Not for most of my patients. They go off Premarin to give black cohosh a shot, and then come back begging me to put them back on Premarin. I have them sign a form acknowledging that they are aware of the risks of hormone replacement therapy and they hold me harmless if any future adverse event were to rise from its prescribed use.

Arsenic's natural too, but you don't see people taking it.

both pose good points..........

however - when mother nature changes our bodies as we age you have pressume there is an organic reason. If women naturally decrease the amount of estrogen made as we age......maybe it's for an ultimate reason and we should listen to nature.

your patients try black cohosh then come back to you . well that's nice, however i have newsflash for ya there's more to natural HRT than just black cohosh.so maybe that's why your patients came back.they don't knlow the whole enchalada.

arsenic is natural too but it's poison so no if you have any smarts you wouldn't take it.that's been a given for years.

boston 7788 exactly!

RackNStack, I am a 49 year old woman, and just about 3 months ago, I started having SEVERE hot flashes day and night. Won't touch HRT, so I went out to Walmart and spent $10 on a month's supply of black cohosh and soy isoflavones. Take 80 mg. of each per day, and after two weeks of taking it, I had ZERO hot flashes. Two and a half monts later, I still have none! So it does work for some people! I should add, NO side effects for me either.

see RackNStack case by case basis!Congrats evanusk.

Have there been any scientific studies showing that black cohosh and soy isoflavones don't increase the risk of breast cancer? RackNStack's point was that just because something is natural, doesn't mean it's safe.

I get RackNStacks point about everything natural not being safe, but I'd rather take my chances using black cohosh and soy, since the phyto estrogens contained in them are weak estrogens, unlike the strong synthetic estrogens in HRT. I mean, Premarin is made from horse estrogen, Pregnant Mare Urine, get it? PRE-MAR-IN. That's whats in it. NO THANKS! I believe the studies so far on soy and black cohosh are still inconclusive, but some studies actually seemed to show that they may decrease the risk of some cancers. Others suggest that women who have had breast cancer might want to avoid soy, but one study even suggested that black cohosh may prevent the recurrence of breast cancer. In any case, I take a very low dose, so I'm not worried.

No RanNStank point was because it's natural it doesn't work. his or patients came back to him or her. RackNStack believes only the pharma way is gthe best. let's just call it as is.the natural method is thousands of years old. it worked then and gee it's seems to be working for a lot of women now, amazing. scientific studies aren't the answer to everything. it seems when they supposedly do a study 99% of the time the natural remedy doesn't work according to them. them is usually the pharma sponsering it. now what do you think they're going to say.oh Gee its a great natural product.ah No!

the problem with conventional medicine today is their attached at the hip with the pharma companies. a few doctors are starting to get their heads out of their backends and incorporate natural medicine along with conventional.it's a greatg mix if you know what the hell your doing.

Yes, I see that RackNStack said herbal remedies aren't reliable, and you're right, you can't make a blanket statement like that, although I do know there are some herbs that have proven to be dangerous. You just have to be well informed, use what works for you, and stay away from anything dangerous.

Gloria

I believe if big pharma were controlling the results of this particular study, they would not have been made public. How would they benefit from telling women to delay HRT?

Although there are unfortunately biases depending on funding, true scientific investigation goes to great lengths to remove or account for all biases, both in researchers and in study subjects. Research the scientific method.

I'll trust science. If it proves that herbal remedies are safe and effective, great. But I don't trust traditional knowledge from "a thousand years" ago, when most women didn't live long enough to see menopause.

And no, RackNStack did not say natural remedies don't work. S/he said they weren't proven or regulated. Not the same statement. Check post 4.2. I believe you wilfully misunderstand him/her because of your bias against science in general and the FDA in particular, which is evident in your comments on this and other articles.

Sandy you know what? you say potatoe and i say patatoe!there's alot things big pharma doesn't make public.

check post 4.2 where?i only see RanSTack's 1.1.i didn't misunderstand anything.

i still say RanStack poo pooh's natural remedies.in fact i can just bet RanStack knows just about diddly squat on natural remedies.oh and i still say the FDA is a large joke, and all scientific studies are not full proof.no i am not biased against science.science however is not infallible.in other words i don't put all my eggs in one basket.

i just bet you have a stake in pharma!

Nope, I have no horse in the race.

You're making assumptions about my alleged stake (or lack thereof) in pharmaceuticals, and about RackNStack's knowledge (or alleged lack thereof) of natural remedies. Incorrect assumptions are a poor way to prove a point.

Scroll down to find post 4.2. It was there before my last post, and is still visible as I type.

So pregnant mare's urine (premarin)------horse pee is the proper choice? yum gotta love big pharma and the docs that support them.

Both big pharma and the FDA have lied to the public---often not to mention the docs that promote their overpriced (in the US) drugs.

Remember fen-phen or was it phen-fen? Remember Viiox? Darvon was just pulled after years of issues the public wasn't aware of and those are the most recent instances of drugs that were approved despite indications they were killer drugs.

I'm betting that after the up and coming lawsuit the antibiotic levoquin will be pulled because it causes connective tissue disintegration in the young but especially in those of retirement age.

I never said anything in favor of Premarin, either. Remember, the article warned AGAINST early HRT. Quite frankly, the healthiest people I know are the ones who take the fewest medications, either natural or manufactured.

I'm with Boston - there is a reason for menopause. It prevents pregnancy from occurring in older women who are more likely to have a bad pregnancy outcome, such as preterm birth, birth defects, or even death of the child or mother. Also, we've known for years that women who start menstruation early have a higher risk of breast cancer, as do those who never have children or breastfeed. Why? Because of the longer time of exposure to estrogen, which is present in the body in much lower levels during pregnancy and breastfeeding. Many breast-cancers are estrogen-sensitive, and HRT increases the risk of those. Before I take a "natural" estrogen, I want to know it doesn't act in the same way.

Remember ephedra? It was finally pulled after years of deaths, despite the claims that it was natural and therefore was much less harmful than prescription drugs. At least once the problems come to light, the FDA can pull harmful manufactured drugs, and the pharma companies don't fight it. Ephedra manufacturers kept hiding behind the argument that ephedra was a supplement, insteading of admitting it was a drug and therefore subject to FDA control. They wanted to keep their dangerous product of the market. Doesn't that make them just as bad if not worse than pharmaceuticals companies?

Gloria F, you have made some very good points. Yes, there are non-prescription things that can be used for symptomatic relief of a lot of problems. Estrogen is harmful to a lot of women and strong consideration should be given to using alternatives.

However, it is not necessary to respond to someone elses comments with name calling and insults. Don't think that your excuse about "the misspelling are an error and it wasn't purposefully done" is believable. You can make a valid point without being obnoxious. BE NICE. You can be passionate about your beliefs without being insulting.

I've been off it and on it(HRT). I can't sleep, can't show emotions much and just plain feel like crap off it. The natural I did try, one worked and, of course(if I like a product it's the kiss of death for it, it seems) they took off the market. Was an a.m./p.m. sort of thing. But my dr. put me on Prometrium/estradiol instead of Prempro and that has been just fine. Here's hoping, I've been on this stuff for over 10 years with brief "vacations" with the herbs concoctions.

well then your welcome!

Herbal remedies would be fine were they reliable. The problem is there is no regulatory agency in this country overseeing their manufacturing process and there's not a single controlled study out there that shows "natural remedies" are effective for the relief of menopausal symptoms. Plenty of advertisements claiming it, but no hard proof. Now, if people feel better on it, then good for them. However, most women that I've treated tell me the difference on Premarin (or Estradiol, or whatever other ones are out there) is like night and day. it has probably saved many a marriage, and dead husbands buried in the backyard.

I commented earlier, Suse the Muse, and I totally agree. I like my Premarin and I have talked about it with my doctors often over the past nine years and feel I am also making an informed choice. I had a hysterectomy about ten years prior to starting and had actually been in the breast cancer research study taking Tamoxifen before that. I have my ovaries, but I think they had all but turned to raisins when I started the Premarin. I feel good, I look decent, I am generally healthy. My two younger sisters are both on antidepressants as is one of my very best friends, all three not taking Premarin. I accept that there may be risks, but for me, it is quality of life versus quantity. I am also still working and plan to continue to age 66.

excuse me but herbal remedies are reliable, it depends on how you use them..there's no proof to say they don't work. i don 't care about the FDA, and them regulating it and their word on it.they couldn't regulate cat food. if you people want to believe in all they tell you, then by all means knock yourselves out. it's your decision not mine.so unless you're an expert in both natural and the conventional way of HRT you have no idea what the hell your talking about.

bottom line people nobody really knows the side effects of this stuff.not you not me not the FDA. i don't care what they tell you. they've lied in the past and they'll lie again in the future. in fact people they're in the Pharma's back pockets, whether you believe it or not.so if of i were anyone i'd keep my expertise to my self.

okay i see it.the first sentence,herbs would be fine if they were reliable.my post4.4 says they are reliabelk. it depends on the individual, taking them. i say RanStank doesn't know squat when it comes to herbal medicine.why doesn't RanStank talk to other doctors who are both into naturpathic and conventional medicine combined.oh and yes they are out there.

then RanStank can come back and give a real opinion.right now, it doesn 't float!

Still making assumptions.

And deliberately misspelling his/her name. How mature, and really supportive of your position.

Sandy when it come to immaturity, people like you are at the top of list.by trying to prove your point you are not infallible,and this RanStack is not either.just because somebodies name says Doctor on it doesn't make them the most intelligent person in the world. try to absorb one thing. it's not the title or degree you gain for yourself, it's how you conduct yourself with it and the person behind it.. RanStack is closed minded.there's no way but his or her way.again i have a news flash, for people like this,there's other ways of doing things also.

the mispellings are an error and it wasn't purposely done. i was typing so fast i didn't bother to spell check. i don't know this RanStack. so personally i have nothing against them except a difference of opinion.

Yes, the misspelling was an error. One that you repeated in this post, and several others. I'm sure everyone here believes that. In my experience, name-calling starts when one realized that one's position is weak, and is aware that name-calling is the only thing left in one's arsenal.

And RackNStack isn't opposed to all herbals, and has no problem with them when they work, as expressed in his/her post. You're still deciding that you are more knowledgeable about RackNStack's position and education than you actually are. You are also assuming RackNStack is a doctor, when s/he may in fact be a nurse practitioner or physician assistant, both of whom are licensed to prescribe.

Herbals are part of medical school curricula. Drug manuals discuss herbal remedies, their uses, side effects, interactions with other medications, etc. Most doctors are much more educated about herbals than lay people. When those I know enter the hospital for surgery, they are asked to bring ALL medications they take with them for review, including herbals. Why? Because anesthesiologists are well aware of drug interactions or potential side effects such as excessive bleeding due to herbals, which patients often dismiss, because hey, it's natural and can't hurt me.

Most doctors and pharmacists I know actually recommend some herbal/alternative products, once there is adequate scientific proof to do so. Fish oil and coQ10 are widely recommended and recognized as beneficial.

And RackNStack is correct, they are not regulated. There is nothing requiring herbal suppliers to actually include in their product the amount of active ingredient stated on the label. Herbals are NOT reliable if the dose you think you are taking is much larger or smaller than the dose you are actually taking.

what i ever i percieve RanStack to be what the hell difference does it make. they're in the dam medical field aren't they? Sooooooooooowhat if i mispelled it a few times. i was typing so fast i didn't realize i was doing it,get real.enough with the nit picking, you're rediculous.

that piece on doctors being much more educated on herbals is a crock of crap!they know jack when it comes to herbs.have you ever heard of a herbalist?probably not. i think they have a tad more training than doctors in that department.they have to be trained in it.so don't give me the doctors know more about herbs routine. oh and yeah checking what drugs and natural supplements you are taking is standard, when having surgery.but guess what? this is a new comcept.so you write like it's always been standard proceedure because it hasn't.it just dawned on them that drugs were interacting, with the patient so guess what happened?

Bottom line all your blah blah blah, doesn't change a thing.RanStack doesn't believe in the use of herbals, whether they're regulated or not.that's the long and the short of it.i'm not to going tp keep going on and on about this stuff. i said it before and i'll say it again. you, me ,RanStack or anyone else is not infallible, so get off your soap box.it's getting old, enough!

On one thing we agree. Enough. There is no point trying to have an intelligent discussion with someone who support their position with assumptions and inaccuracies.

BTW, you engaged me first. My first comment was directed at noone in particular. But you seem to take any difference of opinion as a personal attack, turn to name-calling, then backpedal.

When did you attend any class on herbals? I have, and know they are part of medical education, too. Not to the same extent as an herbalist (Are they even licensed or regulated, anyway? If not, why do they need to know more?) But I'm sure you will refuse to believe that, because it doesn't suit your point. The reason surgeons and anesthesiologist started asking about herbals is because herbal suppliers have convinced people herbs are safe, without side effects, and don't interact with other drugs, so people neglected to mention them. I'm curious, if doctors are ignorant about herbals, why do they bother to ask? In that case, they wouldn't know to ask, would they?

Bet I'll see you on your anti-FDA soapbox a lot.

right there's no use in discussing anything with a know it all with alot of inaccuracies.whonthinknthey know everything.

you're delusional on the name calling.i'm not going to keep defending myself to you.you can't accept it then TOUGH!i don't care.

the herbs might part be part of med ed. but a very small part.saying that herbs were safe is not the reason why physicians started asking questions, they started asking question because of common sense. they started asking questions because the herbs and medicine didn't mix, and a lot of people e were getting sick.especially if they were going to operated on with anethesia this has nothing to do with not regulated and being told their safe.it's simply interaction of the 2.just for safety sake.

you won't see me anywhere.you madam are just antiherbal and have got try to get your convoluted point across, however, you didn't.

Hey, gloria, do they make an herb to make you stop acting like a dick?

Gloria, I don't really know where you went off the deep end in this thread, but I have significant concerns about your mental state and wish you would relook at the herbal formulas you're taking and perhaps consider a change.

All I said is that herbals would be good if there was some regulation to their manufacturing here in the U.S. In Germany, herbs are prescribed because they're regulated over there. You get a bottle of St. John's Wort there and each capsule contains the same amount of the active ingredient. Here, it's a crap shoot. And it's been proven in studies where people take this stuff back to labs, open it up, and find all kinds of crap. There's nothing in my post that said it was hocus pocus, or bad for you, or any of that.

So, you can continue to be a d**chebag, but all you do is give herbalists a bad name.

RackNStack,

I wouldn't bother trying to explain your position to Gloria. She already knows your position much better than you do anyway. She also knows my position better than I do. She was sitting in your class when you were receiving your medical training, and know that herbs were never addressed. She knows that I don't take fish oil, because I am anti-herbs and supplements and would never do that (in fact, I do). And if she doesn't know, you'd better agree with whatever she makes up!

I'm not too convinced she's had any real training apart from what has been read on the Internet, and we know that information is infallible.

One of my friend's wives died from metastatic breast cancer because of an herbalist. She went through a round of chemo following her mastectomy and felt horrible. An herbalist 'friend' got into her brain and told her how much better natural stuff would be for her instead of that evil chemotherapy. So, she traveled 4+ hours to go see this herbalist and naturalist in colorado who wound up putting her on all this crap, chelation therapy (at a few hundred bucks per infusion) and what have you. Died in about six months from a disease that had she stuck with the conventional treatment she'd probably still be alive today and doing well. I can't guarantee that, nothing in this life is certain, but her odds would have been a helluva lot better.

Lesson learned......M.D.s aren't the only ones looking for your money. Gloria's looking for it as much as the next person, she just has a different product she's selling.

Anyone that tries to sell you something with NO side effects and NO long term consequences is selling you a line of s**t, Gloria included.

Sorry to hear about the death of your friend. Yes, chemo is toxic and makes you feel like crap. It is more toxic to cancer cells. If I'm ever diagnosed with cancer, and chemo is recommended, I will not hesitate to follow that recommendation. It may be rough, but it's better than the alternative.

You raise another interesting point - many "herbalists" or "naturalists" push their products by claiming they're natural and therefor don't have side effects like "toxic" manufactured drugs. Folks, herbal drugs are just that - DRUGS, with side effects. Some benign, some not so benign. Garlic and gingko biloba, both pretty popular, have been linked to excessive bleeding during surgery. St. John's wort, shown to be effective in treating depression, has many interactions with other medications. So even if the herb has benefits, it may have unintended effects, as well. That is not an anti-herb statement; patients and doctors should consider risks versus benefits for ANY medication, herbal or otherwise.

the natural remedies madam effect people different in different ways. what didn't work for you, may work for someone else.

there is no blanket remedy for anyone. it's on a case by case basis.

I think the natural remedies work better on woman who undergo 'natural' menopause, compared to surgical menopause.

Contrary to popular belief, your ovaries and uterus supply hormones well past menopause, just not in as great quantities as before.

Low dose estrogen HRT is safe, according to my Dr.

But as I stated before; the study never tells us who has ovaries/uterus and who doesn't. I think its a big factor.

I've always been told by Dr's its the progesterone part that causes cancer, not only breast, but reproductive as well.

I had taken progesterone many years ago for another problem, and often wonder if thats what caused the ovarian cancer.

Make that at least two drs. because mine said the same about progesterone. One thing we can all agree on, I would hope, we need good solutions for this nasty little gift and we need it to be healthy, simple to obtain, and affordable. Best of luck to all of our "sisters in change".

congrats Andrea, good for you!

Bingo!suz47

Great post!

What? I thought herbs couldn't harm you.