gtrude1 ~~ What I see the young man saying, is that he's not directly responsible, but rather, because he didn't go forward and tell his story at the time he was being bullied, or talk to someone about the bullying so that he could have gotten some support and help, in turn maybe he feels that if he had done this, perhaps it would have been one more strike against the bullying issue.

And another thing I'd like to add gtrude1, you sound just like a bully, as well.

gtrude1 - were you bullied? you sound very bitter. or perhaps you are the bully and now see the "writing on the wall"...meaning that you know you have to keep yourself in check or suffer the consequences of your actions. either way, either way, it must suck to live in your head.

oh, and no sarcastic responses are necessary...

Don't feed the trolls, folks.

Please...you fight back tears because someone somewhere was 'bullied'? I don't tear up at all, not because I am heartless, but because HE ultimately chose the path he took. NOT me.

And so we see the truth of my statements. The bullying begins with us, like those in this forum who for whatever reason feel empowered by hiding behind their computer screens and spewing their hatred to the world.

you fight back tears because someone somewhere was 'bullied'? I don't tear up at all, not because I am heartless, but because HE ultimately chose the path he took. NOT me.

Really? So someone FORCED the roommate to bully the guy? Sorry, sweetie, but if the guy who committed suicide has to take responsibility for that, the roommate has to take responsibility for being a bullying, loser a-hole.

gtrude1- What's the matter honey? Wake up on the wrong side of your prison cot?

Good one Bluelake.

@flbikerchick...I wasn't commenting really about the case at all, just about the fact that someone apparently 'tears up' everytime he hears about Clemente.

You are exactly right, the roommate DOES have to take responsibility for what he did, BUT HE DID NOT MAKE CLEMENTE COMMIT SUICIDE. Harrassment, yes. Privacy, yes, but those should be the only things...a lot of avenues that Clemente could have taken but did not.

Indigo - you are only commenting on the case of the gay student, it seems you blame him for his bullying because he was gay? With your logic it is OK to drive a gay person to suicide or to commit violence upon them? What are the avenues Clemente could have taken? Gone to the Uni Ombudsman and talk about his sexual preference? He would have to bring the sex tape footage to prove his case - Would you like to do that your freshman year of college, have the Ombudsman watch you have sex (on tape)? There is a reason why rapes at Universities are under reported - the victim is put on trial again (whether gay or straight) and chances are the bully will get nothing more than a "warning." Being videotaped without your knowledge and having it passed around (or not) is more than an "invasion of privacy" - it is more akin to getting raped. Invasion of privacy is going through someone's cell phone or computer.

This taping is "willful negligence" - your lack of sympathy simply because of a person's orientation is disgusting. I hope you never have a child or grandchild who IS BORN gay (because that's how it goes)!

Indigo: So you are saying my being bullied in school was my fault because I chose the path to be bullied?

I chose to move 2-5 times per school year?

I chose to be a year younger than everyone else in my class?

I chose to be from a family which did not come across with the original pioneers in Utah?

I chose to be smarter than most other students?

I chose to be tall?

I chose to go through puberty in 10th grade?

I chose to have a patchy beard and not be able to grow sideburns in the 70s?

I chose to have curly hair?

I chose to move into a neighborhood that didn't want my father there?

I chose to be whatever their reason was for needing to hurt someone else?

Your kind of thinking is what is wrong with America. It may be about choice, but sometimes it isn't a choice we have a say in. Your thinking is what keeps so many in poverty and social backwaters. Something needs to change, and it is you and those who think (disgustingly and poorly) like you.

Where precisely and exactly, did I say anything about his being gay? I did not, did I? I commented on what the OP stated. Why don't you get on them about not 'tearing up' about Phoebe Price? Gay or straight, woman or man, NO ONE CAN DRIVE YOU TO COMMIT SUICIDE. That is a choice YOU alone make.

If he could not tell others he was being harrassed (because of the examples you cite) then WHAT? HOW can someone resolve a problem they didn't know was occurring? Please explain. Please don't try to 'preach' to me about rape statistics...I have worked with rape victims for over 10 years, but guess what? If I don't know that it occurred, then NO ONE can be of help...you have to reach out to get help. What they did was despicable, but don't blow it up to more than what it was: invasion of privacy and harrassment.

I think it is pretty laughable that you presume to know about my circle of friends, family, and my own orientation based on a couple of comments, but I will let you wallow in your ignorance.

@Daryl, YOU, and ONLY YOU, can choose to take your own life. That is what I commented on. Not sure how that morphed in your mind to 'choosing to be bullied', but that is stretch you made not me.

@Indigo: No, but keep telling yourself that. It's how the bullies in school get through the day without hating themselves for their sickness. You are a hateful person. You just refuse to see or accept it, no matter who or how many other people point it out to you. Try shutting your mouth for a few minutes and reading what others have said. You might find that you don't like yourself as much as you think you do.

But I doubt it. People like you are so full of themselves and their love for all things them that you and they will never accept any degree of responsibility for your own thoughts and actions.

And the though of someone with your mentality working with rape victims terrifies me. You are the kind that will tell them that it was their fault because they dressed or acted like sluts. Either that or you are looking for an easy date.

Daryl, in your world, he had no other option but to kill himself, right? Having the roommate 'out you means that you have to kill yourself? There were NO other avenues he could take? This I especially love:

But I doubt it. People like you are so full of themselves and their love for all things them that you and they will never accept any degree of responsibility for your own thoughts and actions.

Thank you for saying EXACTLY the same thing I am: HE is responsible for his own thoughts and actions, NO ONE ELSE. You have confused the fact that I say 'take responsibility for your actions' with 'it must have been okay because he was gay'...I in no way said anything of the sort. What his roommate did was despicable (as I said earlier), but he had a myriad of options OTHER than to take his own life.

As for my working with rape victims, you again, would be wrong. I have been told that I helped them 'get their power back' by having them make sure they have a rape kit done at the hospital; make sure the detectives talking to them do so respectfully; follow up with them on resources available for counseling; in the rare cases that someone was caught, talking to them about the different options around testifying in open court. They were given the power to make their own decisions in each of these matters, where during the rape, they were not. They were able to assert themselves and not be under the 'rule' of the feelings of inadequacy and self-doubt, and to know that they have the power to make themselves stronger. When you are a child, a lot of decisions are made for you. Part of being a grown-up is to determine the path that you want to take, or, if you choose to, make your own path. He chose the worst one he could.

Wow, I didn't even read the last sentence, but now that I have, seems that I have wasted all my words above. Now, I could go tit-for-tat, but, I won't. You can wallow as well.

Indigo: You have obviously been in the popular kids group since the day you were born. Have you ever lost someone you care about to suicide? Have you ever considered suicide? Until you do and have, you have no right to speak on this subject. I lost my little brother and two of my three brothers in law to suicide. My baby brother was as strong as anyone I have ever met and as loving as they come, but he could find no way out of his financial problems without asking for help, and being raised to never ask for help he had no other choices. I have thought about and tried to kill myself more than once when I was a teen and being bullied. I am still amazed that I didn't go through with it when I brought guns to school. I knew who to kill and who to let live, and I was ready. I don't know why I didn't do it, and I'm glad I didn't. But I will never have sympathy for those who get their thrills by hurting others, or those who protect them over their victims.

Simply because someone chose the wrong response to a bully does not in any way excuse the bully or those (like yourself) who protect and cover for them.

And yes, you have wasted your words. Because they come from arrogance and hate, and I will never follow the words of selfish people again.

Daryl...would it matter if I lost someone I knew to suicide? Would it matter if I said I had attempted it myself? Again, you presume to know my life and you have no knowledge about it at all.

You have spewed hateful comments about me ('disgusting'/'easy date') but I have not done the same to you. Yet you say I am 'arrogant' because I have the audacity to say that YOU are responsible for YOURSELF. You say that you tried to kill yourself...BUT YOU DID NOT. You knew who you could have gone after to kill in school, BUT YOU DID NOT. You CHOSE not to do those things. I am assuming that you decided there was a reason to live. You decided there was a reason not to go after those who had bullied you. Whatever that reason is, it is a positive step forward. When you start with positive steps, positive things will happen.

This is my last post to you. It is YOUR CHOICE to keep walking around thinking that self-worth and self-responsibility is a bad thing. What Clementi could have done with his LIFE is help change the culture, not be a martyr for it. He could have helped bring beautiful music in the world, but we will never know his talents. There were a TON of things that he COULD have done, but he CHOSE not to.

Every society has its flaws and they are constantly evolving. None is perfect. Please cite me which of the nations you are speaking of that has "superior" youth? I'm curious. I don't deny what you're saying about US culture at all, but I'm skeptical that the youth of other countries have that much of a moral edge.

No one has a moral edge. As long as the adults are also bullying each other in forums like this across the world, teenagers will be doing it as well.

Nope. Common, not buying it...you make judgements about American youth based on what you read, and discount what you SEE. If you go to a coffee house, or Target's, or Mickey D's, there are young people working there. Young people I personally know volunteer their time as Big Brothers/Big Sisters, or help in a hot kitchen to feed the homeless. There are TONS of American young people that go to school, study hard, have a part time job and are responsible in that job, go on to college, etc etc. The reason you don't read about them is because they are not in trouble.

Unfortunately, American society has morphed into a mentality undermined with hate and negativity. Almost comically but too real to be funny, younger generations do not know how to communicate beyond superficiality and self-induced drama. This superficial mentality grows with each generation with the help of movies, music, TV and as the people themselves become nothing more than superficial, numb parents. "No punishment" is also an enabler. We are programmed in this direction.

They should read Aldous Huxley's Brave New World, a much more accurate portrayal of the direction our society is headed than Orwell's 1984. What you're describing is pretty much what Huxley predicted would happen.

Actually I believe evolution is taking us the other way. We are going from a violent and agressive species to one which uses intelligence and social caring to build a better world for all. Unfortunately, I also believe that the majority of us a neadertal throwbacks who believe the thinking was done for them by their religious betters and who believe their only way to prove themselves is on the backs of others.

I also have the misfortune to beleive that humanity is a failed experiment and that we are doomed to extinction because of these same hateful people.

Um, Elizabeth Marie, there's something you should know:

The two teenagers who killed 13 people and themselves at suburban Denver's Columbine High School 10 years ago next week weren't in the "Trenchcoat Mafia," disaffected videogamers who wore cowboy dusters. The killings ignited a national debate over bullying, but the record now shows Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold hadn't been bullied — in fact, they had bragged in diaries about picking on freshmen and "fags."

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2009-04-13-columbine-myths_N.htm

Columbine is definitely a warning about the dangers of bullying being taken too far, just not in the way you'd expect.

Coming from a coach this exemplifies the situation we are in. Most bullies are athletes. Now, that doesn't mean that all athletes are bullies, but the mentality that coaches love is the same violent agressive mentality that leads to bullying.

Until coaches and athletes start taking responsibility for their own actions, they deserve what the get.

I must admit. My favorite high school memory 35 years later is still the day I blacked both eyes on the school's favorite sports hero and he had to walk around for a week showing what happens when you pick on someone who fights back. It did suprise me though that when his buddies teased him about getting beat up by me he went after sophomores rather than come back for more.

So, coach, go back to your class and teach them how to pick their victims better. Maybe they can find some who don't have guns or who won't fight if they listen to you.

Personally, I believe that bullying should be exposed for the mean spirited, terrorist, abusive issue that it is. It's been ignored, hidden, and not taken seriously far too long.

Having said that, I also think it's important to balance the issue equally, while making sure that there is some type of resources as well as recourse that could help address the issue, aiding all those involved. The victim of course, and also the abuser needs some enlightenment. The bully, terrorist, abuser grow up to be the wife beater, the child abuser, the intimidator at work, the crazy aggressive driver etc. It's a real issue with potentially serious consequences all the way around. Indeed it does take a village.

There are laws to protect adults from harassment, physical intimidation, assault, libel and slander. These behaviors are as "old as civilization" as well. Why do adults deserve protection under the law, but not children? Why is it that a child having difficulty dealing with these attacks must be over entitled, in your view? In the "real" world of adults you refer to, there are consequences perpetrators must face for committing these acts against another adult. But not so among children. If there is any group not being prepared for the real world, it is the bullies.

People hurting other people either visibly or non visibly is wrong and should be prosecuted.

We already have laws in place to do this. What you are in effect saying is 'if you bother me, I will report you and punish you'...so now YOU are the bully with this promise of punishment. Do you not see this?

Indigo, what a stupid person you are, so the Law is a bully HA.

Janitor, I am hardly stupid...if you don't believe that laws currently in place are a deterrent, than you are the idiot. Apparently your reading comprehension is not the greatest either, as I did not say the 'law' was the bully, but those who would then promise to 'use the law to prosecute' those they perceive as bullying THEM would then themselves become the bully. The OP thinks that the laws in place are not stringent enough, and we need to have more where 'hurting other people either visibly or non visibly should be prosecuted'. What this result in is, a child saying they were 'abused' because they had their Playstation taken from them, or someone happy about the fact they are pregnant could conceivably be 'abusive' to a couple trying to have a child. The point being, that where and who draws that line to determine when something is abusive? When you say 'prosecute people for visible and non-visible abuse', you are going down an extremely slippery slope.

I agree with you also Common Sense - children in European countries and Asian countries have longer school days, are required to learn much more (think of how many languages they start learning in first grade), have more homework, are divided into classes based on intelligence so that no one is bored, etc. They do not have pep rallies and homecoming King and Queen type crap - sports are for summer vacation not the "essence" of the school. I could go on all day about how even "third world" countries put learning way ahead of anything else with the exception of manners. American children are spoiled brats (and bullies).

NVArt ~~ Using the "rod" as you put it, as a form of discipline, happens to be much more than mere physical (abusive) striking of a child. Parents need to set boundaries, BE CONSISTENT, issue consequences, hold children accountable, and make them responsible for their bad behavior. Of course, the best lesson that a parent can teach, is to SET A GOOD EXAMPLE.

Small children, teens and young adults need DISCIPLINE. Discipline comes in many forms, and doesn't have to mean physical contact. If a parent is at a loss as to how to do this, then GET SOME COUNSELING, TAKE A PARENTING CLASS, READ A PARENTING BOOK, and apply the things that will work in your household. There are programs out there designed to help parents.

Um, actually kids who are subject to corporal punishment tend to be more likely to bully, from what I understand. It's about discipline, moderation, consistency, being involved and being a ROLE MODEL in how you conduct yourself day to day as a parent. The "rod" is for morally lazy people who can't be bothered to live their life as an example to their children.

@floridamom1: Online you can simply ignore, you can report abuse or you can respond to the hateful trolls. In public school, or even in college to a lesser degree, your choices are more limited and these are kids, not adults.

I don't even waste my time beating bullies any more. It isn't because they don't deserve it, it is because I learned over 52 years that there will always be another bully to beat bloody and that society prefers bullies over everyone else. Look at politics to prove that, office or elected politics at that.

IS it better that I now, instead of bloodying a nose, get someone fired because I know they are about to play personal politics at work? Or that I give his wife a quick phone call in a woman's voice so that he has problems at home to think about rather than to cause problems for me at work? No, but it is the adult way to deal with a bully. Unfortunately, they don't teach you these things in school, and parents don't always teach it either. It also leaves me with a nasty taste in my life. I have stooped to their sick behaviors rather than get them to come over to the nicer side of life.

I fully agree with you on your last two sentences though.

My daughter is being bullied. The last child to do that in 8th grade was branded a snitch! Made the problem even worse. Most people won't even speak to the "snitch" now.

Mike Silverman: Read the comment above yours. This was my experience as well. The bullies are rarely punished, the victims are nearly always punished further when it gets to the teacher or principal, and as Cindy pointed out below you, the victim gets the snitch/rat label and things just get worse.

So your solution... and that of many others, as you are clearly not alone... is to out-bully the bully? Been there, done that. Snapped in the 7th grade, beat up the school bully -- especially embarrassing for him, as I am a girl. Sure, he never bullied me again. But I lost quite a bit of self respect that day for stooping to his level. If someone is doing something bad, the answer in civilized society should never be to do what they are doing, only do it worse. I know. We are not a civilized society. But a girl can dream, can't she? Wouldn't it be so nice if we could be civilized? Given a choice, I'd rather live as if we are civilzed and hope against hope that all the other cavemen (and woman) out there will eventually catch up. What's the alternative? We all spend our whole lives mired in the mud, slinging wads of the gooey stuff at each other because that's all anyone understands? No thanks.

@saddened: I'm sorry to hear that you lost self-respect over your successful overcoming of a bully. You clearly come from a wholly different background in terms of how we think about this sort of thing. Personally, you would have elevated yourself in my eyes for having 1) stood up for yourself and 2) taken down a bully which probably benefitted your entire "society."

I have long imagined that I would eventually rise either through age or achievement to a level of society where everyone was "civilized" and behaved like mature human beings. I made it to law school and discovered that it is simply impossible. Uncivilized idiots are present at every stratum. Thus, while we strive to behave ourselves in a civilized manner, sometimes it is unfortunately necessary to resort to the base animal nature of humans to protect civilized society. On a macro scale, that behavior is called "war." On an individual level, it's self-defense. But, there's no reason you should feel that being forced to defend yourself against an uncivilized person makes you any less civilized. I admire your egalitarian outlook, but at some point you'll have to recognize that some people are really little more than rabid dogs and must be treated accordingly for the good of civilized society at large.

I hate to say this but I taught 2nd grade for a year in a private school. Many of the bullies were popular kids whose parents were always chaperons etc. and found nothing wrong with their little angels. So when I sent said "angel" to the principle (after two warnings) for picking on a student who was not popular, I was reprimanded myself by the Principal. It left me with little power - the best I could do was to reward the unpopular kids with "coveted" classroom jobs and stickers on their homework - and treat the bullies like they didn't exist (unless they did something nice) - it worked to a degree but that was 2nd grade, it would not have done a thing in any grade over 4th. I had no problem telling a parent that their child was obnoxious, the problem was that the parent tolerated or ignored that behavior in their child and expected me to do the same.

That's just unreal....people have been in a state of mass delusion and mass denial about alot of things for decades. No point in arguing...you can't disagree with the delusional. I have moved many times in my life, trying to get away from messed up people. Good luck to you and your family...I hope you find a place where you all can be happy.

I saw exactly that when I taught - if a child had ADD or ADHD medication - the child was labeled by the Administration (and usually their teacher) as a "bad" child. I had the "bad" class with half on ADHD meds - I had NO problem with them in my class but if they left for Art or something with another teacher, they always came back with a negative slip (that they did something wrong) that had to be signed by the parent. So, I started to spy on the Art teacher - it was always a popular brat who started something with one of the "labeled" children.... if the labeled child said "stop it" - they would get in trouble. I spent hours calling parents telling them that I witnessed the incident and their child did NOT cause it etc. I backed up the parents when they complained to the Principal - I got in trouble... my advice (since this was a private school) was that the parents move to a different school and NEVER tell anyone if the child has ADD or anything that will get them labeled - yes, that's ridiculous but the only way to protect the child.

Jerry, I feel so bad for your daughter. I know the schools do nothing to protect the innocent. Fortunately she has you to teach her that she is worthy of love and respect. Hopefully as she gets older she will realize that she does NOT need the acceptance of the "mean girls" in order to be happy with who she is.

Since she is a junior in high school, though it may be more expensive, send her to an out of state college. This will lessen the chance that some of her current schoolmates will be able to continue their harrassment, and she will be able to blossom.

Is she involved with activities outside of school? Getting her involved with activities away from school (not school teams or clubs) may be helpful as well.

My theory is that there are two types of bullies: the arrogant type and the low self-esteem type. I speak from experience because I faced both types of bully in middle school.

A boy in my 6th grade class called me Hitler's wife (his actual words were "If you want to see Hitler's wife, look in the mirror) and I asked my dad for help. He told me to dish it back, so the next day I said something to him that I now regret saying. I won't post it because I don't want to get hit by the mods, but I think you can guess what it was. Eventually the tough girl in our class intimidated him, and he didn't come back for 7th grade. Sometimes he seemed arrogant, but I believe it and the bullying were an act to cover up low self-esteem.

Later, in 8th grade, one of our teachers was injured and couldn't work for quite a while, so we had a revolving door of substitutes. One of them was young and cute, and I had a crush on him as well as nursing a crush on a classmate I'll call Matt for about a year. While I was telling my friends about my sub crush, a boy in our class eavesdropped. He then used the facts that Sub Crush was married and I had a crush on Matt to call me an adulteress (again, his exact word). That was too much to bear, and I jumped up and started screaming at him in the middle of class. I said it was just a crush, I wouldn't actually act on it, I didn't want to break up Sub Crush's marriage, it's possible to have more than one crush at the same time, and I wasn't abandoning Matt. By the end of my rant I was screaming and crying at the same time and had to ask Sub Crush to excuse me to clean up and calm down in the bathroom. I didn't get in trouble because unlike the first bully, this boy had a history of meanness. I believe he would be the arrogant type, and my mom theorized that maybe he called me an adulteress because he had a crush on me and was upset that I had two crushes and neither of them were on him.

Additional facts: Both of these bullying incidents occurred in a Christian middle school. Matt had a crush on me back, but because of the limits of the school and his more conservative family, all we could do was subtle flirting like secretly smiling at each other. The Sub Crush bully was also in my 6th grade class from the first paragraph. In 6th grade art class he told the entire class he was going to kill himself in front of all of us and proceeded to stab himself in the palm with a pair of safety scissors-not exactly an effective suicide attempt, more likely boredom or attention-seeking. I didn't mention the fact that me acting on my crush on Sub Crush would be considered statutory rape because that wasn't the point the bully was arguing. The Sub Crush bully's history of meanness included accidentally-on-purpose cutting off part of his little brother's finger by slamming it in a door. It was accidentally-on-purpose because he meant to slam his brother's finger in the door but didn't know the door would slice it, and the brother got his finger reattached. I knew this brother and another little brother of theirs, and the younger boys were two of the nicest kids you could meet. My friends supported me throughout the incident and Matt didn't mind that I had simultaneous crushes on him and the cute sub. We kept flirting until junior high was over and we ended up going to different high schools.

Sorry for rambling. I just wanted to tell the full story of my bullying experiences.