You can hardly blame a person with highly disordered thinking for failure to get help. The very nature of their disorder will keep them from seeking help.

You are incorrect is stating that family can force the issue once the person is 18 or over...in many states there is nothing the family can do unless the person is suicidal or homicidal.

The other issue is lack of funding. Most are not working..so no insurance and doctors and hospitals will not treat without reimbursement. This treatment is very expensive and most families do not have the resources to self pay for treatment of the mentally ill family member.

Much of our homeless population in SE Wisconsin is mentally ill folks that are untreated.

your responses are inaccurate. it is very difficult to force treatment on an adult who doesn't want it. Your statement that it is his fault that he didn't get help doesn't go anywhere.

In some states, you can't "force" the issue even sooner than that. Here in WA, once a kid reaches the age of 13, you can't force them to get medical treatment of any kind, including mental health treatment. And even once you get an involuntary hold, and a civil committment hearing, it doesn't guarantee they will get help - my brother in law had a committment hearing, with my husband and father in law begging for committment, the judge allowed 30 days - then they cut him loose after 3! And he had threatened to kill the entire family! And no, he doesn't take his meds. And yes, I have a pang of fear anytime I hear of a violent interaction in their area.

There is fault but not the mental health system or politicians of either side. The apparent fault lies in the hands of an inept law enforcement official who repeatedly missed or ingnored the signs.

How dumb.

One of the hallmarks of schizophrenia is the absence of self-awareness that there is anything wrong with them. Why on earth would a person who doesn't see that they have a problem seek help for one????

THINK! For crying out loud! Quit letting a need to blame & a desire for revenge get the better of your heads, people.

What is needed is better psychiatric care & access to it along with a revision in laws allowing for parents & others to get someone admitted for mental health evaluation when it is suspected that they have a major mental disease.

We've all but done away with funding for mental diseases in this country & that's just criminal. And then we turn around & blame the victim of the disease for what their disease has done to them.

We don't blame people with cancer for the damage the disease does to their bodies, but we blame schizophrenics for the damage their disease does to their brains & the resulting changes in how they think & thus what they think is right or wrong & what their bodies do in response to that thinking.

Such a person doesn't have the capacity to control what they do because they don't have the capacity to evaluate their actions any longer. The disease has taken all such capacity away from them & kept control of their actions for itself.

And yet we keep trying to see things from the position of what a normal person would do. They keep thinking of it as being soft on crime or psycho-babble or any of a number of other asinine talking points thrown around without understanding what's really going on.

People keep failing to remotely comprehend that if your brain has been altered & made to think entirely differently than a normal person, those normal responses to the bizarre thoughts aren't present in the diseased mind & therefore can't be expected to take place & keep the victim of the disease from acting in a normal & acceptable manner.

Mom of 4, New York is one of those states where when kids turn 13 are allowed to make all medical decisions for themselves. Thank-goodness my daughter who was diagnosed with bi-polar disorder wanted her dad and me to help make crucial decisions with her. Many parents are not as fortunate. The hippa laws also contribute to this

However, when we began to notice that she had issues-in second grade and opted for counseling/medication immediately. I've have no doubt she would have committed suicide if we hadn't. She is 20 now and is living a happy, full life.

This guy was showing signs all over the place. He was kicked out of a community college for disruptive behavior, all his associates said he was a nut case, but he was able to go in and buy a hand gun.

You have to take a written and driver test to get a license to drive a car, but when you want a hand gun, just fill out the forms and buy the ammo. No one from the police department, city, county nor state ever talked to him nor interviewed him before granting him permission to buy a hand gun.

Disa, when one is mentally ill, one often cannot think logically. For you to say "He didn't go get the help" because he probably didn't think anything was wrong with him. And we don't know if he had insurance or not - because we have NO system.

Colleges are on the front lines in many cases. 18-26 is the age when many schizophrenics and persons with bipolar disorder start having significant problems. Students who were diagnosed before often are on thier own for the first time and stop taking their meds.

Also, many students who would not have been able to attend college in previous decades, now do so.

Meanwhile, most college mental health services are over-booked and stretched too thin. Financial difficulties (depressed endowments, cut-backs in State and Federal funding, decreases in donations, etc.) put pressure on colleges to cut budgets, even in mental health treatment.

There is also a huge problem with procedures in handling these problems. Does every student and every faculty member know whom to inform when they think there is a possiblity that a student will become violent?

Pima Community College actually took more action than I would have thought. To bar a student from returning without mental health clearance is a major step. If he had sued, it may have been stricken.

As a teacher I can also tell you that many parents ignore early signs. They can get very defensive and we have to be very careful of what we say because of potential lawsuits. Actually, bi-polar mood swings can start at around puberty. My daughter was diagnosed at the age of 13. It can manifest itself as anxiety/depression in very young ages. We started my daughter on meds in second grade. Parents do no want to "see" the problem, and they think meds are "taboo". It usually starts very early.

I'm with you. I have an ex-husband that refused to take any medications, now he lives with his parents, they don't make him do a thing about his illness. He can only see his children with supervision, for fear he will do something. I would have stayed with him, if he would have stayed on his meds. He now has his parents beliving he was never mentally ill. I fear he could be the cause such a violent incedent. Scary! Nobody's fault, bu his, he has the ability to make himself better.

How can you be so insenstive? His parents are greiving, too. It is not their fault. It's not like you can take an adult down to your local mental health facility, and admit him. Did he have medical insurance? Highly unlikely, because he was mentally ill. Most insurances DO NOT cover mental health. And, the public has made it very clear that they DO NOT want the Government to be involved with medical issues. Also, in defense of the parents, sometimes the clues are gradual. My brother mentioned once that he was hearing voices, so my Mother told him he needed to go see a doctor. A month later he killed my sister-en-law, and then committed suicide. My father-en-law had been committed, but was released. He didn't stay on his meds, and committed suicide. My son was murdered by an individual that was under State Dept. of Corrections oversight, and his appointed doc diagnosed him as violent, a danger, and most likely to defend, because he was mentally ill. This is not the last time we will see this kind of violence by someone mentally ill, because it's a stigma to seek help, and those that are not affected are not going to be willing to pay for mental health for others. Instead we pay for it with destroyed lives.

Stop blaming the parents. This man is an adult. He most likely was too old to be on the parents' insurance (so it doesn't matter who the parents worked for), and no one can force an adult to get help, anyway.

Do you have any proof that his parents NEVER saught help for him?

What has been reported is that he did not present a mental health clearance to return to PimaCommunity College.

He is 22. Once he left college last year, he was probably purged from his mother's insurance coverage (assuming he was on it then).

Mental health treatment is very expensive and not well-covered by many policies.

You say they had the resources but do you know that for a fact? It has been reported that only the mother worked, that the father had been unemployed since Jarred was a baby. One income does not go far in today's world.

I never said it was his parents. I said it's only his fault! He convinces people he is fine. That's the way they work. They ie and we beilve them. They are resonsible for themselves!

I don't think you understand bugger. If he is schizophrenic, responsible for himself is not even applicable. Don't get me wrong, in order to do this, he needs an ideology to go with the paranoia. Still, it isn't like he'd ever seek treatment for himself. Even if he did... he probably wouldn't be covered. What if he shot a family member of yours? Would you be so quick to say it was his fault for not seeking treatment?

You are so right. There isn't even a system to have cracks to fall through!

So are you Ok with a situation where if someone doesn't like you they just call the police, tell them that you are whacked out and they just put you in jail? It doesn't appear that you really have any experience at all in this area. What are you saying ? Are you one of those who is ready to abandon significant parts of the constitution - i.e. basic civil rights on a case by case basis - ?decided by who ? you ? Please become more informed before you launch these thoughtless attacks.

No, dumba**, it would require evidence. Don't put words in my mouth.

Your side believes every whack job has a "right" to do whatever they want, regardless of the danger to the community at large.

It doesn't require doing anything to the Constitution. That's a lie to claim that it would.

It would require the restraint of civil rights groups, who readily claim that half of US prisoners are innocent, and that constantly propose more legal loopholes that allow criminals to go free.

But do us a favor. Don't feign sympathy for the parents of the dead 9 year old when you make it clear that you believe Loughner , and those like him, have "rights that trump the safety of 9 year old girls.

Where did you get your information about the ACLU. From what I understand this stems from issues where people who could have functioned in society were lock up for long periods of time or even for life. There were horrible abuses in asylums where the patient had no civil rights. I'm not sure what you mean when you say It's "legitimate" because it's a product of the ACLU and liberal civil rights groups. I would love to hear how you would handle the mentally ill. Hell if you have a great suggestion manybe we could get most of the homeless off the street and treat all the people who can't afford medication.

Right... it's a lib problem, because libs want to have health care considered a right of anyone living. Clearly a failure of such a system is to be blamed on those who want to see such a system actualized, and not on those who want to eliminate it and give health care only to those who can pay corporations for what is essentially legal gambling on an individual person's health... and the house somehow has a right to win. Pffft.

Oh wow that's scary! I have a brother who is the same only no pilot's license. We lived in hell with him for several years. You're correct, there is nothing we can do to help them if they don't want to be helped or think they need to be.

I don't think that a change in the law would make it through the courts. Restrictive laws were challenged in federal court and declared unconsitutional.

I don't believe the statistics you're quoting, because I have had two murders, and two suicides by mentally ill people just in my family. All are not related adults. So, it wasn't genetic. I also have two mentally ill en-laws that acquired mental illness through drug use. You only hear about the famous ones, not the everyday families that are affected. I think we have an increase in mentally ill people committing violence due to drug abuse. It's just that they now end up either in jail, prison, or living under the bridge, (out-of sight, out of mind) instead of in hospitals, or out-treament where they belong.

Sorry for bursting your bubble, but "recovery" in a case of a schizophrenic is not really possible; "management" is the word to use. With treatment and MEDS some people suffering this horrible mental illness can have a semiproductive life and hold a job. Many linger in and out of a sort-of limbo state with the positive or negative signs of the disease. Also you say that there is a fear of being "stigmatized"? But mentally ill "are" already stigmatized because eventually anybody can tell if someone is acting weirdly! Even if the refuse to recognized their illness.

I entirely agree with the example presented in this article. My family went through the same experience with one of our loved ones, who refused treatment but we used "tough love" and were able to get the support of our State (Residential treatment, SSI, Medicaid and group homes. ) His illness has stabilized.

Well, the key to remember is treatment AND meds. Meds alone probably won't work, and it certainly won't work at the point that an individual simply stops taking meds.... for obvious reasons. Unfortunately, this is precisely the point where coverage becomes an issue.

Yes, yes, yes! Finally someone with a plan to do something, instead of just pointing fingers, and laying blame!

Police can't hold someone for "talking crazy" unless it included direct bodily threats. The actual answer lies in mental health reform.

When the ACLU and others fought to deinstitutionaliaze the mentally ill and shut down state mental hospitals they did it to gain freedom for those held within the hospitals.

Granted, mental hospitals had a lot of problems.

But we traded that for the mentally ill homeless and the mentally ill free in the community.

If you believe like many do here that a 9 year old girl's life is not too high a price to pay for that freedom, then so be it.

But quit trying to blame cost-cutting for the release of the mentally ill.

It was the ACLU and their supporters who shut down the large state run mental institutions, and anyone who knows anything knows that's the truth.

When mental health was deisitutionalized, which actually started with Kennedy, the intent was that there the care would be localized. There were to be community mental health centers, that were to be well funded, with all kinds of programs to help the mentall ill.

This never happened. The states thought this was a great thing because they could close there large insitutions which were costly. They saved money. The money to create and fund these local centers never came. You can blame both republicans and democrats.

I don't see the laws changing so it would be worth it, in my opinion, to start to fund and create these centers to help the mentally ill.

Yes the ACLU played a part but improving the observance of civil rights for the mentally ill and abandoning them to a flawed system with no supervision is two different things. The ACLU never advocated for unsupervised release of people that need supervision. That was conjured up by polititions that wanted to economize, and Reagan was the most prolific at cutting back and starving important programs. He absolutely refused to allow the federal study of Aids. Aids study started with Bush 1 because Reagan saw it as a biblical desease against gays. I was there. Today what passes for mental health treatment for the indigent is criminal.

Yes, it began with Ronald Regen. At the time, the mental health system was being used as a dumping ground for people that others just did not want around, whether they were mentally ill or not. In many cases, these inpatients were mistreated, abused, neglected and trapped in the system. Under Ronald Regen, the law was changed to require mental health patients to be in the least restrictive setting and, when appropriate, discharged, often to community-based care centers. Most mentally ill are NOT violent. For many of the mentally ill, small group homes and outpatient services are the perfect fit to their needs.

The problem was that cities, towns and counties failed to establish the community-based care centers. To the mentally ill, they said, "Not In My Back Yard!" They not only refused to build local mental health centers, but also used the building permitting process to prevent others from building them.

Many who are mentally ill have great difficulty in holding a job, especially one with health benefits. For this reason, the Federal government, through Medicaid and Medicare, will pay most of the cost for appropriate and medically necessary mental health services. Of course, you cannot run a business when only "most" of the operating costs are reimbursed; you need an additional source of funds to break even. State and local government was supposed to provide those funds.

Here, in Texas, we have the Mental Health Mental Retardation centers. These are community-based organizations, supported by the state government, that provide a range of mental health services. Years ago, we learned that it is better for the patient and cheaper to treat the mentally ill, than to wait until they have a crisis and do something which gets them locked up in a high-cost psychiatric hospital or a higher-cost prison.

Even if one is able to "connect the dots," what can a single person do? Call the police? Call mental health services? And then, what?

He is an adult. No one could force him to do anything. The police can't get involved unless he commits a crime.

No, but I had to bury my son, and two of his friends because a crazy person was released from prison, and not monitored. He was a felon, and paid someone to get a gun. Only the famous murders remain in the news. People are murdered every day in this country, but we only see a blip on the evening news for them, and then onto the next one. You don't hear from the families again because their lives are ruined.

I think that's a good idea.

And they would have been right.

What kind of natural therapies have cured schizophrenia or bi polar disorder? I'm bi polar and take medication. I've gone off it a few times with bad results where I ended up in the hospital. I go to a message board for people with schizophrenia and bi polar disorder. There are always people that come there trying to get people to get off medication and get on natural remedies. I know you're not promoting that or hope you aren't.

I am also an APRN, working in the mental health field since the 70's. I must respectfully disagree that homeopathic/alternative/natural (i.e. all "non-western" or "non-traditional") methods "cure" mental illness. This is an over-generalization, and I encourage you to clarify your information with empirical evidence.

I certainly support the use of natural remedies, and use them myself. However, they do not work the same way - or with the same effectiveness - for all people. They may work for mild-moderate depression or anxiety, but not for major mental illness. To call them a "cure" is misleading. It can also keep people from taking psychiatric medicines that can be of great benefit. Big Pharma aside, these medicines improve the quality of life for millions of people. If the Arizona shooter had the right meds, the paranoia that contributed to his heinous acts might have been prevented. In my opinion, no natural remedy would have been able to touch that level of mental illness.

In addition, the lack of regulation of herbs and supplements in the US (as opposed to Germany, for example, where they are highly regulated) means that we do not know the potency of the product, the purity, the expiration date, or the other compounds that might be included.

Everyone needs accurate information in order to make the right choices - for either natural or “alternative” remedies, and traditional or “western” medicine. If you are considering taking something for depression, read the science. Pay attention to evidence-based medicine. Read about herbal medicines in psychopharmacology texts, or have your provider interpret the science for you in plain English. Remember, whatever works, WORKS, regardless if it comes from the health food store or the pharmacy.

If you need help, get it. If someone you care about suggests you get help, please listen to him or her. They love you, and just want to see you get and stay well.

Cure schizophrenia? C'mon.. BS

Firstly, your posting being a nurse while then posting other credentials is sort of amusing. Not to mention a super fund reference when super fund sites are related to environmental clean up, not mental health. In any case, while I agree that cases of meds and no therapy are clearly not ideal, I'm sorry.... you just sounded totally fraudulent and vaporous.

If your son is already 18 he would qualify to get help from the State because he is no longer considered your dependent. He would only need to vouch for himself in order to get the services. Letting him go out to the streets (not sitting comfortable at your house) and suffering a bit out there in a homeless shelter for example would compel him to get the help he needs. Meaning, you want to stay home or in a group home... you take your meds!

What is your point? You've said he deserves to die and probably everyone here agrees with you.

I am all for Health Coverage for All... the problem is how do we find the resources to pay for it! We, as a country feel pity for others suffering in other parts of the world, and pour out money to help, but we are cruel when it comes to our own citizens.