So make sure your vaccine doesn't come from CSL, or uses deoxycholate. Big deal.

That's not the point. The point is people deny vaccine injury. It's real.

Robert-

People don't deny vaccine injury. It's rare, but yes, it happens. On the other hand, complications from vaccine-preventable diseases are not rare.

The vaccine did wonders for me last year. I got the flu and it only lasted 6 days!

Yup, every time I have ever gotten a flu shot, I ended up sick. I haven't had more than a sniffle for about 20 years. No flu shot.

More people in America died from the Spanish Flu right before WWI than Americans died in WWI. The flu is nothing to mess around with. Will probably be responsible for a MegaPandemic.

"Bring out your dead!"

Because health conditions right before WWI were EXACTLY like they are today.

They are similiar enough it the salient points for this discussion. Viruses havent changed significantly for thousands of years, let alone 100 or so

eric.. stop. You've already admitted you're connected with the industry.

Oh.. and please check into overall health, diet, antibiotics, personal and environmental hygiene....

where did I "admit" I was connected with the industry?

I dont even know what "industry" you are talking about

Because I did research in a nonprofit university laboratory? Really?

So all "sciency" people are in a conspiracy against you?

No one said those last things you mentioned don't make a difference. Does not mean the vaccine doesn't work

This flu vaccine commercial brought to you by MSNBC.com.

On that note though, seriously, vaccines save lives rather than destroy them. What IS harmful, and arguably a legitimate soft kill tactic, is this anti-vaccine rhetoric.

If you want to know the truth about vaccines and the harm of believing the anti-vaccine rhetoric go to jennymccarthybodycount.com. And if anyone wants to dispute me on this PLEASE go to the web site I just referenced first and check the information out.

Furthermore, if anyone thinks that vaccines are a soft kill method, or that they cause autism you should read this snipet taken from the history of the anti-vaccine movement on the Jenny McCarthy body count web site:

In February 2010, The Lancet formally retracted Andrew Wakefield’s 1998 paper.

In May 2010, the British General Medical Council investigation concluded that Wakefield and his two colleagues, Professor Walker-Smith and Professor Murch, had engaged in serious medical misconduct concerning the 1998 study and Wakefield’s license to practice medicine in the UK was revoked.

In January 2011, the British Medical Journal found that Andrew Wakefield has participated in intentional fraudconcerning his work which led to the 1998 paper that linked the MMR Vaccine to Autism. The BMJ published two articles by journalist Brian Deer that detailed how the fraud was conducted entitled “Secrets of the MMR Scare” Part 1 and Part 2.

Andrew Wakefield is the (now discredited) scientist that started the nonsense concerning vaccines causing autism, which is a bold faced falsity! Also an outright lie is the bit about vaccines causing sterilization.

Once again you anti-vaccine people are just being paranoid and getting people killed by convincing them not to inoculate themselves against infectious diseases. You want to talk about a soft kill method for population control in regards to vaccines. Convincing people not to get vaccinated is a soft kill method. You're convincing people to allow themselves to be killed by an otherwise preventable disease. That's right you're the ones enacting the soft kill method of population control. You know what they say about becoming obsessed with the enemy...

@Jack:

LMAO...too funny!!!!!!!!!

Once again you anti-vaccine people are just being paranoid and getting people killed by convincing them not to inoculate themselves against infectious diseases. You want to talk about a soft kill method for population control in regards to vaccines. Convincing people not to get vaccinated is a soft kill method.

Did you know that more people died from measles in the 10 years BEFORE wakefields paper. None died as a result from his paper in the 10 years after.

Details my friend. Details. It sounds like someone is getting emotional by reading an unscientific website and sheepishly accepting the conclusion they want you to conclude. Check yourself and your thoughts.

Try this wikipedia aritcle on for size:

The pandemic lasted from June 1918 to December 1920,^[3] spreading even to the Arctic and remote Pacific islands. Between 50 and 100 million died, making it one of the deadliest natural disasters in human history.^{[4][5][6][7][8]} Even using the lower estimate of 50 million people, 3% of the world's population (1.86 billion at the time^[9]) died of the disease. Some 500 million, or 27% (≈1/4), were infected.^[5]

^{THIS is why we have the flu vaccine. YOU need to check YOURSELF and your FACTS.}

Yes, it is most likely a vaccine that caused the outbreak.

It's 2011 NOT 1918! Talk about delusional unfounded fear. But that's how vaccines are sold.

Do you have any evidence or inkling that the 2011 flu will kill 50 million? No you don't.

Cooler heads will prevail.

I made that point earlier Robert. They keep singing the same tune over and over with a new lead singer and still can't sell the record.

Thanks!

I have never gotten a flu shot in my life and can not recall ever having the flu as an adult and only once or twice as a kid. If you are in good health, eat well, and have good hygiene practices there really is no need to get a flu shot.

Kerry and Robert please don't get the vaccine. It won't hurt anyone but yourselves, and I will imagine your suffering when you get the flu.

JS: it's recently been discovered that during flu season, people that don't get sick still get the flu. Their bodies just don't bother to go through the reaction to eradicate the invaders, so you feel fine. That doesn't mean you won't infect everyone around you though. Unless they get their shots, which for most insured people, are free.

It won't hurt anyone but yourselves, and I will imagine your suffering when you get the flu.

Get the flu sho.t still get flu. It happens

I am in the same boat with JS. I haven't had a flu shot in 20 years, and I haven't had the flu in 20 years. Leave it to some idiot fear mongerer to try and scare me into doing something else. lol

But it's really just about trying to control your enviroment in an act of self service, right cavalier?

Stone: Your situation reminds me of the people who don't ever have hangovers after a big night out. Just because you aren't sluggish and puking tequila soaked vile into a toilet a couple times throughout the day, doesn't mean hangovers don't exist for other people! haha.

I used to get the flu all the time. Started getting the shot 3 years ago and haven't really had any colds or flus since. To each their own....

And that's just it... To EACH THEIR OWN.

I'm the same as the majority, the only time I've had the flu in the last 20 years was shortly after I got a flu shot 7 years ago. Nope not getting another one.

I never got a flu shot until the year after I nearly died of Pneumonia a complication from the flu that landed me in the hospital for ten days with tubes in my lungs draining off the fluids and a fat 30,000 hospital bill that took me ten years to pay off.

After that I put health insurance at the top of my list of expenses and went with out a cell phone to pay for it.

It is your choice as so many say and I choose not to have the flu, uninsured hospital bills or pneumonia.

How interesting 3rdparty, I choose the same so I don't get a flu shot and I've had health insurance for over 25 years.

How many of you even know which strains of influenza the injections you receive protect against? So you say you get the flu anyway - how do you know? Are you being tested for influenza? If so, is the strain you're actually contracting the same as you received vaccination for that season?

Before you make a decision about the effectiveness of these vaccines, you need to understand the entire picture. As for me, I believe they are valuable for high-risk people (elderly and compromised immune systems). I don't get the vaccines myself. Not until a particularly dangerous strain of flu appears on the horizon, anyway. But I'm lucky; my wife is in charge of pandemic planning and routinely consults with the WHO and prominent physicians and scientists from around the world so I get the straight information.

No flu shot, stay away from new born infants.

Never had a flu shot, and it'll be a cold day in hell before I get one. The few people I've been around who have gotten the flu shot over the last 25-30 years, ALWAYS ended up going through the flu anyways. Some years I'ld get it just as bad as they did. No big deal. Only down for a few days, IF you know what to do. Other years, just a low grade sickness. Other than basic hygiene, keep your house warm, (forget that 68 degree crap), and keep the house as humid as you can... Without growing mold! And that helps a WHOLE lot in keeping the virus from gaining strength around the house. Not too many viruses can survive a warm, moist environment. Build up your OWN immunity and quit relying on drugs to keep you well.

Like Shonymat said, "To each their own." You want one? Go get it. Just don't force me and mine to get one. That way my immune system can strengthen itself and you can have your "sense" of security. Because if your shot REALLY works, you should be safe from anything I might be carrying, right?

This is America. Everyone can have what they want, and everyone can be happy. Some people want shots. Some people want guns. I think I can live with a plain ol' shotgun. ~_o

-------------------

IMHO#s - That's just plain old common sense. Only a damned fool would go around an infant, let alone anyone with a weaker immune system, if they were sick with anything. Especially the flu. I see your point though. The "Common Sense" gene seems to be running a bit thin in the world today, ain't it? ~_o

IMHO#s - That's just plain old common sense. Only a damned fool would go around an infant, let alone anyone with a weaker immune system, if they were sick with anything. Especially the flu. I see your point though. The "Common Sense" gene seems to be running a bit thin in the world today, ain't it? ~_o

Common sense is right! I used to be a OB nurse.....used to p!ss me off to no end when other patients in the hospital for infections, pneumonia, etc, wanted to come into the OB unit "to just take a peek at the new babies". Then, they'd get mad when we had to turn them away (it was department policy to do so). Did their common sense leave when they were admitted to the hospital?

Spiddas: Unless you are military, I don't believe anyone forces anyone to get flu shots, so i'm sure you're good!

Jack - Thankfully, you're right. Unfortunately, many who work for the State tend to use tactics of threats and such to enforce nonexistent laws, under the guise of "public safety". Excuses range the gambit from; 'you can't put your kid in daycare/school', to pressure from the medical community and such. As far as the military deal goes, see post #3.3 as there seems to be a potential way out there as well... Have a good one.

Get over it. Your body now belongs to the U.S. military.

Unfortunately, that is what happens when one willingly joins the governments military. You become their property and you get a first-hand view of Socialism/Marxism at its finest. And when it comes to the various shots, the flu shot is the least of your concerns. People may laugh at the "super soldier program" stuff. But with the track record the government has on testing everything on its unsuspecting slaves, er, troops, I would definitely not put anything past them. (See Tuskegee experiment and using troops as guinea pigs for radiation testing for the first atomic weapons.) And the sad thing is that you are now their property for the rest of your life. (See the ability to be recalled at any age and VA.) I'll just stick with being a part of Ohio's Constitutional Article IX unorganized militia. (See the Dick Act of 1902.)

Addendum:

@ litesingr

I stumbled upon this and it may provide at least a little help:

7. I am a member of the United States military. I don't want to take the anthrax [and/or some other mandatory] vaccine. What are my options?

A. Our website provides valuable Information regarding military vaccines, where you can read what other service personnel have experienced. Our section on the anthrax vaccine is compelling. It includes secret animal studies showing this vaccine to be dangerous and ineffective, as well as congressional testimony from military veterans seriously damaged by this shot.

For more specific information regarding your options, Capain Joyce Riley operates a wesite devoted exclusively to military vaccines, especially vaccine-damaged Gulf War Vets. Links to her site and other similar sites can be found at the above locations.

Here's the link to get you to the site page and main site:

http://www.thinktwice.com/laws.htm#7

Not complaining... It was my choice to re-join the military. Had to get the flu shot when I was Navy and now again that I am USAFR. Oh well. But I would rather it was given to someone that it would actually benefit than to me just simply because I am now a human petri dish.

actually makes people sicker by taking it.

That is an out right LIE. Go blow smoke up someone else's a$$.

ManFromNantucket -

Reference #2.13. When you follow the paper-trail, you find money. Like they always say, follow the money. Taking the shot doesn't kill the immune system, but it does weaken it to a degree. And the effects of the protection given by said inoculations are only temporary. When you acquire and defeat these viruses naturally, the protection is life-long.

The CDC says that approximately 36,000 people in the US die every year from the flu. Now that IS a lie. For 2001 the actual number was 257.

CDC National Vital Statistics Report for 2001

Rather than cite five paragraphs regarding this lie, I'll give the link.

Annual Flu Deaths: The Big Lie

(Hopefully these links come through. If not, I'll re-post in another format.)

I remember the Swine flu epidemic of 1976. I also remember that many more people died from the vaccine than from the actual flu itself. And a whole lot more ended up with lifelong problems because of the side effects of the shot. Specifically, GB.

Personally, I think most vaccines are BS, and in the long run, do more harm than good. I'll gladly pass on any of them.

There is no scientific data that I have found that proves that vaccines kill people or weaken their immune systems. At best there is a loose correlation between the 1976 flu vaccine and Guillain-Barre syndrome. The real cause of Guillain-Barre syndrome is unknown and is too rare in vaccination cases to indicate that getting a vaccine causes it. Besides, people contract Guillain-Barre syndrome in other instances besides in correlation with vaccines.

Although I will agree that the CDC exaggerates in order to push people's panic button, I will not concede that vaccines are dangerous.

Personally, I think most vaccines are BS, and in the long run, do more harm than good. I'll gladly pass on any of them.

Tell that to Louis Pasteur.

Hey Louie,

Your dead and a process named after you kills natural goodness, makes things like raw milk dead and makes sterility a common acceptance for pseudoscience in the numb nut field. RIP! Sounds like radiation killing both good and bad hoping a person does not die because of the radiation.

Cite your sources, and prove that.

Just stay away from my new born infant, or anyone elses new born infant.

and the elderly, and pregnant women, and anyone immuno-compromised...etc

Or just suck it up and do the world a favor and get your flu shot

Why? Arent those people so worried about it getting their flu shot? Why worry about being near me then?

they should be, but in case they didn't or happened to believe one of the more misinformed people on here

I get no flu shot... I also get no flu...

i wear a watch, and have never been attacked by a bear, therefore watches protect against bears

Thats the problem with studies based on one person.

Hope that's not supposed to convince me I'm incorrect.

Unless someone tells me when flu season is, I don't even notice. What reason would I have to inject myself with any drug or chemical needlessly?

One year, back in 1996 I believe, I let a co worker convince me I should go with the group to a mobile van that was giving flu shots. I came back to work after lunch, head started to feel heavy. After about an hour I could barely think or focus. I had to go home, and had to stay home the next day. That was the last time I did that, and the last time I had more than a sniffle in the winter.

Again, for the people who worry so much about being infected, if you get your flu shot, then what reason do you have to worry about those that don't?

again, anecdotal stories don't really mean anything.

Some people have a reaction to the flu shot. Yours sounds somehwat more intense than the average one.

But from a public health standpoint, it serves the common good.

Babies can't get the flu shot, for example. Im not sure on the recommendations for immunocomprimised people, such as AIDS or cancer patients. But for those individuals, you could be a vector for spreading disease if you don't get vaccinated

Show me that my getting a flu shot will not be a bigger cause of me giving the flu to a weaker person. The flu shot is basically a light flu right? The body is then supposed to fight it off thus killing it before it gets worse?

So then that same little flu could spread to a weaker person? I'm purposely bringing it home.

You say I might had had a stronger reaction than others, but explain how without the shot I don't get the flu.

It serves the public health to stop pumping garbage into our systems that in time make us weaker and less capable of fighting this off to begin with.

Take a pain killer a day and after a while they do nothing. Take anti biotics every month and they stop working. Its all relevant. Same with the flu. We are creating these same conditions you hear that needs fighting.

simple. the flu shot is an INACTIVATED virus. It is impossible to contract the flu from the vaccine. Its not "basically a light flu"

Why did you not get the flu when you weren't vaccinated? Combo of luck, good immune sytem, and hygeine.

Agreed about antibiotics and pain meds though....but different mechanism

I'm 46 years old. I don't think I've had 46 years of good luck, minus that shot I took. Good hygene, yes. I wash my hands constantly. Good immune system, I guess so.

Does the body forget how to fight off sickness? If someone gets this flu shot this year, why get it next year?

I work with people that are constantly home during flu seasons because they are sick. These seem to be the same people that have to rush out and get a flu shot. If I take a poll on how many people don't get flu shots, most don't get the flu either. Sure perhaps some people's immune systems are different, but I think people that are paranoid about being sick take steps that eventually cause them to be sick. Me, my wife, 2 kids 15 and 16. No flu shots, and no flus.

even your poll would be of too small a size to draw any reasonable conclusions from

The reason you have to get a flu shot every year is that the flu mutates and there are many different strains

Same reason you can get the common cold many times--too many strains.

See, there's where I have to question. If it mutates every year, is my body just that good that it can keep up with all these mutations? Or is it that these mutations really don't matter. Where do the mutations come from? Does nature really change that rapidly?

Can you "Over take" flu shots to the point where your body is rejecting it?

nature changes very rapidly. IN the 1950s, when penicillin was first introduced, it killed everything. Now, I can only think of one microbe (syphilis) that responds to plain penicillin. Everything else is immune, because of mutation

Your immune system may really be that good. I wager that youre right--if you or your family doesn't get vaccinated, none of you will likely get sick if you are all healthy to begin with

And you bring up a good point--if those at risk get immunized, what difference does it make--that is very reasonable

But i do think it might help the transmission of the disease if more people get vaccinated--fewer asymptomatic vectors to harbor the virus and allow it to replicate

Ive never heard of "vaccine tolerance" or rejection. You should be able to stimulate an adequate immune response multiple times. In fact, you probably do it every day as bacteria are all around

If it mutates every year, then it really doesn't matter. We are fighting a losing battle, and will take shots forever? Never reach a point where its eliminated?

If my body fights it that well, why not look and see how mine does it so that maybe a better solution can be found? Why continue the yearly body manipulation?

Some of these things need better solutions. I for one chose to live naturally.

Your opinion is noted, but there is a lot of evidence out there. The vaccine (any vaccine) depends on a person having a strong immune system in the first place. If your's is strong, get the shot. If not, you might as well just take the ride.

cdc.gov/flu/professionals/vaccination/effectivenessqa.htm

The shots are also only effective against the flus that are targeted, so if it's not in the vaccine, you can still get it easily.

The vaccines are not perfect, but I can state that I've not had the flu since I started getting vaccinated (for free every time), but I got it every year before that without fail. I have had some colds though. Wish they would put them into the vaccine, but there are so many variants and they mutate so often, it's just not cost effective.

For those of you that somehow think the drug companies view this as a giant winfall, there is a reason we still use chicken eggs like we did in the '50s instead of multipying vats like they use in Europe. The drug companies make bugger all on vaccines. They would stop making them if the government let them. Just ask someone in the business.

theCavalier

The shots are also only effective against the flus that are targeted, so if it's not in the vaccine, you can still get it easily.

You are correct with this statement, that's the reason they don't really work. CDC targets a flu or a variant of it and sends it off to the drug companies. The drug companies take a year to develop a vacine and it takes 6 more months to get it out to folks.

By then, another variant of the flu is out the current vacine is useless. This is the cycle that has gone on for years.

Occassionly, the vacine that is 18 months old works against the current strain, but for all points and purposes it is a crap shoot.

I am not against proven vacines or protection, but the CDC flu poof has gone on all to long.

Wrong. Takes about 8 months total.

Why would do you think it would take longer? Once you identify the nucleotide, its a simple matter of PCR amplification.

You can make about a million copies overnight. I used to do it

Most of the time is actually taken up researching the most likely strains to cause problems

http://www.influenza.com/images/timeline.gif

Ok.. so you are connected. Thought so.

i never said i did it for the pharmaceutical industry, or for the cdc for that matter.

I used to do research in a medical microbiology laboratory, but it was purely academic

You know what they say about assumptions...

Whatever eric.. You're another panic spewing individual. Wherever you did or didn't work is irrelevant. People are sick of the hype and fear-mongering. Too many of us have only caught the flu after we've had the stupid flu shot. Furthermore, we're sick of the government wanting to pump more and more crap into our bloodstream.

And... if you're healthy and DO get the flu, stay in bed and drink fluids. That's the way us old timers did it and we were all fine in a couple of days.

Enough. Go have the flu shot, just stop with the badgering. Most of us aren't buying it.

Most people ARE buying it...didn't you read the article?

No one is spewing "panic" or "craziness" but you, frankly.

It is IMPOSSIBLE to catch the flu from the flu shot. It is an inactivated virus. Basically some protein. Thats it

IF youre right, why didn't people catch polio from that vaccine? OR smallpox from that vaccine?

Some people develop flu-like symptoms in response to the vaccine because their immune system is reacting to the protein coat fragments in the vaccine. You people like to spew your misinformation without backing up your statements with proof, and then talk about how the Illuminati is out to get you or some other baseless paranoid assertion like that.

Burden of proof. As a skeptic I demand it. You people are big on paranoid ramblings but slim on proof. Your real reason for speaking out against vaccines isn't really because they've actually harmed people. No, it all comes back to "I don't trust the government. I think the government is out to 'get' everyone." Well, I don't trust them either, but I do trust my critical thinking skills and my ability to dig up information. And if you educate yourselves in the ways of science you will realize that there is nothing in vaccines that actually hurts people. They don't cause sterility, they don't cause autism, there is nothing in them chemically that could cause any biochemical reaction that would kill people or otherwise cause them real harm.

And in order for EVERYONE in the scientific field to be lying about the harm vaccines do then they all have to be in on the Illuminati conspiracy, which is patently absurd. Even every low level college research tech anywhere better be on the membership list and getting kickbacks of some kind. Frakk if you want to do your own biochemical analysis, then educate yourself, get the equipment to perform the necessary assays AND FRIGGIN DO IT!

What? That is too much effort? Yeah, it is easier to spout lies and misinformation.

I thought "illuminati" meant "stars"

eric, eric, eric. you can't come here with facts and anything above a GED, you just get called a collaborator and fear monger.

You suffer from the delusion that drug companies in the U.S. consider vaccines a money maker. Let me assure you. They don't. That's why they don't upgrade our pathetically old vaccine making equipment to the level that Europe has.

In short, don't get the shot. I don't care, you won't give the flu to me. Suffer all you want, but you should do it with the facts in mind. If your insurace is worth 2 cents, they'll get you the shot free. It costs them less than you getting secondary pneumonia and ending up in the hospital. If you don't get the shot and really do get sick, don't be surprised if your rates go up. I'm assuming you're not one of the American deadbeats that can afford insurance but doesn't have it, driving everyone elses costs up.

MB-

Many, many people die from the flu and measles each year. People die from chickenpox. The complications are extensive. These are not trifles, but real dangers.

Vaccines make essentially no money for the makers.

Thousands of people die each year from the flu and flu-related illnesses. However, it is estimated that 100-200 people die each year from chickenpox. (source= massgeneral dot org) One is not nearly comparable to the other.

I had measles, and chickenpox as a kid, and I am diligent about getting my flu shot every year because I'm diabetic. I really can't remember the last time I had the flu.

Now, if I could only convince my 80 year-old mother that getting the flu shot does not give you the flu!

Now, if I could only convince my 80 year-old mother that getting the flu shot does not give you the flu!

First you'd have to convince it works. That's the problem. They don't work to well in the elderly, the one's who could benefit the most.

Robert, go back to bleeding the patient, but please stay away from my new born infant and Kai's mom.

To Kai,

My son has type 1 and lives overseas. I've been reminding/nagging him to get the flu shot. Good for you for getting it. Hopefully other diabetics will read your post and will get one ASAP.

IMHO, our not getting a flu shot isn't going to hurt you one bit. There's no reason to get this riled up.

They don't work to well in the elderly, the one's who could benefit the most.

Please provide studies to back up this statement. (That's not an actual request as you will never find the studies to support this.)

Moderate, who's riled? Please stay away from my new born infant if you're not immunized. Please give me and my family a chance to keep her safe.

Diseased carriers may not show any symptoms.

IMHO, why would I want to come over to your house for any reason? Chill. You're going to die young from all this self-imposed stress.

Night Breeze (should be called asleep at the wheel),

Please provide studies to back up this statement. (That's not an actual request as you will never find the studies to support this.)

Ok you asked for it:

http://www2.cochrane.org/reviews/en/ab004876.html

Vaccines for preventing seasonal influenza and its complications in people aged 65 or older

Influenza vaccination of elderly individuals is recommended worldwide as people aged 65 and older are at a higher risk of complications, hospitalisations and deaths from influenza. This review looked at evidence from experimental and non-experimental studies carried out over 40 years of influenza vaccination. We included 75 studies. These were grouped first according to study design and then the setting (community or long-term care facilities). The results are mostly based on non-experimental (observational) studies, which are at greater risk of bias, as not many good quality trials were available. Trivalent inactivated vaccines are the most commonly used influenza vaccines. Due to the poor quality of the available evidence, any conclusions regarding the effects of influenza vaccines for people aged 65 years or older cannot be drawn. The public health safety profile of the vaccines appears to be acceptable.

http://www.immunizationinfo.org/science/influenza-vaccination-and-mortality-elderly

After controlling for the aging population and influenza A (H3N2), this study was unable to demonstrate that the increased TIV immunization coverage of the elderly had reduced the calculated influenza-related deaths.

Studies Find Flu Vaccines Only Modestly Effective in Elderly

"People should ask whether it's worth investing these trillions of dollars and euros in these vaccines," Jefferson said.

How Good Is the Vaccine?

Unfortunately, the evidence on how well the vaccine works to prevent death in the elderly is limited. Few of the existing studies are randomized trials -- considered the gold standard for medical evidence. Instead, most data are from observational studies -- studies in which scientists simply count up outcomes (here, the number of deaths that occur among people who did or did not get the vaccine).

But drawing conclusions about cause and effect from such observations is fraught with problems.

Only five randomized trials have examined the effectiveness of the flu vaccine.

But none of these studies looked at whether the vaccine prevents death.

As more people get vaccinated, you would expect the flu-related death rate to decline -- if the vaccine is effective. But, as the graph below, titled "A Windening Gap," shows, despite a dramatic increase in vaccination among the elderly, deaths from the flu and pneumonia have hardly budged. (The calculations have taken into account the aging of the population.)

For younger adults, flu-related death is so rare that it has not been reliably studied: Doing so would require a trial of millions of people.

Do you need more? Because I have them. Lot's of them. Lot's and lot's of them. Or perhaps you'd like to provide non-industry funded studies to the contrary.

Oh, just in case you didn't already notice. The elderly make up over 90 percent of p & I deaths. The vast majority of those are in the 75 and older age bracket. Yet those only make up a small fraction of overall deaths in that age bracket.

robert,

everything you posted states that the evidence in the form of RCTs isnt there, but that's far, far from HARMFUL

Its hard and expensive to run an RCT...and to do it for vaccines which are generally accepted to be beneficial (hello, polio?) is pointless

If vaccines don't help, then how do you explain the eradication of polio?

Each vaccine should stand alone, by it's own merit, and by it's own controlled trials. Using polio vaccine is only a diversion away from the effectiveness of the flu vaccine.

Polio was rapidly declining way before the vaccine. The vaccine had it's own issues and the redefining of polio in the context of acute flaccid paralysis played a part in favorable, but flawed results of the polio trials. But that's another story.

Stick to influenza vaccine and it's results. Stay focused. Use the data. Use the science. Know when you see bias and influence.

not true

the science behind vaccines do not change as you claim. Thats only denying the obvious

show me evidence polio was declining before the vaccine

show me evidence of your claims regarding flaccid paralysis

doctor, heal thyself with your claims of using data and knowing science

Night Breeze (should be called asleep at the wheel),

Robert, 7.12 Inflammatory

When people start their posts with an insult, I know I''m dealing with someone who's not an adult emotionally, capable of rational, intelligent discussion.

However, my point is that you are implying that the vaccines aren't working as well and therefore not worth the risk. That's your spin. The fact that the injections don't save as many as we first thought doesn't mean they don't work. Your argument is illogical and childish.

You know, you'd be a lot more credible if you ceased the high school crap - unless you are in high school of course. Have a nice life.

Nightbreeze, you call that an inflammatory insult. Is this your first time on an open forum on the internet?

Please provide studies to back up this statement. (That's not an actual request as you will never find the studies to support this.)

When people start their posts with an insult, I know I''m dealing with someone who's not an adult emotionally, capable of rational, intelligent discussion.

If you want to start off your post with an insult like this then you should be able to take some flak when it's returned to you. And if you are going to try and bluff through intimidation then you at least better be right and know what you're talking about. Unfortunately for you I didn't listen to your posturing. I already knew that I could back it up and I knew there is a paucity of research to back up your belief.

I've done the research instead of having faith like belief in flu vaccines.

If you want to get a shot, fine. It doesn't bother me. But, it's a belief system not science.

What's high school is someone telling me to not get around babies because I chose not to get a flu shot.

Eric you are a newbie to the vaccine debate. This is standard stuff that you should already know. A hardened skeptic doesn't deny the data. They try to explain it away.

If you've never heard about that it's probably because you've only seen charts that start with the advent of a vaccine. You should study history more.

I had measles, and chickenpox as a kid, and I am diligent about getting my flu shot every year because I'm diabetic. I really can't remember the last time I had the flu.

Now, if I could only convince my 80 year-old mother that getting the flu shot does not give you the flu!

Hi Kai! Haven't seen you in a bit. I had chickenpox at age 18 and I was seriously ill with it.....at the time I had chickenpox, a man in his 20s DIED from complications caused by chickenpox.

I've been a RN for nearly 20 years and I get my fluvax every year. My husband didn't start getting his fluvax until he was diagnosed with diabetes. Our kids get the fluvax too. The one year I had actual influenza (NOT "stomach flu", that term really works a nerve), I felt like I had my entire body stomped on. I wouldn't wish it on anyone.

everything you posted states that the evidence in the form of RCTs isnt there,

No crap!

but that's far, far from HARMFUL

Detail, Eric, details. That is another argument not this one. Stay focused. Pay attention. Open your mind. Ask questions. Ask the right questions. Don't fill it up with what people have told you what to think.

haha, robert, but that's kinda an important detail, don't you think?

lack of efficacy data does not equal harmful. Not a discussion for another day; its very appropriate for this current discussion

Also, I would argue that my mind is not closed at all. You in fact, pointed out the lack of data behind vaccines, of which I was not aware. That is useful info. But my attention is focused, and I understand your statements. I just disagree with the conclusions.

I think arguing that you should NOT get the flu based on the data you have provided goes too far. You can argue its effictiveness has not been proven conclusively, but that's about all. Because while weaker, there are cohort studies, as you mentioned, that show efficacy

Exactly, why America has needed less dentist in the last 40 years. People finally figured out that oral hygiene is worth the cost to keep them out of the dentist chair. Yeah, some people have bad teeth by genetics (just like some people have good immune systems from their genes), others just don't care. Maybe in the future people will get vaccinated and stop going to the doctor to get antibiotics for every "sinus infection/cold". 30,000 a year die from the flu in America alone, one in 10,000 will have a mild to severe reaction to seasonal flu vaccination (Lemone). Most of those reactions are because the person is allergic to eggs.

And out of that 30,000 how many were healthy before contracting the flu? How many were NOT under 2 or over 70?

I don't know. It would make for an interesting statistic. I do know that most people are very uneducated about the flu and think it's a "stomach bug".

Remember future pharmicists, a dead patient is a customer lost.

If you don't take the flu shot, please stay away from all new born infants. Give their mom's a break.

Most people that get the flu shot can be contagious for up to 21 days. Should all moms dump their kid in an orphanage until the 3 weeks is up?

Maybe everyone who smokes around kids can take some of your advice?

Most doctor's will suggest that future mom's get immunized. Remember, diseased carriers may not show any symptoms and the new born cannot get immunized.

Give a mom a break!

You posted this 4 posts ago and 22 other times.

I wasn't sure you were aware of this. Just trying to help out.

moderate, your statement about people being contagious after the flu is completely made up

Most flu vaccines are completely inactivated

IMHO, if you're that concerned about your kid, keep him/her at home. Simple solution. Quit making mountains out of molehills.

eric, who cares. You missed the point.

if you don't care, why did you post then?

What point did I miss? You said people who get the flu vaccine are contagious. Thats completely made up and false

Please inform me of the point i missed so I can correct that for you too

eric, IMHO was posting the same nutty thing over and over and over, I was yanking her chain.

And you've yet to correct me on anything. You have your point of view, I have mine. You need a lesson in humility.

you tell me:

You're another panic spewing individual

who cares

you missed the point

and I need to learn humility? Interesting...

Thank you.

anytime my friend, anytime

News Flash:

Everyone will die. Period.

True Andyb. Maybe this flu season will be your time.

Please stay away from any new born infants Andyb if you are not immunized.

Please stay away from all newborns if you are easily angered.

Good luck to you and yours Moderate. I'll be watching to keep mine safe. :-)

Ok. And we'll all be fine.

I called her, and she said if you can't pray it away, you should just go ahead and get sick. It's God's will.

You are ignorant of the facts surrounding the profitability of vaccines.

In short, bull.

Didn't the government give them 3 billion and immunity for last years h1n1 vaccine?

No money in vaccines? If there is no money it I assure you they would not be making it.

I think it's pretty clear who is getting paid.

Sanofi’s Profit Rises on Vaccine Sales

Novartis says swine flu vaccine boosts profit

Vaccine Market To Hit $19.2B by 2010

Global Vaccine Market To Top 23 Billion Dollars

Helping humans avoid disease is profitable! Where's the downside?

If you're not immunized, please stay away from all new born infants. Give their families a fighting chance to keep their kids safe.

A diseased carrier may not show any symptoms.

Please stay away from newborns if you are have the compulsion to type the same thing over and over on the internet. You may have a severe form of OCD.

For some moderat, but I won't mention names, their initials are ModeratINMassechusetts, they may need some repetition to get the concept imbedded. Please folks, diseased carriers may not show any symptoms. If you're not immunized, please stay away from new born infants. Thanks.

Wow, you just lost all credibility in the 'not nutty' department.

So... if I start vomiting.. I should come babysit - is that what you're saying? I'm not really understanding your occasional post, you're much too subtle.

If you're not immunized, please stay away from new born infants. Thanks

That's funny because MOST people aren't vaccinated with recommended influenza strains. I've had two children 1 and 4 . No immunizations. I guess somehow you think they were in grave danger. Illusions of propaganda.

or if you were Michele Bachmann

The body does not build an immunity to each years flu, because it mutates, and is a slightly different bug. Same reason you get colds every year. You are just making this up as you go along.

If your conclusions were true, nobody would ever get the flu twice. Hadn't thought of that? Doesn't surprise me.

theCavalier- Everything you've said completely agree with you and am impressed!

Isis- The flu virus evolves every year. There are hundreds of strains and each year we get more. Why do you think there is swine flu, bird flu, H1N1, that are showing up all the time? Immunity per strain does last for only a few months, but that is our bodies not the vaccines problem. If you acquire the flu naturally it will not change the fact that you can get it again next year. These shots need to be weakened or else we would spread the flu more. Even this 'so weakened' does gives our bodies a chance to make memory cells to fight off the next time we get it. These memory cells don't last forever for the flu.

Isis- The flu virus evolves every year. There are hundreds of strains and each year we get more. Why do you think there is swine flu, bird flu, H1N1, that are showing up all the time?

I'm 100% positive it's not because some one is tampering with the virus, in a lab.

You do realize that what you're stating contradicts what the CDC and other officials were stating when the H1N1 first came out, right? It was loudly and clearly announced that people over a certain age were at a much lower risk of contracting or developing a serious case of H1N1 due to exposure to a different flu in the 1970's (I believe it was the Spanish flu, but I don't recall). They had determined that previous exposure to the 1970 flu provided your body with enough "memory" of that strain to be effective against the newer H1N1 due to their similiarity. It's been proven repeatedly that the body can "remember" previous viral exposures and fight them off. However, if there is new data to the contrary I'd sincerely be interested in viewing it.

theCaviler likes to pretend like our immune system doesn't need to be able to fight off viruses by it's self. Modern medicine can't even find a cure for cancer but they are sure that flu shots are better than thousands of years of human evolution. These monkeys in white jumpsuits all get the same spoon-fed Pre-med and AMA approved education. Anybody that strays from the giant corporate agenda gets discredited and ridiculed. We would already have a cure for Cancer if curing a disease made as much money as treating one.

The body does not build an immunity to each years flu, because it mutates, and is a slightly different bug.

You should tell the CDC that. This years vaccine is the same as last. The excuse to get one again is not mutation it's that last years vaccine has "waned" and therefore another round is needed.

It's always a different story but same message. Get vaccinated. No science. No accountability.

Hey Joe,
The corner store has a special on tin foil. I think you need a new hat. The one your wearing is a little tight.

To all of you saying that the flu "mutates", explain to me why I've NEVER had the flu. I do NOT need a shot, we do NOT get flu shots in this household, and we are FINE.

isis,

the flu mutates. Its a fact.

Why have you never gotten the flu? I have no idea. Probably a combination of luck, good immune system, and maybe lots of hand washing.

But even if you havent, you can be a carrier, and give it to some other poor unfortunate soul who may not be as lucky

Please think of your neighbors and get vaccinated

eric, no and relax. We'll survive another flu season, no matter how much it's overhyped by the media.

No, YOU think of your neighbors and get vaccinated...if I get them sick, GOOD! Will work better than their immune system than a shot. If they catch the virus from me, which has NOT been weakened, then their bodies will build up an even STRONGER immunity.

I guess you could say I'm doing my part. If that means people have to be sick on account of me, so be it.

Im perfectly relaxed, but thanks

Im sure we (I assume you mean humanity) will survive this flu season, and the next, and the next few hundred for sure

But not all of us will be so lucky. There are many elderly, and pregnant women, and immunocompromised people I will have to watch die because of your ignorance

You should spend a while in the hospital during flu season before you make such a cavalier comment

isis,

I get vaccinated every year. You think I don't practice what I preach??

Your post makes no sense whatsoever. Why would a naturally occuring flu virus work better than a vaccine? Do you have any proof of that statment?

If that were true, why did polio suddenly disappear after the vaccine was invented, after infecting millions for years?

Explain that one simple fact to me

eric, you're an arrogant little thing aren't you? People like you always suffer the worst comeuppance at some time in life. Good luck.

Oh and enough with the fear-mongering. Most people just aren't buying it anymore.

what was arrogant? Please quote my above post specifically to tell me what was arrogant

But calling someone "a little thing" is a little uppity, don't you think?

If you don't want to listen, fine. But just educate yourself on the available facts instead of turning a deaf ear to things you dont agree with on first glance

eric, read your posts. Have a nice life.

Eric, call me cold hearted, but the old are going to die anyway.

How does the natural virus work better? I JUST TOLD YOU! It hasn't been weakened, therfore, those of us who DO catch it, our immune systems will be STRONGER next time it comes around...much stronger than if you got a puny version of the virus from a needle.

I'm through arguing with you. YOU ARE NOT GOING TO CHANGE MY MIND ON THIS, SO SHUT THE @!$%# UP!!!!!!!

wow, just wow.

Your statement is VERY cold hearted. Lets just leave it at that

The rest of your post is so far from the truth its pointless to discuss further, I agree. It would be like trying to teach a preschooler calculus

You conveniently ignored my point about polio. But instead decided to post an expletive. Well played

"expletive" lolololol...wow. So just because you don't swear, your holier than though? PLEASE. Get over yourself.

M4Ogre believes we need the flu shot. He also probably believes that we are still going to find weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. People like him believe everything they are told as long as the information comes from Fox news or MNSBC. He thinks a person who doesn't trust for-profit corporations that manufacture flu shots and vaccines needs a tin foil hat. Well guess what M4Ogre, people who don't have an immune system strong enough to fight off new and different viruses are going to end up like the millions of natives who died when white settlers came to America.

P.S., tin foil hat is the same lame attempt at ridicule people level when they don't have an argument worthy of debate. Have you reached puberty yet? Mabey come up with an insult a third grader couldn't.

I swear all the time... i just think its funny that instead of debating my posts in an adult manner you chose to tell me to shut the f up. interesting, that's all..

Allmightydollar- When did I ever say a lab had to do with it? These flu strains adapt in animals, that's why bird flu is bird flu and swine flu was from pigs.

By the way the flu does mutate all the time, but we still don't have permanent immunity to it no matter how we get it. Think of it this way: how many times have people gotten sore throat caused by strep? Once you get the bacterium streptococcus strain you will build up immunities and then can no longer get it. Yet people continue to get strep. That's because there are so many strains it would be impossible to be immune to all. If we could possibly have a vaccine for a few strains, you could still receive the others. So no there is not one flu and you either have it or you don't.

I cuss and swear. Get over it.

This has been a Public Service Announcement.

Hey wait a minute! I cuss and swear too, and ALSO don't get flu shots. Could there be a connection?

Well, yes. But what has this to do with the flu?

their viruses that we must be immunizied against. get the shot!! LOL

Try the suppository.

Be aware that according to the manufacturer of the FluMist vaccine, the vaccine is a "live virus vaccine" and there is a 2.5% chance that you will be able to transmit the flu for up to 21 days to those around you. (Per the manufacturer's website - just something to be aware of.)

That's fine. I'm sure your co-workers will thank you. Maybe you're one of those people that get the flu, but your body just doesn't react to it, like a study published, oh a week or so ago showed. It still leaves you a walking bug factory.

Cavalier, do you work for a drug company? I can't imagine anyone not on a payroll being this obsessed with a flu shot.

ModerateINMassachusetts

You should follow him. It's hilarious. He's got something to say about everything. I've been reading his stuff for an hour now. Told me I have no soul or something to that effect.

So... he works for a drug company and can see souls (or the lack there of) through the internet. Now THAT is an impressive resume.

either its a huge international conspiracy between doctors, the CDC, and the european and domestic pharmaceutical industry, OR....

its a good idea to get a flu shot

I mean, really?

... eric do you know how large and how much money the pharmaceutical companies make off of flu shots?

they may make millions, I don't see that as "proof" of this huge international conspiracy you keep insisting exists

Again, think about what you are saying. That there is a huge network of literally tens of millions of people in dozens of nations all colluding with each other to fool ModerateInMassachusetts

OR..

the flu vaccine is probably helpful.

Riddle me this though...

Where is polio?

The polio vaccine was a mistake. You can bet that won't happen again. Can't make profits on a non-existent disease. Oh, wait... The CDC keeps strains of every known disease.... Hmmm...

eric, I posted once to you that a great deal of money was being made in a direct reference to a comment YOU made. That isn't constantly insisting. Pay attention to who owns all of those MAJOR pharmaceutical companies.. it isn't 1000's of individuals. It's controlled by the boards of a few....

Hyperbole will get you nowhere - although it will get you farther than fear mongering.

The majority of your posts seemed to insinuate the existence of a conspiracy of scientists, doctors, and pharm companies that falsely promote the flu vaccine for profits. Im not sure how you don't know what you post ....

17.6
14.1
6.6

are your posts where you hint at some conspiracy, just for starters...

further, you mean, Im sure...

eric, re-reading your posts this morning have me laughing my butt off. You just don't get it. Message boards are nothing - they're cyber office watercoolers, or barber shops or even dry barrooms. They're just places people go to jibber-jabber. The truth is, they're not worth much effort. With only the click of a few keys and access to google a person can refute any "fact" anyone else can come up with. But! most people on a message board aren't going to waste that much of their life for a worthless endeavor. Last night this board was an amusing escape. I was watching the Red Sox in the midst of an epic choke and while trying not to pay too much attention to the game but still keep it on in the background - I was also here posting. That's how important all this is... it's a distraction.

In the entire history of message boards not a single soul has ever had an opinion changed because of what some stranger posted. It's not worth the effort of google/copy/paste.

when did I say anything different?

How have I been doing anything different than you? You or someone else posts, and I respond, and vice versa. I don't see a difference

Are you even talking to me? I can't tell...

This was the post you wanted me to respond to?

Hahaha...I find it hilarious that you ask me not once, but on two seperate posts to respond to your post (by number) on how message boards are just "an amusing escape...not worth the effort"

hahhaha...do you not see the irony?

Oh man, that's too funny!

Wow was that point missed. You don't seem to be grasping the not so subtle references to "chill, it's not that important, "facts" are subjective depending on which website you're on, it's just a hobby, no one wants to spend that much time researching things for an open forum on the internet that doesn't make any difference, no one's opinion was ever changed by a message board, this is just a distraction, don't let it mess up your day, don't take it personally and relax"

i think you completely missed the irony of the whole situation, but Im not suprised

There was no irony in your post. It was just you popping a gasket but nice try.

popping a gasket as in angry? Did I sound angry in that post? I was actually very amused by a point that sailed way over your head.

Let me spell it out for you. You claim I take these boards too seriously, yet

1) I do nothing different than you (post and respond)

2) I have never researched your prior posts( you researched mine)

3)You then post NUMEROUS times that I did not respond to one of your many posts on here

But I take it too seriously?

That has to make sense to you now

1). Your tone has been one of anger and condescension throughout.

2). It took less than one minute to click on your name and read a few of your past posts. If grasping at this minute straw is the best you've got - you've got nothing.

3). I asked you to read one post, twice, because that one post basically summed up everything I felt and I didn't want to type it all out 100 times. You of course couldn't see the point of it all and still are making mountains out of molehills. Incapable of grasping the "it's not worth the effort of googling etc., it's just for fun" concept, because obviously to you it is worth it and is much more than a hobby. (numerous does not equal twice - again with the hyperbole)

4). You started on me and then followed me around the board from the very first post you made on this topic. Read through the thread. Everytime I clicked on new posts, there you were - posting in response to something I said - all over the board. I merely returned the favor. Message boards are about posting messages, afterall.

5). This is all meaningless.

1) You have continuously called me names, such as "arrogant little thing" in almost every post. I have not done the same to you.

2) Thats one more minute than I gave to your previous posts. When you claim that I take this board more seriously than you, I do feel the need to remind you of that fact

3) see my post above. You have shown at least, if not more, effort into this than I have

4) I have had a discussion with you because you continue to respond to my posts, so I do the same. I also have had discussions with this robert fellow, so don't feel so special. Its nothing personal

5) Finally, you are right about at least one thing

eric, I listed off all the insults from you, from memory on another post. And the rest of it, you're just reaching and this officially became boring, even for a hobby.

Paranoid much?

Baaaaaaaaaa!

No kidding. My little cousin has a condition that doctors are perplexed by. they cannot figure out what is wrong with her. they came to the conclusion that since the husband was in desert storm, with all the vaccines he was given, anthrax, etc. that it is most likely what has caused his daughter's strange disease. her dna is a bit off than what it should be which the dr. is contributing to the various vaccines the father got. so the dna altering vaccines is not far from teh truth.

vaccines do not alter dna

sheesh...

Actually there has been some statistical evidence to say it may. It was limited and hardly frightening (I don't buy it) but it's not as crazy as some theories.

Show it to me. I don't believe it at all

Google. You know everything so even a blurb once printed, somewhere, should be indelibly imprinted on your gigantic brain.

No offense, but google is not the place to find reliable scientific data. Thats like suggesting I go ask my crazy neighbor who talks to her cats

Try pubmed if you want people to take you seriously

I noticed you skipped over my post about polio. Interesting....

No I didn't, I replied that they were different. That the flu mutates constantly. etc. etc.

Did you post it multiple times?

Also, I've started just skimming your posts.

youre right. Vaccines don't work

Just ask all the people around you with polio and smallpox

Wait just a second....

Those vaccines and the flu shot have very little in common. You do realize the strain mutates constantly and the shot you're getting is for last months strain. You know that, right?

To be honest, I probably know more about the flu vaccine than you. Not trying to be mean, but just stating a fact.

Its actually a projection of what scientists think the few predominant strains will be. I agree that it may be protective, or it may not be if we guess wrong

But vaccine science/theory is the same for both. IT can only help, and the benefits far outweigh the risks.

Just like you basically cannot get polio from the vaccine, you cannot contract the flu either