I have found a large percentage of people use church for networking and not for faith.

They use the church to enlighten their wallets not their minds.

My attendance has nothing to do with "networking."

Maybe you didn't notice his statement didn't say "everyone"?

I did spend many years going to church and I've always come away the idea it is primarily a social activity and not a spiritual one for most. The spiritual part was the price to be paid for the social activities afterward.

Build me a church (metaphorically speaking) who speaks the words and walks the walk and believes as Christ did, and I'll be there. Church, like all other institutions in modern-day America has become a bastardized bastion of Republican politics, haves having it all and have nots having nothing. Those are not the words or deeds of Christ. So I left it all. I am still waiting for the TRUE Christian church to come along.

I find that many go to church because it is a way to feel more power and control. Most feel if they go to church they are better than someone who does not go to church. Finally, the church does not teach much about how it is better to be poor than rich. Seldom does the church talk about it easier for a rich man going through the eye of a needle than going to heaven. Mostly they talk about how they deserve being rich or middle class. They talk more about not wanting to pay taxes and abortion and gays

I know a lot of very good, well educated people who consider themselves Christian. They're good people. I also know a lot of very well educated people who use Christianity as a tool for making money.

A lot of working class people have figured out that, in so many cases, their faith has been compromised by the same greedy bastards who are compromising our government - and our lives.

There are a lot of rotten apples in your basket, and it may be too late to get them out. Maybe, like so many others, they have discovered that faith is between an individual and their Maker - and best practiced at home from now on.

The churches I have attended that have made the biggest,positive impact on others have been the "college" churches and I've been in many.

I find the Military Base churches best because of the Chaplins they are really a help to our yhoung men and Women in Uniform. They the chaplins help the ones in Uniform and are not like the civilian church Who have complete bands set up on a stage which is just a show. I don't go to church to hear a band play and get a drum roll when the preacher say a code word word for the drum roll... I go to worship God.. In God we trust!!!

I don't know I am no expert, but this seems to go along with a premise that many have been saying for a long time. The majority of people say they believe in God, but in fact really don't. In this nation if you admit to being a non-believer you are an immoral person. There are way more people who will not admit they no longer believe than most people think. Take the people who will not admit they no longer believe and the people who only believe because they are afraid not to and the percentage of religious people in this country and around the world plummets. To call yourself a believer you must really act like one. If God created everything than man's highest priority must be to protect everything that God created! Anything less is just lip service. No excuses or justifications... just respect for everything he created! To destroy anything that he created is to heap contempt on him! Come on lets hear the arguments against that!

Maybe the drop-off in church attendance among the less educated is because they don't make enough money to be able to afford the transportation to get to church in the first place. You have to get to church first before you can attend the service. Not everyone has a local, neighborhood church.

If you talk to any innercity ministry, you will find that transportation has little to do with it. When you live in walking distance from the church , have provided transportation if needed, and you still don't come, it's something else.

Robyn D.,

I suppose there are those who live within walking distance of their church and still do not go, but most people do not live within walking distance of their church. After all, not just any church will do. It has to be one of a denomination you believe in. I might have a Catholic church in my neighborhood, but if I am a Baptist I probably won't attend a Catholic church.

I'm just going by the experiences I've had in low income areas. The excuses for not going to any church are pretty interesting, far-fetched, and many times heart-wrenching. But from my experience it mostly has to do with self-esteem. That's why the most successful outreach programs are meeting these people where they are. For example, when we do VBS we go to them, they don't come to us even when we provided transportation. The difference in attendence is amazing! There is a park area right near the housing development and the kids come in bunches-along with their moms, sitters, etc. When we took the bus right up to their doors, very few came.

I'm curious as to why this article focuses on "white" people?

I have to go serve a corporate lord everyday, why do I want to serve a lord in the afterlife?

Because, as the article states, there is less variation in black and Hispanic communities with church attendance. Whether we have a Ph.D. or a GED, black people are more likely to go to church...and the same church at that. There's not much to study with people of color and church attendance.

What has astonished me is the hate and callousness toward suffering you find in so many evangelical churches. When did the poor become "lazy slobs looking for a handout", or the sick and disabled "morally decadent- brought it on themselves. I'm a Christian, but not interested in hate, vindictive judgement, and just plain meanness. I'll worship at home...closer to God. I want to be a better person, not part of a mob.

FLMOM

Wouldn't the question "who's going to church" be more thoroughly answered by including all statistical variations? Does the report even include historical attendance percentage by racial profile (other than "white")?

Church should be about one main thing. Going to see how to be closer to God and build relationships with those who believe in the salvation that God provides. If you go for any other reason then you really are wasting your time. God loves us all so much he gave us a way to be with him eternally once our life is over on this Earth. The only way to know God and discover how he loves you is to be around others that love Him. You that post on here about how hypocritical we Christians can be are right about some of us and I am ashamed of how we act sometimes. We are not perfect and cannot always be trusted. Yes, we sometimes need church more than you guys. This is what church is about. Not one of us are perfect and we should not beat you over the head with the Bible. Religion is really about the individual and God alone. What happens to you in the afterlife is not up to me or anyone else, just God!

wize,

"I'm curious as to why this article focuses on "white" people?"

According to the article, the focus was on white people because church attendance based on education has not changed much among blacks and Hispanics. The change in church attendance based on education has mainly been among whites.

Mickey

The article is poorly written. I see little difference in the historical attendance rate among white college grads (much like the purported attendance rates of blacks and hispanics). It appears that the "popular perception" can be summed up by saying they expected blacks, hispanics and poorly educated whites to be churchgoers. As if educated "whites" should be different. In my opinion the article smacks of both racism and elitism.

Some of you pointed out you were there for net working(your agenda not God's), some of you pointed out how mean spirited some Christians are. So are some non believers. Some have pointed out the politics involved- this is a big part of my problem with church. Our country was founded by religious people seeking freedom from persecution but our government was founded on separation of church and state. This seems to have been forgotten by both sides who keep washing each others hands. I will worship in my own way, just me and my Bible, or Book of the Dead, or Torah, or Koran whichever I choose. And yes I am WHITE so I do fall into the studies parameters.

wize,

"In my opinion the article smacks of both racism and elitism."

You may be right, but I didn't see it that way.

I remember exactly when and why I quit going to church. Some of it had to deal with the same things everyone else has been seeing. There were people trying to network and get ahead. There were some who were there for the dog and pony show. There were a few who were there for their spiritual beliefs. I quit when the church leaders used the church to meddle in politics. I would tithe to help the church, the poor, the needy, the sick, the dying, the troubled, etc. I do not want to tithe to meddle in politics. Especially when those who they were supporting did not support my needs as a constituent. I have other organizations I give and belong to for those matters.

I quit going to church because these people who call themselves Christians spread lies about me. Somehow they interpret thou shalt not lie to apply only to others. I know others who have had the same experience. Church is an extension of their desires for themselves, to be obtained in any way at any cost.

Paul,, spot on, willow,,your post is creepy, Fact of,, me too

I'm pleased when I hear church attendance is dropping for any demographic. Religion is an ancient big business that is still extorting money from their "flocks" today and trying to undermine real-life progress in the process. The faster the god-myth (and the spiritual charlatans that prey on the sheeple) is discredited and tossed into the dustbin of history (like the ancient mythology it is) the faster we can move on to tackle the real and urgent problems that confront humanity.

like the Nazis did?

The educated people I know who go to church go 1) to be seen, in which case they go to a church in a well-todo neighborhood, 2) to network, again, the better neighborhood is the preferred option, 3) because they think it's the appropriate thing to do for "people like them," 4) to socialize (join the book club or whatever the place offers), 5) to show others how broad-minded they are by visiting, for instance, churches where the minister is gay, 6) so the kids can have a nice, big church wedding to be talked about for some time afterwards. I know several well-educated agnostics (possibly atheists) who regularly attend church for one or more of these reasons. To me, religion is nothing but a business and often a very profitable one indeed and tax-free no less.

It would seem that most of you have been going to the wrong church, perhaps the one I grew up in. A real church is nothing like what has been described here. I look around my church and I see a beautiful and diverse family. Multiracial, multinational, divergent socio-economic and educational backgrounds. We are all there for the spiritual connection not networking. Our love for each other and God is genuine. We are not a perfect church any more than anything here can be perfect. I agree that some people go to church for the wrong reason and some churches are not teaching God's way in accordance w/ the scriptures but that doesn't mean that you give up on God. PS to Susi-Oh, most of our kids do not have nice, big church weddings. Our church is definitely not in it for the money.

Hey there haters, I'm one of the few who goes to Church for the right reason and I'm the one collapsed. Paul, and others who talk about all the negatives. You've not found the right Church, or possibly not a real church at all. If you're going to network, be politically active, or be seen, then you're not going for the right reason. Hence, probably why the lot of you have a bad opinion of Church. Truthfully, there are some Churches I have a bad opinion of, but it is due to what they teach, or allow to go on within the Church walls. If you were mentally open, able to identify and willingly participate in the real (normal) Church environment, your opinion would change. Don't let bad instances cause you to label all Churches as bad. It is as wrong as saying all white people have blond hair and blue eyes.

But, if you have no interest, or no belief, don't waste others time claiming you know what really goes on....you probably don't, and you're spreading misinformation and lies.

The weak and feeble minded go to church cause they can't think for themselves. That or they speed all week being evil doer's and need church to make themselves feel good about themselves before the next week.

I am by no means spiritual (I am very religous in just about everything I do though)

But the hatred of those that are spiritual makes me sick to my stomach. How can you hate somebody because they don't believe the same exact things are you?

The educated folk have $ and a nice life, they can take Sunday off and go to church. Many of the other demographic groups mentioned have to work Sundays now just to make ends meet. Overall, the studied showed that ALL groups church attendance has dropped...pointing to an overall trend that people are tired of being blind followers and want to take more control over their lives. I'm talking government, church, any institution that "teaches" you how to behave.

I stoppped going to church completely after being in an evangelical one for a while. The hatred spewed there against those who are islamic made my skin crawl. They even sent the same stuff to me in emails! One woman was crying because she had to work for someone who was muslim. Really? THAT's what you cry about?

I can't abide hate mongering - in any religion. But I know many, many good christians who live as I'd understand the bible to be. I'll never be religious again, but its heartening to know that Christiany/religion doesn't have to be about hate. It honestly can be about love.

My family stopped going to (Baptist) church when I was about 9, mostly because it was just a repeat of high school for my parents. The popularity contests, the back-stabbing gossiping women (and some men), the hypocrites that touted their faith while simultaneously judging and putting down anyone different from them. The last time I went to church, a Sunday school teacher asked my name, and when I replied she said "Well, all the other kids must tease you for that!".

I know there are a lot of nice, level-headed, non-judgmental religious people out there, but my family (who has remained religious) and my childhood experiences with church left me forever with a bad taste in my mouth for those who claim to be Christians. When my cousin came out as a lesbian, my uncle first disowned her, then relented, but is still trying to get her to "change back". The rest of my family refuses to speak to her. My grandparents refused to go to my cousins' weddings unless they were in a church, and disowned me entirely when they found out I voted for Barrack Obama ("But don't you know he's not even an American Citizen?!").

The worst thing for me though was dealing with the hypocrites who could never answer my most basic questions about my faith as a child:

If God is omniscient (sees all, knows all that has ever happened, is happening, and ever will happen), then he must know before we are born whether or not we're going to heaven or hell... so what's with the "free will" business? Either he's not omniscient, and we have free will, or he is omniscient and created people just to punish some of them.

If you believe in God, and you go to heaven, you're supposed to be reunited with your loved ones. What if your loved ones didn't believe in God? What if they go to hell? Am I supposed to just be in heaven with some sort of ghost-replica of that person?

After God killed most of the world's population with Noah's flood, he sent a rainbow (or at least that's what I was told in Sunday School) to Noah and family after they landed to promise that never again would he destroy human kind like that. Then what's with all the apocalypse talk in Revelations? (I got spanked, yes SPANKED in Sunday school when I asked that one).

If Adam was the first man, and Eve was the first woman, and they're responsible for populating the earth as we know it today... then wasn't there a lot of incest happening? Wouldn't Adam and Eve's own children be damned forever because of this? And then again with Noah's family--lots of inbreeding there, again.

And the final straw: If Jesus was preaching love, tolerance, and forgiveness, then why does it seem that the majority of Christians I know are the first to declare hatred against a group that is different?

The convenient and all encompassing answer I got from these questions I asked as a child was "don't think too hard about it, just have faith". Mmmhmm. Thank "god" I learned to think for myself. Down with hypocrisy!

I loved your questions Preceded! I'd really be interested in the response to the apocalyptic one. Although I have heard (some) christians explain the Adam and Eve one... as there was incest but it wasn't a sin yet because their genes were still pure or something like that. Look up the creationist museum... its a... well... an education (of a sort :-/)

Others said God made other wives for the children of E/A, which would mean creation didn't really end after 7 days... or that E/A weren't so special.

liberal arts majors?

I don't go to church because it's against my religion.

I find it funny that soooo many christians are against muslims, given the fact that their religions are almost the same, and come from the same location and contain most of the same characters. I also love to see the "white jesus" hanging on their walls, with his light-brown/blonde hair, pale skin, and his blue eyes. Jesus, if he really did exist, would have looked an awful lot like Osama Bin Laden, not the all-American guy they see in their heads. The real christianity is the one being preached by those crazy West Borrow nuts, it is more in line with the true tenants of that religion, most people like to cherry-pick the happy feeling stuff, and forget all about the horrible things the bible says to do, like honor killings and slavery. Those WB people are seriously mental, but if you are judging them by what the bible says (I'm mean all of the bible, not the happy parts), they are mild compared to the catholic church and its Spanish Inquisition.

I can't wait for the day when people will stop paying in to all the religious nonsense that has plagued mankind for thousands of years, we would all have summer homes on Mars if it wasn't for the Dark Ages that religion gave us.

Religiousness equals delusional no matter what race or income bracket.

People are so funny...whenever someone brings up religion on a scientific (evolution, or whatever) article/discussion board the rude atheists bring up that they feel that only unintelligent people believe in God, that they are easily brainwashed because they are uneducated and uninformed. Now that statistics based on this study show that actually more educated people actually attend church, it is only because they "think it makes them look good". and not because they believe or truly want to be there.

It amazes me how quickly some people can change their mind based on the discussion at hand. What a bunch of hypocrites. LOL

All religion is evil. They all should be banned. They're the reason the world is in this mess. You can only pray at home and you never discuss religion in public. That should be a law.

MEL rich people and educated people only use church to network and make money. I've also heard Athiest know more about the bible than most christians. I was raised in a Baptist church and feel they are the most hateful of all religions. They are no better than the muslims.

I attended that baptist church only to take my mom who couldn't drive any longer. Then i was asked not to return cause somebody found out i'm hiv poz. How loving and forgiving. I was glad, now i don't have to go back to that cult.

Glenn, I am sorry that you were unable to find that comfort that a congregation is supposed to bring. I myself do not go to church. I feel like an outsider, I don't like the way any church makes me feel, regardless of the religion. I do not practice a religion because all religions existing today are false, however a I am a believer in the Lord, and I can assure you that the man-made religions and churches are not what God intended for any of us. I am sorry you felt not only forced (in a sense) to attend a church you hated but also that they shunned you because of something you have, not for something that you are. Having HIV makes you no less human than anyone else and they should be absolutely ashamed of themselves for treating you the way they did. Although I am sure they do not feel shame, for in their eyes they are perfect and nothing but the Hand of God could change that. All man-made religions are extremely hypocritical, I am not saying that individuals within those religions are, but experience tells me otherwise. I was fortunate enough not to grow up in a religious family, we never went to church, although we always believed in God. Fortunate because without the influence of the evil that a lot of churches bring I was able to see the real meaning for myself, not based on one man's view. I am no0t perfect, very far from it, I sin like everyone else, I do not follow all of the 10 commandments, but I strive to be a better person everyday and get closer to that of God's Word and His Law. If only we all could, this world would truly be a better place.

I do not disagree with what you say, but my statement above was just that, a statement made based on my observations over several months on the vine. This is how many atheists speak, (not that the religious don't), they will change their mind like the weather, what ever fits the situation best.

Many true statements. Many go because they want to feel like "I am a Christian and you are not" or "I am a better Christian or person than you. I am saved or going to heaven and you are not." Although the bible teaches love and it is better to be poor than rich they look down on people who do not have as much money as they do. So then why would people who have less money want to go?

Yes, I am sure the churches want anyone to come and put money in their basket. As the churches teach it is better for the poor person to give most of his money than for the rich to give some. Down deep the churches want the 10% of the rich.

Who do you see on the street showing more good will? Changing tires, being kind to others, not being judgmental, etc? Go into the city where there is more money and then go to the country where there is less and tell me what you find.

I'm an athiest now, I don't believe anything in the bible. I as soon believe in The Lord of the Rings. :)

Point very well taken. It's not just education, but education in what.

I disagree with you. I know many doctors that go to Church, and believe in God. Either way, going to church does not prove you're a Christian or not. You could be one of the most loving Christians, and not go to Church at all. Or vica versa

I guess what i mean is, just because they are educated, doesn't mean they are intelligent

Lancey I've lived in many "college" towns and attended churches where the majority were college professors and doctors. (In fact one of them delivered my children). They were highly respected at the institutions and certainly "walked" their faith. They were wonderful people who gave back to the community and made a difference in other's lives.

Lebbano... beg to differ with you. How do you define "intelligence."? Is it IQ? or Common Sense?

Frankly, you will find Common Sense far more basically intelligent than simply IQ. Common Sense involves learning from experience and able to apply it appropriately. Additionally, Common Sense involves a masterly sense of Logic which cannot help but be enhanced by education. But most of all it requires communication skills.

All of this is required at the college levels into graduate degrees regardless of the majors. The Scientific Method is the most profound base of inquiry, checking facts, and searching for new answers.

And that, in my opinion, is why there has been an increase in going to church by college educated folks. Church is the source of keeping us in touch with the ideals of existence. And it is a further factor of helping those attending not just to take responsibility for the consequences of their actions, but to take responsibility for helping others who are floundering in life.

If you think this does not take intelligence, think again.

However, that does not mean that those who stop their formal education past the 12th grade are not intelligent. Many, perhaps most of them can be far more intelligent and successful in their work and in their life than college graduates. And that can apply even to high school drop outs... although that is rare.

Education on all levels is the Golden Key to a happy, rewarding life. Forget that some folks drop it along the way. If they have, nothing is stopping them to search for it... and to pick it up, use it. And going to church, whatever one's religion, is the best (although not the only) place to find it.

Regardless of one's age, it is never too late, and we are never too old. Intelligence is too broad a spectrum for you to be so simplistic about it.

In my experience, it is my friends with no faith that are the most closed minded, which leads to ignorance.

People of faith come from all educational perspectives, with plenty of folks with high IQ's, or scientific degrees among them. This constant attempt to denigrate people of faith is both bigoted and ignorant.

I so agree with you!

Yeah, once you look at people with scientific and technical degrees, the number of churchgoers plummets exponentially.

Robyn D: Great posts !

But, "even replying to" or "attempting to have a meaningful discussion" with clueless, mental midgets is a waste of your time.

The most decent and most charitable people people I've ever know are those who take their "faith" very seriously, and while readily admitting they are far from perfect, understand that to fellowship at your local church is about "strengthening your own faith" and trying to help those less fortunate than yourself.

It's like the day a minister bumped in to one of his church members at the supermarket.

The minister asked the man,

"Well it is nice to see you because I haven't seen you at church for a very long time. Where have you been?"

The man replied,

"Well Reverend, I just don't feel comfortable at church anymore because those people all seem like a big bunch of hypocrites !"

The minister replied,

"Well, I know what you and you may be right, but you should come still come back anyway... after all, one more won't make a difference!"

That story is priceless, Speedy, I'll have to remember that one. Your comment about "far from perfect" is right on!!!

I am a Christian and have a degree in Chemical Engineering. Most of my friends at Georgia Tech (scientists, engineers) were Christians as well. We definitely do not go to church for networking. The more I studied science and math, the more it pointed to an intelligent designer of the world, and the more I saw how wonderfully and perfectly designed we are. Do not base your opinion of God on any church as all humans are imperfect and will fail your expectations.

I am a devoted Orthodox Christian. I have a degree in Human Geography and in Geographic Information systems. I also speak three languages. Your ignorance and judgmental nature is what you see. Intelligence is defined by how willing you are to learn about the world and better yourself. Also my family and me had to suffer under a regime that killed people for having a religion. Millions were killed and places of worships destroyed under state atheism.

Is that the real purpose for religion, to be able to make yourself feel like you're a little better than others?

lebbano: there u go: a scientific sample of 3 :)

As an aside, whether you are a believer (in God, not necessarily Christian) or an atheist, you are merely speculating, because in the final analysis you can't really "know". You just have a strong opinion one way or the other.

Intelligent Design, now that's a joke! Seriously, it is.

Intelligent Design is what sometimes smart people invent to justify their irrational desires and make magical fantasies about ancient mythology come true. But, the facts all tell us the same thing... the cavemen were wrong and there are no gods.

I think we're confusing "going to church" with "having religion." I have no problem with people who have religion and actually live it; but I know and have known too many church-goers who profess to have religion but certainly don't live what they preach (politicians are noted for this). Personally I have little use for religion because we can neither prove nor disprove the existence of a god (or gods), and too many horrendous things have been done and are still being done in the name of religion. Even so, I'm trying to live a "christian" life. Whether or not I'm successful, who knows; but if everyone tried the same, this world would be a much better place.

To the posters here. I know plenty of scientists, engineers and doctors who are ardent believers in God. Graudates of MIT, Harvard, VTech, some work for NASA and other major scientific research companies. All ardent believers in God and the Bible. If all the people you know who go to church are in the "social sciences" maybe that's because most of the people you know are not scientists.
As one poster commented, "This constant attempt to denigrate people of faith is both bigoted and ignorant."

Engineer here. Proficiency is mathmatics and science doesn't negate one's belief in God.

To the posters here. I know plenty of scientists, engineers and doctors who are ardent believers in God. Graudates of MIT, Harvard, VTech, some work for NASA and other major scientific research companies. All ardent believers in God and the Bible. If all the people you know who go to church are in the "social sciences" maybe that's because most of the people you know are not scientists.
As one poster commented, "This constant attempt to denigrate people of faith is both bigoted and ignorant."

It's a simple fact that most scientists are atheists or at least agnostic. At least research scientists. Among members of the NAS a 1998 survey showed 72.2% of respondents said god doesn't exist. 20.8% were agnostic and only 7% were believers. These numbers have been constant (and rising) since the first surveys were conducted in 1914. In 1914 52.7% of respondents said they were atheists.

http://www.stephenjaygould.org/ctrl/news/file002.html

So maybe you somehow know "plenty" but they aren't the norm.

I would have to concur with Ian - although most people know someone who is both religious and a scientist/doctor/engineer, I'd hesitate to say that most or even many are. Rather, is it possible if you know so many who are both (scientist & religious) that you don't know many people who aren't religious? Our personal experience is always biased by our preferences... which is probably how internal stereotypes come about.

What an ignorant statement. I go to a very large church in a university town. Some of the most caring, sincere and active worshipers in my church are chemists, biologists, archeologists, doctors, dentists, engineers and some of the country's foremost liquid crystal researchers. Many of them have said you cannot study the amazing things of science and not believe in God.

Many of them have said you cannot study the amazing things of science and not believe in God.

They may think that, but is complete rubbish, in fact it would seem the opposite is true.

The survey referred to in 2.19 shows the majority of top Scientists in the US are irreligious - over 90%.

The figures are even higher for other countries.

That's us, always behind in education.

I wouldn't mind going to church, but they always have all this religious stuff going on.

Mescovic, You're right. But of course sometimes those religions were used to prop up very unequal societies. Part of the role of the church was to tell people "this is your lot in life, you are not to question it nor try to rise above it" while those above them were taking just about everything they had.

Did the societies you're talking about kill millions? Yes, but they would never had gotten hold in society if the churches weren't such willing partners in suppressing the asprirations of their own people.

No one with a thinking mind will ever accept "God did it." as an answer. The scientists you know are merely delusional, or are lazy and don't care to think about it too much. The bible is a collection of contradictions, I mean horrible contradictions, so much that any logical person that actually reads the thing, will be less religious because of it.

People are religious because their parents made them that way. Take a baby from the most christian couple you can find, and give it to a muslim, and guess what, he'll grow into a muslim, the same is true in reverse. Look how many children believe that a non-aging red-suited man is flown by reindeer to everyone's house on christmas, to give them free toys, when you understand why they can believe that, then you will understand why children also believe in god. Those children grow up, and pass that same delusion on to their kids, it's as simple as that.

Most people know there is no god, but they just really want there to be, so they keep the stupid charade going.

and the more I saw how wonderfully and perfectly designed we are. Do not base your opinion of God on any church as all humans are imperfect and will fail your expectations.

Might want to look at that sentence gain, I do believe you contradicted yourself.

Preceded, our material bodies were wonderfully engineered. However, mentally we are experiential in nature so therefore tend to be poor judgmentally.

Then we aren't so perfectly designed, are we?

our material bodies were wonderfully engineered

You may want ot consult a biologist or a physiologist first. Have them fill you in on the laundry list of items in our "material bodies" that are of extremely poor design.

I should add that the New Testament has less than a capitalist view of moral righteousness.

....of who has more is always deemed more favorable to god than those who do not.

I just want the meanness out of my faith! It doesn't belong!

A day late but as I have been saying for too many years; here is a perfect example of contempory science and research.

True Scientific Method is Dead. The Socratic Method is long gone.

This man beings his research with an "assumption," rather than a "hypothesis."

Bad science is being passed off as absolute. I don't believe a word of it. Double and triple check....

Give me any hypothesis, tell me your desired results and I or any good scientist, including those who work with the Social Science can prove it any way you want. Bah.

Dwigttruth - try reading the Bible. Jesus said that the poor widow who gave two mites gave far more than all the wealthy and her offering was looked upon more favorably. God doesn't care about money; only we foolish people do.

b - if you don't care then give some of yours to me!

I don't think you know what "Calvanism" is. I suggest you do a little research before you make uninformed statements. There is nothing in Calvanism that teaches any form of wealth being a demonstration of God's approval of anyone. AND the mega-churches I know of don't teach anything approaching Calvanism. One more thing, the prophetic messages of the Old Testament were meant for God's chosen people, the Hebrew nation.

dwight

Good, but that only explains why the working class is diminishing at the altar. The reason why there are more white-collar worshippers? God[TM] is gold for politics and business. Any chance Texans have smartened up enough to see Perry for the hypocrite he is?

Really? People have higher degrees and better grades but I doubt they are better educated. I know very few people who read any great literature anymore. People go to a school trying to learn to make a living instead of how to live their life. Do you believe society is any happier now? Doesn't seem that way to me. I have never in my life met so many people who are educated, wealthy, and miserable.

Our educators are not allowed to open young minds, just get them to pass the "test" and ready them to be pecked to the bones by the waiting Capitalists.

I would challenge you to find a sixth-grade reader from the 1920's or so and compare it to the reading done today.

I am an agnostic at best, but I remember being in biology classes in college and thinking "could all this be so perfect just by chance or is/was there a design?". I met many people who began believing in some God or design after studying science.

I have two college degrees and have never felt they have added to my happiness or understanding of the basic questions of "why?" and "what happens when we die?".

RedSquirell

You're asking the questions, why? and what happens when we die? That by definition makes you NOT a believer. Were you a church goer you'd be busily trying to buy your way into some mystical heaven...

Red Sq,

Look at a dead leaf or perhaps some road kill for your answer. It's really simple. If you continue to "exist," it is in the functioning memories of those still alive. That's it. You turn to compost.

Carmen,

Good to know that church is admittedly about credibility and status in a community. Not about a 'god'.

Religion is such a joke

No religion is not a joke. It may not work for you but there are millions of people throughout the world who need religion to keep them on the straight and narrow, and give them hope, even if to you and I it's false hope.

Don't be so quick to dismiss religion. Personally, I'm an atheist but I understand how some people need the... um, "pressure" of a father figure watching over them to behave in an ethical manner. The crumbling of society can be directly attributed to people's lack of religion.

That said, there are plenty of hypocrites that pretend to be religious. My time working the Bible Belt has taught me that.

Mj,

Are you referring to the Taliban or Westboro? Yeah religion has definitely kept people on the straight and narrow. If you didn't agree with the catholic church, you were executed. If you were thought to be a witch, you were burnt. If you were unlucky enough to be in the towers, you were hit by a plane.

All great accomplishments of religion.

yaaaaaaay

It shouldn't be a matter of "religion" but a matter of a relationship with Jesus Christ.

Amen, Jean. I hate the word "religion".

Jean, Robyn,

Just a note, here. There ARE other religions, you know. Some indigenous people in the northwest think the Great Raven pried open a clam and released man into the world. Who's to say they're wrong? It makes as much sense as the Jesus myth.

Sherrie -- You're absolutely right. Also, for those who think the bible is "original," check out other and older religions and you'll find much similarity. I quite like the raven story -- somehow, it sounds much more creative than being created from a rib. I can hear that raven now: "OK you guys, here you go. You're off and running!"

I love icelandic mythology. Its very rich and compelling. Most mythos have common elements (how we got fire, why we lost immortality, etc). A lot of the Christian stories have strong elements in common with many others. Is it a result of the cultural intermixing of the roman empire? The adoption of 'pagan' ideas inside of their own? Its all very interesting, and quite enjoyable to study.

Gwen, it is the result of incorporating the pagan myths with Christian ones. This is why Christmas is in winter. It supplanted the old mid winter festivals. Incorporating old myths with the new made it much easier to spread Christianity.

Oh yes, and christmas really isn't alone. Easter is another lovely one. A lot of our holidays have the remnants of pagan mythology in them. However, I'm not speaking just of the holiday attributes, but even more basic things. The apple story is in many mythos to varying degrees, as is the flood myth. These are more than just facial adaptations, they are core stories. I'd love to study cultural anthropology around the earliest parts of societal development, see if one can trace the travelling of a story, or conclude that they are similar only because certain events will occur everywhere (like a flood)

Gwen,

The Urantia Book is filled with 'cultural anthropology around the earliest parts of societal development.' The flood myth began as a grain of truth, then it was greatly exaggerated:

Urantia Book, page 874, last paragraph: ... 'as the Hebrew priests in Babylonian captivity sought to trace the Jewish people back to Adam, they found great difficulty in piecing the story together; and it occurred to one of them to abandon the effort, to let the whole world drown in its wickedness at the time of Noah's flood, and thus be in a better position to trace Abraham right back to one of the three surviving sons of Noah.

The traditions of a time when water covered the whole of the earth's surface are universal. Many races harbor the story of a world-wide flood some time during past ages. The Biblical story of Noah, the ark, and the flood is an invention of the Hebrew priesthood during the Babylonian captivity. There has never been a universal flood since life was established on Urantia (earth). The only time the surface of the earth was completely covered by water was during those Archeozoic ages before the land began to appear.

But Noah really lived; he was a wine maker of Aram, a river settlement near Erech. He kept a written record of the days of the river's rise from year to year. He brought much ridicule upon himself by going up and down the river valley advocating that all houses be built of wood, boat fashion, and that the family animals be put on board each night as the flood season approached. He would go to the neighboring river settlements every year and warn them that in so many days the floods would come. Finally a year came in which the annual floods were greatly augmented by unusually heavy rainfall so that the sudden rise of the waters wiped out the entire village; only Noah and his immediate family were saved in their houseboat.'

The Urantia Book also explains all of the other things you wrote about.

Hey, didn't see your post before I made the exact same observation below it. Glad someone else sees it.

With Michele Bachmann promising two dollar ass (or was that gas ?), who needs networking ?

Not at my church. It is vibrant with people with deep religious conviction and servant hearts.

Invisible Hand. you could not have been more spot on. My town i live in have 24 different "churches" and those are only the ones who claim to be Christian. They show up with thier Starbucks in hand and start networking. The litttle magazine for our twon has a business section with the anthem "business" club. these are all from the same "Church". Ask any of them a Bible Question and they say I am a spiritual Christian i don't need the bible.

Granny, deep religious conviction? (This is under the assumption it is a so called "Christian" church. if you are muslim, buddist, hindu, or any other then these points do not apply. BUT if you Say your church is "Christian" then that means you follow the Bible and Jesus Commands.)

If you have any in your church that "live together" but are not married then your church does not have "deep religious conviction". If your Church has members that kill others in the Governments wars then your church does not have "deep religious conviction". If your Church tells lies about God by saying he Burns people in enternal fire then your church does not have "deep religious conviction". If your church Prays to other Gods other than the one God of the bible, Jesus' Father, then your church does not have "deep religious conviction" Such as to "Saints" to triune Godhead or "Trinity" as Catholicism calls it. If your church has members who have sex outside of marraige then your church does not have "deep religious conviction". If your Church follows Traditions of men such as saying wrote prayers , then your church does not have "deep religious conviction". if your church celebrate other gods such as the god Eostre. or the Roman Saturnalia then your church does not have "deep religious conviction". If i do not have to explain those two celebration are Easter and Christmas because you already know the origins but celebrate to other gods anyway then your church does not have "deep religious conviction".

Of course this is ONLY if your Church says it is "Christian" which mean you must follow the Bible. the truth about the bible NOT lies such as mentioned above if your church does any of the above then IT DOES NOT FOLLOW THE BIBLE and therefore is NOT christian. " I never knew you! Get away from me, YOU workers of lawlessness" Matt7:23

But then again if your church is NOT Christian and is just trying to be the best they can be and be kind people and loving to each other and to all people then that is great! And I hope your "religious conviction" keeps you kind and loving to all others in what ever way your Church can. For example if your Church is Buddist then the above of course does not apply to you and i hope your buddist religious convictions keep you well.

@grannyblb-3902878 That's what everyone says....until they find out the pastor has been molesting little boys.

"Not a bone of sincerity in them."

Awfully broad brush. Mind reader?

Actually, with a college degree, I fit the criteria of this article and do have a great devotion to our Lord. Instead of mocking us, why not educate yourselves and find the truth?

The brush is way too broad. None of my co-workers were in the same church I attended, through three city moves and three separate industries. Networking wasn't a consideration up to retirement has certainly hasn't been since.

Of course, I don't fall in the surveyed age group -- but my children do. All attend churches regularly (they would define it as faithfully) with their own children (and grandchildren, too)

The problem with extrapolating from small surveys can be that the results are skewed.

Seriously? How can you read an article like this and condemn all college educated church going white people as insincere. It's not immoral to be a college educated white person and go to church! Here's the deal, even college educated white people seek spirituality and communion with their Lord and other like minded people. To call them insincere takes an incredibly narrow view.

Some Sanity Please - may we have some sanity please? I could not disagree more. I have been a church goer for most of my life. I go to

1. Keep the Sabbath day holy. A commandment.

2. To learn more about my Savior Jesus Christ and our heavenly Father and be reminded weekly of my duty to others and of their love for me.

3. To commune with others who are like minded and feel the peace of the Holy Spirit.

4. To sing praises to the Lord with my husband in the choir.

5. To receive the sacrament of communion and renew my commitment to the Lord.

6. To teach the Sunday School class that I was asked to teach. I am both humbled and blessed with this responsibility.

In case any one is wondering I am blessed to be a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints for almost 25 years now. Best thing I ever did for myself and my family. I am a better wife, mother and Christian. Thank you.

Some sanity please- How would you know this? Perhaps it is you who goes to church to network.. hmmm.. I feel it is a very broad brush to paint people with.

I am in college and my mother has a masters, i dont remember her EVER handing out a business card at ANY church function or service. I think you need to look at yourself before you condemn others!!

Ah, but Linda, you're not Christian. Haven't you heard all that from certain evangelicals (which is the group I think most posters are complaining about). These people seem more intent on criticizing others than anything else.

As for neworking, certainly it goes on. How often have there been news stories of people getting fleeced in investment scams that were started by somebody in their church? People have a tendancy to trust their fellow churchgoers more so they willing follow along in things that they might normally be sceptical of. And scammers know this.

Linda, I hope I didn't mean to imply that you're not Christian. Just that I've heard too many supposedly upstanding church members spreading that rot (also that Catholics aren't Christian, Muslims are devil worshippers and on and on).

AngelP you say "Lord" Since there are many "gods and lords" which one are you refering to?

"you're not christian"

Sorry, had to laugh.

Linda,

Then you know there is a guy right now going around to Texas Baptist churches teaching the Mormons are going to hell because they do not have "Faith in Jesus" and are works based. Is that the love you think is being taught in churches? Maybe that is what some people are speaking of. Now even if you try to be "Christ-like" you are going to be preached against in some churches.

Some churches feel the bible is filled with mystery...like why Jesus died Friday night and was raised before Sunday morning, but still fits the three days and three nights scripture Jesus refered to. Satan is the "Great Deceiver" but churches teach Jesus' birthday was on Christmas or the Sun God's Birthday, which is not true. Then Christianity has a few choices to choose from when learning about the book of Revelation.

How many churches have you sat through besides your own? You might be a little surprised to hear some of what they teach. The laws and commandments in the bible were just put there to show people they are sinners. It goes on and on.

Hmm, Beth, good try but not close to the truth. I go to Mass to worship our God in communion with the other people attending, not for any so-called networking.

Angel --

I highly suspect you network at church, whether you call it "communion" or not ... or whether you believe it or not ... or whether it's even your primary purpose for being there or not. You still do it. (I cannot say KNOW, because I do not know you, therefore, I SUSPECT).

What I do KNOW, because I know many of them, is that people go to church, network at church and develop their own little groups that extend far past the church. It is undeniable that churches are becoming power bases in this country and that, my friend, is networking.

Folks who so easily and readily use the word, networking, are full time manipulators, who cannot conceive of people who are not.

Beth? Bullpucky. You know nada.. an example of "an attempt at knowledge when it is but minutiae is a dangerous thing."

Beth, you have made some very judgmental statements. To generalize like that is bigoted. I have attended evangelical churches most of my adult life. These people show their faith by their words and actions. They serve others , wanting nothing in return. Of course we would never have become affiliated with a church that served primarily as a social/networking source. The church we attend now encompasses all walks of life. We have Ph.D professors from our university to people who dress Goth and have multiple (and I mean multiple) piercings and tattoos, and never finished highschool. We are united by our relationship to Christ and to each other. And to tell Angel that YOU think she networked is really beyond judgmental. It's presumptuous and intrusive. YOu know nothing about her. Of course, there are "bad apples" in any sphere where human beings live , play and work. But to make those kinds of general statements are ridiculous, and unfounded as you can see by just the posts here.

Sorry to burst your bubble guys - but I know, personally know, too many people who are using their "religion" for just that purpose.

I never said ALL ... but you choose to read it that way.

And to tell Angel that YOU think she networked is really beyond judgmental. It's presumptuous and intrusive. YOu know nothing about her

I SPECIFICALLY said I suspect and not know, because I didn't know her. And sorry, I still do THINK so. And actually, I see that there are people who agree with me as well as people who agree with you.

Churches have become a power base in this country. Whether YOUR particular church is one of them, I cannot say. But many of them are. If you choose to ignore it, that's fine with me too.

If you wish to have the last word, you're welcome to it; I don't feel I should have to repeat what I have clearly said yet again.

You suspect and don't even know her-I would say judgmental. My church experiences (I've lived in several states) have always, (yes always) been positive. Obviously, others have too. It's not about "getting the last word" . That's "middle school mentality". It's about a community of believers who cherish their faith and the fellowship of believers. I certainly don't make assumptions about you because you don't attend church.

So Beth your definition of networking is forming friendships and relationships?? Well then my friend you network everyday of your life. Yet again, what is w this networking thing. So if i speak to someone at my church who is in the field to ask for advice this is networking?? If someone asks me to help them this is networking? I think you need to look at the definition of networking and find a different point to make. I will not deny that it does happen, but it also happens at conventions, and places of recreation. So i feel this whole networking thing has been beaten with a stick!!

Beth -- When it comes to politics at least, you hit the nail right on the head, but you see the same thing in other places. You see it in the business world too. One place I worked at had a lunch-time bible study group and the "members" definitely favored each other. I see it at the Curves I go to where there seem to be religious groupies. They even have the gall to play christian religious music over the system. (makes me wonder why I haven't seen the quiet little Muslim woman there lately). Yet some of these people seem to have a strange notion of what christianity is supposed to be about. They spout hate, intolerance, and very little compassion. Is this supposed to turn me on to religion, let alone going to church? No doubt there are people out there who are truly religious and practice what they preach, but somehow I think they're in the minority.

Rachel - I would say much of what you described is networking. Why do so many take offense to that? Its like beth said everyone was a cannibal. Networking happens at church, like any group activity. It just does. Its not bad nor good. It just tends to be more powerful because many are more willing to promote others who are... like minded... than someone they meet at a conference. Whats more, church tends to be ongoing networks (i.e. relationships).

In any case, I'm sure you're all aware there are people who abuse the system of the church, and use it for popularity. Its not saying YOU do, just that some do, and sometimes quite effectively.

Beth,

I went to church, 9 years worth of humiliating Sundays, in more than a dozen churches in 3 states growing up. We couldn't find one where the other women wouldn't gossip or make fun of my mother, or where they wouldn't spank my brothers and I in Sunday School, or where there was an atmosphere of peace and devotion rather than hatred and judgment.

Don't let the church-goes here sway you with their personal stories of devoutness. Of course they're going to scramble to puff up and defend themselves when there's a finger of judgment pointed at them for a change.

I'm sure there are some fine, upstanding church-goes out there... as individuals. But get them together, and it's the bad apples that ruin it for everyone. It's nothing more than a high school cafeteria for grown-ups. Same gossip, same popularity contests. Sanctioned hypocrisy.

Amen, TotusTuus!

Any one with a credible education knows that the Bible and by extension the church have nothing in common with the truth.

sanity...quite the opposite. Truth is exactly what it is about. Can't you see the Bible as a remarkable history, perhaps in metaphor, of humanity? Some folks believe it "literally." Nothing wrong with that.

Personally I value the King James for its poetry (did you know its translators were contemporaries of Shakespeare?). I was brought up with the Douay in which as I have grown older I find in it a remarkable, more extensive account of values to honor, especially today.

I simply cannot believe that people here and on any other innocuous article about Catholicism who are so flagrantly insecure themselves that they scream and holler against any shadow of their opposite... good vs. evil and simply a structure to help understand what each results in.

Good? human survival with honor. Evil? misery, pain, and an unhappy life.

I find it funny that when well educated people like scientists promote and support scientific facts like evolution, the believers want to shoot them down and poo-poo science. A story like this comes out, and now its the smart people that attend church who know the truth, and the lesser educated that are wrong.

BTW, don't miss the part that said even amongst the well educated, church attendance is going down. Another interesting point is that if you ask people if they are believers, probably 85 percent or more would say they are, but apparently they don't feel that attending church is part of their belief, since it seems across the board white attendance is less than 50 percent. Just more of the hypocrisy so rampant in religion, where people pick and choose which parts to believe and follow, and which parts don't apply to them. Usually those choices are what is convenient for them, and little to do with actual beliefs.

Second - I appreciate the way you put that. Truth is often subjective not objective, and there are many elements of truth in religion. Societal truths and so forth.

I can't always honor the 'values' espoused in the bible, however. I'm talking more leviticus here, though. :)

Can't you see the Bible as a remarkable history, perhaps in metaphor, of humanity?

Um, no we can't. Either it's history, or it's a metaphor, but it can't be both. History should be fact-based. Clearly the Bible is not history, since it was written, mistranslated, and has been re-mistranslated too many times, that the current version is sure to be unrecognizable from the original (which was written by people, by the way, not god). Not to mention the catholic church rewrote and cherry-picked the gospels it thought best to include. Ever play the game "Telephone" when you were a kid?

Some folks believe it "literally." Nothing wrong with that.

Yes, there is A LOT wrong with that, because as I've said, the Bible today is not a pure book, and to believe it literally would be gross misinterpretation. Not to mention that we would still be stoning the majority of people and avoiding menstruating women.

Personally I value the King James for its poetry (did you know its translators were contemporaries of Shakespeare?).

More evidence that Biblical translators were emulating style rather than striving for accuracy. Who knows what they changed just to make it sound "poetic"?

Truth is exactly what it is about.

Then why is it that any time anyone questions religion, and the religious person in question can't find an answer, they write you off as a heretic, immoral, or you're simply told to "have faith"? I'm sorry, but if you're going to tout any religion as the one, "true" religion, you're going to have to back up your bold statements a little better than that.

ROFL, Paul, uh huh......NOT!

Paul I do believe you have already said that.at least going to Church is better than being a flash mob of thieves.

Bama... luv ur post. Beth, right on. Paul, just what personal experience have YOU had for your claim? And actually, how do YOU define networking?

Just being friends with someone? Gosh, if so, the globe is sure full of sinners (by your definition!)

Second, who on earth said networking was a sin?!

Jon Wolff, The churches that still preach you have to tithe have no knowledge of Christ. To tithe was an extension of the Old Covenant. Jesus did away with that covenant. See : Hebrews 8:13 "In his saying “a new [covenant]” he has made the former one obsolete. Now that which is made obsolete and growing old is near to vanishing away." and Hebrews 9:15 "15 So that is why he is a mediator of a new covenant, in order that, because a death has occurred for [their] release by ransom from the transgressions under the former covenant, the ones who have been called might receive the promise of the everlasting inheritance."

Butterfly... ALL the preachers are millionaires? my gosh you should be embarrassed by such a hopelessly illogical statement.

In argumentation you lost the debate on all counts. Flawed generalization, false analogy, fatal non-facts, and even a not so implied ad hominem fallacy... lol i.e. name-calling.

I don't know any millionaire preachers. And you know them how?

Allan-46791 Hate to tell you but there are a lot of Black churches and I do not believe that they vote Republican.I do believe we all worship god not a political party.I do not go to church much but when I do go i do not care what religion it is nor the color of the people.

A church is a body of believers. They meet in a building.

Yes, hate and callousness has given our faith a bad face.

I never cease to be amused by posts illustrating the individual has never been in a church him or herself. Or at least not long enough nor old enough to know what is going on.

Easier to blame, as a result, for their own hopeless inadequacies.

Most churches don't judge or hate. Times have changed. People have changed. Ideologies have changed. Society as a whole has changed. Most churches stay the same. Religion is about conforming to a specific mindset and adhering to certain constant standards. Society has always changed its standards and expects those around it to change along with it. And those that refuse to change are labeled as bigots, racists, zealots, and haters by those that expect change in everyone and everything to suit their standards. Then those that expect everyone and everything to change cry equality and tolerance all the while denying equality and tolerance from those that differ from them.

I apologize if anyone calling themselves Christian has ever made you feel judged or treated you with hate. At our church we preach only love, acceptance, and forgiveness. These are the fundamentals of following Jesus. Anyone who does not live by the gospel is either "playing" church or missing the message altogether. Too many have done things to ruin the label of being Christian. That is why I choose to be known as a believer. May God bless you. Even if you don't believe in him, he believes in you and loves you very much. No matter what.

Many churches do preach intolerance or hate. It is unfortunate that those poison the well for the churches that don't spread such things. They certainly did for me. I was a never a true 'believer' but hearing the hatred spouted against women who had abortions, gays, and muslims (which was the most common hate point) made me sick. I cannot abide by that, and I've never had the will to try and find a truly loving, non-political church.

SecondSight1

I never cease to be amused by posts illustrating the individual has never been in a church him or herself. Or at least not long enough nor old enough to know what is going on.

Easier to blame, as a result, for their own hopeless inadequacies.

#16.2 - Sun Aug 21, 2011 8:10 PM EDT

I never cease to be amazed by assumptions made about the less religious. I grew up going to church. I don't believe in god any more than I do the boogeyman. I have always made it a point to respect others' views about religion and certainly refuse to interfere with prayer. Of course I do fear what would happen should my co-workers ever find out. I keep my lack of faith secret not because I am ashamed, but because I do not want to be labeled as an immoral person, riduculed, treated unfairly, or preached to. Am I a murderer or a thief? No. Do I have morals? Yes. Belief in god is not a requirement to be a good person. People can be hateful in all communities.

As a pastor, I wish I could say that I disagree with this comment, but I don't. On behalf of Christian churches I would would like to offer an apology for often being to judgemental and sometimes even hypocritical towards those who don't attend church or consider themselves a follower of Christ. That's not the way Christ intended us to be. www.lastingimpactchurch.com

the apology is a nice touch, but you are STILL DELUDED

Of course, that statement that Tampa, FL just offered is full of judgment. When you're not supposed to judge, and then you offer a judgment, that my friends is called a contradiction. Where I come from they call an that argument that commits suicide.

God's Word does judge and the true pastor or shepherd rightly delivers the message the way God intends it, even if that Word slices him right down the middle. Jesus found himself on the cross because his Word judged, divided people and ostracized many. Of course Christ loved. Everything he did was loving. Maybe our American definition of love is skewed and completely off. Telling someone, like an adulteress or homosexual, that they are in conflict with God's Word is the most loving thing anyone can do. Would you rather suffer the wrath of the Pastor or the wrath of God. I choose to hear it from my Pastor or Christian brother first before I stand before a Holy God who will judge each man and women's work impartially. Faithful are the wounds of a friend.

Churches stay the same??? Women still wear long dresses and don't show their ankles? They wear bonnets and cover their heads? The man still protects and provides for his family? The divorce rate (since marriage is not for gays and is bible based) has remained the same as it did hundreds of years ago? The bible states for the slave to obey his master (Sarai/Sarah's slave, not talking about slaving for two masters), which the church in the south a couple hundred years ago taught. The bible also says if a man rapes a woman his must marry her.

Wow, please tell me which church you go to. I thought most Christian churches change with what people want to be taught, not teach what the bible says.

It probably is 10% where you come from. The 80% of people who go to church in Texas, South Carolina, and other horrible places, skews the data.

rip,

What is the zip code for Utopia? Isn't that where you live?

What's important is "relationship". Your relationship with God. If taken seriously that Relationship will provide Peace in your life.

Dr. D, praying to an invisible is as loony as it can get. Sure you will find peace. Since you have lost all senses of reality and pray to an invisible man in the sky and hand over your cash to a bunch of charlatans.

Little by little, church and religion decay will put an end to all this frivolous bs and nonsense.

God is not a "man" as we understand man. And The Sky is not the residence - it's Heaven. I have never handed over my cash - I support the ideals that promote Peace in Today's world, for those who care to follow that road.

I prefer the theme of Relationship within My reality whether or not that conforms to what brings you or others contentment with your existance.

Nothing is for free. How does this church run? The "collection plate" is to keep the church facilities running, to help the local poor and needy, and to help the kids programs at church, among other things. The fact is the more you give-whether it be money, time, or talent- the more you get back. If you don't have money to give, then give of your time and talent.

Some churches take money for politcal reasons too, cc. Technically they're not supposed to, but there are ways around which (some) churches exploit. A lot of folks don't want churches to meddle in politics.

Political speeches from the pulpit are illegal for tax-exempt organizations, which all churches are. The fact that the IRS has been lax in enforcing tax rules on Republican-run political pulpits does not make the act of giving political speeches from the pulpit while not paying taxes any less illegal.

acting like the rate of decline is caused because educated people are more clever

It's not cleverer, it's more educated. You're missing the point. It's more difficult to believe in hocus pocus of any kind if you can see the man behind the mirror. Now if you choose not to look behind the mirror then you have no one to blame but yourself.

Most people live in a fantasy of their own choosing. If it includes a god of some sort, good for them. It's no more loony than stalking an actor or dreaming you'll be on the Real Housewives of Peoria, one day.

Melian... well written, well analysed.

Keith, nothing wrong with that. And I respect you for it ... that you stay in touch with the important part.

It is sad that you are unwilling to share your talents and skills without compensation. A congregation has responsibility to see that the building in which it worships is maintained, that the lights and heat are provided, that the pastor(s), office staff and others receive a salary and that mission activities are funded. Offerings usually do not cover all the needs of a church. It is too bad that you do not joyfully serve the Lord in any way you can as a loving response for what He has given you. (BTW, the root of all evil is the love of money.)

grannyblb - I give of my resources, and if I am guilty of something it is love of my time. My problem with you is like many other Christians you couldn't talk to me about my comment without trying to use guilt to convince me that I should do it your way. Christians are good at that, I don't buy it, I wasn't born a sinner and taking care of myself isn't a sin.

I do give joyfully to the church but I give what I choose, not what others think I should give.

So, the result of my experience with many churches over the course of my 60 years is that I will not be a member of a church. I will go to church to fulfill my needs as a Christian and to feed my soul as needed.

Here we go again with some one trying to make a political statement. How many Black churches support the Republican party?

amen

Bama, we all know, and for good reason, the black community is decidedly Democratic. And you know churches frequented for the most part by whites have a Republican pulpit. We are both from the south and you know of what I speak.

Allan when I go to church I do not ask the person beside me how they vote.By the way I am for the South myself and I use to vote Democrat before I learned better.

Who "learned ya"?

Tiredoftheright .After Pulling or voting for Jimmy Peanut Carter I have not voted democrat again and also I could never vote for some one that believes in Killing little unborn babies.

Yes ST, people who go to church, vote Republican, and try to work-the-system, either don't know what a pyramid looks like, or they think that it doesn't apply to them.

It is embarrassing to read the ignorant, idiotic political attacks here. No knowledge, no facts, no brains are displayed. Totally illogical generalizations... Where do you think Obama finds a hall where he speaks on his little political crusade across our country?

Scary that there are actually people like some here that even exist? Is it poor education in our schools? TV? (that has gotten so pathetic I cancelled the cable... lol saved money... but more, saved my brain, for.. ye gods... here?) Tell me so many ignorant assertions are not in the genes, I implore you.

hmmm Must we question the old adage, "survival of the fittest"? whew... How much of the global population will last with more and more of the "survival of the unfittest"?

x

Bongoman, I am gald to see you will not be quilty of trying to force your views on others. I feel the same way. Now if we could only get the atheists, non-beleviers and clearly democrat political hacks to feel that way it would be great.

All you have to do is look at the majority of the posts here to see that it is NOT the christians who are trying to force the views on everyone else.

Reading a comment that conflicts with your own opinion equates to having a view "forced" on you. Weak mind.

Do you belive in Santa Claus???

Some Sanity Please,

If you were half as intelligent as you think you are you would realize that you are reflecting your own weak mind, but you are free to believe or not believe what ever you wish to.

Dan-312359,

Surely you are smart enough to know how stupid your question is. I'm sorry, I should not have assumed that you are smart enough.

It is NOT the christians who are trying to force their views on everyone? Hello? The christians do not even admit the possibility that any of the other of the world's religions could be true--you have to have a "relationship" with "Jesus." What the hell? It's that kind of magical, and closed-loop, thinking that makes the scoffers scoff. As someone else said here about a week ago, atheism isn't a faith, it's a conclusion. Lose the religious arrogance and the air goes out of your argument.

Not all christians force their views on others... but many do. Forcing their way into schools in the south, for instance. No, I don't think atheism should be forced, but an absence of mentioning god in the class is not the same thing as promoting atheism, anymore than an absence of mentioning mayans is somehow implying they don't exist. I would support religious concepts in schools if all religions were represented, but those who push religion tend to push only their own.

That said, there ARE people who vehemently push an atheistic agenda, which isn't fair either. Separate means separate, for all parties. Though many posts here are on the anti-religion side, I have seen SO many condemning all the 'atheistic welfare scum'... which is terrifying. No, I don't mean all of you religious posters out there. Can't we agree to live and let live, perhaps? Try and keep all of our mitts out of school and politics. It would be lovely :)

BobbyG1947

Angry, accusatory, over-simplistic judgment like yours is why atheists are so vehemently speaking out against religion. Many of us went to church as children, and were turned away from their church by people just like you. The church has had it's reign--over 2000 years of violence, hatred and bloodshed (crusades, inquisitions, witch trials, Nazi Germany, slavery, need I say more?). Maybe it's time you felt our wrath, for a change.