You nailed it Wakehead. Long lines for treatment and procedures (private for-profit hospitals), Death Pannels - people deciding the fate of other's lives (for-profit insurance companies), limitations on who gets what drugs (for profit big-pharma). Weren't these the nightmare scenarios that these same companies conned the tea-baggers into believing was going to happen if we had a single payer system and nationalized health care? Do the Teabaggers feel as stupid as they look? They bought it hook, line, and sinker.

Even without this story, there's already rationed care. It's called insurance. That's why national health insurance is the only answer, except to idiots in the right wing. Why is it every other industrialized nation has universal health care in one way or another, but not us? Because they're wrong and we're right? No, because the right wing is under control of $$$ from insurance companies AND their constituents are TOO STUPID to get they are being used.

Your post is full of crap.

45,000 Americans die each year from preventable causes because they have no health insurance.

The rich already literally get away with murder and all kinds of other crimes. So, getting treatment for an ingrown toenail for being rich while a poor person is left to die isn't at all surprising.

Doubt if "Baby Joseph" was here in the states, the outcome would have been any different. If his folks had insurance on him, the company's response would probably been the same as the Canadian govt.'s. Just a difference of who is going to let you die -- the govt. or an insurance co. Canadians actually purchase health insurance if they come to the states. Oddly enough, when we travel to another country, that's something we don't seem to worry about as that country's health care system will take care of us and won't bill our insurance company. When someone in another country is paying a dime for the same medicine we are paying upwards of $200 for, then yeah, I think our system is broken.

"Baby Joseph" was going to die, regardless of if he got a tracheotomy or not. The medical community of Canada refused to do the procedure because they felt it would have caused undue discomfort and pain to him.

This is so shocking! I am outraged. My outrage is outrage. How could this be?

/roll my eyes til they hurt

We didn't need a report to tell us what everyone already know about our pay to play health care system.

@raddave. It is extremely naive to think that the Canadian gov't denied the procedure because it cared about the undue discomfort and pain to "Baby Joseph". It was the all-might bottom dollar that the insurance companies and governments with nationalized care use as the basis for treatment, including who lives or dies and when.

Something is wrong with society when $ is the measure people are deemed worthy of something or not. Unfortunately national health care will not rectify it, but it will get people care they desperately need if they can hold on long enough. Just another profession that used to hold some esteem that has fallen from grace.

It's time to realize that no matter what a person does, has, or looks like, it is no guarantee to the character of the person(s). When we all demand and hold strong to our principles that this and other behaviors are not acceptable maybe we can make a dent in what is wrong with humankind.

RADDAVE,

i know, and the article states he was going to die.

the point is that a tracheotomy (sp?) is a simple procedure.

even in america NOW if insurance wont cover it you can still pay for it to get done.

but the canadian government wouldnt let it happen at all.

so if the insurance would cover my kids tracheotomy, i would have dropped the money to have it happen.

so get over it. yes even insurance can make the same call now, but there are ways around it.

how long till the canadian government sterilizes these parents since they have had 2 kids with the same problem become a drain on their health care system?

they were willing to pull the plug on a kid, so dont think it hasent crossed their minds!!

i am just pissed that people think obamacare is going to be different!!

its not!

there will be panels the will weigh cost v someones life!
and if you think there wont be you are living under a rock!!
the government is NOT there to pay to keep you as a veggie for ever.

canadians do come here for other things cause a hip replacement will take a year, here it happens in months...... if you have the money.

sad reality of it is, its all driven by money.

doctors didnt just go to 8 years of school and hundreds of thousands of dollars to work for free.

Yet we ridicule the corruption in other countries. It is evident that this country always revolves around the elite and who can lobby better. The privileges are granted indirectly or is segmented in such a way that you can pay your way into getting preferential treatment. That is how corruption starts everywhere. It doesn't get long to get mired in deep unless we mend our ways quickly.

As long as people continue this idiotic back and forth we will continue to be controlled like the lemmings that our government believes we are.

I get a huge laugh when I hear people argue about big government and big business. Dont people realize that the people running the government are businessmen and women?

Our government is now a tool used by very powerful people to push agendas.

You voted for Obama? You really voted for George Soros. Vote for Palin? You are really voting for the natural gas lobby. Vote for against healthcare? Will insurance companies or healthcare providers or big pharma get the government cheese.

Hank Paulson, among others, ruined our economy and his buddy George puts him in charge of the Treasury... No wonder Goldman Sachs prospered while Lehman went belly up.

Vote for TARP I? Probably you are like senators who owns Wachovia stock and all of his real estate investments are financed by Wachovia. Fall out of favor and You get swallowed by Wells Fargo.

ViVa America!!!

Why any person would want a National Health is beyond me.

We now have many of our brave troops returning from the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan with loss of limbs and severe brain damage. The Federal Government cannot afford to pay for their extended care. This is why we are seeing the increase of non-profit organizations like, "Wounded Warriors," and so many more with a stated mission to help pay for their care.

The Government's track record of trying to manage our money is a massive failure. Look at the state of Social Security, Medicare, and Medicade for examples. Not only are they broke or going broke they are full of corruption and cheats bilking millions.

I am not pleased with my private insurance either. That diamond studded platinum insurance card costs a small fortune in annual premiums and they just jacked the cost of them another 10% recently.

The insurance companies are a bunch of crooks too. However, it is the laws of our country that have tied our hands and not allowed for any good old time capitalistic competition. The strong insurance lobbies have seen to that. They are all in bed together with The Fools On The Hill.

The way the law reads today is that one can only buy health insurance from within the state of with they are a citizen. You cannot, by law, buy in any other state where the premiums may be less costly.

There was talk, a very brief chat, by our Congress to change this law and allow for interstate commerce, nation wide. If they changed this law and allow for we the people to buy health insurance from any company any place in the nation it would open free commerce right up.

Once that is done I could or any one could then start a buyers group for health insurance. I could call mine "The All American Health Group," or some such name. If I could get a mere 10% of the 300 million Americans to sign up we would be a large and strong buying power. The insurance companies would all be begging for our business, each offering more services for less in premiums. I could charge a one time fee to each member, say $100.00 for a life-time membership. That money would be invested by some smart Warton graduates and the interest would handle all the administrative needs.

Ten million Americans, 20 million Americans, pick a number would be a sizable buying group. It would remove the lobbyists who donate so much to our elected officials. It would have the unregulated insurance companies all scampering for our business. Their only incentives could and would be more for less. " We will toss Dental and Vision in on the deal," I can hear them saying.

This has been going on for years in a small way in America, with "buying clubs," that sell food and stuff. People buy a membership and because of their numbers are able to keep the retail prices down. Why not do the same with health insurance?

Send me your $100.00, you too can be a member of the largest health insurance buying group in the country. Yes, larger than all the numbers of Government employees. Join today and cut your premiums in half and double the services paid for by your money via your insurance company. Remember this: when you have a CAT scan or a PET scan it is not your insurance company paying for it. It is your insurance company using your money to pay for it. It is always your money and not theirs.

Everybody works harder when they know they're going to be paid for it.

mycorner,

exactly why Obama and Pelosi nightmare of socialism would never work.

humans are involved.

The Stansford Prison experiment is a perfect example.

how long would it take Nancy Pelosi to decide that the little people cant be expected to act rationally after 10pm...

national 10pm curfew unless you have a special pass.

1984?

What's ridiculous is people believing that a government paid-for health system is free.

What's even more ridiculous is people believeing that a government paid-for health system won't have the same result of VIPs going to the front of the line when receiving health care benefits.

MrCoot... you're a wise man.

America Today. ooooohhh...that SOSHULIZM! It's so EVIL!

Honey, you wouldn't know socialism if it hit you.

I like getting treated FIRST.

If you work hard for your position in society then you need to reap the benefits.

........................................Stop your damn crying. .................................

That comment about baby Joseph and nationalized health care is pointless. There is no perfect system, you can find horror stories about any health care system if you look hard enough. That being said, the stories out of the US of insurance companies denying people care for a plethora of ridiculous reasons to me is much more horrific than anything you'll find the Canadian health care system doing. Our system works as well or better than yours, I speak from experience whereas you speak from reading American journalists' opinions of our experience

OMG Really People!!!

That is ONE example where a public system perhaps failed. Our private system provides TENS OF THOUSANDS of examples. When you can link to tens of thousands of problems such as you just linked to, above, then get back to us.

well, the Canadian supreme court in 2005 declared that the national health care system was causing delays that were directly and negatively affecting health care for thousands of individuals.

I work for a Canadian couple who live full time here in the US. They say that it takes months to get in for appointments, even if strongly urged referrals.

They love it here that they can get in to see their doctor within a week, so our system isn't quite so bad.

#1- Fri Sep 30, 2011 8:53 AM EDT

Stand and Deliver

You nailed it Wakehead. Long lines for treatment and procedures (private for-profit hospitals), Death Pannels - people deciding the fate of other's lives (for-profit insurance companies), limitations on who gets what drugs (for profit big-pharma). Weren't these the nightmare scenarios that these same companies conned the tea-baggers into believing was going to happen if we had a single payer system and nationalized health care? Do the Teabaggers feel as stupid as they look? They bought it hook, line, and sinker.

Right on target Wakehead and Stand and Deliver,

If any one of you can stomach it - just image the increasing number of inhumane scenarios that would occur in the ERs - if the GOP/Tea Party managed to hoodwink even more Americans into voting for them in 2012.

If the Right should manage to grab the Oval Office in 2012 - the masses would be fortunate to be able to receive any kind of quality health care.

This article is a great example of the "class warfare" that the GOP/Tea Party is quite comfortable with.

.

Yesterday a friend called me very upset. Early in the week, he had suddenly started sweating profusely, had gone white as a sheet and began vomiting anything he tried to eat, even water. His employer came to find out how he was after a couple of days, became alarmed and took him to a doctor. The doctor gave him a code red designation and sent him to the ER. In the ER they ran some tests. His heart checked out. However, his liver results were not good. Then my friend heard a doctor say to a nurse, this guy has no insurance. He will cost us money. We need to get him out of here.

The nurse came, took out his IV and told him to leave. She gave him no papers saying what tests had been run, or that any tests had been run. She gave him nothing. Weak, ill and now very ashamed, my friend left.

The same Tea/GOP pervs who do not want the "average" citizen to have Health Insurance" will still get VIP treatment regardless, so what's the bitch?

Why are they complaining?

I went to the emergency room last week

after they performed an "emergency walletdectomy" on me - a procedure whereby your wallet is opened and examined and any cash or credit cards are removed - I was able to get treated

robbopaloobop

I went to the emergency room last week

after they performed an "emergency walletdectomy" on me - a procedure whereby your wallet is opened and examined and any cash or credit cards are removed - I was able to get treated#1.29- Fri Sep 30, 2011 3:23 PM EDT

robbopaloobop

Let me guess, what was the "first" question that you were asked;

...not what sent you to the ER or what was hurting you...but "What is your insurance?"

I think people's biggest funk with the public ER is the wait time. Sorry but the ER isnt like going to the fast food restaurant and getting served immediately. Everyone wants to be serve first and fast and take off. Yeah waiting sucks but so what? You get seen eventually.

In response to the Canadian story...as others have said, that kind of stuff happens here every day to people who have private insurance. I doubt the story is even true.

Are you aware that if you are in need of an organ transplant, they are going to give the organ to the person who is has a better chance of survival. If there is only one heart and a long list of people who need it, they're going to give it where it will do the most good. It will go to a younger person who doesn't smoke before it would go to an 80-year-old who has other health issues, smokes 2 packs a day and would not be likely to live more than six months after the transplant. Those kind of decisions have to be made when resources are scarce.

Insurance companies are NOT short on resources, as far as money is concerned, but they make decisions every day to deny care to those who've paid their premiums just so they can boost their profits and please their shareholders.

Are you aware that in THIS country, before health reform, a child could be dropped from a family's private insurance for having an MRI? Happened to me.

Are you aware that in THIS country, before health reform, a child could become uninsurable for having one seizure? Or for having a sore throat? Both happened to me. Not kidding.

Are you aware that in THIS country, if your child ever had physical therapy for pain in her knee, that you can't buy new insurance for her unless the policy excludes both knees - for anything that could possibly happen to her knees, including just tripping and falling down the stairs. If she broke her arm and cracked a knee in that accident, only treatment of her arm would be covered. That happened to me.

I could go on and on about how the private insurance, for which I pay premiums out of my own pocket, has grossly rationed care. As long as it's all about the money, it's all about the money.

Iria - don't expect any national health insurance plan to reduce wait times or improve healthcare services.

Money, power and privilidge will always play a part in faster ER service.

hatsumomo

I think people's biggest funk with the public ER is the wait time. Sorry but the ER isnt like going to the fast food restaurant and getting served immediately. Everyone wants to be serve first and fast and take off. Yeah waiting sucks but so what? You get seen eventually.#1.31- Fri Sep 30, 2011 5:19 PM EDT

hatsumomo,

You have missed the point and the serious premise of the article.

We should try to erect the best society that we can build.

The article is clear: Income, wealth and influence determines how fast a sick patient is seen in the ER. These 3 "commodities" - income, wealth and influence - also determine how rapidly a doctor and or nurse will give health care to sick and ill people.

Based on wealth, dispensing health care - is an ugly fact of life.

Sick people who are not dripping in cash should not have to endure longer and potentially deadly ER hospital waits.

The "selective" selection of treating wealthier patients before other ill people is immoral.

Whatever happened to medical "Triage?"

I am a Canadian who lived in the US for 4 years. I used to work for a doctor (and was responsible for his billing) and have a brother who is in his medical clerkship. Based on experience I can tell you that the Canadian government doesn't decide who gets what care on an individual basis - doctors do. So I can safely say that there is a strong, untruthful, bias to the "baby Joseph" story.

The doctor I worked for decided on the best channel for patient care, provided it, then billed the province. That's not to say doctors are not held accountable - billing is reviewed AFTER THE FACT, and many doctors are investigated and charged with billing for care not provided. They may be fined, lose licenses or even go to jail for doing so. This I know, because at one point the doctor I worked for sat on the government panel responsible for this investigation. The difference here, that people used to the selfishness and exploitation that runs rampant in the US for-profit system may not understand or believe, is that the Canadian government gives their doctors oversight but also a certain level of trust that they will do the right thing - and the vast majority do.

Also being a Canadian who has lived in the US, I can tell you all that one of the reasons I am now back in Canada is that I can go to my family doctor when I need to. For a non-urgent matter, i might have to wait - sometimes even 2 whole days... But in the US I sometimes had to wait weeks and even borrow money to be able to afford to pay for a doctor's visit. Yes, there are waiting lists for specialists and surgeries - these are also triaged and if you have an urgent matter you will be seen ahead of the list.

People can, and will, come up with "evidence" of anything they want you to believe. People who benefit from the for-profit medical system in the US will keep coming up with these scare tactics - not because they are true, but because a universal healthcare system would take away practices that - very lucratively - line their pockets.

Frankly, I'd take the Canadian system any day of the week.

This is funny. I guarantee the people who want universal healthcare also DO NOT want to pay for it. Sorry, there is no such thing as having your cake and eating it too.

As far as Canadian healthcare system goes...it has it's flaws as well; however, it the system is much friendlier to the regular lay person. But we should keep in mind that choice is far more limited within that system.

Instead of complaining that taxes are too high, we should probably be complaining about what we get for the taxes we pay. I'd much prefer universal healthcare and and education through graduate school than high tech fighter planes and submarines we are unlikely to actually use. A healthier and better educated society would be nice...for a change.

Exactly, and it happens in ANY kind of job. Got a friend who works at a movie theater, you see free movies. Food Joint? Free, extra or discounted food. My wife's a nurse, and your right, VIPs usually are a pain. This is nothing new.

dr. j,

Your last sentence is a wee bit self-serving, don't you think?

thepirates,

Yes, that happens in all sorts of businesses but this article is not talking about those that provide non-essential services or goodies such as movies or fast food. It's about a living human being and there is NOTHING more important then that, as I am sure the good doctor above would agree.

Example: Two people with broken arms go to an emergency room. One is an "important" person and the other is Joe Ordinary. Mr. Important is in pain but so is Mr. Ordinary. The good doctor would know that both injuries are not life threatening but would perhaps give Mr. Important pain meds to make him "comfortable" while Mr. Ordinary sits in the ER waiting room without any medication because his injury is not life threatening but suffering none the less. Mr. Important is comfortable while Mr. Ordinary is in pain. Good medical care? Not even close.

It should be considered medical malpractice and pursued as such.

one of many times that i had to go the E.R. i had to go to the er forshort breath &dizziness black outs on my feet,well they made me wait 9 hrs while countless people passed me over. ifinally went home.the next morning i went back they remembered me because one nurse was working a double.they did an ekg and i wason my way to an angiagram and finally to a quadruple bypass.ihad no clue icould have died, luckily i didn't.

I was sent from my primary MDs office to our local suburban ER with cardiac symptoms, was triaged, and sent back to the crowded waiting room.

About a half hour later family brought in an elderly man who had a fainting episode. But he was now alert and walking. He was rushed into a treatment room while about 30 of his closest relatives flooded into the ER. The veiled women shrieking and the men loudly conversing on their phones.

He was the father of one of the MDs connected to the hospital. I returned to my own physician's office where she arranged for a direct admission for me, thereby bypassing the ER.

Coincidentally, I was an employee at the hospital.

Every time I have had to go to the ER I have been treated quickly and professionally, and I am not a VIP. I do have good insurance (maybe that helps?!)

Maybe our local hospital is an anomaly or maybe I just go in at the "right" times. I am not sure.

I do know from friends that work in ERs that one of the biggest problems ERs have is with people using the ER as their "family doctor" and coming in for every little ache, pain, and boo boo. In short, they have learned that they will not be denied service so the ER becomes their "doctor". This clogs the system for those with true emergencies.

I do know from friends that work in ERs that one of the biggest problems ERs have is with people using the ER as their "family doctor" and coming in for every little ache, pain, and boo boo.

Because of you don't have insurance that's the only "family doctor" they've got.

And I'm sure an indigent family without insurance is eminently qualified to know which "every little ache, pain, and boo boo" is serious.

bruce, doesn't having insurance qualify one to be like a VIP?

Severed - I would think that even an indigent family could discern between something being serious or not.

Of course they can, having received the extensive, government funded medical training needed to differentiate between a stroke and a migraine. And it goes without saying, the government-provided CT scanners, defibrillators, ventilators and antibiotics to diagnose and treat themselves. This is, after all, a utopia for the indigent, is it not?

My parents were hospital administrators when I was growing up. I was always sent to the head of the line when I turned up at the ER with a sprained ankle or other minor issue.

DR. JAMES BRITENBURG

I'm sorry, but I think that practice is reprehensible. I recall as a young resident being asked to drop what I was doing with a homeless drunk to rush over to suture the gash in the head of a county judge--who fell because he was drunk. Neither patient's condition was life threatening, but Mr. Homeless was a bit more acute. I refused to abandon my stinky smelly patient. I know this happens on a daily basis, but I'll repeat this practice is wrong, and your position is really indefensible.

I am a recently retired nurse,and I remember a few times when I would be told that my next admission was a "VIP".

I always answered "ALL of my patients are VIP's."

MarineDoc: I've seen some excellent posts by you but come on. If you are or were a military doc and working an ED I doubt you would stay with a grunt who was injured instead of going to the aid of a General or a visiting Senator. I'm not saying you would drop what you were doing if a patient was sick unto death but if a VIP came in with slightly lessor injuries and the grunt was not going to die you would be expected to drop what you were doing in those circumstances. I can remember being told where I was supposed to be during a visit by the POTUS while working an ED. There are some VIPs that people expect you to give special treatment regardless of the circumstances. I realize that "Whatsoever you do to the least of these..." ought to apply but there just are way to many people out there who think that they and their friends are just too important to wait and they will make you suffer if you don't give them the attention they think they deserve. It's not right necessarily, but it is the way of the world.

After reading my comments, what on earth would make you think I'd leave a Lance Corporal for a General? Are you joking? I barely respected rank when I was in, titles of Senator and General certainly don't impress me in the hospital.

The only person I would consider treating first if they were gravely ill is the President of the United States--because his loss would have a great effect on this country and the World (any POTUS).

If you just wanted to call me a liar, you could have typed fewer words.

Like I said, you have made excellent points. I'm certainly not calling you a liar. Take it easy.

If you are or were a military doc and working an ED I doubt you would stay with a grunt who was injured instead of going to the aid of a General or a visiting Senator

I'm not upset, just wondering how you came to the above conclusion after all I've written would suggest otherwise.

Just where did you post that you were a military doc AND working an ED? You said you were in training

I believe I said WHEN I was a resident. Never said anything about being a military-doctor, nor did I say I work IN and emergency department. Some types of physicians and surgeons come to the ED for consults and traumas.

What's your point anyway? I've already plainly stated that status doesn't enter the equation as far as I'm concerned.

Well, keep in mind the article states some of these people are VIP status because they donate 100k or more yearly to the hospitals. You bet its going to make a difference! When you factor in the people who go to the ER for minor issues typically don have health insurance and are most likely not going to pay their bill. So they are still going to receive care, because hospitals have to care for EVERY SINGLE person who walks through their doors. And those bills they leave behind still needs to be paid, regardless of where the money is coming from, taxes or donations. So in short, yes you better believe they are paying it forward when they give special status to money donors when that money can just as easily go to another charity!

Preferential treatment is not "paying it forward". But this type of mentality and treatment for the 'haves' v the 'have nots' has been going on for centuries. This bit about "all men are created equal" was a nice ideology when the country was founded, but not a reality in practice.

It tells a lot about where our level of humanity is at today, when the value of ones life is measured by the amount of money or insurance they have.

Only in america - I have found that healthcare professionals in my neck of the woods are caring. Then again, I live in an area with 3 hospitals, numerous clinics and a population of under 100,000.

Shocking I know.

Doctors are people who take an oath, the story isn't that they "are people too" but that they break the solemn oath they took by favoring the people "with" over the people "without". If this were a story about them being people, there wouldn't have been a majority of them refusing to do their sworn duty. See, as a cook I have the option of doing an excellent job for all I cook for and if I choose to make exceptions, I at least haven't taken an "oath" not to make those exceptions.

So, in closing: it's the saying one thing and doing another that is the problem, it's the "becoming a doctor so you can have rich friends & lots of cash" instead of "becoming a doctor to save the lives and/or limbs of people in their most vulnerable hour". If you want to become a doctor for cash, cars, broads, drugs, wealthy friends, cause daddy wants you to be or associated glory, maybe it's not a good fit for you. Become a "financial Advisor" if you want to leach off of others' misfortune or judge people by their wallets, less schooling involved and you don't take an oath.

Very true.

When a member of my family is in the hospital, I always say "Don't tell the staff that I am a nurse."

It changes things: the staff is always on their guard, thinking that I am judging what they do.

Agree.......we supposedly left the crown for this very thing.

I am not sure by your post what it is exactly that makes you "sick."

Are you saying that a person who has worked hard all his or her life, who has earned money, should be giving that money away? Taxes aside, shouldn't that be an individual decision?

It is my opinion that if a person decides to contribute their money to what they deem a worthy cause they should do so and keep their mouths shut. I see too many, in my town, and across America who grand-stand their gifts, many with strings attached. The new wing on the hospital has a persons name on it? Yes, many do as they seek some sort of immortality in that. Then there are the ones who feel a need to call their press agent before they gift away a million or so. This was seen following Katrina big time by many Hollywooders. The idea, I feel, is to do your good deeds, to follow your heart, and be quiet about it. Here again, I strongly feel that the tax-deduction be elliminated. Why should a person who gives away a million bucks be allowed to write that off on their federal income tax returns? That is wrong and unfair.

There seems to be a growing sentiment in our country that people of wealth have no right to their money; that they should share it with all of the other people. Again, that should be left up to the individual. It is none of my business how another person chooses to spend their money. The way our taxes are money is already being redistributed.

I suspect that you are out there working hard every day but Sunday. You may have already amassed a fortune, it is not my business. If we can say to ourselves that what we have earned we have earned by hard work, in honest ways, without taking advantage of others, then that is the American way. That there is so much corruption, lies and deceit, and a "damn the rest attitude," is a reflection of serious moral and value changes in our society. There lies the rub.

Hospitals; one that heads the list year after year as being the very best is Johns Hopkins in Baltimore, Maryland. Why it does is beyond me. There; one can get a double room, a private room, or for a few thousand more a night a suite of rooms with added nurses. The suites are very nice and they allow space and a bed should a loved one wish to stay the night with a patient. Are they the "royalty," the ones who have the money to pay for the hospital suites and choose to spend their money on them?

What are our choices on an air-plane? We can buy a seat in "coach," or spend a lot more and sit first-class, now called "business-class." I think Business-class is a more appropriate name. There, the company pays for the seat and writes it off on their taxes. I feel that is wrong, the tax deduction. However, if a private citizen chooses to pay much more for the added leg room, edible food, and service it is their money after all; no tax write-off.

Want to stay over in a hotel in NYC for the night? Many Americans cannot afford it at all. For others, they may find a room on 2nd and 21st, or the lower east side for a hundred or less if they are lucky. Many, who have the money, and are willing to part with it will choose the Waldorf or the Plaza. For many hundreds more there is a clean room. For many more hundreds one can get the Presidential Suite. Are they the "royalty?" It is their money is it not.

America is not a Socialistic country. There are many in Europe, especially the Nordic countries, that are. If you talk to most of the people in say Finland today they are mad as hell. They are mad that joined with 26 other countries to form the European Union, and madder yet that they have to bail out Greece and Portugal. There is a lesson to be learned going on in Europe today. A serious lesson that we should, I feel, all learn from. Watch and see how it plays out.

It is the FACT of life. With money and connections you will be treated as VIP.. In CHINA, CUBA etc....if you are a Communist Party memeber...you are a VIP..

MrCool: I can live without a hotel room on 21st, I cannot (you cannot, nobody can) live without health intervention in certain situations and we are NOT a strictly capitalist society. We are not strictly anything except exception. If some low people have learned how to game our American system must we become anti-American to thwart them? I think not....at least I hope not. America IS a "socialistic", and a "capitalistic" and a "democratic' and an egalitarianistic" and several other "istics" I won't list and while we can't be everything to everyone, we can aspire to be moral which means necessary things (medicine, communication, safety) must not be twisted by capitalistic (lack of) ideals. They must not unless we are to erase parts of our Constitution and Founding Documents. That would be very sad and very stupid of us simply so we can say we weren't "gamed" into giving equal health care to "some bum" over that wonderfully rich guy who (obviously) earned (inherited) his money from working (at a job his daddy got for him) and investing wisely (according to what J.P. Morgan, his daddy's friend, reccomended) his "whole" life. (he's 30).

I'm glad for those who have been fortunate EXCEPT for those people who don't tip, bemoan their tax bill and who pretend that being born who and where they are had nothing to do with their success. You are lucky more than anything. The successful OWE America for having created the opportunity, safe roads, large (but shrinking) Middle Class (union) customer base, well trained safety officers and beautiful landscape (GG bridge to Broadway, NYC) in which to get rich and act all high and damned mighty with daddy's checkbook. So stop whining and pay your taxes! Stop whining when the guy who built the Golden Gate needs end of life care cause the economy tanked and he lost the last of his savings, start thanking God that America has some SOCIALISTIC policies that take care of your elders so they don't have to live with you and your wifey and kids in their golden years! What's worse than a sore loser? A WINNER WHO ACTS LIKE HE'S THE WHOLE TEAM, made it all happen for himself (there are none of those, BTW) and whines that his tax bill is 350thou when his yearly take home $1,500,000.

well of course :)

A for profit medical operation, go figure.

Why do we depend on "charity from donors" for hospitals anyway.....healthcare is a necessity for everyone not just some.

Forcing others to provide healthcare is not a solution to any problem.

Because Kathryn, your federal government - the world's largest insurance company - insists on paying hospitals, at best, 60% of what it costs to take care of Medicare patients and 30% of what it costs to care for Medicaid patients. Not charges but actual cost. The portion that is not paid for by the federal rip off artists is shifted to the private insurance companies that everyone hates or funded directly by the hospital. Every hospital in this country (yes, even those awful for-profit hospitals) provides millions of dollar in uncompensated care. That is why we rely on donations - which BTW those for-profit hospitals cannot accept.

Maybe we need to turn our attention to why healthcare is so expensive? Lets do an audit of the entire system, doctors, hospitals and insurance companies.......see why an aspirin cost 10.00 in a hospital and a trip to the ER for an X-ray of a broken ankle cost 2700.00..maybe an audit would help

An excellent idea. We do need to pay a lot of attention to why healthcare is so expensive and why we don't get nearly the quality we should for the money we spend. I have no argument with that.

Let's look at why medicla is so expensive:

1) Doctors run many tests and do extra items (that cost extra) just in case they are sued to defend themselves.

2) Patients want the latest and greatest treatment and medicine. The medicines, created 10 years ago will still work, but many patients want the one they saw on tv. Let's end the advertisement of medicine.

3) Patiens who do not pay the bill. Some are unable other choose not to pay, we all pay for it.

4) People wasting our medical resources by going to the hosiptal for minor illnesses.

5) People not taking care of themselves by eating right and moving more. (I am one of these)

What are possible solutions:

1) Make all insurance plans 80/20 plans. So that the person pay 20% of the cost. They will realize that healthcare is not free.

2) Remove the employer for the process. Employers started to provide healthcare due to governmental restraints on raises.

excellent post rick, right on the money

I would put #5 as one of the highest reasons.

#5 followed by #3. Well said Rick.

Eat right, exercise, get sick and die anyway

BJ - you wacky optimist.

5) People not taking care of themselves by eating right and moving more. (I am one of these)

Yet when Michelle Obama takes on obesity, healthy eating and exercise, the teapubs bitch and moan at a fever pitch.

Rick - I agree with your list, except I'd really like to know who thinks health care is free? I've never met anyone or read a post from anyone who thinks healthcare is or should be free. Even the most lefty flaming liberal understands that universal care, public option, medicare for all, or whatever system has been discussed is not free. No one is asking for free health care.

Private health insurance, like any insurance, operates on a "socialist" model. The system is set up so that every customer pays into the system, and only those in need, take from the system. In that regard, if you have private insurance, and don't have any medical bills in a given year, you are paying other customer's medical bills. You are also paying the insurance company to run their business, add to their profits, and pay their shareholders.

No matter what insurance you buy, privately through premiums, or publicly through taxes, you are always paying for other people's medical care, unless you are the one sick or injured, and actually receive more benefits than what you paid into the system.

That's just how it works. There is nothing wrong with that, except when private insurance takes your premiums, then doesn't want to pay your medical bills. They'll take $300 to $1,000 a month from you in premiums, depending on where you live, and still make you pay the first $1000 to $10,000 in medical bill before they start paying a percentage.

As for your #4 - people going to the hospital for minor issues. That's because the system has failed. If there were more affordable private clinics, or taxpayer supported clinics available, people would go to those. Doctors and walk-in clinics to not have to treat people who don't have insurance or can't afford to pay the whole bill up front. The only option to some people is the ER, which is a terrible option for everyone.

I disagree with you. Health care should be free. Since when does wanting to live come with a price tag? Since when is man measured by how much money he has in the bank? I'm sure you and others believe that people don't 'deserve' health care because they can't afford it. And you can continue to believe that, but I won't. And there's really not much anyone can say or do to change that. Sorry.

The rich will live, the poor will die. History repeats itself. But we all deserve to live. We all deserve to get help when we get sick or injured. Take down the rose colored glasses of money, and look around. We are all equal.

Dave, How?

How what?

How can healthcare be free?

We pay taxes on just about everything. Yet as a country, we have no problem giving money to other countries, funding wars, bailing out banks.. the list goes on. But yet we have no way of funding a competent health care system for everyone.

The money is there. Just not what the powers that be, want it to go to.

Why should I pay again, to fund a health care system that is bloated? Why do doctors feel they deserve to be paid well beyond what is reasonable? Where hospitals feel that they need to charge absurd charges for something that actually costs a fraction of what it is? Well, let me tell you what that it is. It's called greed.

The health care industry had put themselves on a pedestal. They feel they are worth gold. Many would disagree.

Health care is never really 'free', but I've paid my part. I pay taxes every year. I consume goods that carry a tax. I want what I paid for. I look forward to the collapse of the health care industry. Maybe when that happens, they'll be a little bit more humble.

And since you have Doc in your name, I'm assuming you're a doctor and won't agree. I'm willing to bet you'll come up with something to justify why. But to the average person, we don't buy it. Stop kidding yourself.

Dave,

Well first I'd like for you not to jump to conclusions about what I believe...since up to this point I haven't made statements for or against yours.

You are writing about access to healthcare, but your previous statement said FREE. These are not the same things, and that's the point I'm trying to get you to realize.

Personally, I believe Healthcare is a right and that everyone from the drug addicted and schizophrenic homeless man to the people in Oprah's tax bracket should have access to the same top-notch healthcare. But...you know I'm a doctor--I probably won't agree with you..right?

However, it can never be "free". Some entity will have to pay for supplies, equipment, providers, electricity etc. Even if we decided to go to a national health system, funds would still be finite.

By the way how much do you think a person who has the skill to do a heart-lung transplant should be paid? I mean I don't see you getting up in arms about how much some 23 year old kid who can barely sign his name in cursive should be paid for catching a football....

So give me a number. How about a guy with the skill and knowledge to remove that cancerous growth from your brain? Put your kid on ECMO after he aspirates meconium before exiting the birth canal? Transplant another persons HAND onto your stump (good friend of mine did that recently)....build you a new bladder? Resuscitate you after a major trauma? Take care of your mothers diabetes year after year even when she refuses to lose weight, change her diet and exercise? What's all that worth in 2011 dollars?

What's your job? How much is what you do worth? Do you deserve a raise or a pay cut?

Just asking? And don't assume what someone thinks. Thanks.

Just because of the fact that you're in the medical industry, makes your argument biased and invalid in my opinion. The problems lie within the medical industry, and you're right in with them.

You obviously wouldn't be having a problem affording or obtaining medical care. And just because you believe that everyone from the homeless to Oprah should have health care, doesn't make it so. In reality, the ones that can't afford it, are unable to get care.

Your intentions maybe be good, sir. But frankly you can't do much about it either.

Why should health care be free any more than any other necessity of life? I need shelter, clothing, and food, too, but I don't expect the government to provide those for me.

Just because of the fact that you're in the medical industry, makes your argument biased and invalid in my opinion

Dave,

That's an idiotic statement. That's like saying just because you have a penis that you are biased towards rapists. Just because you are white you would be biased on any jury with a white defendant. Should I continue?

What are you going to kick down my door and demand a free appendectomy at 3am (do watch out for the dog...).

But, sir, you have not answered my questions. What is your occupation, and why do you deserve the pay that you "earn"? Funny thing about that word..."earn", it apparently doesn't apply to me or my colleagues who work 70-80 hours a week caring for sick people and on occasion saving their lives. Why is that?

Dave, would it be fair to just write you off as a mouthy crank who has nothing to contribute? I really don't want to go away thinking such things, so give me something that disproves that conclusion. I asked you a simple question...I even sort of agreed with you in principle that everyone should have access, but you seem resolved to be angry, which solves nothing.

And tell me how much a physician should earn relative to say an auto mechanic, small businessman etc. Help me out.

Doc, I think the problem lies with your question: why does your job/pay get compared to someone else's job/pay before you feel fairly compensated? Did you become a doctor to save people's lives and help others in their times of sickness because you dream of being able to do that or so you can brag about your checkbook, or do something you consider better than other peoples' professions, or to make your father happy?

The anger is a response to smugness in my humble opinion, as you seem to think that all have access to medical school and only CHOOSE to be mechanics with lower pay than doctors. But we return to the question of "why did you become a doctor, was it to satisfy a desire to work long hours in a high-stress situation? Run a restaurant kitchen if that's what you're after. Or, was it to have or clain to have a right to high pay? Or, was it to save the life and health of fellow humans?

Just asking.

BTW: I'm the one who runs the kitchen but I have to FIGHT to afford insurance and the reason I "Chose" that career is b/c it provided a means for me to move my parents/ brothers and I out of our car, off of the streets and into an apartment after I turned sixteen. School had to be secondary to surviving, I'm afraid and I lost my acceptance letter to Harvard Pre-Med, so that was my only other option just in case you try to grill me like you did "angry" Dave.

Fully,

What exactly is your point? Did you NOT READ that I am in favor of providing THE SAME HIGH QUALITY medical care for every person in this country regardless of income? And that's what alot of us are working toward and advocating. Or were you just blinded by the word "doctor"?

I guess it's fair game to question how much a physicians hard work is worth, but not the guy who makes my dinner? What if I walked up to you and complained that you made too much money and that your hours of hard labor wasn't worth what you were being paid?

Is that question offensive to you? Well guess what...it's offensive to me too.

I didn't become a physician to have ungrateful @!$%#s question how hard I work, when I'm putting in 70-80 hours a week every week trying to keep people alive, after 15 years of training and school and a 6 figure debt. I'm also a bit tired of people whining that "doctors make too much", when they wouldn't DARE say the same thing to anyone else.

If you really want to know why I became a physician (and remain a physician) have visit to your local inner city trauma center on a Friday or Saturday night.

You chose your career, I chose mine. I've been on my own since the day I graduated high school. Parents never paid dollar one for me or my education after that day...that was financed by the GI Bill and through working 2-3 jobs at a time through undergrad and working in a research lab for two years during my first 2 years of med school for luxuries like...food and rent. Save me your sob story my family has been homeless and on food stamps too. You made your choices, I made mine. Don't ever in your life question how hard I worked to get where I am.

If an elctrician worked an eighty hour week at $25.00/hour and was paid time an a half for overtime he would make $125,000 a year with 2 weeks unpaid vacation and would not even have to have a college degree. I'd say that a starting GP who takes call every other or every third night and works a clinic and hospital ought to expect at least twice that much in compensation, even more for a heart surgeon or neurosurgeon who does not start into practice until he's in his mid to late 30's. The expectations by the public and the stress of the job certainly should be taken into account. An electrician that makes a mistake kills or cripples himself but a doctor that makes a mistake kills or cripples someone else...and believe it or not, doctors and nurses that see a bad outcome do suffer and grieve. I'm not sure I've ever seen a compassionate act by a mechanical engineer but I see them on a daily basis from doctors and nurses. It's not just the pay that makes people go into the medical profession. Now the government and private insurers have tacked on hours of unnecessary paper work just to see if they can catch a few crooks that the keystone cops should be able to catch blindfolded.

How exactly does national healthcare fix this problem? Doctors and nurses will still be implementing this care and was noted before, doctors are people too.

Like the UK (who killed my late wife by their inattentiveness [brain & bone cancer]). You have to be joking.

US health care saved my daughters life, the UK said its just a migrate for 8 years, here they investigated, she had a cyst in her purity gland resulting in brain surgery, her ex UK Dr said that wasn't possible. (until I sent the records)

Kathryn, I am an ex Brit, I have seen both systems, believe me neither is perfect, but the UK system of avoid treatment unless there is no other way is not the way to go.

National healthcare would bring regulation to the healthcare industry. As it is now if you have money you get to live and if you don't , pain pills till you die. don't even try to say it is not true.

You are not a Brit, just another apologist for the outrageous profits being scammed by the insurance industry........I can tell you of the same behavior by private doctor's and hospitals right here in the U.S.

No I am not a subject of the crown any more ( no such thing as a British citizen) I have my US citizenship and I am damn proud of it.

You sound so bitter, angry & depressed, maybe you should see a doctor.

Now that is quite funny.....easier said than done.

Kathryn, Healthcare is already the most heavily regulated industry in the country other than the nuclear power industry. In EVERY country that has a national healthcare system there is a secondary system of better care for those with money. I'm so sorry that power, influence and money (of which you seem to have none) gets you stuff. Welcome to the real world.

kathryn,

joemike's post is exactly right. There is a secondary system in the UK

In addition, you think if the queen mum walked into the ER she would wait even 2 minutes?? Yeah, right...

National Healthcare? How will that lower the cost or improve the care?

The only way it will lower costs Rick is if we do what the other countries with national healthcare do - ration care. But Kathryn doesn't want that to happen either.

The Queen Mum is dead Eric. If she walked into an ER she would have to be a zombie.

men,

really? who cares. Im an american. My point is still valid

The only way it will lower costs Rick is if we do what the other countries with national healthcare do - ration care. But Kathryn doesn't want that to happen either.

It's already rationed here by the insurance companies.

I've lived in the UK as well, and got wonderful care. I'll take a national system where everybody is covered and it costs half as much any day.

i think that for the average person the average level of care there is good. But if you need an expensive surgery, or prosthesis, or pacemaker, your chances are not as good as they are here

You could also go private there, we didn't but I know it was around. Everything medical was much cheaper, and prescriptions for kids were free. It really is better not having to worry about going bankrupt if you get sick. And if you want fast, pay for private. Most conditions are treated on a needs basis, hence the wait.

Kathryn,

Three of my mother's sisters have had breast cancer. Two were on the verge of bankruptcy before they were diagnosed. The other is far from rich.

All three received treatment and survived.

Phil,

Sorry to hear of the loss of your wife, but I'm glad your daughter was diagnosed and treated.

We have all witnessed this.........makes me sick too. We have allowed this to happen in this country to the extent that money can now buy you a Representative, a Senator or indeed even a President.......not exactly what the founders had in mind.

Reality sucks, doesn't it. Grow up.

The founders were the elite Kathryn. If you and Jefferson, Washington and Revere walked into the ER who would get treated first? Not you! Of course that is hypothetical because if Washington, Jefferson and Revere walked anywhere they would have to be zombies.

...or ghosts.

LOL

Exactly, those who have access just don't get it and don't want to see it. Access is the problem.......try getting an appointment without insurance...won't happen.

Nor should it. You have to pay for things in life including medical care. Why should people like me that pay let someone who doesn't pay go ahead of the line? This is not anything new. You know you need insurance. Only you stop yourself from getting it. I don't want to hear excuses for not going along with the program.

Wow. Just how do some people sleep at night?

People use ER's because no regular doctor will see them......

They will if you pay them

That is what we are discussing Phil.........access.

Even if you have money to pay a doctor they will not see you without insurance...and here is why.....if they find you need more treatment than you can pay for it puts them on the spot. Makes them look bad......go home and die if you can't pay for the treatment you need?

Phil-673730 - Why should I pay for healhcare? It should be free, but that would mean taking from the doctor or from someone else by force.

I know this will come as a shock to some people, but there are uninsured Americans out there who can't afford health insurance..The company they work for doesn't provide it, barely making enough to make ends meet as it is...

Not to mention the uninsured who can't get insured because of pre-existing conditions.

Being uninsured and needing to meet with a doctor right away can cost $200+ upfront just to be seen, doesn't include the cost of any procedure they might do while you're there..And guess what? Sometimes, when you're tight on money, that $200 isn't there. It's gone to the electric bill, or the gas bill, or food, or any combination of things that "had to be taken care of" to benefit your family.

So you go to the ER if you've gotten sick enough. There (at least the ER around here) they can work out a payment plan for you to pay back after you've gotten the care you need.

I've just spoken from personal experience. My husband and I have finally gotten to a place where we can afford a very simple family plan. But I know there are hardworking families who have been in the same situation as us. It sucks.

But, that's life. End rant.

I live in a state where 50% of our business's do not even offer insurance to the employee's.......at any cost. So they are left to buy their own at more than they even earn in a month or go to the state for medicaid........which means they can't even own a home or a car........or go without and show up at the ER....god, you people seem to think everyone is like you.

Kathryn, you seem to make up a lot of excuses. If it's that bad where you live....MOVE. Go where employment is better. Not everywhere in the US is hurting and jobless.

RicK; Why should I pay for healhcare? It should be free, but that would mean taking from the doctor or from someone else by force.

So do you honestly believe its free?

Ask why the Brits pay 20% sales tax. It may be free at point of service, but believe me you pay.

As to the second part of you sentence this is why most ER's, med centers clinics have armed guards to stop idiots like you. I know your an idiot because of the first part of your sentence.

Right Lisa, that is just SO EASY TO DO - MOVE?!

Low income people HAVE NO MONEY! What may seem so obvious and simple to you ISN'T for them!

Wow. I sure hope you never lose your job and everything you own. You're actually closer to doing just that than you realize.

Thanks for your concern BJ, but I have planned and saved for rainy days. I'm pretty sure I'll be ok. I don't make excuses like many on here. There is always a way to figure out how to take care of your own business.

The reason low income people HAVE NO MONEY is they are lazy and not willing to put in the time and effort to support themselves and their families.

dem's fightin' werds thar Lisa. watch out

Phil-673730 - I was being sarcastic. Nothing the government does is free. Someone pay for it.

Jesus Lisa! You obviously judge from a pedestal. Thank goodness you are not sick, hurting or jobless...but any of those things can happen suddenly to ANY of US. I am one of the lucky who is healthy and has insurance but I am not blind to the real problems on the ground for a large percentage of my fellow citizens.

Why should the public always "just accept" injustice or be blamed by a system they have no control over? I often hear sociopathic statements like yours that demand "just move then" or go get "a different job". So, you know enough about these situations to offer such simplistic advice? Gee, I am sure the thought hadn't occurred to her! Yet, what happens to the new state with better healthcare laws people like her move to? You think that won't overload the system if a bunch of people move there, while at the same time businesses move to the more lax state? This eventually lowers the ability of access to care. You need to look up the term the Fallacy of Composition.

The insurance industry spends upwards of 35 cents for every dollar they receive (from their customers who pay their premiums) NOT giving care. There is a lot of lobbying, advertising and corner office bonuses padded in that 35 cents. Businesses that don't offer insurance while others do are free riders and lower the bar that leads to states like Kathryn's where only half provide healthcare insurance for their employees. That number is most likely to go lower than 50% with the way our system is currently run.

When you see sick, desperate people waiting in animal stalls in the pouring rain just to get basic care (like a former health insurance VIP saw), maybe you LIsa and the other high horse posters here that thinks that's why America is the shining city on the hill, will see the real tarnish of our broken system and that your fellow citizens are suffering needlessly in the richest country on earth.

To those who throw up the tired "socialism" and "we don't want a UK system" smokescreen, well we certainly don't need to replicate other countries systems--but my goodness, there are enough proven examples in the world where we can take parts that are working and create our own hybrid that works more for the citizens, the doctors and the taxpayers than this broken system we have. Where is the ingenuity in this country and the will to actually solve problems? We have become a sheep herd that just accepts that they will be herded.

Here is a insurance VIP that did see people waiting in animal stalls and it changed him so now he is a key crusader instead of an enabler.

My links aren't working apparently, but I was referring to Wendell Potter. Look him up to be enlightened.

OMFG Lisa. You really do not get it. The reason people have no money is because they are LAZY?!

Tell that to those working MULTIPLE JOBS just to break even that they are lazy.

Wow. What a cold hearted B*TCH you are.

Lisa,

I've seen patients whose "rainy day" savings (and then some) were wiped out in a matter of months because of needed medical treatment, so try not to be so smug. How hard one works has little correlation to how much money one has or makes.

Wonder how many cures are setting in vaults somewhere to protect the profits of useless, painful, prolonged, expensive treatments?

Probably many cures will never come out of this country but the Genie will be let out of the Bottle in a country that actually puts people over profits.

Yes, because I'm sure no pharmaceutical company could make money selling a cure for cancer or heart disease. Nobody cares enough to live to actually PAY for that. Good grief.

Bottom line a cure for cancer ends a revenue stream of treatments that are ongoing and costly a cure would be permanent and far less expensive so big pharma would LOSE money by the pile. A basic understanding of this is not rocket science.

How much would you pay for a one-time cure for cancer? I'd be willing to pay a LOT, if it were me or my loved one afflicted.

There is no cure for cancer because there are many different cancers, with many different causes. Some are lifestyle-related, and curing and keeping cancer cured depends on the patient changing their lifestyle. Ever seen someone with COPD or lung cancer puffing away because they just can't give up the smokes, even though they know it is killing them? I have. I also knew a girl (early 20'2) who had a pretty large chunk of her calf surgically removed to treat skin cancer, but she still went to the tanning bed. This defies a single "magic bullet".

Same with heart disease. Obesity, poor diet, and plain old laziness are major contributing causes. Drugs can't make you choose fruit instead of cake, or get off your ass and go for a walk.

An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure, but it's not the pharmaceutical companies' fault that we don't change our behavior accordingly.

And, BTW, often cancer IS cured. But what cures one cancer won't necessarily cure another.

We force everyone to pay for a lot of things in this country...why is healthcare an exception or better yet why should it be?

For many reasons. 1) The US Constution does not give that power to the federal government. 2) It is not right to take something from others that is not yours

Why is healthcare an exception? It it not an exception. The others are. The federal governement was set up to do what for the states and people that they could not do themselves. The main items were treaties with other countries and national defense. Healthcare is something that the people can do for themselves. There will be times that the individual can not do it themselves. That is when family, community, local and state governemnts should help.

Our hopital system is not perfect, but it is very good. Hospitals will provide any needed care that someone needs. I know that you will create some examples where a hospital said no. But that is the exception.

Taking by force from others to pay for care of an individual is not right. You might want to set up a chairty to collect money form those who want to give for this cause. Let me know and I will give by choice, but you should not be able to force people/

Depending on which of the system you are on bucko. I don'twant to pay for war machines either but I don't get that choice......or public schools, or roads, or oil tax credits......I DON'T HAVE THAT CHOICE....now say again how the government does not have the power to do that.

Kathryn, its not an exception. Every two weeks they take medicare taxes out of my salary. That's me paying for someone else's healthcare. I pay insurance premiums and don't use nearly what I pay. That's me paying for someone else's healthcare. I would agree with Rick. Healthcare is a necessity, but not a right. Food is a necessity, but not a right. Water is a necessity, but not a right. Your employer doesn't provide you with food insurance. Trust me, you'll die a lot faster without food than most of us will without healthcare.

Kathryn: What are these oil tax credits the you mention? There are not oil tax credits in the tax code. They have revenue and they have expenses just like every other business. Notheing special for oil, may be special loans for solar.

Public schools are local issues and need to improve if we want to solve any other issue we have. As for roads, there is a user tax on gasoline, so those who use them pay for the majority of them (at least in my state). Did you know that the Federal Governemnt and the State govenment earn more per gallon of gas than the oil company?

Okay, Rick, I have to step in. Please provide proof that the fed and state earn more than the oil companies per gallon. Here is what the gas taxes are:

Interesting that gas taxes have remained pretty consistent compared to the incredible price spike of oil in the past decade. When oil companies are making record profits besting the previous year, then it is a pretty weak argument to say that the government earns more. Commodities speculators are making more. By the way, the fed and state don't "earn" taxes, since it goes back into the roads as you noted.

Oil companies and other extraction industries also get sweetheart deals on PUBLIC lands for drilling and favorable profit sharing rights.

Oil tax credits are a subsidy due to profits they get to take back. They fought pretty hard for this status quo given their record profits.

As for healthcare, this taking by force claim is nonsense. It is part of a social contract we all have in this country. Something about the general welfare in your beloved Constitution. That document also said to "provide for the common defense" not unprovoked invasions of other countries, continue bases across the world and munitions that can blow the world up several times. Yet, that money is taken from me by "force" and has overstepped the framer's intention while creating more deficit spending than healthcare. Constitution is a living document, hence why there are such things as "amendments. The framer's knew they weren't going to be able to predict all the needs of the people in generations to come--especially a for-profit system that is unattainable for many of the citizens. It was also a document stating certain rights for it's citizens while many owned slaves, so that may not be the perfect example in every case.

Still having problems with links!

sry man but this is truly an american site.... you have to be a "VIP" to post links here. great post though.

sry but this is america and we have the right to speak any language we choose... something about freedoms and what not, plus there are states that have other languages as well as english listed as their state languages for example the state i am from lists english/spanish as our official languages, there are other states that lists english/french as theirs.

You are part of the problem with that attitude......saying "we" implies you are part of the have's and not the have nots......don't have a clue do you.

Kathryn, Citizen sounds like he/she works in an ED. They know what they are saying.

everybody else should be required to get a job and start making a contribution

Good idea! Wish it were possible. So your solution is to let 'em die?

No Severed, not to let them die. But, requiring someone to make a contribution to the state of their own life is not unreasonable. There are jobs out there....the problem is that they are service industry jobs that are not very appealing to most people. If you choose not to educate yourself....and it is a choice in the US with student grants and loans available....then who do you blame but yourself when you have to work a crappy service job? Many people don't want to do this so end up on Medicaid even though they are able to work. Why should people who choose the work be paying the bill for those who choose not to?