Absolutely concur with your entire comment - licking wounds, self-pity, and being stuck in the past all stand in the way of living in the moment and moving forward, counting the many blessings that exist throughout!

Absolutely concur with everything you said. After healthy grieving being stuck in licking wounds, self-pity, and recriminations all prevent living in the moment and moving forward, counting the many blessings that are always present!

Derek-V: Outstanding post.

Bravo Derek, both for your post and overcoming your addiction. He seemed a wise man indeed.

I was hanging drywall.....and my partner said.......who the hell done that S*#&#^#&* it?

Wow nice job dismissing an entire profession because they failed to predict -- IN ADVANCE -- the emotional consequences of people flying airplanes into buildings.

By your absurd reasoning we should also dismiss the US military and intelligence agencies because they didn't know the details of the plot in advance.

Junicon, the US did know. They were warned on numerous occasions by several agencies from various countries.

Junicon - I could have told them for far less money that 9/11 would fu*k some people up. So yes, I would dismiss an entire profession that's built mostly around knowledge that's common sense (or was at one point) that comes out surprised by something so blatantly obvious a child could have predicted it.

Mmm. If you look around, you might concur that common sense is in short supply these days.

So if all a psychologist did was help you use your common sense, that would be more than enough.

But for many people a therapist has also helped them pull through a particularly difficult patch in their life. A good therapist listens, asks the important questions, and reflects back answers. He or she has a sense of when and how to give advice, and how to support his or her client.

Not everybody wants to see a therapist, or would benefit from it. We're all different. (Also, not every therapist is necessarily a good fit for every client!) But I agree with Junicon -- an entire profession should not be dismissed because there are people for whom it 'doesn't work.'

John Doe-2437959 said:

Junicon - I could have told them for far less money that 9/11 would fu*k some people up. So yes, I would dismiss an entire profession that's built mostly around knowledge that's common sense (or was at one point) that comes out surprised by something so blatantly obvious a child could have predicted it.

Why would they pay you even a penny when you cannot even read a simple article?

The article was not that they "discovered" that 9/11 would "f*ck some people up" but rather that their methods of reliving the experience did more harm than than good with some people.

Also, many of the things that you take to be "common sense" were certainly not "common sense" in the past.

Psychology is a very open profession. Oft times you get better advise from a person who has been in your position then you would a person sitting behind a desk who hasn't had much experience at all. That being said, it can also help to have a professional to talk to with complicated problems. As someone else said though, there are so many 'isms' being thrown around and so many drugs to fit those 'isms' it's hard to say anyone is normal. I think psychology is rather like an art. Sculpting with clay, when it works it can help to make something lovely from the lump it had been, the problem is, not everyone is clay. The artist would have to know how to work with clay, glass, iron, paint....and so on.

Each person handles grief differently, and if Psychologists only used a single method to help everyone, they could very easily have done more harm then good. Especially in a tragedy like that.

The thing about "common sense" is that there is no such thing. In fact... common sense equates more to what you THINK will happen (a hypothesis), but then you have to thoroughly test it. Dismissing anything as "well yeah, this is common sense, what a waste of time" is completely backwards. If you simply assume it was common sense but never tested it or cared to see results, you simply scoff at people working harder than you (to do the test). Doesn't sound very bright to me.

Anyway, common sense will always bite you one way or another, if you leave it at mere assumption. For instance... everybody knows opposites attract... total common sense. Also... common sense tells you that birds of a feather flock together. Oh wait... it CAN'T be both. Hmmm... well, how do you tell which is true more often than the other? After all, common sense says both are totally true.... even though they can't both be. Tested over and over in social psychology circles, by the way. I'd tell you which tends to actually be true Bob and John Doe... but I suppose you seem to be pretty happy with mere assumptions and not actual knowledge, otherwise it's fun to look up for yourself.

I think you are confusing common sense, with common phrases. Total difference.

I don't think I am at all, being as I gave an example of common sense phrases. Those two phrases are only phrases because they are what "everyone knows" in writing... hence examples of "common sense".

However, my point is the phrase "common sense" is more often simply assuming. This is the mistake to be made, and it's made the moment testing anything "common sense" is ridiculed. It's the moment you replace knowledge with belief :)

Those are not examples of common sense phrases. It's not common sense that opposites attract, as it is often difficult for them to attract. Common sense would be more like, look both ways before crossing a street. It's more good sense and sound judgement then idiom or phrase, in a practical situation. In fact the definition of common sense in a nutshell is :

: sound and prudent judgment based on a simple perception of the situation or facts.

Opposites attract isn't a fact, it's an idea much like an Old Wives Tale. People who are similar are just as equally capable of being attracted to each other, just as people who are opposite are equally as capable of hating each other.

From wiki:

The ability to resolve a common problem that has a simple solution. To reason through a problem using esoteric and exoteric knowledge, logic, inference and steps.

Common sense is not in the knowledge but in the application of the knowledge.

I would agree however, that Psychologists using a 'common sense' approach towards people looking for help, are less psychologist and more store clerks behind a counter.

I think you are debating a point that you'd largely agree with, to be honest.

I'd say that indeed "opposites attract" is not common sense at all. In fact, spoiler (not for you obviously :) ) the exact opposite has been measured, time and time again, to be more accurate. It's what people ASSUME is fact (which is generally measured to be opposites attracting :) ). "Common sense" in USAGE if nothing else... doesn't exist as relevant to any sort of academic conversation.

However... common sense isn't fact... that was what I was trying to convey concisely. Very neatly in fact.

Problem is... too many people associate common sense with fact or knowledge, when in fact... there IS no knowledge without testing. You don't KNOW which is true without a test. You can even call a hypothesis an "educated guess"... but compared to common usage of "common sense"... nope, all it means is you assume something. My original reply was to caution an individual against rejecting any study because "common sense could have told you"... this is completely against the very definition you provided... knowledge needs involved, and in "layman's" or "everyday" usages of the term "common sense"... it basically means "so obvious you don't need to test" which is the same as "assumption" or "belief"... which means no knowledge need be involved.

Actually the only thing I was debating is that your examples of what you consider common sense were actually more like Old wives tales, idioms and phrases...not actual common sense. As I pointed out as well, common sense is not the knowledge or fact, but in the application of and judgement used, based on said facts. As you are very neatly trying to convey that common sense isn't fact, I was very neatly disagreeing with your examples.

~Cheers.

OK... disagree that they are examples of common sense. I disagree as well.

BUT... do you disagree that many people THINK they are forms of common sense?

Just because you are intuitively right doesn't mean that "common sense" isn't a rather dangerous concept (again... as used in common everyday terms). Testing trumps intuition at large, irregardless of how well intuition seems to serve a person.

I think the only disagreement was you said it wasn't common sense because you can use logic (and there's tests as well) to show it doesn't fit a dictionary definition. Problem is... that's not the average everyday use of "common sense", which is the usage that will bit you in the arse if you blow off testing. See also... common uses of rhetoric vs. academic uses.

Yuuuup.

Such as...?

If you had a deep clinical depression that was cured just by being told to "stop worrying about what you can't change" then my name is Mary Poppins.

Anti-depressant medications have been immensely helpful for many thousands of people (myself included). There is also abudant evidence that talk therapy is effective for a wide range of psychological difficulties.

I'd be dead if I hadn't found a "charlatan" to get me over the rough patches, but keep up your phychobabble and pat yourself on the back.

Psst... Daniel, a psychiatrist IS a... well, go ahead and look up the degree description.

In the meantime, try to stop making up stories. Those of us who know better merely scoff :)

How many people go to see a psychologist for advice on a what seems like a simple personal matter and end up hooked into therapy for years? The therapists know how to manufacture dependency in their patients for therapy. Then they spend all the time on a very long and expensive mental fishing trip while trying to remodel the person's entire personality in the process.

The medical industry has been adopting the financially successful therapy model as well. Why lose a customer by curing them, when their insurance will pay for so much more? It's no wonder why medical costs are skyrocketing.

Not very many. In fact, insurance only covers axis I diagnosis for the most part (not considering co morbidity) which leaves out plenty of disorders as NEVER being covered. Also, it's not so much a matter of curing anybody to keep them paying via insurance in another key regard... an insurance company won't pay for anything at all unless a diagnosis is made. Yep... I get about half an hour to determine if someone needs a diagnosis even allowing a second visit in clinical settings. Fun stuff... but if you confuse the "medical industry" with the insurance industry, I suspect you'd always find fault with any sort of medical care. You have to look deeper than you are.

In any case, the insurance industry also tends to demand a crisis intervention therapy model, and will not cover many forms of (non pharma) therapy for more than 8 weeks. You are seriously confusing issues here if you think therapists are stringing out therapy... in general, they can't even if it sounded like a good idea.

clinpsych - you demonstrated just what I described. If you did not do that with the intent to demonstrate, but rather to fool me, then I am saddened. You accuse me of confusing issues in the same sentence you bring insurance into the discussion. I never mentioned anything about insurance. A naive person would have been confused by your strategy, and thereby proving you correct that they are becoming confused. You did it again by suggesting I am confusing the medical industry with the insurance industry. You are doing projective identification to win the argument. You are trying to blindside me into accepting that I am confused and you follow up by saying I am incorrect about my previous argument. Do you do this to your patients?

Once the insurance runs out, perhaps the patient is dependent enough they find a way to pay for "therapy" themselves. You have convinced me you are run-of-the-mill a scam artist.

No I didn't. You accused psychologists of "hooking patients into therapy for years" (your exact words). I, in turn, described how many can't even get a second visit. Those that do find it impossible for insurance to cover more than about 8 weeks regardless of the diagnosis. That is absolutely contrary to what you said. You DID confuse the medical industry with the insurance industry, because it is the insurance industry explicitly which causes this.

"Once the insurance runs out, perhaps the patient..."

In addition to being entirely misguided, your post implied that psychologists milked the insurance system... which again, is entirely impossible. If I sound like a run of the mill scam artist... as someone who even knows the subject matter... you simply sound like an ill informed individual who probably has spent too much time immersed in environments telling you that the brain cannot have issues just as any other body part. Whatever you think :)

are you mentally stable?

ky... No offense, but I need to wonder about you... I mean having to even ask.

jk...

maybe he was just having a bad morning...

Congrats, madmike. You spelled "abject" correctly.

Isn't asking somebody who calls their self "madmike" if he's mentally stable analogous to asking Paris Hilton if she has a room for rent?

Hey madman - I mean madmike - go take a course in physics. Pay special attention to the laws of motion. Then estimate the mass of the top part of the building that fell through a story or two before slamming into the part of the building below. Cascade failure of the rest of the building and the associated heat of friction and pressure caused by thousands of tons of concrete and steel migh cause some hot conditions, no?

Approaching situations with an open mind is refreshing. Taking the time to understand something before jumping to conclusions is much preferable to raving like a lunatic and buying into conspiracy theories.

I'm just wasting my breath, aren't I?

madmike - Answer: "Daaaaa....Purple"

Physics courses? You are wasting your breath, jreiner.

Open mind? The first responders on the scene at Shanksville remarked that there weren't any pieces of plane, luggage, pieces of remains, nothing. "Nothing but a smoking hole in the ground," the reporter from the local news station recorded." The lady disappeared a few days later.

Open mind, huh?

I notice you replied with the typical 9/11 conspiracy theorist tactic of changing the subject when you have no intelligent rebuttal to the actual topic of the conversation. We were discussing the tower collapse...you bring up Shanksville.

But since you bring it up - the NTSB reported that the flight impacted at 563 miles per hour at a 40 degree nose-down, inverted attitude. The aircraft fragmented violently upon impact. Most of the aircraft wreckage was found near the impact crater. The voice recorder was found buried 25 feet (8 m) below the crater. All human remains were found within a 70 acre (28 ha) area surrounding the impact point. Somerset County Coroner Wally Miller was involved in the investigation and identification of the remains. As he walked through the wreckage, the only recognizable body part he saw was a piece of spinal cord with five vertebrae attached. Miller later found and identified 1,500 pieces of human remains totaling about 600 pounds (272 kg), or eight percent of the total. The rest of the remains were consumed by the impact. Investigators identified four victims by September 22 and eleven by September 24. They identified another by September 29. Thirty-four passengers were identified by October 27. All the people on board the flight were identified by December 21.

I'm sure you'll deflect or avoid the issue - that's typical. Having an open mind includes listening to differing points of view and even modifying your position in the face of rational evidence. Some people will cite interviews with eyewitnesses, experts in physics, evidenciary evidence collected at the scene, etc... 9/11 Truthers offer none of that. Just uninformed opinion, conjecture, lunacy or downright idiocy. I've neither the time nor inclination to listen to unintelligent babble and citation of non-existant sources. What first responders at the scene? Names please, or at least time and location of the statement. Otherwise you have nothing useful to add to the discussion.

The DSM belongs to psychiatry, not psychology. The DSM has nothing to do with "delving into deep pasts." It is a system of classification, and is an aspect of the medical model that is imposed upon the entire mental health system, not just psychologists.

Molly, the DSM "belongs" to mental health in general. Counselors use it because they are able to test and diagnose, the same for psychologists.

I did not say the DSM delved into anyone's past I merely stated that Psychologists tend to look deeper into their client's past when perhaps only the immediate event needs to be explored.

But thanks for your input and I hope it made you feel much better to "correct".

FYI---Were you aware that in a few states psychologists after taking the appropriate classes may prescribe psycho active medication? (Apropo of nothing)

The DSM is the diagnostic manual of both psychologists AND psychiatrists.

The wording of the entire article is as "sick" as the "average" poster purports it to be by and large in the majority of articles. This time... it's true. Freudian psychologists showed up at ground zero? Pffft.... freudian psychology has been dead since the 50's (for good reason).

However, the bigger question to examine is this... is crisis intervention modeling vs. long term models a best bet? See... due to insurance considerations, all psychology can do is adopt a crisis intervention model... help them now or never ever (my summation). An inquisitive reader would do very well to look into crisis intervention (ABC model etc. ) to be truly informed on the issue. Whether crisis intervention did more hurt then help is actually a fair and good question... also bear in mind that a "crisis interventionist" doesn't require ANY sort of qualifications (again... thank you insurance set ups... a psychologist is the supervisor of crisis intervention teams... not the one who does most of the counseling... not to drop a truth bomb on psych haters...)

In any case... if you think psychology is the work of "charlatans".... you've likely been listening to the charlatans yourself :)

Really? Well, perhaps you can explain why disorders like ADHD have been discovered by psychologists. Psychologists used experimental data to determine the likely regions of the brain that are affected. Then modern neuroscience confirmed everything that psychologists had been saying about it.

I'd bet a lot of money that you've never read a peer-reviewed psychology paper in your life. Don't dismiss a field of science when you don't know anything about the literature.

Psychology is not classified as an "art." The "ology" part of the word denotes it is a science. It is, in fact, the application of the scientific method to the study of human behavior. Those people in the field who are the most scientific minded are those who are the most helpful to clients. It is those people in the mental health field (and there are plenty, holding diverse degrees and licenses) who practice according to their "gut" and according to pop-psychology trends who are the problem. As someone who practices and teaches in the field, it pains me to have to say that there are many fewer professionals who are scientist-practitioners than there are "professionals" who follow their guts and popular trends.

Sorry friends, but psychology is not a science, and it is indeed one of the arts. While some psychologist may use some scientific methods in their research and some may think themselves a scientist, they are not. A degree in psychology is an arts degree with no more science study required than that for an English major.

Lol. Psychology is an art and a science. It depends on what area you're focused on.

Psychiatrists have to graduate from medical school and work with mental disorders. They're almost strictly science.

Psychologists study and analyze human behavior. There are still research psychologists who use the scienfific method. When it comes to hypnosis and talk therapy, they're more in the art area than the scientific. It all depends on what treatments you use and what area you're specialized in.

Wow Junicon, ADHD. Really? That's what you come out swinging with? The most over diagnosed 'disorder' in the history of mental illness, maybe only second to depression. you know, 50 years ago ADHD didn't exist and those that MIGHT have had it are perfectly fine now.

I have had to take one class in psychopharmachology which was mostly chemistry at the BS level and will be taking another in a few months for my MA program. You are correct though in that Psychology, Counseling, etc do fall under the auspices of "ARTS".

In some cases it changes at the PhD levels IF you are going into scientific research.

Were we talking about proctology?

What exactly are the personal agendas education and training are veneered over for?

Fat heads trying to know everything about anyone, and not listening... yeah?

this is insane. there is no rational explination as to why the US government would risk losing its legitimacy over something like this. No amount of insurance money or incentive could drive the US govt to commit such a horrific event on its own citizens. the impliacations of getting caught would bring about problems that far out way any possible benefits. rationally speaking, its just not plausible that the US was behind this. and in the event that the leaders of our nation are not rational thinkers, then there is no point in arguing, as we would all be in some deep, deep trouble.

Well, it looks like olla was one of the failures which this article alludes to..

ky, while I applaud your effort, trying to talk rationally to someone who believes strongly in an irrational premise and who argues from a position of ignorance is fruitless and liable to cause you great consternation and irritation.

I recommend pointing and laughing instead :)

Don't point...just laugh...

Truther alert!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Truther alert!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Laugh all you want, but Obama still has not produced an un-forged birth certificate.

Laugh all you want, but Obama still has not produced an un-forged birth certificate.

Prove it, Birther!

Laugh all you want, but Obama still has not produced an un-forged birth certificate.

What the hell does Obama have to do with this?

Prove it, Birther!

Prove otherwise, denier!

What the hell does Obama have to do with this?

What does Obama not have to do with?

Prove otherwise, denier!

I don't need to, the proof has been put out there twice, If you have proof otherwise, It is your duty as an Americian to take it to the authorities so they can act on it...go!go!

Even the Supreme Court disagrees with you.....lol

Hmmm.. What do you think it means when you vision a 2 year old piloting a space shuttle? Do you vision that child is you?

Cool beans but.... "Counseling" could happen with a brother a mother a dad a friend anyone who was willing to listen and offer advice.

Trained professional listeners? sure... but diagnosis? Therapy? I just think it's a larger Facade to sucker people into paying money for something they should of , and could have gotten for free...

in my opinion though the "human condition" ... lol I didn't know we weren't all afflicted, and that Psycho brains were all that much superior.

I dunno though , I think there for I am... when I'm sad, I may cry, when I'm mad I may tell someone, when I'm happy I will let everyone know...

I just don't get what's so scientific about that... feel me?

Jeremiah, you are so fortunate that you obviously haven't to go through some of the horrendous life experiences many other people have gone through. Don't judge a man until you've walked a miile in his shoes. Among other things, if you receive a "diagnosis" the doctor is much more comfortable making a judgement over which medication you may need because not one size fits all. Not all one type of therapy fits all either.

ahhhh you see but you're doing the same thing and assuming I haven't...

but whatever that is my opinion.

I don't think a single head shrinker psycho, psychiatric whatever "thought" doctor you throw in front of any give person over any given ordeal does any more good than a genuine caring family member...

And the follow up... the digging? the fixing... the reporting... all just to make themselves feel better about their b.s. jobs.

99% ?? Laughable again...

Glad you know so much about what you're talking @ reality. Did Builder Bob give you your information?

You might consider changing your monikor to something more "realistic."

Where exactly did you get this information?

Additionally please explain to us why someone who is being successfully treated for a brain disorder with antidepressants or anti psychotic medication couldn't do their job well,even if their chosen profession is a mental healthcare provider?

Generalizations from a person with a small spoon to shovel his sh*t with.

I will admit that I am biased, as I have been through therapy and am also a therapist (one year away from completing my doctorate and becoming a psychologist). Your overgeneralization of the "nuts" that psychologists are works against the point that you're making. (By the way, nurses, psychologists and psychiatrists are trained with different emphases, especially nurses.) I am sorry for whatever happened to you to make you think that we are all insane and manipulative; we are not all that way. Just as in every profession, we are all human, we all make mistakes and to expect us to be non-human or perfect is an insane idea.

The real contribution that I wanted to make here is that this article is incomplete. The research that is referred to here actually concluded that because there was such a benevolent influx of therapists that went to NY after 9/11, the victims were given little time to integrate their experience (understand it for what it really was and make sense in their minds and bodies what they experienced). Those who started therapy 2-3 months after 9/11 had better outcomes than those who started immediately after the towers fell.

Where's my pie... I like pie... Charlie!! Where's Charlie?

What kind? You know what sounds good? Some cheesecake. But what is puzzling is how a cheesecake looks like a pie, but its called a cake. I think its one of those problems that maybe only a psychologist could answer.

Cheese Pie?.... eh. Sounds like some home style dish traditionally served in Great Britain..

I Have A Dog. But I Don't Know Where Charlie Is

Its round like a pie, it has a hardened crust, you bake it................But yet its a cake........yup, must of been a mental health expert that named the cheesecake.

I also like Pi, but it's shape is not as aesthetically pleasing to some people.

And yeah, I'm a bit of a math geek... :P

Pi R Squared Is Wrong. ---- Pi R Round. Cobbler R Square

Pythagorean theorum looks a lot like a slice of the pie ....but we shall also call this cake. Pythagorean cake with some chunky monkey ice cream.

I Don't Have A Monkey, I Have A Dog.

Cake has a song called short skirt long jacket. Again with the duality of man.

@ Professor,

It Might Just Be Me, But You Don't Seem To Be Making Any Sense.

LOL

We're going to Candy Mountain, Charlie....

I Don't Like Candy Damnit, I Like Pie.

Ok Ok.....sheeze.. somebody give him some Pie...

...Take us to the Banana King Charlie...

Perhaps I need an evaluation from a highly trained mental health professional. You know, to help me make sense of it all based on opinions fabricated before the internet or terrorism. And speaking of pies and the duality of man. Why are "BAMA" pecan pies made in oklahoma and not Alabama?

..No Pecans left in Alabama.

I Wanted To Be A Psychologist, But I Decided To Be A Gynecologist Instead.

That's Why I Like Pie (l)

...Oh no you di-n't

In My Profession I Sometimes Run Into Some Very Unsexy Cheesecake.

Could it be his views on State vs. Individualism and Religion? Yeah, possibly... How could the "State" allow funds be used to promote his views...

I Like Pie.

Agree

That's always been my observational theory. Most people I know who went into psychology seem to do it to make themselves feel better about their own problems.

This article sort of says the same thing.

Kate....Do you cut through red tape with a machete when no one is looking?