They missed the largest reason for many guidelines. The lawyer for my malpractice insurance recommended it.

Well, this is just based on my experience, but there is a very, very strong pronatalist bias in OB/GYNs. Women are made for breeding, and any other problems they may have are dismissed if it jeopardizes their reproductive potential.

I have painful and twisted ovarian cysts, and I also bleed 365 days a year. Due to ulcerative colitis, I cannot take hormonal birth control, which is usually how these conditions are managed. I do not want children, and have been trying for 12 years to find an OB/GYN who will either perform an endometrial ablation or a hysterectomy (leaving my good ovary in because I cannot take synthetic hormones). Haven't found one yet. I get the same bulls--t line every time: "You'll change your mind! We need to keep your uterus intact!" I always follow up with this question: "If someone my age [30 now, but I've been trying since I was 18] came to you for fertility treatment, would you refuse to treat them, saying they're too young?"

Never have gotten an answer. They just change the subject. Hmmm.

Seriously! I've suspected for a long time that a lot of obstetric practices are more about CYA from a malpractice liability standpoint than about what's best for the mom & the baby.

Megidolaon- wow, what a story! It's not like you couldn't hire a surrogate or adopt if you changed your mind about becoming a mom.

My thoughts exactly it left me wondering what the H they were talking about.

well said..............

It's because it is women's health care and we women are deemd to emotional, hysterical or uneducated enought to make choices about our bodies.....therefor "men" have to make the rules governing us.

If men held all this reproductive power in their bodies...this wouldn't be a discussion.

If you're going to accuse an entire professional specialty of lack of knowledge, don't you think you should provide some proof?

K, Sandy, how about this. I am expecting, and because of severe morning sickness, I haven't been able to take prenatals. I asked my obgyn what food I could eat that had folate in them, to avoid spina bifida, and guess what? HE DIDN'T KNOW! Nor did he know what I needed to eat for iron beyond green vegetables. I mean, c'mon, the guy has been in practice 20 years now, and he didn't know something I could find on the internet in 30 seconds?

So YOUR Ob/Gyn not knowing sources of folate means Ob/Gyns in general don't?

My Ob/Gyn gave me a booklet that discussed diet, exercise, symptoms to expect, home remedies for unpleasant symptoms, etc., at my first prenatal visit. This booklet was published by the office and written by the doctors (multi-doc practice), so they DID have knowledge of diet and exercise.

If it only takes "30 sec" to find the info on the internet, why didn't you look it up yourself catsclaw?

Catsclaw..............

get a new ob-gyn.............and make sure it's a female. How can you have any understanding of the female body if you aren't one.

Boston,

How can you have any understanding of the female body if you aren't one.

That's a silly line of reasoning. I suppose you would only see a neurosurgeon who had a brain tumor? A cardiac surgeon who has had open heart surgery? A drug counselor with a drug problem?

Owning the equipment doesn't give you any special perspective on pathology.

MarineDoc

Owning the equipment DOES give you a special perspective on pathology. A brain surgeon may not have had a tumor but they do have a brain, a cardiac surgeon does have a heart, and most sponsors were once drug addicts themselves.

I'm not saying that people can not understand the bodies of the opposite sex but they can not understand them FULLY because they are lacking in certain experiential knowledge.

I can describe to you in every detail what skydiving feels like but you will never fully know unless you do it yourself.

Likewise a male doctor can never fully empathize with what a pregnant woman is going through (same goes for a female doctor who's never had children) because really what they are telling their patients is info they learned from books or from the mouths of others.

And lets be honest if you had the choice between taking the advice of two people with the same credentials but one has the added bonus of personal experience with the issue, which one would you want to take?

Sam,

That's a really weak response. Sounds like you've never in your life done a pelvic examination, diagnosed cervical cancer, done a hysterectomy, etc, etc, etc. Oh, what? You HAVEN'T done any of those things, and have NO experience?

I do.

YOU DON'T NEED TO KNOW WHAT IT'S LIKE TO HAVE A VULVA, VAGINA, CERVIX, UTERUS, OR OVARIES TO FULLY UNDERSTAND THEM. A PHYSICIAN DOES NOT NEED TO KNOW WHAT IT FEELS LIKE TO HAVE A MENSTRUAL PERIOD. THAT SORT OF "PERSONAL EXPERIENCE" IS KNOWN AS ANECDOTE, AND THAT'S NOT HOW MEDICINE SHOULD BE PRACTICED.

...did you hear all of that?

Please stop with the nonsense replies. Sometimes I'm in the mood to be nice and teach gently, other times I'll just be nasty and try to embarrass the hell out of you.

I'm only human.

But to answer your question, I would take the advice of the person based on if they knew what the @!$%# they talking about...not the position of their gonads...because that would just be goddamn stupid.

MarineDoc

Re-stating your first comment with the only thing supporting your argument basically being "I'm a doctor and I said so" sounds like a WEAK argument to me.

Also if you had read the question correctly you would've realized I mention that BOTH people had the same knowledge but only one had personal experience.

And I'll repeat myself just in case you missed it last time in your hurry to defend yourself (since I get the feeling this is hitting you at a "personal" level [maybe a patient didn't want you as their doctor, maybe it was because of your "gonads" or maybe it was because of your attitude]):

A person CAN understand the bodies of people of the opposite sex, just not FULLY because their education is lacking personal experience.

Face it, if a male doctor tells a female patient she should/might feel some pressure in parts of her body he does not possess he is purely using what he's been told by others, as a source for this information.

And where did this information originally come from? The "experience" of a female patient who told her doctor. And over time after more female patients experienced the same thing this "anecdotal" information became a part of practicing medicine.

MarineDoc

FYI

The only embarrassment I feel is knowing that this society let's people who can't follow simple logic to become a doctor.

Sam, you don't know the FIRST thing about what you are trying to discuss. Please stop, you sound like a moron.

You are making the inane comment that a female gynecologist has some sort of advantage over a similarly trained male gynecologist AND that those who have given birth are even more experienced.

I would say that's one of the stupidest things I've heard all day...but hey this is the Vine--there are so many ignorant comments from which to choose.

How about this for your "logic". A heterosexual male gynecologist who had a very active sex life during college and medical school has seen and touched more female genitalia than a similarly trained heterosexual female gynecologist.

Who has more experience doing a manual vaginal examination?

Go on...I'm waiting.

Let me repeat this: personal experience does not equal clinical experience. Personal experience leads to bias. One female gynecologists personal discomfort and "feeling" cannot (and should NOT) be extrapolated to her patients.

Do I need to continue or do you get it now?

MarineDoc

Does the female gynecologist not touch her own genitalia??? Doesn't matter HOW many women he's slept with he will always be at a disadvantage from not OWNING the equipment? His access to that part of the female body will always be is limited.

And obviously YOU don't even know what you're talking about either that or you moronically refuse to listen like a stubborn dog chasing it's own tail.

I never said personal experience = clinical experience I said that clinical experience + personal experience makes a more well a rounded doctor who is FULLY knowledgable with what a patient is going through.

You are seriously still at this? You really don't know what you are talking about, especially with regard to the human body in general and female genitalia specifically. I suppose it's a good thing you have nothing to do with treating patients. You'd make a @!$%#ty doctor.

I don't listen to moronic viewpoints. Clinical experience + personal experience with illness tends to create bias. Example, an ICU physician I know became ill and went into respiratory failure. He found that he was uncomfortable on the ventilator and preferred to be deeply sedated. Now, all of his patients are more sedated than any other ICU physicians patients, and actually tend to stay intubated longer than average. Why? Because he believes (with no data to back him up) that all patients are similarly uncomfortable. Are you finished playing doctor? Because I'm really kind of bored with you.

Last time, you don't need to have a vagina to treat a vagina. One needs to have KNOWLEDGE of the vagina. I know people who OWN equipment that they don't even know is there.

No data backs him up and he's still doing it so I'm guessing no data refutes him either?

And for the LAST TIME I never said someone requires a vagina to treat someone with a vagina but that the addition of having a vagina gives them more insight (something your "intelligence" seems to be unable to grasp).

Furthermore notice whenever you come up with your analogies one of those people have more knowledge than the other because that's the ONLY way you can make your point. My point is that two people with the same knowledge but only 1 has additional personal experience, the person with the additional experience makes for a better advisor when it comes to anything including health.

And for a doctor you really seem like more of child, who not getting what they want resorts to name calling because that's all they have let to add to a debate, empty words. This whole "you really don't know what you are talking about" sounds more like you're trying to projecting your inadequacies on to me.

"You really don't know what you are talking about", is a true statement. And, I guess you didn't read the "increased time on the ventilator" did you?

Sorry, I'm going to write you off now as someone who is willfully ignorant, and not worthy of anymore of my time... so goodbye.

"Willfully ignorant" sounds like a perfect description of yourself. You want to stick your head in that sand, so be it.

Can't help but find it ironic that you're trying argue a statement saying that clinical experience trumps personal experience using YOUR OWN personal experience with that one doctor.

In the end your argument is unnecessary since I'm not saying that personal experience trumps clinical rather that personal experience in addition to knowledge is better than just having knowledge.

Before you scare women into throwing out their birth control pills, you might want to provide more detail. From the American Cancer Society (www.cancer.org) list of breast cancer causes, under the risk and lifestyle choices section:

Recent use of birth control pills: Studies have found that women who are using birth control pills have a slightly greater risk of breast cancer than women who have never used them. This risk seems to go back to normal over time once the pills are stopped. Women who stopped using the pill more than 10 years ago do not seem to have any increased risk. It's a good idea to talk to your doctor about the risks and benefits of birth control pills.

Now, bear in mind that the same site says that using birth control pills DECREASES your changes of ovarian and endometrial cancers. But they can also SLIGHTLY increase your chance of cervical cancer.

Taking ANY prescription drug should be done with awareness of the risk vs. benefit. Not based off hysteria about information "being kept from women".

Doctors are not perfect. If you don't like the one you've got - find another. If you aren't sure about a treatment - get a second opinion and educate yourself (from reliable sources). Empower yourself to manage your own health in cooperation with physicians.

Ok, so explain why recommendations for PAP screenings remain 1x per year, even though a lot of studies show pretty conclusively that for most women, such frequent screening isn't necessary, and that coupling birth control prescriptions with pelvic exams discourages uninsured and underinsured women from going to the doctor at all, and increases the likelihood that they'll have an UNWANTED pregnancy.

PAP smears/pelvic exams have nothing to do with babies, but are very much a part of the service that OB/GYNs provide. And speaking as a woman who does not want kids, it's the only service I intend to have.

Women get shafted when it comes to what is done about our health. We are more frequently assumed to have depression when something else is wrong, we are more likely to experience condescention from doctors, less likely to seek medical care for things like stress, and there are fewer study-backed health guildlines for women's health than there are for men's. There IS discrimintation in the system. And it doesn't matter if it's because women have babies or not. Women and men deserve equal quality of care. End of story.

Absolutely agree with you CJ.