these basic parenting duties were being performed. Not the case. So we end up with the next generation of criminals clogging the penal system, unwed mothers bearing more illegitimate children, all being provided for by the few members of society left that made good choices in their lives. Just how is this bettering our society by enabling people to be nothing more than baby factories? It certainly doesn't help the children! It dooms them to repeat the cycle. This issue is color blind, as I see people of all colors in this cycle.

Today's newspaper had an article about my state's new plan to improve education in our cities, which have the largest educational achievement gap in the nation, largely due to the huge percentage of births to teenage and husbandless "mothers".

Our new governor has a plan to start pre-school classes "for all" three and four year old children. What comes next..."pre-school" for two year olds ?

Taxpayer funded daycare. That's what "school" is to most of the welfare folks, anyway. But this way, they STILL don't have to work. I believe you have to be employed to get daycare vouchers.

And our state's plan says pre-school for ALL three year olds and four year olds.

Our state's "achievement gap" has just produced a new wrinkle in explaining it.

Seems that inner city mothers have been entering their children into kindergarten or "pre K" at earlier and earlier ages...while suburban moms and dads are waiting longer and longer to put their children into a school setting.

In effect...we have fatherless four and a half year old children of urban teenage moms at the same grade levels as suburban six year olds. And our state is surprised that there's has been a worsening in test score comparisons between the two groups.

Government solution ??? Put all three and four year old children into what I guess they could call "pre-pre-pre K" school settings. "Costs" of course to be discussed at some future date !

Who cares what religion is going to have more followers? So because of fear of non Christian religions we are supposed ts not all get pregnant and have a bunch of babies? Ridiculous. I think it's outrageous that men even speak about abortion. How about when you guys can get pregnant and then push something out of your body, then you talk about it. I'm not understanding how a woman's choice to not be a mother if she isn't ready affects anyone other than the woman and the man who got her pregnant. It's no one's business what women choose to do w/ their own bodies... get a grip and mind your own business.

Errmmm... it's called, Google search: Agent Smith Quotes.

C'mon ice, don't you know to the conservatives that "abstinence only" is the answer to everything? Hardly sustainable if one is already married, and many wouldn't be married long if that were the case.

Unfortunately, much of anti abortion rhetoric is "emotion without obligation". How many of these people would be cheering to see their taxes cut at the expense of single mothers? How many of them volunteer to babysit the severely handicapped child they talked someone out of getting an abortion so the parents can go out for just a few hours?

If you don't believe in abortion, don't begrudge food to the mothers and children who were caught up in the unwanted pregnancy thing.

Blanket statements are rarely accurate- most conservatives I know are more interested in prevention than in abstinence only. Sure, abstinence is a great method- 100% effective and, God forbid, might teach kids that sex is actually meaningful when reserved for a committed relationship, but there are many practical among us who understand that while it's ideal, it's not realistic- better to arm kids with every possible bit of knowledge available and the tools necessary to prevent pregnancy so we can all but eliminate the need for elective abortions. The problem, as far as I'm concerned, is that too many kids these days aren't taught that there are consequences to their actions. No one talks about the emotional aftermath of an abortion either. Pregnancy is the easiest STD there is to prevent- no method of birth control is 100% effective but if you double up, your chances of failure are extremely minimal. If it's important to you not to have a baby, take responsibility to prevent it. If an oops still happens, lets make sure we are giving girls (& women) every bit of information we can about the process and the aftermath, the risks, etc. Outlawing abortion is impractical and unwise but if we arm our kids with every piece of information we can, we can at least make it virtually unnecessary.

So you are or are not okay with abortion as a back up to failed birth control?

Trick question. I'm not ok with it personally but I've accepted that it will not go away no matter how much I'd like it to.

That wasn't a trick question. So in other words, you yourself would not opt to abort, but you accept that some women will not make the same choice as you?

I believe I've already stated my position. Twice.

Well, at first I was going to ask what other choices do we have if an accident occurs (birth control failure). But since it appears to me that (given your clarification) you seem to be pro-choice, in that you wouldn't choose abortion for yourself, but realize other women might not feel the same way and therefore understand their rights to choose for themselves.

Wrong. Definitely pro-innocent . I strongly believe that when you choose to engage in the behavior you chose to accept the consequences of your actions. The only instance where I believe elective abortion should be considered is in cases of rape and incest. But I am also a realist. I know that is not going to function for society as a whole as long as we continue on the "do what feels good and consequences be damned" path we've been on for the last many years. Which is why I would prefer to see education above all else- if we limit the number of unintended pregnancies, we limit the number of abortions which is the win as far as I'm concerned.

So a child is a consequence instead of being wanted? Wow children are punishments for having sex. That's always nice to hear. Sarc/

Which is so much worse than a child being such an inconvenience to the mother that she can kill him or her?

The point you are so desperately trying to ignore is that we all need to accept responsibility for our choices. If you don't want a child, take every step in your power to prevent pregnancy- it's honestly not that hard to do. When the proper steps are taken, the incidents of unintended pregnancy are few and far between. As the old saying goes, an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. Society as a whole improves when we are proactive rather than reactive.

Well heavens knows there's been plenty of education, as most five-year-old kids can explain (correctly, I might add) where babies come from. And there is no doubt that birth control is easily accessible. However, not all birth control is 100%, and for those failures, as a realist, we all understand that is where elective abortions come into play.

It is not being irresponsible to not want to become a burden on society by expecting tax payers to support an unplanned pregnancy.

Those with the punitive views towards pregnancy sound like the old adage of "Misery loves company".

Since we're keepin' it real, I trust you are at least wiling to concede that the vast majority of abortions are not performed because of birth control failures (unless of course you want to consider failure to use it as a failure. I do not) and that we could certainly do better in this area?

For the record, I have 2 grandkids, 8 nieces and nephews, at least 2 cousins and 2 aunts who were products of unintended pregnancy and their parents supported each and every one of them. Accidental pregnancy does not automatically equal welfare baby.

A fetus is not a child. Abortion is not murder. If you believe otherwise, than don't have an abortion.

Suzy, do you really think that women would choose abortion as their primary form of birth control? I truly do not believe that at all. It is far more painful and expensive for a woman to go through an abortion than to use any of the easily obtainable, highly affordable forms of birth control available today. Therefore, it only makes sense that the majority of abortions are because of birth control failure.

Well, unintended pregnancy is perhaps a bit different than unwanted. I'd suspect many unwanted pregnancies are unwanted because of financial constraints, and in that case, accidental pregnancy most likely does equal welfare baby.

No where did I say abortion is the primary form of birth control for anyone. I asked if you will concede the fact that the majority of abortions performed are not done because of birth control failures. Statistics for most birth control methods say they are 99.9% effective, that means 1 in 1000 pregnancies are a result of a birth control failure. Abortion rates are far higher than 1 in 1000 pregnancies, ergo the majority of abortions performed are done for reasons other than birth control failure.

I'm doing my best to have an honest debate on the topic. As I've said, I am soundly pro-innocent (not pro-life, I am also solidly in favor of the death penalty, especially in cases like the AZ shooting where there is absolutely no question of guilt) and the reasonable goal I would like to see achieved is proper education and accountability to reduce the number of unintended pregnancies which would automatically decrease the number of abortions. I accept that no matter how much I am against the practice, it will never go away but we can make it all but unnecessary but that can't happen unless folks like you also agree to have an honest debate and not twist words and definitions to prove a point you can't otherwise defend.

And there really is no such thing as an unwanted pregnancy that results in the birth of a child. Abortion is legal and available- the babies born are born because someone decided not to abort them and I have a hard time believing anyone brings a child into the world with the intent of neglecting the child. Even I'm not that cynical.

Suzy- I am not trying to twist any words. In your first post, you were vague about being a realist, so I wasn't certain if that meant you accepted abortion or not. But now that has been cleared up. I am not trying to be dishonest with you. Please show me where you feel I was doing just that- I'm not saying this facetiously, either, as I am more than willing to hear the other side of the debate

Actually the statistics for every form birth control are not 99.9% effective. I read a chart once (many years ago) about the effectiveness of each form of birth control. Obviously rhythm was the least effective, but diaphragms, i.u.d., spermicide, sponges (back in the day when they still made the sponge), condoms, and even chemical birth control were all on the list with their fail rates. Granted, the pill was the most effective, but not every woman can, is is willing to (or would want to, given the horrible side effects of the pill) randomly alter her hormonal balance. Unfortunately, many unrelated hormones in a woman's body are effected by the estrogen/progesterone/testosterone balance, the thyroid cascade (tsh, t3, t4) being the most reactive to those changes, but the complete endocrine system is affected, and when altered can really make some women quite ill.

As far as thinking that there is no such thing as unwanted pregnancies being born, I've seen many unwanted kids. The mother's either were afraid to abort or could not afford the cost of the abortion. Many babies of drug addicts are neglected and die, many of these drug addict mom's could care less...sad but true. I can tell you of one instance in the ER, where a drug addicted homeless woman didn't even realize she was pregnant, nor did she care. She was so deep into her heroin buzz, she fell asleep during delivery. And no, the drug addicted baby was not taken from her before she left the hospital...the circle of life, ain't it grand?

I can also tell you about a girl I used to know- she made it clear to all of us (even her daughter), that she did not want her. She always told her daughter (and the rest of us), how much she regretted ever having her. I asked this woman why didn't she just abort, back when she realized she was pregnant (her daughter was 12-14 years old during the time when I knew her mother)? Her answer was because she was too afraid to go to a clinic, too afraid of the procedure, and she didn't have the money (never mind raising a baby costs so much more! Although she told me she could receive financial assistance for a baby, but not to have an abortion). But she never once wanted the baby, nor did she even want her then (as a 12 yr old). But she wouldn't put her up for adoption because "I went through all that (pregnancy/delivery), I'll be damned if I don't have something to show for it!"

So yes, it does happen- kids born into families that do not want them. Look at the streets of the inner city, I've actually known more women that were similar to that woman with the 12 yr old daughter I mentioned, but I used her as the example because she truly horrified me. So go ahead and be that cynical, because it does happen. It makes me sick, and I can't help but wonder if those poor kids would have been better off to have not been born.

If they would have taken the time to put the thought into preventative measures prior to sex, they wouldn't have had to make the choice in the first place.

Not all bc is 100%. Even surgical intervention (vasectomy, tubal ligation) still has a slight risk.

Mike,

I'm sorry your are WRONG. If you use more than one birth control method (pill plus condom) it is 100% effective if both are used properly.

Ironic, a family member of mine (in medicine, as well) had an unexpected pregnancy using three forms of birth control. Her pregnancy ended her hopes of opening her private practice.

mike ''Her pregnancy ended her hopes of opening her private practice.'' Doctors are allowed to have children? Sounds like another manufactured excuse to take a life.

Mike,

3 methods?? And all used PROPERLY?? You can be in medicine and not use birth control properly. I too have family members in medicine and all have children. One family member finished her education while raising 3 children. I have a close friend who is a nurse practitioner who lost his wife and still completed schooling. So I'd have to say a child ending her dreams is an excuse. She didn't want it badly enough to work for it. Or she chose to raise the child and be with the child full time (which is a very admirable thing) rather than working. AND she chose to give life rather than take it.

You can have it both ways. My mother had me a month after turning 15 and she managed without welfare. She worked hard and finished school. She's not superhuman, she just had her priorities in order.

Yes, all three used properly. She could not work throughout her pregnancy due to being too ill throughout the entire pregnancy. Nothing could control it, she went into renal failure from dehydration because of it. Prior to the pregnancy, she had been looking into leaving the group she was with and opening her own practice- hanging her own shingle out- but needless to say, that never came to fruition after all she went through. She was thankful she discovered she was going to be as ill as she was before signing on the dotted line for an office building.

I'm not trying to pick a fight but did you administer all three yourself to know they were all used properly. Intelligent people can screw up in the heat of passion. You argument just sounds too unbelievable. I'm telling you I've done this for he past 6 years and prior to that 4 years before my first child (very much planned) was born. I know for a fact it works.

Well, considering he had a vasectomy, she still used depo (and was always up-to-date on them), plus she used spermicide during those days on her calendar when she thought there might be any slight risk...I'd say they were pretty well covered.

buckeye, it might have worked for you, but it doesn't work for everyone. Just because it worked for you doesn't mean it's right for everyone else. Not all woment's bodies take kindly to pregnancy, no matter how much they want the baby. Just because a woman CAN get pregnant, doesn't mean she SHOULD.

buckeye, and what about people who are allergic to hormonal bc? just out of luck and have fun with babies? not all forms of bc are compatible with all people...

MikeT1213.....Just curious. How many of those 1.2 Million abortions in 2008 were due to a triple failure of 3--- 99.9% effective methods of birth control ??....

The odds for that happening are about the same as winning the lottery, surviving a plane crash and then getting struck and killed by lightning all in one hour on your way to claim your lottery winnings....

And you base everything on what your family member told you....unless you were joined at the hip....you have no idea or not if any of it is true or that was their way of justifying what they did.....to others....

PeaceLover & buckeyenut: so it's all up to the women to use birth control? Seems that there are TWO people involved when it comes to procreation -- shouldn't the male bear some responsibility to ensure that it doesn't result in pregnancy?

It's so easy to tell everyone else how to live his/her life, isn't it? Are you willing to be responsible for the babies that are born from all of these pregnancies that are carried to term? My guess is that, like nearly all so-called "pro-life" people, you are perfectly willing to force your beliefs on others, but you are not willing to put your money where your mouths are.

Thomasnash1027, kind of amazing how many seem to think the two are mutually exclusive, isn't it. Kudos to your mother, she sounds like a fantastic example of someone who assumed responsibility and made her best effort...two traits that appear to be in short supply for many these days.

Cindy, "If we can't have abortions, we've GOT to have welfare". You're obviously doing your part to "keep Austin weird".

Lonestar: you obviously missed Cindy's point. If your position is that we should turn back the clock and subsitute the state's will for an individual's (making all abortions illegal) than you'll have to deal with the consequences (a whole lot more unwanted children that cannot be cared for). Or you can stick with the position that you care only about a fetus until it is actually born (and the mother of course, not at all).

erin in nj ''PeaceLover & buckeyenut: so it's all up to the women to use birth control?'' Please do not put words in my mouth I fully support birth control!

Birth control- absolutely. But what about those instances when it fails? Even the pill, depo shots, vasectomy/tubal ligation are not 100%.

Mike,

Used in a combination (pill plus condom or vasectomy plus pill) it is 100% effective.

I had a friend have twins after a vasectomy and his girl was on the pill. he swore she cheated. but DNA dont lie.

KY on my mind,

First I must say WOW they should play the lottery. Second, was your friend checked to verify the vas. took? and then checked thereafter? Then I'd also have to say the girl didn't take the pill properly. That is the ONLY way they had twins. AGAIN I said birth control used PROPERLY with properly being the key word. If you don't want the outcome, use every method you can to prevent it.

buckeyenut,

Got any facts to back up that statement of 100%? Or are you just stating your opinion as fact? Are you some kind of obgyn that has made ground breaking discoveries in the world of contraception that only you know about?

From Webmd buckeyenut

Women take the pill by mouth to prevent pregnancy, and when taken correctly, is up to 99.9%

Now notice the words UP TO in there. That means is can be that effective but not all the time.

Here's the link so you can look for yourself

http://www.webmd.com/sex/birth-control/birth-control-pills

So where did you get your figure of 100%?

Johnny,

If I've successfully done this does it make it opinion or fact?? And wow, for someone who can read from webmd you certainly seem unable to read my posts. I said used in a combination and used PROPERLY.

Johnny,

Another point I'd like to make is IF, and that's a big if, the man uses both heads during sex and pulls out before hand while using a condom and the woman is properly taking the pill there is no way a pregnancy occurs. I guess my point is dumb people shouldn't have sex.

So....now you're giving instructions on how to have sex? And dictating who should or should not have sex? Hmmm...I thought what people do in the privacy of their own bedrooms was nobody's business. And kentucky, your friend is not the only one with a birth control fail.

All I'm saying is stupid people shouldn't have sex. If you aren't smart enough to use ALL methods available to avoid a pregnancy, you probably shouldn't have sex because you are not smart enough to raise a child.

Funny, my family member who had an unexpected pregnancy had an extensive education, graduating with honors...I'd hardly call her stupid. It's just a fact that birth control can, and does fail.

Sometimes book smarts don't translate to real world smarts. Some of the smartest people I know have no common sense.

I agree that "women" should be educated about and given total access to birth control measures. I oppose making it available to children and teens--they are the ones I believe should be taught abstinence for many reasons.

buckeyenut, apparently you have neither "smarts".

Apparently, you are not aware that more than half of the women having abortions in this country cite contraceptive failure as the reason for having the procedure. So most of the women having abortions never intended to get pregnant in the first place. It's very easy to say that "birth control is effective 100% of the time" when you don't actually have any way of knowing that, isn't it?

I'm thinking they are pissed off becauese someone had sex and they want them to be punished.

Ok I'm only an 18 year biology major and I know from that there's no way any birth control is 100%. They teach us that in anatomy and health. Even used completely properly there's still a risk. Just saying, obviously you're just lucky, or possibly less fertile than some people.

'henryt'?

Do you have any idea how many babies, toddlers and even older children are available for adoption, right now? In 2004 (apparently the latest year for which accurate numbers are available), approximately 120,000 were available.

And that number is with current laws. Eliminate the possibility of abortion, and are you willing to adopt another two or three?

And also remember, the older the child is, the more difficulty it is to get them adopted. Almost all unadopted teenagers remain unadopted until they turn 18, when they are no longer 'in the adoption pool'.

Maybe those two or three additional adoptions you need to make should be children who are of school age at the time of adoption? Can you give us a valid and logical reason why not?

Many people would adopt if the costs were not so high. Why does it cost 10-25K to adopt via the system? the money would be better spent raising the child, not the lawyers fees

Not every woman can afford to go through with her pregnancy. Some (many) women are quite ill throughout the entire time and can not afford to take time off from work. Many employers will not allow for time off from work. Maternity leaves are not paid time off, it is merely an excused absence. Perhaps some employers offer paid time off, but many (most) do not (think waitress, cashier, fast food, gas station attendant, etc).

kelldon,

A better question is why does it cost less to adopt from CHINA with plane tickets included than it does to adopt here at home??

Mike-That is why people plan their lives. Waiting till the time is right and not getting pregnant when they are not in the right position to do so. that is why there is what they call a family. Husband, Wife-then kids.

that is fine for you but, have you for one minute considered that many women cannot see themselves having to deal with nine months of pregnancy and then the pain of giving birth? Great for those people who want a kid but there are many who do not and are not ready for the mere idea of parenthood. Should a woman be saddled with something she is not ready to deal with like that? It is a personal decision and if you dont want a kid, then deal with the issue. It is none of my business nor should it be any of yours.

Maureen- The woman should have made better choices before getting pregnant. Quite acting like pregnancy comes from a toilet seat or is caught like a cold. You make a decision to have a sexual relationship. You know all the consequences. Murder should not be an option.

kelldon, in this country, abortion is legal, and is not considered murder. The fetus is not considered a "baby" or "child" until it takes its first unassisted breath outside the womb. You seem to have an idea that everything can be planned; the reality is that more than half of the women having abortions cite contraceptive failure as the reason for the abortion, so they never intended to get pregnant at all.

Perhaps YOU should make better choices in your beliefs. Thankfully, we do not all have to live according to YOUR beliefs.

Not all people who are sexually active know that having sex or even close to it can cause a pregnancy. Actually they need to know in advance of being sexually active. Those who are not taught about sex in a scientific manner or those with strict religious beliefs or abstinance only methods often don't know the truth.

America was formed for religious freedoms, church and state are seperate yet many Americans can only use religion as their reason for wanting to govern others. This cannot be, we must use the laws of the land. Keep your faith between yourself and whomever you follow.

Erin- Owning a slave use to be legal in the US and then we saw that it was wrong. Even now we go back and say what those people did was wrong. Abortion is no different. Just because it is legal does not make it right. Your arguments for killing millions of babies are pretty lame and not very convincing. Sorry, you did not persuade anyone with you argument.

Maureen, I agree, the ability and desire to have sex does not equate to the ability and desire to parent a child. How do you feel about extending the same courtesy to the male population? I'm not saying men should have any say in a woman's choice--only that they should have the same choice of deciding whether to be a parent as a result of pregnancy. Under gender discrimination law, if the law says to one sex that "neither the sex act nor pregnancy is determinitive in whether parental responsibility will be assumed", then it must say the same to the other sex.

Kelldon, "murder" is a legal term which specifies an event to be "unlawful". Abortion is legal and therefore not murder. The ability and desire to have sex does not equate to an ability or desire to become a parent. Legal, consensual, sex is none of the governments business, and neither are the individual decisions to undergo pregnancy or parent a child as a result of the sex act.

We adopted as well. Doesn't change my position on choice at all. I don't think this is the government's decision. This decision is the woman's.

Ok first off, adoption is great, I have several cousins because of it, and my great aunt worked in an orphanage in a foreign country for many years and adopted a little girl there. However, it is increasingly difficult for families to adopt because of cost and availability of children who are put up for traditional adoptions. Most teenagers now want very open adoptions, and older women want to keep their kids. I have an aunt who wants a baby desperately and could support one as good or better than most couples, being a doctor, but she can't because she is single. Adoption should be as cheap and available to safe and good homes as abortions are to everyone. Then we'd be getting somewhere.

Cry over the non innocents and forget the 1.21 million that were- Twisted logic.

kelldon, huh??? Who are you referring to as "non innocents"? DrSebby is talking about the "colateral damage" in wars like Iraq -- you know, that war we were initially told we were fighting because of WMDs? Colateral damage, if you don't know, refers to the DEATH of INNOCENT civilians, men, women and children, elderly people an young people, in their homes, in their neighborhoods, who are the unintended victims of bombs and gunfire. DrSelby's comment is about people who are more concerned about a fetus that has no awareness of its own existence than actual living, breathing-on-their-own human beings who have lives and loved ones and people who need them.

So you would rather irresponsible women raise kids? The manner in which birth control fails is...by a pregnancy. Therefore, she is being responsible by using birth control, and through no fault of her own, it fails...and in your view this is her fault? It seems you approve of using a pregnancy as a punitive consequence for women who are immoral, by your standard. Surely you have better things to do with your life than judge and attempt to impose your beliefs on others?

If they are irresponcible have them spayed like we would any other animal

you have voiced your opinion...you would not have an abortion but i would like to see how you would feel if your situation financially and emotionally was in the balance. I don't tell you to have as many kids as you like and how to support them and take care of them emotionally and physically. Don't be telling me that I can't have the same right with my body.

Maureen- you do have rights- don't get pregnant i you don't want to. Murder of a baby is not an option that is reasonable

I always scratch my head at the anti-abortion people who would be OK with abortions if they were only in cases of rape and incest. I mean, wouldn't it still be murder, if you think abortion is murder?

For that matter, if abortion is murder, why are people not calling for women who get abortions to be tried as murderers? Women aren't feeble-minded. If they choose to get abortions, and abortions are murders, well, doesn't that make them murderers?

I don't believe any of this, by the way. I am pro-choice. But I have never understood these two points of view, and look forward to someone explaining them to me.

I don't totally disagree with you. However, not all unwanted pregnancies happen to teens only.

it has been shown time and time again that abstinence only education DOES NOT WORK. every cell in our bodies is programmed toward reproducing. to deny or ignore that is just burying your head in the sand. telling teenagers that sex is a terrible and shameful thing only serves to make them less open and honest about the subject and therefore less likely to seek out birth control. people, especially horny teenagers, are GONNA HAVE SEX.

Teaching abstinence to teens is not akin to teaching them that sex and sexuality is a horrible and shameful thing. Part of the teaching of abstinence is to teach teens self-discipline and self-respect, and that sexuality is beautiful if expressed in the proper way, which in my opionion is within marriage. Television, books, songs all "teach" kids that having sex is fun, glamorous, and mostly without consequence. Teens need to realize the negative emotional impact that having sex early can have on them, especially girls! We need to build these kids up, not let them succumb to misinformation. That, coupled with education about contraception (because many will have sex regardless), in my humble opinion, will reduce the amount of teen pregnancies.

Sex education needs to be a mixture of both pro-active information (how to use/get contraceptives, STD information, etc.) as well as a bit of "the only 100% way to prevent pregnancy and STDs is to abstain from sexual activity all together". Currently many states only have one version or the other. Advocating for a comprehensive, age appropriate sex education for all children needs to be priority #1 for all pro-choice and pro-life groups. Knowledge is power - only teaching our kids abstinence is denying them tools they need for healthy relationships. For those of you who say 'who are these people who don't know about contraceptives?' there are thousands of them - because their parents / guardians were unable to sit them down and have an adult conversation about sex with them, because words like 'penis' and 'vagina' made them feel uncomfortable. People need to own their sexuality and not be afraid of it, because their negative attitudes get passed down to their children. Hello world, I have a uterus, and I would like to be able to decide what I do with it.

On a different note - countries that have completely outlawed abortion such as Chile and Nicaragua - still have a very high percentage of back-alley abortions. It shows that even if you outlaw it, women will still seek these services. The best thing that can be done is to keep it legal, safe and rare. Taking away a woman's right to control her reproductive system puts us back 100 years.

Right on Smallstuff!!!!

And yet you want the government to step in, I am guessing, and ban abortions. So I guess the government is only bad in your eyes when it is not doing what you want it to.

a function of a bad society

Yes. It is interesting that sex education and birth control is so available, yet one million babies are destroyed each year. Is this progress? And, not only are the taxpayers required to fund people's sexual practices, we are also required to let them destroy their progeny. Awesome.

You're funding what??? (If you really were an American, you'd understand what the constitution means...yes, that's right...even for women.)

Yes. Times may get hard, but we do what we need to do.

Thank you. Mine was unplanned but I love my little boy and wouldn't trade him for the world.

My wife of 27 years is great! marriage is great, My daughter is fine and well adjusted. Graduating college soon with some very promising career opportunities.My foster daughter is doing well, both of which are 24 now. My Other sorta daughter we raised is also 24, has a child of her own and is also doing very well. Not angry at any one- I don't really care what you do. You will have to sort that out in the end morally and physiologically.However abortion is still murder no matter how you look at it. If you are that concerned about pregnancy keep you little legs crossed and stop killing innocent children.

A woman and her own family, where's the man? Or is that like Al Capone and his own gang. Your in his gang you follow the rules-or else. Certainly since it has been proven that a child is alive and reproducing from it's own cells from conception I thought we were beyond this. Apparently, not. At what point do we as a society carry the proabortion philosophy to it's logical, Loughner end. He's well adjusted, he's smiling, he's fine. Think about it he's smiing, he's fine. No he isn't fine, anymore than girls who abort. They are guilty of a crime against nature, and need help.

I have to wonder if your wife and daughters are really doing that great since you seem to show contempt towards women and do not have a full understanding of the long term impact an unwanted pregnancy can have on a women's life. Also, your comment at the end is focused on pregnancy being the woman's fault without any mention of the males responsibility. These comments remind me of how men in Arab countries feel about women.

But at least your consistent in your beliefs since your "sorta" daughter is a mother at a young age with your full support which is great! Hopefully her boyfriend/husband is still around and providing financial support since that's not typically the case with many young mothers. Not sure when she had the child, but if she was a teenager, the grandparents often end up footing the bill. Good luck.

John -- family was meant to include the man (or boy) -- however, there are many times when the male does not stay around. I know of three instances in my own life of girls who became pregnant as teenagers and kept their babies. They are now all older, but do you know how many of the fathers stayed around -- zero. The woman suffers emotionally, financially and socially as a single mother. Men also may suffer financially with child support, but they do not bear the burden of raising the children which prevents women from finding gainful employment. Raising a child is a 24/7 responsibility. You brought up Loughner. His parents may not have been paying attention to him which could be the reason he fell off the deep end. People should only have children if they are ready and able to spend time raising them.

look here you all I ain't here to judge nobody. But the way I see it is that murder is murder and I don't condone abortions. I am a mom and a wife and my pregancy was unintended but life isn't perfect and I think that having my baby was the best thing to ever happen to me.

Laurazz- It seems no matter what we say you will construe it as some weird way of thinking. I have no contempt for women-I happen to like them very much. My wife is happy and content- tells me so often- My daughter,just talked to her in Chicago, is good and happy- living alone going to school, working and making the choice not to sleep with every guy she meets and setting up goals for herself. The whole unwanted pregnancy is the issue at heart. The is no reason for an unwanted pregnancy. in this day and age, there is more information about birth controlol, statistics about unwanted pregnancy, educational opportunities etc that there is no reason for this to occur. the only reason is due to a lack of morality and or priorities. The argument about unwanted pregnancies is getting very old. And my Sorta daughter is 24, has a great loving man in her life supporting her and his daughter. But let me make a correction. i do have contmpt for women who use abortion as their form of birth control- You should meet my foster daughters mother.

"No reason for an unwanted pregnancy", except if the chosen form of birth control fails. My pregnancies were unplanned, but I was fortunate enough to be secure enough to have them (many, many years ago). However, I would never- never in a million years- presume to know what is right for others, and go about trying to change legislature to make decisions for other people. To view oneself as knowing what is best for others is to suffer from delusions of grandeur.

It is a responsibility of all people to look at right and wrong and determine their value system. Do we know when life begins? No - we have a belief system that dictates this to each of us. Should we then err on the side of death, or life? While we don't impose our beliefs on one another, we must err on the side of life.

Thanks achick. My sentiments exactly.

God bless America- I agree, we should err on the side of life. And since we know for certain that a woman who has an unwanted pregnancy is most certainly alive, I certainly hope we err on the side of her life.

Sarcasm aside, why are the lives of women inconsequential to those against her rights to her body?

The people who care about unborn children do so because they care about all life. You may be surprised to know but many pro-lifers are also working in missions far and near, homeless shelters, create food pantries, make blankets for newborns that they never meet, donate to many charities and on and on. It is part and partial with living according to our religious truths. Love one another as I have loved you. We know that that means lost and angry people such as yourself. As many have stated, life does not come with any guarantees. Your life could change tomorrow in ways you never thought possible. Please search your heart for truth. Someone loved you enough to give you this life.

Keldon: Respect for women means just that. Respect for women. You either trust them to make their own decision about their own bodies, or you want the state to make it for them in the form of taking away that choice. Anything else is just lip service.

Seems like we all need to just agree to disagree since we won't change each other's minds. Bottom line is that abortion is legal and safe and odds are that won't change since that would mean some women would need to be put under house arrest or go to jail during pregnancy to ensure they don't abort their fetuses using illegal/black market methods - which they will do given the chance. Do we really want to live in a society where a woman is forced to go through 9 months of pregnancy when she has no desire to do so? And what if she is raped, a victim of incest, or her life is in danger. Are we saying her life is less important than a fetus? I just don't see the law being overturned because of all these reasons -- not very realistic.

Annie- I don't believe your statement about those who care about pregnancies do so because they care about all life. All you have to do is read some of the posts those who are against women's rights have left right here in this vine- wishing death or imprisonment to women who don't agree, calling for violence, using verbal slurs, the list goes on. Yes, with caring for all life like that, I'd much rather they simply not care...with care like that, who needs love? Apathy would be far better.

I can say, my mother never had a choice regarding giving birth to me. Love never entered into the equation, she had no choice, as I was born before Roe v. Wade. Had I not been born, I wouldn't have cared. I'm not egotistical enough to think I am entitled to life.

Todd ''Yes, I think moral outrage is certainly justified'' agree 100% and America should be ashamed! 50 million dead americans is GENOCIDE!!

Not everyone agrees that life begins at conception. That is really the bottom line on the whole debate. I personally think life exists at a point during fetal development, but not at conception.

The US is morally bankrupt as indicated by the abortion rate and posters on this string.

Todd your ignorance is too blatent to ignore. If these students are using the morning after pill they DO NOT know whether they are pregnant or not. The morning after sex is way too early to actually know whether you are pregnant or not. The morning after pill should ensure that you do not in fact become pregnant. This is the stupidity that Americans have to live through. Medical and biological ignorance. I know you right wing religious zealots (or you could just be one of those male bigots) that wants to control women as chattel, but women actually have rights, can vote, and can make decisions about their reproduction rights without men like you.

Lot of truth in that and being bankrupt effects all area's of our social structure. I wonder how many children are born with the exact opposite view of abortion knowing full well abortion is an abortion of the mind only to come to the understanding that it is allowed? How does that effect the child's view or right and wrong? Just one consequence. Why should they care what happens to a nine year old little girl? Just an abortion that didn't happen.

For every action there is an equal but opposite reaction.

You people are the hight of hypocrisy. If you believe the earth over populated make a choice. That will not happen, cowards that kill the most innocent among us for gain AND CALL IT RIGHT shouldn't be expected to do anything of conscience. Conscience isn't something you can afford to have.

Can you imagine the horror ths country would be with 50 million more mouths to feed, cloth, house, educate. At not one single conservative willing to help.

Maybe a substantial number of the 50 million mouths to feed, cloth, educate, and house would have been inventors, businessmen/women, evangelists, Mother Theresas, entrepreneurs, etc. and aided in our current state of affairs.

amfcalam- you are a pain in the tail and who are you tell someone how stupid they are I think you need a smart check.

Sadee- yes, and many of those 50 million could be the reincarnation of Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot...

Hey now, Pol Pot wasn't all that bad. I mean, Ronald Reagan gave him covert budget funds, he had to be on the level....

How many people die in this country die due to corporate greed? 15-20 thousand because of no medical coverage. People like to think kids do not starve in thsi country but they do. There are so many children born in this country to drug and alcohol parents that are abused. The system does not have the funds to take care of them or protect them. So are all of you anti-abortion people going to care for all of these abused kids? There are so many kids where their parents have died either due to natural causes or accidents with no homes to place them in. Take it you do gooders like to see kids starve to death, be abused and so on?

Thanks for the laugh, Toasty!

We have people smart enough to know when they shouldn't bring a child into this world. We also have people dumb enough to not understand those people's point of view.

I bet you're anti-gay too. Love the fetus, hate the child. Right?

Actually the nazis killed 12 million...and the morning after pill is not an abortion pill. If taken after unprotected sex or birth control that has failed it will prevent a pregnancy from occurring. These girls are not getting abortions. They are trying to prevent a pregnancy. But I suppose you would be ok with them dropping out of college and having the baby, and possibly getting on welfare?

Todd: Your contempt for women is more than a bit ugly. Women are not some sort of lesser human being who need you or the government to make this decision for them. Your opinion is the one that is morally bankrupt. Stay out of business that is not yours (and for heavens sake: do some reading about the morning after pill so you can at least make a logical argument.)