I strongly support legal recognition of the human rights, bodily integrity, and autonomy of pregnant women to make decisions about the health care and medical treatments to which she will consent. The U.S. Supreme Court has upheld the right of competent persons to decline medical treatment, and courts have also held that no person can be compelled to submit to medical treatment for the benefit of another. These are basic constitutional rights to life and liberty that are implicated. A woman does not lose her constitution and human rights simply because she becomes pregnant and chooses to continue the pregnancy to term. The concept of a forced cesarean section, with the woman tied down screaming "I do not consent to this procedure," while she is forcibly anesthetized and major abdominal surgery (which carries a three-times higher risk of maternal death than vaginal birth) is forced upon her -- this concept must be repellent and horrifying to citizens of a country that was founded on the basis of those rights to life and liberty. And yet, some local courts and judges are being manipulated by hospital attorneys into ordering pregnant women to do absurd things -- such as months of compulsory bed rest for a single mom who has a full-time job and two older children (which happened a year or so ago in Florida, even though evidence based studies prove that bed rest is not effective to prevent miscarriage).
Disgusting, without a question. What I find doubly disturbing is that the picture you've drawn is the exact same that some pro-life proponents use to describe forced abortion. I suppose it's slightly less traumatic to force a birth method than it is to force termination of a wanted pregnancy, but it's still a brutal removal of all control from the mother. I hate to jump the shark and make a totally sensationalist comment, but to me such a thing strikes the same chords are sexual abuse and slavery. I apologize to any women who take offense to that statement, but this really does seem horribly wrong to my heart of hearts.
Women are made to give birth vaginally, not through an abdominal incision. The vagina is made for the passage of offspring, and when all goes well, it heals and allows the mother to recover quickly. I know that sometimes things don't go so well, and some women do need cesarean sections, but a doctor should never make the decision to C-sec lightly. It sounds to me like there was no problem with this woman's pregnancy, so I have to ask what the heck what going through the doctor's mind when he made that call. We don't cease to be human beings when we get pregnant, and the same goes for when we enter labor!
Not sensational....in the "birth world" it is referred to as "Birth Rape" and before those who don't agree with this statement, I did not come up with it but it does fit. What would you say if you told someone not to stick their hands in your vagina and they did anyway? Rape? Sexual Assault? Why does that change just because someone has some letters behind their name or because something is suppose to come out of there? Women have the right to say no to any and all things being done to her period. Letters behind their name does not give them the right to have their way with our bodies. They still need permission!
Oh my gosh. I am totally shocked by this. This is why all of mine will be born at home from now on. My midwife does breech deliveries all the time. I doubt very much that the breech delivery was the cause of that babies death in Pittsburgh and anticipate that it will be very difficult to prove. Breech birth is normal birth. Period.
It's just one more way the government is tryin to abuse its power. I was fortunate enough to deliver both of my kids without any complications but only a women who has given birth knows what emotions they are experiencing. I believe that the mom should be able to make the choice and that the court shouldn't be able to get an injunction to have custody of the baby just because she chooses something different then the doctors.
While I would never have a homebirth, I totally feel its a mother's right to choose how she wants to give birth. I'll be damned if I let someone tell me what I can and cant do with my own body
Wow - thank you for this rather disturbing article! At least we are asking the right questions about ethics, rights, and informed decision-making. The ability to legally consent requires the ability NOT to consent - otherwise, it is force or coercion. Furthermore, it is disrespectful.
A pregnant alcoholic crack addict doesn't get arrested for harming her unborn child. Another woman wants to avoid drugs to ensure the healthiest birth for her baby and the doctors have a fit.
I have worked with children with voice boxes and others stuck covering their entire body with clothing despite the heat outside because their STD ridden mothers refused to be burdened with a stomach scar. I also have a Catholic mother who had an ectopic pregnancy rip open and was bleeding to death refuse to sign the consent for an emergency abortion. The only reason she lived to raise my brother and I is the Doctor told her she would pass out from the pain before the medicine could course thru her system and when it did he would hand the consent form to my father. So while I can say as a woman entering her seventh month of her second pregnancy that I have rights and one of them is to make decisions about my healthcare or lack thereof I can also see that we are not as knowledgeable as Doctors about health issues and sometimes their better judgment deserves to override our wishes.
The problem is, for every doctor who has a medical OPINION, you will find a doctor or midwife who disagrees. The woman in the article, despite the fact that she had given birth to very large babies, was going to be forced in to a cesarean! I am sure there was at least one doctor or midwife in the area who would have completely disagreed with the hospital's assessment. Medical opinion is just that, OPINION.
I am shocked that a hospital would try to force a C-section on a woman whose medical history proves that there is absolutely no need for it! Were the doctors listening when she told them that she'd had babies bigger than this with no complications? I am even more shocked that they went so far as to seek custody of the baby! On what grounds was that granted??? Just because she makes a decision about her labor and delivery, it has no bearing on whether or not she'll be a good mother! There is no abuse or neglect of her older children. If the doctors disagreed, their course of action should have been to allow the woman to labor normally and monitor her closely. IF a problem arose, THEN push for the c-section. Until there is an ACTUAL complication, it is the patient's choice how to proceed.
She deserves a public apology from the hospital, if not the court, too. They behaved so badly that she, while in labor, left to find another hospital. How absurd! Good for her for doing that! Shame on the doctors AND the courts!! I wonder how much evidence the judge was given before the decision was made to take this woman's baby away. I'm so glad she proved them all wrong!
I find this hospital's actions totally reprehensible. Especially the fact that the mother did not have the ability to legally defend herself prior to the order being issued. The system needs to change that anyone would be submitted to any medical procedure against their will without first having legal representation to dispute it. We give more rights to our criminals than a sane woman making a choice that is rightfully hers to make about her body.
This doctor just wanted to make money on the c-section operation. Instead he ended up costing the hospital money by hiring an attorney in an attempt to force this pregnant woman into the operation. Gee, I wonder why healthcare is so damn expensive in this country!!!!
Nobody will do anything to apprehend a pregnant alcoholic crack addict. Try to avoid drugs and surgery to give your baby the healthiest start, and you're a danger to your unborn child.
Something tells me we're not getting the entire story here. It seems highly unlikely. I wouldn't be surprised if the mom tested positive for GBS and is so obsessed with having a vaginal birth that she'll go to any lengths to do it.
Even if the mother was GBS positive it does NOT warrant an automatic CS. Even having GD (gestational diabetes) doesn't automatically render a woman not capable of delivering a child vaginally.
Some women are "obsessed" with giving birth vaginally because it is the SAFEST for not only mother but for baby as well.
I was obsessed with having my first VBAC because the recovery from my CS was beyond horrendous. You bet your butt that I would have walked out if I was forced to have another CS that was not warranted. I had an unassisted birth for my youngest for this exact reason (different state from my original one that I had no problems getting).
I had GBS and had a perfectly normal vaginal birth. There is no reason to go to c-sec in 90% of births. Size is definitely not a reason off the bat, most of the time they are wrong anyway. Always try to deliver vaginally and see. Also I have had several friends do VBACs, all successful. C-secs are ordered far too often in some parts of the country, some hospitals. I was glad to find my hospital with a very low c-sec rate. GBS and GD are can be factors in your health but absolutely not a definite determination.
What a random, unrelated and idiotic remark, TieDyeJedi. Yes, women are loose, making decisions to kill their babies! You gotta be a doc--except that you prolly meant GD, not GBS. Either way, totally bogus remarks.
Jedi, that was a pretty ignorant remark. Even if she WAS Positive for GBS, it certainly does not mean she has to have a cesarean. And why, after she's already given birth easily six other times before, is she suddenly in the wrong for wanting to do it this way again? I'd say by now she knows her body, and nothing about what this woman was saying sounded irrational or uninformed. To the contrary, everything the hospital suggested/attempted to force on her sounded completely irrational and uninformed. There is NOTHING evidence-based in what they were trying to get her to do.
This is wrong on SO many levels! I am NOT in favor of the rights of abortion, BUT if in the minds of the law it is legal for a woman to KILL her child in the name of Choice at any time before birth, HOW IN THE WORLD is it the right of the courts to swoop in and take over for the life of a baby when the mother is seeking the safest way to BIRTH??? If it is her CHOICE to MURDER this baby, it is surely her CHOICE to BIRTH her baby as she CHOOSES!!!
Abortions wouldn't be a problem if people and politicians would just get smart about birth control . . .
But you've hit the nail on the head for both issues: the image of a woman screaming and protesting, begging even, and some person (in this case, a doctor) saying, "Hush now, you're not equipped to make this decision. I know what's best for you," is a pretty scary one. It goes for women faced with forced abortions, forced pregnancies (which are actually on the rise, and are more and more often the whim of a boyfriend rather than a husband), and forced decisions about what to do with their bodies, since they obviously can't make informed decisions on their own.
You throw that "murder" word around, but in this case you really don't need to. Trying to scare people into thinking the way you do about premarital sex isn't needed when the topic at hand is already pretty darn frightening. Women have fought, and are still fighting, to be seen as something more than pieces of flesh to be owned and controlled by men. In a way, that's what the abortion argument is about: men can have all the sex they want without any repercussions (and men will break in with the "child support" wailing, when in truth most fathers never pay a dime no matter how much the mother needs it), but the moment women act in the same manner as men, when the natural result of unprotected sex occurs we're told to go home and act like the baby farms we are. I hate abortion, but I don't hate it nearly as much as the implication that I'm not really a person with thoughts, feelings, and a will of my own. That's bad enough, but now you're taking a seasoned mom and trying to coerce her into a nasty medical procedure meant ONLY as a last resort . . . well, that's when we go from insulting and degrading to reckless and dangerous.
There is a big difference between a woman who has had several normal, healthy births and drug addicts and neglectful mothers. One has proven herself responsible, and the others have proven themselves incapable of making good decisions.
Having been given the choice of an inducted vaginal delivery or a c-section 17 years ago, after spending the latter part of my first pregnancy with gestational diabetes, AND given the possible scenarios if I decided to go with the inducted vaginal delivery (ranging from a difficult delivery to my baby dying in the birth canal because the shoulders and chest of a gestational diabetic baby most often are too large to fit through it), I chose the c-section. I had waited a long time to have a baby (I was 33) and I wasn't going to risk HER health by being SELFISH. It was the right decision. As the nurses who had assisted in the delivery were cleaning me up afterwards, one of them leaned over and said, "you made the right choice. You would have never delivered that baby vaginally." Sometimes medical personnel do know best. While this woman may have successfully delivered 6 other large babies vaginally, this particular doctor may not have been present durin those deliveries. He was using his experience and expertise to arrive at his decision. That IS what we pay them for...
Sometimes they do know better but as demostrated in this case, sometimes they are wrong. After I birthed my eldest child who was 6lb 9oz, I was told "you will NEVER birth a baby bigger than 7lb vaginally". I birthed my beautiful 9lb 3oz girl in my bedroom, into my mothers hands 2 years later.
I believe in this case, after an established track record of 6 other children born naturally & healthy under similar circumstances, the mother being of sound mind, there is NO slippery slope. This hospital & whatever Dr. Quack made that call should be punished for this. But of course they have no comment, there's no comment they can make that would support their extremely poor decision in this family's case. Totally different, for my first & only child I had only dilated to 5cm after 14 hours, the baby's heartbeat was erratic, the medical staff urged a C-section, & although I was reluctant, there were just too many unknowns for me to deny it. They were probably right, & my son was born healthy & has been ever since. I could NOT risk his life for my preferences--but again mine is like the opposite case.
Pray remember, we now live in a time when the State of New Jersey kidnapped three healthy, developmentally-normal, well-cared-for children from their parents at gunpoint; then proceeded to do the same with a fourth child literally hours after her birth; because the Department of Child "Welfare" disapproved of the kids' NAMES. As far as the minions of the State are concerned, We the Peons are chattel, and are to be treated accordingly.
I strongly support legal recognition of the human rights, bodily integrity, and autonomy of pregnant women to make decisions about the health care and medical treatments to which she will consent. The U.S. Supreme Court has upheld the right of competent persons to decline medical treatment, and courts have also held that no person can be compelled to submit to medical treatment for the benefit of another. These are basic constitutional rights to life and liberty that are implicated. A woman does not lose her constitution and human rights simply because she becomes pregnant and chooses to continue the pregnancy to term. The concept of a forced cesarean section, with the woman tied down screaming "I do not consent to this procedure," while she is forcibly anesthetized and major abdominal surgery (which carries a three-times higher risk of maternal death than vaginal birth) is forced upon her -- this concept must be repellent and horrifying to citizens of a country that was founded on the basis of those rights to life and liberty. And yet, some local courts and judges are being manipulated by hospital attorneys into ordering pregnant women to do absurd things -- such as months of compulsory bed rest for a single mom who has a full-time job and two older children (which happened a year or so ago in Florida, even though evidence based studies prove that bed rest is not effective to prevent miscarriage).
Disgusting, without a question. What I find doubly disturbing is that the picture you've drawn is the exact same that some pro-life proponents use to describe forced abortion. I suppose it's slightly less traumatic to force a birth method than it is to force termination of a wanted pregnancy, but it's still a brutal removal of all control from the mother. I hate to jump the shark and make a totally sensationalist comment, but to me such a thing strikes the same chords are sexual abuse and slavery. I apologize to any women who take offense to that statement, but this really does seem horribly wrong to my heart of hearts.
Women are made to give birth vaginally, not through an abdominal incision. The vagina is made for the passage of offspring, and when all goes well, it heals and allows the mother to recover quickly. I know that sometimes things don't go so well, and some women do need cesarean sections, but a doctor should never make the decision to C-sec lightly. It sounds to me like there was no problem with this woman's pregnancy, so I have to ask what the heck what going through the doctor's mind when he made that call. We don't cease to be human beings when we get pregnant, and the same goes for when we enter labor!
Not sensational....in the "birth world" it is referred to as "Birth Rape" and before those who don't agree with this statement, I did not come up with it but it does fit. What would you say if you told someone not to stick their hands in your vagina and they did anyway? Rape? Sexual Assault? Why does that change just because someone has some letters behind their name or because something is suppose to come out of there? Women have the right to say no to any and all things being done to her period. Letters behind their name does not give them the right to have their way with our bodies. They still need permission!
Oh my gosh. I am totally shocked by this. This is why all of mine will be born at home from now on. My midwife does breech deliveries all the time. I doubt very much that the breech delivery was the cause of that babies death in Pittsburgh and anticipate that it will be very difficult to prove. Breech birth is normal birth. Period.
It's just one more way the government is tryin to abuse its power. I was fortunate enough to deliver both of my kids without any complications but only a women who has given birth knows what emotions they are experiencing. I believe that the mom should be able to make the choice and that the court shouldn't be able to get an injunction to have custody of the baby just because she chooses something different then the doctors.
While I would never have a homebirth, I totally feel its a mother's right to choose how she wants to give birth. I'll be damned if I let someone tell me what I can and cant do with my own body
Wow - thank you for this rather disturbing article! At least we are asking the right questions about ethics, rights, and informed decision-making. The ability to legally consent requires the ability NOT to consent - otherwise, it is force or coercion. Furthermore, it is disrespectful.
A pregnant alcoholic crack addict doesn't get arrested for harming her unborn child. Another woman wants to avoid drugs to ensure the healthiest birth for her baby and the doctors have a fit.
Welcome to American obstetrics.
I have worked with children with voice boxes and others stuck covering their entire body with clothing despite the heat outside because their STD ridden mothers refused to be burdened with a stomach scar. I also have a Catholic mother who had an ectopic pregnancy rip open and was bleeding to death refuse to sign the consent for an emergency abortion. The only reason she lived to raise my brother and I is the Doctor told her she would pass out from the pain before the medicine could course thru her system and when it did he would hand the consent form to my father. So while I can say as a woman entering her seventh month of her second pregnancy that I have rights and one of them is to make decisions about my healthcare or lack thereof I can also see that we are not as knowledgeable as Doctors about health issues and sometimes their better judgment deserves to override our wishes.
Three points:
The issue of pregnant women with STDs is a totally separate issue.
One wonders what the cost was to your mother of not having her wishes followed.
Many doctors actually know very little about health issues and they certainly don't always have better judgment than the patients.
The problem is, for every doctor who has a medical OPINION, you will find a doctor or midwife who disagrees. The woman in the article, despite the fact that she had given birth to very large babies, was going to be forced in to a cesarean! I am sure there was at least one doctor or midwife in the area who would have completely disagreed with the hospital's assessment. Medical opinion is just that, OPINION.
I am shocked that a hospital would try to force a C-section on a woman whose medical history proves that there is absolutely no need for it! Were the doctors listening when she told them that she'd had babies bigger than this with no complications? I am even more shocked that they went so far as to seek custody of the baby! On what grounds was that granted??? Just because she makes a decision about her labor and delivery, it has no bearing on whether or not she'll be a good mother! There is no abuse or neglect of her older children. If the doctors disagreed, their course of action should have been to allow the woman to labor normally and monitor her closely. IF a problem arose, THEN push for the c-section. Until there is an ACTUAL complication, it is the patient's choice how to proceed.
She deserves a public apology from the hospital, if not the court, too. They behaved so badly that she, while in labor, left to find another hospital. How absurd! Good for her for doing that! Shame on the doctors AND the courts!! I wonder how much evidence the judge was given before the decision was made to take this woman's baby away. I'm so glad she proved them all wrong!
I find this hospital's actions totally reprehensible. Especially the fact that the mother did not have the ability to legally defend herself prior to the order being issued. The system needs to change that anyone would be submitted to any medical procedure against their will without first having legal representation to dispute it. We give more rights to our criminals than a sane woman making a choice that is rightfully hers to make about her body.
This doctor just wanted to make money on the c-section operation. Instead he ended up costing the hospital money by hiring an attorney in an attempt to force this pregnant woman into the operation. Gee, I wonder why healthcare is so damn expensive in this country!!!!
Nobody will do anything to apprehend a pregnant alcoholic crack addict. Try to avoid drugs and surgery to give your baby the healthiest start, and you're a danger to your unborn child.
I don't understand American obstetrics.
Something tells me we're not getting the entire story here. It seems highly unlikely. I wouldn't be surprised if the mom tested positive for GBS and is so obsessed with having a vaginal birth that she'll go to any lengths to do it.
Even if the mother was GBS positive it does NOT warrant an automatic CS. Even having GD (gestational diabetes) doesn't automatically render a woman not capable of delivering a child vaginally.
Some women are "obsessed" with giving birth vaginally because it is the SAFEST for not only mother but for baby as well.
I was obsessed with having my first VBAC because the recovery from my CS was beyond horrendous. You bet your butt that I would have walked out if I was forced to have another CS that was not warranted. I had an unassisted birth for my youngest for this exact reason (different state from my original one that I had no problems getting).
I had GBS and had a perfectly normal vaginal birth. There is no reason to go to c-sec in 90% of births. Size is definitely not a reason off the bat, most of the time they are wrong anyway. Always try to deliver vaginally and see. Also I have had several friends do VBACs, all successful. C-secs are ordered far too often in some parts of the country, some hospitals. I was glad to find my hospital with a very low c-sec rate. GBS and GD are can be factors in your health but absolutely not a definite determination.
What a random, unrelated and idiotic remark, TieDyeJedi. Yes, women are loose, making decisions to kill their babies! You gotta be a doc--except that you prolly meant GD, not GBS. Either way, totally bogus remarks.
Jedi, that was a pretty ignorant remark. Even if she WAS Positive for GBS, it certainly does not mean she has to have a cesarean. And why, after she's already given birth easily six other times before, is she suddenly in the wrong for wanting to do it this way again? I'd say by now she knows her body, and nothing about what this woman was saying sounded irrational or uninformed. To the contrary, everything the hospital suggested/attempted to force on her sounded completely irrational and uninformed. There is NOTHING evidence-based in what they were trying to get her to do.
This is wrong on SO many levels! I am NOT in favor of the rights of abortion, BUT if in the minds of the law it is legal for a woman to KILL her child in the name of Choice at any time before birth, HOW IN THE WORLD is it the right of the courts to swoop in and take over for the life of a baby when the mother is seeking the safest way to BIRTH??? If it is her CHOICE to MURDER this baby, it is surely her CHOICE to BIRTH her baby as she CHOOSES!!!
Abortions wouldn't be a problem if people and politicians would just get smart about birth control . . .
But you've hit the nail on the head for both issues: the image of a woman screaming and protesting, begging even, and some person (in this case, a doctor) saying, "Hush now, you're not equipped to make this decision. I know what's best for you," is a pretty scary one. It goes for women faced with forced abortions, forced pregnancies (which are actually on the rise, and are more and more often the whim of a boyfriend rather than a husband), and forced decisions about what to do with their bodies, since they obviously can't make informed decisions on their own.
You throw that "murder" word around, but in this case you really don't need to. Trying to scare people into thinking the way you do about premarital sex isn't needed when the topic at hand is already pretty darn frightening. Women have fought, and are still fighting, to be seen as something more than pieces of flesh to be owned and controlled by men. In a way, that's what the abortion argument is about: men can have all the sex they want without any repercussions (and men will break in with the "child support" wailing, when in truth most fathers never pay a dime no matter how much the mother needs it), but the moment women act in the same manner as men, when the natural result of unprotected sex occurs we're told to go home and act like the baby farms we are. I hate abortion, but I don't hate it nearly as much as the implication that I'm not really a person with thoughts, feelings, and a will of my own. That's bad enough, but now you're taking a seasoned mom and trying to coerce her into a nasty medical procedure meant ONLY as a last resort . . . well, that's when we go from insulting and degrading to reckless and dangerous.
There is a big difference between a woman who has had several normal, healthy births and drug addicts and neglectful mothers. One has proven herself responsible, and the others have proven themselves incapable of making good decisions.
Having been given the choice of an inducted vaginal delivery or a c-section 17 years ago, after spending the latter part of my first pregnancy with gestational diabetes, AND given the possible scenarios if I decided to go with the inducted vaginal delivery (ranging from a difficult delivery to my baby dying in the birth canal because the shoulders and chest of a gestational diabetic baby most often are too large to fit through it), I chose the c-section. I had waited a long time to have a baby (I was 33) and I wasn't going to risk HER health by being SELFISH. It was the right decision. As the nurses who had assisted in the delivery were cleaning me up afterwards, one of them leaned over and said, "you made the right choice. You would have never delivered that baby vaginally." Sometimes medical personnel do know best. While this woman may have successfully delivered 6 other large babies vaginally, this particular doctor may not have been present durin those deliveries. He was using his experience and expertise to arrive at his decision. That IS what we pay them for...
Sometimes they do know better but as demostrated in this case, sometimes they are wrong. After I birthed my eldest child who was 6lb 9oz, I was told "you will NEVER birth a baby bigger than 7lb vaginally". I birthed my beautiful 9lb 3oz girl in my bedroom, into my mothers hands 2 years later.
no man should rule a woman
I believe in this case, after an established track record of 6 other children born naturally & healthy under similar circumstances, the mother being of sound mind, there is NO slippery slope. This hospital & whatever Dr. Quack made that call should be punished for this. But of course they have no comment, there's no comment they can make that would support their extremely poor decision in this family's case. Totally different, for my first & only child I had only dilated to 5cm after 14 hours, the baby's heartbeat was erratic, the medical staff urged a C-section, & although I was reluctant, there were just too many unknowns for me to deny it. They were probably right, & my son was born healthy & has been ever since. I could NOT risk his life for my preferences--but again mine is like the opposite case.
Pray remember, we now live in a time when the State of New Jersey kidnapped three healthy, developmentally-normal, well-cared-for children from their parents at gunpoint; then proceeded to do the same with a fourth child literally hours after her birth; because the Department of Child "Welfare" disapproved of the kids' NAMES. As far as the minions of the State are concerned, We the Peons are chattel, and are to be treated accordingly.