I hear they are going to clone Bachmann....... :-S

Why would you clone a thoughtless, hate spewing robot? You could just build one using parts in a junk yard.

God creates dinosaurs, God destroys dinosaurs.
God creates man, man destroys God, man creates dinosaurs.
Dinosaurs eat man...

Women inherit the earth.

Ahhhh @!$%#.

:) Nice!

Solutions539,

"By the way part of him is a stem cell clone."

Are you suggesting that Perry has 69 chromosomes? That might explain a lot of his abnormal behavior.

Let's put it this way. Perry may be anti-science, but you can be damned sure he's thankful that his doctors aren't.

123

Just about every one of those questions could be answered after taking an AP course in a high school. But maybe you should complete elementary school first.

Mike you are so brainwashed I don't think it would even be possible to get through to you, so I won't answer all of your 37 questions. I will, however, as an atheist tell you that we don't know the answer to all the mysteries of the universe. However, neither do we claim that there is a supernatural being that watches over us. One of thousands of gods from all the religions of the world, none of whom are capable, to our knowledge, of being proven false.

Honestly, there are an uncountable number of sources that have actual facts that discredit many parts of your one and only source: A many thousand year old bible. Which is pretty weird, since it is all supposed to be true and all. You claim there is no way you can be wrong, or at least you talk like it, which is stupid considering what I just said in my first sentence of this paragraph.

I'm not even going to check over what I just wrote, your not worth it.

Observer_1 We are a equal opportunity society and women taste better,so too bad,they get eaten too!!

Well, atheist you are according to the Bible you so distain are a fool. "The fool says in his heart there is no God." Psalms 14:1 You will find out someday that God is as real as you are when you stand before Him on Judgement Day. By then it will too late. You'll probably think I am brainwashed too like Mike is. That doesn't matter. What matters is where each of will spend eternity once we leave this earth. I would not want to go where you're going.

"Honestly, there are an uncountable number of sources that have actual facts that discredit many parts of your one and only source: A many thousand year old bible. Which is pretty weird, since it is all supposed to be true and all. You claim there is no way you can be wrong"

Anybody can be wrong if Albert Einstein's E = mc² is wrong. Yes even "god-isn't-real" could be wrong along with any of the uncountable number of sources you speak of. Do you claim that there is no way you could be wrong? You believe what you believe. Just because you don't agree with someones beliefs does not necessarily mean that they are wrong either.

Just a thought for the both of you.

I was replying and this stupid site auto updated, so annoying. Rather than type all of that again, let me say this. I agree with everything you said. I know that I could be wrong. However, I would rather go with the more logical explanation. That's my short answer anyway. Everyone has the right to their opinion, obviously.

@Linda -agreed!

@childlikeheart

I dislike spam posting, so this will be my last comment unless someone responds to me. My question for you is this: Do you agree with Linda because you think the same way, or only because her message is religious in nature? I think I know the answer, but I just want to hear from you.

that is the principle difference between a scientist and a religious person: a scientist lives in constant expectation of being proven wrong by new data and new observations...a religious person believes that they cannot be proven wrong, no matter what facts reality throws their way. The religious have already made up their mind and try desperately to twist their ever more unnecessary dogma to fit the facts. or vice versa. best thing about science really...it constantly learns from its mistakes.

This old argument again... Can some one explain to me why science and religion have to contradict each other? I mean, I have my own ideas why people do this, but it seems everyone just assumes that the two must always be at odds and start arguing without thinking about it.

To me, they never have been and never will be at odds. Mind you I'm talking about religion in the basic, concept kind of way, not to be confused with organized religous groups that simply do whatever they feel like. Why, if God is omnipotent, does it bother people that science makes a few discoveries about the way life actually works here and there? Will he be 'fooled' by mere mortals? Will everything you know come crashing down because science can show how the world around us works? And supposing one day science comes to a point where we know just about all we can about everything around us, and there are no 'unknown causes' to natural phenomena- will that make a bit of difference as to whether or not there is a god? Is God simply a last resort, a 'miscellaneous' bin where we put things we don't understand?

The point I am trying to make is that science and spirituality (maybe thats a better word) lie in two separate realms. Science can't prove or disprove anything spiritual (review scientific method), and the point of religion is not to explain anything scientific (yes, some have tried to do this, but they miss the point). Religion explains the who and why of life- who we are in a greater perspective, who organized all this, and why we are here. Science explains the how, when, and what- how do things happen around us, when did the earth form, and what are the building blocks for life as we know it.

They take two different perspectives on life, and shouldn't get in each others way. Putting them at odds is a false dicotomy, it would be like someone telling you that a tennis ball is yellow and you responding "no its not, it's fuzzy." Two different aspects that do not come at odds. Hopefully some of you understand what I mean, it's a bit hard to put this in words without getting very long-winded. Please just take a moment to consider if there is even an argument to begin with before spouting off over what could be nothing and insulting others along the way. I for one am happy that this discovery could help lead to happier and healthier lives one day.

I would rather go with what I fell inside and with what I know to be true.

If I'm wrong, then I won't know.

If your wrong, you will.

In my heart I know God is real, just as he is real in the hearts of a vast majority of this world's population. You get that many people to believe in aliens (space) then I might start to believe in the little green man from Mars, well may be. Theory of selective evolution has you believe that out of the billions and billions if not trillions of species that have inhabited this earth that there is only one species has evolved into an intelligent species as man has. Now wheres the selective. God created man in his own image. Now tell me what other species are creating new life forms, besides God.

again, just a thought.

mnm45

The reason why scientists continually disagree with fundamentalist religious views is that scientists seek truth, gather facts to answer their questions, develop hypotheses, test their ideas by continuing to question and gather information, subject their ideas to expert review and, finally, develop theories - theories that will be continued to be be tested and revised as new information emerges.

Religious fundamentalists begin with what they assert is the truth, often something that was written several thousand years ago by someone about whom they know nothing, not even the author's name. They further assert that this "truth" was either written by god or inspired by god and that facts are not necessary - only faith is necessary in order to believe. Facts that refute their version of the "truth" are discarded and isolated facts that seem to support their point of view are trumpeted as ultimate proof of their position.

In summary, religious fundamentalism is the opposite of science because while scientists begin with questions in order to solve the mysteries of the Universe, fundamentalists begin with the answer, no matter how unbelievable that answer may be.

Scientists know why they believe what they believe. Fundamentalists must be told what to believe, and the consequences of not believing is Hell. It must me Hell to be a fundamentalist.

Scientists are generally not anti-religion and most are not atheists, but most scientists resent being told they are wrong by someone who doesn't have a clue what they are talking about.

Mnm45 Right on I agree

mnm45 and don97524, best posts of the night. How it should be, and how it is.

Well put mnm45

If I'm wrong, then I won't know

Ignorance is bliss.

I would rather go with what I fell inside and with what I know to be true.

The only reason you feel that way is because someone told you that you should feel that way.

If I'm wrong, then I won't know.

If your wrong, you will.

Essentially this is the old fall-back of religionists trying to convince others and themselves to believe in what they believe. It actually has a name: "Pascal's Wager" - essentially it says "Believe, just in case"

It's fallacious because if one were to believe just in case they are wrong - they would have to believe in all the gods and religions despite their incongruence. Since so many claim to be the "Absolute Truth" - which one is right? Which one is Spartacus? It's far more likely that they are all wrong.

What if you are wrong and the Muslims are right? What if you are worshipping a man who was just a prophet with a cult of personality? The same argument can be used for you...

If you are wrong, you will know. Your religion and its punishments for non-believers is not the only religion with punishments for non-believers. Your religion has zero, nada, nill legitimacy over any other religion - if you think it does, I'd like to hear the argument.

mnm- AGREE!!! I think that the story of creation in the bible is just an extremely simplified version of evolution, which could be understood by people at the time it was written. Who the heck ever said that a day to God was the same length of time as a day to us?

Inmissouri

The Bible does not have any version of evolution whatsoever, simplified or otherwise. I am familiar with both the Bible and the Theory of Evolution and I state without qualification that the Bible story has nothing whatsoever to do with evolution. For example, the Bible says that all animal life was created on the same day; evolution belief is that all life stems from single-celled organisms that have been traced back to at least 2.7 billions years ago and that life continues to evolve at the present time. Evolution theory credits no "creator". The authors of the Bible knew nothing about evolution and the idea that they could have written a "simplified version" is preposterous.

Funny how it isnt meddling when it comes to you going to the doctor, then taking medicines to change the course of the sickness 'god' gave you.

How about a child that will die without the therapy derived from this research, you are murdering that child.

Yeah... that danged Louis Pasteur shoulda dun been hanged!

I would "pray" every day, if such a silly superstition as god existed, that
christians would stop meddling in Science, something they know nothing about,
and which happens to be the one true "god" of the universe.

So I take it you live in the woods, without electricity or running water, and use ashes from your fireplace for soap?

Wait - you're posting on the internet? That means you are using technology that is going against God's will! If you did believe in living as God intended you to live, you'd be naked in a house made of mud or wood. And don't you go to the grocery store, because all that food as been improved from science, which is the devil. So I hope you're growing your own food and hunting for your own meat. I also hope you never visit the doctor or take prescription medicine, because that also is going against God's will for you to die from something as silly as the common cold.

'God' gave people the gift of thought, rationing, curiosity and logic. People are capable of thinking and discovering new things! The horror of science!!

"How about a child that will die without the therapy derived from this research, you are murdering that child."

there have been much greater strides in adult stem cells either the cells themselves or being reprogrammed and then being giving to the patient. some good stuff on Ted.com about some research going on with reprogramming stem cells.

just saying embryonic stem cells haven't made much of anything in terms of progress when compared to adult stem cells. or at least not that i am aware of.

Stop meddling in god's work.... you mean like cancer, diabetes and other horrible illnesses. Of yes, how DARE we humans try to alter those things.

And no single cell, or grouping of even 10,000 cells, is anything even close to a human. My tonsils have more cells, differentiation, and complexity than a blastocyst.

Religious people are crazy.

I will pray for you Chuck. And always capitalize God

Vivian... If you believe in God/Jesus do you believe that it man's responsibility to alleviate suffering where and when possible? Do you believe that it is OK to harm/kill abortion doctors if it saves the lives of unborn children?

The hypocrisy of the religious right is without limit. It is OK to incite violence against doctors who are abortion providers but it is unconscionable for those who wish to use science to help future generations by utilizing stem cell research/science.

Bambi, I loves me some ted.com. And i know what your saying, i was just trying to point out the hypocrisy of a bundle of cell's 'life' being more important than a living breathing child.

There are many different religions and belief systems. The word god, at least how I use it, is a common noun as it refers to a class of entities, namely fictional beings worshiped by the weak-minded. Thus not capitalizing it is proper English.

All I see is arrogance, you will all understand one day, I pray you come to peace with Jesus before you die.

Vivian, all I see is arrogance. I hope you come to peace with Zeus before you die.

Actually I don't give a sh!t what you think, just don't try to change the laws of our secular nation based upon your religion.

It's ok, we all know your god is the biggest aboritionist of them all:

Exodus 21:22-23

If an attack on a woman causes a miscarriage the attacker must pay a fine. If he causes serious damage to the mother it's "an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth".... This indicates that a fetus does not have equal standing under God's law.

Leviticus 27:6

Monetary values are assigned to lives according to age and gender. Lives under one month old have no value.

Numbers 5:21-21, 27-28

A potion given to the Israelites by God is used to determine paternity. If the father is not the husband, an abortion occurs. god clearly places no value on a fetus that is not the result of union between husband and wife.

Genesis 38:24

God's law states that if a woman is pregnant and is to be executed there is to be no waiting for the fetus to be born. It is counted as part of the mother and she burned to death with it still in her womb.

@Vivian

I pray that god bless you with Smallpox, since you like God's work so much

Vivian,

Keep you bronze aged god out of science.

EngEsq,
Those who think they are so much more important than other living beings that it is ok to destroy potential human life to fix what disease they have are worse than selfish. Back to animal mentality, preservation of the strongest. Too bad we can't apply that to survivial of the most intelligent and compassionate. Cannibals thought that too when they killed thier neighbors for food.

No wonder liberals work so hard to deny any God exists. If they believe in any greater being they can't consider themselves the most rightous and infallible on the planet.

Shaking my head-2479300

Anyone who puts the well being of 10 undifferentiated cells ahead of a 12 year old girl needs their head examined. You are morally insane.

@ Vivian,

Given that you have a problem with prolonging human life, I hope you don't make a hypocrite of yourself and have not and will not receive stem-cell treatment for any cancer that you might get.

After all, it's God's plan to take you by malignant and metastasizing mammary or colon tissue, or perhaps a staph infection, which you SHOULDN'T take antibiotics for, after all, God made staph in his Garden of Eden too, and as good human pets, we named it. If God deems that staph should live and thrive in you, who are you to kill one of God's creatures!

Personally, I'm going to make use of modern medicine and innovations. These practices are ethical and being monitored, and whether you like it or not, progress is going to eventually make use of these factors of life, whether you and your ilk try to legislate against it in the US.

But I will be extremely unhappy if you ever make use of any of these innovations for yourself, or that you don't give a huge amount of grief and endlessly lecture a family member over their arrogance at trying to prolong their life by way of an innovation that came from the research being conducted as we speak!

Vivian, - And always capitalize God

Ummm.....why?

Your imaginary friend doesn't warrant a special status here, and is no different from the thousands of other gods which you presumably don't believe in.

lol jk sry

My personal guess is Vivian is trolling, but if not - my apologies for not taking you seriously. (and I strongly disagree with your original post)

You mean like the cannibalistic tribe of pygmies in New Guinnea who ate a Baptist missionary and his family when they came to spread the word of God, thinking that God would protect them from danger? Those cannibals? Or the people of the infamous Donner party who were stranded in the cold and eventually turn cannibal on each other for survival (pretty much all of whom were Christian I might add)? Or are you talking about those cannibals who religiously think that by eating their enemies they will gain their enemy's strengths?

Different people, different motivations.

No wonder liberals work so hard to deny any God exists. If they believe in any greater being they can't consider themselves the most rightous and infallible on the planet.

You mean like Christians who think that they are God's choosen, and are absolutely right about absolutely everything, and that anyone who disagrees with them in even the slightest way will burn in Hell for all eternity? Those kind of "righteous" and "infallible" people? Because you with your God seem to get the idea that you are the most righteous and infallible people on the planet, and you flaunt your arrogant misplaced sense of superiority over anyone you can. Not denying the existance of God doesn't prevent people from thinking that they are infallible and righteous. Nor do all liberals deny the existance of God.

Besides you religious types have been holding back scientific progress for centuries. Imagine where we'd be now without people holding back our understanding of reality and how it works for religious and superstitious reasons? And no, it wouldn't be a world filled with atheist communist baby-eating cannibals. Though that is what you would like to think of us scientists as.

Vivian, did you even read the article? No innocent children were murdered for this research. Non-viable pseudo-embryos were created in the lab from eggs (UNFERTILIZED) and adult cells. These were NOT embryos that ever could have become people.

@ ManFromNantucket

Whenever God does something inconsistent of a benevolent, all-knowing, all-seeing, infinitely-loving super-deity...you just need to repeat after me

"The Lord™ works in mysterious ways"

Clearly God was concerned about the malnourished cannibals and sent for help straight away!

The ironic part is that the cannibals likely ate the missionaries because of a religious belief that the cannibals have as well.

Besides you religious types have been holding back scientific progress for centuries. Imagine where we'd be now without people holding back our understanding of reality and how it works for religious and superstitious reasons? And no, it wouldn't be a world filled with atheist communist baby-eating cannibals. Though that is what you would like to think of us scientists as.

It's amazing how long we were in the Dark Ages for. I bet that if it weren't for the Catholic Church in places like Spain, that country might have continued to be a super power all the way through the 20th century.

It's funny and scary to see the pattern in history of religious zealotry's ebb and flow corresponding with the rise of nations and their respective falls.

I believe in God. I am a part of the Christian faith. I am also a man of science. It is quite unfortunate that many Christians show blatant disregard for science and become alarmingly hypocritical on issues they don't comprehend. And rather than try to comprehend, they throw logic out the window and create an emotionally charged debate that we are somehow "playing God". No. We are simply chasing science that is simply over your head.

There are certainly ethical boundaries surrounding some scientific research. It is my opinion that current research has not yet crossed moral lines, rather it has given us a unique opportunity to greatly affect humankind in a positive way. I have yet to receive a logical explanation as to why discarding early embryonic cells is of greater utility than donating them to research; research that will save lives and alleviate suffering. This hypocrasy baffles me as a Christian, and infuriates me to see the preachy nature of the uneducated continue to give your religion, our religion, a bad name.

Silly people. Trying to discuss science, facts, and logic with a "believer" is utterly futile. Might as well try to convince a rock that it is water.

Thank you SH123.

Vivian's just trolling. She does this on a daily basis. Possibly because she has no life.

But I will be extremely unhappy if you ever make use of any of these innovations for yourself...

She will. It's called a death bed conversion.

Or maybe just a hospital bed conversion. People have no problem rejecting science until their child is dying on a hospital bed, and a doctor that does believe in science can save its life.

god is great, god is good, thats why he gave us boyz in da hood.

Hey all you Geniuses!You were once an embroyo like that also.Vivian is right.Put yourselves in those embryos place.Oh wait you can't because you geniuses believe they're not human beings.

So tell me all you knowledgeable know it alls,When does life actually begin?

Your thinking as it now stands is as antiquated as it comes.You're thinking is what excuse can I tell myself it's not human, that way I'll feel better about my opinion. What gives you people the right to be alive and not those embryos.They're human beings kiddies and no matter what the hell kind of excuses you make, you can not cover up that fact.No matter how the hell you dress it up.

What the HELL do you Geniuses think,that you change into a Human Being somewhere along the way during development?

Somebody mentioned Morals on here.I think you better redefine your definition of Morals sir or madam, because this subject doesn't cover it here.

I can tell you where the bible defines it: birth. Not conception, birth.

Which makes sense, when you think about it. These were primitive desert cave men from the Bronze Age. They didn't know where the sun went at night, much less where babies came from, so birth was clearly their only standard.

Hey all you Geniuses

Glad you capitalized "Geniuses" ... puts the conversation in perspective!

just saying embryonic stem cells haven't made much of anything in terms of progress when compared to adult stem cells. or at least not that i am aware of.

Ummmmmm.......actually - you're DEAD WRONG....and I'm NOT bringing religion into this either - it has NOTHING to do with religion....stem cells are marvelously advanced....particularly the Pluripotential Hemopoietic Stem Cell, (PHSC) - the precursor of ALL BLOOD CELLS. It has a marvelous ability to sustain life and keep ALL of your immune system in balance, just ask any bone marrow transplant recipient.

There is no finer double-edged sword - it has the ability to enrich a developing human being's life (even BEFORE birth)- or curse it later on down the road with Acute Myelogenous Leukemia or Multiple Myeloma. Everything hinges on the how the cell splits and how it's nuclear chromatin replacates!

³⁹And Mary arose in those days, and went into the hill country with haste, into a city of Juda;

⁴⁰And entered into the house of Zacharias, and saluted Elisabeth.

⁴¹And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:

⁴²And she spake out with a loud voice, and said, Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb.

Luke 1:39-42 KJV

I didn't get the memo that geniuses is a proper noun. Who is this Geniuses fellow? Where is all of Geniuses' presence?

So, I will address you as carefully and correctly that you addressed all of us [geniuses?]

Hey, all you gloria fabiaschi, don't you know that this is discarded tissue that is destined to nowhere else but into the garbage (or furnace if you will).

When does life actually begin? Before conception, both the sperm and the egg are living cells.

Does determining the point that life begins matter one bit in Roe v. Wade or this discussion? Nope. Roe v. Wade gives women the right to determine if they want to carry a baby to term as a matter of their right to privacy. As long as the cells are parasitic and rely entirely on the host for total sustenance, it should be the host's decision if they want to keep it.

Next, the tissues that are used for embryonic stemcell research are from donated tissue. This stuff was going to be disposed of no matter what if there aren't takers. There was no chance that those cells were ever going to get the opportunity to be anything more than blastulae at most anyway since they're held in cryonic freeze.

If you have a problem with this, I suggest that you start a campaign for you and other eligible recipients with your mindset to offer your respective reproductive systems to carry each of these cells to term.

Unless you plan on outlawing fertility treatments that revolve around causing the woman to rapidly ovulate (which causes the excess of eggs), I suggest you get cracking on getting your foundation setup.

Just so you don't make a hypocrite of yourself, as a concerned zealot, here's your to do list:

1. Give grief to anyone that utilizes IVF or similar fertility treatments because of how it creates an excess
2. Give grief to anyone, ESPECIALLY FAMILY for getting stemcell treatment to save their life
3. Don't get any treatment for yourself or dependents

Enjoy

gloria, you use the word genius too much, heard of a theasaurus? and no, thats not a dinosaur, its a book, made of pages, y'know... anyway. your comment:

"What the HELL do you Geniuses think,that you change into a Human Being somewhere along the way during development?"

what do you think? we change into a human being the moment the sperm enters the ovum? or how about the moment the penis enters the vagina? when? i sure dont know, but neither do you.

also gloria, theyre not "kiddies" the samples taken never would have come to term, btw, do you know how many potential kids YOUVE killed? every time youve menstruated, that was a possible "kiddie". with your logic, the only responsible thing to do, so as not to kill innocent "kiddies" would be to get pregnant, constantly. dont waste a single ovulating moment.

also... boo freaking hoo. noone cares what any of us think, and the only reason im writing this is because im right and am also sooooo bored.

btw, it has been established that "vivian" was trolling. your alone now gloria :)

@seriously As long as the child is parasitic and relies entirely on the host for sustenance, it should be the host's decision if they want to keep it.

At what age does a child no longer depend on others for life?

This is a very poor and controversial argument, as a lot of people rely on medicine and machines to keep them alive.

Are you then suggesting that it is alright to euthanize those whom we deem are parasites?

Who gets to make the decisions about who gets to live and who must die?

The mother gets to make the decision. Roe Vs. Wade was a long time ago and nobody cares if you think it's wrong. It's law.

Whoever the dim bulb is that first dragged stem cells into the abortion argument needs to be beaten. Sorry. A dozen cells is not a life. A dozen cells that were destined for the trash bin anyway because they were donated were never ever going to become a human being.

Disabled Voter:

At what age does a child no longer depend on others for life?

This is a very poor and controversial argument, as a lot of people rely on medicine and machines to keep them alive.

Are you then suggesting that it is alright to euthanize those whom we deem are parasites?

Who gets to make the decisions about who gets to live and who must die?

Thoughtful, original. Good post. Thanks.

At what age does a child no longer depend on others for life?

You are confusing the very specific scientific and clinical definition of 'parasitic' with the colloquial use of 'parasitic'....

People who don't understand science tend to do that a lot, with words like 'theory' and 'proof'.... I'm starting to wonder if it's truly ignorance (as I once thought) or if it's just spin in order to satiate cognitive dissonance with dishonesty.

Yet still, it's a good question, because those who make the laws regarding such decisions tend to do the very same thing.

Ugh, so now I'm going to have to undergo expensive stemcell treatment to rid me of the carcinogenic effects from inhaling the crap because of someone else's insatiable addiction?

Why don't they just go with injectables like the heroin addicts?

/end rant

//hopes that smokeless cigarettes take-off amongst the smoking masses so we can all be amongst each other and not breathe as much pollution.

GO SCIENCE!!!

Pretty soon (10+ years) we'll be able to do with embryonic stem cells what we can already do with non-embryonic stem cells, plus with the added benefit of higher cost and greater risk of side-effects!

Sometimes scientific research could really benefit from some good old-fashioned engineering know-how (aka common sense).

Not ok Smith. The IPS stem cells you are talking about come with the inherent risk of cancer, since you can't make them effectively without messing around with myc. Whatever you've read in the news, it has nothing to do with what we are reading in the primary literature. If you trust physicists enough when it comes tracking asteroids and you trust chemists enough to synthesize the right drug, let the biologists do their work and know you can't be helpful in this case.

Besides, never mind the medical potentials, this is also about understanding how biologist works at the early stages of life. We can't learn that elsewhere now can we?

Creepy that they're creating something that gets to the stage where it can be called an embryo. Wonder why they don't do more with umbilical cord blood stem cells- a lot easier to get than human eggs!

UofC Student

Whoaaa...language!! What's all this PG (post-grad) talk? You need to keep it rated G(ED) around here!

All those words like "myc" might get some kid turned on (to science) and the next thing you know they are on the internet surfing for more.

:)

Seriously? No...Really?!

Ugh, so now I'm going to have to undergo expensive stemcell treatment to rid me of the carcinogenic effects from inhaling the crap because of someone else's insatiable addiction?

Why don't they just go with injectables like the heroin addicts?

/end rant

//hopes that smokeless cigarettes take-off amongst the smoking masses so we can all be amongst each other and not breathe as much pollution.

And I hope someday you stop using vehicular transportation. All that pollution you are causing is making me sick. With you're insatiable addiction to laziness I'm going to have to undergo expensive stemcell treatment.

@ Jaiden-27

hehehehe ^_^ Did I hit a nerve?

Sorry I treaded on your addiction and false sense of entitlement.

I'm sorry that your cancer-spreading habit has inconvenienced you from being able to smoke in restaurants and bars or outside in many different municipalities.

While driving does end up causing both pollution and the occasional fatality.

My driving hasn't killed/injured anyone and it doesn't increase anyone's chances of cancer, not my family's, not my children's, not the random person standing next to me.

Here's the kicker, your addiction does. Every time.

Feel free to continue to kill yourself slowly, I'd just prefer not to partake in the same slow, expensive suicide that you do.

Now, in all seriousness, do us all a favor, smoke away from anyone if you insist on using incendiary cigarettes.

no nerve was hit, im good. thanks for looking out for me though ;)

just thought it odd you were QQ-ing about tobacco smoke when you yourself alone are doin FAAAAAR more damage to the earth then the entirety of the smoking population, IN HISTORY. but do keep up with your delusional ideas of me killing myself, (i dont smoke). ;))))

just for:Smog is a type of air pollution; the word "smog" is a portmanteau of smoke and fog. Modern smog is a type of air pollution derived from vehicular emission from internal combustion engines and industrial fumes that react in the atmosphere with sunlight to form secondary pollutants that also combine with the priSmog is a serious problem in many cities and continues to harm human health.^[4] Ground-level ozone, sulfur dioxide, nitrogen dioxide and carbon monoxide are especially harmful for senior citizens, children, and people with heart and lung conditions such as emphysema, bronchitis, and asthma.^[5] It can inflame breathing passages, decrease the lungs' working capacity, cause shortness of breath, pain when inhaling deeply, wheezing, and coughing. It can cause eye and nose irritation and it dries out the protective membranes of the nose and throat and interferes with the body's ability to fight infection, increasing susceptibility to illness. Hospital admissions and respiratory deaths often increase during periods when ozone levels are high.^[6]mary emissions to form photochemical smog.

Seriously,

You're just a hater.

@ Jaiden-27

I owe you an apology

Man, I was in a bad mood yesterday and I totally went ape over the boards and vented on you and probably a number of others elsewhere in the vines.

You're my first apology of the day

sorry for trolling on that topic and going all crazy on you.

Best Regards,

Seriously

Wow, you don't see an apology every day, online or on the street. It's too bad that it's so rare. Very nice to see.

^_^

Trying to make the internet a friendlier place, one person at a time...starting with myself

Today is your lucky day!!!

I was just checking my e-mail on Yahoo, and I saw HUNDREDS of companys that do this!!

Actually they have. Just a couple of years ago some researchers at Wake Forest University used stem cells to regrow the damaged penis of a rabbit. Look it up.

Once applied to humans its just a short step to increasing length and girth.

Okay, I can't believe I just seriously answered that one.

All you need to do is clam your penis in a vice every night and hang the vice off the side of the bed when you go to sleep. Give it a few months and viola your penis will stretch like Stretch Armstrong. Honest! Give it a try!

Once applied to humans its just a short step to increasing length and girth

Unfortunately in this age of pharma - that might be the only way for them to get continued funding.

So they’re making more conservatives?

You do realize that many of the greatest scientific (including medical) minds in America today (not to mention in history around the world) are Christians, right? Better to pray to a real God that the ignorant stay out of science: the gears of the universe (keep looking for the designer, He's there).

What I'm waiting for are the hypocritical politicians that fought bitterly against public funding of stemcell research under Bush end up either needing it themselves, or for a close loved one.

The thing that amazes me most is just how ridiculously sociopathic most politicians and religious fundamentalists are. They both like to paint things in over-simplified black-and-white terms, can't see from anyone else's perspective, and are always happy to deny other people freedoms that have no affect on them, yet are completely surprised and outraged when the same thing befalls them.

Considering the delicious hypocrisy of people like Larry Craig and soon Bachman's husband, I wonder how many other skeletons are hiding in their closet (including them in some instances).

^_^

They can be christians all they want to, does not me they are not incorrect when it comes to theistic theories.

I have to side with Mr. Smith on this one. Take for example Dr. Francis Collins, the head of the Human Genome Project and the author of "The Language of God". He provides a rather compelling argument in the first chapter for the plausibility of the existence of a god entity, though his subsequent arguments have many flaws based on assumptions and double standards.

Keep in mind though, that just because a god entity may exist, it does not mean that the Christians or anyone else are at all right about it. Most of the assertions of the religious and superstitious people are based on speculation, and therefore cannot be trusted. However, that most of humanity in one form or another have independantly asserted that there exists one or more gods without communicating with each other. Also there are an extremely rare number of observed and documented events attributed to one or more of these entities, for which there is no readily available mundane explanation and have not been debunked (important caviat there). This suggests that human beings may have observed some phenomenon of reality which they do not yet understand. This begs the question, "what exactly is a god?" I for one do not think that the answer lies in religion or in holy texts. Explanations for why we choose to believe in the existence of a god and worship it have been offered up in brain chemistry, but they do not address certain rare externally observed phenomenon that were observed and well documented by multiple people (as referred to above).

This begs the question, "what exactly is a god?"

I think it begs the question what exactly isn't a god?

And in my opinion, god is NOT some personal god, up in heaven, looking down on this infinitesimal spec of cosmic dust in an otherwise infinite (certainly infinite as far as we humans are concerned) universe, and knowing what's in our heart of hearts, and listening to our prayers, and intervening in our day to day lives, and counting the fall of every sparrow.

And god certainly is NOT some angry, retributive, vane, spiteful being that commands that we praise his name or else we'll be damned forever in a lake of fire.

If there is any god in the universe, it is no more aware of us as individuals than I am of a particular amoeba swimming in a far off lake in a distant land.

That means jesus is nothing more than a false, dead hoax.

No way Chuck, god is the omniverse itself. Every potential for every cell that has ever been has its own universe. You're very important to an infinite number of gods, and completely unimportant and an infinite number of other gods.

@ Chuck-1551465

If Jesus ever actually existed

He was just a philosopher that was fed up with religious institutions designed to enrich the wealthy and control the masses (sound familiar?). Ends up going too high profile and gets offed by his competitors.

Jesus's disciples, the Church, and the Council of Nicea turned Jesus into comic book super hero:

JESUS™

miracle worker, demigod, divine-spawn, war-drummer, marketing mastermind and all around sacred cash cow.

Jesus and Confucius' musings have a lot in common, except Confucius lacked the marketing team to reinvent him as a deity like Muhammad and Siddhartha

God exists and Jesus is real. He is alive and will be returning to this earth soon. He will gather up all of us who believe and obeyed his commandments. Then it will literally hell on earth. Read the Book of Revelation. Jesus said it will be so bad that if those had not been shortened no flesh will live.

@ Linda Levin

^_^ May the force be with you

Linda, some of us know the truth, others will figure it out the hard way. Let them scoff and make fun. God bless you, Linda.

wow, linda levin. no one's ever said anything like that before..../sarcasm writ huge.

and your grammar is atrocious, by the way. just thought you should at least cloak your inconsequential babblings in something resembling an education before you tap them out onto your keyboard.

That day is actually coming sooner than we think. I personally know that an incredible interpretation of the human condition that utilizes science to explain the meaning of all life, is about to poke it's head above the surface. And it's not 42, lol. It's truly fascinating, and I think it could seriously change the way people view everything. The author uses science and the world around us to prove a "god" of some sort; although, back to the poster that asked what a god is exactly... I am not sure what he presents would be technically considered a "god", but it certainly is a very convincing answer, and it is honestly the most fascinating thing I have ever heard. And not a drop of dogma or superstition, or even metaphysics. It's actually so amazing it's slightly frightening. I am bound to secrecy because of my profession, but I know that it is coming next year. Possibly some publishers 2012 marketing scheme, but it has nothing to do with that nonsense, or maybe it does abstractly. Out of anything I have ever read in my life, that includes everything from the Bible, to the Dancing Wu Li Masters; nothing has literally blown me away like this work. Sorry, I don't know the title, or even the author, just that it is being talked about by people in the book biz. So maybe my post is pointless, but this book seriously gives me hope for the world, and I only read a synapses that an agent friend of mine had. There is some kind of bidding war over it.

C. Smith
You do realize that many of the greatest scientific (including medical) minds in America today (not to mention in history around the world) are Christians, right? Better to pray to a real God that the ignorant stay out of science: the gears of the universe (keep looking for the designer, He's there).

Wrong! Historically Christianity put science about a thousand years or more back. Christianity has always been, and is, an anathema to scientific progress.

Even today men and women of science cringe when Jesus is even mentioned!!

God exists and Jesus is real. He is alive and will be returning to this earth soon. He will gather up all of us who believe and obeyed his commandments. Then it will literally hell on earth. Read the Book of Revelation. Jesus said it will be so bad that if those had not been shortened no flesh will live.

Linda, I hope you understand and take this to heart - since it is very very important.

Telling a non-Christian to read the Bible in order to support your claims is like a kid telling you to read Adventure Comics to support his claim that Superman is real. Or a Muslim citing the Koran to convince you that God spoke to Mohammed. Makes no sense, right?

You should reference the Bible in theological and sometimes historical arguments, but in no way is it a legitimate or even mildly convincing reference for claims of Jesus' divinity, God's existence, or the End-Times as written in the acid-trip Revelations.

It's circular logic..... (ie God is real - Because the Bible is God's word - Because God said so) - makes no sense whatsoever.

beautifully stated, shuklack.

@ Shuklack

Love that superman analogy! I will definitely save that one for later!

Anyway. There's nothing wrong with being religious. I think people should be allowed to maintain their own belief systems, no matter how ancient and superstitious.

I have a problem when people take those mental-gymnastics and start using them as a basis on which to propose and base legislation!

Vote and lobby based on sound reasoning. If you are incapable of supporting a stance with reputable and reproducible data, perhaps your stance is wrong. Constantly questioning one's direction and beliefs is critical to growing as a human being...whereas arbitrarily believing that the first conclusion one comes to is the right one is flawed and incredibly irrational.

Linda-

Are you serious???

And WTF does that drivel you posted have to do with stem cell research?

It's Alive, It's Alive! Ah ah ah ah ah ah ah ah ah . . . . . .

Cure_TypeI_Diabetes

End_Blindness

Science is already in clinical trials to cure certain types of blindness (Stargardt's and Macular Degeneration). A compnay called Advanced Cell Technology has developed retinal cells (derived from human embryonic stem cells) that are being transplanted into the eyes of patients suffering from this progressive form of blindness. By the way, the retinal cells they are using were derived from a process they have patented (Blastomere technique) that extracts a single stem cell from the embryo, without harming the embryo. So no "baby killing" or "murder" or "abortions" taking place with the science of this company.

FudgeFactor

Oh boy I hope this stem cell growth goes viral (pardon the pun). I would love to be cured of diabetes and have my eyesight improved too. Keep it going you mad scientists you.

If indeed you have diabetes, you don't have to wait for the end result of this research. Therapy is available as of now. Type II is a piece of cake (Sorry wrong word), Type I will take more work.

[Hint: Your doctor may not know all...think out side the box, do your research. Most of all keep your blood glucose under tight but safe control. Not easy but can be done...and will save you from all those 'fears' you mention. Best of luck, effort, and science...Allah willing! ]

If you had read the article carefully, you would realize they are doing exactly as you suggest. This research is not about saving anyone at all. It's about taking the long road and doing the hard work to figure out why past therapies haven't been effective. This science is about asking basic questions about biological processes, not creating medicines.

"EASY FIXES"?

Researchers usually work long and hard for years before treatments or cures are discovered.

Science does not believe in "easy fixes."

You go, Kyle!!!

Do you believe in Vishnu, Thor, Zeus and Quetzalcoatl? If not, why not? Aren't you worried that you might have picked the wrong imaginary friend?

Which of the 1500 gods throughout history are we applying Pascal's Wager to?

Yeah, what if you're wrong too and you end up in Tartarus, or Nephilheim, or you get reincarnated as a worm?

Thomas Jefferson put it best:

"Religions are all alike - founded upon fables and mythologies."

Um no DEAD WRONG!You're taking those stem cells from another human being and then destroying that human being.At what expense.So now were going to start developing embryos,which by the way are human beings, just for the sake of another Human Being.Bluntly?Kill one for the sake of the other.What the Hell do you think an embryo is a Gold Fish?

Sorry won't and can't bye it.Embryos are human beings.If it walks like a duck talks like a duck it's a Duck!

It's not so much the religion thing, It's called Human Rights!Destroying one human beings rights for the sake of the other.

Gloria, not everyone confuses a blastocyst with a person.

and the non sequitur award goes to....

gloria "not paying attention to the topic of this thread" fabiaschi.

and you're wrong. and woefully uneducated on this topic. and repetitive.

Embryos are human beings.If it walks like a duck talks like a duck it's a Duck!

This I agree with. What makes a human a human... brain size, self awareness, cognition, form? All of the above?! Well, an embryo has none of these traits. It isn't unltil 26 weeks that these traits begin looking vaguely "human" (i.e. response to pain, ability to respond to stimuli, so higher brain functions).

An embryo is as close to a duck, as a human at the stages we are discussing.

...you are in for a very nasty surprise when you die.

No: I believe that YOU may be in for a very nasty surprise.

Why do ultra-religious people have to be so arrogant?

it comes with the dogma, tina. try being told over and over again, every day from child on, that the supreme creator of the universe loves you personally, thinks you are a swell guy and is deeply interested and invested in how you go about your day to day activities. here that kind of crap about 50,000,000 times and you start to think pretty highly of yourself.

With a purposeful grimace and a terrible sound
He pulls the spitting high-tension wires down... Tokyo News 1946

Godzilla!

They aren't using dead babies. LEARN TO READ!

Really what are they then?What were you when you began?A gold fish?

No, Really they are importing them from Southeast Asia. They have an abundance of dead babies there. Not to worry though, no Christian babies were killed for this research.

gloria, yes, we werent actually any different from goldfish, just a mass of cells.

also, these test subjects were donated, and as such, were never going to be used to make a baby. its just like menstruation, only instead of wasting it by bleeding it out, they actualy make use of it.

we werent actually any different from goldfish, just a mass of cells.

When did you stop being a goldfish? Are you sure you were a goldfish and not just a frog? I'm still waiting for your cousins to catch up with you. When are the moneys going to evolve to human? How about the frogs; when are they going to evolve too? Should I mark it down on my calender? Oh wait; do they even sell calenders for the year 90000AD yet?

this is like watching retards kickbox....

@coldcrankcase That is NOT PC!!! But funny.

So, how ironic would it be if they started cloning religious extremests?

They HAVE to understand how things work before they can come up with therapies.

DUH!!!

Rafael Fernandez
No wonder why you are searching for intelligent life among the stars. Please don't tell me that you wasted your parents hard earned money learning that from some professor at college?

It's every human being's right to get their cures on the deaths of unborn children, correct?

After all, they are just unborn children and aren't really "human" (and never mind that people like you DEMAND that someone who murders a pregnant woman be charged with TWO homicides).

Why shouldn't people like you, who don't give a damn about the unborn, have EVERY right to murder anyone you want to get yourself cured?

CherylLM, suppose you are in a buring in-vitro lab and you have the opportunity to save a tray of 24 fertilized embryos, or one little 5 year old girl. Which would you save?

Remember, you have a tray of 24 innocent little (unborn) babies versus one little girl.

If you say anything other than you'd save the little girl, you are nothing but a ghastly monster.

(Duplicate post removed)

To everyone who values a mess of cells over an actual human being, I say "Bull@!$%#!"

...get their cures on the deaths of unborn children

What a moronic statement. Obviously you nor any member of your family have an incurable disease.

If "the deaths of unborn children" as you call it, can cure my son of diabetes, I say GOOD!!! Go for it!!!

So you want help but you don't want anyone to research ways to help? Good luck with that. Keep praying. THAT'S the real answer, of course.

I wonder how long, and how much government research was devoted to discovering, utilizing and synthesizing insulin.

but I guess if you're Type 1 diabetic, it must have all been a waste and we shouldn't have even bothered!

Let the private sector figure it out.

Wow, I'm sure that's doing a lot for my husband's crushed back. He'll be so happy to know that they can clone cells. I'm sure he'll just hop up and want to throw more BILLIONS of dollars at this research because cloning was the REAL answer, wasn't it?

Then have your husband get his spine fused with today's technology and quit whining. If you want cutting edge stuff that will make his quality of life better, I would think you'd have more sense to support pouring even greater funding into this R&D as opposed to less.

BTW, for almost 8 years, the government did not fund ANY sort of meaningful stemcell research...so I would suggest you correct your timeline giving that the previous Commander in Chief thought that that tissue was better served being thrown out than used to research ways to help people.

But that's what we get for electing a coke-addled, alcoholic, draft-dodging rich-man's son.

Saweet!

/man I'm moody today ^_^

Insulin as a treatment for diabetes was discovered by a Canadian. FYI.

No worries, I just said "government" research to be conveniently vague...I could have been referring to ANY government

^_^

Hear Hear!!!

Those who are so adamantly against stem cell research have obviously never watched young people die from diabetes, half their limbs amputated, blind, and on kidney dialysis.

I have. It isn't pretty.

By god, back in MY day, we had to walk 10 miles in the snow, uphill both ways, for our beer and cigarettes and paint chips.

They FED us paint chips, and we were glad to get them.

Unless you are an agronomist, you have little credibility.

Read up on plant hybrids before you spout off.

The hard facts tell another story. Embryonic stem cells are still unable to be used in humans because they have repeatedly caused cancerous tumors and other undesirable and abnormal cell growth in animal trials. Ironically, despite all the attention, embryonic stem-cell research has offered no treatments or cures; none — not even any clinical trials at this point.

By contrast, adult stem-cell research has proven extremely successful in treating over 70 illnesses to date, by using stem cells from umbilical cord blood, placenta, bone marrow, and a host of other cells obtained from living donors.

Well, first, there are currently human trials going on using embryonic stem cells as a treatment. Though, at the time this was published (2006), there wasn't human trials yet.

Second, and something that is very important to realize. Adult stem cells were discovered many years ago. Studying on these cells has been going on - uninterrupted - for approximately 60 years. Human embryonic stem cells were first suspected to exist in the 80s, but confirmed to exist in 1999. Study was interrupted on embryonic stem cells very early after they were isolated (in 2002). Essentially - ESCR SHOULD have less treatments at this point - they haven't had nearly equal study put into them.

The fact that human life begins at conception is no longer disputed.

This is also not an accurate statement.

In Missouri, a craftily worded state constitutional amendment will appear on this November's ballot. It removes decisions about ESCR from the oversight of the legislature and paves the way for tax dollars to be used for this unethical research. The referendum's language is deceptive, by claiming to “ban cloning.” Voters may not notice that the term cloning has been conveniently redefined. Claiming to seek permission only to allow Somatic Cell Nuclear Transfer (SCNT), the amendment insults informed Missourians who know that SCNT is simply the correct scientific term for cloning — the exact process used to clone Dolly the sheep. Six neighboring states and seven countries have banned this unethical research.

Well, technically there are two types of cloning: Organismal and cellular. SCNT can be used for either organismal or cellular cloning. Anyone with half a brain can realize that the above quoted statement is misleading.

The 21st century has already been christened “the biotech century.” We can anticipate rapid advances in science and medicine. But can ethics keep pace?

This is a fair question. Probably one of the first accurate statements in the article.

Maggie,

I don't happen to share your LCMS or Roman Catholic beliefs and dogma. Am I not free to support human embryonic stem cell research for all of the help that it promises mankind? I am certain that you know that China and maybe India are working on human embryonic stem cell research 24/7 and have a continuous supply of human embryos.

In view of the very promising possibilities in terms of medical science, relief from chronic pain, making total joint replacements almost totally obsolete, tissue regeneration ..........somebody else's view of what Chester the Molester Pope Benedict brays or what the LCMS position on this is worth less to me than a one sheet of used toilet paper from a tuberculosis ward in contrast with the positive possibilites that human embryonic stem cell research holds for mankind?

Also, in America and in the rest of the world money does not only talk...but it has the "last word?" Don't you Lutherans attemt to extract a tithe from your parishoners so they can be in good standing with the LCMS?

Whatever, neither the Chinese or the Indians are burdened by any Christian mind controlling guilt trips and are totally engaged with regard to doing positive things for humanity.......but not for humanity's sake, but for all of the $$$ that is in it for those that bring forth these good results.

With all do respect, I do not think that your church should have the right and under no conditions the ability to regulate what I think, what I do, or what I invest money into.

V/r,

LTC Rattus, USA, ret.

With all do respect, I do not think that your church should have the right and under no conditions the ability to regulate what I think, what I do, or what I invest money into.

EXACTLY! Well said!

To the one who invests their money.What a hell of a way to invest it.

Why don't you pray about your psychopathic daughter that you say lies all the time and not worry about what I invest in. I do not believe in your jesus. I am now retired from the Army and I don't have to "play that sh!T."

Beth,

You are most welcome and I thank you for the compliment. The Christian Fundamentalist have the very same mindset as the Taliban or the leaders of Iran but they do not have the ability yet to "inflict" their toxic faith onto innocent people or people that have no interest in that type of oppressive, mind controlling, money grubbing bs.

V/r,

LTC Rattus, USA, ret.

You are a person who only rants his hatred against certain religious groups, but you do not think of the ethical concerns with manipulating human "embryos", as the article clearly says. The Nazis certainly had no qualms about experimenting with human beings for the "benefit" of the German people, so you might feel some kind of kindred with them. "Ethics? Vat are dey, herr Ober?"

I believe as many do that human embryonic stem cell research is going to be very instumental in regard to helping mankind. Lots of experts do too because the Chinese and Indians are spending billions of $$ and have the best and the brightest working on this issue 24/7. Moreover, they would not be doing it unless they had a very good set of reasons to be certain that they are going to make megabucks by selling these medical miracles to those that can afford it.

There is not an effing thing that you or pope dumpledick can do about it. So ignore it or get used to it.

Why do you make innuendo to me being a nazi just because I There are no ethical considerations. The only considerations are helping humanity and if possible enriching yourself and your nation as part of that effort.

If a Soldier is kind enough to pay for an abortion for his consort in some third world repulblic is that a crime? I think that it is just good manners.

V/r,

LTC Rattus, USA, ret.

Georget

The colonel clearly distinguishes between "Christian" and "Christian Fundamentalist". To compare him to the Nazis is certainly beyond the pale and certainly beyond the TOS of this site.

Beth,

Thank you. "Christian Fundamentalist give Jesus a bad name." Christian Fundamentalists whether the be Rev. Ted Haggard or Pope Benedict drag the ministry of Jesus and his efforts to feed the hungry, clothe the poor, and bring social justice through "the mud and filth of an open sewer." They would impose their beliefs upon us in the USA "if they could." They are no better than the Taliban.

You're welcome.

LOL -- I suppose I should also point out that if he were REALLY trying to do the German thing -- you'd be Herr Oberstleutnant! So he couldn't even get THAT correct ... or maybe Frau! :)

Beth,

Your German is better than mine. I am a Mexican-American cradle Catholic still in my middle 40s. I attended Catholic Schools from K-12 before I got an appt. to USMA. I saw a lot of rotten things that were done by the Catholic Church and churches in general. I unfortunately boarded more Soldiers out of the Army because it was the opinion of Army neurologists, psychologists, and psychiatrists that they "had collectively been sexually and emotionally abused by clergy or had fanatical ideas relating associated with religion (either theirs or somebody elses) and as such were discharged from the Army and those discharges were usually medical in nature so these folks could get V.A. comp. if they wanted to avail themselves of it and to my knowledge all of them did. Moreover, in my own family there is a man that was abused by Catholic priests and unlike most got a very large sum of money. That was the case because he was the first and th archdiocese wanted to "shut him up." He did keep his promise for the money and STFU. However, his attys. did not and got into the catholic church for megabucks.

All of this together, and it is not all catholic, gave me a general feeling that led to a belief that I have that excessive religion is "dangerous to the health of the afflicted person with it and to those members of society that are either emotionally or physically near such a person suffering in such a way." I did not marry until I was 33 and by that time I had reached the point where I believed that the Abrahamic Religions: Judaism, Christianty, and Islam are all in their purest sense "bullies of the worst sort." Therefore, I wanted the bad luck cycle to stop with me. As a batallion cdr. I had to read the findings of the psychiatrists and psychologists and some of those clinical summaries that came with the MC 'letter to the commander" were so bad that once I had to vomit and twice I had tears in private because of otherwise Soldiers that could have been great were literally destroyed by, if you will, "toxic faith" and sexual molestation and emotional abuse at the hands of clergy. The Roman Catholic Church, of course was the worst, as it is the largest.

Thanks again,

Rat

Rat --

I wondered if you had served in Germany -- that's why I stuck that in there.

I too have seen the affects of religion in the military ... but from an enlisted perspective (and, admittedly many years ago). Something I found interesting, in another article posted the same time as this one, they talk about the Post 911 veterans and note that a higher percentage of them have "no religion".

I think I might be a bit more lenient on the religious than you -- I really don't care what people believe as long as they live their own lives that way and don't expect me to live mine their way -- or try to turn their religion into civil law. I'm a firm believer in the concept of "Separation of Church and State". I think it's one of the things that have made this country strong ... it allows for active participation from all our citizens.

It's fascinating how many people rail against "sharia law", yet try to get their own religious views passed as laws in this county, and don't see that as a parallel.

Beth,

After graduating from USMA in '89 I was home for a month helping dad fix and paint the outside of the house with some clothes that I bought at the Goodwill. I then went as scheduled to Infantry Officers' Basic at Ft. Benning, GA. Yes, I was posted to GE. I was in GE for less than three months before I rec'd. orders to return to CONUS in prep. for what would become Operation Desert Shield that evolved int Desert Storm. I will admit that I had a very bad experience with the Roman Catholic Church growing up in an Opus Dei household. I chose to attend a service academy for college because I was basically very unstructured in regard to being independent and I really wanted to get away from home. Fortunately, I had certain abilities in sports, student gov., and was in National Honor's Society all through high school. The U.S. Military, at least the Army and Air Force have come to grips and embraced the fact that since the advent of the all volunteer military that "there is a problem with fundamental Christian zealots in at least the Army and the Air Force." I cannot comment on either the Navy or Marine Corps because my focuse was only on the Army which was my service." The Army has undergone a tremendous change since the days that I entered prep school for USMA. There have been so many changes in technolgy, contracting out logistics, and the increasing presence of those with no faith, agnostics, Muslims, Buddhists, Sikhs, Wiccans, serving in the Army that that a lot of EEO, Discrimanation, Sexual Ha., Disparate Treatment, Hostile Work Environments have come to bee seen in abundance at HQ-DA.

The Army is a living thing and only the people and the places and names change. However, the demographics of this country are no longer limited to a Judeo-Christian creed as immigration and birth rates are changing the face of this country and in doing so they change the face of the Army. A good comp. might be the English Army, but substuting Hispanics, and Muslims for Gurkhas, Muslims, and Hindus.

If an Army is to be effective it has to function in harmony and, if you will, "an organizational homoeostasis." Therefore, there is no place in the Army for discrimation, fighting, disparate treatment, ethnic discrimiation of any kind; and still hope to have a kind of Lean Six Sigma Army sitll be effective. The U.S. Military takes these matters very seriously because good Soldiers are still hard to find as so much more is expected of our Soldiers than ever before. For example, the end of DADT finally became law and the program was augmented into the Marine Corps first as the Marine Corps is the smallest service.

Whether, we like it or not, we all have to respect each other and work as a team and have each others' back as we all follow given orders.

I think that free speech forums like this are great becaus they let people express both their feelings, anger, hopes, and sorrows in a "safe environment" and even through all of the harsh opinions, my own probably warped opinions that I used to keep entirely to myself, are there and written down. Somewhere in this circle of opinions lay the foundation for expression of views that lead to understanding, toleration, working out differences and keeping one's principles intact, and to a more cohesive society instead of two or more "static camps that constantly tear at each other."

Anyway, I am glad tha I am retired and already transitioning into another career that will be helping disabled veterans.

V/r,

Rat

Rat --

You are about 10 years behind me :) When I was in the US there seemed to be more religious pressure than overseas. One thing I liked about Germany. You obviously have more of a "command oriented" viewpoint that I do ... but that makes for a better discussion.

I also liked the fact that DADT was repealed. Yes, the Army has changed and it does appear to be for the better.

I've read a bit about Opus Dei -- kind of scary. While I'm not particularly religious, I admit to finding comparative religion fascinating and truly enjoyed my classes in it. There is a lot to be learned about how other cultures view the world.

I think that the biggest enemy faced in the world today is extremism -- whether political or religious (and there is a very thin line between the two). We will do much better when we can put the rhetoric aside and realize that we can work together for the common good.

Beth

Read the above why support heathenism. There is a major difference between Adult and Embryonic stem cell research but your Immoral Atheist propagandist that you follow brain wash you into thinking that it is the same and never differentiate between the Two.

Kevin Bitz should be studied, he can write and has proven he doesn't have a brain!! Another miracle.

I'll roger that. If the Catholic Church does not protect embryos there will be no new comers in the church in the third world from whom the RCC can extract their grocery money as well and "less young tight butts that drive Pope Benedict nuts."

You are entitled to your theocratic based opinions. However, a good number of Americans and Europeans agree fully with the Honorable Kevin Bitz.

V/r,

LTC Rattus, USA, ret.

haha, whos calling who brainwashed mathew??

I agree with Kevin Bitz...

Mathew,

Heathenism? A modern interpretation of Germanic paganism? What are you babbling on about. If you don't think human cloning is going to be a cause celebre you seriously misjudge fundamentalists of all religions. Eventually the Catholic Church will probably come to grips with it they have supported science for one thousand years but like all monolithic organizations change is glacial. Fundamentalist Christians and Muslims on the other hand will probably start burning research facilities and shooting scientists it is their history.

jkh

The Catholic Church has supported science for one thousand years?

The Catholic Church had Galileo put in jail for stating that the earth revolved around the sun.

could you repeat that you lost me at ..................abortion

YOu need to go to a Mental INstitution cause its all a Bunch of Mumbo JUMBO,

Science is real, REality baby.

If we can transfer our consiousness to new cloned bodies imagine how long you can live, Maybe as long as you want 5000 years might be possible.

So sayeth the invisible guy in the sky!

Matthew: Isn't it time you took Noah's Ark back to the Garden of Eden and start over again, unless of course, you fall of the end of the flat earth. If the the earth and life was created 4000 years ago, does that mean that man lived in harmony with the dinosaurs, or is all that just hearsay?

wow did you really type all that, or did someone just show you how to use 'copy and paste'?

1

Matthew: What the hell was THAT all about???

So you can quote the bible verbatim. You want a medal or something?

Boy! That was sure interesting!

Heathenism you loon is a modern interpretation of pagan Germanic traditions predating Christianity. The epistle of Barnabas was probably written in the second or third century as a refutation of Jewish influence. It told us to take most of the Torah as metaphor such as don't eat pork was don't act like a pig, Don't eat rabbit (promiscuity) no weasal eating (oral sex taboo) because weasals were thought to procreate orally. Barnabas quotes from the apochrapha and nobody knows who the hell he was instead of trying to find modern truth in the writings of someone trying to diminish the influence of judaism perhaps investigating the causes of paranoia and delusion might be time well spent.

jkh