Down Synd children are often 'late life' children. Most are not capable of taking care of themselves, especially if severe. They are strongly attached to their parents and do not handle the separation of their death.

How do you justify leaving a perpetual child like this behind when you pass on. Leave it to the State? Leave it to your older children? How kind!

Wow. so are you saying Tired of It to terminate? give me a break. sisters, brotehrs, other family members could very well help to take care of a child. woudl you say the same thing to a child with metal retardation? i mean come on, a life is a life and is prescious no matter what.

TitredofIt is a troll and needs to be ignored. His/her lack of compassion is telling as well as the name!

How do you justify leaving a perpetual child like this behind when you pass on. Leave it to the State? Leave it to your older children? How kind!

I too have a child with Downs, and your comment reeks of riech wing.

Thing is, most of these wonderful kids do not out live their parents !!!

tired of it speaks the truth / tough but honest. they are Gods children, but no way would I bring them into this crazy and ruthless world if I could avoid it. a personal decision that thankfully we all can make, one way or the other. I pass on judgement.

If parents of "normal" children would spend half as much time actually raising their children as do the parents of special needs children, we would not have the "disconnect" in our younger generations as we see today.

The uniquly American competition between parents to raise "gifted" prodigies has spawned a stressed out generation polarized into two camps. Slacker and over-achivers, with the great middle of the pack stressed out because, in their mind, the minds of their parents ... they aren't applying themselves enough.

I wouldn't find it hard to believe that is the cause of bullying, teen suicide and likely the Patricide trends which seem to increase (all over the world) in Developed countries.

Kids need time to be kids. The more realistic expectations of parents of Down's syndrome children might be a better way to parent?

The two people I think of with Down's that have really shown that you can have a successful career are the actors Chris Burke (Corky on Life Goes On) and Sandra Oh (Sideways, Grey's Anatomy). Burke is still on the lecture circuit, and as far as I know, Sandra Oh is still getting roles...

Sandra Oh doesn't have Downs. She is Asian. There's a pretty big difference, in that one is a race and the other is a genetic disorder. There are trolls on the internet that say she LOOKS like she does (which she doesn't), while they are saying how ugly they think she is.

Angel - Learn to spell

Biscuits - I had an 80 year old neighbor with a DS child. His other two children were nearly 60. The poor child had to hold the hand of one of the parents at all times, no one else or major drama took place.

The children didn't want it, the grand children didn't want it. It ended up in a state run 'home' tranquilized 24 - 7. This is your idea of humanity?

Take your Reicht comment and put it! Oh yeah, use spell check.

your an idiot! Your experience comes from knowing one person and family dealing with downs. That is a very rare instance. most grow old and can look after themselves. Let me guess, all the old people in nursing homes that are under government care, should be put down? Get involved with Special Olympics or local schools dealing with special needs and then get back to us

your an idiot!

Classic.

A person is not an "it".

Isn't it Lady Gag gag that sings *born this way*? However you were made be proud because God makes no mistakes? Or does that just go for gays?

These comments are a potent argument why we must protect a woman's right to choose. Each person, family, and situation is unique. NO ONE has the wisdom or moral standing to usurp individual freedom to satisfy the loud clamor of any rigid fringe group.

Melissa Reilly is incredibly fortunate to have been into a family of 'comfortable' means. As the article honestly points out, not all Downs children are so fortunate. I'm thinking of a mother and daughter I see at the super market. I have a reasonably strong stomach but I quickly get away from these two. There is no possible way of knowing the potential of the daughter.

So, biscuits, how many are YOU helping with?

Do you have any idea how much a parent worries about what's going to happen when they're gone, or when they reach the point that they're unable to continue providing all the care?

Yes, the man I help with is a pleasure to me and his family. However, it's a pleasure only when those involved have gritted their teeth, decided to make the best of the situation, and are at peace with it. Fortunately, we have a wide network of support, allowing those of us who are companions to "Jeff", to fill in when the primary companions need to go away for a few days.

Not all families are so fortunate. So, until YOU, personally, are helping a family, you really have no business in judging what others do.

Tired of It..........A Down's child is not an "it". Maybe your parents should have tested you to see if you would be an A$$ when you grew up and terminated you.

My granddaughter has downs (and she was not a late in life baby) and she is the most beautiful child (inside and out) that God ever blessed this world with. She's loving and kind and knows when people around her are upset. The problem with our world today is not the children with disabilities it's the people like you.

What an awful article. First, an atypical example. Then, a skewed study. Followed up with the great news that we'll be able to eliminiate Downs because we can terminate all of our pregnancies much earlier! This whole thing is messed up.

Why not be realistic (drop the perfect) and express the very real ominousness of this advancement in science. If we were using the tests to prepare that's one thing, but to eradicate by killing babies is something else.

So creepy.

Just curious, Former Dem - does your granddaughter receive any federal assistance for child care, health care, education needs?

I did not enter this world to be a care taker for the rest of my life of a child that which the pregnancy could have been terminated. That is why we have testing. Get off your high horses. You choose your solution, and I choose mine.

I do not admire you for what you do, but I understand your logic. I choose the other path and mine is not wrong either. I think that I make the logical choice.

The earlier its detected the better, any type of abnormality for that matter. As long as its terminated within the first 6 months its going to be better for the families as well as the human race as a whole.

No. She is covered by health insurance which her parents pay for, they pay for her child care, and her preschool is part of the county school program.

She's lucky then. I know someone who works in a state facility that cares for adults with Downs. For one reason or another, they've ended up wards of the state and very few have families that visit. Adults with Downs can sometimes be difficult to care for. I hope this is not the case with your grand daughter as she grows up.

These children come into the world to teach us valuable lessons. They are nothing but giving, loving, compassionate and non-judgemental human beings - lessons we all could pay attention to.

Just curious, Former Dem - does your granddaughter receive any federal assistance for child care, health care, education needs?

So what if she is? All kids are eligible for a free public education. And all citizens with an income pay federal taxes, usually state taxes, and an assortment of local taxes (property, sales, etc.) - including the grandparents and parents of this child. They're just as entitled to the services they pay for as anyone else. If you want to harp on someone for draining public services, then target the incarcerated population and deadbeat dads, who cost a lot more, and whose families tend to contribute far less.

Pregnant parents are under no obligation to murder their fetuses just because this technology arrived.

So, mozzie, how many are YOU helping to care for?

@Not so: that's really none of your business.

mozzie - just as I thought! But, thanks for not lying.

My cousin had the heart, hearing, intestinal and eye problems you mentioned. Fifty five years ago my aunt's doctor advised her to put him in an institution, that he would need a lot of care and would probably have a life expectancy of 12 at the most. She and my uncle kept their son at home and he lived past 50, went to adult job training, and in the end cared for her during her illness. He lived to be 51, and passed away about a year after my aunt. He was a joy.

Dale, anyone at any time can suffer from one or several of those health conditions.... I really hope that if you come down with one or more of them that those around you have compassion for you instead of looking upon you as a burden to society.

Studies show that by the age of 40, almost 100% of people with Down syndrome who die have the changes in the brain associated with Alzheimer’s disease. I cannot imagine watching someone I love going through that. While the time you have with them may be a blessing and their life may be productive, rewarding, and happy; I wouldn't call the disorder itself a blessing considering the hardships they may well face, as well as the high rate of Alzheimer's, not matter how good your life is, that is a horrible way to die.

Melissa is quite a young lady. What a heartwarming story for a change..

I think Dale has a good point that this is a syndrome with a range of symptoms. Not every person will have the same experience. I wonder if the study was able to include more of the families who had lost a child due to severe complications earlier on, or if they limited themselves to those who had older, healthier children with Down's. Methodology in this is very important.

Dear BornAgainCatholic,

Thank you for your judgmental comment. I presume by your identifier that you are against induced abortion. I am not. I strongly believe that it is for the woman to choose.

Down Syndrome is the result of a series of imperfect biological processes. Ideally, during meiosis, both the sperm and the egg receive exactly one copy of each chromosome. In Down Syndrome, either the egg or the sperm has an extra copy. The chromosomes are the blueprint that guides the embryo/fetus to grow into the child who is born at the end of gestation. Spontaneous abortion (miscarriage) occurs frequently. It is not rare. In most cases the woman is not even aware that she is pregnant. Only about 1/2 of all conceptions progress past the first trimester. Most spontaneous abortions are because of chromosomal abnormalities.

So complete the sentence: it's OKAY TO KILL a baby in the mother's womb when...

Dale, I don't think BornAgain's comment was judgemental. He/she was simply pointing out that everyone is susceptible to these conditions, no matter how many chromosomes they have. As someone else said, a life is a life.

"Dale, anyone at any time can suffer from one or several of those health conditions.... I really hope that if you come down with one or more of them. . ."

Born again, are you? Certainly in no way that has anything to do with Jesus. It is your sort of sanctimonious judgementalism that ultimately convinced me that we must protect women's right to choose.

Allie, you must have a problem with comprehension that you do not see that BAgain's comment reeks of self-righteousness and judgement.

Ignorance is bliss. Never ceases to amaze me that when people express an opinion that differs from others or the majority consensus they get compared to Nazi Germany. Example "reeks of the Riech wing". Alot of the times couples are high risk and still go through becoming pregnant knowing they are at a higher than normal risk of giving birth to a child with above mentioned dissabilities. An example would be gated religous communities that are running rampant with down syndrome children and diseases associated with inbreeding. To purpously do this to a child and then sponge off of Society to support your family when people are losing there homes and can't pay there own bills and provide for there family, but hey as long as you are taken care of doesn't matter.

Speaking of ignorance........

No sir-not abort! Children have the right to live-the are God's wonderful creations!

OSMIUM -

...the mother chooses to?

Dale and jkatze, it sounds more like you both are being defensive.... I merely pointed out that anyone can at any time suffer from one or all of those (and other) conditions. Why is that judgemental? It's a true statement. Sounds like you are both overreacting to me. Perhaps there's a reason you both became upset at my reply? Take some time to think about it.

Dale, women do have choices to make, many of them. Would you agree that some choices are good and others are bad, and each have consequences? Would you agree that some of the choices people make are selfish and others for the good of all involved (selfless)? Do you believe in taking responsibility for your own actions or when you make a bad decision?

Killing your own child isn't a choice that just affects the mother--it ends the life of a baby boy or girl, who, if given the chance would CHOOSE to live.

Nice try BAgain. Let me refresh your memory : ". . . I really hope that if you come down with one or more of them. . ."

Wishing someone ill may not be judgmental but it certainly is mean-spirited and hateful. Christian? Not so much.

jkatze- finish reading the sentence:

BAC-I really hope that if you come down with one or more of them that those around you have compassion for you

BornAgain Cath- you assume everyone, if given the choice, would have chosen to be born. If I had been given the choice, I would have said "No thanks, I'll pass". That's just some food for thought for you. Not everyone values their life or views it as some awesome gift.

jkatz, you don't need to refresh my memory, you read and/or interpreted it incorrectly. I would never wish bad on anyone! Nor would I accuse someone of evil or wishing bad on another. Re-read what I said and don't cut off the part at the end. It is neither judgemental nor mean-spirited or hateful.

achick, I have no idea what you life is like since I don't know you at all, nor do you know me at all. I was very saddened by your post and while thinking about it, I was reminded of how I felt not that many years ago when my life was in dispair.

I won't get into details about what I was going through, since it doesn't really matter. The point is after many years of sadness, loneliness, and emotional pain, I was seriously thinking I would be better off dead. After one particularly emotionally draining experience, I was driving around in tears (well, hysterics is more like it), I became angry and yelled out loud to God, "IF YOU REALLY DO EXHIST, THAN WHY AM I GOING THROUGH ALL THIS?! WHY IS THIS HAPPENING TO ME???!!!!"

At the time, I was a typical craddle Catholic who left the Church after being confirmed and was attempting, not very successfully, to get back to church because I had two young children and I wanted to do the right thing--but I wasn't 'feeling' it at all and it was a struggle....so I basically went to church occasionally and signed my children up for religious education classes and made sure they were being baptized, got their first Holy Communion, and were on their way to becoming confirmed.... very typical of most cradle Catholics.

About a week or two later, I was signing my daughter up for CCD classes and noticed a flyer at the end of the table. The title caught my eye as it read, "Explore the Meaning of Life?" and went on to describe a program that the church was running called Alpha. DANG, I need to get to work.... sorry, but I'll have to finish later.....

To be continued....

It peaked my interest because of what I was going through and the fact that I was questioning my faith..... at that time in my life, the thought of trying to squeeze one more event into my week was not very appealing since in addition to working full time, I was out every single week night driving my girls to one of their multiple activities. The only night I didn't usually have anything going on was Friday nights..... one guess as to which night this program was running. Anyway, I figured I had nothing to lose and signed up. Worse case, if it didn't work out, I'd just forget about it and not go anymore.

It ended up being a life-changing experience. For those that never heard of Alpha, it is a basic Christianity course that allows participants to explore faith in Christ in a very non-threatening and friendly atmosphere. It starts with a meal, there's a video talk that illustrates the topic each week, and then small group discussion where everyone can express their opinions and ask any question....

I have to admit that at first, I didn't think it was for me, but decided to hang in there until the end (this is just my personality as I usually like to finish what I started). I'm so glad I did. I ended up meeting and becoming friends with the kindest and most friendly people at my church, so I started to feel more 'at home' there and best of all, over the course of the 10 week program, I built a personal relationship with Christ as the more I learned about Him, the more I wanted to know. I also put into practice all the things the course suggested (I didn't see the point of just going through the motions if I was going to take the time and show up--that would just be a waste). Prior to this course, I was raised in a Catholic Church and believed in God, but viewed Him as this being who watched over us to make sure we did what was right--and if we didn't, we were doomed to Hell..... I had no idea that it was possible to have a personal and intimate relationship with Him.

About mid-way through the course, I attended the Holy Spirit Retreat at a local shrine and I was prayed over for the first time. It was the most amazing experience as one of the women who was praying over me stopped and read a scriptural reading from the bible that she was led to read. It brought me to tears--it was so incredibly beautiful and loving and it was about exactly what I had been going through (I didn't share this with anyone).

There is no doubt in my mind that I had an experience with the Holy Spirit that day, since my whole outlook changed after that. That morning as I was driving to the shrine, it was a very gloomy and dark day, but as I was driving home, even though the weather hadn't changed, everything looked SO bright and beautiful and I loved EVERYONE. I couldn't have been more joyful.

I have had many other 'encounters' with Christ/God/Holy Spirit since participating in the Alpha Course, which I don't have time to get into, but, for me, there is no doubt in my mind that God exists and he loves each and every one of us--whether or not we choose to believe in Him and no matter what we've done. And hense BornAgainCatholic.

My point is that my life SUCKED before, so much that I wanted to end it. I can't say that my life is all hunky dory (who's is?!), but there is a joy and peace and purpose to my life that I just didn't have before. I've lived without God in my life and with Him...... there is no way I'd EVER want to be seperated from Him again.

So, you can do what you will with this, but I hope it at least gives you, well, hope.....

And if that doesn't do it for ya, my only other advice would be to hang in there--as sucky as it is right now, it always gets better if you can just hang in there.

Down syndrome life expectancy is about 50 years as of 2005, so there's a chance the parents might outlive their child, which is incredibly sad.

You. Me. The State. The Federal government. Think about that next time you complan about raised taxes and paying for Social Security.

Wow. Such compassion. It's touching.

I can't tell if that's scarcasm or not so let me clarify, I am in favor of SSI being deducted from my check. I see the benefits going to my brother and I'm fine with that.

The only thing that I can't see working out in the future is having siblings take a role. I think a lot of younger people (not all, but a good amount) are feeling that it's better to have one or two children given the population level, regardless of personal income. So I guess if the solution doesn't involve that option it should work.

How about themselves

There was a neighbor Downs syndrome child who grew up with us kids in the 60s. She was the cherished youngest of a large family. Her parents resisted advice from doctors to institutionalize her.

I can still remember her perpetually smiling face. Due to her many health problems, we kids learned to look after her so she could play quiet games with us. In turn, the rest of us learned about compassion. She was only 13 when she died and hers was the first funeral many of us kids ever attended. It was a privilege to know her.

I wager that Tired and Dale might not have had the opportunity to gain that sort of childhood experience.

lk734505...thank you for your comment. There are so many negative comments on here about children. Dale and Tired are probably the people who makes fun of these children and probably should remember the old adage "There, but for the grace of God, go I"

Jack---

If you outlive your kids/family and suffer medically so that you can't take of yourself --- who's going to take care of you?

I agree, this headline is really bad. Also, the article only mentions children mildly affected by Down syndrome. It's great that some people are able to function well, however, that is not always the case. I have a cousin who is profoundly affected by it and has been in bad shape his entire life. Virtually deaf, virtually blind can barely communicate and as he's gotten older somewhat violent. Of course the family loves him, but D.S. is not always easy to live/deal with. Choosing additional care options for him has been a source of a family arguments as well. To be fair, this article should have covered multiple aspects of the condition.

I guess it's all in how you look at things. Disease, including cancer, disabilities, etc. are devistating, but there ARE positives if you are not so blinded by the negatives....

Brian--the author is obviously attempting to take a pro-life stance in advance of the newly approved, less invassive test for the Downs indicator. This is an attempt to simply say, "Downs isn't all that bad, expectant parents. Go ahead and have your baby!" That is not society's role in this situation. Society's role is to support the parents, regardless of their personal decision regarding whether or not to continue the pregnancy. Their choices are difficult enough without any added burden of guilt from us.

While I agree that many Downs children today are able to become productive members of society. I also agree that for the most part they are of a very accepting and loving nature. However, there are still many who live a miserable existence. Just as no two ordinary children are the same, neither are any two Downs children the same. And, you know what, neither are any two sets of parents the same. They must decide for themselves. If the new test is accurate and can provide parents the information they need to support their decision, then great. However, don't youeven try to guilt them into a decision not their own! They are the ones who must nurture and care for their potential child. After all, its not really a child until it is sucessfully delivered from its mothers womb into this harsh world.

Here was something that caught my eye:

Whether they believe it or not, Skotko says, "These results will be quite shocking to many Americans, who might have some misperceptions about what it means to have Down syndrome. Family members have spoken and have said life is positive with Down syndrome."

The way it is worded, it sounds like that person would want themselves or a child with Down's, when I sincerely doubt that is the case. I think they need to express themselves a little more clearly.

The author wants to draw a broad conclusion that simply isn't evidenced by the study. For one, the study doesn't take into account the fact that the people likely to have negative outlooks have taken themselves out of the sample population by terminating their pregnancies. The fact that prenatal diagnostics and pregnancy termination are available means that parents of children with DS have voluntarily entered that situation, so right away you are starting with a skewed population.

To put it another way, suppose a study conducted among voluntary skydivers found that 99.9% of them enjoyed the experience. You couldn't use that study to draw that conclusion that 99.9% of the general population would enjoy skydiving. People who know they would not enjoy skydiving don't go skydiving in the first place, so they self-eliminated themselves from the sample group of skydivers.

BornAgainCatholic....As I stated I think your confusing being strong and positive and finding the good things that you have in life to pull you through the bad things that happen.... with what the articles headline is mis-stating which is "hey there are great benefits/rewards to having downs syndrome!"...but if I'm wrong (blinded as you say) feel free to explain to me the positives to having this, and or other devastating disabilities. I'd love to hear your take on whats so great about being diagnosed w/ cancer

It's funny how the Downs-is-so-much-fun- study comes out when the test for Downs gets less invasive.

Of course, the story focuses on those people w/ Downs who are high functioning. I guess it is not as inspiring to see a person w/ Downs who will never be independent or self-sufficient. I wonder if one of the questions on the survey should be: knowing what you know now, would you do it again? If the mental disability your child has now was worse, would you do it again?

Expecting siblings, family, etc., to be there to help is not a fail-safe option. If the siblings can't financially and physically take care of their sibling, who will take care of this disabled person? The state? Nursing homes? At what cost?

I don't think that there is anyone who wants to have a child w/ Downs--but to sugarcoat the whole experience is, at best, disingenuous. I read a story of a couple who only wanted one child. The couple's child had a mental disability, so they had another child to make sure that the disabled child would always have a caretaker. So, when the second child asks why they were born, can those parents tell him/her the truth and say, yes, you were born w/ the express purpose of taking care of your brother. Just because the parents want this sibling to be a life time caregiver doesn't mean that the sibling will actually do it.

Also, if the parents have older children, is it reasonable to ask them to take this responsibility? Should they not at least be consulted?

These are hard choices to make, but sugar-coating the situation isn't in anyone's best interests. Not every child w/ Down's goes on to be a self-sufficient, successful adult. A mentally and developmentally challenged child is no picnic.

"Brian--the author is obviously attempting to take a pro-life stance in advance of the newly approved, less invassive test for the Downs indicator. This is an attempt to simply say, 'Downs isn't all that bad, expectant parents. Go ahead and have your baby!'" I don't think the point is as simple as that, Old Sarge. I think the author is advising expectant parents to think carefully before deciding whether to abort a baby that's tested positive for Down syndrome. She's trying to prevent snap decisions. Maybe I'm a little naive, but I think you're making things too black-and-white.

I think the point of this article is to point out the positive side of raising a child with Down Syndrome (yes, there is in fact a positive). You see, the problem is that when an expectant mother receives a diagnosis of Down Syndrome, all she hears about is the the bad stuff, the health problems, impairments, developmental delays. I don''t see this article as pro-life propaganda, it is only urging moms to consider both sides of the coin before making a decision about their baby. Believe it or not, there are women who are strongly pro-choice who also have children with DS.

mc_dc: I understand what you are saying. I didn't read the whole study, so I don't know if it is relentlessly positive. It seems to me, from the tenor of the article, that the study picked a few positive cases and highlighted those. A test does not have to be acted upon, but the more information the better. I don't think it so much a pro-life/pro choice issue as much as it is a honest assessment of one's personality and means and deciding if they can handle it. Individual circumstances carry a lot of weight, and it is a choice I would not wish on anyone.

I've known several children and adults with Downs Syndrome and they are the happiest, funny, and warmhearted people--they appreciate what most people take for granted. Why isn't that a good thing?

Cancer sucks, but it can also bring family members together, help people to see what is REALLY important, etc. I obviously don't wish cancer or any disease on anyone, but stuff happens. It doesn't hurt to look for the good wherever it can be found.

Christina, I absolutely agree, raising a child with Down Syndrome is not something every family can handle, and each family has to make that decision for themselves. I am happy to see a positive article like this because, as I said, what women typically get in the OB's office is information on all the "bad stuff". And it is very important to remember that that fetus with DS is not some deformed thing, it is an unborn child with an extra chromosome. Choice is important, I am strongly in favor of choice by all means, but choice needs to be made in an informed manner.

I did not read the study itself, but the article did point out that the study was likely skewed in that the respondents were most likely to be the families of higher functioning persons with DS. Again, I don't see this article, or even this study, as propaganda, it is just meaning to show that there really is another side to the situation.

mc_dc: I found a link to a related article:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/44708270/#.ToUBdXOJsi8

Now, there are serious limits to these findings, published in the American Journal of Medical Genetics. Only half the parents the surveys were sent to answered, and those who did were far better off economically than the average American family.

The responses from 284 people with the condition came just from those able to respond; other are too disabled to do so.

This is by no means any sort of broad poll survey.

Aborting a child with Down Syndrome seems like an act of selfless love to me. The aborted child in question is being saved from a lifetime of mental retardation.

Sarah, your lack of compassion is sickening! God bless those families that are willing to raise such a beautiful child that knows how to love!

This topic is way over Sarah's level of comprehension. Sarah, obviously doesn't have kids

Sarah,

What a crock of poo! Selfless love?!?!?!? Aborting a child because you think that It would be better off? I guess when my grandmother had 6 months to live from cancer I should have smothered her with a pillow "for her own sake"

Is the idea that I don't have children supposed to be some sort of slur? Would I somehow be less intelligent if I did not have children?

I have two stepchildren, whom I love very much. I have been with them since they were babies, seen their ups, their downs, their happiness, their sadness, and everything in between, because the woman who birthed them was gone. When I think about one of them having a mental disability (since the phrase "mental retardation" is somehow uncouth even though it's been in use as a proper diagnosis for decades), when I think about their brilliant minds blighted by Down Syndrome, I want to weep.

I agree with Sarah. Now, if only her parents had aborted her, then none of us would have had to suffer 10 seconds of reading her post. It would be very selfless of her or her family members to have her killed now so as not to burden us any more with these comments.

Sarah, when you have the wonder of carrying a baby within you and seeing it grow as modern technology now allows us to see, maybe your perspective will broaden. I'm not trying to argue for or against the decision to abort a fetus for anyone. I'm just saying when you're in that situation and you see the miracle occurring, you'll have a little more respect for exactly how personal and powerful such a decision would be. It's not as cut and dry as you'd like to make it sound.

You are upset by my willingness to be honest about my thoughts regarding aborting a fetus with Down Syndrome, so in return you wish I had been aborted? How marvelously hypocritical of you.

Thank you, Paddy, for your rational response. I have not carried a child within me, so I don't have that perspective; all I have to go on are my own experiences. The thought of what it's like inside the mind of a person with severe Down Syndrome is so terrifying to me that I would think aborting that type of pregnancy would be merciful. Could it be that the person with Down Syndrome doesn't know what it's like to be neurotypical, so they don't miss what they never had?

Sarah:

So we should do a test and abort all children that have Downs, Cerebral Palsy, Autism, Asthma, or any other malformations? My son was born with extra toes and fingers, guess I should have aborted him. Maybe my mom should have aborted me since I have extra ankle bones, oh wait, she does too, so her mom.....etc.

My granddaughter has Down's and she is beautiful and smart. And you know what she would never say to you what you say about her. So who's the better person. When people tell me that she will never be smart or she has a mental disability I respond to them that she probably is smarter than they are and who knows, one day, a child with Down's may be the one to discover the cure.

You may not agree with me, which is your right, but I will defend, protect, and help care for my granddaughter to my dying day. And afterwards, since I have already financially secured her future.

Former Democrat, we're talking about the hypothetical abortion of a Down Syndrome fetus. This in no way includes killing a child who has already been born. I have no argument for or against how you financially take care of your granddaughter.

And if I did have an argument against it, it wouldn't really matter. Just because you and I disagree doesn't mean we have to hate each other. :)

I feel compelled to say the following: although there are a lot of posts against having an abortion [which in and of itself is odd - if it's ok to abort a fetus for any reason at all, it makes little sense to argue it is only not ok if it has Down's] I don't actually believe that many people would be willing to care for such a child. I believe many people think they would. But when it comes down to it, I think it's a coin flip for most.

I also see some very odd analogies being brought up here. Like comparing 6 months of suffering at the end of life to a lifetime condition. I think, for me, the clearest analogy is: if I had to choose right now between ceasing to exist, and living with severe mental deficiencies for the rest of my life........I know what I would pick. There's no sense screaming at someone because of that.

Aso, dumping on Sarah as unqualified to say what she would choose if her fetus tested positive for Downs', just because she does not have kids of her own, is not impressing me with peoples' compassion, either. Many people would choose to abort in that case, ncluding people who already have children and do not wish to burden them with caretaking their sibling.

University of Chicago Student - "if it's ok to abort a fetus for any reason at all..."

It's NEVER ok to murder another human being--where did you ever learn that killing an unborn baby is right?!

Sandra Oh. Downs Syndrome ??

Sandra Oh does not have Downs' syndrome. She is just Korean, for pete's sake.

Andrea Fay Friedman is a voice over actor for "the Family Guy" who has Down Syndrome, not Susie Oh

Your opening question is a little silly. Of course we do not choose to be born with any disability, but open your mind a little. Would you choose to be born with addictive tendancies, bi polar disorder, autism, aspbergers syndrome, phobias etc. etc. etc. However, do we kill all those people too, or abort just in case. What about making the best out of what we are and giving others space and life to do the same. I am more sorry for you for the hardness and lack of understanding that you have. Maybe that would be a good place for you to start.

Jackie, A fetus, particularly in the first trimester, is not a person. Your argument is not coherent. Reproduction is a biological process. The process is less than perfect. Fortunately most chromosomal abnormalities result in a spontaneous abortion (miscarriage) before the pregnancy is even noticed. In the case of Down Syndrome and the available tests, the woman now can choose not to carry a fetus that will be born a child with Down Syndrome.

Sarah, I believe everyone should have the right of choice but it sounds to me like the only one your trying to save from the hardships (being damned) is yourself. Like I said up top I don't think you have any kids of your own.

Read my response up top.

"If a child is born physically perfect but with mental retardation, no amount of therapy could ever bring that child up to a normal level of cognition"

Hitler had an idea of what normal should be.....Sounds like you do too.

You sound like a pretty cold-hearted person to me.

Enough with Hitler. If you're too afraid to actually have the conversation, just say so.

If a grown person has the mental capacity of a five-year-old, it's pretty obvious he/she isn't normal, or "neurotypical."

If the shoe fits....Seems like I am having a conversation. And I didn't say you were Hitler, just that you shared a life outlook.

What the heck are you even talking about "neurotypical".... Subjective milarky

"Neurotypical" is a phrase coined by the autism community, and it means "someone who does not have autism." My use of "neurotypical" in the current conversation simply means "persons who do not have Down Syndrome."

@ztphoto

Please see Godwin's Law... you just lost the argument.

HAND

Curse you, tedstryker, you beat me to it!

Ted Stryker and DRK, A comparison to Hitler should never be made. Even when it is actually appropriate.....

I am speaking directly to the similarities between Hitler's desire to exterminate a race of people deemed undesirable, and the aborting of an unborn person who is perceived as inferior.

While Godwin' Law is a humorous observation of the nature of debate. It does not invalidate the argument. Hitler is the most obvious example of "social cleansing" and therefore may be used .

Hand

GK...You don't have a retarded female in your family, you have a special person. Change the way you look at things and things will change the way they look. Not all women have to give up their careers for their special needs children, and dads don't get a free pass. Maybe in your family that's the way things are done. But then again, maybe you have a group of related people not a "family".

I actually had my son (DS) while in college and have started a new career since he was born, it can be done, just takes more effort.........

GK has a person in her family who is developmentally disabled and will need care the rest of her life, that's what she has. And a lot of women do, in fact, have to give up their careers for a special needs child. It depends on how profound the disability is.

And former Democrat, who are you to judge GK's family? It has produced two generations of caring women. Yours, as far as I know, has only produced someone who judges other peoples' families without knowing much about them.

DRK...I didn't intend being judgemental about GK's family. However, when you read what they wrote I couldn't fathom why they would call a "loved" family member retarded & why they would be complaining about making sacrifices for their family. I raised my children as a single parent and supported my disabled father and grandmother before they passed. Did I put my college & career on hold while I did all this? You bet i did. Will I ever complain about it? No, because they are my family.

You don't know that those two women ever complained -- GK did not say they did. Kudos on supporting your dad and grandmother and kids, but there was an end to it, wasn't there? You put your career and college on hold -- those women never got to have a career at all, from what GK says. Gk's family is now about to have a third generation of people caring for the same individual. (I'm wondering whether Down's is the diagnosis here, as that would be an unusually long life span for a person with Down's).

I agree, though, that the word "retarded" is no longer used to describe intellectually challenged folks -- I am not sure what the current preferred descriptor is, although I am sure willing to use it. I never liked "retarded" because it is so easily used as an insult.

Yes, he has his health problems and emotional issues; but we all have that, not just people with disabilities.

People with Down Syndrome are plagued by mental and physical issues that they would not have had if they didn't have Down Syndrome. Comparing those intense issues to the everyday problems of neurotypical people is unrealistic.

One of the best things, I have found, is to find help as soon as possible, do not put limits on him, (i.e, let him try anything as long as he can and it is safe), and let him reach for the stars!!

This sounds completely unrealistic to me.

During an ultrasound, we found that my son had one kidney that was a little larger than normal. The OB explained that while he did not agree, some doctors thought that it was a sign of down syndrome. He said we could do an amnio, but that it came with a slight miscarriage risk. We declined, as any risk was too much and we'd keep him either way. If the blood test was available then, I would have checked just to be prepared for possible health problems at the birth.

barb--who is paying for this help? (find help as soon as possible). The hard fact is that someone has to pay for it. It is cruel to bring a child that you know has mental retardation into this world knowing that you will not have the resources to help them.

If you don't have good health insurance, and money and time to run the child to doctors, specialists, physical and speech therapists, a good special-ed program at school, etc., are you doing the kid any favors? Are you doing your family any favors?

Wow Sarah!

You telling a mother that letting her child reach for the stars is "unrealistic" just confirms to me you are a terrible person.

I'm sure your two step-children are super excited to have you in their corner!

Telling a child to reach for the stars is never unrealistic. Expecting a child with severe mental disabilities to reach those stars is what's unrealistic. If a child has mild or moderate mental disabilities, they can reach those stars, it will just take him/her a little bit longer. :)

Sarah - So you presumed to know the level of the child's Down's. And said "it seems unrealistic" You don't know her situation, and you shot her down. I don't have children, but seems to me that there is no such thing as practical when children are involved

Sarah & Christina - you make me sick! My 3 year old son has Down syndrome. He had 2 surgeries by the time he was 18 months old and is usually in the hosptial a couple of times a year. My husband and I are both under 30 years old. No, we weren't ready for a special needs child, but you know what, you play the cards you are given. Our son is very special and we wouldn't change him for anything. He has brought our entire family closer and makes you realize how precious life really is.

With the comment "If you don't have good health insurance, and money and time to run the child to doctors, specialists, physical and speech therapists, a good special-ed program at school, etc., are you doing the kid any favors? Are you doing your family any favors?" Are you serious??? Don't you have to do these same types of things with "normal" kids? So if your child needs several doctors appointments for asthma or needs a special class for reading, you wouldn't help your child? A GOOD parent does WHATEVER they can to fulfill their childs needs no matter what! Even if it means taking them to extra doctor's appointments, finding specialists, therapist and a good special-ed program at school. So yes, I am doing my son a favor, that is what a parent is for!!!!!!!

Sarah and Christina - my son is high functioning, does great in school and is very popular, very healthy and active. Because i got him into therapies (at my own cost) at 6 months, he has done better than I could've imagined. He is doing so many things i thought were not possible for him to accomplish because of all I'd heard about kids with Down Syndrome. True - not all kids with DS will be like my son, but if you don't encourage them, let them try "to reach for the stars" then you will never know what ANY kid can accomplish.

The tone of the original post makes it seem like the child's mother believes that if she takes extra care of her son and gives him more support, then her son will have the same outcome as a child without Down Syndrome. That is what sounded unrealistic to me.

Yes be open-minded with physical and/or occupational therapy, yes be pro-active with trying new things, yes encourage him to do his very best, but do not engage in the magical thinking that all of these efforts will somehow enable him to be wildly successful. Her son can "shoot for the stars" all he wants, and it's good for her to offer positive encouragement, but she should also be mindful of the cold hard fact that disabled rockets don't fly very far.

barb--I am glad that your son is doing great; I am also very glad that you had the money to get him into therapy. By all means, encourage him to reach for the stars. Each and every child should be encouraged in that way.

However, this is not my point. The point is that parenting is tough, and yes, you will be running to doctors, etc. no matter what. If, however, you know that your child will be born w/ DS and you know that you do not have the money, personality, patience, etc., to do the best for that child, are you doing your family, child, or yourself any favors by having that child? If the child is institutionalized, is that a good outcome for the child? If you live every day knowing that your child could be higher functioning if you could have afforded a therapist, does that make you happier? No.

This study sugarcoats DS in a way that is dangerous. If the child is mildly affected, and you have a stable family, money, time, etc., yes, you can have a good life and so will your child. Not all DS children are mild cases, and most people don't have the kind of money it takes to help these children realize their full potential. A test that can help give a better diagnosis is a good thing; at the very least, those who wouldn't abort anyway have more warning, and those who are ambivalent have better info.

Sarah and Christina - I do agree with you both on many points and know that my case is probably exceptional. But my point was that not all children with DS, or any disability are a liability to their family, etc. I just wanted to be able for people to see both sides. My son will probably never drive, get married, have kids and do a lot of things "normal" kids do. But his life, and others can be enriched by him just being here at home, and not being institutionalized or aborted. This, and all studies have their good and bad, and do not cover all aspects of a subject.

So - Sarah...If one of your stepchildren was injured in an accident and, as a result, was intellectually disabled for the rest of his/her life - what would you do? According to your very passionate posts on this board - it seems you think the only humane thing to do would be to kill them. I'm sure that's not true - but that is certainly the way you make it sound.

My son with DS is extraordinary and he brings much more to this world and the the people around him than he will ever recieve in return. You will never try to understand that. I pity you. But, more than that - I despise the way you must be teaching your stepchildren to think about the people and world around them. You are teaching them to close their minds to those who are different than themselves simply b/c YOU don't understand DS. Do you understand that you are a bigot? Sad, but true. And the most ironic thing about that is that my son would love you anyway. Not love you b/c you think he just doesn't know any better. But, he would truly love you because that is who he is. As a mother of a child with DS (and someone who knows many, many families of people with DS), I am certain I have more real facts about DS than you. I hope you will one day open your mind and your heart to the truth about DS. Or - at least stop trying to fear-monger others about something which you obviously know NOTHING about.

barb--I truly wish you and your family the best. Money can't buy happiness or character but it sure smooths out the bumps of daily life.

Perhaps Sarah does not equate abortion with murdering her step child. Many people do not feel abortion is the same as murder; many do. But to accuse someone who is pro-choice of wanting to murder a child who is already born is unwarranted.

...we're talking about the hypothetical abortion of a Down Syndrome fetus. This in no way includes killing a child who has already been born.

Alwayslovemyson, that is a direct quote from me. If you had read all of my posts, you would have seen it.

I have been talking all along about my own personal opinions and my own personal choices, but I have never said that I would enact laws to make people agree with me. Not once have I said that every fetus in the world found to have Down Syndrome should be aborted. Not once have I said that people with disabilities should be killed. And not once have I impugned the choices other people have made. I have asked for an open conversation, a rational discussion of ideas, and all I've gotten in return from nearly every DS parent is anger, resentment, and an irrational tendency to twist what I've said into the horrible ideas of child-killing and forced abortions.

You parents want Down Syndrome children to teach me about compassion, understanding, patience, and undonditional love? I think they need to teach you first. You are the ones who need to learn about compassion, understanding, patience, and unconditional love, because I've seen very little evidence of it here today.

Jackie--I am so glad that you can see the good in your son and that he has brought you much joy. I don't think that there is "perfect" person out there. The goal, however, is self-sufficiency.

Samuel will need family support and care his entire life. Who will do it when you cannot? Do you plan to enroll him for SS disability, Medicaid, etc.? It is one thing to have a child w/ Downs and to deal with it in a positive way; it is another to have a child who you know will need care and expect society to pay for it.

I have answered these questions but they got posted at the end of page 5

Jackie. I have a son with Down's Syndrome. Do you really define your son by his diagnosis? Do you refer to your neighbor with cancer as your "cancer neighbor?" Please please don't let the diagnosis be the first thing someone hears about your son. When Michael was born and my co-workers learned of his diagnosis, one of my partners came to me and said "I don't know what to say." I told him, "how about Congratulations, I have a son." He is a boy first, diagnosis last!!!!

I absolutley agree and, in fact had that same comment when my son was born. Like I said, he is just Samuel to us all.

Why is everyone so concerned about who pays for the future support of these children? While they may collect disability at adulthood, guess what, they collect on their parents' records. While they may be on medicare/medicaid, so what, so are most people on welfare, unemployment, uninsured, etc. You have a problem with these kids, but no problem with people who seem to make living off the government a way of life. Besides I think all good parents try to take care of their children after they die, regardless, if the child has disabilities or not. Isn't that why there is life insurance?

When you use the new terms it makes you sound politically correct and unwilling to face difficult realities.

Developmentally Disabled has also been phased out-several years ago!-so who is ignorant and uninformed? Your comments were snarky at best. One can call someone Intellectually challenged, mentally retarded, slow, or whatever the term du jour; the fact remains that the child has physical and mental developmental problems. By necesssity, they require more care than an "average" child.

I know some Downs children who are delightful; very loving and gentle. I have also had contact with some who are overly intrusive, can frighten people with their obsession for physical contact (one, young man who is very strong, will refuse to let go of anyone who he takes a fancy to) and some can just plain be exhausting to handle day after day. However, it remains the personal choice of each individual as to whether they choose to abort or not. This article has highlighted a high-functioning Downs. There are many degrees and there are currently no tests that can tell you the parents the degree of severity. It is nobody's business except the parents as to whether they want to take on this challenge or not. Because no matter how high-functioning, it is a challenge.

Changing the terms do not change the condition. Eventually the new terms will also be outdated.

Using new terms and person first language is a sign of respect for the person that is being discussed. Saying "a downs child" or "a mentally retarded child" is disrespectful because you are defining them by their disability. Person first language recognizes that even though a person might be severely disabled they are a person first and for most. We don't say a "cancer person" or an "AIDS person." Why would we use other medical issues as definitions?

You could not eliminate it, it is not hereditary.

Exactly. I think the point is self-sufficiency in adulthood. There is no perfect person. There are no guarantees w/ children; the child that seems normal could become a homeless druggie.

Demonizing those who would abort a fetus w/ Downs is simplistic. I have a son w/ ADHD; it seems that some days both of us are counting down the years until he is 18. I know that I don't have the emotional or mental resources to care for a child for the rest of my life. People should be allowed to make those decisions for themselves w/out others telling them that they are practicing eugenics.

Christina - so would you say that aborting a child because of a defect does not qualify as Eugenics?

Go check out a dictionary definition.

Seems to me that it is exactly eugenics

ztphoto - for one- eugenics is about "cleansing" the gene pool. Those with Downs Syndrome have severely reduced fertility and rarely have children anyway, though preventing a person with Downs Syndrome from having children would be more eugenics then terminating a pregnancy of a embryo/fetus with Down's Syndrome.

Terminating a pregnancy of an affected embryo/fetus is usually a personal decisions made by the family. It is often motivated by views on life with a child affected by Downs and not the general impact on society. The concerns can range from ability to care for, to potentially watching their baby suffer through surgeries and pain and possibly death.

That is why "eugenics" label is not apt.

There are connotations and denotations. A denotation is the dictionary meaning. Denotations are common uses that change over time. For example: to retard is to slow down. Flame retardants can be politely used; mental retardation is becoming unpolite.

Eugenics literally means good genes. However, the denotation is Hitler, Aryans, etc. No, I do not believe in eugenics in this sense. There is no cookie-cutter human being that we should all strive to be or to have. If there was a test for homosexuality, would many conservatives abort that homosexual child? Yes.

I do, however, believe that the goal of any parent is to have a self-sufficient child. I was lucky enough that when my son needed therapy, counseling, etc., he got it, and I could be home to help him and could afford tutoring for him as well. My son doesn't have the attention span for college; I told him that all I want is for him to be happy, and get a legal job that pays his bills. The level of the bills he pays is up to him.

A big factor in this is that I am not temperamentally suited for long-term care situations. If someone were to tell me that I would be diapering a person w/ the mental age of a 4 year old until the day I died I would tell them to shoot me now. That is me. Other people are wonderful caregivers and god bless them. The issue is choice. A better test will help people make more informed decisions. Picking examples of high-functioning Downs Syndrome children from families that loved them, had the money to take them to doctors, therapists, etc., does not mean that many DS children are not abused, abandoned in institutions, not given adequate medical treatment or education. It also does not mean the DS child you decide to have will be a high-functioning one.

No one knows what they are getting into when they do something. You have the kid, he looks great, seems normal, turns out he's a serial killer. You do what you can; however, a little more info about what you are getting into never hurts. I think the memory of Hitler's eugenics program will, at least for a couple hundred years, deter people from starting any eugenics programs.

Emily - Your argument doesn't hold up. A parent's decision to ease the perceived pain and suffering of a child. Is actually a selfish act that prevents perceived burden. Therefore they terminate the child. Hitler exterminated Jews because of perceived social burden. Eugenics still applies

From dictionary.com:

eu·gen·ics

 [yoo-jen-iks] noun ( used with a singular verb )

the study of or belief in the possibility of improving the qualities of the human species or a human population, especially by such means as discouraging reproduction by persons having genetic defects or presumed to have inheritable undesirable traits (negative eugenics) or encouraging reproduction by persons presumed to have inheritable desirable traits (positive eugenics).

From www.ds-health.com, a Down Syndrome information website:

Q: Is Down syndrome inherited?
A: Only 3 to 5% of cases are inherited; the rest arise as an accident of chromosome arrangement during meiosis.

As you can see, eugenics doesn't apply as a concept here, because Down Syndome is not an inherited disorder than can be wiped out by selective breeding.

That's a nice story, but why the heck a discount?? That's just kind of weird, I was expecting they would charge more for accommodations.

Hitler was raised a Catholic. It is hard to tell what he believed, because he was so dishonest. However, he had at least a Christ complex in that he believed that he had been chosen by providence (God) to lead Germany. Equating a woman, choosing to abort a fetus that has a chromosomal abnormality, with Hitler and the Holocaust is just bizarre.

I am not in favor of eugenics, but the subject can never be discussed rationally because whenever it gets just a passing mention, people for whom their disabled children are a "sacred cow" immediately bring up Hitler, thereby squashing any and all dialogue. It never ceases to amaze me how the shadow of a dead dictator is still dictating what people think.

People without experience or understanding are not haters, nor are they ill-equipped to comment on this or any other board. Discussions like these are meant to foster education and knowledge, not as a place for one side of an issue to pat themselves on the back. If the dissenting opinions voiced and the issues raised by people on this board upset you to the point that you destroy any enlightening discussion by calling them haters and shutting down the conversation, that is your problem, not theirs.

I'm not equating the two. I'm simply saying that in the pursuit of excellence, or purity, or Aryanism, or any other desire to rid the society of its less than perfect citizens is because it potentially places a burden on said society is to have no human compassion.

Look, I know you who have never experienced Down Syndrome speak from a position of complete lack of understanding. To you, it's clinical, it's black and white, it's "normal" versus defective, it's practicality.

What I'm saying is that minus this experience, one cannot completely understand a story like this and the rationale for a family NOT aborting an imperfect fetus.

Ethan,

When I read your post, I still find you trying to equate society killing "less than perfect citizens" with a woman choosing to abort her OWN fetus from her OWN body. To me, they simply are not the same.

Ethan - questions - your brother's age? severity of his Downs? who takes care of him now? who pays for it?

Your arguments are valid to me only if his Down's is severe and you are taking care of him directly (not your wife or sisters), with your own money.

Why wouldn't someone use the Hitler argument. He was a REAL person. He was a leader of a Nation for a long period of time. And He had the support of his people. His actions were not myth. And he serves as a real reminder of what extremes people can go to.

here is the slippery slope as i see it.

1) eliminate fetuses deemed to be a potential burden on society

* justify, by citing tax savings. societal benefits, and better for child

2) choose sex and sexual orientation of child.

*justification - get the child you want

3) eliminate race or culture deemed inferior.

* justification - tax savings and better for society.

Seems totally possible to me. So I do not think use of Hitler in an argument is draconian.

You F*****G cretin!!!

I find your story hard to believe, but, if, in fact, it is true, thank God you didn't bring a child into this world. Hope you don't ever have any children, either. You would not be able to handle the ups and downs, perfections and imperfections, joys and sadnesses any child brings.

Please abstain from having children; your comment proves you are not fit to be a parent to ANY child.