Bull! Setting up alcohol as a goal to be obtained or to designate 'adulthood' is what's back-firing. How many young people die each year from 21 at 21?

Lifestyle? The cold beer I drink on a hot day or the hot toddy I drink on a cold evening designates my lifestyle? Isn't that just a tad judgmental?

I was raised with a rational attitude to alcohol e.g. I was allowed to drink at family gatherings from a fairly young age. I applied the same rationality to my daughter's upbring as she is to her son.

Three generations and it's working a charm. We, as a society, need to grow up past repressive Puritanism.

They should have done this study in Europe, where the drinking age is lower and drinking by youths is more tolerated. Then they would have recieved different results for their study. They just did this so that they could get the most negative results possible to push their agenda. I personally think people should stay out of my business and how I raise my children.

My son is 16 and when he turns 18 he will be allowed to drink...
If he is old enough to be sent to the other side of the world to kill and die in a war...
Then he is damn well old enough to have a beer.

You can raise your kids how you want...
Don't tell me how to raise mine.

If you are an alcoholic it doesn't matter if you start when you are 16 or 26, the results will be same.

Its the addictive tendency of the person that causes addiction whither it is alcohol or drugs. Not the age you start.

There is another factor in kids in Europe and alcohol -- they cannot obtain a drivers license until 18.

This study is biased. Not once did they mention testing kids that grew up in a home where drinking was not allowed and what happened to them as they got older. How can you say they would turn out differently then the ones that where studied while drinking? I know someone that grew up in a home that didnt allow tv, internet, or drinking. He is dead now for drunk driving. If your going to do a test, then test all sides and compare, not just one side and say see?

This is an extremely poorly designed study. The idea of using a questionnaire and counting on honest, accurate responses is a troubling way to collect data for this type of study. Getting input from the parents as well and comparing the answers would at least improve the accuracy and help identify problem data. Also, the study seems designed to get the results the authors want by looking at kids who started drinking very early, verses those who did not drink until they were legal. What about the intermediate cases. Also, there is a huge difference between a kid being allowed to drink at parties with their peers, where peer pressure tens to dictate how much a kid drinks, and having a glass of wine at dinner with parents. Allowing under age kids to have a beer bash with parents present to "supervise" is not teaching anything, particularly not responsible use of alcohol. Allowing a kid to have a glass of wine with dinner on a special occasion and limiting them to that one glass, while the parents do the same, is teaching responsible use of alcohol. If the kids are only allowed one glass while the parents have three or four, the kid learns he opposite of what is intended. That is that it is OK as an adult to drink as much as you want. You can not teach about something like this with a do as I say, not as I do approach - it won't work. The best teaching is done by the kids observing responsible behavior on the part of their parents, whether the kid is allowed to partake or not. I see no problem with allowing a kid to join their parents for a glass of wine with dinner now and then. However, I think that 8th grade is a little too early for this and that maybe waiting until they are at least 16 might be more appropriate. One glass of wine at that age is not going to affect the child's development.

MADD has nothing to do with the government. Stop blaming everything on the *gummint* and realize there are plenty of private organizations which sponsor or lobby for controls on certain things. Not to mention corporations who lobby for special favors and broadcast deceptive advertising about how great they are. I'm not a member of MADD nor do I support all their views. Don't blame the government for everything you don't like.

If you are an alcoholic it doesn't matter if you start when you are 16 or 26

You aren't an alcoholic until AFTER you start drinking. Nobody is born an alcoholic.

I don't really drink at all - less than rarely really. My father was an alcoholic - yet none of us 4 kids have a problem with drinking, and we're all in our 40's now.

I have a 13 yr old who I've talked to about everything from drugs, sex and drinking. Regarding alcohol, I explained about my father, and his relatives who also drank excessively, but I told her it's not the booze that will get her addicted, but rather what I believe to be an "addiction" gene passed from generation to generation. This gene I believe also applies to drugs or anything else like prescription narcotics.

I told her that when she does begin to drink, which I hope is not until she turns 21, but I'm not stupid and I know it'll happen before that - but only to drink enough to get a buzz, and then stop. She'll have a better time at whatever party she's at, she'll remember things and won't be falling over, passing out nor wake up with a hangover.

I have no alcohol in my house at all so I don't need to worry about her sneaking around here at home, but I do realize other situations will arise where she'll copy her friends just because they drink. I'm just trying to teach her to be responsible, but I do have a feeling she won't develop a problem with it because she's very picky about what she eats and drinks. Even at her age, she still refuses to drink any soda because she doesn't like the taste. Her friends can't believe that, but they see her drinking only chocolate milk and water, which thrills me to death! Many times they've gotten her to try Coke or Pepsi, and other soda's... none of which she likes, so she sticks to the water for the most part.

I think a basic understanding of what booze can and will do to someone who goes way overboard drinking, as opposed to drinking only enough to get a decent buzz going and being responsible enough to stop is the way to go. Along with making sure she NEVER gets in a car with anyone who's been drinking, and to call me instead - even if she's underage and has been drinking herself. I told her I wouldn't get mad or yell at her for drinking underage as long as she's responsible enough to call me to come pick her up or get a cab.

I suppose when raising a teen, as a parent all we can do is hope and pray we raised a responsible child who actually listens to us when have these "talks", regardless of what the talk is about.

The only problem I have personally is do I ever tell her of my teenage years where all I really ever did was rebel against my parents? Drinking and pot was a constant in my life, yet I also partied with some major drug addicts to coke and heroin, which I've never done and never wanted to. I was not the model teenager and gave my mother hell growing up - but the good thing in my situation now is that my daughter is nothing like I was and has never behaved the way I used to. I'm just a little stuck on whether or not to go into details if and when she ever asks me about my drug/drinking use at her age. I suppose I'll just have to wait and see.

The Trotsky and the thinker -- The "drinking business" here is such a big deal. If we'd just stick with a glass of wine at dinner, we'd all be fine. I lived in Europe for years and things seemed a lot less complicated when in came to drinking. We were taught that drinking to excess was severely frowned upon and drunks were not appreciated. I also believe that alcoholism often runs in families and some people have a tendency toward it. People need to learn that there is a time and place for certain things--if you drink, don't drive and when you drink, don't drink to the point that you do things you regret later on.

@ V...

Post #1.3, after your son turns 18 he will be everyone's child.

I hope you raised him up correctly because what you do for your child is out of love for your child, what the world will do when your child does the wrong thing is hatred, we will bury your child six feet underground.

Your "You can raise you kids how you want... Don't tell me how to raise mine." line doesn't work.

Trotsky, you're an idiot. All of my friends who drink alcohol do so because primarily because they enjoy the taste. The majority of us are unmarried without kids, and in our 30s or 40s. We enjoy different styles of beer, some enjoy hard liquor, a few of my friends prefer wine, and a small subset doesn't drink at all. Most of us are reasonably successful in life, and not one of us drinks because we're insecure or because we feel the need to 'fit in' somewhere. The guys that don't drink, we don't harrass about it -- at all.

Alcohol consumption is NOT a crutch for any of us -- it is simply a casual part of our lifestyle. We talk about finding a new beer the same way we talk about reading a new book, seeing a new movie, or playing a new game. None of us have ever been busted for DUI / DWI, and aside from the occasional hangover, alcohol has had very little negative effect on our normal lives. The first time I ever even tried alcohol, I was 22, yet my grandfather & uncle were/are both alcoholics, and I grew up around drinkers & smokers.

I'm not generally in favor of underaged drinking because, frankly, most teens -- heck, even most college kids under age 25 -- are too stupid to not make bad decisions with alcohol. The simple fact that underaged drinking is illegal & it's harmful for a kid's development should be enough of a deterrent for parents to not allow their kids to drink under their supervision.

DUH

Another "study" showing that common sense should be followed.

All you're teaching your kids when you let them "drink" underage is that they can pick and choose which laws to disobey.

Alcohol affect a young mind worse than adult mind. Children are NOT "small adults".

And good point Justoneguy.

Justone guy -

Some laws are worth breaking. I'm thinking about segregation laws of the past. But I whole-heartedly agree with you - the drinking laws are not worth breaking. Alcohol consumption is not a make or break issue - it can wait! If you can't wait you already have a problem.

Why does anyone need a drink? I will tell you why. Because they lack self confidence. No one drinks because it taste good. You might call yourself a wine aficionado but that's just code word for a lack of self confidence.

Really? A great many people like the taste of beer. Why do you think the alcohol free ones sell so well? A great many people like a good wine as well. Those who drink alcohol responsibility reap the health benefits of it and thoroughly enjoy the flavor.

Please -- give up on the pop psychology.

I'm sure there is a difference in what happens when you give your child a glass of wine at dinner vs. letting them chug a beer at a party with their friends. That's why I'm also curious to see what the results of this study would be if it included children from Europe, where drinking at a younger age is a stronger part of the culture. What I know for sure is that my parents allowed me a drink every now and then when I was younger, and I didn't go on to become an alcoholic. I don't even drink alcohol period nowadays.

Terrible study, and a waste of money. They failed to include a mailer to kids who drank unsupervised, and drank at parties without parents. How many of them experienced the negative behavior defined in the study? I have never conducted such a study, but I was at a few of those parties in highschool and the percentage (of the kids at the party exhibiting said behavior) was significantly over half (here in America).

It isn't a matter of the monitoring now working, but the fact that a parent wasn't properly supervising their child while he/she was consuming alcohol. The only thing this study proved was that about 25% of parents who allow their kids to consume alcohol in front of them were more irresponsible than their children.

I've never read so much junk in my life. People who drink are weak etc... No one drinks for the taste. Are you kidding me? I was in the wine business for over 20 years till I retired. I drink everyday and love my cocktails. I am not an alcoholic, nor is my spouse. Idiots who think people who drink everyday are "alcoholics" are just plain IGNORANT! An alcoholic is a person who's "personality changes" when they drink, end of story. The "macho guy", the "big mouth", the "crier", the "off come the clothes person", the "can't keep his / her hands to themselves person", the "fighter", those are all the signs of alcoholism. I have many friends in AA, a great organization, and I have as much in common with them concerning alcohol abuse as the man on the moon.

The day we kowtowed to the "prohibitionists" and the looneys of "MADD" is the day we through our young adults under the bus for good concerning responsible behaviour regarding alcohol. Treat an adult as a child, you get children. How can ANY OF YOU except sending a young adult over to kill people but not be able to have a beer with his burger?? SHAME on all of you. And whomever wrote that European 16 year olds can not drive till 18 has no clue, you've obviously never been overseas. Repeal this INSANE law. How's it working for you by the way?, sure has helped "the children" eh? The definition of "complete failure" is doing the same thing that never worked over and over.

Trotsky's quote

Why does anyone need a drink? I will tell you why. Because they lack self confidence. No one drinks because it taste good. You might call yourself a wine aficionado but that's just code word for a lack of self confidence.

Like it or not, alcohol kills. At the very least, knocks years off your life. Your kids aren't drinking a glass a red wine a day for their heart. They are probably drinking rot gut with their parents.

You have serious issues my friend. Alcohol does not "kill" unless you use it to excess. Your debunked by statistics from other countries who drink more than we do but live far longer. Americans will die from being fat slobs, not from having a few drinks nightly pal. "Self Confidence" is lacking with people who drink. Yeah sure, and pigs fly. Sell stupid somewhere else we're all full up on here.

"there probably drinking rot gut with their parents." Since you obviously know rot gut, tell us all about it, OK?

And whomever wrote that European 16 year olds can not drive till 18 has no clue, you've obviously never been overseas

JCB -- I wrote that. And until you inserted this sentence, I rather agreed with you .... here are the driving ages in Europe for standard licenses. My comment was not directed at the UK because it's not "on the Continent"so many people (including myself) tend not to consider it "European", but that is 17. The only "continental European" age under 18 is Poland, at 17.

http://www.2pass.co.uk/ages.htm

But perhaps you are confused with the DRINKING age which hovers around 16 with various rules governing what they can drink, when and where; and where they can buy it.

My father let me try a beer at 16. I haven't touched any of that swill since.

So the whole supervised drinking thing worked for me, at least.

wingartist

@ V...

Post #1.3, after your son turns 18 he will be everyone's child.

Bull$hit... At 18 he will become his OWN man... not your's or anyone else's child... If he commits a crime HE pays the price... If he goes off to war HE puts HIS life on the line... If he decides to become an EMT then HE will save lives... you, and everyone else have NOTHING TO DO WITH HIM.

I hope you raised him up correctly because what you do for your child is out of love for your child,

I couldn't ask for a better kid with a bigger heart...

what the world will do when your child does the wrong thing is hatred, we will bury your child six feet underground.

WTF are you rambling about??? You need to choose your words more carefully... what you just said, could be construed as a threat... which I would take extremely personally.

Your "You can raise you kids how you want... Don't tell me how to raise mine." line doesn't work.

Yes it f*cking well does... How would you like ME telling YOU how to raise YOUR kid? And telling YOUR kid he/she has every right to drink when they're 18? You wouldn't like that would you?

So I won't tell you how to raise your kid, and you don't tell me how to raise mine?
See it works just fine...

Beth, I was thinking UK on age. your right on the driving age on the continent. changing the law here to 18 was a disaster, end of story.

Your parents will always be the ones who teach you, from the earliest age, responsibility, what dangers to avoid, and moderation. If parents lead by example, binge drinking can be minimized.

Good parenting will reduce excessive teen drinking more than any artificially created age limits.

Also, our culture should not encourage binge drinking as soon as our young adults reach college.

Not sure what you mean or what you are getting at here...??

I have no idea what Ringo's talking about either. Drinking is easy...have an ID, and don't get smashed in public or drive home under the influence.

Unless Ringo thinks public drunkenness and DUIs are a good thing? 0_o

he's talking about the fact that the drinking age is 21. 18 year olds are adults but not allowed to drink.

Jagaur is spot on.

I'm Ringo, try to be more specific. I am not sure how Jaguar got that from your statement above. However, I do agree. When I first joined the Military at age 18, I was responsible for multi million dollar equipment and could die for my country, be tried as an adult, but I couldnt get alchohol.

Sadly, addiction (& that includes alcohol since it IS a drug with no food value) is still something too little is known about. It has been proven in studies that the younger the person starts drinking, the faster the addiction takes hold. Makes since since kids & teens are gorwing & their bodies are changing.

I'm married to a long time recovered alky-28 yrs. And I learned FAR more at AA/Alanon meetings that I EVER did in NURSING SCHOOL about substance abuse.

The classic reason behind a parent-supervised party with alcohol is "I want them to be safe. If they don't do it here they'll do it somewhere else."

As someone who was raised by a parent who thought that way... It's NOT true. We partied at my house because it was made available to us. If it hadn't been, we wouldn't have partied like that. Because it was made so easy, I partied a LOT more than I would have if I'd had to go out, find a place to drink, get someone of legal age to buy the booze, etc. Too much work. When we couldn't party at my place, we didn't party. Sooo.... Yeah. This logic isn't sound.

The biggest flaw in this study is that it doesn't take in to account the kids who are going to drink regardless if there is a parent present. Kids are less likely to binge drink with a parent around. Also I could probably only name a dozen kids while I was in high school who did not drink until they turned 21. For the parents out there that think your kids are all peaches and cream...your kids are drinking, maybe not around you but they are drinking.

THX,

Thanks for your input. It will give me pause in my approach to my teens. Interesting perspective.

Those parents who say" Kids are going to drink anyway, might as well do it with my supervision" are dillusional. The point is that those types want to be their kids friends and in doing so have abdicated their responsibility as parents.

I agree with Elizabeth. It's the attitude about drinking that makes a difference. My daughter will be 21 this year. Because she has been allowed to have a drink at home on holidays, and experiences family parties where alcohol is not the main event, she is not going to go out on her 21st birthday and try to drink 21 shots, which some of her friends are planning. They have no idea how the alcohol will affect them.

I have neighbors who took just the opposite approach. They drank excessively in front of their children. They sure were embarrassed when their young daughter raised the Communion cup at church and exclaimed "Cheers!"

@Elizabeth Marie

"Birthday parties with other kids were strictly alcohol free and continued to be for as long as I lived at home (age 29)".

It looks like you could have used some alcohol and growing up if you lived a third of your life with your parents.

Actually, the UK currently has an enormous binge drinking problem among teens and young adults -- and staggering high rates of alcoholism. I suspect, from personal observations while traveling, that the same can be said for at least Greece (in urban areas, anyway) and possibly France. However, I have not actually seen the studies for these countries like I have for the UK, so I can not say it is certainly the case there. This piece of folk wisdom may have been true in the past (I used to believe it was true, too), but the culture has changed and so has youth culture (includig drinking culture).

As for the going to war vs drinking argument... My problems with that argument are numerous. First of all, you are basically suggesting that if a kid can hold a gun for their country, they should be able to drink... but I sure as heck don't want a kid who has been drinking to pick up a gun. Now, I'm not suggesting the two have to go together... and yet your argument is based on the idea that the two issues should somehow be related... It just doesn't make sense. Plus, at 18, a brain is in its final stages of adolescent development. That makes them at the perfect stage for the type of mental 'training' needed to develop an obedient soldier (the brain is still malleable and subject to molding) -- but that same malleable nature makes it that much more susceptible to the damaging effect of alcohol than someone whose brain has more or less stopped developing with physical maturity. So the very thing that makes a youth of 18 perfect for becoming a soldier makes them more at risk to alcohol. Fair? No. But thems the breaks.

Just to be clear, I am coming from a family that has always been fairly liberal when it comes to alcohol consumption -- not some kind of repressive environment where alcohol was viewed as "Satan's drink" or anything like that. I enjoy wine with my dinner and a good G&T to relax after a stressful day at work. I just believe that there is a time and place for alcohol consumption and for many reasons, childhood and the teen years are not it.

Matt:

You sound like a raging alcoholic with your defense of it. Go ahead Matt, start your child on the sauce before it's too late. It will give you someone to drink with anyways.

saddened-1829725

Congrats, you can read the pamflet.

What's a pamflet?

Oh, wait, it's pamphlet. The spell check button told me.

I don't think it will matter whether you allow your children alcohol or not: when they hit the age of 21, they will or will not 'binge' drink, as suits them. You have influenced and taught them as much as possible; now it's up to them and their own beliefs, vs. the influence of their peer groups. Many young servicemembers drink to excess, especially when they are deployed, just as their civilian peers do. Whether you are talking about infantrymen just in from patrol, or a ramp rat in from launching and recovering aircraft, many want to wind down with their friends and a cold one. Saddened, it was my policy that my people were not allowed to come on duty under the influence of anything-if they wanted to drink, do it afterward. They soon learned what was acceptable and within safe limits. When lives may well depend upon your actions, you want to be at your best.

when they hit the age of 21, they will or will not 'binge' drink, as suits them

There's a difference between their deciding to drink at 21 and a parent putting the booze in their hand at 17. A kid may decide to smoke pot when they're in college but that doesn't mean a parent should spark up a joint with them when they're in high school.

You conveniently pick line one and ignore line two. I said, and I repeat, that you do your best to influence them, before they reach that point. I grew up with European influence in my life, where the kids were allowed just a bit of watered wine at large family get-togethers, and where moderation was taught. It worked with me, while my peers went off to the liquor stores and returned drunk. It worked on my kids, as well. But that doesn't matter, does it?

There may be some link or there may not - these types of studies are always designed to produce a result and can't be trusted in any case. The real question is whether government has any business legislating in the area to force people to be virtuous. The "pursuit of happiness" includes having a few at age 18, in my opinion, and it's each person's own business.

Yes, the UK has a binge drinking problem. But not the other European countries.

The military does not train soldiers to be "unthinking" killing machines. And it is illegal for the judicial system to force anyone into the military. It's also against military regulations to accept recruits who appear to have been forced to join.

Having said all that, I agree that people should be allowed to drink at 18. If we are going to hold them to adult standards at 18 then they should be able to exercise adult privileges at 18.

Bout time - Not sure what military you where in, but the military i was in did train you to be "unthinking" (not killing) machines. In fact they prefered you to do exactly what was told.

The military does not train soldiers to be "unthinking" killing machines.

Oh yes they do. They are taught to immediately respond to orders. This is done so that they won't sit around analyzing (thinking) what to do in a crisis situation.

Plus, at 18, a brain is in its final stages of adolescent development. That makes them at the perfect stage for the type of mental 'training' needed to develop an obedient soldier (the brain is still malleable and subject to molding) -- but that same malleable nature makes it that much more susceptible to the damaging effect of alcohol than someone whose brain has more or less stopped developing with physical maturity.

Wow Brave New World revisited... We should use 18 years olds because they we can use the malleability of their brains to kill on command (which the military does by supplying methamphetamines to soldiers) but they are not formulated enough to drink a beer. Who ever you are, you scare the hell out of me that you are a fellow member of humanity who sees us all as your personal pawns to be manipulated as you see psychologically fit to do!

Hedwig, the French have a drinking problem, too.

http://www.marininstitute.org/alcohol_policy/french_drinking.htm

"The French drink one-and-a-half times more per capita than Americans and their death rate from liver cirrhosis is more than one-and-a-half times greater than that in the United States. According to WHO, France has the sixth highest adult per capita alcohol consumption in the world. (The U.S. ranks 32nd.) Alcohol may be involved in nearly half of the deaths from road accidents, half of all homicides, and one-quarter of suicides, according to the French equivalent of the U.S. Institutes of Health. And while coro­nary heart disease may be less pervasive in that country of 60 million people than in many others, it is still the number one cause of death.

. According to the first French eco­nomic study of its kind, France is more like the U.S. than Americans might real­ize in that alcohol also ranks first - above tobacco - in its cost to society. Tobacco takes more of a toll than alcohol in the rest of Europe, Canada and Australia.

. The high premature death rate of French men is largely due to alcohol abuse. It is nearly double the premature death rate of French women, and the magnitude of the difference is the highest in Europe, according to the French gov­ernment's most recent report on health.

. French youth, who can legally drink at age 16, prefer beer and distilled spirits to wine and have increased their con­sumption fivefold since 1996, in part because 12- to 14-year-olds are drinking and binge drinking. This has led to a new government "War Against Drugs" that includes alcohol".

Don't give your kids liquor. For one thing, you are telling them it's OK to break the law.

Oh, and it's a growing problem in Italy as well:

Adding to legislative efforts to control alcohol consumption is a growing concern about binge drinking among Italian youth that has raised a “social alarm” in the country, said Mr. Giovanardi. In the last 20 years, he said, some 10,000 people under the age of 25 have died from alcohol-related traffic accidents and thousands more have been injured.

“The problem of alcoholism is growing in Italy because we have severed the link between food and drink — now, young people drink to get drunk,” and that creates all sorts of problems for public safety and the proliferation of laws to control the situation, said Edi Sommariva, who is director general of FIPE and a supporter of the E.U. restrictions on sales venues for alcohol.

Alcoholism rates in Italy have tripled since 1996 to the current rate of around 60,000, with just over 10 percent under 29 years of age, said Emanuele Scafato, director of the National Observatory on Alcohol at the National Institute of Health. And even though on paper Italy has an ambitious program to combat alcohol abuse, it is severely underfunded — as opposed to the €169 million, or $243 million, a year invested in advertising in Italy by liquor companies, he said.

Mr. Scafato is part of a national committee that has been lobbying Parliament both to raise the legal drinking age to 18 and to ban the sale of alcohol to minors.

The increase in young drinkers is “something we have never experienced before and that has pressured policy decision makers to do something,” he said.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/05/business/global/05italy.html

Actually, this is kind of weird. Why the heck are these European kids binge drinking all of a sudden? This did not used to be a problem. Very strange.

Paul, your "knowledge" of the U.S. military is so much tripe. The services not only do not supply meth to soldiers, that court martial and expel those who use it. I know because I was part of one such court martial, and was aware of others. As for being an unthinking killing machine, the officers and NCOs I knew much prefered thinking killers, when there was killing to be done. A smart, trained, thinking man is flexible in combat. Yes, you want him to follow orders, but not blindly, for it is often the spirit of those orders that counts for more that the words themselves. That is how the U.S. Army has managed to win so many battles in the past.

As for the going to war vs drinking argument... My problems with that argument are numerous. First of all, you are basically suggesting that if a kid can hold a gun for their country, they should be able to drink... but I sure as heck don't want a kid who has been drinking to pick up a gun.

There's one huge problem with this argument, and that is, this is exactly what is happening. In the US the legal drinking age is 21 yrs old in most of the rest of the world the legal drinking age is 18yo or younger.

Where are wars fought? Oh Yea, everywhere else, everywhere where the drinking age is younger. So we send our under 21yo soldiers into countries where the drinking age is now legal to them, and guess what happens? Yep, they drink. Some responsibly some not so much.

My 17yo daughter has several friends in the military, some stationed in areas where there is no combat and some where there is, but almost all of them are drinking. So your argument about not wanting to send soldiers in who have been drinking is ignorant, because they most likely have been drinking, at some point. So we are in fact sending our children into situations where they are legal in every aspect except drinking, but when they are in another country then those laws apply at least off base, where they spend some of their time, which means many of them will be drinking. So we send them unprepared for this type of socializing and with a result they often over imbibe and end up getting drunk and doing stupid things. I'm definitely not in favor of under age 19 drinking, except for the rare glass of wine with the parents. And I say age 18 as there are many high school students who are still in school at age 18 and if it's available to them it will be to their friends. But we need to teach our enlisted personnel about alcohol before we send them overseas where the laws are different.

Anybody been to Germany? There is a lot of drinking and not always responsibly. Shopkeepers drinking beer at NOON! When the sun goes down there are a lot of tipsy young and old people. Don't tell them they have a drinking problem because they are Europeans and everyone knows they know how to handle their liquor.

Actually, the article specifically stated the age group of the study -- starting in the 7th grade. In most cases, it is safe to say that would be well below the age of 18. ;-)

I think the strongest thing this article said is for parents to set the example. Don't drink to excess and don't allow your children to be around people who do. Parents are the main influence on what is acceptable behavior.

Agreed. This was the only really valid statement in the article. Remember - correlation between two things does not mean that one causes the other. If parents model and teach responsible drinking behavior, then that's what the children will learn. I drank a small amount of wine at the family dinner table all through my teen years, with no ill effects. Alcohol was never forbidden, so there was no temptation to sneak around and drink on the sly and I never did. My parents modeled responsible behavior so that's what I learned.

This study apparently failed to control the groups much at all (family history of substance abuse, family stability, parental drinking behavior, etc.), making it fairly useless. Sounds more like propaganda than science to me.

My folks had wine with dinner at a restaurant and at home every now and then and let us taste it if we wanted, proving to me constantly that wine was not something a teen could fully appreciate (I drink it now, but back then, I thought it was disgusting.) They didn't drink every other night. They weren't parents who cracked open a beer to watch TV or vodka-tonic'd til they went to bed. The harder liquor they had they used for cooking. Somewhere in middle school we got the party/alcohol talk-they pulled out every bottle of liquor they had and put them on the kitchen table and explained to us that our friends parties would start to include, due to our ages, kids that might have alcohol. They let us smell everything and taste a couple and like the wine, that proved that their wasn't much appeal behind the hype of being cool and drinking to impress our peers. We were told that if we were at a party and someone showed up with alcohol, we could stay or not, drink or not, and call home to ask to be picked up, whatever the time, situation, no questions asked. That being said, I didn't have my first drinks away from my folks until I was 20, and I had my first couple of beers with my Dad at 21 at a friend's family bbq. After 21, my friends and I would go out constantly to clubs, and someone would be the DD, or we'd get a cab home. We knew our limits and we usually kept to them, and once we hit them, it was time for straight cola or water, and the diner across the street for an hour or two if we felt we needed to sober up before driving anywhere. I'm not entirely sure it's a "lead by example" issue for everyone, because I've never seen my parents drunk, and yet I drink, while my sibling rarely indulges. Most teens are going to do what they feel comfortable doing while away from our parents, regardless of what they are told not to do, I think. My teenage parties usually rallied around pizzas, snacks, movies, video games-if anyone was drinking it was an adult out back who checked in from time to time and made sure we hadn't broken anything. We were never tempted to sneak a beer, we just wanted to hang out with our friends.

After 18, I don't see how a parent has control over an adult's drinking.

Yours parents may not have control over you after 18 but the government does.

This is exactly what I kept thinking while reading the article!

This study only proves what they want it to prove. In my family, my sister and I were taught to drink at home, and when we got to college we were both always the responsible ones who knew when to stop. All these other kids who had never seen a beer were getting sick all over themselves.

I would be curious to know more about the groups they used in the study. There must be more to it than this.

Exactly! I live in Germany and have two kids. You couldn't pay me to leave here or raise my kids anywhere else! People here don't have a tenth of the hang-ups and problems with sex, alcohol, race, religion or a myriad of other things like they do in the States.

Bur the State does know best. Haven't you noticed? And I bet they've got a study to prove it!

Yeah, but France and Italy are having problems, too, see my post at 4.16 above.

The last time Elizabeth Marie looked she was also living with her parents at the age of 29.

Seriously? I hope this is a joke. Did you even read the article? They studied two groups of kids, one in Australia and one in the US. I think the cultural difference between the two contries are precisely why they chose to study two groups. Good job missing the point on that one. "In addition, the study focused on children whose parent let them drink in their presence in 8th grade." Again, did you read the article? The study ACTUALLY focused on children from 7th grade to 9th grade (3 years). It didn't just select children who drank with their parents, it selected random children and asked them what their drinking habits are. Point #2 completely missed. I don't know what is more astounding: that someone could bash an article that they so clearly don't understand, or that your rant is liked by enough people to put it in the top 3 responses. That alone is an argument for why people shouldn't drink at a young age . . . as the article states (basically), it makes them less intelligent.

If you are trying to see if cultural differences make a difference, then the study makes sense. Almost two thousand students were part of the study, half in Australia, half in Washington state. That gives you the statistical numbers you need to come up with a peer reviewable study.

The big problem is how the reporter phrased the beginning and ending of the article. With the mention of proms and after hour parties, it hints that the article is about high school seniors and drinking. But outside of the first paragraph, and the last two, it is, as you pointed out, about a slightly different topic.

That topic does have a certain amount of relevance though. Seventh and eighth graders often become high school seniors and what they learn in their early years can determine their habits in high school.

I think the bigger problem here is that the media often doesn't do a fair job of presenting wholly and accurately all of the details and intents of the study. Generalist makes a great point about the reporter's phrasing, which skews the reader's thinking. To know the true results and implications, one must read the published study itself.

I think there is a gap between scientists and the general public as far as communicating new ideas and finding go. As a pre-med student, I am taking a writing class that has made this clear to us. Our professor is trying to help us see this and solve this problem by making scientific findings more clear to the public, but I think we all have to meet in the middle.

There are many authors that try to "digest" information from scientific findings and present it to the public because they feel that the public would not bother to read or is unable to understand many of the relevant points. However, in doing so, they often skew the information presented in the basic article. Many times it can be because of personal agendas and other times because they focus on relatively unimportant information.

The study focuses on the effects of drinking alcohol, supervised or unsupervised, at ages ranging from 12 to 16 years old. Huh?

And the "study" determines that there are negative consequences as a result.

Gee. Who would have thought...

I agree with P.G.; the study is not only flawed in its scope and its dubious conclusions, but is also idiotic in concept.

From my personal experience, there is probably at least a little that people can think about in that story. I grew up in a "take a sip" house (no parties with parents) and bought beer for the first time at 15 (legal drinking age was 18). Drank quite a bit (binges) in college and into my late 20's. Based on contrasting my experiences with those of friends who grew up like I did and people whose parents did not allow the underage "sip", I do not buy the "if they try it at home, they won't go off the deep-end when they are on their own" logic. I won't be offering my teenage son alcohol at home. Hopefully it will keep him out of some dangerous situations he might not be able to navigate if he were a college binger like his mom was.

Only if you communicate with him, Julie, and he takes your lessons to heart. Remember that the young always believe themselves to be stronger and smarter than we were at that age, and thus unlikely to fall prey to the things that harmed us. I have seen the proof with my own eyes, during my years in the military, that too few young people learn from from their elders' mistakes.

This article is nothing more than the "Wet Paint" Theory. For many years painters have been cautioning people about touching the recently painted areas. There are those that, despite the warning, will touch the area to see if it really is wet. So some painters included a "sample" on the caution sign. And there were those that tested the sample and the painted surface.

Why in the hell would you even let your under aged kids sip alcohol? It s a drug, would you let your kids just take a sip of meth or a little shot of crak? Come on people! I'm don't condone alcohol, but I'm not against it for adults, but for God sake we have enough problems with our kids in this society without giving them a "sip" of alcohol.

So it's okay for you to use crack or meth? Same analogy. Small amounts of alcohol for an older teen are not detrimental; in fact, a beer or glass of wine can be beneficial. We are not taliking about getting drunk, here, you know. Most 'recreational' drunks are only used for the high; beer or wine can be sipped for the pleasure of their favor. In fact, I am swapping texts with my 30 year-old sone about a variety of beer, at the moment.

Sorry, I have to respectfully disagree! Your 30 year old son is an adult. He can decide for himself. If your a soldier and are defending our country then you should have the right at 18. They don't need the "medical benefits" of alcohol prior to 21. The drinking age is the drinking age and I totally agree it.....sorry

No need to apologize, we can agree to disagree on this; I was merely taking you to task on your analogy. My son, though, and I have sipped a beer together for quite a number of years, even before he was what they now call the legal age for him to do so in our home. Has he ever drunk to excess? Yes, but he was 'legal' by then, and was aware of the consequences of doing so. To his credit, he rarely did so, and actually confessed to having done so, even having the grace to look sheepish as he did. Most young men will drink to excess at some point; it seems to be a rite of passage. The difference is what they do once past that point. If you teach the right lessons, and they accept them in their hearts, they will learn. Thank you for the civility of your reply; I'd rather have rational disagreement than nasty support.

Well...you've got me there. I can not disagree with you this time on several of your points. I can truthfully say, that you are the first person on here that I have disagreed with that didn't turn into a blood bath, and I commend you for that. The other thing I didn't mention in my rebuttal is that all though everything I said I truly believe in, I think as long as someone is in their own home, they make the rules. As long as it doesn't interfere with others and the law. Peace..

It's not just being "allowed" to drink, Julie. It's about being taught about alcohol. What alcohol is suitable for what situation? What are your limits? What food goes with what alcohol? How do you feel when you're very drunk? What to do with hangover? Who drives when a group is to drink? All these things should be covered by the parent, rather than just saying "It's okay to drink if I'm watching." Teach your kid about alcohol - and educate yourself about it, in the meantime.

I applaud your strength.

The funny and sad part about the ostracism is if you go out with friends to a bar, the bartender asks if you want a drink, you say "Coke, I am an alcoholic," and not a word more will be said. They understand.

Thanks for your brutal honesty. Great job becoming a better dad,

Good for you for remaining sober!!!!

I come from a family in which alcoholism runs in both sides. My grandfather on my dads side passed away bc of it, and his sister and my brother were both alcoholics, they are now recovering of which our family is very thankful for! That being said i am a 23 yo college student and yes i do have a few drinks when i go out every now and then. I grew up w a stocked bar, my parents never hid alcohol from me, and honestly i never really wanted to partake. The first real drink i think i had was the night of my high school graduation and that was a glass of champagne. Since then i have not gone into a deep spin of alcoholism, but that is due to my parents honesty, trust, and teaching.

I think you are doing a wonderful job teaching your daughter!! I dont think i would let my kids( when that day comes) spend the night at a "party parents" home either. I feel it is my responsibility to teach my children about alcohol and the effects and circumstances and responsibility.

My wife and i lived in a small community for five years with our daughter...the entire township with the exception of just a few households operated under the

"better they drink at home with us than with strangers mindset" and out of all the students at the school in the community 90 percent of those children from 7th grade on up were allowed and even encouraged to drink at home or at the homes of other parents as an alternative to going out and drinking on their own.

These people hosted parties and oversaw the drinking of kids from 14 on up as if it were an everyday and innocent affair.

Out of 9 of our daughters friends 3 died in alchohol related car crash's 1 from alchohol poisoning ,1 went to jail for 8 years for an armed assault in a drunken brawl,2 are continuing to go in and out of rehab as we speak some 7 years later .Only 1 escaped the cycle of addiction. Our daughter has been struggling with alcoholism ever since and we have exhausted thousands of dollars and tens of thousands of sleepless nights and tears helping her through it and it is exhausting and heart rending. Our biggest battle in that community was trying to keep her out of harms way,while the children and parents both were telling her convincingly we were the enemy for not conforming to the mind set and trying to prevent her participation.

Its just a microcosmic look at the issue i know but...if it is any indication of the problems that can and at times will arise with parental condoning and participation in underage drinking i can say with certainty its a dangerous road to walk down .

You are a very responsible parent, and hit on a key point. Families with a history of alcoholism or substance abuse need to be much more careful about even casual consumption than families with no history.

And now Rip, you just sit at home drinking and blogging....

Nice story and good job! Sorry you had to find out the hard way.

I wish everyone had the ears to listen to what you have said. I spent seven years as a vol. Chaplin on a maxmum prison unit I have seen first hand the destruction that has been cause to the life of the offender and their families. Much of the time unrepairable damage. May God use your life to guide the life of not only your daughter but those she will touch as well. May God bless

Rippinstien hiy a key point in his/wer post, parenting. if you are able to drink freely, with no reprimand for your actions by your parents it isnt considered supervised, or taught, or however you want to put it. i gotta tell ya, if i was found passed out on the floor from alc. abuse, i would have had a real heart to heart with my dads backhand, and it wouldnt have been put off till the following day. when i was a kid, it was supervised, and very little drinking. in otherwords, supervised i meant, my parents made my drink, or handed me my beer, and it was a very weak drink. you pounded it down tuff luck, gotta wait till they said it was ok for another, and it wasnt whenever we felt like it. there was no drinking by us kids or our parents unless there was something going on, such as relatives over for a cook out. even then i would have to say at least 50% of the time if we asked fo a beer, the answer was no.

so reading this article, it does not point out what types of parenting had been involved. you can supervise (be in the presence) of your kids, but that isnt teaching them to be responsible, or how to handle the amount they consume. people can jump up and down, shake your fist at me all you want to, about how great your parents were, mine stunk, but they did one thing, the taught me how to be an adult before the time came.

I was raised in a home where we were allowed to have a beer with the men after we reached the age of 15. Neither me nor any of my siblings have an alcohol problem. Conversely, my brother in law was raised in a home where drinking was forbidden. He drank behind his parents back with his friends and was a certifiable alchoholic by the age of 18. I submit that alcoholism has more to do with our genetic predisposition than whether or not we wre allowed to have a beer before the magic age of 21.

Rippenstein, thank you for sharing your experiences.

As a physician, I have seen the serious downside of alcohol use in many patients. The more denial and enablers, the more destruction to families and friendships that occurs.

As with many things, both nature (genetics) and nurture (how you are raised) are involved.

You obviously have some great attributes in order to conquer your previous addictions. An important point some seem to be missing here is that a teenager's brain is not yet fully formed. As it is still in the stage of development, introducing alcohol into a young brain is gravely detrimental. Alcohol alone kills millions of brain cells and giving it to a child (adolescent or teenager) creates chaos on an already fragile organ at its most important growth cycle. Their brains cannot handle harmful chemicals like an adult with a fully developed body. These children are still growing and need absolute guidance and nourishment both physically and emotionally. It is our most important job.

I lived a childhood very similar to yours but I must say not everyone reacts to drinking the same. I have never had a drink at all in my life but had an acholoic parent. Its still a choice to drink and because your parents drank does not mean you will.

Indeed. Children are a reflection of the environment they're brought up in. This remains true even when they're teens. Taking a proactive role in your kid's development and teaching them why they need to avoid making bad decisions is critical at every stage of their non-adult lives. Understanding the risks they face can help a kid make better choices for themselves. It won't stop every kid, even smart ones, but it can cut back on how many learn the hard way how quickly a "good" thing can turn bad.

I think the study itself is fine. The main problem with research like this is that other people outside the research community take these studies and make their own assumptions off of them. This study just says that 7th, 8th, and 9th graders who are allowed to drink with parents fairly regularly can develop problems. However this reporter, and a few other "experts" decided to take that and use it as an argument to say parents shouldn’t let their teens drink. Ever. Research like this is designed to be very specific, it is not the researchers fault that people make broad assumptions based on this specific data. The research says nothing about high school, or having drinking parties at home, but other people twist the findings to fit their own beliefs.

Lewis, in general you are absolutely right, such is the case in scientific "news" reporting. However I read the published study in The Journal of Studies on Alcohol and Drugs (May 2011, p418) and the data manipulation do suggest an outcome they were trying to acheive. Similar studies on European subjects actually conclude otherwise, it does really come down to data analysis, and as I pointed out in my post, the data transformation here are puzzling to say the least.

I'm starting to think that every parent needs to bring home a 12-pack per teenager and sit down with a pot of coffee for yourself (it could be a long night), and tell them they can drink every can. And video tape them, and watch them drink it all-from the weird first taste that you eventually get used to, to the giggles and the buzz, to not being able to walk, all the way through to puking in the toilet. Clean them up, put them to bed, and sit quietly through watching the video-record with them the next morning. Show them see how they behave when they drink and let them wash their own clothes from the night before, clean the bathroom, etc, etc. They might actually get a better understanding of what it is that all drinking eventually ends up as-a wicked headache and bad taste in your mouth, a stupid look on your face right before you head for the toilet. Does anyone actually want to look stupid in front of their friends, and embarrass themselves by throwing up at a party while trying to be cool? They might play it off if you just tell them, what will happen, but experiencing it for themselves might just teach them a thing or two. Hmmm...(before you all jump on the "child endangerment" bandwagon, you are adults-you're allowed cut your own kid off, right? Stop if they tell you they don't want anymore. It will be on record.) They'll still wake up feeling like sh&t.

i agree catastic,

it more about parenting that plays a role when a childs life is shaped as to how they turn out, and how they deal with lifes problems. when i dropped out and got my GED it was because i needed to do something with my life, before i did so i had signed up for the army, and didnt want to wit the extra year because of the date of birth i was a year back from most kids, and i nearly aced my GED test. This article reminded me of the old days when i was in school. it didnt matter what claaification you were in, jock, burnout, prep, or loner... each one had at least 1 set of parents who allowed free drinking. you didnt hear much about supervised drinking, because "that wasnt cool", nor was no drinking allowed. and supervised drinking was actually supervised back then, as well the free drinking.

to make the story a bit shorter... you knew who the free drinking familys in each group were. As it went from middle school to early HS these same people who were cool and all that turned out to be losers for the most part. The HS football jocks turned into balding slobs with beer guts, and the prep lush a bar stool queen at the local bowling alley, who sit and drink till some guy will find his beer goggles and give them a lift. To the burnouts who when not in jail are looking to get into some sort of trouble to get put there. Mean time you really didnt hear too much about the kids who grew up with a tructured life. The went off to college, got married had kids, and you can guess the rest. I cant say this was true for everyone, but from what i saw during school days and after, that was basically the turn out. This poll is beyond flawed, as well leaves out pertinant information that reflects the outcome of the poll.

1 more thing i guess... we all remember the snobs from school.... nothing better when seeing one sitting at the hunched over, man or woman who used to thumb their noses to us back in the day, and saying to the effect..."wow long time no see, i looks like you reallt accomplished some great things with your life, gj!") make sure to toss in a few light pointers of how they were so great while you hold back a good laugh, and walk away. the results are worth it.

I can assure you I have never had 15 beers in one sitting, and my parents never did either. It would be pushing it for me to find a MONTH in which I had consumed fifteen beers. Mature and responsible people are well capable of consuming alcohol without making a menace of themselves, although I will sadly admit a worrying decrease in their numbers.

It is disingenuous to suggest that anyone who finds fault with the conclusions of this article must inherently be part of the problem.

My parents taught me how to consume alcohol responsibly from what I am sure you would consider a very young age. I can assure your I never reached any of your conclusions, and trust me, I never confused my parents with my friends.

Actually in most states it's legal to drink within your own home with your parents. So you are not teaching they are above the law...

And once again, extreme much? Actually, my dad did hand me a loaded gun, when he was teaching me how to safely use it. You see, parents in Alaska do that sort of thing, because they don't want their kid eaten by a bear.....

Sorry, but if you get to use hyperbole I do too.

Same here. My father taught me how to shoot, and how to drink in moderation. I sipped beer with him a number of times, watching sports, but never to excess, nor did I ever even consider drinking and driving, though many of my peers, forbidden to drink by their parents, would drink plenty on their way back from the liquor stores, where they had bought a case or two on fake IDs. Nor did I drink and ride a motorcycle, or handle a firearm.

Yeah, I'd hand my kids a loaded gun and I'd be willing to let them drive a motor vehicle at the right time in the right place... No loaded guns off of the range, no driving on public roads without a permit/license. Is that so hard? I'm not one of these freaks who associate an inanimate object with a bad behavior pattern or a potentially mind altering substance.

Sorry if the truth hurts.

I truly hope that this is a sarcastic comment...

nope. If you "need" alcohol to cope, you have a problem.

I don't believe he said he "needed" it, he said he enjoyed it. Totally different thing.