Too bad he doesn't understand the scriptures...

"Robertson was asked what advice a man should give to a friend who began seeing another woman after his wife started suffering from the incurable neurological disorder."

The scriptures do not prevent a man from taking an additional wife. There is no reason this man should have to "divorce" his wife that is suffering to have an additional relationship. The monogamy doctrine is simply a lie.

http://www.biblicalfamilies.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=57&t=2063

I'm for spending less time trying to decode the "Scriptures." And more time using some common sense. I find most of these right wingers have not got the sense God gave a goose. No wonder they need a book.

This will probably make Mrs Pat Robertson very happy? If people would just follow the bible? remember this biblical piece of advice. Ruth patiently waited for her mate Boaz. While you're waiting on YOUR Boaz, please don't settle for any of his relatives like; Broke-az, Po-az, Lyin-az, Cheatin-az, Goodfornothing-az, Lazy-az, and especially not his cousin Beatinyo-az! Wait on your Boaz and make sure he respects Yo-az... haha love it...OH and don't forget Jack-azzzzzzzzzz.............bible folks don't be angry it is just a joke.

What ever happened to "In sickness and in health" for "richer and poorer"

TILL DEATH DO US PART

Wait until it is your turn pat.

It is truly amazing that people send this idiot money and support him. Just keep your money, and turn the channel and he will go away. This guy is like the Jerry Springer of TV Evangelists. (Sorry to offend you Jerry)

What would he have said if his hero .. Ronnie Reagan ..would have been divorced by Nancy

Nancy didn't get a divorce because she was getting drilled by the help anyway. Her bedroom had a revolving door on it.

Divorce in any case is ok. It's not pleasant, but it's okay. You shouldn't have to be miserable for the rest of your life because you made a mistake and said some words 10, 15, or 20 years ago.

Have some bacteria gotten to his brain?

No, there's just bacteria INSTEAD of a brain.

I'm not surprised, this is after all the same man who agreed that America deserved 9/11 because of the gays and the atheists. Sadly there is always a group of people that flock to those that spout hate, see the rise of right wing extremists here and abroad (the Norway shootings being terrible results of those that preach intolerance).

If corporations can be declared people, can't Robertson be declared an idiot?

I thought he had died. Did someone forget to tell him ??? Or did he just forget himself ???

Wow...every time I think conservatives couldn't become any more pathologically lacking in empathy they prove me wrong.

And "Christians" wonder why they have a bad name among people who question the existence of a god. It's due to hypocrites such as Robertson.

What would he have said if his hero .. Ronnie Reagan ..would have been divorced by Nancy

Of course that wouldn't be the case because Pat believes only the man can make the decision to divorce.

I am pretty sure he is the devil

Another example of the religious zealot christian right being totally anti-christian. Robertson must have Alzheimers because he clearly has forgotten the compassion of Christ.

Divorce in any case is ok. It's not pleasant, but it's okay. You shouldn't have to be miserable for the rest of your life because you made a mistake and said some words 10, 15, or 20 years ago.

Stop being miserable sooner. Why wait until he/she comes down with ALZ.

@btone, on what are you basing this allegation on Nancy Reagan. A discredited book alleging she had an affair with Frank Sinatra? I personally have nothing against divorce, I've been divorced once myself, but leave someone that this whole mess is not even about out of it.

Extream Right Christians = America's Taliban.

Christian televangelists- the new face of satanism.

Ah. So it's a "kind of death" b/c the person's memory and mental capacity are diminished. Well, since a fetus has NO memories and NO mental capacity, it's even more "kinda dead". So therefore, it can't be life! Thanks, Pat. You handed a gift to the pro-choice side.

Nice one bonos, haha. I'm gonna have to remember that one.

Ah. So it's a "kind of death" b/c the person's memory and mental capacity are diminished. Well, since a fetus has NO memories and NO mental capacity, it's even more "kinda dead". So therefore, it can't be life! Thanks, Pat. You handed a gift to the pro-choice side.

Anything he can say to justify using illness as an excuse for screwing around on your spouse, but womens' rights be dammed.

So if it is a 'kind of death', I am assuming he would not be against assisted suicide in this case either! P.O.S.

It's bad enough to have people like satan worshippers, Pat Robertson, espouse despousing due to illness. Then we have idiots like "Tiredof theCrap" post crap that supports multiple wives (plural marriage). It's painfully apparent neither of them understands the scriptures.

Gee, I wonder if "Tired.." would support multiple "husbands" and not just multiple wives? My bet is he's just as much of a hypocrite, like Mr. Robertson.

I thinks it's more than time to divorce Pat Robertson for all his followers.

I thought marriage was the pinnacle of Christianity. The institution they fight so hard to protect from the "gays". The vows that includes sticking around during sickness. If a religious leader can take these vows so lightly, why aren't these Christians coming out to condemn him and ask him to step down from his influential position? ***Cricket*** Oh, you can't, huh? He created a multi-million dollar empire based on the good book.

Robertson is just another crook using religion and politics to promote himself and profit from it handsomely. We have way too many of them in this country.

This jerk Pat Robertson actually makes a lot of money spewing this type of ignorant crap.

He claims to be some kind-of man of god or church or who the hell knows.

Most married couples have taken a vow before God; "through sickness and in health, til death do us part.

Jerk.

Who is still giving this idiot their hard earned cash? Give your money to a truly charitable organization and not this polarizing bigot.

Who actually believes in his religious interpretations? If you believe anything this loon says you deserve to be together forever....until you get Alzheimers...

@ Tiredof thecrap

That was a very interesting link. Thanks.

In it they mentioned the seven churches and that: We can also see that Scripture actually calls some churches at this time, a “synagogue of Satan” (Rev. 2:9; 3:9).

I believe that is still true today. Many churches seem to only be interested in how much money they can get from their members. After listening to Pat Robertson and the many others TV evangelist one has to wonder just what their priorities are. Same with these religious right politicians that have more love for money than they do for their fellow man. Seems to be more Satan than God in their work.

That's just so sweet. What a charmer.
It's okay for someone to divorce their spouse because they are slowly dying and it's all downhill from here? ME ME ME ME ME. I'm not getting the love and companionship anymore so I get a pass on the vow front?
Nevermind all those wonderful years when he made you laugh at the stupidest jokes imagineable (thinking of my honey). Or when he put a rose on the bathroom counter while you were in the shower, just because. The funny little notes you find in the oddest places, freezer, under your keyboard, in your purse. Sorry, but I'm not the kind of person that would shuck all that and leave my honey just because he isn't performing up to snuff anymore. That Mr. Robertson says it's cool says a lot.
My husband is in perfectly good health, thank goodness. But if he weren't, I wouldn't dream of leaving him. EVER.

I wouldn't give up the Robertsons, Bachmans, Perrys, Palins, and Huckabees for anything in the world. These nutcases are always good for some crazy TV. Throwing even a recent set of quotes together from these guys would make a great thing to paste to your wall to make you giggle when you're down.

Al-2739446,

He forgot the compassion of Christ a long time ago, especially when he spoke out against same-sex marriage, claiming that it was a threat to opposite-sex marriage, that it's against the bible, etc.

This latest business is just confirmation for straights of what we gays have already been saying--that those who shriek about protecting the "sanctity" of marriage really mean "sanctimony."

There's simply no validly denying that those who don't like same-sex marriage actually don't care about marriage in general after this latest endeavor by Robertson, and that they just use it as an excuse to be mean to gays simply because they don't like them.

Pat's rationale: If they have Alzheimers, they can't donate their money to me, so screw them... have their spouse divorce them, feel good about it, and send me some money...

Well, so much for the sanctity of marriage between a man and a woman. I guess he will have to revisit gay marriage and come to some different conclusions.

Let's see. Ah, stage 4 cancer is "a kind of death" so go for it folks and run away from the people you love who are about to bite it. It's OK. Abandon the sick and frail. It's the Christian thing to do.

If there is a hell, this man will be there. I better start praying that I don't go to hell because I wouldn't want to be there next to him.

I wonder if we could consider being a religious hate monger "a kind of death" and then just bury the fool Robertson. I will throw in the first shovel full of dirt.

Fake Christians find what they need in Pat Robertson - a person 'of the cloth' who will say it is quite all right to sin so sin away. Chritianity in name and not action is perfectly fine with Pat Robertson's beliefs. You'll see that if you ever watch the 700 Club.

It's why I don't watch the 'Family' channel anymore. 'Family' has become code for fake Christian, as opposed to practising Christian.

grump in NM - I will bring one of those ceremonial gold shovels. He'll love that. He'll be asking for the shovel the whole time we're burying him. "Hey guys...is that real gold...can I have the shovel when you're done."

StMiller, well bless your kind and generous little heart. That was funny. "Can I have the shovel when you're done?" Well, Pat, I don't think it will fit but we can sure try.

Start praying, attend the church or temple of your choice, give generously and give often. You don't want to end up in hell. Your eternal punishment will be to sit and listen to Robertson preach. He will reach down into your soul and your torment will be everlasting. I am sure of it.

Too bad he doesn't understand the scriptures...

Oh, get over it already. It's a silly, goddam mythical cult book written by a bunch of angry, misogynist hash-heads. Grow up!

C'mon reich-wing christian trolls, where are you? Not one of you has the guts to try to justify the latest two-minutes-hate from your spiritual leader. I'm really curious to see how anyone on the religious-reich would defend this.

C'mon... give it a whirl...

The eternal punishment for those who listen to Pat will be to sit and listen to him preach naked...

C'mon people, give Pat a break. it's the first signs of Alzheimer's.

Now that would be poeitic justice!

Obviously he has never dealt with Alzheimer (be it friends, family or just everyday run-ins). I guess, according the pat the preacher, I should of disowned my dad when he was diagnosed with Alzheimer (and later died of it). What a frickin self-righteous A$$hole he is! Thanks for setting Christianity back thousands of years, pat.

The 700 Club needs to distance themselves from this fool...lilke firing his butt.

Being poor is a kind of death, if after you get married you end up in poverty then thats an acceptable excuse to get divorced also.right?

The protestant Pope has spoken! The mouth of God has expressed God's will. What a hypocritical, blasphemous fool.

Old Pat forgot to add: "go ahead...but get power of attorney first."

JKiff,

I am a conservative Christian and you will not find me defending this because he is wrong. My marriage to my wife is for better or for worse, in sickness and in health, richer or poorer, so long as we both live. That is clearly what the scripture say.

Personally, I have never been a fan of Pat, but I am amazed that he said this and is so clearly lining up against scripture. His advise to the man should have been that he quit seeing the other woman.

Religion or no religion it doesn't matter. What a dispicable thing to do! When a loved one has such a terrible disease it's fine to just leave them. Life is tough and life is not fair and never has been but that is NO reason to abandon someone who is ill.

I wouldn't care how bad it could get for me if my wife suffered from a disease like this, I would never, ever walk away. I would do the best I could to make her life as good and comfortable as it could be, no matter what happens.

Are crow's feet a kind of death (just kiddin'...sort of ')??

Use 'em... trash 'em. I guess you just "kinda" make up your own rules for your "kinda" religious vows for your "kinda" marriage. What an a$$!!!

Not all "Christians" Follow Pat Robertson.

I'm amazed at all the so called non-believers posting their hatred. If you don't believe WHY do you read it? Just makes no Sense to me.

As for what he had to say, I think that is something that a couple should come to an understanding about, in the early years of the disease, while they are still capable of reason.

I have known a few individuals with spouses in nursing homes/private care who cannot give them the love and support they had shared before. These people found discrete partners to help them through the long process of watching their spouse slowly die.

Which is better? Divorce or having someone on the side? I'm not sure. That should be up to the individuals.

Sounds like Pat is giving his wife justification to file for divorce.

Doesn't Pat Robertson have Parkinson's disease.

In the later stages, moderate/severe dementia is very common.

Who has the Alzheimer's?. This is one crazy statement.

Marriage Vows, especially in Organized Religion, commands, is "Til Death Do Us Part".

What is he preaching?---In long time marriages, each spouse cares for one another, not necessarily the caretaking, (difficult) but staying together until the bitter end; unless the other spouse approves of seeing someone else.

He is Nuts.

Time to boycott this loser's sponsors.

Janine, we read it so we know that the enemy is thinking. And then we let everyone know we disagree.

Why would anyone waste one minute of their time listening to anything this flaming a-hole has to say? Except maybe for a laugh or two - he's so stupid and ignorant he's amusing, sort of like watching a cat chase a laser dot on the floor. He makes as much sense as "The Big Giant Head" on Third Rock from the Sun reruns...

I can't keep it in anymore. I do not agree with this guy, but stop saying all conservatives feel this way! I am conservative and anti-religious. I know plenty who are, but you only hear about the religious extremists. So go ahead and call this guy nuts cause he is, but don't bring everyone into it.

So Pat Robertson appears to be flip-flopping.
Here's what he had to say about the Terri Schiavo case - which, I think most would argue SHE was much closer to death than someone with Alzheimers is:

Robertson had said the judicial rulings in the Terri Schiavo case amounted to "judicial execution."

Added the evangelist: "A convicted cop-killer wouldn't have gotten treatment like this. It's outrageous."

But of course, a horny dude who cant bang his alzheimers stricken wife, must do what he's got to do.

Janine "I have known a few individuals with spouses in nursing homes/private care who cannot give them the love and support they had shared before. These people found discrete partners to help them through the long process of watching their spouse slowly die."

Oh, how cute "discrete partners"...why do fakely moral people always re-name the sinful acts they do?

Kinda like early americans calling the genocide of Native Americans "Manifest Destiny"...right?

IF GOD EXISTS - I struggle to believe he's going to buy anyone's BS excuses.

Jessica:

In "some" cases such as this, with a spouse having devastating Alzheimer's; it should only be an agreement between the husband and wife, when the spouse having Alzheimer's has learned they will eventually be mentally incapacitated and in a vegetative state..

If the spouse is having a discrete relationship with another, under dire medical circumstances, then that is called Adultery--plain and simple.

How about John Edwards?--was that ok, Pat Robertson?

Did he get this epiphany from Jim Baker?

As the "Church Lady" on Saturday night live would say. "Could it be SATAN?"

Robertson is a good example of what has caused so much strife and division in America today. I am disturbed and disgusted that these purveyors of hate and Mongers of "One brand of Christianity" have gained so much ground in politics. We need much greater separation of church and state, not less. By the way Pat, you weren't reborn, it just felt that way when you pulled your head out of your A$$. Now it is back in there and everything is dark again.

You know... I actually enjoyed reading that thread! Not because Robertson took an a$$ pounding like he actually needs, but watching all of the conservatives whine that they are getting lumped in with him. Then when they go on attack, they have no reservation whatsoever lumping all of the liberals into one stack. I must say that it is just poetic to watch.

Janine, which form of the mortal sin of adultery would you like them to commit? Divorce or just straight up adultery? Either way, they are chalking up a mortal... they might as well enjoy it!

This brings us to the "sanctity of marriage". Please... that was bought and paid for a decade ago by FOX when they aired "Who Wants To Marry A Millionaire". Not one person made a peep about degrading marriage by doing that, but the screaming hissy fits that go on about gays wanting to marry... sheesh. Let's face it... what is so precious about marriage? Half of you get divorced in the end anyways, and I haven't seen any recent numbers, but I think that number is growing. Pat pretty much just said what was unwritten... marriage is no big deal.

I know there is a LOT of competition in this area, but I believe Pat Robertson wins the award for the most idiotic, heartless and hypocritical statement of the year. Maybe even for the decade.

He thinks Alzheimer's = death? Does he include ALL stages of this disease, including the early stages where someone just might forget where they put the car keys? At what point, Pat, does Alzheimer's = death? Considering everyone progresses at a different rate, and some people have only mild symptoms for years, would it still be okay to divorce someone because they forgot where they placed their car keys?!?!?! You friggin' IDIOT!

UMgator, you can't keep your eyes on "Christians" they are human being and sinners by nature. You have to keep your eyes on God. Pat Robertson is a man and might I say a poor example of what a Christian should be like.

I am a born again Christian and as much as I dislike this guy for the lies he tells, he like you, is a human being that God loves. I'm sure God does not like what Robertson is doing but God loves him.

If Robertson is truly saved he will go to heaven, the words "Well Done Thou Good and Faithful Servant" may not be spoken to him by Jesus!

He truly is not a good witness for the love of Jesus and the vows of marriage. God please forgive him and help him to see what a bad witness he is being.

Most of the Evangelists who promote Religion on TV isn't because of their Faith in G-d.

It is because of their Faith in Money $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$.

I am not talking about personal clergymen to the public; their beliefs or churches that serve them.

Debora, I know you are being a good Christian and you understand God's love for mankind. I am sure it breaks your heart as it does mine to hear Robertson say the things he says. If I step back and look at him I can see that he is evil, not just misled. The damage he has done to the Christian community is tremendous. How many people has he turned from God with his ministry of hate and ugliness?

Yes, evil. And all disguised as a good Christian. He has done more damage to the Christian community than good.

Hmmm impotency is a kind of death... This 'man of god' is a living blueprint, as was Jerry Fartwell, of the conservative (read, Fundamentalist) christian con artist/hate peddler.

To those who are getting their fruit of the looms all knotted up about being lumped in with Robertson the 3 card Monty dealer of christianity. IF you aren't a big ol' hate filled lying, thieving bigot like Pattyboy no one is talking about you and you have no reason to be upset.

To the REAL issue at hand, ie; Alzheimer's and dealing with the loss of your other half to it, that is an extremely personal decision for the spouses to work out. The problem with that is how many of us don't want to take a hard look at losing our dearest one and nothing much gets said or agreed upon. The best one can do is conduct themselves in such a way as not to humiliate the spouse with Alzheimer's. This monsterous disease is hardest on the survivors and if it were me fading away with Alzheimer's I'd want my beloved to have the help and confort he will need to get through and to move on with life. I'd rather die with the knowledge that I had the grace to accept, perhaps get to know and like my understudy for the last act. (Yes, at the end I'd probably not know or care who my replacement is but then, I probably wouldn't know my spouse anymore either.)

I agree with you Debora, Christians are sinners by nature...the rest of us are not!

grump in NM (love that state).

I must agree with you about Roberstson. There are too many TV "preachers" who only want money and fame and don't want to tell the truth about Jesus.

Yes I think you may be right he could very well be Evil. I know what he's doing is Evil and hiding behind being a "Chrisitan", if he is, is so sad and brings no honor to God.

Ok Steve, what ever you say. Thank God we all know the truth, we are all born sinners.

Children are born princes and princesses. Their parents turn them into frogs.

riiiiiiibbbit!

How about the fact that this is a religous view not political? You are the ones turning into politics as divorce is perfectly legal for any reason; meaning this has nothing to do with the legal system or politics. This is purely morality question, so keep your 'conservatives are all the same' to yourself. It's called ignorance!

Deb, even the animals? How bout the Dinosaurs? How did god get along with out all us sinners for the millions of years when the Dinosaurs walked this earth? Thank Bugs Bunny your truth is not ours.

Wow. Once again, a person who is a Christian makes a mistake or misspeaks and, instead of just calling it what it is and letting it go, so many thousands of you here take it as an opportunity to bash Christianity in general. Can we NOT do that? Please?

My vow was until death do us part - and that is exactly what I/we intend to do. I have been married one time - 17 years now. I don't care what happens, we are together until the end, because that is the commitment that we made to each other almost two decades ago.

As for Pat - I'm sorry he said that - it's like handing a wagon of idiots a box of grenades.

Pat is constantly misspeaking, and he does so as if he has God's blessing.

He claims God speaks to him.

He is a false prophet.

Ok Moutaineer67, then don't bash idiots.

Ummm... none of your business... eventho I hate talking politics, Robertson did run for president, so he does carry that luggage with him. You can't have the leader of the Religious Right say something stupid without someone bringing politics into it. Plus, how does it feel getting lumped together the way the "lefties" are always lumped together? I do find this quite entertaining.

Mountaineer, it appears that you fall within the 50% that does not get a divorce. Congratulations, only another 30 years to go... good luck!

The trouble is here in America religion bleeds over into politics at a much higher rate then most any other industrialized country. Our political leaders have to pass a pseudo religious litmus test each election cycle, something not seen outside of Muslim countries. The religious right has great political sway and do help pass legislation and laws that church leaders view as keeping inline with their interpretation of the bible, see the Mormon church and Prop 8, or the continual fight against marriage rights for the gays, or heck even adding intelligent design to science books.

Now for my favorite part, with those people always thumping their bibles and screaming about the sanctity of marriage, we have a strongly conservative religious leader who thinks divorcing your spouse based on an illness is ok (must be a Newt supporter), but dear lord because of our 'tolarance' of the gays, we as a country, deservedly were dealt the 9/11 attacks.

No one can doubt the power that the Christian Right has over our political system (and the GOP) and that's why conservatism and religion gets lumped together.

I am conservative and anti-religious. I know plenty who are, but you only hear about the religious extremists.

Well you best stand up, because the party has been under a hostile infiltration since the 1980's by people just like Pat Robertson here. The results of this infiltration are plain as day in the series of GOP candidates.

I'm amazed at all the so called non-believers posting their hatred. If you don't believe WHY do you read it? Just makes no Sense to me.

Because people like Pat Robertson, and his fellow Reconstructionist (see Dominionist) cronies are actively, right now, working their way into the government. This has been going on for decades now actually, and we see it come in waves with Falwell's "Moral Majority" then the "Christian Right" and "Reconstructionist" camps- now it seems to have changed to a more stealthy tactic and taken upon a new mask within the Tea Party, 68% of whom claim to be on the "Christian Right". Their power is not to be underestimated.

A movement heavily influenced by "The Fellowship" or "The Family" and inspired by the writings of racist and bigot R. J. Rushdoony should be watched. Rushdoony's children (who are just as insane) are active in politics btw.

Running for president was not part of the issue. That wasn't what the article was about. Just like I don't agree with people writing about bashing Obama for something like healthcare when the article is about something like his vacation. This is like having a story about the woman who smothered her child and bringing in anti- or pro- abortion. People are gonna do it and over-generalize about any group. The difference is you are lumping religion with politics. When someone generalizes about liberals it is about politics. Like 'all liberals want healthcare reform'. That is one belief of the political system vs. religion.

Shuklak- I agree with you and have to say that's why I'm a conservative, not a republican.

Basically Kinkomaster- I know people are gonna lump us all together like they lump liberals together. I just want to be the one voice saying, 'that's not the way it is'. Cause if I don't, some people will never know the difference. I'd hope that if there were tons of right wing posts getting something wrong by generalizing, I would hope there would be someone saying it's wrong.

None of your Bizz, don't get me wrong... I feel for ya. Sitting on the boards and watching righties and lefties going at it is like watching a gang fight. You either wear the color or you don't. Not like you can kinda wear the color... then the hard core members jump on the "moderate". It is a very sad thing, and as I said... entertaining.

Jessica:

My apologies---I was directing your quotes to Janine--Mia Culpa-!!!!, but wanted to comment on your post--Good one!

Gotta agree with you Kinko. I wrote that I'm anti-religious, so when I do read some of the posts/arguments about abortion, gay marriage, etc., I just gotta laugh. If only everyone writing on these walls could be as open as you can, there would actually be logical debates rather than name calling.

@ Smokey'sMom

As a Christian I do not support a Christian woman taking more than one husband. The actual definition of adultery is "Woman that breaketh wedlock". Show me one man in the Bible accused of adultery with any of his wives...you can't because it doesn't exist. Biblical adultery is only found when a married woman sleeps with a man other than her husband.

Now...if you do not claim to be a Christian or part of any other religion or system that prohibits a woman from taking more than one husband go right ahead...I could care less, that is up to you.

Based on your response I would tend to think that your ignorance of the scriptures is what led to you condemn my views. Maybe you would be interested in reading something...

http://www.biblicalfamilies.org/doc/HistoryOfMarriage-1869.pdf

who knows...you may actually learn something.

Show me one man in the Bible accused of...blah blah blah

Like i give a CRAP what the goddam BuyBull says. It's a mythical cult book. Get over it!

Thanks, Bizz, I always appreciate someone that can walk without a crutch! ;)

Hey, Tired, the reason that you won't find any examples in your story book there is because in those days, women were considered property... not people. They might make a couple look important in the book, but it is only to boost a man, and that is the ONLY purpose. Once that purpose is done...

Of course, your glowing example of intolerance just makes me smile all over. You are the very symbol of a christian. You lack humility. You lack charity. You lack the will to want to improve others. Instead, you would rather should intolerance, lack of patience and a elitist view due to your belief over others that you may be able to sway to your side.

Good job! Got anymore good examples for us, huh?

Kinkomaster...do you have anger management issues...wow...if you knew me you might find that I am very tollerant of others. I am opinionated however, but consider that a good trait in anyone.

For those interested here is a quick and simple exegesis for you:

1 Corinthians 7:2 But because of the temptation to sexual immorality, each man should have his own wife and each woman her own husband.

Does 1 Corinthians 7:2 prohibit a man from having more than one wife?

Let us look at the situation addressed by Paul. The beginning of the verse states:

“because of the temptation to sexual immorality”

If we wish to interpret this verse as implying that having more than one wife would be considered “sexual immorality” then we would also be forced to conclude that Abraham, David, Gideon, Joash, and many other men that God called righteous are in fact not righteous. Indeed, the Apostle Paul stated that the “sexually immoral” would not inherit the kingdom.

1 Corinthians 6:9-10 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

Since I do not believe that the apostle Paul was attempting to contradict God:
1) Men with more than one wife are never addressed in the scriptures as being sexually immoral.
2) Paul was stating that one should be married rather than participating in sexually immoral acts and was not addressing polygyny whatsoever.

Quoting an unprovable cult book (one like the BuyBull, which is full of mythology and nonsense) doesn't make it true or factual.

I can quote the Lord of the Rings all day long. Still, it's a work of fiction. Just like your cult book.

Chill out.

Tired... anger management? I point a few things out and I have an anger management problem? Well, in that case, let me point out your intolerance...

"Now...if you do not claim to be a Christian or part of any other religion or system that prohibits a woman from taking more than one husband go right ahead...I could care less, that is up to you.

Based on your response I would tend to think that your ignorance of the scriptures is what led to you condemn my views. Maybe you would be interested in reading something..."

That is just a tad intolerant, but I can understand how you don't see it. Seeing how you take your story book so literal, let me point out something to you... just an observation.

"As a Christian I do not support a Christian woman taking more than one husband. The actual definition of adultery is "Woman that breaketh wedlock"."

Your quote really doesn't have anything to do with a woman taking more than 1 husband. She isn't breaking wedlock, she is entering it more than once. Realistically, according to your book, polygamy and adultery have nothing to do with each other... and you even went so far as to prove it all for us so well.

Thanks, by the way.

As for Pat - I'm sorry he said that - it's like handing a wagon of idiots a box of grenades.

Unfortunately he's been handing them out on a regular basis and the wagon train is his followers.

“because of the temptation to sexual immorality”

It would be wise to research history and the sexual practices of people during the time Paul was writing in order to get a better understanding of "sexual immorality". America is to prudish to even come close to their standards.

I have always thought this guy was a bit of a nut, but now he has opened his mouth and removed all doubt.

Imagine a supposedly religious man of faith breaking the sanctity of marriage. I guess Jesus should abandon a church when it gets sick too eh Pat?

Anyone that gives money to this buffoon is just throwing their money away. Support your local church if you feel the need to give. At least that won't create a millionaire buffoon.

What a jackass!

Even LOOKING at this guy kreeps me out. Lol.

Gee . . . while you're at it Pat, why don't you expand your thinking to give cover to all those indiscretions that conservative politicians engage in. You know . . . whoring, gay relationships, cheating, serial marriages, etc. After all, the key to being a good conservative politician is knowing how to sneak around those pesky hypocritical beliefs.

homesick yank::: I have heard that he suffers from AIT--Alzheimer's In Training.

Being fat is a kind of death, if your wife gets too fat then it`s ok to divorce her.

Kind of makes you wonder if Dede has Alzheimer's and Pat is setting himself up with some young sweet thing. Justification for things to come? Maybe!

Mr Shakespeare said something about lovers being "unconscience comedians". Wonder if he ever considered religionists?

Bill from Austin, now I have that song, "Sneakin' Around" from Best Little Whorehouse in Texas" running in my head!! Come to think of it Dom Deluise's character, Melvin P. whatever with his toupe', girdle, shoulder pads, shoe lifts and stuffed cod piece reminds me a lot of Pad Robberdumb!

Kind of makes you wonder if Dede has Alzheimer's and Pat is setting himself up with some young sweet thing. Justification for things to come? Maybe!

or perhaps one of his politician buddies has a wife with Alzheimer's and he is setting up justification for his buddy to get divorced. It will be interesting to watch the news over the next 6-12 months to see which politician gets divorced because his wife has Alzheimer's. The hypocrisy of conservatives knows no bounds.

In my post #2.7 I made an err. Mr Shakespeare called lovers "unconscious comedians". My blissful wife pointed it out to me. She reiterated her contention that I remain a most accomplished misspeller also. Sorry about that.

Wahahahahahahahaha!

Those pesky biblical rules. Thankfully, there are a lot of exceptions allowed. Except for the exceptions we don't allow. And we have Pat Robertson to inform us what is what. Without his edicts, we wouldn't know what the hell we have to do to get into heaven! Go Pat! You crazy, fu*kin' loon!

A very tough call.

Are you kidding? It's not a tough call at ALL! People take vows when they marry to take each other for better or for worse, in sickness or in health. And then we get this from the same corner that defends the sanctity of marriage between a man and a woman, but curl into a fetal position and froth at the mouth if two gay people want to get married! Sorry, but this is why I will not call myself a Christian and cannot respect most of the ones I meet. This is blatant, base hypocrisy, and it is disgusting. Robertson should be defrocked.

Wow flbikerchick. Please don't lump all of us in this together and do not look at him as the "face" of Christianity. When I took my vows 17 years ago, I meant every word of it. Most people stand in front of God and say "until death do us part" but never, EVER consider what that really means. What they HEAR is "until the lust is gone, until I find someone else who turns me on more, until I get tired of you, until we 'grow apart,' until we have a tough year, blah blah blah." It's honestly sickening.

We talk about the sanctity of marriage...but it's no real wonder why we have lost sight of exactly what this is.

Why? Someone asked him a question, he answered it. I don't care much for the answer (actually, closer to horrified about it) but he's entitled to his opinion.

First he is a long range relative, though I have never met him or intend to...

In today's America, when someone is diagnosed with terminal cancer or alzheimers. If the family has any assets, it is better to divorce...

Otherwise the Doctors/Hospital will end up with ALL of the assets...

and don't forget the oh so sacred marriage vows of "in sickness and in health".

Well, at least his wife knows she can divorce him right away!

It says that where in the Bible? Did you read it there or are you just listening to Christians who claim they invented marriage and own it?

I wouldn't wish it on anyone. I wish he'd see the error of his ways and repent. And while I'm being reasonable, I also wish I could have a giant flying marshmallow that carries me to the land of magical chocolate.

I wish some Christians would realize not only the stupidity of Robertson, but some of themselves.

I mean, it's their gullibility that leads some of them to fall for these f*king idiots.

LOL at Pragmatic!! Can I hitch a ride?

PAT
You know, Susan, theh uhthere are so
many great missionaries doing work,
out there in in inin parts of Africa,
and and uh we're trying to get Bibles
to people all over the world. And what
we need, is the help of everyone out
there so that we can continue these,
these projects. Now, listen to this,
Susan. Wha-one of our missionaries
in North Africa has made an amazing
discovery. U-u-uh a new planet, in the
in the galaxy Alpha Seti VI, that has
intelligent life on it.

SUSAN
Amazing.

PAT
Yeah. We're not sure what these hyper-intelligent
beings look like, but one thing is for
sure: they've never heard of Jesus Christ.


SUSAN
What can we do at the 600 Club to help
those poor aliens?

PAT
Well, what we need, Susan, is we need
money to build an interstallar cruiser.
Now, this space ship will be able to
travel through a wormhole and deliver
the message and guh-glory of Jesus Christ
to those godless aliens. S-send your
money now. Amen.

Can you imagine what Robertson and his wife look like doing the nasty in the shower?

Now "that's" a kind of a death.!!!

yuckk... could have done without that mental image...

Now I'm hoping I get Alzheimer's so I can forget it.

Goin' to heck for that one.

*Erase... Erase... Erase* So did not need to think about that today!! Ewww...

Well said. In hopes the attack mob doesn't collapse your comments so I voted.

I don't know how you see him as amoral, when he's always commenting on God's punishment of human immorality. Otherwise, what you said is unfortunately true.

MacDeezy, if one comments on how it is immoral to blow bubbles, does that make him moral? No, it makes him stupidly judgmental. The same can be applied to Pat Robertson.

Kyonin no justsu. The use of people's religious and superstitious beliefs to manipulate them. People like Pat Robertson use kyonin no jutsu all the time, even though they don't call it that. This is a good term to remember. Whenever someone talks to you about God, ask yourself if they are really just pulling a kyonin no jutsu.

I'm pretty sure there's somewhere in the Bible where Jesus said it's okay to divorce/abandon lepers.

How can anyone take this clown seriously? Especially after he's on the record agreeing with Jerry Falwell when he said, re: 911:

the pagans, and the abortionists, and the feminists, and the gays and the lesbians who are actively trying to make that an alternative lifestyle, the ACLU, People For the American Way -- all of them who have tried to secularize America -- I point the finger in their face and say: "You helped this happen."

I remember that fool blaming 911 on gays and witches. Funny... the last time I checked, the terrorists were all straight monotheists, not gay polytheists.

Yes, Andrew; he's a hypocritical toad.

This guy is little more than a raving lunatic.

You're right about people listening to this fool. Here, however, is an uncomfortable reality for you to chew on. If you spouse has a dibilating illness, and you have some assets but not enough to pay out of pocket for care, you can't get help for your spouse. If you are divorced, your incomes are separated, and medicaid will kick in after a period.

Marrage is a government scam that pretty much ruins everyones life at some point.

Keep marrage in the church, and don't tell the government about it.

@Andrew - do you understand any part of 'karma'?

BinNH- The Toads Local 926 is organizing a Croak In at your home in response to being compared to such a loathsome, worthless creature as Pat Robertson. I think you might want to give them an appology and a truck load of Mickey Finn flys (Mickey Flys?) and they MIGHT let you sleep!

if he gets alzheimers and his family leaves him he won't care.

"In sickness and in health", I wonder what this hypocrite said when HE "married his wife". My wish is that Mr Robertson quickly loses all the wealth and notoriety he has cheated gullible people out of for all these years, and has to visit "those pearly gates" very soon , ONLY TO FIND NO ROOM FOR HIM IN HEAVEN. This man is going to hell as sure as there is a devil.

This man is going to hell (mythical place) as sure as there is a devil (mythical creature).

Well, he doesn't have much to worry about...

"Play God"? I'm pretty sure he thinks he is God by now.

This Boob has a following of sorts, not good, very dangerous......

I liked your comment of calling him a "Boob". I am purposely going to call someone a boob today. Thanks for the laugh.

ah, yes...if they are divorced you can put them on medical and the govt can take care of the poor person..is this the pro life attitude?...typical right winger.....it's ok for me to use the govt but not you.

As someone said earlier what happened to "till death do us part"? Is it going to be ok for a spouse to leave if someone gets cancer? ALS? Heart trouble? The main reason this new again "born again Christians" are scary is because it's all about them. If a member of the family doesn't believe how they do, they disown them. They are all about themselves when it comes to health care, SSI or any govt assistance. they are against it and will vote against it. That is unless they need it. The 'born agains' the last 30 years have started the ruination of this country...it all started with reagan and 'born agains". No one heard about them till the late 60's. Many are ex drug or alcohol addicts shepherded by big money preachers...it is scary.

Playing God would be a change from him playing with his schmekel

Like I said earlier. They aren't born again. it just feels that way when their head inadvertantly pops out of their A$$. Then it gets all dark again when they put it back in as a group.

Side note that flag waver brought to mind. The vast majority of addiction programs are faith based which simply shifts the object of addiction from WHATEVER to Jeebus! Scares the hell out of me!

so, if someone wants to get divorced all they need to do is pay off some sleazebag doctor to say their spouse has Alzheimer's and bingo bango , they can get divorced!

we already have doctors giving fake diagnosis so that people can get medical pot, and fake diagnosis so people can get on the disability dole even though they aren't disabled.

nbforest....you must live in a forest somewhere....did you not know gov reagan gave california in the early 70's no fault divorce..and abortions before roe vs wade....that good Christian man.

Should he be tarred and feathered, or stoned, or something?

I'm usually not one who bashes a persons belief system or their religion, but I must proclaim that Pat Robertson is a COMPLETE FOOL. I've always seen him as self righteous, critical, judgmental, and a person who is severely lacking in humility. He's been such a FAKE for so long, that he's even convinced himself that he is holy. And what's sad, is that people actually believe his biblical rhetoric, and blindly follow him.

I took care of my dad for the last three years of his life. (he had Alzheimer's). He died just six days short of his 95th birthday. Usually, people who have this disease have it in their older years, although there are some who have significant signs as early as their 50's or even sooner. But in most cases, these are people who are into their 70's. If that be the case, these married couples (who have now been given permission to divorce) have been married for decades. For these folks, it isn't likely that divorce would be an option for them, nor is it likely that they would divorce their mate of many years to seek out a new life with a new person.

I would not judge anyone who was not able to care for their mate or family member, nor would I judge them if they choose to put their family member in an assisted living facility. These are personal family choices. No one should dictate to another, what their personal decisions should be.

People who have been stricken with Alzheimer's can live for many years. Alzheimers is a thief that robs one of their memories, their freedom, their dignity, and finally their life.

^^^^^ Oh, he's stoned alright Jeff, just not the kind you're thinking of...

It all depends on whose interpretation of YOUR "savior's" teachings you choose to believe.

It also depends on exactly who your "savior" is. Some people think it's Jesus Christ, some people don't. And exactly what did Jesus do to obtain savior status. In the old testament it claims that the coming of the messiah will end all war, disease and poverty. Ummm, I don't see that happened yet? In fact Christianity has CAUSED it's share of wars.

Christianity hasn't caused any wars at all.

Wars are to gain land, resources, power, etc.

Some that identify with Christ have caused those wars.

I know of no war created to spread Christianity.

WHAT? Do you live in Magic Bunny Land, or in the real Oregon where several people have been known to read books with words?

No war created to spread Christianity? Know anything about the gnarly history of Byzantium, the first Christian Empire? How about the Crusades, which left the Muslims in a really long bad mood? The endless religious wars that tore across Europe for hundreds of years? The untold millions dead due to Inquisitions and forced conversions? How about the Holocaust, JOregon?

Christians are historically brilliant -- and effective! -- at using their religion as an excuse for land grabs, genocide, and general mayhem.

more wars have been started, taxes collected and humans murdered in the name of religion than anything else..............sad

Ahhhh No.

Sorry Markle just not true.

But go ahead give your facts.

JOregon, I give you the following as the proof you need:

NOBODY expects the Spanish Inquisition! Our chief weapon is surprise...surprise and fear...fear and surprise.... Our two weapons are fear and surprise...and ruthless efficiency.... Our *three* weapons are fear, surprise, and ruthless efficiency...and an almost fanatical devotion to the Pope.... Our *four*...no... *Amongst* our weapons.... Amongst our weaponry...are such elements as fear, surprise.... I'll come in again.

JOregon,

Google can be your friend if you use it. Type in religious wars to start:

Crusades

French Wars of Religion

30 Years Wars

Taiping Rebellion

and these are just the european caused conflicts now for the others:

You may have forgot the recent wars in the ME and with Israel:

Yom Kippur, Iran/ Iraq conflict (muslim on muslim conflict).........I could go on for quite a long time but there has been some study on all recorded religious conflicts

In short, 809 million people have died in religious wars. That’s nearly a billion people.

Oftentimes, a retort is that secular ideals and Godless Communism have killed many more. It is true that Stalin, among others, slaughtered his own people by the millions during the industrialization of Soviet Russia. By comparison, 209 million have died in the name of Communism. Some 62 million died during World War II, civilian and military, on all sides. Conclusively, more people have died in the name of religion than in the name of Communism or Hitler, or the two combined times two.

All those wars were over LAND.

None of them were to spread a particular faith.

The Crusades were fought to regain control of Jerusalem a city, land.

French Wars of Religion were Christians fighting Christians, how exactly is that anything other than a power struggle or land grab?

With Israel, the Allies decided to give them back their traditional home. Problem was there were other folks living there.

The issue with the Middle East?

Are you kidding me? Have you never heard of OIL!!!!!

All you really have is wars fought for Land, Resources, Power, or Military Defense Positions.

Then a bunch of Anti-Religion folks decided to blame religion. They missed the mark.

Most everyone in the world has a religious belief, so you have religious people fighting wars for normal reasons.

They did not die in the name of religion they died for land, power, wealth, etc.

Scub

And now for something completely different.

Yes!

more wars have been started, taxes collected and humans murdered in the name of religion than anything else..............sad

Very true, despite the other mealy-mouthed crap being spewed here. Ya gotta love some people, who try to rewrite (and often christianize) history to try and make their cult look more sparkly.

JOregon, I can see you live in Michelle Bachmann's world and no amount of history or proven research like that "science talk" stuff will change your mind. I suppose you are trying to say the various religions have never done anything untoward. Good luck with your fantasy and the rewriting of know facts. The holocaust was all make believe also according to you I imagine.

I can

If you are trying to make me into a Bachmann clone you really have no clue as to what I have said.

Sometimes no matter how much you try to dummy down to someone they never do get it.

A religious war is designed to SPREAD YOUR RELIGION.

Wars to take land, or resources, or create military positions are not religious.

Most of the world is religious so the ignorant figure that must be the reason they war.

The Holocaust had several causes. Certainly antisemitism was one, as were economic causes, but the number one reason was Hitler was a paranoid nut case.

Must be wonderful to live with such a simplistic mind, too bad you fill it with hate.

WHAT?! Most of the world is religious?! Are you serious? You obviously don't have a clue what you're talking about. If you did, you would know that about half of China is NON-religious. Do you know what that means? They just don't give a s**t about your petty god. Then you have the Buddhists. Not really a religion... more of a philosophy founded by a monk... wait for it... named Buddha! What a coincidence, wouldn't you say?

The Crusades... were to take back the "holy land" from the muslims. Land grab, but with a religious purpose.

The Holocaust... really, ecomonic reasons? Did he get a few bucks for every jew, cripple or gypsy that he killed? He killed them because he thought they were "dirt" races. He blamed the jews for killing Jesus. Hitler wasn't paranoid until much later in the war. At the start, he was a megalomaniac.

JOregon, don't go throwing rocks when you are standing in a glass house.

Sometimes no matter how much you try to dummy down to someone they never do get it.~JOregon

Sometimes the people who think they are "smart" are actually delusional. I find it interesting you try to justify the religious wars as just trying to spread your religion, so in essence you are another Manifest Destiny proponent. You can try to explain away religion wars as land grabs and the burning of indignant people as nuisance killings of sub races with the currently used terms like "cleansings". You are probably a fan of Milosevic and his ethnic cleansings that only included Muslims as just another land grab in Serbia

Since wars have been fought throughout history and you keep bringing up ancient wars the HISTORY of China is a country steeped in religion.

Even today with all the efforts to stamp out religion by the communist government religion is very strong in China. The number of atheists in China is only around 10-15%. About 60% really don't care one way or another. That is today AFTER the communist Government tried to stamp it out.

Because they could not stamp it out China is open to the traditional religions. Even with closing their doors and actively trying to stomp out Christianity about 5% are Christian.

Is it really that hard to figure out? Ancient wars, you blame on religion, requires looking at the ancient population not the modern.

Just a land grab, the people that had the land were Muslim but if they had been any group opposed to letting the Pope's crew in they would have had the same war. They fought for the land. At least you finally admit it.

Yes the Holocaust was partly for economic reasons. Didn't you learn anything in school, try to pay attention this year.

There was no one single reason for the Holocaust. After WW1 Germany was in financial ruin. A great deal of the problem was the Treaty of Versailles which put a huge financial stress on the German people.

Think man! It had nothing to do with getting money for killing people, it had to do with blaming a group for the economic woes. The Jews were seen as being prosperous while the rest of Germany suffered in poverty.

Hitler was always paranoid,

One of the fears which he fed to the German people was; the Jews were going to bring Communism into Germany. Jewish Bolshevism.

There was no one reason for the Holocaust just as there often is no one reason for war.

Use the brain God gave you.

JOregon,

Your childish insults only leads me to believe you don't have the horsepower to handle yourself in a discussion. With that being said you might want to look into why WW1 happened, it was in a little place that is now Bosnia /Croatia/ Serbia, Macedonia the ultimate melting pot of religions you have the muslims, roman catholic, greek orthodox all vying for control since ancient times. But rather than take the time to explain how all of these religions were based on controling the masses to be able to gain whatever they cared for you should really take your own advice the information is out there.

Do your research, check your facts and don't drink the Kool-Aid

You need to check your facts.

In no way was religion a factor in WW1.

For simplicities sake.

Top 5 Causes of World War 1

Your childish insults

You are right Markle I really should be more patient with you. Sometimes I get frustrated with ignor...... ahh ...... stupi.......ahh..... people that don't really think things through.

Your WW1 assessment shows you to be what you are, a bigot.

guys guys guys... :)

you may as well talk to the wall. People like joregon don't give a goddam about facts. to him, facts are simply inconvenient. he and the throngs of BuyBull-Home-Schooled morons that dot the map only care about their cult's image. Facts are of no interest to them if those facts make their mythology look bad. The answer: simply rewrite history, simply rewrite facts to make their cult look pretty and sparkly.

again: you may as well talk to the wall.

Cheers!

So Bernie

You obviously have nothing of substance to add, typical of hate spreaders.

I try to be as straightforward as possible. And you still haven't given me an answer. Volume and effort, unfortunately, do not count. You say you're knowledgeable, probably even "studied" it for years. Do you happen to speak Aramaic? Latin? Greek? Classical Hebrew? Have you "studied" the Bible objectively using an accepted scientific method? What was your thesis and where is it published?

Or...have you attended Church every Sunday and "mmm mmm'd" and "hallelujah'd" your way through your study?

Study means something different to me. I believe you are using the term, as many lay people like to use "research".

Your beliefs are yours to have. If you want to be a Christian I respect your choice. But please don't believe that status gives you some sort of protection in open debate.

BTW, you don't have anyone "pegged"

Do you have any other source material from which you may draw? What I find really amusing about Bible thumpers is how you so easily and blindly gloss over and excuse the absolute sick, and violent verses in your stack-o-books. The god of your Bible seems to have multiple personalities and reverses and contradicts him/it/herself so often that it wouldn't be a far stretch to think of it as a petulant child who throws tantrums because the little ants it's "created" don't spend all of their waking hours adoring it. The so-called righteous have more in common with today's thugs, war-criminals and psychopaths than good gentle well adjusted human beings. This isn't a difficult concept...the victors write the history...

I'd be interested to hear what the people living in Jericho would have to say about those homeless desert marauders who stomped infants to death while raping their pre-teen daughters (and sons) after murdering their parents. Again, we'll never know..because genocide occurred. But maybe you will say something like "they had it coming". I suppose being born and breathing air was a sin in your god's site if the person respiring didn't happen to be an Israelite. I guess that particular god was theirs and theirs alone, so why would you want to worship something that essentially believes you to be subhuman and worthy of an unceremonious and brutal death. Certainly you aren't saying the Old and New Testament god/gods are different? Doesn't your book say something about Alpha and Omega, none before me...etc?

Is it any wonder the violence of the Old Testament/Torah continues today in Gaza? It's all there including your god's commandments to not just kill, but whom and how to do it. You got nothing on other religions.

But back to the topic of chosen people and bequeathed land etc. Have you had a gander at Deuteronomy 21:10-14? If that's an example of "god" giving something to someone, I'm going to have to again say your book is clearly written by something other than divine hands..

BTW..........you accusing another poster of having nothing of substance to add is hilarious

Just being honest, joregon. I've come to notice that you're one of the biggest, bold-faced liars on the Vine. And you are so taken by the BuyBull and its cultism that you've lost touch with reality in many respects. Like your comment, yesterday, that no proof exists to show that anything is over 5000 years old. That's just WHACKADOO. You are the epitomal Religious Nutter!

I'll deal with your post first Bernie,

Where have I lied?

I don't believe I have, though I would guess from your hate filled posts anything I say would be a lie because I am a Christian.

I did not say nothing was older than 5,000 years, though I can see why you might have been confused. I wasn't very clear.

We have a very complete written history that goes back about 5,000 years. That is the main reason the 6,000 yr old earth won't hold up. The flood becomes a huge problem.

Anything before our written history is dated by theories, not facts.

The way the theories are developed often depend on looking at objects we know the date of and taking a reading (eg. carbon 14).

By comparing various readings a formula is established to calibrate the dates.

The formula is dependent on assuming everything before the 5,000 year cutoff date was the same as it is today.

We really don't know if there was additional cosmic radiation, or any other possible influence to alter the older readings.

Since the bible and much geological evidence speaks about a flood there is a huge possibility the pressures attached to that event altered the environment.

Also the Bible says that the Earth was divided in the time of Peleg. Geologists believe the earth certainly was divided, they call it continental drift. The bible seems to indicate it was a violent ripping, today they have slowed to the drifting mode. Again such an event certainly could have caused massive environmental changes.

What I had hoped to say was there is no proof of the age of anything over 5,000 years old because anything that old is dated by using theories.

Does that help?

Markle

And you still haven't given me an answer.

I've gone back and reread, what was your question? Honestly I must have missed it because I don't know what you want here.

I have used examples and facts. You are the one using unsubstantiated accusations, such as your WW1 BS.

You see people, that happen to follow a faith, in a war and assume it is because of their faith. You haven't presented anything to prove that.

The basis of Christianity is to spread the word about God. The word “gospel” means “good news”.

Mark 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

Wars about land or power are not done for religion, they are political decisions. Some people such as the Pope might try to spin it as religious but the reason is politics, power, or wealth.

You make accusations based on a flawed premise.

At least two things are necessary when studying the bible for truth.

1. Belief in God.

Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

2. The Bible.

Romans 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

With a belief in God, God promises to give you understanding. God will guide you to truth.

Truth isn't found in a church or through the teachings of some pastor. I certainly don't know it all. Still much can be learned from others.

It is not discovered through following scientific methods, though there is a methodology that the bible lays out.

1 Corinthians 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

The bible is the only concrete thing I know of that is spiritual. By comparing scripture with scripture we can come to truth.

I speak English, that's it. I have learned a few words as I study but I wouldn't trust my knowledge. By using a concordance a person can compare how a word is to be used. I don't trust a concordance for a definition, men write them, but by looking where a word is used and searching for the answer in the bible truth can be found.

For instance many bibles leave out this verse of the bible assuming it was added.

Matthew 17:21 Howbeit this kind goeth not out but by prayer and fasting.

The reasoning was; what does going without food have to do with casting out a demon.

When searching for instances where fasting is used a curious passage pops up.

Isaiah 58:5 Is it such a fast that I have chosen? a day for a man to afflict his soul? is it to bow down his head as a bulrush, and to spread sackcloth and ashes under him? wilt thou call this a fast, and an acceptable day to the LORD?

Isaiah 58:6 Is not this the fast that I have chosen? to loose the bands of wickedness, to undo the heavy burdens, and to let the oppressed go free, and that ye break every yoke?

To loose the bands of wickedness, to undo the heavy burdens, the oppressed go free, we are yoked to sin and eternal death. The gospel conquers sin. To fast is to bring the gospel.

When we understand this is parabolic language then we can see that this demon was cast out by the power of the gospel.

Try to find a church that preaches that today. Most can't because they have gone with those bibles that have left this verse out.

I'm not going to spend a lot of time trying to explain the truth behind Christianity to you. You will never understand as long as you reject God.

I don't gloss over anything in the bible but you don't understand because your heart is stone.

There is no place in the bible that says God loves every person. Billy Graham might say that, the bible does not. The bible says the opposite.

Psalms 5:5 The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.

Psalms 5:6 Thou shalt destroy them that speak leasing: the LORD will abhor the bloody and deceitful man.

You are appalled God would destroy people but the answer is right there, in Leviticus.

Leviticus 20:23 And ye shall not walk in the manners of the nation, which I cast out before you: for they committed all these things, and therefore I abhorred them.

God hates sinners, the only way God can love you is if you can wipe sin off your record. The only way you can do that is by finding someone to make the necessary payment for your debt. Once the payment is made God no longer sees your sin.

Sin demands payment, a wage. The payment that is required is eternal death.

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

ROTFLMMFAO!!!

This just gets better and better...

The Flintstones - A Documentary

ROFL!!

Cherry picking Christians are nothing new, if you believe all those passages then you should also accept slavery as a God ordained institution, as your good book tells you how to be a good slave and a good slave owner.

Matthew 24:45

Who then is the faithful and wise slave, whom the master has put in charge of his household, to give the other slaves their food at the proper time? Blessed is that slave whom the master finds at work when he comes.

I can not understand listening to a book filled with so many contradictions and I'll just throw out one of the oh soooo many examples.

Lets take Romans 13:1-2

Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except by God’s appointment, and the authorities that exist have been instituted by God. So the person who resists such authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will incur judgment.

Now we can compare that quote to your passage about Leviticus 20:23 or even to Acts 5:29 with Paul saying We must obey God rather then people. Oh and quick side note, the passage in Romans means that if anyone stood up to Hitler then they were in the wrong, because Hitler was chosen by God to lead Germany, so I don't know about you but I don't think this is the greatest book to take advice from.

Personally I like what our founding father Thomas Jefferson had to say about religion:

Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.

-Thomas Jefferson, Notes on Virginia, 1782

In Matthew the servant is the Christian. We are to serve God's divine church.

Matthew 24:45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?

It isn't the Christian that cherry picks you have taken the passage out of context.

There is no contradiction.

In Romans he is talking to Christians living under the authority of government.

In Leviticus God is talking to Jews taking the land from corrupt nations.

When the Jews killed and destroyed the people it was a picture of Judgment day. This is what will happen upon the return of Christ. It shouldn't be compared to Romans it is closer to your previous chapter, Matthew 24.

Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Matthew does tell us certain signs should appear shortly before Christ returns. That is where Pat Robertson fits in.

Matthew 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

The signs and wonders movement, which Pat is very much a part of, really took off in the 20th century.

Acts 5:29 Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.

And we should. If the government commanded me to do something that was against God I would obey God. When there is no such conflict I am to obey the law of the land.

For instance if the Government told me to denounce Christ and worship Baal I would reject that command. Same holds true with Hitler.

It isn't the greatest book for you because you can't understand it.

Acts 28:26 Saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive:
Acts 28:27 For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Oh my! joregon has another mealy-mouthed, twist-the-scripture-to-suit-the-argument answer.

I have to get a chair and sit down, due to the shock! I've never seen a two-faced christian do THAT before.

Ahh Bernie, as usual you have nothing of substance to say. At least it is obvious to everyone.

Oh the attempt at insults. I've been married and divorced from the same woman twice, you're an amateur.

My post said nothing about worshiping Hitler, just that the bible states that God gives authority to leaders and that you should respect and accept the leadership of your country because leaders have been appointed by God, again I quote from your holy book, "Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except by God’s appointment, and the authorities that exist have been instituted by God. So the person who resists such authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will incur judgment."

So color me stupid, which granted isn't very difficult, but I don't get the contradiction between Romans.....follow the government for they are given power by me (paraphrased) versus Acts, which by the way I referenced in my post, which states listen to God and ignore man.....I don't get it, which one should a good Christian do, because this whole idea that it's somehow different because of occupied lands doesn't make a lot of sense to me, after all 'Israel' at the time of the new testament was an occupied country/land/region?

Now as for my slavery comment, are you really trying to say that all the references....the many, many, many, alllll soooo many references to slavery in the bible are all about servants to God (aka the everyday Christian)? Please believe that I'm not trying to be a smarta$$, I am curious to understand how some understand the texts within this book.

that one's a real hoot, huh scuba?

LOL!

My post said nothing about worshiping Hitler

Sorry I wasn't very clear.

My, "same holds true with Hitler", remark was to mean that if Hitler demanded I do something that would violate God's law I would have to choose God.

As long as the Governing authorities don't ask me to do something against God I am to follow them.

For instance if a woman was told by the government that she had to have an abortion because she had too many children she should disobey the government.

If the Government told me I had to walk backwards to work on Fridays I would have to follow the government, God doesn't forbid such a thing.

In Acts Peter was obeying Gods command to go into all the world and preach the gospel. Men wanted them to stop. Those men were not the government, they were the Jewish leaders. Israel was under Roman law.

In Romans 13 Paul is pointing out that people govern because God puts them in that position. That doesn't mean they have the authority to overrule God. We are still to obey God above men but when there is no crossover we are to follow the government.

God often puts those in power to serve his needs.

For instance he raised Pharaoh to serve his needs.

Same with the government in Christ's time.

I'm not sure what you mean by the occupied lands question. My turn to be colored stupid.

My point with the Jews is they were taking lands they did not occupy. It was a land grab. God chose those lands because the people that lived in them were wicked.

That is also a picture of Judgment Day. All through the bible God uses historical events to paint pictures of the gospel. It is one reason I believe the bible to be written by God. The pictures are amazing and consistent all throughout the bible.

I realize this is a bit rambling, past my bed time so I'm not going to clean it up. Sorry if it confuses.

I'm sorry, but I don't understand how the word consistent can be used in conjunction with the bible, as time and time again the book contradicts it's self.

You have Gen 4:16 which talks about Cain leaving the presences of God to go live in the land of Nod, but that confuses me because I thought God was everywhere, at least according to Je 23:23 which says that no one can hide from him. Or how about Ex 23:7 do not kill the innocent, but hey if they're the kids of Jericho well it sucks to be them because they all got slaughtered, because they had the ill fortunate of having wicked parents, though wait according to Dt 24:16 children are not held accountable for sins of their father, though that doesn't make any sense since according to Ex 20:5 children can be held responsible to the third and fourth generation for the transgressions of their father.

Also, can I ask again if it is your belief that every reference to slavery was a metaphor, because I think the bible was being literal, but if you could point out how you came to your conclusion I would be very interested.

I really do have a deep curiosity of religion and it is a recurring theme throughout mankind's history, but the strong Christian belief that only salvation can come from accepting Jesus is a little strange to me, after all what if you never knew about Jesus, what if you lived a thousand years ago, never having seen a white person let alone a bible, what of the little cannibals in New Guinea, worshiping their many Gods and eating their enemies and sometimes a dead relative, does that person get refused entry to heaven?

Again, I am truly interested to see how you see the bible and how you explain and understand it's text.

I'm sorry, but I don't understand how the word consistent can be used in conjunction with the bible, as time and time again the book contradicts it's self.

I can't guarantee that I can answer all your contradictions, certainly not in the manner you would like. Usually when I have been confronted by a so called contradiction more study often reveals the solution.

I have been stumped by something, then when reading something somewhere else the solution to my question becomes apparent.

Cain sinned. Sin separates us from God. Eden represents God. In a posting little later in these discussions I point out that water (representing the gospel) flows out of Eden to irrigate Eden. You don't even have to be a farmer to see the problem with that. When we understand Water = the Gospel, then we can see that as the gospel goes out into the world it brings people to Eden = God.

And yes, you can't hide from God. You sin – He knows.

When entire cities were destroyed, including children, it is a picture of the judgment. All that aren't saved will be destroyed. Various groups of people represent the wicked of the world. The clearest example of this is Egypt.

Much like the water study, Egypt also has significant keys to understanding. I won't get into them all just two.

Revelation 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

Obviously Christ wasn't crucified in Egypt.

Genesis 46:34 That ye shall say, Thy servants’ trade hath been about cattle from our youth even until now, both we, and also our fathers: that ye may dwell in the land of Goshen; for every shepherd is an abomination unto the Egyptians.

There was no reason for the Egyptians to hate Shepherds they also owned flocks.

These kinds of pictures are not only historical but they also hold a Spiritual lesson.

While every individual in Jericho was destroyed it doesn't mean everyone was unsaved. Jericho is only a picture of the damned. A picture every unsaved person needs to grasp – God doesn't kid around.

To be killed in this world is really insignificant – we all die. What is significant is where you spend eternity. Anyone worthy of eternal life would have been with God as soon as they died at Jericho.

Children aren't innocent, they need a savior too.

Psalms 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

I had 4 children, I assure you they sin as babies. One example; anger is a sin.

Deuteronomy 24:16 The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.

That is a matter of law. You pay for your own sin.

Exodus 20:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

You ever heard the term, “the apple doesn't fall far from the tree”?

Sin begets sin. I noticed my son took my sins and added his mothers to it. Yikes. Fortunately he probably wasn't as extreme in those sins. Children learn from their parents.

Slavery has always existed, the bible established a method of dealing with it. It is historical and it has a Spiritual meaning also – just like Water or Egypt.

Again, what happens to you in this world is insignificant. How you deal with your life is very significant. We are on this planet for a fraction of a blink of an eye. Eternity never ends.

the strong Christian belief that only salvation can come from accepting Jesus is a little strange to me

And it should be. Salvation comes from God accepting you. Not everyone will be saved, nor were they intended to be. God will save everyone he intends to save. The idea you can guarantee your salvation by doing something is the popular belief today, it is a works gospel.

Salvation is entirely by God's Grace. He chooses who will hear and who will be saved the rest will be eternally dead.

In all honesty the following is an idea I am a bit on the fence about. The words translated Hell are also translated Grave. I am beginning to believe that when the unsaved dies they go to the grave. They cease to exist. Those that become saved live for ever it is a wonderful blessing. They aren't blessed because they are better or smarter or living in the right place. They are blessed because God had mercy on them.

No one can know if they are one of God's but those that refuse to bend the knee can know they are not.

I can't guarantee salvation by any method, I can only say all those that do become saved approach God as the publican did.

Luke 18:13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.

Well I can honestly say I still don't understand things like being pro life when God commanded the Israelites to kill pregnant women in Jericho, but I do respect that you have taken the time to discuss our differences.

Oh as for the idea that Hell might be better translated into grave, i.e. eternal death, I'm pretty sure that is what the Jews and Jehovah Witnesses believe (not that I'm endorsing any religion), so there is certainly a goodly amount of research in that area.

Best of luck on your path!

I can understand your reasoning.

God was passing judgment. Man is simply killing.

There is a difference between the two.

I have a problem with those that say no death penalty, then say abort the unborn child.

I guess we both see problems.

I hope your search brings you to truth.

I can't guarantee that I can answer all your contradictions

But he can sure twist the bejeebus out of as many scriptures as it takes to justify the ridiculous crap in that goddam cult book, and make it more palatable for himself...

Yeah...like that's the only place in the world that it happens. LOL...

I have a problem with those that say no death penalty, then say abort the unborn child.

And yet, a lot of people see an embryo as inconsequential as a sperm cell that they whack into a towel... Funny how so many christians have no problem freezing embryos for later use, using them as their property...then when the abortion debate comes up, suddenly they claim they are little humans with consciousness and a soul, and the christian cultists set their hair on fire and start running around screeching and shrieking. RIGHT! Yet, they have no problem freezing those little humans with souls for months or years at a time! Because, the embryo can be thawed out, and used later -- just like sperm.

You want to see the difference between a conscious human being -- and a embryo? Try putting a child (or an adult, your choice) into a deep freeze -- and hey, just do it for a few weeks. See what happens.

I would agree with you some people CLAIMING Christ will do all sorts of things.

Not sure if the exact same PERSON that freezes an embryo is anti abortion, not all Christians are.

Embryos are frozen only between 24 hours after fertilization up to 6 days (144 hours) after fertilization.

There is actually a significant difference when looking at how old the fetus can be when we will abort.

*The fifth week of pregnancy, or the third week after conception, marks the beginning of the embryonic period. This is when the baby's brain, spinal cord, heart and other organs begin to form.

*Just four weeks after conception, the neural tube along your baby's back is closing and your baby's heart is pumping blood.

*Seven weeks into your pregnancy, or five weeks after conception, your baby's brain and face are rapidly developing.

*Eight weeks into your pregnancy, or six weeks after conception, your baby's arms and legs are growing longer, and fingers have begun to form. The shell-shaped parts of your baby's ears also are forming, and your baby's eyes and nipples are visible. The upper lip and nose have formed. The trunk of your baby's body is beginning to straighten.

Your baby may begin to move this week, but you won't be able to feel it yet.

*At the beginning of the 11th week of pregnancy, or the ninth week after conception, your baby's head still makes up about half of its length. But your baby's body is about to catch up, growing rapidly in the coming weeks.

Your baby is now officially described as a fetus. This week your baby's eyes are widely separated, the eyelids fused and the ears low set. Red blood cells are beginning to form in your baby's liver.

*Twelve weeks into your pregnancy, or 10 weeks after conception, your baby is developing fingernails. Your baby's face now has a human profile.

Mayo Clinic

That's the first trimester.

We will abort up to the 20th week where it would have a 50% chance of survival if it was born.

Most common excuses:

Having a baby would dramatically change my life 74%

Can’t afford a baby now 73%

Don’t want to be a single mother or having relationship problems 48%

Health reasons of the mother 12%, of the baby 13%. There maybe some cross over of the 2 as in some cases both are endangered.

Abortion because of a nonconsensual relationship accounts for about 1% of all abortions. Incest less than .5%.

LOL. Love your stats, since the vast majority of clinics do not ask such questions. It's agasint so many laws - federal, state and local - to even ask these kinds of questions, that this is just laughable. Besides, it's none of anyone's business why a woman wants to have an abortion, or to have any other legal medical procedure.

The biggest thing DOCTORED here is your posts! LOL!!

Embryos are frozen only between 24 hours after fertilization up to 6 days (144 hours) after fertilization.

So what. What difference does THAT make, to the whack-jobs who claim that "the moment of conception is where we draw the line" -- 24 hours, and so on, is AFTER that line! Some pregnancies have been reported from embryos that were frozen for OVER 15 YEARS. What happens to the conscience and soul while they are being frozen all this time? HMMMMM?????

You should know by now if I make a statement I can back it up - Unlike you.

So what. What difference does THAT make...blah, blah, blah

Makes a huge difference.

At that stage of life a human can survive freezing, any later and it won't.

That is why your previous statement...

Try putting a child (or an adult, your choice) into a deep freeze

...is nothing but worthless, pointless, drivel.

ROFL. You haev NEVER backed up a statement you've made here! You've fooled yourself into thinking you have, but time after time after time, you toss up a bunch of spurious nonsense the YOU and ONLY YOU have decided is "back up" or substantial.

And, all it does it make the rest of us laugh.

jesus h nipple on a biscuit. You are nothing but a self-delusional JOKE!

You're like the guy with a big glop of Seagull Turd right smack in the center of your head. Everyone around you is laughing at you, and you are in such denial, you exclaim "what's so funny! there's nothing there..." and strut away, all self-absorbed and self-important. also, probably because you've convinced yourself that you know the god-that-created-the-universe. Self-importance of a whole new degree!

It's no wonder that you're convinced that the mindless screed you post here day after day has some relevence...even though the rest laugh it off for the juvenile idiocy that it really represents.

I have used facts, and expert information.

This last topic I used a quality study, done completely ethically.

You got NOTHIN'. So your worthless rant.

One thing I have not done is use the bible to prove evolution is false, or the bible to claim abortion is wrong. I have used scientifically solid information.

You on the other hand have been so brilliant as to repeatedly say:

jesus h nipple on a biscuit.

What does that mean anyway? How does it contribute to any conversation?

ROTFLMMFAO!!!, LMFAO,

Beside your need to talk about your weight-loss system, I get it. Your parents bought you a phone and you like to use your texting skills. That is not quality information. Just the ramblings of a middle-school age person.

I don't care if anyone laughs at the Factual information I bring up. If they don't take it seriously it is their loss.

I think if you knew the others that see your posts you would see a lot of people that are embarrassed for you.

Sort of like the colleague or friend that drinks too much and pees in the punch bowl.

LMFAO!!

Again with your method to reduce your fat ass.

No substance.

Actually, he represents modern Christianity 100%. He just doesn't represent a certain carpenter's son from Nazareth.

He does NOT represent modern Christianity!!!

I don't know what type of Christian you are around.

He does NOT represent modern Christianity!!!

Unfortunately he kind of does represent it in the USA when most Christians identify themselves as members of the "Christian Right" - a group based upon Denialism, dominionism, revisionism, anti-intellectual, anti-science, anti-gay, mysogynism

The rational Christian, the 'real' Christian... they are the minority. The Robertsons, the Bachmanns, the Rushdoonys.... they are mouthpieces of this reduxed "Moral Majority"

You can tell that Jesus-like Christians are only a tiny minority of the faith when you look at what Christianity as a whole does in the name of "righteousness". It tolerates virulent hatred against homosexuals (including empathizing with murderers who kill gays). It demonizes rape victims who choose to have an abortion rather than bear a rapists's child. It blames the victims of natural disasters when they happen to follow a different faith (like Haiti when they had a bad earthquake). They make absurd claims that cannot be backed up by any form of logic (like "God is shaking-mad at gays, so he shook the ground in DC last month).

most Christians identify themselves as members of the "Christian Right"

I'm not sure this is a fair characterization. I think it's a minority of right-wing social conservaties who identify themselves loudly as "Christians."

I think most true Christians quietly go about their business, worshiping and honoring their God according to their personal beliefs. It's the evangelicals who feel obligated to point out the error of everyone elses ways.

For the record I'm an agnostic.

"You can tell that Jesus-like Christians are only a tiny minority of the faith when you look at what Christianity as a whole does in the name of "righteousness". It tolerates virulent hatred against homosexuals (including empathizing with murderers who kill gays). It demonizes rape victims who choose to have an abortion rather than bear a rapists's child. It blames the victims of natural disasters when they happen to follow a different faith (like Haiti when they had a bad earthquake). They make absurd claims that cannot be backed up by any form of logic (like "God is shaking-mad at gays, so he shook the ground in DC last month)."

I am a right wing Christian and most do not do this things that you have listed above. As with most other groups, it is only a very small number of "Loud" individuals that make the rest look bad.

For example, I believe that abortion is murder, but I do not demonize a rape victim who has one. For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God, and her sin is no worse than mine. We do provide options for the rape victim who chooses life for the innocent child.

However, just because I am a Christian, that does not mean that I am not also an American, who has every right as an American to influence the government (we the people) to my way of thinking, by means of peaceful demonstrations, elections of officials and legal proceedings. That does not equate with hatred, it equates with political process.

To GetRealLiberal Media.

Ever hear of separation of Church and State? You have no right to change our form of government to your way of thinking. It was formed to exactly protect us from idiots like you....You give all conservatives a bad name. Apparently many deserve it.

Read carefully the part that says" Shall make no law"

Navy,

Perhaps you should finish the quote. "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

Congress can not establish an official religion, but it also can not prohibit the "free exercise" of religion. That includes the members of that religion participating and shaping the government.

For example, I believe that abortion is murder, but I do not demonize a rape victim who has one. For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God, and her sin is no worse than mine. We do provide options for the rape victim who chooses life for the innocent child.

So you believe that rape victims are sinners? And you are trying to distance yourself from typical right wing Christianity brainwashing mentality? No, sorry, you are one of them. You are a full time, permanent member!

Congress can not establish an official religion, but it also can not prohibit the "free exercise" of religion. That includes the members of that religion participating and shaping the government

Sure, but in no way should they advocate creating religiously based laws. Because, obviously, such laws would be unconstitutional. Unconstitutional laws are bad, right? Or no? Remember, an instrinsic property of Free Religion is freedom from religion, as \illustrated by Thomas Jefferson and other framers of the document in question. You nor I can have free religion if it is not free from the religion of others.

You wouldn't have freedom of religion if you had to follow laws based on Islamic principles, now, would you?

Of course, they could be honest and admit that they reject the 1st Amendment - then they could indeed legitimately push for their version of Sharia without having to lie and mask their intentions.

But what can you expect? Instead they try to reinterpret a pretty clear meaning and claim that "Freedom of Religion" only applies to Christianity, and that Article VI is misunderstood - (a laughable/scary belief put forth by the Reconstructionist leaders of the Christian Right)

Leee,

One of two things have occurred:

1) Either you are intentionally attempting to twist my words to say something that wasn't said in an attempt to goad me into an argument or mislead others.

or

2) My sentence structure confused you and you truly didn't understand the meaning of the statement.

If the first is true, please understand that I will not be goaded into an argument and any reasonable person will see through your attempts.

If instead, the second is true, allow me to explain my position so that you might be able to understand. I do not believe that a person is a sinner because they were raped. My comment doesn't even come close to implying that. I do believe that abortion is murder and therefore anyone who has had one, has murdered an innocent life and therefore committed the sin of murder.

I go on to say that everyone has sinned, including myself and that no one sin is greater than another. (For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God.)

I am a Conservative Christian. I am not trying to distance myself from that. I am an eternal member. What I am doing is standing up against a very public statement from a very public figuring who is making statements that I believe go against God's teachings.

Shuklack,

What religiously based laws are you referring to?

What religiously based laws are you referring to?

Any law in which the motivator is based upon religious doctrine - for instance, gay marriage or creationism in the science curriculum. A more common, yet 'unimportant' religious law would be Sunday sales for alcohol. The arguments for such litigation are incongruent with any sort of objective, secular reasoning. Their relevance, sans religion, would be zero - therefore they are religious laws.

@GetRealLiberalMedia

For example, I believe that abortion is murder, but I do not demonize a rape victim who has one. For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God, *and her sin is no worse than mine.*

So I guess you are saying that the rape victim is sinning for getting an abortion and not for getting raped, which is almost as bad.

And here lies the problem. The rape debate will NEVER be solved, at least when you are discussing morals and ethics. Why? Because both sides of the rape issue are right, and both are wrong. You are dealing with two separate issues here. You are dealing with the life and death of an unborn child and you are also dealing with a woman's rights, feelings and physical and mental well being.

I agree that abortion is in fact killing an unborn child. That's a very sad tragedy and should be avoided at all costs. But I also agree that a woman's body, soul and mind are HERS to decide what to do with. I cannot imagine what it must feel like to be violated in such a violent manner. It's disgusting, it's embarrassing and probably one of the worst things a woman could go through. And I can understand a woman not wanted to have the rapists seed/fetus in their body for another second. Even though that child is innocent and pure, carrying a rapists baby inside you is, for most women, just too much to bear. They already have feelings of guilt about being raped, they do not need additional guilt thrown at them for wanting to get on with their lives and not be reminded of the rape for months and months after it happened.

The rapist is the one that should and will be found guilty, both by law and in the eyes of God. And the rapist should feel guilty about forcing his seed into a woman by violence and brutality. And it is the rapist who has to deal with any sin related to what becomes of his seed, not the woman/victim.

both by law and in the eyes of God.

That's nice -- except for the fact that nobody, NOBODY, has ever provided one shred of proof that their cult god exists, or ANY cult god for that matter.

Cheers!

Nor any PROOF of evolution nor anything else more than 5,000 years old.

@ JOregon. Bwahahahahahahaa..... Geez.. Get a clue already.

Leee,

Yes, I am saying the sin is for murdering the unborn child.

I share your concern for the woman who is raped. That is an abhorrent act and a terrible physical and emotional strain on her. There is no denying that. That is why it is important that we provide all support possible for her, whether or not she becomes pregnant from the horrific act.

What I am saying is that one sin does not permit another. If someone steals my car, that does not afford me he opportunity to steal someone else's.

If someone murders my son, that does not mean that I can murder theirs.

Again, having said all that, I feel compelled to reiterate that no one sin is any greater than any other. The sin of murder is no worse than when I know that I should do something that is right, and I fail to do it. All of these sins separate us from the Father.

Thank you for the opportunity to discuss this with you.

"Any law in which the motivator is based upon religious doctrine - for instance, gay marriage or creationism in the science curriculum. A more common, yet 'unimportant' religious law would be Sunday sales for alcohol. The arguments for such litigation are incongruent with any sort of objective, secular reasoning. Their relevance, sans religion, would be zero - therefore they are religious laws." - Shuklack

Shuklack,

I agree with you to a certain extent. Sunday "blue laws" are silly.

Creationism in science curriculum is not a "law" (Not even in Texas). I do believe that it should be presented as a theory that many believe, because in fact it is a theory that many believe.

Gay marriage is an issue that is much larger than a religious issue. There are many that not religious that oppose gay marriage. They find it and homosexuality morally reprehensible. Granted, the majority of "religious" people probably oppose it, but that is not all.

But I find it questionable to suggest that any law that is based on religious doctrine is wrong. For example, the doctrine that I adhear to states "thou shalt not kill" yet obviously it is not wrong to have a law against murder.

You would think the secular world would have learned that two wrongs don't make a right by now. ;)

joregon: or any PROOF of evolution nor anything else more than 5,000 years old.

Well, that was about the most stupid thing posted on the Vine so far. Ever.

GRLM: What I am saying is that one sin does not permit another...

What I am saying is this is a secular country, and nobody, NOBODY here is required to follow your goddam BuyBull or your silly cult!

You can talk about SIN SIN SIN until you are blue in the face, but there isn't a SINGLE PERSON IN THE UNITED STATES that is required to follow your cult or your cult's BuyBull. This is a secular nation, ruled by a constitution, not ruled by a cult book!

Until you mindless, religious nutters GET THAT FACT THROUGH YOUR HEADS, you will be crying into your pillows until the day you die.

Just a fact bern

There is NO PROOF of evolution whatsoever.

Just a con job.

don't be a bothering with that science talk stuff just be a askin JOregon bout the bible and he can teach ya with both of his brain cells

Wow. Totally WHACKDOO, that one. He thinks evolution is ethereal, and nothing is over 5,000 years old.

Wow. A completely new definition of RELIGIOUS NUTTER.

Folks, we have a new Curator for the Creation Museum! LMFAO!!

The Flintstones -- A Documentary

There is NO PROOF of evolution whatsoever.

There is no proof of any god or big bang theory either.There is much more proof of evolution than god.

They are all belief systems.

We all follow a belief system.

There really is no more proof of evolution.

Evolution is a belief system based on theories derived from evidence.

Much of that exact same evidence points to a God rather than evolution.

Take a look at the camera eye.

The entire basis for the theory of evolution is the observation that some creatures share common traits, therefore they must have evolved from a common ancestor. It is the very cornerstone of evolution. That theory is proven false.

The camera eye is shared between the Octopus, Box Jellyfish, and the Human (among many others).

None of these creatures share a common ancestor, though you could try to make an argument for the Octopus and the Box Jellyfish.

Further proof that the camera eye did not come from a common ancestor is in how the eye develops from conception to the birth of the creature. In the Octopus it forms in the epidermal layer and works toward the nervous system. In man it works from the nervous system out.

Since the very CORNERSTONE of evolution was based on the common traits shared by similar creatures this flew in the face of the theory. Science needed to deal with this to keep the belief system alive so they created "convergent evolution".

Evolution theory #1: Creatures share similar traits when they have a common ancestor.

Evolution theory #1: Creatures share similar traits when they don't have a common ancestor.

Talk about covering your bases.

It actually speaks more of a creator to use the same part in more than one species.

Bwahahahaahahahahhahaahahahahahahaah!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You're funny JO.

Maybe this will help you picture it.

Camera Eye

Remember absolutely no common ancestor. Totally different development routes in the embryo.

I think God made them. You don't.

Bwahahahaahahahahhahaahahahahahahaah!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You're funny JO.

Isn't that the truth!! jesus h nipple. it just doesn't get any better than this. anymore, I feel like getting a little box of popcorn before i log on, as I start seeing the comedy unfold... pretty funny, like watching a bear cub trying to find its pecker for the first time...

Well, even after the calamity called Dumbya...

...they're already lining up to put another BuyBull-thumping, moronic Texas Governor into the White House.

Nothing but a bunch of goddam idiots.

In modern Christianity, the uninsured poor are supposed to quickly and quietly get on with the business of dying so as to not inconvenience their "betters".

What are you talking about? Do you even know anything about being a Christian?

The uninsured poor are the people "Christians" help take care of. YOUR view of things is distorted by your own experience with some racist bigot "Christian". get to know REAL Christians who follow Christ and love him.

Let's not forget that Rick Warren (pastor and multi-millionaire) said that the main problem with America is that people living in poverty aren't being taxed highly enough.

Ash,

I would love to, however the crazy ones are too loud to hear over. For example, the recent debates (put on by the Christian right) where people cheered executions and shouted to let 30 year olds in comas die rather then support health care.

It's you and the good Christians that need to stand up to these people and take them in hand. They already ignore us "libbies" or write us off as crazies and socialists out to destroy America. Take back your message from the fringe that's distorting it and then we will be able to get to know real Christians.

It's so much easier to SAY you are a christian than to live a christian lifestyle. Many of the so-called "christians" I know pick and choose which parts of their religion's scriptures (teachings, dogma, whatever) to believe. Many are racists and/or sexists. Still, the christian bible surely has some valuable lessons to teach mankind, as do Mein Kampf and The Communist Manifesto. Perhaps it's a cautionary tale.

"I like your Christ, I do not think I like your Christians."

- Ghandi

Nuff said.

Thanks Sarah, I never heard that quote before. That pretty much sums it up, doesn't it? I think I'll get a bumper sticker made. LOL!

I will buy one if you do, Lee.

You people have it all wrong. Robertson isn't just a hypocrite he wrote

wrote the study course, called Hypocrisy 101.

The one you swore before God to love and cherish till death do you part, is to be left to fend for them selves in their biggest hour of need right when they need you the most.

There is no truer test of love than this.

I lost both my parents with this horrible illness. It's one hell of a long good-buy, but that is what love is about.

Sacrificing your self for others. Is there a truer test?

no surprises there .. this man is a right wing political activist .. always has been .. "thou shalt not kill" .. is another commandment he thinks is wrong .. he openly called for the assasination of Manuel Noriega .. on his show .. actually his show should be on Fox

I lost my mother also, to this vile disease. My father was long gone. I wouldn't wish that disease on my worst enemy, but even though my mother, in the last 2 years of her life, knew no one, I can't imagine that my father would have left her. But it is a rough road to live through, but no one ever said life and death would be easy. I hope all who are going through this with a loved one, seeks help to deal with this long loss, you will need it.

Well, you have to remember that, in modern Christianity, a person's life only has value if that person is USEFUL. That's why the Christians at the latest Tea Party rally enthusiastically proclaimed that they were cool with the idea of letting the sick simply die.

Yet again I am sitting here wasting my time replying to a comment you have posted about "Modern Christians"

The "Christians" that are with the RUPUBLICANS and TEA PARTY DO NOT represent "modern Christians" I don't know where in the world you live that that is what you ASSUME all "Modern" Christians are like.

ACTUALLY... The Tea Party is very representative of modern Christianity.

According to polling, the majority of church going Christians identify themselves as members of the Christian Right.

I feel many identify themselves that way without the knowledge that they are essentially endorsing people like Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell. They don't even know what kind of people lead the Christian Right.

Unfortunately, this complicit approval from ignorance is even more frightening than an overt stance. They have support from people that don't even know what they are supporting. Blind faith and ignorance simply because the label of "Christian" is slapped onto something is terrifying.

How can you think that this crazy man represents "Modern Christians"??

Who exactly hurls homophobic slurs at dead soldiers? Westboro Baptist? They are a crazy sect they do NOT represent "modern" Christians!

Not ALL Christians are the way you seem to make them out to be with your hate filled posts. You REALLY should stop watching FOX and judgeing Christians based on the Republicans you see on television who simply use the religion to get votes from the blind who do not educate themselves on who they are really voting for simply because they want to vote for whom the church tells them to.

We DO support the poor, why don't you come to my town on a Monday and sit at our food pantry where we hand out food, money to pay bills, money for medication, money to the poor who need it to live. We give Shelter to the homeless too.

SOUNDS like YOU need to stop being judgmental and thinking all Christians follow Pat Robertson because we DO NOT. He is a QUACK.

No, he doesn't serve his religion at all.

I've seen it firsthand. In one of the darkest periods of my life (back in the mid1990s), I was about two weeks from being homeless (in January)., I hadn't eaten in three days. I needed medicines but could not afford them because my insurance got cancelled when my job at the time was downgraded from full time to part time.

The priest at the church I had attended literally slammed the door in my face after telling me that God was judging me. My alleged "brothers and sisters in Christ" were willing to quote scripture at me but were unwilling to part with a loaf of bread.
I eventually got back on my feet through the help of two lesbian Jews (you know, evil sinners).

I ended up leaving Christianity. I am now a Wiccan priest.

So you trade one lie for yet another ? I would have thought given your experience you would have come away with a modicum of wisdom.

Ashrimpmommy... if those "modern Christians" are so misrepresenting.. where is the outcry by the rest of you, repudiating their actions?? If someone like that was so grossly misrepresenting me, I certainly would have something to say. Where was the backlash when people CHEERED the idea of letting sick people die if they have no insurance? Even that chucklehead Perry was (and I quote) taken aback by that response.... IF THEY DON'T REPRESENT YOU, WHY ARE YOU LETTING THEM SPOUT THEIR HATRED WITHOUT ANY PROTEST?

Butterfly Mage TWO VERY GOOD Posts. Glad to see you were able to overcome those obstacles in life. It speaks volumes about the human spirit.

ashrimpmommy - Mage's post is pretty much dead on acurate. Yes, not all religions are like Pat Robinson or those lemmings that follow him. Glad to see your area of the country does not subscribe to those kinds of beliefs. However, when a strong public figure (or maybe infamous) makes a comment like this, it makes world news and that pushes it to the spotlight. Same with the westboro baptist church etc. Quite honestly, the 'westboro" organization is NO Church at all. When you sum this up "the modern view of religion" as a collective says it all.

Butterfly Mage ~~ Congratulations on rising above your hard times, with the help of two GOOD SAMARITANS, whether they be male, female, straight, gay, agnostic, atheist, religious, old, young, tall, short or from MARS. Bless the two women who helped you in your time of need.

One of my dear friends is a Wiccan, and she is a wonderful person. Sad to say that there is hypocrisy on every level in all denominations whether they be Christian, Hindu, Muslim, Jew etc. Some of the most wonderful people I have known have been Christian, and some of the most despicable people I have ever known have also been Christian.

I find it funny that most "Conservative Christians" judge all of one religion, on the acts of a minority few, but yet are insulted when the same judgement is applied to them.

I don't choose to "judge" anything on the acts of the minority. I was raised in church, but choose not to attend. Church doesn't make a Christian, and Pat Robertson is a poster boy for that thought! I grew up not far from the complex that preaching built, and Pat has been spouting BS all my life. I do know people, whom I consider Christian, but most of them don't label themselves. These people just seem to being doing the work of God, instead of talking about it.

To ashrimpmommy,

"Who exactly hurls homophobic slurs at dead soldiers? Westboro Baptist? They are a crazy sect they do NOT represent "modern" Christians!"

That may be true but where is the denunciation of Westboro Baptist Church by the "modern Christians" whom you claim do not hold such extreme views...Why aren't the Protestant denominations and Catholic church publicly denouncing this extremism? I have watched the news channels, liberal and conservative alike and I have not seen a minister or priest publicly denounce the actions of WBC. If these so-called "modern Christians" do to Westboro Baptist Church what they do to gay people everyday, that is suffocate them and deny their humanity, this extremism would be long gone, but that is not something they want to do politically. So what is your version of "modern Christian?"

"Not ALL Christians are the way you seem to make them out to be with your hate filled posts. You REALLY should stop watching FOX and judgeing Christians based on the Republicans you see on television who simply use the religion to get votes from the blind who do not educate themselves on who they are really voting for simply because they want to vote for whom the church tells them to."

But yet that is exactly what is happening in the so called "modern Christian" churches. When Rick Warren, Jim Garlow and yes, Pat Robertson tell you to vote for Prop 8 based on bigotry and a set of lies about who gay people are and the "threat" they pose, their sheep suck it up better and faster than a Bounty paper towel. They mobilize their base politically and get them out to vote....and they vote Republican....and guess what...they don't talk much to liberal media.

"We DO support the poor, why don't you come to my town on a Monday and sit at our food pantry where we hand out food, money to pay bills, money for medication, money to the poor who need it to live. We give Shelter to the homeless too."

Good for you

"SOUNDS like YOU need to stop being judgmental and thinking all Christians follow Pat Robertson because we DO NOT. He is a QUACK. No, he doesn't serve his religion at all."

And yet he has a huge television network to spread his poison and makes a crap load of money doing it in the name of religion...and nobody calls him out on it...especially other "Christians" who are in a position to do something about it. He wouldn't be on television if he weren't popular. At the very least, call him out on the facts if his religious view can't be challenged...but I won't hold my breath.

Sosad,

That may be true but where is the denunciation of Westboro Baptist Church by the "modern Christians" whom you claim do not hold such extreme views...Why aren't the Protestant denominations and Catholic church publicly denouncing this extremism?

Isn't it ironic that the "right" screams out about how we need to fear ALL Muslims because they don't denounce terrorism? It's one of their very weak defenses against the logical argument that ALL religions have violence and extremism in them. And here is a Christian expecting us to assume that the minority sects of Christianity shouldn't be a basis to judge ALL Christians.

Sheesh. Le Sigh...

@sosad, et.al., all of the 'mainstream' Christian denominations DO denounce Westboro - google is your friend.

Where are the cease and desist orders from either or both branches of the Baptist Church in this country against Westboro Baptist Church?

My grandfather was a minister of the Fundamental Methodist Church. What I experienced at his hand and from those who followed that church was anything but kind, reasonable or supportive.

IF these are the actions of a minority of those claiming to be Christian then the Majority guilty of allowing such evil and cruelty to be presented as Christian doctrine.

This is how organized religion works. God takes sides. God favors certain worthy groups. This is how it works. God wears stars-and-stripes underwear, brushes His teeth with macho NRA slogans.

It is timeless and time tested and insipid and Robertson does it and Falwell does it and Osama does it and Saddam does it and the Shiites do it and Mormons do it and Israel and Palestine do it and Scientologists, well, they don't really do it because they believe in creepy and very expensive alien cults featuring giant hunky posters of "Top Gun"-era Tom Cruise.

Sorry Ken, but the bible is nothing more than bronze aged myths written by humans who thought the wheel barrow was new technology.

Further - its an evil book. Read it critically and ask yourself, are these the words of a god? Slavery, murder, ethnic cleansing and child sacrifice are all endorsed if this book. Its just plain evil.

The way I see it, there is only two ways you can look at the Bible (assuming you believe in the existence of a god).

1. God is evil.

2. God is good and the Bible is slander.

There really are no other options here.

Should probably try reading it in its entirety, with an open mind Chris, before you make that judgement. The accounts of murder, ethnic cleansing and child sacrifices are historical accounts, and not endorsements. This book is clearly described as a guide, and parables are even pointed out in it. We can take any book we please and make it into whatever we choose. People who believe in the quatrains of Nostradamus are a good example. In them, he speaks of a garden city and a few have even believed he was talking about New Jersey. Doh.

I've read the BuyBull front to back twice -- as a Christian with an open mind. Sorry, but when God decides to drown everyone on Earth because he doesn't like how they worship, that act is either EVIL or SLANDER AGAINST GOD.

And the BuyBull God clearly endorses slavery and the murder of one's children.

ProudWestVirginian

Read Deuteronomy 21 as a start. Rules from god on how to treat female prisoners of war and deal with unruly children. Then ask yourself. Is this the mind of a god who could create 200 billion stars in the Milky way and another 100 billion similar galaxies - the universe as we now know it?

Or are they the words of a bronze aged tribe of goat herders.

"When you understand why you reject all other gods you will understand why I reject yours"

Indigo Halo I have to correct you. There is only ONE alternative because if the God of the Bible were good it would not allow such a slanderous text be used to represent it.

The fact is that the "God" pictured in the bible has the manners and morals of a spoiled child. Exactly the same behavior patterns that most early leaders had, i.e. kings. Napoleon Bonaparte said: "Religion is a wonderful tool for controlling the common people." , and he nailed the entire premise behind Christianity, Islam and Judaism.

ProudWestVirginian So the literally hundreds of examples of hate, intolerance, calls to religious wars, etc, etc, ad nauseam are all taken out of context? You do understand that you cannot have a rational discussion about this by taking each of the many verses and saying it is taken out of context while ignoring all of the other verses that support it? The theme of the book, its entire story line, leans toward violent control of both individuals and entire cultures. There are not more than two or three sections in the entire bible in which we do not see this.

Of course, the fact that all four Gospels have Jesus uttering something different with his dying breath does indicate that the Bible is an inherently flawed and inaccurate document.

I feel as though everyone in this comment thread is simply repeating their opinions and getting nowhere. What I don't understand is why you can't just agree to disagree and move on.

Indigo-You read the bible. You didn't like it. We get it. I respect your choice.

ProudWestVirginia-You read the bible. You like it. We get it. I respect your choice.

The irony of it to me is that fighting over the bible on a micro scale has only the ramifications of some hurt feelings or beliefs. Fighting over the bible on a macro scale has the potential to cause wars and chaos. My irony here is that many atheists often say the bible/religious dogma/etc causes wars and mass murder, yet they do not realize that they are no better than the fanatics because they attack the others beliefs. I just don't understand why you would argue and fight about wars of the past that were fought on similar lines of reasoning. I just don't get it.

Sure words on a blog don't mean much, because most people don't care too much about what the other as to say, at least not on msnbc.

But Indigo-maybe ProudwestVirginian has taken your words to heart. Maybe he is upset because of it, gets drunk, and smacks his kid. Maybe his kid goes to school the next day upset and starts a fight. Maybe the kid he beat up grows up and shoots 50 people in the name of a deity. Maybe not. Maybe thats a stretch. You'll never know what happens next though. I'd like to say think and believe as you wish, but be nice and respect others for believing as they wish. Isn't that what America was founded on?

People can believe what they want. I get very upset when Christians pass laws based on THEIR religion that directly interfere with my ability to practice MY religion.

As a Wiccan priest, nothing in my religion prevents me from officiating at a same-sex marriage. But the Christians outlawed such a union in 45 states. Likewise, Bush had to be sued all the way up to the Supreme Court before he'd allow dead Wiccan soldiers to be buried with full military honors.

And that's just for starters.

To be fair, they haven't outlawed same-sex unions, the states just reserve the right to deny recognition of such unions. It sounds nitpicky, but it also means that if I (not being a priest or anything) marry a man to his favorite coatrack, that probably won't count either.

I'm not saying that they SHOULDN'T recognize same-sex unions or your authority to grant them. Just saying that it's not quite as personal as you seem to be making it.

A) Comparing same sex marriage to someone marrying a coat rack is utterly disrespectful and offensive,

B) As long as DOMA (The Defense of Marriage Act) is in effect, yes, there IS a law invalidating same sex marriages.

It's extremely personal.