David Rimer? Such a tragic story...

Well...it's strange. What messages are they giving their older sons by making such a big deal of keeping the baby's gender "private"? Will they think that gender is something to hide or be ashamed of? The fact of reality is, humans are either male or female and are genetically and physically different, and you can raise your kids to be free to wear whatever they like to wear, and participate in whatever activities they like to participate in, without forcing gender specific clothing or activities and still acknowledge their gender to the world. I would think they are risking their kids gender identity health in the whole drama, truthfully. Even though the baby has no idea what they are doing at this time, it seems like a really bizarre thing to put on their other kids, and would have more ill effects in the long run than anything positive. When are they going to "allow" the brothers or the child to reveal the gender? It almost seems like the parents want attention or something. If I had tried to keep my third child's gender a secret from everyone except the immediate family, my other kids would certainly have been asking "why?".

Also, they are setting their kids up to be teased and made fun of by other kids...how is that good parenting? The little boy in the photo is adorable, but he does look like a girl with the way he is wearing his hair. Most kids like to fit in with their friends and dress similar to the other boys, and so I have to wonder if the hair style and dress is more the parent's idea or the little boys? Little kids like to please their mom and dad, so if he thinks a certain dress, hairstyle or "non-gendered" attitude makes mom happy, he may gravitate towards that even though it may actually not be what he would choose if he was not being influenced in this way. Maybe the parents are actually giving the boys the feeling that their male gender is not O.K., even though that is not their intent, acccording to what they say. I think these parents are risking a lot of potential psychological damage and harm to their children...the whole thing seems incredibly strange...bizzare....and misguided.

Sylko wrote " It's not like that doctor who botched a circumcusion, gave the kid a sex change and told their parents to raise the boy as a girl. That was appalling. "

Could be that the child was born with both sets of genitals or even lost the penis due a circumcision gone wrong.

The part about this that I am most curious about is not what gender this child is but why so many people feel upset that they aren't privy to the "secret". Those of you that are so upset and concerned need to get a life or at least a hobby. Like volunteer at a soup kitchen or something that will validate your concern for others. Leave these people alone, it's there lives and they aren't hurting their children.

If they lived here in California, no one would think twice. Folks would say, "Whatever ... they're hippies." The kids would grow up fine, have long hair, wear funky logo t-shirts like "make love, not war", surf the pacific, extreme showboard, and eat vegan.

relax people.

My Gawd!!! .... That's CHRIS MATHEWS!!! Just take another look at that picture! I ain't lying.

Saywhat @ 1.5 has got it right. How come so many people are determined to know what the child's sex is?

IknowthatIdontknow...

I don't think it is that so many people are "determined to know what the child's sex is"...it is an article about gender conditioning and discusses these parent's choice to raise their children in a "non-gendered" approach. Many People like myself are interested in child/parenting issues and research, and are discussing all aspects of the non-gendering approach that this article about this family is reporting. Pretty much, I think a lot of people encourage their children in this way, and can agree that it is good to allow children to pursue activities and interests without regard to gender specific condtioning...if a little girl wants to play little league baseball and likes wearing blue jeans...and a little boy loves to bake cookies and play with dolls...that is great...in this day and age, it is also very common and accepted. I think where these people loose many of us from what the article reports, is when they decide to "hide or conceal" the gender of the child from the rest of the world, as it is a part of the child's identity and seems a strange way to teach authenticity and independence to a child (and particularly the older brothers who are old enough to understand and have to "participate" in the secret). In my opinion, it is healthier to acknowledge the child's gender as a part of who they are, and also acknowledge that regardless of the child's gender, he is free to explore activites and clothing of his choice. Making such a big deal of it just seems to be counterproductive to what they are claiming they want to give their children. That is my opinion on the idea, but personally I do not care or need to be told what gender their baby is, and I don't think most people do. If he is a boy though, they could be giving their older son's the perception that a girl was preferred since now after two boys, with a third child, they have suddenly decided to "keep 'it's' gender secret", and that would not be good for the boy's emotional/psychological health.

As a female , and when a child, I was a "tom-boy" and played many "boy" type activities and hung out with my brothers and other boys...I didn't need anyone to tell me that was acceptable or "hide" my gender...and I don't think I would have wanted to be referred to as "it". I was perfectly OK with being a girl who liked sports, running around in the woods, climbing trees and wearing my brother's blue jeans and t-shirts. I grew up to be a mom of four kids who were all allowed to be who they wanted to be, as well. It just doesn't have to be such an issue as these parents are making it seem.

for the record, circumcision of infant boys never "goes right". think of all the terrible parenting you have seen in your life, how does this woman's insistence on letting her children be themselves whatever that is compare on the scale of wrongheadedness? right, leave her alone

It's unconventional, that's for sure. But, then again, being conventional is no guarantee of being "successful," whatever that is. Personally, I don't understand why anyone would be upset about not knowing a child's gender. After all, it really is none of their business.

Look at it this way, it's an experiment. How long can they go without everyone else knowing what the kid's gender is? Hey, bookies, this might be one to take bets on. But, really, who cares. I don't know the gender of millions of kids. In fact, I don't really know of their existence. So why should it be important for me to know this kid's gender?

The way they're going about it is confusing to the children. There are other ways to raise children with a sense of equality when it comes to sex. There are plenty of clothes that are more or less unisex without going overboard and ditto for toys. Our daughters were never into dolls, nor did we ever buy them any (they received some as gifts). One of their favorite toys was a toy dump truck with which they spent hours playing in the yard. They wore dresses when they wanted to and when the occasion called for it. They grew up to be strong-minded women, totally secure in their bodies, and happily married. It looks to me, however, that these children are brought up totally without structure. Structure has nothing to do with sex. Indulging children in everything leads to selfish, unhappy, and in their case, confused adults who may have trouble adapting to a society where a certain amount of conformity is the norm.

I have been out many times and complimented someone on their beautiful child and simply asked, "Is it a boy or a girl?" An innocent question... Will they say, "None of your business" or will they give me a speech on gender identification? When the child goes to start preschool or school, do they plan to not check a box on the form? I am sorry, but this is just weird. The saddest part is we are giving these people a platform to broadcast their peculiar mindset to the rest of the world. I suspect the child will grow up to be strange, because the apple generally falls pretty close to the tree.

So if I tell my kid he's a human and not a lemur its species stereotyping?

ThunderProof, LOL!! Totally Chris Matthews.

KJR, I agree with you 100%. There is a distinct difference between hiding what gender they are and letting a child choose his or her own likes, interests and tastes. You can encourage your child to be an individual without hiding their gender from the world. It just seems a bit odd to me...but hey, they're free to do what they want with their own children. I just hope it doesn't back fire on them.

I am with 1.5. Why does anyone freaking care about how these people raise their children? Get a life people.

BTW. That baby does look like Chrs Matthews... he may have some "Xplainin" to do to his wife. LOL!!!

Why?

holy sh!t,......watch the movie called CAMP HIDEAWAY.

The child is a boy.

The child is a boy.

Correct! You can tell by the length of the ring finger relative to the index finger. The ring finger is longer on males, and the first picture in the article which shows the baby's hand clearly shows this. It's a boy.

Perhaps it's no coincidence that they've had three boys now and have "issues" with raising the boys with a normal sexual identity. It's almost as though they REALLY wanted a girl and are too deluded to cope with the reality they've been dealt. I see they're willing to "force" their children to conform to other societal norms, such as wearing clothes, and they've probably forced them to defecate in predefined locations as well. How very hypocritical...

Either way, I hope their kids get out of that house ASAP and into a family that is sane enough to actually prepare them to function in society. What they are doing to their children's social development is nothing short of criminal neglect.

I hate to break it to you, Dave, but I'm very definitely a straight woman, no gender issues or anything, and my ring finger is longer than my index finger. So is my husbands, my infant son's, and my mother's. I don't know where you got that unusual little tidbit but it's not true.

I think the child is a boy too. From the first time I saw the picture, I said "boy"!

It's a well known dimorphic trait in the sexes that is extremely common. The length of the various fingers is believed to be affected by exposure to androgens while in the womb, which varies between the sexes. Of course, as with most rules, there are exceptions to this one. You've apparently inherited a genetic variance through your mother's side of your family.

A simple google on the subject will yield you many references. Here's a few:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digit_ratio

http://human-nature.com/nibbs/02/manning.html

Why not just drive out to Banff or Jasper hike out to the back country and drop off the kids so they can be raised by wolves? I believe there was a case, in Europe of a young boy discovered living among wolves in a wild state. No speech no socialization no human acculturation. Doctors believed he would never reach an acceptable level of life skills. They were wrong! He is now a wall street investment banker!

Thanks for the references. It was interesting to read about, as I'd never heard of anything like that before. However, I don't exhibit any of the personality or physical traits that are predicted, and I would have to assume that there are a lot of other women like me with the 2D:4D digit ratio. Neither of your references offered much in the way of statistics or percentages of the population, but both made it sound like the "more masculine" digit ratio wasn't very exclusive to males. In fact, the second reference said this: "There is, however, substantial overlap between the sexes with respect to digit ratio. It is not uncommon for a man or woman to have a digit ratio that is typical of the opposite sex."

So although I'm glad you helped me learn somethin' new today, I don't think you can predict the child's gender with any degree of certainty based on that alone.

If you DO think this is important, just think about how many other things you are imposing on your OWN children

Yeah, that's called raising them.

They have a right to bring up that child as they wish as long as no harm is coming to a baby. However, if someone choses to teach their child the norms of the surrounding culture, as been done since humans first roamed the earth, there is nothing wrong with that neither. Many offspring have a lot of pride in their culture. Ultimately they will decide to accept them or not.

Personally, I don't know what's so healthy about letting a boy dress like a girl so the other kids can ridicule and outcast him. There goes his self esteem.

Wanting to know the gender is not voyeristic or an interest of what's between the baby's legs, but it's just another way of getting to know that baby as a person.

The whole thing is very unusual. .

"There goes his self esteem."

Poppycock. If one's sense of self is based on approval of others, that is not self-esteem. It's people pleasing which is ultimately destructive especially for children. It is one of the favorite tools of pedophiles.

Self-esteem is the internal certainty that I'm okay no matter what you think. It is both sadly lacking and misunderstood in our society. People with authentic self-esteem are often viewed unfavorably by others who are accustomed to operating in/with manipulation.

I had an interesting experience not so long ago. I was visiting a friend at her hair salon -- not a customer, just a visit. There was a man there getting his hair cut. His type was obvious : large and in charge. At least, in his own view. He made a snarky comment about my hair cut which, of course, I ignored. He was not going to let it go. I finally stated clearly that his opinion was of no interest to me, in fact, I don't care in the least what others think. He was flabbergasted. He kept insisting that everyone cares what others think. He was actually creating a scene to demand agreement with his point of view. Finally, my friend / owner of the shop said " I've known ______— for 20 years. What other people think really doesn't matter to her at all".

This is not to say that I am rude or disrespectful or inconsiderate. In fact, not being dependent on others to take care of my ego eliminates the need for the games most people play.

Yeah, good Andy the freethinker.... create freaks of society and then push them out so they get the chit kicked out of them on the playground.

Smoke another... Canadians are so fuggin weird.

well, I'm sure the boy will get his answer when he ask his father as to why in the hell is water shoot out of this tiny little elephant trunk between his legs.

Why is it all of a sudden, a bad thing for parents to teach their kids who they are and introduce them to the culture which they live. Aren't THEY the parents? Don't they get a say so in how they want their child raised as long as it's not abusive?

Say what you want but kids at school are cruel and anyone who does not fit into the culture will get chastise, excluded and even physically harmed. The zebra stripes don't have to match exactly but their should be some sort of similation. That's just how it is. Why do those parents equate others inquiry about the gender of the baby with only being interested in what's between their childs legs. That's a disgusting way of putting it. People asked as a way of getting to know that child. Gender is a big piece of knowledge. I so hope the parents at LEAST instructed that boy which washroom to go into.

People asked as a way of getting to know that child.

Actually, for most people, gender isn't a part of the relationship. For a potential mate, yes....but that should certainly not be for a number of years yet. For a doctor, yes....but most people only have one of those as well.

jkatze, are you really serious or just a troll? If everyone decides who he or she is, explain to me why we have CULTURES, and everyone isn't COMPLETELY different from each other. By your logic, I should find an equal number of people just like me in England, Zimbabwe, and Afghanistan. I'm pretty sure I won't, because SOCIETY predominantly shapes who we are.

Wool-Z, are you really serious or just a troll? Sorry, what a horrible thing to accuse someone of, I apologize.

How many billions of people are we and you think we should all be the same or conform ourselves to be what our CULTURE determines what we need to be? Do you life in these United States? Have you not seen how diverse we are?

I for one am an individual. I live in a very religious community where most of the men have short hair and no facial hair. Needless to say I dress differently and have a full beard and very long hair. Am I some kind of freak or simply someone who decided to be myself in spite of the fact that everyone around me is a clone.? I'm also a single father raising my own son. What a freak!

You are welcome to think what you want but so is jkatze, myself and the parents of this child. Believe in yourself, be yourself and free yourself from this narrow minded viewpoint. Unless you really are a troll, I hear they can't help who they are.

Allow SOCIETY to dictate to you who you are, as long as that makes you happy. I hope that someday you find the strength to be your own person.

I think this whole thing is great. If all the jerks out there could lay off these parents and this poor kid and quit being all freaked out because they are choosing to not be societal clones, then this baby will have a unique freedom to actually decide for itself what it likes and dislikes. Eventually, yeah, the world is going to ruin that for him/her and all of the kids out there who have been programmed by their parents to ridicule what is different will get to this kid and make him conform. But until then, I hope the baby enjoys his/her life with what seems to be a very caring and understanding family. Kudos to them.

Saywhat, I AM my own person, believe that, and if me not wanting to see these kids get beat up, or, more likely, much worse makes me narrow minded, one of us needs to redifine the term. I come from a very liberal family, and to be honest, one of the oddest ones I know. I'm still considered an odd guy now because of how I dress and express myself. The difference between myself and those children are I'm AWARE of the repercussions of my choices and can remove myself from situations if the need arises, whereas those kids cannot. You said you have a child. Do you not tell him he may get into trouble with other people if he does something they don't like? Of course you do; these people do not. It will hurt their children. We can all agree that the world should be sunshine and lollipops, but conversely, we can all agree it is not. Or is it obversely? Man, I use WAY too many commas...

Wool-Z

Seriously, get a life.

I got beat up as a child, because of my fathers work we moved constantly. Usually every 3-4 months. 19 different schools before I went to college. I didn't have to defend myself at every new school because I was transgendered or raised by idiot parents. I fought my way through school because of the a$$wipe kids I went to school with.

Do something they don't like? They didn't like the fact that I was breathing. Do you understand that? You can't protect yourself from someone who is irrational, bigoted, stupid or violent against everything they don't like, understand or feel comfortable with.

And I will be damned if I am going to raise any child to "conform" to be what you and others see as normal and comfortable for you. Live your own life and stop dictating to others how they should be.

I was the new kid. I wore different clothes, I spoke a little differently, I was a little bigger, but mainly I was DIFFERENT than the kids they grew up with and obviously THEIR PARENTS taught them that it was OK to be violent to any one who was different.

Honestly, look at these posts. These so called adults, including yourself, are making judgement calls. You think you don't pass those attitudes to your own kids? To your neighbors and friends? Nieces and nephews?

Get into trouble? Really? This kid is 4 MONTHS OLD! How long do you honestly think this experiment will last?

I don't know about you but I don't pay attention to the gender of the kids across the street. When I come home I look for kids out in the street so I don't run them over but I couldn't tell you what gender they are, how old they are or how many of them they are. I DON"T CARE!

For any of you to be upset about this is ridiculous and by all means run with it. But seriously, if you are so concerned about children's welfare go coach some. Be a Big Brother. Adopt. Get a life and do something positive instead of making up fantasies about someone you don't know and pretending you know how bad they are screwing up their kids.

Do you have any? I've raised, or partly raised nearly 20. Please give me some advice. By all means have the audacity to tell me how to raise my son. I encourage him to think for himself and not be defined by people such as yourself.

Redefined.

Poppycock??

Charnage--no so. You are not born with a religion but you are born with a gender. These parents make it almost seem wrong to be one or the other. My children were not indoctrinated with religion, nor with overt sexuality as seems to be increasingly the norm, notably with girls. They are normal, happy and mercifully non-religious adults, confident in their skin and sex. It is absurd trying to raise a child by constantly trying to avoid such terms as "my son/daughter" and "he/she" or "his/her."

Thanks for the explanation. This will save me from having lots of kids.

That was heavy man....... I want what Wolf is smokin'.....

just good ol recently legal medical weed, ....I'm so totally wasted.

Interesting...I've never seen it expressed as equations before...........

That would be true in most cases. However modern science avoided that with test-tube babies.

This thread looks more like 4chan than Newsvine...But thats OK.

That is the first question that came to my mind but its obviously not the case since there are certain comments and patterns in the way they are bringing up the older children that show there is a mindset that is warped and totally wrong. And this is not healthy. There are things that a child does not choose. Gender is determined by more than the way he/she "feels." What if they choose to bring up a child to determine how he feels about stealing or about murdering and just let the child go with that "preference"? There are moral issues in life that are not our choice but previously established. And there are also cultural norms that must be observed regardless of our feelings about it all.

In another article they said the child has all the external sex organs of one sex, which I took to mean the baby is not a hermaphrodite.

". . .there are also cultural norms that must be observed regardless of our feelings about it all."

Is that so? Sorry to burst your balloon but that is only your opinion. How a person feels relative to gender is the basis of their gender identification. How often do we read of a person who says 'I never felt comfortable in the body of_____' e.g. the gender society tells them they must observe.

Of course, homophobes can't except that. In their world, it's all cut and dried, so there.

anyone else find this story a bit creepy?.....If not scary? This is like a repeat of a horror movie. We will find out in thirty years if these kids grew up to be serial killers.

homosapians - "warped and wrong"? Odd, very liberal sure. But there are people out there right now teaching their kids about being beaten or starved for no reason or raped by those they should be able to trust. Better to be raised by hippy liberals then sadistic bastards!

It's parent's choice, keep the snooty public and government out of it.

If the kid turns out normal..OK, if the result is another nut case,....TFB!

Slightly off topic, my cousin had THREE Kids,.. ONE of each.

What if they choose to bring up a child to determine how he feels about stealing or about murdering and just let the child go with that "preference"? There are moral issues in life that are not our choice but previously established. And there are also cultural norms that must be observed regardless of our feelings about it all.

Did I suddenly step into the Twilite Zone or something?

How do you go from these people not telling you what sex their few month old child is to them teaching him/her that it's ok to murder?

I give up. This is like talking to my ex-wife or a Republican.

It's somewhat difficult keeping the government out of the picture. That child was bagged and tagged (Birth Cerificate & Social Security Number) when it was born.

What's the problem with not teaching them to conform? They are not breaking any laws or harming their kids in any way. They are right, some people are just so judgmental.

They will be judged no matter what. That's how society rolls. The parents are just giving more to judge.

I agree completely Sue. These mouth breathers can make up all the BS they want about how "only the person can define themselves". We are humans, and for the most part pack animals. We set societal norms, and when someone steps outside them, they are made pariahs. Why not raise the children to fit as expected and allow them to decide for themselves when they're less susceptable to their parents misguided (in this case) indoctrinations? This is a case of irresponsible people turning their progeny into a social science experiment. I'm all for people expressing themselves, but at least don't set them up for failure so early. Society WILL judge those poor children, so give them a chance now before they hit middle school.

And LivSears, you're completely wrong. They ARE harming their children, because EVERYONE is judgemental. But I'll tell you what, if you can promise me your first reaction isn't a wtf when someone introduces their little boy michael, who is dressed in pink with pigtails and a skirt, I will completely defer to your ridiculous claims. Remember, these aren't adults or teenagers, who are able to understand the reactions of others around whom they'll spend their lives to their choices, these are BABIES.

They ARE harming their children, because EVERYONE is judgemental.

Speak for yourself. You ARE harming their children and everyone else because YOU are judgemental. Why? Can you not control that WTF reaction in yourself?

Those of you that feel it ok to call them crazy or unfit or anything are the ones with the problem. You do not have the right to make others conform so you feel comfortable about yourselves. Live and let live.

And while you are at it maybe you should look in the mirror, under your bed and in your closet to see if your ideal society might have a problem with who you are and what you are hiding. Why else would you be so judgemental unless you yourself were ashamed of something in your own life?

Mouth-breathers? Really? No class. You dictate how others should behave and all you do is insult and demean. When you have a clue come back and teach the rest of us how to behave and interact. You are worried how society will look upon others yet this is how you represent yourself?

Totally agree SayWhat. We are forced everyday to suppress ourselves out of fear of judgement (and i'm talking about non violent things that we enjoy that doesn't harm anyone). People can control themselves and need to stop running their mouths on people that don't fit in.

Saywhat, LOL I'm VERY comfortable with who I am, and I have a VERY unique way of expressing myself (if you ever saw me in a crowd, I can assure you I would stick out). Yes, I am incredibly worried about how society will judge the children of parents whose minds are in the wrong place. Did you not go to public school? I was a pretty normal kid and I even caught a bunch of flak. Those children deserve a fighting chance, not to be turned into experiments by their parents. What's going to happen the first time that little boy gets beat up? The second? I will be the first to apologize for the mouth breather comment, but it's incredibly upsetting to see people like you who blather on about freedom of expression as grown adults without thinking about the children, who are at the heart of this issue. It's OUR job as parents to help our children to be well adjusted. I encourage my children to express themselves, but when they were little and bonds were being formed with the other children, I took measures to make sure they wouldn't be permanently ostracized. I guess you wouldn't understand though, as you must have sprung forth from the womb fully grown with a college degree in a commune. Also, looking over my last comments, I never made any comments as to a perfect society. I'm just not wearing my blinders, as you are, to what society is and does.

Very reminiscent of the Saturday Night Live skit done years ago about the character named "Pat".

Wool-Z

Yes, I am incredibly worried about how society will judge the children of parents whose minds are in the wrong place

I can only assume you do not know these people as you did not make any reference to knowing them. You also did not identify yourself as being an expert in the field of psychology so your assertion that their "minds are in the wrong place" carries no weight other than your own opinion. As the saying goes... everyone has one.

but it's incredibly upsetting to see people like you who blather on about freedom of expression as grown adults without thinking about the children, who are at the heart of this issue.

First of all, I don't "blather" nor am I not thinking of the children. I have had a lot of experience working with "well meaning" adults who think they know what is best for other peoples children.

You have shown nothing that proves these children will be beaten up or wronged in any way because of their parents. You have made judgement calls and presented yourself as someone who not only knows them but myself as well.

I took measures to make sure they wouldn't be permanently ostracized.

Please enlighten us parents who don't have that gift. The world is a cruel place and any of those of us who have lived in it would agree with that. You have some secret to keep the children safe? Please share it, I will give you every thing I own.

I guess you wouldn't understand though, as you must have sprung forth from the womb fully grown with a college degree in a commune.

Laugh out loud, I assume that must be an attempt at a joke. You do realize at over 200 pounds and half a century old that would have been devastatingly hard on my own mother. Of course you do. But all sarcasm aside I do have life experience and know that the attitude YOU express is much more harmful to not only these children but to the community at large.

If you aren't part of the solution you are part of the problem.

I'm just not wearing my blinders, as you are, to what society is and does.

You my friend are what society is and does. I have no blinders. I see exactly how judgemental and wrong your attitude is. THIS CHILD IS 4 MONTHS OLD! And you have already seen in your magic crystal ball that he is going to be beaten repeatedly at school. My crystal ball tells me it will be by your children because you will teach them the same intolerance that you've shown here. I hope not.

Other than the last point, whatever man. I give... I taught and still teach my children to accept people for who they are, and this springs from having one who is extremely special needs and is still subject to ridicule from others. My whole point is it's a parents job to provide structure and foundation, and allow them when they reach the age of reason to decide whether to go against the norm or not. As per your argument up the page, you DO realize I'm not just referring to the infant, but the little boy in pigtails and pink, right? I don't give a flying crap what danger is brought to society, only these children. You claim you're thinking about the children, but at this point, it does not seem so...

We defiantly see things differently. I do find it sad though that you can't see how judgemental you are. Your comments show how you really feel and how you don't respect others.

I taught and still teach my children to accept people for who they are,

I find that hard to believe considering your comments.

These mouth breathers can make up all the BS they want

That doesn't sound like you accept people for who they are. Or am I missing something?

Then the comments you made about me for disagreeing with you. You didn't come back with a discussion about what I said but made comments about me as a person.

When pointed out that you might have been a little over the line you back up and with a but you go on to insult me.

I will be the first to apologize for the mouth breather comment, but it's incredibly upsetting to see people like you who blather

Seriously, if you can't be mature enough to have a conversation and show respect for other adults how can you possibly teach appropriate behaviour to your kids? Incredibly upsetting that I have an opinion. Sorry to upset you.

Again, if you are so concerned about these or any other children, examine your own attitude towards them and don't pass that on to your children. Children do learn from their parents example and the words and attitudes coming out of your mouth are heard and usually copied.

Who really cares if any of these kids show up to kindergarten in a pink dress and pigtails? Those of you that as adults decide it's wrong and pound it into your kids when you talk like you did above. If you call people names like mouth breathers here I'm fairly certain you talk like that in life.

Name calling is childish. Thinking that others should "conform" to society is short sighted. You make claims of accepting others but then want them to change to what you think will be accepted. That makes my head hurt.

Honestly, I am not saying this for negative reasons. I hope you will at least think about it. I once was a very angry, violent person. Things happened to make me look at how I viewed life. I changed and decided to be a positive influence and my life and that of those around is much improved.

Have a good day either way.

Quick question..when the parents take their child school shopping for the first day of school..Are they going to let the kid roam free around the store to find that pink dress or are they going to take their kid to their "genders" dept to find some new clothing? It's just how society goes and has since the beginning of time. I believe the problem with the world nowadays is that too many people want to push every boundary they can.

I honestly don't see it as people pushing boundaries as much as people living there own lives.

It's just how society goes and has since the beginning of time.

Society's evolve as people gather together for various reasons. Usually those reasons are to combine resources and labor. Protection from a common enemy, steady food and water supply etc.

When we live alone we have to provide everything for ourselves. As a member of a society we share the burden and the results of those burdens. That way the shoemaker can make shoes all day and go to the market and buy food that someone else grew or hunted.

With that arrangement there is a trade off. As a group the society has rules or laws. Everyone can do what they want as long as they don't break those laws. The shoemaker can't steal the food.

But he and his kids can wear all the pink dresses and pigtails they want. At least until "Society" makes a law against it. It really doesn't matter what anybody else thinks. Really. And if someone attacks them for it then that person is in the wrong, not the little boy in the pink dress.

I think that everyone is making to big a deal out of this. Live and let live. These kids will probably "conform" before long and adopt the same narrow minded view as most of the people speaking against them.

How many kids or adults who used to be kids didn't play dress up? Until some angry, uptight, grownup came along and said things that caused you to be afraid to be yourselves. Sad but true for a lot of people.

They refer to the child as Storm. They just say the name in replacement of him and her. They are not calling attention to the child. It's other people that are so enslaved to what they perceive as normal that won't mind their own business.

Fair enough. I just don't get it. But at the end of the day it's not my kid so what do I really care. Bottom line, they have a healthy kid. Mazel tov.

The kids going to be around 26 yrs old wearing helmets and sh!t in their diapers.

Wouldn't it be funny if 25+ years from now this kid became the Grand Omnipotent Stomper of The New World Order and you wish you had kept a copy of all these silly comments?

why bother...I would've committed suicide already.

HA! C'mon Wolfie! Not a chick magnet like you! I've been enjoying your postings. Say it ain't so.

In 25+ years I'll be old enough that I would need a plastic surgeon to surgically lifted my nutsacks so it wouldn't be banging against my ankles.

I might be wrong....but I get the sense of a very strong feeling of uneasiness that there are quite a few angry gay men here on this thread just waiting start an argument. No sh!t.... my gaydar detector is going off like crazy. I must be right.

It's almost a bad as the situation 100 years ago, when boys usually wore pink and girls wore blue - thank god we fixed that problem or our children would still be wearing the wrong colors and we would all be doomed!

It's too confusing if we don't force everyone to fit into a narrow social stereotype.....bigots and fuddy-duddy moralists otherwise wouldn't know whom to hate.

There are moral issues in life that are not our choice but previously established. And there are also cultural norms that must be observed regardless of our feelings about it all. There are social norms that are expected for a reason, and we must live with them.

Where does this become a conflict with moral issues?

How does this possibly conflict with your viewpoint of cultural norms?

Where is it written in stone that social norms are expected for a reason and we must live with them?

I'm sorry but there have been a number of unique and successful people in our culture that have stepped outside the norm. It isn't your call to make. Leave them alone, they aren't bothering you except in the narrow minded viewpoint you have. Stop losing sleep about them and get a life of your own. Who knows, you might even enjoy it.

What about the millions of other kids out there being "experimented" on by parents who have no clue? Kids don't come with owners manuals and parents do what they do. What is so special about these parents that is going to screw up their kids so bad?

044110 - Until I have to help pay, via taxes, for their kids being locked-up or for psychological treatment.

That's the way I feel about Christian wingnuts who home school their kids.

Chances are they will even boastfully display bumperstickers on their vehicles which read:

"THE PROUD PARENTS OF ~ HOME SCHOOL VALEDICTORIAN!"

I suspect the bumper sticker would more likely read:

Proud parents of a homophobic, climate-change-denying Cretinist.

These people some how strike you as right-wing nutjobs?

When friends came up with names for their babies, they ran the names past a male friend who would recite every odd, stupid, unkind thing kids could turn the name into. He was really good at it and some of them decided against names and instead chose simple names cretins couldn't do too much with. Certainly Storm, Jazz, Apple, Moses, Kal-El and Pilot Inspektor could've benefited from the help of my friend.

"Gender" involves a great deal more than plumbing.

btw All zygotes are female. At 7-9 weeks, a chemical wash works on the zygote to cause development of male genitalia.

Geez, jkatze, and all this time I was SURE that the x or y chromosome from dad decided the gender at conception. Silly me.

It is true that the gender is determined at concept...but I think jkatze meant that the actual male genitals of the zygote do not begin to form until around the 7-8 week period? You can't *tell* the baby's gender before then, but it is still male or female before the genitals form.

jkatze is right. ALL zygotes and early embryos have externally female genitalia. Boys/Men start out with essentially ovaries which change and descend as the embryo develops. They also start out with two openings between the legs - one of which usually closes up as the embryo develops (if you look at the area after birth you can actually see a sort of scar where the opening knit together on men). You still can NOT tell a baby's gender on ultrasound until about 16 to 20 weeks because the proto-parts don't really start to resemble the external genitalia until around 14 weeks and don't more fully resemble the genitalia until later.

They're both right. Gender is determined at conception by the x or y chromosome from the father. The genitals do not begin to form until later in the development of the fetus, but regardless of whether they have formed or not the fetus is already genetically a male or female.

Storm's case will be jus another reinforcement of gender simply being sex-based biologically-determined behavior. The parents will only accomplish the opposite: no amount of coaching will make their daughter the top football player on the men's team, world chess champion, top robotics reseracher or someone that will risk their lives for a woman they don't even know.

The parents would not have had to 'defend' their choice if they had kept their decision as private as they are keeping the infant's gender.

The parents made the issue public.

It does not seem that privacy was the goal.

But what if it likes boys and has a penis?

what the hell???

But what if it likes boys and has a penis?

Some people will invite him to parties, and others will attempt to beat him to death.

Julie-1468472 - But what if it likes boys and has a penis?

In a scenario such as the one you question - The child's name would be Barney Frank. : )

sorry buddy, you lost me after the first sentence.

All i'm saying is....teaching a child gender roles isn't necessarily going to mean that child will identify with that gender. Say its biologically a male. Teaching it to live by male gender roles doesn't guarantee the child will grow up and identify itself as male (hence transgendered people). SO....I support their decision to not biological sex the determining factor in how raise their child....let the child decide what gender roles it's comfortable with.

and i'm not saying this child...or any of their children are transgender. I'm just saying, children should be able to explore gender roles and choose what they like without people shaming them. And if the family thinks not telling people the child's gender will help, then i'm all for that.

If that boy goes to school wearing pink and sporting bonnett......he's going to get the crap beat out of him. As if these kids doesn't have enough to worry about of peer pressure growing up.

wolfrpack2000,

Maybe in your world that was true once upon a time...things change and we've got to start somewhere. Its not like these gender role enforcement concepts are working out real well for a whole lot of people who don't fit them. The 'That's just the kind of guy I am' excuse doesn't cut it anymore.

Do you think it's ok that some parents raise their kids to be the sort of person that would beat up on another kid who wears pink and sporting a bonnet? What does that say about the gender enforcement crowd?

remember the movie CARRIE, in the shower sceene where the young girl was having her period and thought she was bleeding to death and the rest of the girls were all laughing at her like she was crazy? I certantly do not want to see any kids going through something like that growing up or do I want any kids to become a victim of bully. If you want to dress your little boy in female's clothing and send them off to school is your call. I'm just trying to prevent kids from being harrassed and bully. Growing up as a kid can be tough enough.

When the girls throw rocks at boys, will they throw the rocks at Storm half of the time?

"Men are not better at anything, sure they have more physical strength but that means little or nothing at all"

It certainly is important to you because it that means that women are not expected to do half of the hard manual labor. Are women better than men at anything?

" is no longer considered "property" of a man. Bravo! Let's let sexism die!!!!"

A child, particularly the unborn, is considered to be the property of a woman according to many US family laws.

B Garcia wrote "My children will always be my children no matter what they chose to do and I will love them just as much"

Unless, of course, your child votes Republican.

Unless, of course, your child votes Republican.

All children do stupid and even dangerous things to rebel against their parents, but eventually most grow up, lose their infantile selfishness and vote Democrat.

culheath wrote "most grow up, lose their infantile selfishness and vote Democrat"

The rest get a white collar job with their college degree.

B Garcia, I am glad that I had an upbringing that included "roles" and related expectations because these parameters gave definition to my world as a child. I am also glad that a sense of self worth was instilled in me which allowed me to depart from some of that as I got older. We may not want to raise children who are rigidly locked into traditional boy-girl roles, but we do want to raise children who are mentally strong. Having no definition is as silly as having rigid ones. How strong will children be if all parameters are removed regarding gender when they are young? The parents mentioned in this article wouldn't give their children car keys and tell them to learn to drive on their own, yet they have no qualms with letting them find their way through life on their own in terms of gender. Having some gender-related role playing when growing up gives us a sense of self that we cannot achieve on our own. The goal shouldn't be raising kids who are definition-less or border-less, but to shape society so that those borders and definitions are flexible. We are social creatures, like it or not, and parents, peers and the larger society ALL shape who we are. We are not who we are because we, at the tender age of three, made that decision alone.