Obama are you reading this article, if not, do so and don't spend that $27 billion on going digital. As a matter of fact: STOP SPENDING on any thing till we get back on our feet.
Shawn....I think that money is already out there. As a matter of convenience I love it when I can do my paperwork on line before an appointment. I also enjoy confirming appointments on line. Having said this I agree with you that at this point in the economy the Federal Government should not be throwing billions in for convenience sake.
As a point of medical concern...We should not reduce patient diagnosis to a response of a computer program either.
Yeah, Im thinking we can save the money on going digital, and just spend it on turning more Americans into physicians instead of importing them from nursing schools in India. Im sure this would have a much better impact on health care than "going digital" would. What good is "going digital" when the person entering the info, or making the diagnosis cant understand the information being presented anyway?
Actually, I thought that main focus of going digital was to lower Health Care costs. I don't remember increases in quality being a central plank. Besides, out of the entire Health Care Regression effort, this seems to be the only aspect that might actually save money. That is unless you prescribe solely to the "forecasts" of the CBO. By the way, what is the status of this effort? It was in the news daily after President Obama's Inauguration and then ... nothing...
Quite a bit of healthcare waste is for running tests that aren't needed. Electronic records will cut down on that.
Furthermore, having all records available will also allow analysis of unneeded tests, often tests that were conducted simply because the doctor had a brand new machine that he wants to use.
For folks who want the Federal government to "stop spending on everything until we get back on our feet" - you do realize that cutting spending will mean cutting jobs. That statement is equivalent to a CEO saying "we need to cut marketing until our sales improve."
As long as we are aware that - and okay with - decreasing spending will increase unemployment then let's do it.
Shawn... i have been working with EMR Systems for the last 3 year, and I can tell you, It works, we can send information from clinic to clinic with in seconds instead of faxing, it help reduce errors. it help reduce time for Patient, it help reduce cost, it does not yet eliminate most of the issues but improvement are being made everyday
They're forgetting the fact that Doctors, such as the case in emergency hospital visits, will instantly have full access to a patients medical history. Saving time, money, and lives with this resource. Besides it was an inevitability; soon all that isn't digital will be. Righties: What have we gained from trillions spent in the middle east? Are Iraqi friends are showing the love with daily Christian killings. Go Team.
I honestly doubt one of the most respected research facilities and hospitals in the country would actually "forget" that as a "fact" having said that I don't know that there is such a thing as the perfect study or perfect process.
First and foremost is patient privacy. Provided the patient is awake and aware enough, for emergency medical treatment, to give legal consent to access medical records and provided those records of all visits are under one clearing house it could possibly be effective if the attending physician wishes to trust the evaluation of an unknown Physician or their data entry staff.
How will an emergency care provider know where to go to access records from a specific cardiologist or oncologist? Even if they do know there is still the consent issue and further an specific record identifier. It is impractical to keep these records under a ss# as they are not truly secure. What happens if, unbeknown to a patient, a stranger sought care under their social and the medical records were counter to the true patients condition. Who holds the liability for patient care?
There are truly other issues that come to mind but this starts the discussion from a Rightie who sees no correlation between American Medical care and foreign wars. Multi-tasking is actually an American strong suit as long as the expended effort is reasonable.
Only if that person is a patient in the same healthcare system & has prior admits in the same hospital. Otherwise, it's just as bad a paper-with more order entry errors
From someone who has been around Hospitals all my life. And been intimately involved with the ED and Doctors, with treatment decisions on my wife.
Due to HIPAA a Doctor can face fines of $50,000+USD and up to 10+years in prisonfor accessing patient data. Due to this Doctors will not review prior records... I VERIFIED this when Doctors were prescribing duplicate TEST, that had been conducted less than 10+days prior. In the same Hospital and the same ED.
I had this discussion, when a Doctor was going to preform a DUPLICATE - pelvic/abdominal CT Scan, the first was 10+days prior. She had been scheduled by her Physician to have a CT Scan with Contrast the very NEXT DAY. This was to help diagnose reoccurring severe pain, without any known cause or history.
It turned out to be Clinical Depression, that was exacerbated by the ED prescribing Narcotics and Psychotic medications that had made her symptoms WORSE...
I word of CAUTION to ANYONE that has family. You need a Medical Power of Attorney for you family members. Otherwise the Medical Profession will BLOCK you from participating in Medical Decisions or treatment discussions concerning your loved ones...
AC Roberts...That is a wonderful point to bring up. Unfortunately, even a spouse, can be barred from supporting an ill partner fully by some of the over reaching CYA regulations.
I ran into this when my darling dear one was being treated for cancer. Things the DR cannot say while someone is in the room unless all the i are dotted and the t's crossed. Even trying to collect records for a spouse who is emotionally drained to preform a simple task is just a system of jumping through hoops. It used to be, in America, that marriage had purpose, it meant that you assumed some measure of responsibility and respect in shared lives.
You can thank your lawyer for that one. As the article pointed out there are a mulititude of medical record software in use throughout the Nation. It doesn't appear that none of it can be processed by the other either except for patient demographics. Privacy is also a concern as well. As the electronic record increases so does the Wikileaks scenario.
Must work for dentist's offices too! We were having problems, because of age, in getting to our then regular dentist who was 30 miles from our home and it had become a tiring journey so we decided sadly to change to a local dentist. We each of us had just had our mouth x-rayed by the first dentist at a cost of $180.00 each! When we saw the new dentist, you guessed it, he refused to even look at our 3 week old x-rays and took new ones of both of us at $180.00 each. In under a month it cost us $720.00 for x-rays, alone! Am looking now for another new dentist! No insurance we are self pay!
It is going to save papers (going green technology, e-file), save administrative costs, save cabinets/boxes/folders/rental places to keep records(papers), save pens/stamps/documentation, save stamps and opportunity being stolen, save time, ... at the end it is saving the rising of healthcare cost in terms of just one word, "saving".
Yes and no- IT infrastructure is expensive to maintain. Something like medical records which contain all of our most personal and private information is going to require a constant investment in security software and techs to try to stay one step ahead of hackers. The redundant systems that will be required to maintain the database come with a hefty price tag. The laptops issued to every doctor and nurse to tote with them into patient appointments is going to take some healthy abuse and need updating/replacing often. Training every time there is a software update is going to cost money because you can't afford to NOT train everyone when an error could cost someone their life. This isn't to say that going digital doesn't have many many advantages but there are new costs associated with going digital that are at least as high as the costs to maintain a paper system, maybe higher.
The 64 dollar question is: will these projected savings be passed on to the patient to lighten his/her financial burden or will it, as I suspect, go into the profit coffers since patient costs will still rise and so no benefit for them!
re saving paper: As a nurse in a hospital, I used to have all my patient info, for all 5 or 6 of my patients on a single sheet of paper. Now the computer spits out at least 5 pages per patient per shift. Someone at a local hospital said their paper use has increased by 12,000 [yes, twelve thousand] percent since they went electronic. [this includes things like the computer spitting out the lab results every time a single test is done rather than printing the results of the complete order on a single sheet of paper]
Somebody from your IT dept. needs to sit down with either you or someone like you with what I used to call front line knowledge and write the language needed to make our system do what it is designed to do and that is produce reports as required not the way originally programmed. Sound like a bunch of tweaking needs to be done. Computers and computer programs are tools nothing more and will only do what you want them to do but it looks as if someone has an outside interest in buying report paper!
The DOD went to electronic tracking of weapons systems maintenance actions during the early 1970s. The paper usage went through the roof.
During the 1980/90s there was a concerted effort to reduce the use of paper. The result was a EXTRA page added to reports telling the user, about the 'Paper Reduction' policy...
I have had care from the VA and more recently from Kaiser. The integrated systems are a wonder. Every doctor knows what medicines, what history, what injuries and what tests you have had. Each doctor knows your immunization, and doesn't waste time on duplicate questions. Appointments are centralized and much easier.
I seriously question the validity of the study's conclusion.
The system saves not only the doctor and/or office time, but the patient's too. You don't have to fill out medical history each Dr. you have to go to, which allows for errors as it is easy to forget to write the same info. It saves on duplication of tests and therefore saves the patient's time and expense. I have found Drs when I've advised I've had a certain test & result, the Dr. just says it's easier to have it done again so they can see the result - why?? It was the same result and a waste of my time, travel and another Dr. appointment with them.
One study touted by a journalist with probably limited medical education is enough to dissuade me that computerizing the healthcare industry won't save money and lives.
Can you imagine what everyone's work place would be like if we did not have computers for accounting, designing buildings, managing the controls systems in buildings, etc.... The health care side has not done enough to computerize and as a result we have multiple tests for the same thing being done by two different doctors, medicines prescribed that will cause negative reactions because someone forgot to list all the medicines they were taking.
If you happened to be a non-kaiser /non-va system patient in their system or vice versa you'd have an entirely different opinion of electronic medical records.
Amen, Peggy! Right now, very few systems "talk" to each other. That does nothing but cause MORE frustration and waste. I know firsthand, because I work in it EVERY DAY.
Of course it doesn't help the quality of health care, as changing format from paper to digital is not going to make a doctor better. As the article stated, even when combined with software that prompts the physician to perform a test or prescribe a drug, care does not improve as the prompts are ignored. Pay health care practitioners what they are worth so they do not have to see excessive numbers of patients per day to pay the bills and make a decent wage for themselves, and quality will improve. Look at the Cleveland Clinic health care system, where all doctors are salaried, and you will find they rated at the top. The system in this country has to change, not just the way care is documented.
There is no doubt in my mind that the digital records have saved tremendous amount of time, specially critical time in emergencies.
The old fashion way, all lab reports had to be on a slip, making their way to the patient floor (or doctor's office), and hopefully would be placed in patient's chart in time for their doctor to see it. So it goes with x-ray reports, MRI, Scans, Physical Therapy reports, Nurse's progress notes and specially consulation reports with specialists.
Here you have instant access to records, without asking Medical Records department to find the chart and send it up to you, and access to all test results as posted and available immediately.
There is no way the digital records and integrated records will ever go back to it's previous state. Ask your doctor.
There is indeed a standard for health records, known as HL7. At one time I had to adapt some medical billing software to this standard but in my opinion it is very messy to work with. I'm not even sure it is still a standard.
I now get health services from the VA and from a University health center. The VA has been on line for some time while the local University health complex is just going on line. These systems are really not well designed, for example the VA system lets the Physicians Assistants make appointments but doesn't force them to make a related lab appointment or otherwise indicate there is no lab required.
The VA system has an on-line service which lets you keep track of your own health and procedures, however you have to enter all the data yourself. It would be nice if the VA data could be downloaded but there are some serious security concerns, as indicated in the HIPAA specifications. My VA records did, however, become available to the VA folks here after a cross country move so they are, I believe, linked nation wide for the most part. I don't think my health care has improved at all as a result of this automation.
The University Health Center system may turn out to be O.K., and the doctor shows up in the exam room with a wifi laptop and enters data in it. In some cases, when my primary care doctor has ordered a test and included one he knows will be needed for a visit to another part of the facility, that other facility never checks to see whether the test results are available. My PCP has to FAX the test results across the street and a block down the road just to be sure they have the results.
The University system does have an external patient portal in which one can send notes to the doctor and recive responses- Only problem here is that the doctors still, after 2 years, are unable to easily send a response. They would rather call or send a FAX.
Time will tell but it's going to be a slow process. I have worked in Medical Records and Billing software design for 30+ years and only know of a very few instances where there was a gain in patient care. There are indeed great gains in billing efficiency.
VA system is extraordinarly cumbersome and based on code that is 30 years old. Has some aspects that are good, others are horrible. Used it for four years when I worked for the AF/VA venture.
You are correct. The VA system is cumbersome, unreadable and when printed out, it uses an incredible amt. of paper, which is what is sent to a doctor when he requests a vet's records.
Also, converting to electronic medical records is extremely expensive.
In addition, it is going to make it easier for someone who is unauthorized to get access to private records.
I help build electronic medical records computer applications. So, what is really the reason to put medical records in electronic form? Sure its 'cool' to be high tech and put the data in a computer and there are some nice functionalities available. But what really is the reason to bother to do that? I'll tell you, it is the ability to analyze the data in digital format. I can do a query on the information. I can look to see if patient medications were given on time. I can see if all patients with temps above 102 at admission and were given a culture and antibiotic within 2 hours of admission really had a shorter length of stay or not. If you put data in, we IS people can take it out and make it dance. If you ask an intellegent question that is quantifiable we can help you see the answer. No more guessing did that work, you can see with concrete data. And THAT is where electronic medical records make sense.
The sole purpose for this push for online healthcare data is so the companies that maintain it, like equifax, etc. can sell your personal health information to insurance companies, and credit rating companies, and potential employers, landlords, and anyone who wants to pay the price. Application forms will have release forms just like the credit info release forms. If you don't give them permission to look at your health data, then no go. You will lose control of your health care data, just like you lost control of your financial information. This was lobbied into the law by all the companies that want access to your health information. It had nothing to do with better health care.
Really? Nothing? You set in the boardrooms? All of those diverse groups have formed a secret coalition? Maybe the tri-partite commission is doing it?
Get a grip. Yes, it could be used that way. Privacy is well addressed in the law, and people using data in that fashion would be incredibly vulnerable to lawsuits.
They are trying to make a system. We have great healthcare, just not a system. The people before you made great points, and obviously knew a great deal about the problem. You seem to be just spouting for effect. Of course, I paid attention--which will encourage you.
If you put data in, we IS people can take it out and make it dance.
And there's the rub. I work in the legal field and we have a fantastic case management program that does the same thing. The problem I have is getting people to put the information IN! And doctors are a lot like lawyers in my experience- the young ones will adapt to the new technology and look for new ways to make it work for them while the "old dogs" will fight it at every step. Going to take a long time before we achieve full integration of records.
Ultimately the medical community will go digital without government money or encouragement as it will help to contain costs. Improvement in the quality of health care through digital patient records was never the promise to begin with - at least so far as I recall.
What this country desperately needs is more primary care physicians. Simply converting all patient records to digital form is NOT going to increase the number of doctors. Nobody ever chose to go or not go to medical school based upon record keeping.
1- make insurance available and affordable to everyone
2- have doctors actually spend more than 5 minutes with their patients
3- stop requiring people to change insurances and doctors every time they change a job so they can actually build up and keep a relationship going with a doctor.
Improved patient health-care is a misnomer here because patient health-care is in the capable hands of the nursing staffs of the hospitals. What will improve though will be the doctor's instructions to them since the nurses will no longer be forced to try to decipher the doctor's handwriting which I would bet the farm has caused more than one problem for the patient and thus the hospital. Get more nurses and cut down the burden that they are forced to carry and watch for an improvement then! Nurses GOOD!! Doctors QUESTIONABLE??
FINALLY! Someone with some sense! Docs breeze through for maybe 5 minutes, slap some henscratch down on some paper, and we nurses are left to do the best we can to do what he's ordered while caring for double to load of patients we should be. Most good or bad experiences reported really boil down to what happened with the bedside, hands on care. You can do horrible, painful things to people while doing it kindly and with respect, and it "goes down" a whole lot better. Who is it who makes sure that happens? Us lowly nurses. BUT! With this healthcare "reform", the nurse is supposed to be stronger than ever! That tells me that we will have more responsibility and no more pay....ya know, in order to contain costs! Be nice to your nurse....we keep your doctors from killing you!
So, since there is no positive effect on the quality of care provided, it seems that there are only disadvantages to putting health care information on line. Unscrupulous hackers, insurance companies, employers, and even government agencies could possibly have access to and use this information against people without all the hassle of breaking and entering into a secure filing office.
Imagine a potential employer having access to medical records indicating you have a family history of mental illness, or cancer, or high blood pressure and comparing it to the other applicant who doesnt have this in their record. Or a hacker who finds out you have AIDS and emails it to family and friends to ruin their reputation - especially if the person is a public figure.
This information won't be much safer than our credit card numbers, but much more potentially damaging.
The time period they are looking at is when Electronic Records were just coming of age and not in widespread use. The products have changed and their ability has changed. I have more actionable data available more rapidly than could ever be possible in a paper chart. Want to run a report to see which patient needs to be notified of a medication recall...done. Want to know which diabetic patients have had an eye exam...done. Want to know the population that needs a mammogram...done. A paper chart cannot compete. Period.
Then they are using the wrong EHR. The system should be intuitive, make sure all charts are online and available, all orders, notes and summaries are accomplished online, and it is designed so that its patient care first and foremost. Not billing and costs.
I used to implement EHRs, and this report must be from Physicians that are resistant to using the EHR. I used to hear from Docs that "I'm a Doctor, not a clerk". You're right, you're not. But, give the EHR a chance and it is a great tool in treating patients.
In addition to my last post. If someone comes in and says they are going implement you a computer system and it will save work and money. Run them out because they are lying to you.
Its more than quadrupled my documentation time=less time with patients & more stress for everyone. What used to take 10 minutes now takes an hour. And that's when the system's up
My wife is a nurse at a general practice. She was not a computer user, except for online searching/ordering, and e-mail. So it was with some trepidation that she trained for the introduction of EMR. She has been with it for over two years and loves it. The main advantage is improved workflow. Information is recorded and passed to and from the caregivers, with a record of who did what when, and with what authority. When a patient calls in with a question, it is easy to respond with the most current data and to record problems/responses electronically. No longer is time wasted looking for “lost” or misfiled records. Throughout the day it is easy to see what remains to be completed, calls made, prescriptions sent (electronically) for each patient in the practice. Good ridance to yellow post-it notes on patient charts.
I cannot judge if patients health is affected through the use of EMR, but it surely improves patient care.
From someone who uses them every day, EHRs are a mixed bag
ADVANTAGES
Legible notes, legible notes, and legible notes. This is the best thing I can think of when it comes to EHR use.
DISADVANTAGES
It takes me an extra 45 minutes to an hour a day just to do all of my notes well. Just because they're legible doesn't mean that the information in them is worthwhile. Plus, many of these EHRs have 'dropdown' menus and templates that build your note as you create it. It's a royal pain in the a** to do sometimes because not everyone presents with a problem that fits perfectly into a prebuilt template. So, you build notes on the fly which takes longer because you're typing your thoughts in. I've read other physician's notes where they just cut and paste the previous note without really changing anything, and that's a legal disaster waiting to happen. Dictation is still the way many specialists go, because you can dictate way faster than you can type (most of us, anyway). My only saving grace is I took typing in high school, and it's the only saving grace that's kept me ahead of the game so far.
Not all EHRs talk to each other. When I get a new patient, I have to start from scratch. Even if another physician's office uses the same EHR, you can't just upload the file into the program. You literally have to start over again. That's frustrating for me and for patients.
If your IT infrastructure goes down, you're screwed.
It costs money for upkeep on an annual basis. Gotta pay for an IT guy, gotta buy computers for every exam room and replace them every so often, and gotta pay for the annual license for the program. More expensive than buying pen and paper.
And having said all that I"m heading back now to finish my last few notes of the day. They've got limitations, but man it's a helluva lot better than reading the last doctor's chicken scratch trying to figure it out.
I would also add the potential for a Wikileaks scenario as well. I could envision hackers trying to access patient data for profit in certain instances.
"The push is largely based on the assumption that moving to electronic from paper records will improve communication and reduce medical errors. But that may not be so."
The government has to get off its butt and make it a LAW that all EMR systems have to be able to communicate with each other. Period. We have two hospitals in our town and two major physician groups. NONE of them can communicate with each other, even though they all have EMR. What is the point of having electronic records and computers that allow retrieval 24/7, when they can't even talk with each other? This is just stupid! And REALLY bad, VERY expensive patient care, since there is a lot of duplication of care, delay in treating what is already known, etc.
If someone comes from out of state: forget it! Start from scratch, reinvent the wheel, get that $3000 MRI you don't need. If the government wants to save money, then they need to suck it up and make it a law that all EMS's HAVE TO BE COMPATIBLE WITH EACH OTHER!!! End of story. This is not rocket science!
I've seen it work, with the Alaska Native Hospital in Anchorage, BUT, the right personnel have to be given access to the info, the time to review it, and the right kind of team that will work together instead of waging turf wars (I am a pharmacist). If things stay like they are now (in the community, for example) and the different professions involved in health care don't work together and respect each others' specialized educations, then it is not worth the bother. Seriously.
General Electric Corporation is heavily invested in the marketing of digital records to the the health industry. Along, with Philips Electronics, GE is purchasing elder-care facilities in order to get the machines on properties.
Who wants every word that they say to a medical professional, on a computer for ALL to see? Insurance companies immediately read the notes and a patient no longer has any privacy.
Got a freckle on your chin? Note on record. Now, the insurance company will begin to have that freckled monitored to see if it will potentially become cancerous.
Won't be long before humans will be required to have their personal information inserted under the skin for a wand to just slide over and record history into the compute. We are way past "1984" and the world is getting colder by the minute.
From a nurses standpoint. Many hours spent typing into a computer when admitting a patient. No eye contact during admission. Printed out records never get read. Giving report to another nurse is still verbal and always will be, a patients history is never black and white, everyone has shades of gray which is passed on verbally. It is an incredible waste of time in the department where I work. But I guess we all know that patient care is now way down the ladder compared to documentation. How sad.
When I'm doing notes in my office, I have to apologize to the patient for not looking in their eye when I'm doing my notes. Of course, when you type at 90 wpm like I do, it's fairly easy to do. But for many other physicians who don't have those typing skills it can be an extraordinarily cumbersome process. Using templates to create notes yield unwieldly documents that don't lend themselves to easy reading/processing.
Obama are you reading this article, if not, do so and don't spend that $27 billion on going digital. As a matter of fact: STOP SPENDING on any thing till we get back on our feet.
Shawn....I think that money is already out there. As a matter of convenience I love it when I can do my paperwork on line before an appointment. I also enjoy confirming appointments on line. Having said this I agree with you that at this point in the economy the Federal Government should not be throwing billions in for convenience sake.
As a point of medical concern...We should not reduce patient diagnosis to a response of a computer program either.
Yeah, Im thinking we can save the money on going digital, and just spend it on turning more Americans into physicians instead of importing them from nursing schools in India. Im sure this would have a much better impact on health care than "going digital" would. What good is "going digital" when the person entering the info, or making the diagnosis cant understand the information being presented anyway?
Actually, I thought that main focus of going digital was to lower Health Care costs. I don't remember increases in quality being a central plank. Besides, out of the entire Health Care Regression effort, this seems to be the only aspect that might actually save money. That is unless you prescribe solely to the "forecasts" of the CBO. By the way, what is the status of this effort? It was in the news daily after President Obama's Inauguration and then ... nothing...
"STOP SPENDING on any thing till we get back on our feet."
Yes. Including Iraq and Afghanistan, I presume.
Quite a bit of healthcare waste is for running tests that aren't needed. Electronic records will cut down on that.
Furthermore, having all records available will also allow analysis of unneeded tests, often tests that were conducted simply because the doctor had a brand new machine that he wants to use.
Way back when, the electronic medical records were going to LOWER Cost.
1. By faster IDENTIFICATION of new diseases and effective treatments.
2. Supply data to help control diseases from spreading.
3. To save time in processing Patient data.
4. To enable the transfer of medical records across state lines to new treatment facilities/Doctors.
Accomplishing ONE out of Four is not bad for the US Government...
But HIPAA regulations have almost KILLED that ONE...
The lastest mantra by the Medical Profession - We CAN NOT provide that information due to HIPAA
For folks who want the Federal government to "stop spending on everything until we get back on our feet" - you do realize that cutting spending will mean cutting jobs. That statement is equivalent to a CEO saying "we need to cut marketing until our sales improve."
As long as we are aware that - and okay with - decreasing spending will increase unemployment then let's do it.
yeah it means the too many government workers have to get real jobs
Shawn... i have been working with EMR Systems for the last 3 year, and I can tell you, It works, we can send information from clinic to clinic with in seconds instead of faxing, it help reduce errors. it help reduce time for Patient, it help reduce cost, it does not yet eliminate most of the issues but improvement are being made everyday
They're forgetting the fact that Doctors, such as the case in emergency hospital visits, will instantly have full access to a patients medical history. Saving time, money, and lives with this resource. Besides it was an inevitability; soon all that isn't digital will be. Righties: What have we gained from trillions spent in the middle east? Are Iraqi friends are showing the love with daily Christian killings. Go Team.
x
King of zed
I honestly doubt one of the most respected research facilities and hospitals in the country would actually "forget" that as a "fact" having said that I don't know that there is such a thing as the perfect study or perfect process.
First and foremost is patient privacy. Provided the patient is awake and aware enough, for emergency medical treatment, to give legal consent to access medical records and provided those records of all visits are under one clearing house it could possibly be effective if the attending physician wishes to trust the evaluation of an unknown Physician or their data entry staff.
How will an emergency care provider know where to go to access records from a specific cardiologist or oncologist? Even if they do know there is still the consent issue and further an specific record identifier. It is impractical to keep these records under a ss# as they are not truly secure. What happens if, unbeknown to a patient, a stranger sought care under their social and the medical records were counter to the true patients condition. Who holds the liability for patient care?
There are truly other issues that come to mind but this starts the discussion from a Rightie who sees no correlation between American Medical care and foreign wars. Multi-tasking is actually an American strong suit as long as the expended effort is reasonable.
Only if that person is a patient in the same healthcare system & has prior admits in the same hospital. Otherwise, it's just as bad a paper-with more order entry errors
From someone who has been around Hospitals all my life. And been intimately involved with the ED and Doctors, with treatment decisions on my wife.
Due to HIPAA a Doctor can face fines of $50,000+USD and up to 10+years in prisonfor accessing patient data. Due to this Doctors will not review prior records... I VERIFIED this when Doctors were prescribing duplicate TEST, that had been conducted less than 10+days prior. In the same Hospital and the same ED.
I had this discussion, when a Doctor was going to preform a DUPLICATE - pelvic/abdominal CT Scan, the first was 10+days prior. She had been scheduled by her Physician to have a CT Scan with Contrast the very NEXT DAY. This was to help diagnose reoccurring severe pain, without any known cause or history.
It turned out to be Clinical Depression, that was exacerbated by the ED prescribing Narcotics and Psychotic medications that had made her symptoms WORSE...
I word of CAUTION to ANYONE that has family. You need a Medical Power of Attorney for you family members. Otherwise the Medical Profession will BLOCK you from participating in Medical Decisions or treatment discussions concerning your loved ones...
AC Roberts...That is a wonderful point to bring up. Unfortunately, even a spouse, can be barred from supporting an ill partner fully by some of the over reaching CYA regulations.
I ran into this when my darling dear one was being treated for cancer. Things the DR cannot say while someone is in the room unless all the i are dotted and the t's crossed. Even trying to collect records for a spouse who is emotionally drained to preform a simple task is just a system of jumping through hoops. It used to be, in America, that marriage had purpose, it meant that you assumed some measure of responsibility and respect in shared lives.
You can thank your lawyer for that one. As the article pointed out there are a mulititude of medical record software in use throughout the Nation. It doesn't appear that none of it can be processed by the other either except for patient demographics. Privacy is also a concern as well. As the electronic record increases so does the Wikileaks scenario.
Must work for dentist's offices too! We were having problems, because of age, in getting to our then regular dentist who was 30 miles from our home and it had become a tiring journey so we decided sadly to change to a local dentist. We each of us had just had our mouth x-rayed by the first dentist at a cost of $180.00 each! When we saw the new dentist, you guessed it, he refused to even look at our 3 week old x-rays and took new ones of both of us at $180.00 each. In under a month it cost us $720.00 for x-rays, alone! Am looking now for another new dentist! No insurance we are self pay!
It is going to save papers (going green technology, e-file), save administrative costs, save cabinets/boxes/folders/rental places to keep records(papers), save pens/stamps/documentation, save stamps and opportunity being stolen, save time, ... at the end it is saving the rising of healthcare cost in terms of just one word, "saving".
Yes and no- IT infrastructure is expensive to maintain. Something like medical records which contain all of our most personal and private information is going to require a constant investment in security software and techs to try to stay one step ahead of hackers. The redundant systems that will be required to maintain the database come with a hefty price tag. The laptops issued to every doctor and nurse to tote with them into patient appointments is going to take some healthy abuse and need updating/replacing often. Training every time there is a software update is going to cost money because you can't afford to NOT train everyone when an error could cost someone their life. This isn't to say that going digital doesn't have many many advantages but there are new costs associated with going digital that are at least as high as the costs to maintain a paper system, maybe higher.
The 64 dollar question is: will these projected savings be passed on to the patient to lighten his/her financial burden or will it, as I suspect, go into the profit coffers since patient costs will still rise and so no benefit for them!
re saving paper: As a nurse in a hospital, I used to have all my patient info, for all 5 or 6 of my patients on a single sheet of paper. Now the computer spits out at least 5 pages per patient per shift. Someone at a local hospital said their paper use has increased by 12,000 [yes, twelve thousand] percent since they went electronic. [this includes things like the computer spitting out the lab results every time a single test is done rather than printing the results of the complete order on a single sheet of paper]
Somebody from your IT dept. needs to sit down with either you or someone like you with what I used to call front line knowledge and write the language needed to make our system do what it is designed to do and that is produce reports as required not the way originally programmed. Sound like a bunch of tweaking needs to be done. Computers and computer programs are tools nothing more and will only do what you want them to do but it looks as if someone has an outside interest in buying report paper!
The DOD went to electronic tracking of weapons systems maintenance actions during the early 1970s. The paper usage went through the roof.
During the 1980/90s there was a concerted effort to reduce the use of paper. The result was a EXTRA page added to reports telling the user, about the 'Paper Reduction' policy...
I have had care from the VA and more recently from Kaiser. The integrated systems are a wonder. Every doctor knows what medicines, what history, what injuries and what tests you have had. Each doctor knows your immunization, and doesn't waste time on duplicate questions. Appointments are centralized and much easier.
I seriously question the validity of the study's conclusion.
The system saves not only the doctor and/or office time, but the patient's too. You don't have to fill out medical history each Dr. you have to go to, which allows for errors as it is easy to forget to write the same info. It saves on duplication of tests and therefore saves the patient's time and expense. I have found Drs when I've advised I've had a certain test & result, the Dr. just says it's easier to have it done again so they can see the result - why?? It was the same result and a waste of my time, travel and another Dr. appointment with them.
Exactly my experience. No duplicate tests.
One study touted by a journalist with probably limited medical education is enough to dissuade me that computerizing the healthcare industry won't save money and lives.
Can you imagine what everyone's work place would be like if we did not have computers for accounting, designing buildings, managing the controls systems in buildings, etc.... The health care side has not done enough to computerize and as a result we have multiple tests for the same thing being done by two different doctors, medicines prescribed that will cause negative reactions because someone forgot to list all the medicines they were taking.
If you happened to be a non-kaiser /non-va system patient in their system or vice versa you'd have an entirely different opinion of electronic medical records.
Amen, Peggy! Right now, very few systems "talk" to each other. That does nothing but cause MORE frustration and waste. I know firsthand, because I work in it EVERY DAY.
Of course it doesn't help the quality of health care, as changing format from paper to digital is not going to make a doctor better. As the article stated, even when combined with software that prompts the physician to perform a test or prescribe a drug, care does not improve as the prompts are ignored. Pay health care practitioners what they are worth so they do not have to see excessive numbers of patients per day to pay the bills and make a decent wage for themselves, and quality will improve. Look at the Cleveland Clinic health care system, where all doctors are salaried, and you will find they rated at the top. The system in this country has to change, not just the way care is documented.
There is no doubt in my mind that the digital records have saved tremendous amount of time, specially critical time in emergencies.
The old fashion way, all lab reports had to be on a slip, making their way to the patient floor (or doctor's office), and hopefully would be placed in patient's chart in time for their doctor to see it. So it goes with x-ray reports, MRI, Scans, Physical Therapy reports, Nurse's progress notes and specially consulation reports with specialists.
Here you have instant access to records, without asking Medical Records department to find the chart and send it up to you, and access to all test results as posted and available immediately.
There is no way the digital records and integrated records will ever go back to it's previous state. Ask your doctor.
There is indeed a standard for health records, known as HL7. At one time I had to adapt some medical billing software to this standard but in my opinion it is very messy to work with. I'm not even sure it is still a standard.
I now get health services from the VA and from a University health center. The VA has been on line for some time while the local University health complex is just going on line. These systems are really not well designed, for example the VA system lets the Physicians Assistants make appointments but doesn't force them to make a related lab appointment or otherwise indicate there is no lab required.
The VA system has an on-line service which lets you keep track of your own health and procedures, however you have to enter all the data yourself. It would be nice if the VA data could be downloaded but there are some serious security concerns, as indicated in the HIPAA specifications. My VA records did, however, become available to the VA folks here after a cross country move so they are, I believe, linked nation wide for the most part. I don't think my health care has improved at all as a result of this automation.
The University Health Center system may turn out to be O.K., and the doctor shows up in the exam room with a wifi laptop and enters data in it. In some cases, when my primary care doctor has ordered a test and included one he knows will be needed for a visit to another part of the facility, that other facility never checks to see whether the test results are available. My PCP has to FAX the test results across the street and a block down the road just to be sure they have the results.
The University system does have an external patient portal in which one can send notes to the doctor and recive responses- Only problem here is that the doctors still, after 2 years, are unable to easily send a response. They would rather call or send a FAX.
Time will tell but it's going to be a slow process. I have worked in Medical Records and Billing software design for 30+ years and only know of a very few instances where there was a gain in patient care. There are indeed great gains in billing efficiency.
VA system is extraordinarly cumbersome and based on code that is 30 years old. Has some aspects that are good, others are horrible. Used it for four years when I worked for the AF/VA venture.
You are correct. The VA system is cumbersome, unreadable and when printed out, it uses an incredible amt. of paper, which is what is sent to a doctor when he requests a vet's records.
Also, converting to electronic medical records is extremely expensive.
In addition, it is going to make it easier for someone who is unauthorized to get access to private records.
I help build electronic medical records computer applications. So, what is really the reason to put medical records in electronic form? Sure its 'cool' to be high tech and put the data in a computer and there are some nice functionalities available. But what really is the reason to bother to do that? I'll tell you, it is the ability to analyze the data in digital format. I can do a query on the information. I can look to see if patient medications were given on time. I can see if all patients with temps above 102 at admission and were given a culture and antibiotic within 2 hours of admission really had a shorter length of stay or not. If you put data in, we IS people can take it out and make it dance. If you ask an intellegent question that is quantifiable we can help you see the answer. No more guessing did that work, you can see with concrete data. And THAT is where electronic medical records make sense.
The sole purpose for this push for online healthcare data is so the companies that maintain it, like equifax, etc. can sell your personal health information to insurance companies, and credit rating companies, and potential employers, landlords, and anyone who wants to pay the price. Application forms will have release forms just like the credit info release forms. If you don't give them permission to look at your health data, then no go. You will lose control of your health care data, just like you lost control of your financial information. This was lobbied into the law by all the companies that want access to your health information. It had nothing to do with better health care.
Really? Nothing? You set in the boardrooms? All of those diverse groups have formed a secret coalition? Maybe the tri-partite commission is doing it?
Get a grip. Yes, it could be used that way. Privacy is well addressed in the law, and people using data in that fashion would be incredibly vulnerable to lawsuits.
They are trying to make a system. We have great healthcare, just not a system. The people before you made great points, and obviously knew a great deal about the problem. You seem to be just spouting for effect. Of course, I paid attention--which will encourage you.
And there's the rub. I work in the legal field and we have a fantastic case management program that does the same thing. The problem I have is getting people to put the information IN! And doctors are a lot like lawyers in my experience- the young ones will adapt to the new technology and look for new ways to make it work for them while the "old dogs" will fight it at every step. Going to take a long time before we achieve full integration of records.
Ultimately the medical community will go digital without government money or encouragement as it will help to contain costs. Improvement in the quality of health care through digital patient records was never the promise to begin with - at least so far as I recall.
What this country desperately needs is more primary care physicians. Simply converting all patient records to digital form is NOT going to increase the number of doctors. Nobody ever chose to go or not go to medical school based upon record keeping.
Simple easy steps to improve health care
1- make insurance available and affordable to everyone
2- have doctors actually spend more than 5 minutes with their patients
3- stop requiring people to change insurances and doctors every time they change a job so they can actually build up and keep a relationship going with a doctor.
4- make health care itself affordable
Improved patient health-care is a misnomer here because patient health-care is in the capable hands of the nursing staffs of the hospitals. What will improve though will be the doctor's instructions to them since the nurses will no longer be forced to try to decipher the doctor's handwriting which I would bet the farm has caused more than one problem for the patient and thus the hospital. Get more nurses and cut down the burden that they are forced to carry and watch for an improvement then! Nurses GOOD!! Doctors QUESTIONABLE??
FINALLY! Someone with some sense! Docs breeze through for maybe 5 minutes, slap some henscratch down on some paper, and we nurses are left to do the best we can to do what he's ordered while caring for double to load of patients we should be. Most good or bad experiences reported really boil down to what happened with the bedside, hands on care. You can do horrible, painful things to people while doing it kindly and with respect, and it "goes down" a whole lot better. Who is it who makes sure that happens? Us lowly nurses. BUT! With this healthcare "reform", the nurse is supposed to be stronger than ever! That tells me that we will have more responsibility and no more pay....ya know, in order to contain costs! Be nice to your nurse....we keep your doctors from killing you!
So, since there is no positive effect on the quality of care provided, it seems that there are only disadvantages to putting health care information on line. Unscrupulous hackers, insurance companies, employers, and even government agencies could possibly have access to and use this information against people without all the hassle of breaking and entering into a secure filing office.
Imagine a potential employer having access to medical records indicating you have a family history of mental illness, or cancer, or high blood pressure and comparing it to the other applicant who doesnt have this in their record. Or a hacker who finds out you have AIDS and emails it to family and friends to ruin their reputation - especially if the person is a public figure.
This information won't be much safer than our credit card numbers, but much more potentially damaging.
The time period they are looking at is when Electronic Records were just coming of age and not in widespread use. The products have changed and their ability has changed. I have more actionable data available more rapidly than could ever be possible in a paper chart. Want to run a report to see which patient needs to be notified of a medication recall...done. Want to know which diabetic patients have had an eye exam...done. Want to know the population that needs a mammogram...done. A paper chart cannot compete. Period.
Hey wasn't that the main excuse for the whole health care bill, the magic paperless system that will solve all problems.
Then they are using the wrong EHR. The system should be intuitive, make sure all charts are online and available, all orders, notes and summaries are accomplished online, and it is designed so that its patient care first and foremost. Not billing and costs.
I used to implement EHRs, and this report must be from Physicians that are resistant to using the EHR. I used to hear from Docs that "I'm a Doctor, not a clerk". You're right, you're not. But, give the EHR a chance and it is a great tool in treating patients.
In addition to my last post. If someone comes in and says they are going implement you a computer system and it will save work and money. Run them out because they are lying to you.
Amen. It's added at least an hour to my day workload wise.
Its more than quadrupled my documentation time=less time with patients & more stress for everyone. What used to take 10 minutes now takes an hour. And that's when the system's up
My wife is a nurse at a general practice. She was not a computer user, except for online searching/ordering, and e-mail. So it was with some trepidation that she trained for the introduction of EMR. She has been with it for over two years and loves it. The main advantage is improved workflow. Information is recorded and passed to and from the caregivers, with a record of who did what when, and with what authority. When a patient calls in with a question, it is easy to respond with the most current data and to record problems/responses electronically. No longer is time wasted looking for “lost” or misfiled records. Throughout the day it is easy to see what remains to be completed, calls made, prescriptions sent (electronically) for each patient in the practice. Good ridance to yellow post-it notes on patient charts.
I cannot judge if patients health is affected through the use of EMR, but it surely improves patient care.
From someone who uses them every day, EHRs are a mixed bag
ADVANTAGES
Legible notes, legible notes, and legible notes. This is the best thing I can think of when it comes to EHR use.
DISADVANTAGES
It takes me an extra 45 minutes to an hour a day just to do all of my notes well. Just because they're legible doesn't mean that the information in them is worthwhile. Plus, many of these EHRs have 'dropdown' menus and templates that build your note as you create it. It's a royal pain in the a** to do sometimes because not everyone presents with a problem that fits perfectly into a prebuilt template. So, you build notes on the fly which takes longer because you're typing your thoughts in. I've read other physician's notes where they just cut and paste the previous note without really changing anything, and that's a legal disaster waiting to happen. Dictation is still the way many specialists go, because you can dictate way faster than you can type (most of us, anyway). My only saving grace is I took typing in high school, and it's the only saving grace that's kept me ahead of the game so far.
Not all EHRs talk to each other. When I get a new patient, I have to start from scratch. Even if another physician's office uses the same EHR, you can't just upload the file into the program. You literally have to start over again. That's frustrating for me and for patients.
If your IT infrastructure goes down, you're screwed.
It costs money for upkeep on an annual basis. Gotta pay for an IT guy, gotta buy computers for every exam room and replace them every so often, and gotta pay for the annual license for the program. More expensive than buying pen and paper.
And having said all that I"m heading back now to finish my last few notes of the day. They've got limitations, but man it's a helluva lot better than reading the last doctor's chicken scratch trying to figure it out.
I would also add the potential for a Wikileaks scenario as well. I could envision hackers trying to access patient data for profit in certain instances.
I was just referring to the daily workload changes, hadn't even scraped the surface on hackers and such.
"The push is largely based on the assumption that moving to electronic from paper records will improve communication and reduce medical errors. But that may not be so."
The government has to get off its butt and make it a LAW that all EMR systems have to be able to communicate with each other. Period. We have two hospitals in our town and two major physician groups. NONE of them can communicate with each other, even though they all have EMR. What is the point of having electronic records and computers that allow retrieval 24/7, when they can't even talk with each other? This is just stupid! And REALLY bad, VERY expensive patient care, since there is a lot of duplication of care, delay in treating what is already known, etc.
If someone comes from out of state: forget it! Start from scratch, reinvent the wheel, get that $3000 MRI you don't need. If the government wants to save money, then they need to suck it up and make it a law that all EMS's HAVE TO BE COMPATIBLE WITH EACH OTHER!!! End of story. This is not rocket science!
I've seen it work, with the Alaska Native Hospital in Anchorage, BUT, the right personnel have to be given access to the info, the time to review it, and the right kind of team that will work together instead of waging turf wars (I am a pharmacist). If things stay like they are now (in the community, for example) and the different professions involved in health care don't work together and respect each others' specialized educations, then it is not worth the bother. Seriously.
Direct quote from the article ....
"Electronic health records systems that include this software have been shown in other studies to significantly improve health quality."
so how is this ONE study relevent?
slow news day?
General Electric Corporation is heavily invested in the marketing of digital records to the the health industry. Along, with Philips Electronics, GE is purchasing elder-care facilities in order to get the machines on properties.
Who wants every word that they say to a medical professional, on a computer for ALL to see? Insurance companies immediately read the notes and a patient no longer has any privacy.
Got a freckle on your chin? Note on record. Now, the insurance company will begin to have that freckled monitored to see if it will potentially become cancerous.
Won't be long before humans will be required to have their personal information inserted under the skin for a wand to just slide over and record history into the compute. We are way past "1984" and the world is getting colder by the minute.
From a nurses standpoint. Many hours spent typing into a computer when admitting a patient. No eye contact during admission. Printed out records never get read. Giving report to another nurse is still verbal and always will be, a patients history is never black and white, everyone has shades of gray which is passed on verbally. It is an incredible waste of time in the department where I work. But I guess we all know that patient care is now way down the ladder compared to documentation. How sad.
When I'm doing notes in my office, I have to apologize to the patient for not looking in their eye when I'm doing my notes. Of course, when you type at 90 wpm like I do, it's fairly easy to do. But for many other physicians who don't have those typing skills it can be an extraordinarily cumbersome process. Using templates to create notes yield unwieldly documents that don't lend themselves to easy reading/processing.